Jerrod Carmichael Knows He’s Cringe and Likes It

it goes the other way around like i wouldn't want like my mom showing me a picture of the guy she's dating in underwear oh here's the dude trevor what do you think yeah i'm willing to listen to whatever you want to share with me and i have always been that are you willing to listen to somebody not being willing to listen to that yeah maybe but you know here's you know, here's the thing. When my grandmother was alive,

my granddad died and she got remarried

to somebody that was questionable at best.

And the whole family, being respectful,

didn't want to say anything.

Like, she was in her 70s and this is her decision

and just happy she found love.

She's happy with Sylvester. And I'm the only one in the family that's just like, no, no, no, grandma, who is this nigga? Like, what's going on? And the family loved it because I'm saying the thing that you're not supposed to say.
I like that. They love when I do it for them.
No, I hear what you're saying. They love when I do it for them.
I'm doing it for me now. You're listening to What Now? The podcast where I chat to interesting people

about the conversations taking over our world. This week, we're talking to my longtime friend and fellow stand-up comedian, Gerard Carmichael.
In 2022, Gerard shocked the world with the revelation that his name was in fact Rathaniel. He also came out as gay.
On the same stage, on that same night. That performance won him an Emmy.
And now, he's back. Gerard just released a series called The Gerard Carmichael Reality Show.
It's exactly what it sounds like. Cameras follow Gerard around through some of the most intimate moments of his life.
He starts off confessing feelings of attraction to his good friend, who you may know, Tyler, the creator. He tries to confront his dad about the lasting effects of a long time affair and a secret family.
And he pushes his religious mother on her inability to accept his sexuality. Gerard invites his audience into all of it.

And I mean all of it. It's a conversation about how shame can overtake us, whether being public about something is the same as being honest about it, and how to fight for the love we think we deserve.
It's a really special one, and I hope you'll enjoy.

This is What Now? with Trevor Noah. keep your feet in a more natural position so you can move how you were designed to.
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Try Ultra for yourself with a free 30-day trial and free shipping at ultrarunning.com. Gerard Carmichael.
Hi, Trevor. Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for having me. This is wild and sudden.
It is wild and sudden, which I actually like sometimes. There's an element of you still being curious about what you're having the conversation about.
Yeah, no, I, I, well, I wanted to talk to you because you're smart and I trust you and I can speak freely. Oh, thank you.
Like I value like these types of conversations more and more every day. Okay.
So let's, let's start speaking about that. I remember coming to LA, driving down sunset and then seeing a massive billboard of you in your underwear, tighty whiteys.
Yeah. And it's weird when it's, I mean, tighty whiteys on their own with like a personal billboard.
It it's double weird when someone you know yeah because i'm like what is happening why they were extra extra tight because i was putting on a suit for the emmys so it was like the extra it's like not even the everyday underwear it's like the extra underneath tuxedo pants the tuck yeah yeah seamless tuck in seamless tuck in tighty whiteys yeah those were were those the emmys that you won yeah congratulations again thank you very much you left so i couldn't say congrats to you at the emmys you like won the emmy and you ran away yeah i left immediately why i want nothing to do with the rest of it i won it was a high it was great nothing to do i i'm never around like do you go to the part when you host the grammys do you go to the parties and you're at the event and stuff I I try but I miss them every year oh okay so I'll because I'll do the Grammys and then afterwards I'll go and thank everybody debrief change and then by the time I get to the after parties they're all done oh yeah yeah you know the reason I ask you about like the award shows and what you do and everything there's few people i know of who are lovers of um art and entertainment as much as you are yeah like you you're like a film buff you're a music buff you are a tv buff you you have like a broad palette so i i wanted to know why you wanted to make a reality show because i'll be honest when i saw that i was like that doesn't seem like gerard yeah you you seem like the antitheses make a reality show? Because I'll be honest, when I saw that, I was like, that doesn't seem like Gerard. Yeah.
You seem like the antitheses of a reality show. Why make...
Well, first, I've been doing all these... Like, my stand-up became really personal.
My stand-up started being me solving personal problems on stage. I would go out on stage with a problem, usually sparked from a conversation or a text or a conversation I needed to have or was afraid to have.
And I would talk about it with the audience. And all after my last special, after Rathaniel, where I came out through stand-up, I started doing that with other problems in my life.
And I was trying to figure out a show

like, all right, well, what would a show be that's true to me, something that could keep my attention, something that I thought was funny and interesting. And I started realizing all the things that I was paying attention to, like on social media, even like on television, were all things that had like a lot of humanity

and a core personal

problem.

And it was like, oh, I think I know what it is.

It's a reality show.

Like I need an excuse to solve these problems in my life.

And every episode will be a new challenge, something that I need to face, something I need to solve, something I need to confront.

And we'll just play it out. I didn't even know what the things were when we got into it.
I just knew that's what I wanted to do. I like that you say you didn't know what the things were.
Yeah. You know, you write the show, and the comedian usually writes the sitcom based on his life, based on their life.
I'd done that before, and even that episodically was like, you know, I got a lot of controversial political views out of doing an episode about Cosby.

I did an episode about mass shooting.

I did just things that caught my attention.

And so it was the same philosophy just applied to me, just applied to my actual life.

Because life starts kind of playing out episodically.

Even the aesthetic, like the aesthetic of my life, I do wardrobe changes at home alone. Like, I'm like changing like somebody's watching me all the time.
I'm like constantly like obsessed with my own aesthetic anyway. So I'm kind of living in a show.
Okay, but were you prepared for how much messiness would come? Because like, it felt like to see this is what i mean but i know you as gerard right yeah i've known you for many years we've met on the comedy scene we've done shows together and we we'd bump into each other in new york you know i mean like yeah a lot of the same show yeah but i always knew you to be somebody who was like fairly private and and i mean i definitely wouldn't have considered you messy and then the reality show starts yeah and then all of a sudden it's like gerard's in the news like dave chapelle gerard carmichael beef and i was like wait what is what is going on yeah you actually have a friend who pops into the show pretty sure certain i know who it is because of his cadence and vibes but i won't out him in that way anonymous remains anonymous anonymous comes on the show he's wearing uh we call it a ski mask? Balaclava, yeah. A balaclava ski mask.
And he basically confronts you in the first episode of the show, and he says, why are you doing this? This is intrusive. This is masturbatory.
This is not the way for you to solve these issues, you know, like in the public eye. And then towards the end of the season, we see him come back, and he comes back, and he says says i still don't understand why you would want to put this in front of people who have no interest in engaging in it honestly and anonymous is great because he's the greek chorus stating the danger and the risk of the whole idea yeah and for me okay going back to what you said about me being a private person i I was and I am.
A lot of that's rooted in trauma. A lot of that's rooted in fear of being seen.
Oh, wow. So the show was a chaotic idea.
Okay, what if I put everything I'm afraid of, everything I'm ashamed of just out there? Front and center. What if it's all out there? Then what? There is some freedom is some freedom in that like like i the way to eradicate shame is by speaking it yeah you bring it you bring it to the light yeah so so the show was a chaotic experiment in eradicating shame because i i am private but not really like i'm kind of living in a post-privacy world right now man i the the layers, I sometimes feel like you are, you know when people go to university sometimes and they'll try and do a course that's four years in one year.
Yeah, yeah. I sometimes feel like you're doing that with life right now.
Yeah. I'm just, because I'm just going to ask you all these questions like on a personal level.
Please. The first thing I need to understand is this.
Is it actually a reality show or is it a show that's done in the style of a reality show and it's like scripted out and i ask this because yeah i haven't seen a reality show shot like this i haven't seen a reality show done like this like some people have seen the clips online of tyler for instance right and there's a moment where you you're saying to tyler the creator you're going hey i had feelings for you and i told you and you called me a messy bitch and he's being very funny with it and there's the cameras and but the way it's done leaves many people wondering whether or not they're witnessing something that was captured by a reality show yeah or they're witnessing a show made in the style of a reality show which yeah yeah which you could be capable of both that's the thing yeah no it's funny i think people think that it's like uh some type of andy kaufman joaquin yeah yeah that i'm right that i'm playing no i i i'm everything i'm doing is very real i'm working with a very talented team we had goals for episodes but the goals were personal goals talk to your mom have the conversation with tyler but how it played out was how it played out we we weren't sure the cameras were just catching up to me catching up to what was happening in the moment yeah you're working with really talented people because there are moments in this show that are almost cinematic you know like if we talk about that scene with tyler for instance you know the shot that's on tyler is partially blocked off on the left side of the of the frame like you know so like yeah it looks like the camera's like hiding behind a door yeah seeing Tyler yeah and then on the camera that we're seeing you with is like the angle is weird and so you you know there's a light next to you and and there's a light between you and the two of you are eating and it's it's messy and it's do you know what I mean yeah yeah if you told me that was a scripted show i'd go like oh yeah i could see yeah it's in that conversation in particular there

were like duck blinds we we wanted to hide the camp like tyler knew there were cameras but we

hid them from view so that it could have this level of intimacy so it could be natural so we

really to eliminate performance there's still some i guess performance as it would be in that type of conversation.

But,

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it, it, it, it, it, it, that type of conversation. But it's just, again, a really thoughtful crew that has a good eye, got familiar with me, my movements.
Again, a lot of my life is naturally kind of stage directed. There's like a moment where hookups coming over and you see me like i was talking like vacuum before companies coming over and i'm like spraying lavender and i'm like moving things around that i would do that without the camera that's just how i am so the camera kind of captured a lot of my natural aesthetic let's so let's talk through it episodically uh because i think you know in a strange way this show is laid out perfectly for the conversation and i mean kudos to you and your team because it introduces us to your world in a way that would make people ask questions in like the most linear fashion so you know like the first few episodes and the first one in particular is almost us jumping in head first into this world where gerard carmichael is coming to grips with and exploring the fact that he's now openly gay.
Episode one, I'm anxious. Episode one is so much anxiety.
I was a ball of anxiety. My life was odd.
I was at this professional high and a personal low. And it was this odd combination of the two.
I'm like going to the Emmys, but like so scared and anxious about who I'm going to bring and who I'm going to be seen with. And is that a statement? Yeah, that's what I was about to say.
Are you scared because you are trying to figure out how to be outwardly gay? Yeah. At that moment in time? Well, trying to make sense of who I am.
Like, I thought I was one thing. Like, I pretended to be, or not even pretended, I tried really hard to live up to this idea that I had in my head that my parents gifted me with, that my big brother gave me, and the hood that I'm from gave me of what a man was, how a man operated.
And I saw myself as I wanted the world to see me, and that changed. I said something about myself that had the potential of changing how the world saw me.
And so looking in the mirror was, it's like, wait who wait who are you again what does this mean like what i was trying to find footing and so was it easier for you to find that footing with the cameras there because i that's what that's what blew my mind i was going what you're going through is so difficult i can't imagine what that must be like to now navigate that with cameras cameras, to me as Trevor, seems harder because I was surprised at how comfortable your hookups were. People talk about like, oh, he's sucking toes.
And I'm like, a lot of people suck toes. I just don't know if people are comfortable enough to suck toes in person.
Do you know what I mean? They weren't surprised when they walked in, I'm assuming, right? No, no, I told them. It was part of the the grinder conversation just like hey you want to it was like a regular conversation you're like i'm on a reality show i'm filming a reality show you want to be in it and people were like tell me more and i'm like yeah i mean come over but like in la i'm sure like a percentage of them i think like some of them had only fans some of them yeah like probably want to be in the industry in some way and some were just curious just what do you mean you're filming a reality show yeah but things played out pretty normally that's that's kind of what's what was great about it i think people were as comfortable as i was and so because i was like yeah cameras are here.
And then that's how they treated it.

Like, all right, well, go on. And people would ask, are we going to have sex on camera? And I'm

like, well, first I'll respond, would you? But then I was like, I don't know. People were so

prudishly shocked by the toes. I don't know if they would have handled like full on brown bunny blowjob

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when you are exploring when youjob. When you are exploring the anxiety of coming out as gay and coming out as gay when you were already well-known and coming out as gay when you're already well-known and you come from a family that is very religious and black and from the South, layer upon layer upon layer upon layer.
You have a lot going through your mind. You have a lot that we're feeling through the camera when we're watching the show.
And it feels like, I don't know if it's, I know it's self-doubt, but there's a constant theme of self-loathing. Have you worked through that? Do you still still have it is there a part of you that still judges gerard for being the thing that he's not supposed to be i'm i'm working i'm doing a lot of therapy i i do psychoanalysis uh i do four sessions a week i do two double sessions wow um I am always, especially in sex therapy, just looking in corners, like trying to get rid of shame.
Just things that sometimes not even realizing how much my actions were motivated by shame. Like until you dig, just explore your own life.
And the show is inviting people into the process. I saw that in response like oh yeah some self-hate and you know like yeah yeah of course no shit like it's a lot like and i'm trying to get rid of it you know i i i've been saying i think everybody's in the closet about something.
There's something, there's a part of you that you don't want to reveal to the world. And I'm revealing a lot, not just being gay, but a lot of things.
Like shame about my interpersonal relationships, my relationship, my family dynamic. Like I have a lot of shame around a few different things.

So I'm exploring all of that in the show.

Yeah, because in the show, you jump into a lot of sex.

And I mean a lot of sex.

It's like a montage sex scene.

Like we're not seeing the sex, but it's just like hook up, hook up, hook up, hook up,

door opening, door closing, door opening, door closing.

We're seeing all these people.

Did you always have that sexual appetite? Because that's one thing i couldn't pick up from the show was like as gerard have you always been insatiable or was this a new thing because now you're exploring this this sexuality that you've been suppressing for so long or i i think i i have had a high libido like my boyfriend i talked about the fact that i like i used to sleep with a of women, and I'm not bi, but that's just funny. I'm like, man, that was just a libido playing out, I guess.
How did I do that for years? And then there was a long period of time when I first moved to LA that I just suppressed all of it. I was able to focus on work.
I was in a new city trying to understand my craft and doing mics and shows and writing and just all this work for a few years where it was just completely off the table. Then I was having sex to be seen, hooking up with girls, but then also exploring what I really wanted through Grindr under the table.
right yeah but then dealing exploring like what I really wanted, like through Grindr, like under the table, right? Yeah. But then dealing with shame, like being really ashamed of the sex that I was having, really ashamed to talk about sex.
Then, you know, I was using sex as a means to escape as a, as a way to feel validated. I still can slip into that.
So this is what I do like about the show. It took me a moment to realize that the show is really leaping through time yeah you know so unlike most reality shows where it's almost a moment in time this almost seems like a like an anthology in a way it's really us following you on a journey through seasons over a year and a half exactly exactly i get into a relationship so my relationship began um the emmys were in september michael and i started seeing each other around christmas of that year then the show got picked up and we started filming more episodes or the the crew started being around in january right when we started our relationship so i always joke was like hey you fell in love with a reality star there's nothing you could do about that was he was he ready for that though no and he's someone who my boyfriend doesn't even engage in small talk like my boyfriend does not perform that's what i love about him he does not perform he makes me grounded in a way like even like our sex is different because i don't even like you know like sometimes you have sex and you like it's a a pornographic i'm like i'll give like oh fucking all shit and like i'll say some things just like for the performance of the thing none of that would play with my boyfriend none of that like you better be you better be fucking real with me you would never see this character in a reality show you would never see someone like no it's true they say he's boring if he was yeah yeah because he's not seeking drama yeah he wouldn't be cast in a reality show yeah um would never see someone like him.
No, it's true. They'd say he's boring.
If he was in a reality show. Yeah, because he's not seeking drama.
Yeah, he wouldn't be cast in a reality show. Yeah, yeah.
But then it feels like you bring the drama into his life. Yeah, and he grounds me.
But I'm watching the show, and then it's like you fall in love. You're on this journey.
By your accounts, this is the first time you are in love out. Like you are outwardly gay, and here you are in love with someone.
You even talk about it on the show. You you say i've never had sex with somebody that i'm in love with ever and you say it's all encompassing it's consuming yes and then all of a sudden you cheat on him yeah yeah multiple times gerard yeah i'm watching the show you know how weird it is to watch a show where you know the person but now you're judging them as if they're just a character in a show it's like you're ann Eddie McBeal or something.
And I'm like, what are you doing? I have a friend who's a director, Malcolm Washington. And he said for the first three episodes, he was actively rooting against me.
Yeah. He's one of my closest friends.
He was like, I was screaming, like, why are you fucking this up? It's hard to watch. Me and Michael watched that together.
And it was hard to relive that because i i have a lot of shame

around that not being able to control myself like um oh i lack self-control i i i need sex that much that i'm willing to risk the most important relationship in my life like i'm risking this i'm hurting someone like by by lying i think i can i be honest i think that's i think that's a a more universal theme um than people would like to speak about it's not just the lie it becomes the questions about the lie wait so when we were having dinner that day this had happened yes so you were lying to me then yeah and you were lying to me at breakfast and you were lying to me at lunch and you were lying to me wait when we were in bed you were lying it it one lie the time between the lie and the truth is devastating that's the most devastating thing to me i've lived in that question i i don't want to do that to anyone because i know how that feels like with my father just like oh wait okay so christmas of 98 wait you said you had to work what does that mean like i'm just i have to i replay moments in my life all the time and that doesn't feel good how much of you i use the word blame but i you know because i can't think of another one right now how much of you blames your father for you cheating on your boyfriend is there a part of you that almost says i saw my father cheat cheat. My father had a second family.
He had a whole different world. And because of that, I've learned that this is the way to be.
I, you know, I'm torn because I, I don't blame him because I am a man and I know it was wrong and I have to be responsible for my own actions. But at the same time, a thing that I learned from my father that he wasn't necessarily trying to teach was that you are as good as what you can get away with.
And I always felt like, oh, if the sign says no turn on red, if I turn on red and I don't get stopped by the police, it's okay. You know, if I, you know, that's the thing.

He didn't maintain multiple families for a lot of years.

He did maintain the secret for a lot of years.

He got away with it.

I now know the stress of that and the devastating toll that takes on your emotional health.

Yeah, yeah.

But you kind of learn that.

You're like, oh, like, you know, if you're AJ Soprano and you see your dad getting away with this, you know, like, oh, maybe, okay, maybe I'm supposed to.

We'll be right back after this short break. here's what i like about it is it is a it is a show that is graphic but yet intimate and and the story that it tells i think can can tie to so many people's lives you know so the first one i'm sure there are many people as you say who are hiding a part of themselves that is holding them from becoming their fullest selves.
And then we look at how many people find somebody who starts to love them for the first time, who starts to love them for who they are. But then there's like this self-destructive cycle that people get in where it's all working out.
And now you're becoming the force that is holding you back from experiencing everything. But talk to me a little bit about yourself and Michael getting into the open relationship.
He seemed level-headed, really peaceful, and loving in how he was able to navigate the two of you broaching an open relationship. Yes.
And he asked you a question, and it was so eloquently phrased. i don't want to mess it up he he he said should we broach you know the conversation should we open the relationship or do you need the transgression i know the perils of a smart boyfriend oh my god just sending me into a spiral for a month what was the answer by? I mean, a lot of therapy to figure out, was I getting off on the transgression? Like, it is part of the thrill, the secrecy.
And the open relationship was something that we talked about before. We talked about, like, all right, we both are honest about having sexual desires outside of each other.
Yeah. Right? Which is, I think, common in every relationship.
The difficult thing is stating desire. Like, saying that.
Like, and that was asking for it was really, really hard for me. That is where the respect comes.
I'll tell you, I trust you enough to tell you my desires. I trust you enough to tell you my plans.
It's too easy to lie and manipulate the truth if you're withholding from the beginning. So that's the hard thing.
The open part of the open relationship isn't just the extra sex. It's actually being open about your desires and your needs and what you want.
And that's hard. But here's the thing that I think a lot of people take for granted.
And I'd love to know if you bumped up against this. A lot of people think that opening a relationship insulates them from hurt and pain and shame, et cetera, right? But what a lot of people don't realize is every relationship has some sort of rule.
So even in your contract, there's rules like no exes. There was like no sleepover, no cuddling or something to that effect.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No sleepovers, no drinks.
Right. Doesn't that just shift the Overton window and the rules, but still put you in a place where transgression exists? Because what if you do hook up with an ex? Now it's a different type of cheating and it's worse.
I've heard people say, and I think think i agree being cheated on when you're in an open relationship is worse than being cheated on when you gave i gave you the there you go keys like you had like that means you're still fine and and i'm guilty of i found because it was new i've i've been clumsy with it found new ways to lie but out of shame like i'm ashamed of like it's it's a it's a lot of shame and and my boyfriend and i go both go through this it's shame of enjoying it right so it's just like oh i hooked up with somebody and it was nice yeah oh my god like that's so painful but it's also know, now we're kind of at this place where with practice it becomes easier. It's just like, okay, it becomes less of a reason to lie.
Like, we can just express desire, express. Like, we can have a recap.
This is an excuse to be honest with each other consistently. It's hard.
Relationships are hard. They're hard enough without sex outside of the relationship.
But there are upside. The upside is the honesty.
The upside is the opportunity to be honest. Here's something.
One of my favorite lines ever, I think it was Esther Perel, who said, she said, people don't want to be in an open relationship. They want to be in an relationship and oftentimes they confuse the two yes and i think what people take for granted is that in open relationships they find a certain measure of relief and and shame that is taken off of them because they are open but they don't realize it's not about the openness because it's still closed you've just moved where the.
Yes. It's more that you are now honest about the fact that you even have these feelings.
And I think a lot of people exist in relationships where the very idea that you may be attracted to another human being is enough to create fissures in your relationship. Oh, yeah.
My straight friends all just lie to each other. I don't see other people.
Oh, he's not hot. She's not pretty.
Oh, I only have eyes for you. Okay.
That's how the cliche of like, man, on his 50th birthday, running off with the secretary happens. It takes mature people that can handle it.
And it takes understanding. You just both have to agree.
While you're dealing with Michael, while you're dealing with love, while you're dealing with a relationship, you're also trying to stitch together the very real tears that came between you and your family and you talk about how your mom is very religious yes and just essentially stops speaking to you and you know says to you like in a very nice way by the way which is this is the thing i love about your mom is in a very nice way she essentially tells you you that, you know, you're probably going to burn in hell. Yeah.
With a sweet smile. Sweet smile.
She says, you know, like I pray for your soul. But you're essentially ostracized.
We see this journey in the show and it kicks off really with your dad. And it's an interesting journey.
You go on a road trip with your dad. and I would love to know like why are you so insistent

on like putting it in their face so if for anyone who watches the show they'll know what i'm talking about yeah yeah you've come out as gay yeah all right now you're trying to patch the relationship you're in the car with your dad and in the middle of him driving you in this little winnebago type thing yeah you just go off on like all the different type you like start explaining bears and otters and dolphins and and twinks yeah you're talking about gay sex man and you see your dad is like a composed black man who can feel that there's cameras by the way yes yes and i'm like gerard why are you doing this to him you go straight into like yo gay gay gay let me tell you about my boyfriend twinks dolphins yeah yeah yeah yeah are you doing that on purpose and why i'm doing that because it's the thing i really i'm not supposed to do all right i'm gay we can get's head around that, all right, even if they don't want me to be fine. The unspoken rule, just don't rub it in our face.
Don't bring it up. As much as you can.
When I first came out to my parents, the first thing my dad said was like, you wouldn't do anything crazy like try and bring a guy home to your mom right what does that mean like am i supposed to just like talk around it am i not supposed to use boyfriend am i supposed to use my mom's term oh that's your friend you know like it like it like all those things that are just around it or can we just dive straight in the cameras were a good excuse to just dive in and don't get me wrong wrong. I'm antagonistic with my parents.
I mean, you're antagonistic with everyone. Yeah.
So it wasn't for the show as much as it, that is something that I would love to do to my dad at any moment in life. And like, we're on this road trip.
So why not now? Like it, like it kind of just came up. I'm like, I wanted to show him my boyfriend and I showed him a picture.
Yeah. And you showed him a picture of him naked in the bathroom mirror.
I was like, come on, Gerard. Because he was hot there.
Warm him up. And I was like, hey, look.
No, he's hot. Look at this.
I was like, I wouldn't even show my parents a picture of my girlfriend in a bikini as the first picture. Come on, Gerard.
Hey, you know, look. And this is a black person to a black parent.
I was like, come on, Gerard. But there's like- I was like, you haven't been beaten in a long time you know but what you've forgotten everything what victoria era chamber game of politics are we playing here where i'm supposed to like no okay i hear you a man i think is hot that i like having sex with yes and i like having sex and this is who i am and i want to be able to say anything to anybody but here's what i feel right? And again, I am not trying to calibrate you.
This is what I felt as a person. There's a part of me that's going, Gerard, is this you having an inability to calibrate how much of you you want to be out because you've had so much of your life being in? Yeah, maybe, but you know, here's the I'm saying the thing that needs to be said.
We need to hear it because it's true. That's my point of view.
If it's true, it needs to be said. Okay.
So when it comes to you and your sexuality, I would always defer to you because I don't know what that's like. But then there's a moment where dad, and, you know, you've gone back to his hometown.
You've taken this drive. You've hung out with, like, his friends from way back, and you've had these comments.
It's beautiful, man. It's a beautiful, beautiful moment to watch.
And then the two of you are sitting, you know, by the fire, you know, toasting marshmallows. And then you go in on on your dad and you go in on him for things that you rightfully feel hurt about you know the fact that he had a secret family the fact that he left you feeling like you don't know where you belong or how you should belong he left you feeling shame yes but you go in on him and i mean you go in and you go in and you go in and you go in and it's like a really painful moment where he says he goes i knew it he says i knew this would happen i knew this was coming when you said we're going on the trip and then he says why are you making this public like why are you dragging this out like that and then you say no you made it public when you did it and everyone in our neighborhood knew yes and essentially he's like yeah but you made it public yeah you know yeah so first of all do you understand where he's coming from and even understanding that you still hold that position where you go no you know gerard's feelings and emotions come first in this equation so all this is rooted in shame right right? When you think about it, okay, he knew.
He knew before the cameras were up. He knew before he came to New York.
There's a phone call that could be made. Hey, what do you want to talk about? Do you want to talk about this? Oh, that's interesting.
Do you want to get this out? But he couldn't do that because of shame. And I couldn't do that because of shame.
That's interesting. That's why the cameras, I get it.
It's unorthodox. It's strange.
But it was necessary for me. We needed an excuse to say the things that we couldn't say to each other in private.
These are questions I really want to know the answer to. There are some need to know the answer to that I can't ask without a trellis.
I need the support. The reason I like making it public-er is to try and eradicate the shame.
I'm trying to free my father. The shame is weighing on him.
It's ruining his life. My father, he has anxiety.
He's afraid of run-ins with his other family. He doesn't want to go to his grandkids' birthday parties because somebody might take a picture and put it on Facebook, and then the other family will get upset because when you didn't come to mind.
He's very, very afraid. He's living in fear.
He's crippled by fear. I'm trying to set that man free, and I'm trying to be as public as we've been private.
We've been living in shame and fear for so long and hbo is just the place to like if you're i was afraid of heights i would skydive you think hbo is a better place than like therapy for instance i would like therapy too you can't force someone into therapy i offer it all the time okay like so this is just another form of therapy for me like it's a baptism by fire, but it's therapy because it's out there.

There are billboards directing people to watch it being put out there.

We'll be right back after this short break. your mom is maybe the most interesting character in this show for me because she presents the most complicated dynamic in this conversation yeah you talk about how you and your mom were super tight and we see you reunite with your mom in the show and it's beautiful and she you know she says i dreamed of this day and it's we see you and your nieces and everyone's happy and and then all of a sudden you know almost classic gerard style in the show you're talking to her about being gay and she goes i accept you and i love you with all my heart if you choose to be gay then you choose to be gay and i accept you for that and your face switches in that moment and you go well i don't choose to be gay and she's like yeah well the same way you know i would like a mother would learn to love a murderer would learn to love And you're just like whoa whoa whoa You're saying it's like being a murderer And one of the most beautiful moments Turns into a tense moment Where you have this fundamental fight Where she's like you're choosing this Everything is a choice And this tension with your mom takes place over several episodes She's very religious And now And now you've come along and you've said, hey, you have to choose between me and God.
There's a line that sort of perfectly sums up what we experience in the show and what I guess you experienced in your life between you and your mom. And it's when you're on stage and you say you have such a complicated relationship with your mom because on the one hand, all you want to do is protect her and love her.
And on the other hand, you just want to destroy her. Talk me through that emotion.
First of all, where do you stand today? And how do you deal with that? Because it's a real paradox of feeling. The parts I want to destroy are the parts that create the separation between us.
The fact that she's watching God and not seeing me. I love my mother.
I feel like I understood her. I feel like I have been the manifestation of a lot of the blessings she prays for.
She read every day a Bible verse that says, ask me and I will tell you things that you don't know and can't find out. I'm the reason my father revealed his infidelity.
She talks about blessings coming from God and him protecting you from harm and protecting you from having nothing. In some way, I'm a little jealous of God.
I'm like, man, you believe in God, I'm doing all this work. I'm doing all this work.
And I just won't, I don't feel respected when her love comes with a caveat. When it's like, I respect you, but I also don't really believe you.
I think you're a 37-year-old going through a phase. Yeah, your soul's going to hell, but I love you.
It just doesn't feel good. I have to come to terms.
She's not leaving God. And I know God's been really important to her, and I don't want her to.
I just want her to understand me. And look, with time and conversations, like conversations like what we had on the show, I think voicing that hurt allows us to not do it again or to at least have empathy for how the other person feels.
And I'm not saying that she's done everything wrong. I've retreated.
We both go to our corner because we're hurt. And some of my aggressive behaviors help.
Just like, hey, going home, this is my boyfriend. This is reality.
Yeah, when you see that in the show, it's intense. Like, sit down and this is a human being who deserves your respect.
I deserve your respect.

If I don't put it in my parents' face, they'll never look at it.

That's an interesting point.

Because I did think about that. I won't lie.

The first thought I had was, come on, Gerard.

Surely there's a more diplomatic way to handle this.

But then the other thought I had was, come on, Trevor.

I think Gerard knows his parents more than you do. I just know that they won't.
I grew up with them. I'm raised by them.
And so I know the only way to bring about change is through action. And so I take action.
But it felt like to me, and this is where I really relate to you. My mom's super religious.
But the thing I learned to do, and I think time has helped me, is I've also learned to communicate the way she does i've also learned to understand the things that she's saying because we're not using the same language especially because she's very religious yes you know what i mean so while you are pushing to be understood have you made an effort to try and understand her more to try and live in her world to speak to her through her world because you say some crazy shit to her as well which is very funny yeah it's very funny one of the craziest lines i've ever heard is you turn to your mom you go bowling together man i don't think i'll ever forget this moment you turn to your mom and you say to her you say you know mom i've been reading that some some people believe that boys aren't actually born gay

you know they they become gay and you see her face light up like oh yeah you're coming around and you go like yeah and actually they become gay because they love their moms so much that they just want to like be them and they want to you know be with them and they you know and you're like so maybe i'm gay because i love you so much i love you so much mom and she's like oh thank you baby and then you say i love you so much mom i would suck a dick you're like, so maybe I'm gay because I love you so much. I love you so much, mom.
And she's like, oh, thank you, baby. And then you say, I love you so much, mom.
I would suck a dick. You're like, I suck a dick, mom.
That's how much I suck dicks for you. And all of her happiness, all of her everything goes away.
And she turns to you and she goes, why would you say that? Yes. You can see in that same episode, I asked her, what would she have me do? If you believe that I wasn't born gay and that there's a way to change that, how would I? And she said, you have to talk to Jesus.
I said, what do I say? And she says, you asking me? I was like, yeah, pray for me right now. And she has a moment and she prays and she says you asking me i was like yeah pray pray for me right now and she has a moment

and she prays and she tries to pray the gay away i i kind of immediately regretted it because it

was like oh wow now like now she thinks it's like on a time release but it really was funny

but but i i'm trying to listen i'm trying to hear yeah i would like for her because i'm

Thank you. it really was funny i'm not gonna lie it was very funny but but i i'm trying to listen i'm trying to hear i would like for her because i'm presenting as many possible solutions as i know for my world therapy talking about things head on the cameras all these are just my attempts to bring about some right solution she wants me to pray i grew up in the church if if i could have prayed it away i it would be gone i tried i was praying i used to pray it away i used to think i mean this is like a like a wild thing when i was a kid like just like getting home from school before my parents got off of work and i would like jerk off i thought god was watching so i would like jerk off to gay porn on the internet and then immediately jerk off to straight porn as if to cleanse myself.
Like, see God, I love pussy too. Cause God loves pussy.
And I'm like, I'm like, I did it. I did it.
I've been trying my whole life. One thing I hope people know about this show.
If you watch the clip online of you and Tyler, the creator, it seems like the show is an awkward fest it's just it's all about awkwardness and it's it's it's horrible and it's you know but when you watch the show it is funny it's light but the big thing for me and i mean obviously i'm i'm biased i'm a comedian it's so funny but like it's heartfelt funny and and when we when we see the relationship with your mom there's one joke that she throws in That makes your face Turn like hers By the way You bring Your boyfriend over Not welcome Yeah And At the end of this Very awkward time You've spent together Your mom's just been sitting There she's not happy You say that you're gonna Head out now Because you're hungry and your mom says well there's always mcdonald's and your face in that you you were as hurt and as shocked yeah as she was when you made the jokes yeah but in that moment i was like oh shit this is where gerard gets it from yeah no she knows how she knows how to attack for sure yeah for sure and and in the show i i don't think anyone's like no one's innocent no one's guilty we're all just human i'm just trying to show the full range of my humanity yeah in the beginning of the show i was hoping a truck would run you over i know you by the way yeah yeah but in the beginning of the show like i'm like gerard i, I was like, nope, nope, all right. Take this man off the earth.
And I don't say this to you because you're here. By the end of the show, I go, man, what a human being.
And not like what a good human being, what a bad, just what a human being. What a look into everything that people are dealing with that we don't speak about publicly just all of it and i'd love to know because this this has taken place over such a long period of time like where are you now where is your family now and if you were talking to somebody else who was in a similar position what would you how would you advise them or what would you say were some of the biggest learnings on how to get here what would you have done differently and what would you have sped up if you if you could like what would you have what would you have doubled down on to get to this place so i'll answer where we are now i'm thankful anytime i talk to my parents and they ask about Mike.
That makes me very happy. How is he? How's he doing? And my advice to anyone experiencing a rift with their family or anyone in their life is fight.
Just fight. Use all of the tools that you have to fight.
And that's what I did. I used the tools I have as a man, the career that I've chosen for the fight.
I'm fighting to keep my family together. I'm fighting for respect.
I'm fighting for love. And so fight really, really hard.
It's worth it. And go a step beyond.
I see a lot of people using words like cringe or embarrassing or these things that are easily reasons not to have a conversation or reasons not to talk to someone because it will be too embarrassing or too cringe if you will go beyond

it like beyond cringe is freedom you know go a step beyond that i feel like i i've been crucified

by cringe and a rose on sunday your mom's not gonna like yeah i know just one one more Jesus reference. Just for the road.

What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions and Fullwell 73.

The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston,

Sanaz Yamin, and Jody Avigan.

Our senior producer is Jess Hackle.

Marina Henke is our producer.

Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown.

Thank you so much for listening.

Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? I'm out.