14. SILENT SEX QUEEN: Why aren’t we talking about sex more?

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Hi, everybody.

You are in for a...

Well, I was going to say a treat, but I don't know.

You're in for an experience today.

And the experience is going to be that you are going to listen to my sister Amanda Abby and I talk about sex.

Our hard thing today that we're discussing is sex.

And what I want you to know is that we're feeling really vulnerable about this episode.

It was a hard episode for us to do,

but a really important one, I think.

I absolutely loved this conversation.

I hope you do too.

Let's go.

Hi, you guys.

Hello.

Here we are.

Here we are to talk about

sex.

Okay.

I just would notice that I forgot to put on deodorant this morning, and I just feel like this is the worst possible day to not put on deodorant because I'm already sweating.

This topic is a little sweaty for me.

How are you all feeling

as we begin this,

what is sure to be an incredibly enlightening discussion about sex star.

Well, I just asked sister how she feels about Amanda, how she feels about becoming a sex podcast star.

How do you feel, sister?

I feel like this is as close as I'm ever going to come to being a sex star.

I feel like I am

here.

I have a clipboard.

I literally have a clipboard.

I'm going to be taking a lot of notes.

I feel like

I'm coming with a student's mind is what I'm saying.

But it's so sister to bring a clipboard to sex.

Do you actually bring a clipboard to sex?

Because it feels like something you would do.

Actually, that's important.

That's like really,

Glennon, how are you approaching this conversation?

Because I'm just like, I'm right here.

Yeah, you're right.

I got nothing.

Well, I'm praying.

I'm breathing deeply.

And sister has a clipboard.

Okay.

That's very indicative of our personalities, I think.

I'm in surrender mode.

I'm in surrender.

And I'm in service mode because this is not easy for me to talk about sex.

And it's not, but so many people, so much of the pod squad asked us to do an episode about sex.

So here we are.

And it feels important because it's something that's such a huge part of our, of all of our lives in one way or another.

And the whole world gets to talk about it.

Everywhere you look, there's some company capitalizing off of women's bodies and sex.

And then the women ourselves, we find ourselves feeling very alone, I think, because we don't talk about it enough with each other.

So here we are.

Abby's actually recording in a closet.

I am in a basement bathroom.

I'm not sure what that says about me, but here we go.

Ready or not.

We're doing it.

So that's funny that you say that it's really hard for you to talk about because I feel like you've probably written 200 pages of books about it.

So

what part is hard for you?

And can you take us back to

I when you told me we were doing this episode, I was thinking about the early days of sex, like the origin story of sex for me and how that informed everything.

So

if it's cool with you, we should go back there, I think, because I think a lot of that is informed how we feel now.

Yeah.

And might I just like interrupt?

Like, I'm just going to have like a big old ill about what comes next.

Go ahead, baby.

I know.

I mean, and so we've been talking so much this week in preparation for this.

We've been negotiating, like, lovingly, like, what is it?

Because what is okay to talk about?

What is not okay to talk about?

What is just ours?

What can we share?

What can you stand me saying about my past and vice versa?

Like, nothing, but I'm being really brave and mature right now.

I know.

Especially grown-up.

Well,

I, you say, yes, you have written so many pages about sex.

And I would say that I'm always writing about what I don't understand, but desperately want to.

That's basically all that I write.

Most of my early writing in Carry On Warrior and Love Warrior was about like, what is this sex situation and why don't I grasp it?

Right.

Like, I just have never in my life felt how I thought I was supposed to feel about sex when I looked at the world and how other people were talking about how they felt about sex.

So I, the first time I had sex, I was, or sex, what the world calls sex, right?

I was in, I think, my sophomore year of high school.

I was dating a senior boy.

He was a bit of a

slut, I guess you call them.

Like he had sex with a lot of people.

So I knew I was going to be expected to have sex with him.

One day after school,

we had sex and it just, I remember just laying there and being like, this is it.

Like, I remember walk, looking around the bedroom, like looking at posts, trying to read.

This is, this is,

just reading every poster, reading every, just reading, reading, get me out of this world and experience and let me read is basically my life mantra.

So that's what I remember from that moment.

And then it being over and being like, okay, I guess that was like nothingness, nothingness, no feeling, no anything.

And then I remember over time,

the, we would go have sex and after school or whenever, but his parents were always home.

So we would have sex in the basement laundry room on a cement floor.

Oh my gosh.

Sexy.

Yeah.

And that was it.

Like that was the whole thing.

And so

what I can tell you about my relationship from sex from that moment and on until, well, until I met Abby, was that I always felt like sex was something that I had to do

to

make the boy or man I was with

happy, satisfied.

Like it was like this maintenance thing.

Like if you want to have a car

and you want the car to get you around and function the way it's supposed to, you have to have an oil change every once in a while or it will break down.

That's how I felt about sex.

Like it was this thing that I had to do to keep a relationship flowing and to keep the guy happy.

But I always felt like it was very impersonal to me.

Like I could have been anyone.

Like I was a scratching post for a cat,

right?

That I was just like this thing

being used as a means to an end.

So good times.

Yeah.

Anyone else have a better story

about sex?

I feel like it's funny because I feel like I talk to a lot of people who kind of have

regrets about having sex with too many people or feeling like they were

kind of

giving themselves away to too many folks.

It seems like maybe you might be describing that you weren't getting any value out of that exchange.

But it seems like in all of the contexts, it's this idea of exchange of value.

Like they're like as if sex is this currency

and we are exchanging things for it.

So, you were bartering this idea of like keeping them around.

This is something you had to do.

For me, I feel like I had the exact same paradigm, except for

my reaction to that value structure was the opposite.

Like, I,

and it even comes through in these things, in the way we talk about sex.

Save yourself for marriage, right?

Like, like there is this account that you are either saving

or spending.

Yes, giving it up.

Yes, you're saving it or you're you're spending it and for me

i've i feel like my regret when i look back is

i should have had more sex like that

i mean like when i think about it if i hadn't i place like as if i was spending myself and losing my value like if i didn't have sex with people

I got to preserve A, I wouldn't be able to, like, I super remember in seventh or eighth grade hanging out with this group of guys they were talking about this girl that one of them had made out with and she had they were talking about she had hair on her nipples okay like on her breasts which don't we all have that um 100 well okay yes same i'm the i'm the hairiest mammal in the history of

i'm not a freaking the answer thought like or whatever those like the chin the i mean abby walks over and pulls chin hairs out

that's what a good partner does come Come on.

If you can't see it, then somebody's got to be able to help you.

Okay, sorry, sister.

Nipple hairs.

No, returning to nipple hairs.

Well, so yes, if you are like us, you have that.

But I remember being so mortified and thinking, oh, I get it.

Like, if you spend yourself in that situation, you are now just like exchanged on the market.

Like, you, everyone gets to say whatever they want about you.

That's what happened.

And then, and then also

like a a bunch of guys talking about the value of this particular

stock that's been traded.

And you can do damage to it by what you say to your enemies.

Correct.

And if you withhold it, then it's like that, you know, supply and demand situation where it's like the higher value you are.

And so I, as a result of that, I kind of had this idea of

not that I, that I could make myself invulnerable and keep my value high by not doing that and i look back and i just think like that sucks because there were people that like i actually loved that i didn't have sex with i mean loved in like the sure senior year of high school way but i and i think like well that's a damn shame i also think this this idea of like what we think about like we're supposed to have we're supposed to like when we get married and in our relationships with our partners have this like be Picasso at sex, like figuring out with all things and doing it.

And then we're also supposed to have these experiences of like using our paintbrushes a couple times before that.

And like, how the hell is that supposed to happen?

I don't, I think I could have gotten a lot of nice practice with some safe people.

Yeah.

And like, I wasn't even a paintbrush.

I was just a canvas.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think what's interesting is you guys are both talking about, I think it's hilarious that we can bring in economics and the metaphor of finance to sex, you know, commodities, women,

what our bodies are worth.

And you both kind of chose different paths.

But I think it's really interesting.

It's like the grasses sometimes look greener on the other side, but it not, it's not always the case, you know.

I mean, sister, I think it's so interesting that you wish you had more sex.

And Glennon, do you wish you had less sex?

Okay.

No, but I, okay, I swear to you that I don't think I I can answer this question in front of you.

I think,

I mean, no, I do not.

Let me ask you this.

Okay.

We'll get into the,

okay.

And you can, you can not answer if, if you feel uncomfortable.

Okay.

Um, do you wish you had been with women before me?

I do.

Okay.

I'm not going to say I wish I had been, I'm sweating so freaking much straight up.

Okay.

I don't, but I, first of all, I want to say that I wish I wasn't.

Whatever happens in this podcast, I don't want it to be used against me later.

That's fine.

Maybe we should phrase it like this.

Do you wish your paintbrush had been able to practice

making beautiful art?

I think I would have perhaps hated sex less if I were not having sex with completely the wrong gender my entire life.

I mean, that is right.

Okay.

That is completely right.

But I also think that while my situation might be.

I mean, the first time, while it might be a little unusual in some ways because of my later in life lesbian experience, I

also think it's sort of universal in lots of ways.

Like when I talk to my friends who are not

gay,

a lot of them have the exact same situation, have the exact same feelings that I do, of feeling kind of used during sex, of feeling like the object during sex, not the subject, of feeling like a scratching post, of it feeling impersonal.

So, you know, the first time that I saw you, Abby,

and I think of it, you know, for a long time, I thought of it as love at first sight.

But like, what the hell does that mean?

That's kind of like weird and woo-woo.

And what, I think what I really felt was true desire for the first time.

Right.

Like I wouldn't have not known how to put that into words at the time, but I felt like, holy shit.

Like I felt like magnetized.

I felt lit up inside.

I felt tingly in like certain places.

I felt like very,

like, what is happening?

And of course, to me, that felt like a mystical experience because I hadn't had that before.

Right.

So

After having felt lit up for the first time, feeling desire, feeling alive, having on top of that struggled with sex for so long,

I started putting all of this together, right?

And as you know, or is in Untamed, I sat down with a long time trusted therapist that had been Craig and I's marriage therapist for a very long time.

So knew all of the struggle.

And I sat down and I basically burst into tears and I said, here's the deal.

I feel so dead during sex.

I feel used every time.

I feel like I'm just abandoning myself.

I feel rage.

This is after all the infidelity.

I feel angry during sex.

I feel, and now I'm having this experience of feeling desire for this woman.

And

I'm wondering if it's all just starting to make sense, you know?

And she looked at me and said, okay,

all of these feelings are, they're nothing, none of this is real.

It's the first thing she said.

None of this is real.

And I said, wait, but are you sure?

And,

you know, if I can't be with this other person, then I know that at least I can never have sex with my husband again.

And she said, okay,

well, have you considered giving blowjobs?

A lot of women consider blowjobs to be less intimate.

So maybe you could handle that.

I mean, what kind of

this person needs to be fired from the world of therapy, A, and then B,

A lot of people don't consider blowjobs to be less intimate.

Listen.

I know, but babe, I needed that moment looking back on it.

Like I needed something that dramatic to wake me up to the fact that the whole world is constantly just telling women, your feelings aren't real,

shut up and just keep giving the freaking blowjobs in one way or another.

Because all of it, not just sex, but all of it, but we can get back to sex, is really just about keeping him happy.

Whatever happy means.

Power.

Your job is just to not rock the boat, to not assert your own desire, to not assert any of it, and just keep things running smoothly, keep status quo,

right?

And I needed that.

I needed to see it that

clearly.

And I mean,

my life sex, not just my sex philosophy, but my life philosophy since that moment has been: as God as my witness, I will never give a blowjob again.

Not at all,

not in bed, not in a relationship, not in politics.

Like, never again.

Every time someone pats me on the head and says, just keep giving blowjobs, that's my

get the hell out of the signal.

Let's be, let's be real.

Like, that is for sure.

Yeah, literally, it's for sure.

Abby's like, cosign, cosign.

Also, in a sex-positive way, clearly, this is also a metaphor.

Glennon is also never going to give blowjobs, but there's, you know, if that's your partner, there's nothing wrong with a good old-fashioned blowjob.

Oh, I have a dear friend who

had a dear friend who loves giving blowjobs.

I was stunned.

Yeah, I thought she was lying.

I thought she was oppressed and needed to be saved.

Like I was at an episode of Handmaid's Tale, and she was like, No, I swear to you.

Yeah, I know.

I do not begrudge a blowjob.

No, but you should not do what you don't want to do.

This is correct.

This is correct.

I just want to affirm those.

I think that with this therapist, I think that I remember when you called me, Glennon, and you told me what she said.

And I remember feeling like, oh,

well, this is unbelievable.

But what you did with this information, first of all, know your therapist and know if they are good at their jobs because they are telling you literally how to live your life and know when bad information is being handed to you, right?

Yeah, as a person who loves therapy.

We love therapy.

It can be dangerous.

It can be dangerous.

It can be dangerous.

Yeah, but here's the thing.

What I think is so cool about this, this is, I think, in some ways, what really sparked Untamed.

Like, this was like, it was like a real awakening for you.

And quite honestly, it was the, um, it was the craziest shit I had ever heard.

And, and

I think that allowed you to feel like we could go down this path together because it was like, this was such horrible information.

Anyways, I digress.

Yeah, I, no, I agree with you.

It was so clarifying.

It was so clarifying to me.

And, you know, then a lot happened.

We had a lot of things to walk through before the first time you and I had sex.

Yep.

And that day, I flew to LA

from Florida

and

came to a hotel room where you were.

Oh, my God.

Are you okay right now?

Yeah, I'm just getting a little

embarrassed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

My little cheeks are like.

I know your sweet little cheeks.

But what I will say, we talked about whether or not we could talk about this, okay?

And we're telling this story vaguely for an important reason because

that moment of walking into that hotel room knowing we were gonna have sex for the first time.

By the way, I had never even kissed a girl before, and we had just like dismantled our entire lives for this moment.

So it would have really sucked if it didn't go well.

You knew you were going to have sex?

Oh, stop.

We've been talking about it every freaking hour.

Okay.

That's a high-pressure situation.

Like, what if that?

Oh, God.

We hadn't been in the same room.

We hadn't even touched.

She has never kissed a girl.

I'm like, there's a lot of, a lot of things that are like on the riding on the line for this.

Right.

And also, there was this thing

where,

and I don't think, I haven't talked to anybody about this.

Okay.

You and I, Abby, have talked about it.

Okay.

I'm like, ah, no, no, no, no.

We should go down this road then.

No.

So there was this vibe in our early relationship, which was Abby had been used to like freaking being the sex tutor for straight girls.

Right?

Okay.

I'm sorry.

Is that wrong?

Did I say that wrong?

Yeah.

I mean, let's...

I'm going to say it differently.

That is

a lot of women have.

A lot of straight women feel confused by me

because

I'm telling you, this is

true.

Do you think I don't know?

Yeah, a lot of straight women have come to me and they're like, hmm, I feel confused by you because I'm very attracted to you and you're also a woman and I've never had that before.

And so.

Okay, does that still happen?

Because I need to go stab a bunch of people.

Is that still happening?

No, I

have sending energy now, so it's fine.

Okay.

Yeah, so that's

how I would say it.

So I,

for me, having this sexual awakening, feeling sexual and desiring, not just worrying about being desired, but feeling desiring for the first time was really important to me.

And so the way I want to say this is it was important to me to

walk into that hotel room and be not the object of that sexual experience, but be the subject of that sexual experience.

So

that was a surprise to me.

That was a surprise to me.

Yes.

For sure.

I did not know that that was going to happen.

Right.

So So Abby thought, I think she figured because of the way things are usually structured in like lesbian culture, which there's like...

Well, I mean, look at us.

Like, I am more masculine.

I'm, I'm what, in the lesbian world, what you would call butch.

You're more feminine.

And so, like, two plus two equals four, right?

Like, people would assume that you walk into this room and that I would do all the business.

And that's how it would happen.

But that is not how it ended up.

That's not what happened, sister.

That is not what happened.

We're here to tell you first.

We're here to tell you first.

It was very important for me to be untamed in that moment.

For me,

I wanted to like

take over, not just like, but I wanted to for myself, but also for Abby, you know, I wanted her to know that like, that I, that I desired her.

And it was.

amazing.

I think it was the moment that everything changed for me sexually because for the first time, I felt like I wasn't just acting.

You were a sexual actor instead of acting.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I wasn't like trying to recreate some freaking scene I'd seen in a movie a million times.

I wasn't saying the script that women are supposed to say from porn culture.

I wasn't arching my back the way I was.

Like, is this what it looks like in the movie?

Like I wasn't playing a role.

I was actually there and just responding

however my body.

and emotions

wanted to respond.

And I know that a lot of people out there who are listening

have their roles in their sexual identity, their sexual lives, their sexual relationships.

They vary, right?

Like

you have folks that are,

what did you call it?

The pillow princesses?

Pillow princess.

We learned this in the comments on our Instagram when we asked about what people wanted to know about sex.

And I think what was really interesting about this first moment for us is that I didn't know that I needed to feel like

I could be,

and for lack of a better word, handled and taken care of in a sexual way rather than being the one that always takes care of.

Like, I, I don't know, I just felt like, oh, this is so different, you know, and so special.

Um, and I didn't expect to want that, you know, because the way that not only the way that the world would assume or perceive the way I am sexually, but like, it just felt good to like be taken care of.

And

I don't know.

Yeah.

And it felt good to be like an amazingly powerful sex queen as I was in that room.

Oh my God.

There we go.

We got the title of this episode.

Next

sex queen.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I'll, I'll give you that.

I'll, I'll say it.

I'll be the first to say it.

Sex queen.

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Okay, so what is,

what do you attribute the difference is?

Because there's, as you said, so many people have had that experience you had growing up, even if they're not like, oh, I'm gay later on.

What do you attribute the difference is between like being with a woman versus being with a man in terms of how the whole

sexual ecosystem works.

Okay, so you know how sometimes when you're in a, in a conversation with a man and the man just like keeps talking, like really you just have to, if you're with like a man splaner, right?

And really in order to make it through the conversation, all you really have to do is like nod, smile,

not offer anything because they're not going to listen anyway.

Like just, just make it, make him feel good about himself by making your face look like you're interested, but it requires nothing from you.

So you can like basically go dead inside.

Okay.

So that's my, my, like 80% of my conversations with men.

Um, and then when you're talking to a woman who's like really emotionally, has a high emotional IQ and a high social IQ, and you are like, in a conversation, and then she's like asking you questions, and it's like intense and like

making you think and growing you right and it requires all of you and it's it's awesome but also exhausting right

those are the differences of sex and it's like sex with a guy you really just have to keep smiling make them feel this is like such a horrific generalization can can the listener just stay with me because this is well this is what i was

i was just gonna say disclaimer this is your experience my experience yeah right right right and then with the woman it's with abby obviously she's the only woman i've ever been with it's like a very it's a conversation that requires a lot of you and it's it grows me and it's deeper and it's like transformative and it requires a lot more of me it's exhausting

yeah

Okay, so some people probably think, okay, this is like before and after.

This is, it sucked, and now it's this idyllic world.

But do you still,

you must still have like sex challenges and dealing with things.

I mean, you're a couple

years in.

So what, what are those?

And do you think they're universal

to like men and women?

I'm going to let you answer first so that I know where we're going with this before I answer.

Yeah, I think that our biggest challenge

is two parts.

One, I think that frequency is the challenge, but but actually, I think our bigger challenge is the worrying about the frequency.

So

Glennon is new to lesbian culture.

And actually,

she taught me at the comments,

since you asked for what people wanted to hear on this episode, you have taught me this thing called lesbian deathbed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's so they can you tell

people?

Yes, if our podcast listener, you guys, you are teaching us so much.

Okay.

Yes.

So we just sit and we read every single one of your comments and we read aloud to each other all the emails you send and we listen to every single voicemail together because we learn so much from you all.

So lesbian deathbed, it's like lesbians.

meet and then they fall deeply, deeply in love in four minutes and then they have so much sex for like two weeks and then they and then the lesbian bed is where sex goes to die like nobody ever makes out again and it's because

like imagine in a male female relationship it's it's it's again a generalization but the male is usually the one who like wants to have sex and yeah it's poking the bear like hey can we do this

we have no poker yeah like we are both like let's just snuggle yeah literally literally and figuratively you have no poker okay i know why this is you guys i know this because this is a thing.

For, okay, so for,

for,

in my relationship, I

never

am an initiator of sex.

Like, John's like, let's have sex.

And then I'm always like, uh,

and then we have sex.

And I say, I literally say, that was a good idea.

Yeah.

Great idea.

So

it's, it is,

it is, but there's a thing.

Okay.

So there's a thing called spontaneous desire and then there's a thing called responsive desire.

And spon, and spontaneous desire is when your desire starts in your mind and then goes to physical.

Okay.

And 75% of men have primary spontaneous desire.

So they're literally thinking about it.

Then they get the physical desire.

And that's when they're like, poke, poke.

Hey, want to make out?

Women, on the other hand, only 15% of women have primary spontaneous desire.

So that's the, so that is 85% of women are responsive desire, meaning I'm not thinking about it.

I'm not, I don't have a mind to physical.

I have physical to mind.

So you need the initiator.

to get you to the physical space to even have the desire.

So if neither of you are getting there, you're quite literally not getting there.

And it's totally normal.

Yeah, and thus we get to lesbian deathbed.

This is like when the love hormone wears off in our brain, this is why that like spontaneous urge just goes away.

And then maybe it just never is because that's how we're built.

Yeah.

It's so interesting.

Does the spontaneous person, does it have to be a person?

is my question.

Like, I'm thinking about writing an erotic novel.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Because love to write about things that I have no freaking.

Sex queen.

Sex queen.

Because I have a sex freaking queen.

So I want to write like a lesbian, clear,

like 50 Shades of Gay situation.

Oh my God.

Amazing.

But

what I'm saying is, can the impetus, can the poking be if you don't have a man?

It could maybe be a book.

Okay, so is that correct?

Like, is there, could that get people going?

It's what I'm asking.

So there's two separate things.

There is the desire, the way that your desire manifests.

That's in the spontaneous or responsive.

Like what, what gets you to the place of basically.

arousal was does it start mind and then go to physical or or physical and then the mind but then you have your whole to answer your question you have this whole structure in your brain that is a dual control model that that regulates your

um

your desire and that has accelerators and it has brakes so basically any input you're getting around you if it smells if it like you said a book totally if it's um if it's just like physical things as if things you're imagining those are accelerate though any of those can be accelerators but also any of those can be breaks so that's why when you're in bed at night at the the end of the day and you and you're staring at your to-do list that you have to to do before you go to bed, and you're staring at 14 piles of unfolded laundry, you might have a lot of the accelerators going on, but your brakes are stronger than that.

So, they're both always happening at the same time.

Also, why, what's the best sex?

Everyone say it with me: hotel sex, right?

Because you're in a hotel,

there's literally nothing around you to remind you of all the shit you have to do, of all of the,

so

it's your, your breaks are off, and that's why you can be more responsive to the accelerator.

I love this.

Everyone has both.

And it's literally how our brains work.

And it's also why women, going back to our caretaker episode, if the woman is the carrier in the mind of the emotional mental load of the family, the constant caretaker going.

That is why a lot of times we will have more breaks than the partner.

Well, and it goes, sorry, go.

No, no, go, go, go, go.

No, I was just going to say it also goes back to the economic model because there's evolutionary reasons why women in heterosexual situations have way more breaks than men.

I mean, when you think about it, men had an entirely no-risk high-profit situation with their accelerators.

Their breaks are not going at all because they have evolutionary reasons.

They're going to reproduce.

They're going to have guaranteed orgasm because that's how sex is defined.

Women have all of the risk because of, you know, complications with pregnancy, bearing children, potential death, all the things evolutionarily, right?

And

we also have low profit, right?

Because

socially, there's all of that stigma attached to women with having of the sex.

So our breaks are evolutionarily, socially, and also with the construct of how our lives are structured constantly on, right?

So we're going to say,

yeah, I think that just to go back to the frequency a little bit, because sister, I think that what you just shared is like so intense and true and real.

But one thing that Glennon and I talk about probably the most are like, mostly is like, are we having enough sex?

Like, what is

enough sex?

And it's not even like the actual frequency, but Glennon, you coming from a heteronormative life, marriage, that you would do this for as it was an oil change to make sure that the guy doesn't, you know, stray or to make sure that

you're keeping in good faith with him.

And for women, it's like, I, I'm not as worried about it, I think, as you are because I've been in a lesbian life and a culture for longer.

And also, I feel like there are seasons to sex.

You know, I think that, of course,

never, not once have I had sex with you and been like, gosh, that wasn't worth it.

What a waste.

No, never.

Every single time.

Sister, I'm like, you know, like, that was a good idea.

Yeah, we should do that more.

Yeah.

You know?

But I also think like we're in the midst of like teenage years and work and we've got something.

And then at night, you, I see what you do all day long.

And I look over and like, I know that we're both exhausted.

But that's a difference.

That's a difference.

I never was in a relationship with a human being before you who would look at me and think, that woman is so tired.

And what she wants more than anything is to close her little eyes and go to sleep.

And so the last thing I'm going to do is bother her.

Require something.

That's a difference between

what I want to say to you about men and women.

Right.

That's huge because it also goes back to the whole idea of like, if you're

at the worst of times, right?

At the worst of times, it feels like, are you freaking serious?

Like you see me, right?

Like you see me

dead.

I am, I am, I have literally army crawled my way into this bed and I have not shown myself one ounce of affection, but here you are with your hands wide open, just asking me to pour out a little more.

Like, I mean,

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All right, well, let's let's finish this.

We got to define what is sex.

What do you define sex as, Glennon and Amanda?

Okay,

this is hard, but it feels like

important in terms of

so much of what we talk about on this podcast is

that

all of our problems are because of the picture in our mind of how things are supposed to be.

Right.

So we allow culture to define what something is for us, right?

Whether it's like body love or family or gender or beauty or sex.

And then we compare what we have in our real lives to that arbitrary cultural standard, which is almost always based on commerce and power.

Right.

So I do think that while I'm not going to like nail this answer, that it is a super important question for us to begin to ask ourselves, right?

Like, well, what is sex for us?

Because I can tell you that the cultural definition of sex, which is, I guess, penetration, ejaculation, like I don't know exactly what orgasm for for a

man.

It never felt to me.

The reason why I didn't understand it

is because nothing magical was happening for me there.

Right.

There was no transcendence, no magic, no.

So, what I would say

is that, you know, Abby often says that sex is something that happens all day.

That like when I bring her coffee in the morning, that's sex to her.

Okay.

For me,

that is not sex because that's like an act of service.

Right.

And that's something that I could do for anyone.

I could bring anyone coffee.

Right.

For me, sex is like this place that my mind and body and whatever the spirit is like goes to, visits.

Like I can tell when I'm there.

Okay.

And for me.

It does happen sometimes like when almost always when we're in bed doing sexual things.

Eventually we get, I get to this place where I'm completely surrendered, where I'm like completely defenseless, where I'm not acting, where I'm all fully present, right?

And then I can tell you are too.

And it's like this mutual surrender where we could totally annihilate each other because we have no defenses up and it's something that only happens between the two of us.

But there are also these moments.

So like every once in a while, you're in the kitchen and you're cooking and I like walk by trying to look busy because when you're cooking, I try to look busy because I feel guilty that you're cooking, but I also don't want to help.

Okay.

So I just like walk around a lot.

And

you will stop.

And if there's like music on, sometimes you'll stop and look at me in this way that is very, you look serious and you look a little bit like predatory.

And it's like immediately all of me is like right

there in that sex place.

It feels like,

like, I don't know, my insides, like,

and

I,

it's sex i don't know it's like and and the thing is that i would never allow any moment like that to happen with another human being

so i think like the sex is for me has a lot to do with exclusivity right it has to do with i will only allow myself to go to this place

with you but it's talking

good job on talking just then like all of that that was really good

well done sister what about you what is sex to you?

I feel like it's important to say, and because I feel like a lot of this conversation has been framed, and a lot of the way that I feel like my friends and I talk to each other about sex is how do you,

oh my gosh, it's, I'm always so tired, and I don't want to have sex, and how do I deal with this?

And he always wants to, or whatever it is.

And I just feel like

there is

no one ever talks about the opposite problem,

which is when you feel like you're,

when you have been sexually abandoned by your partner.

And it's a very,

I think it's probably one of the loneliest places to be because

when you're

which is what happened to me in my first marriage, that

my husband did not want to have sex with me.

And so

I think there's this whole kind of

this whole

way of being in the world.

When you're a woman, your job is to be like

pursued, and that the person you're with always wants to have sex with you, and that you just have to work it into your life.

But no one ever talks about the woman who does want to have sex and to have a partner that doesn't want to sleep with you and be in a world in which everyone else is talking about

how much of a hassle it is to have to navigate their husband's desire for them,

to admit that you have a husband who has no desire for you is a very, very lonely, doubly lonely place to be.

And so I just want to say that, even though it's a little bit embarrassing to say,

because I just have been there and it's

lonely and hard.

And I think that it's important to recognize for there

if you are listening to this and you are in that place that I was also in that place and it is very hard to feel like there isn't something very, very wrong with you when you think

that

that you're It's a special slice of hell to be in a marriage when you don't, when the person doesn't want you.

It's much, much, having been in both places, it is much, much easier and more socially acceptable to be a woman who doesn't want to have sex with her husband than to be a wife whose husband doesn't want to have sex with them.

So

that I just want to say that I think I wonder if it's happening to a lot of people, but it is lonely and no one talks about it.

Well, thank you for talking about it.

But I think what I'm trying to figure out is just what are my sexual values?

Because I feel like I have grown up and

I assigned these values to sex that I don't think work for me

and are working for my life going forward about like, it's this, you know, this

worth thing that is transferred and go and, you know, I just want to live in a world where

it's like,

you know, we just talked a few days, a few weeks ago about in the body episode about the worst thing that a woman could do is let herself go.

Like, don't let yourself go.

Don't let yourself go.

And then, and then in sex, we're like, why can't you let yourself go?

Just let yourself go.

So, so we're living in this, in this world where we're constantly expected to do both things.

Yes.

It's like the control yourself, control yourself, control yourself.

Women, you control your hair, control your voice, control your anger, control your, and then all of a sudden

let go of control in bed.

Be wild.

Like that idea of, well, I want a lady in the streets and a devil in the sheets.

Like, can't do all that.

Can't do all that.

Yep.

Yep.

But it's like that thing, sister, where it's like the credit card machine that stresses me out every time.

Where it's like, do not remove card.

Do not remove card.

Do not remove card.

Remove card.

Remove card.

Right freaking now.

I sweat.

It's just that change of what my value is as a woman.

Yeah.

It's one thing outside the bedroom and then it has to be something completely different inside the bedroom.

Well, I kind of, I, I kind of disagree with you guys in this.

I mean,

good.

Yeah, for me, I think that sex is happening all day long for me.

Well, that's unfortunate to hear.

No.

I'm never letting you leave that.

How many times a week?

She's like, how many times a day?

It's happening between me and you all day long.

Okay, good, good, good.

Got it.

So all day long, right?

Like the beginning of the day.

Like, when you, the reason why I think, like, when you hand me that coffee in the morning, I don't let people do things for me.

That's true.

At all.

I do things for myself.

So, when I let you do something for me, it's because I do know that I want to be taken care of on some level.

And that is the beginning.

So, when you talk about the Venn diagram, I just think that my Venn diagram is a little bit bigger of that spot of intimacy that we kind of talk about sex.

So, it's,

this might sound so weird, and I'm sure people have this fetish, but like when you take a bite of the food that I've made you and you tell me how you like it, I love that.

Like that is like, that makes my brain light up.

You know, when you hand me the coffee and when we have a day and we come back together and we talk about the thing that happened in the day, like those are things that, foreplay wise, that are like getting my brain to remember, you know, that we don't have to be lesbian deathbeds.

We don't have to operate in that way.

So, it's connection to you.

It's any sort of real connection.

Because I believe that the pinnacle is this place that you talk of, G.

Like, the pinnacle to get to the act of sex

is this other realm, right?

But the conversation that has to happen from morning until that moment of the act, that is very real and very sex to me as well.

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Well, I want to ask sister one more question and then we'll get to our next right thing.

I want to ask you.

We talked about, well, we talked about, you know, our sex challenges, which I would say is we are, I am constantly worried that we're not having enough sex.

When I told Abby about lesbian deathbed, she said, I've never heard of that before.

That's so interesting.

And I explained it and she said these words, oh, I guess I just didn't know that that was called lesbian deathbed because I just thought that was life.

That's literally what she said to me.

So true.

But honestly, I mean, we were at a, at a, like this retreat thing and there was a sex therapist there.

And every, she, the sex therapist I talked to, she said, the first thing everyone asks her is, what's enough?

What's enough?

Am I in trouble?

Is this in trouble?

Like, what's the number?

What's the number?

So So I have no answers for that.

I just know everybody's worried about it.

But can you tell us, like, what are your

sex challenges?

Like, when you think about Erin John or whatever, what do you think?

What do you worry about?

I mean,

I think I, before

I read

Nagoski's book, Come As You Are, which everyone I think should read when she's the one who talked about the dual control and the the responsiveness and stuff.

Before I learned about the responsive desire, I was thinking there was something seriously wrong with me that I didn't have that kind of spontaneous, oh, I can't wait to jump in the sheets thing.

Um, I, so that

I thought, why am I not initiating like half the time?

And would, is that a problem?

Is that a lack of general desire?

Is that so?

I think the frequency

is

a situation too.

Like, I think everyone is pretty worried about about like, what is the, am I having enough sex?

What does this indicate about relationships?

I think on the like letting yourself go thing, I just don't, same as I look back on growing up and like what I feel like I should have done differently, I'm wondering what, what is 80-year-old me gonna look back on now and be like, why the hell didn't you?

You know, like, like, if I really could just let myself go, like, what, what part of the universe

am I missing because of me?

Like, I actually have a very generous, ridiculous, awesome partner.

Like, praise be to God.

I like having sex with him very much.

But, like, this whole idea of like,

I can't talk during sex.

I can't.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

Me neither.

I am like, I don't know.

I am the most, I can talk to anyone on the street.

I can tell you exactly how I feel.

I'm given directions and tell give I'm like commanding the ship all day.

What is that?

So I'm just like that.

I'm asking like, why?

I don't know.

It drives Abby crazy.

Tell the truth.

It does drive you crazy.

Well, I just don't understand it.

Like we trust each other the most and we're doing the most intimate thing and then you just go silent.

And we're both professional speakers.

Well, I mean, look, you like to talk.

We like our whole relationship is talking.

Except for that.

And then we get into sex and you don't say a word i i can't even like i can't even respond no like i can't i'm just like

no i'm like every once in a while i say to my own brain okay i feel like you should moan or something right now and then i'll be like

no see that makes me feel sick because i'm ready to moan when i'm doing something i know that's requiring a moan.

This is vulnerable.

No, I don't know.

I know, but like, why do, like, here's the thing.

I don't understand this.

Like, I, this is no judgment because I'm sure that

layers and layers upon why this is the case.

But I feel like there is

a lack of trust with yourself.

Yeah.

And that makes me feel like you don't trust me.

That, like,

something missing.

I think it's an inhibition.

I think, and it is a level of

vulnerability and just

discomfort that really doesn't have to do with the other person.

It has to do with like, you know, it's like a mind-body connection.

And I've gotten to the place where I can like make myself totally

vulnerable in body.

And as you said, Glendon, like give up that and like actually reach this place where I come outside of my brain, which is the only time where I can come outside of my brain in my entire life.

But then the idea of reactivating my brain and bringing it to that spot, I'm like,

what?

I don't even know how to do.

I literally don't know how to do that.

I've just disconnected my brain for the first time since the last time we had sex.

And now I'm supposed to fuse them back together or something.

To remember sentences and say them.

And by the way, I only know a couple sentences about sex.

You know, what else is there?

It's like, that feels good.

Keep going.

Faster, slower.

That's all I've got.

Like, I don't have a bunch of

script ideas.

But even saying those words you just said,

she doesn't sweating.

I am sweating at the idea.

She doesn't say that.

She thinks that.

I say that feels good.

I've said that several times.

I remember each time I was very proud of myself.

Oh, God.

I don't know.

Can someone tell us what that's about?

I don't understand how powerful, assertive people

don't it's like the most intimate thing that you can do and to not have

the ability.

I mean, I think that, look, I love you both so much and you guys are allowed to be however you are in your sexual experiences.

But I think it would be really,

I think it's a control thing.

Yeah.

I think it's like a deep, deep down there, like a need to, a vulnerability to like stay, to not be

made

embarrassed or something.

Yeah, maybe it's embarrassing.

It's, it's, maybe it's embarrassing.

No,

no, something.

No, no.

Do you know what feels a little bit embarrassing?

Is for your partner to be doing sexual activity on you and there to be no response.

That's

also embarrassing.

That's also embarrassing.

Oh, God.

Oh, God.

Okay.

The subtitle of this

episode is Sex Queen.

Sex is embarrassing.

Silent.

I didn't say I was a loud queen.

Silent sex queen.

Silent Sex Queen is the name of this new novel that I'm working on.

Silent Sex Queen embarrasses her partner.

But also, you know, it's important to have things to work on.

And this is a category that looks like

we're not perfect.

Okay, y'all.

Let's go on to the next right thing.

We have so so many amazing sex questions that we're going to save them all until the next episode.

And I'm

dying to hear our answers.

Our next right thing is this.

We want

everybody

to think about

what is

sex.

Okay?

Because we really believe that

the distance between our real life experience and our real life desires and what the world holds up as what sex is and should be, that the distance between those two is where all of our pain is.

So

I want everybody to think about if you weren't, if it wasn't based on like pleasing someone else or it wasn't based on servicing your relationship,

if it had only to do with yourself,

what is sex to you

and also

i think maybe they yeah i think also maybe they should have this conversation with the person that they might be in a sexual relationship with at some point i love that idea i mean isn't it amazing that we can be in sexual relationships with people for decades and never sit down and talk about this

like what is sex what makes you come alive in that way what makes you go dead what

takes you to that place?

What are your accelerators?

What is sex to you?

What are your breaks?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good.

So let's think about this week, that this week.

I would like to end this episode by saying

that if we can do what we just did, Amanda and Abby, we can do anything.

Okay.

We.

can do

hard things,

which actually suddenly sounds very sexual to me, and I'm going to try to unthink.

I'm going to try to unthink about that forever.

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