Jerrod Carmichael Knows He’s Cringe and Likes It

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Speaker 4 It goes the other way around. Like, I wouldn't want my mom showing me a picture of the guy she's dating in underwear.
Oh, here's the dude, Trevor.

Speaker 2 What do you think? Yeah, I'm willing to listen to whatever you want to share with me. And I have always been that.

Speaker 4 But are you willing to listen to somebody not being willing to listen to that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe. But you know, here's the thing.

Speaker 2 When my grandmother was alive, my granddad died and she got remarried to somebody that was questionable at best,

Speaker 2 and the whole family being respectful didn't want to say anything. Like, she was in her 70s, and this is her decision, and just happy she found love.
She's happy with her.

Speaker 2 And I'm the only one in the family that's just like, no, no, no, grandma, who is this nigga?

Speaker 2 Like, what's going on? And the family loved it. Because I'm saying the thing that you're not supposed to say.

Speaker 2 They love when I do it for them. No, I hear what you're saying.
They love when I do it for them. I'm doing it for me now.

Speaker 4 You're listening to What Now, the podcast where I chat to interesting people about the conversations taking over our world.

Speaker 4 This week, we're talking to my longtime friend and fellow stand-up comedian, Gerard Carmichael. In 2022, Gerard shocked the world with the revelation that his name was in fact Rathaniel.

Speaker 4 He also came out as gay. on the same stage on that same night.

Speaker 4 That performance won won him an Emmy.

Speaker 4 And now he's back. Gerard just released a series called The Gerard Carmichael Reality Show.
It's exactly what it sounds like.

Speaker 4 Cameras follow Gerard around through some of the most intimate moments of his life. He starts off confessing feelings of attraction to his good friend who you may know, Tyler the Creator.

Speaker 4 He tries to confront his dad about the lasting effects of a long time affair and a secret family and he pushes his religious mother on her inability to accept his sexuality.

Speaker 2 Gerard invites his audience into all of it, and I mean all of it.

Speaker 4 It's a conversation about how shame can overtake us, whether being public about something is the same as being honest about it, and how to fight for the love we think we deserve.

Speaker 4 It's a really special one, and I hope you'll enjoy.

Speaker 4 I'm gonna hit record and then move.

Speaker 4 This is What Now with Trevor Noah.

Speaker 4 Gerard Carmichael.

Speaker 2 Hi, Trevor. Welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 This is wild and sudden.

Speaker 4 It is wild and sudden, which I actually like sometimes.

Speaker 4 There's an element of you still being curious about what you're having the conversation about.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I'm, well, I wanted to talk to you because you're smart and I trust you and I can speak freely. Oh, thank you.
Like, I value like these types of conversations more and more every day.

Speaker 4 Okay, so let's start speaking about that. I remember coming to LA.
driving down sunset and then seeing a massive billboard of you in your underwear, tidy whiteys.

Speaker 4 And it's it's weird when it's, I mean, tidy whiteys on their own with like a person on a billboard. It's double weird when someone you know.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because I'm like, what is happening? Why is that? Isn't your extra, extra tight? Because I was putting on a suit for the Emmys.

Speaker 2 So it was like the extra, like the not, it's like not even the everyday underwear. It's like the extra underneath tuxedo pants.

Speaker 4 The tuck-in ones. Yeah, yeah.
Seamless, tuck-in.

Speaker 2 Seamless, tuck-in, tidy-whiteys. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Those were, were those the Emmys that you won?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Congratulations again. Thank you very much.
You left, so I couldn't say congrats to you at the Emmys. You like won the Emmy and you ran away.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I left immediately. Why? I want nothing to do with the rest of it.
I won. It was a high.
It was great. I have nothing to do.
I'm never around.

Speaker 2 Like, do you go to the party when you host the Grammys? Do you go to the parties and you're at the event and stuff?

Speaker 4 I try, but I miss them every year.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay.

Speaker 4 So I'll, because I'll do the Grammys and then afterwards, I'll... go and thank everybody debrief change and then by the time i get to the after parties they're all done oh yeah.

Speaker 4 You know, the reason I ask you about like the award shows and what you do. And there's few people I know of who are lovers of art and entertainment as much as you are.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like you, you're like a film buff. You're a music buff.
You are a TV buff. You have like a broad palette.
So I wanted to know why you wanted to make a reality show.

Speaker 4 Because I'll be honest, when I saw that, I was like, that doesn't seem like Gerard. Yeah.
You seem like the antithesis of a reality show.

Speaker 4 Why make...

Speaker 2 Well, first, I've been doing all these,

Speaker 2 like my stand-up became really personal. My stand-up started being me solving personal problems on stage.
Okay.

Speaker 2 I would go out on stage with a problem, usually sparked from like a conversation or a text or a conversation I needed to have or was afraid to have. And I would talk about it with the audience.

Speaker 2 And all after my last special, after Rothaniel, where I came out

Speaker 2 through stand-up, I started doing that with other problems in my life. And I was trying to figure out a show, like, all right, well, what would a show be that's true to me?

Speaker 2 Something that could keep my attention, something that I thought was funny and interesting.

Speaker 2 And I started realizing all the things that I was paying attention to, like on social media, even like on television, were all things that had like like a lot of humanity and a core personal problem.

Speaker 2 And it was like, oh, I think I know what it is. It's a reality show.
Like, I need an excuse to solve these problems in my life.

Speaker 2 And every episode will be a new challenge, something that I need to face, something I need to solve, something I need to confront. And we'll just play it out.

Speaker 2 I didn't even know what the things were when we got into it. I just knew that's what I wanted to do.

Speaker 4 I like that you say you didn't know what the things were.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know, you write the show.
And the comedian usually writes the sitcom based on his life, based off their life.

Speaker 2 I'd done that before. And even that was like episodically was like, you know, I got a lot of controversial political views out.
I do an episode about Cosby. I did an episode about mass shooting.

Speaker 2 I did just things that caught my attention. And so it was the same philosophy just applied to me, just applied to my actual life.
Because life starts kind of playing out episodically.

Speaker 2 Even the aesthetic, like the aesthetic of my life, I do wardrobe changes at home alone. Like I'm like changing like somebody's watching me all the time.

Speaker 2 I'm like constantly like obsessed with my own aesthetic anyway. So I'm kind of living in a show.

Speaker 4 Okay, but were you prepared for how much messiness would come? Because like it felt like to me, you see, this is what I mean, but I know you as Gerard, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I've known you for many years. We've met on the comedy scene.
We've done shows together and we'd bump into each other in New York. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like a lot of the swing shows.

Speaker 4 Yeah, but I always knew you to be somebody who was like fairly private. And I mean, I definitely wouldn't have considered you messy.
And then the reality show starts. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And then all of a sudden, it's like Gerard's in the news, like, Dave Chappelle, Gerard Carmichael, beef. And I was like, wait, what is going on?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 You actually have a friend who pops into the show. Pretty certain I know who it is because of his cadence and vibes, but I won't out him in that way.

Speaker 2 Anonymous remains anonymous.

Speaker 4 Anonymous remains anonymous. Anonymous comes on the show.
He's wearing,

Speaker 4 we call it a balaclava. You call it a ski mask?

Speaker 2 Balaclava, yeah.

Speaker 4 Oh, balaclava ski mask. And he basically confronts you in the first episode of the show and he says, Why are you doing this? This is intrusive.
This is masturbatory.

Speaker 4 This is not the way for you to solve these issues, you know, like in the public eye.

Speaker 4 And then towards the end of the season, we see him come back and he comes back and he says, I still don't understand why you would want to put this in front of people who have no interest in engaging in it honestly.

Speaker 2 And Anonymous is great because he's the Greek chorus stating the danger and the risk of the whole idea. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 for me, okay, going back to what you said about me being a private person, I was and I am.

Speaker 2 A lot of that's rooted in trauma. A lot of that's rooted in fear of being seen.

Speaker 2 So the show was a chaotic idea. Okay, what if I put everything I'm afraid of, everything I'm ashamed of, just out there? What if it's false? What if it's all out there?

Speaker 2 Then what?

Speaker 2 There is some freedom in that. Like, like I, the way to eradicate shame is by speaking it.

Speaker 2 you you bring it you bring it to the light yeah so so the show was a chaotic experiment in eradicating shame because i i am private but not really like i'm kind of living in a post-privacy world right now man i the layers i sometimes feel like you are

Speaker 4 you know when people go to university sometimes and they'll try and do a course that's four years in one year Yeah, yeah. I sometimes feel like you're doing that with life right now.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 I'm just, because I'm just going to ask you all these questions like on a, on a personal level. Please, the first thing I need to understand is this:

Speaker 4 is it actually a reality show, or is it a show that's done in the style of a reality show and it's like scripted out? And I ask this because I haven't seen a reality show shot like this.

Speaker 4 I haven't seen a reality show done like this. Like, some people have seen the clips online of Tyler, for instance, right?

Speaker 4 And there's the moment where you're saying to Tyler, the creator, you're going, Hey, I had feelings for you, and I told you, and you called me a messy bitch, and he's being very funny with it.

Speaker 4 And there's the cameras, and but the way it's done leaves many people wondering whether or not they're witnessing something that was captured by a reality show yeah or they're witnessing a show made in the style of a reality show which yeah yeah which you could be capable of both that's the thing yeah no it's funny i think people think that it's like uh some type of andy kauffman joaquin phoenix yeah yeah yeah yeah that i'm right that i'm playing no i i i'm Everything I'm doing is very real.

Speaker 2 I'm working with a very talented team. We had goals for episodes, but the goals were personal goals.
Talk to your mom, have the conversation with Tyler. But how it played out was how it played out.

Speaker 2 We weren't sure. The cameras were just catching up to meet, catching up to what was happening in the moment.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you're working with really talented people because there are moments in this show that are almost cinematic.

Speaker 4 You know, like if we talk about that scene with Tyler, for instance, you know, the shot that's on Tyler. is partially blocked off on the left side of the of the frame.

Speaker 4 Like, you know, so like, it looks like the camera's like hiding behind a door, seeing tyler yeah and then on the camera that we're seeing you with is like the angle is weird and so you you know there's a light next to you and and there's a light between you and the two of you are eating and it's it's messy and it's do you know what i mean yeah yeah if you told me that was a scripted show i'd go like oh yeah i could see yeah

Speaker 2 it's in that conversation in particular they were like duck blinds we we wanted to hide the camera like Tyler knew there were cameras, but we hid them from view so that it could have this level of intensity so it could be natural.

Speaker 2 So we really to eliminate performance. There's still some, I guess, performance as it would be in that type of conversation.
But

Speaker 2 it's just, again, a really thoughtful crew that has a good eye, got familiar with me, my movements. Again, a lot of my life is naturally kind of stage directed.

Speaker 2 There's like a moment where hookups coming over and you see me like,

Speaker 2 I was talking like vacuum before company's coming over and I'm like spraying lavender and I'm like moving things around. I would do that without the camera.
That's just how I am.

Speaker 2 So the camera kind of captured a lot of my natural aesthetic.

Speaker 4 So let's talk through it episodically because I think, you know, in a strange way, this show is laid out perfectly for the conversation.

Speaker 4 And I mean, kudos to you and your team because it introduces us to your world. in a way that would make people ask questions in like the most linear fashion.

Speaker 4 So, you know, like the first few episodes and the first one in particular is almost us jumping in headfirst into this world where Gerard Carmichael is coming to grips with and exploring the fact that he's now openly gay.

Speaker 4 Episode one, I'm anxious.

Speaker 2 Episode one is so much anxiety. I was a ball of anxiety.
My life was odd. It was the, I was at this professional high and a personal low.
And it was this. odd combination of the two.

Speaker 2 I'm like going to the Emmys, but like so scared and anxious about who I'm going to bring and who I'm going to be seen with. Yeah.
And what is that a statement?

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's what I was about to say. Are you scared because you are trying to figure out how to be outwardly gay? Yeah.
Like at that moment in time?

Speaker 2 Well, trying to make sense of who I am. Like I thought I was one thing.
Like I pretended to be or

Speaker 2 not even pretended.

Speaker 2 I tried really hard to live up to this idea that I had in my head that my parents gifted me with, that my big brother gave me, and the hood that I'm from gave me of what a man was, how a man operated.

Speaker 2 And I saw myself as I wanted the world to see me, and that changed. I said something about myself that had the potential of changing how the world saw me.

Speaker 2 And so looking in the mirror was, it's like, wait, who, wait, who are you again? What does this mean? Like, what I was trying to find footing.

Speaker 4 And so was it easier for you to find that footing with the cameras there? Because that's what blew my mind. I was going, what you're going through is so difficult.

Speaker 4 I can't imagine what that must be like. To now navigate that with cameras to me as Trevor seems harder because...
Like I was, I was surprised at how comfortable your hookups were, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like people talk about like, oh, he's sucking toes. And I'm like, yeah, a lot of people suck toes.
I just don't know if people are comfortable enough to suck toes in person. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 2 like they weren't surprised when they walked in I'm assuming right no, no, I told them it was part of the grinder conversation just like hey you ought to come It was like a regular conversation You're like I'm on a reality show and I'm filming a reality show you want to be in it and people like tell me more

Speaker 2 And I'm like, yeah, I mean come over but like in LA I'm sure like a percentage of them I think like some of them had only fans. Some of them like probably want to be in the industry in some way.

Speaker 2 And some were just curious. Just, what do you mean you're filming a reality show?

Speaker 2 But things played out pretty normally.

Speaker 2 That's kind of what's what was great about it. I think people were as comfortable as I was.
And so because I was like, yeah, the cameras are here. And

Speaker 2 then that's how they treated it. Like, all right, well, go on.
And people would ask, like, are we going to have sex on camera? And I'm like,

Speaker 2 well, first I'll respond, would you?

Speaker 2 But then I was like, I don't know.

Speaker 2 People were so prudishly shocked by the toes. I don't know if they would have handled like full-on brown bunny blowjob.

Speaker 4 When you are exploring the anxiety of coming out as gay and coming out as gay when you are already well-known and coming out as gay when you're already well-known and you come from a family that is very religious and black and from the south, layer upon layer upon layer upon layer.

Speaker 4 You have a lot going through your mind. You have a lot that we're feeling through the camera when we're watching the show.

Speaker 4 And it feels like

Speaker 4 I don't know if it's, I know it's self-doubt,

Speaker 4 but there's a constant theme of self-loathing.

Speaker 4 Have you worked through that? Do you still have it? Is there a part of you that still judges Gerard for being the thing that he's not supposed to be?

Speaker 2 I'm working. I'm doing a lot of therapy.

Speaker 2 I do psychoanalysis.

Speaker 2 I do four sessions a week.

Speaker 4 I do two double sessions. Wow.

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 am always, and especially in sex therapy, just looking in corners, like trying to get rid of shame. Just things that sometimes not even realizing how much my actions were motivated by shame.

Speaker 2 Like you, until you dig, just explore your own life. And

Speaker 2 the show is inviting people into the process.

Speaker 2 I saw that in response, like, oh, yeah, some self-hate. And, you know, like, yeah.

Speaker 2 yeah, of course.

Speaker 2 No shit,

Speaker 2 like, it's a lot, like, and I'm trying to get rid of it.

Speaker 2 You know, I, I, I've been saying, I think everybody's in the closet about something.

Speaker 2 Like, there, there's something, there's a part of you that you don't want to reveal to the world. And I'm revealing a lot, not just being gay, but a lot of things.

Speaker 2 So, like, shame about my interpersonal relationships,

Speaker 2 my relationship, my family dynamic. Like I have a lot of shame around

Speaker 2 a few different things. So I'm exploring all of that in the show.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because in the show, you jump into a lot of sex. And I mean a lot of sex.

Speaker 4 It's like a montage sex scene. Like

Speaker 4 we're not seeing the sex, but it's just like hook up, hook up, hook up, hook up, hook up. Door opening, door closing, door opening, door closing.
You're seeing all these people.

Speaker 4 Did you always have that sexual appetite?

Speaker 2 Because that's one thing I couldn't pick up from the show was like, as Gerard, have you always been insatiable or was this a new thing because now you're exploring this this sexuality that you've been suppressing for so long or I I think I have had a high libido like my boyfriend and I talked about the fact that I like I used to sleep with a lot of women and I'm not bi but that's just funny I'm like man that was just the libido playing out I guess like how did I do that for like years and then there was a long period of time when I first moved to LA that I just suppressed all of it like I wasn't I was able to focus on work.

Speaker 2 I was in a new city trying to understand my craft and doing mics and shows and writing and just all this work for a few years where it was just completely off the table.

Speaker 2 Then I was having sex to be seen, hooking up with like girls, but then also exploring like what I really wanted. like through Grindr, like under the under the radar, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But then dealing with shame, like being really ashamed of the the sex that I was having,

Speaker 2 really ashamed to talk about sex.

Speaker 2 I was using sex as a means to escape,

Speaker 2 as a way to feel validated. I still can slip into that.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 So this is what I do like about the show. It took me a moment to realize that the show is really leaping through time.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 You know, so unlike most reality shows where it's almost a moment in time, this almost seems like an anthology in a way. It's really us following you on a journey through seasons and seasons.

Speaker 4 So over a year.

Speaker 2 exactly exactly i get into a relationship so my relationship began um the emmys were in september michael and i started seeing each other around christmas of that year

Speaker 2 then the show got picked up and we started filming more episodes or the the the crew started being around in january right when we started our relationship so i i always joke like hey you fell in love with a reality star there's nothing you could do about that was he was he ready for that though no and he's someone who my boyfriend doesn't even engage in small talk.

Speaker 2 Like, my boyfriend does not perform. That's what I love about him.
He does not perform.

Speaker 2 He makes me ground it in a way, like even like our sex is different because I don't even like, you know, like sometimes you have sex and you like, it's a pornographic rhythm.

Speaker 2 I'm like, I'll give like, oh, fuck and all shit. And like, I'll say some things just like for the performance of the thing.

Speaker 2 None of that would play with my boyfriend. None of that.
Like, you better be, you better be fucking real with me. You would never see this character in a reality show.

Speaker 4 you would never see someone like no it's true they'd say he's boring if he was in a reality show because he's not seeking he wouldn't yeah he wouldn't be cast in a reality show yeah um yeah but but then it feels like you bring the drama into his life yeah and he grounds me yeah i'm but i'm watching the show and then it's like you fall in love you're on this journey by your accounts this is the first time you are in love out like you are outwardly gay and here you are in love with some you even talk about in the show you say i've never had sex with somebody that i'm in love with ever and you say it's all-encompassing It's consuming.

Speaker 4 Yes. And then all of a sudden you cheat on him.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Multiple times, Gerard. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I'm watching the show. Do you know how weird it is to watch a show where you know the person, but now you're judging them as if they're just a character in a show?

Speaker 4 It's like you're Eddie MacBeal or something.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, what are you doing? I have a friend who's a director, Malcolm Washington. And he said for the first three episodes, he was actively rooting against me.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 He's one of my closest friends. He was like, I was screaming, like, why are you fucking this up? It's hard to watch.

Speaker 2 Me and Michael watched that together and it was hard to relive that because i i have a lot of shame around that not being able to control myself like oh i'm oh i lack self-control i i i need sex that much that i'm willing to risk the most important relationship in my life like i'm risking this i'm hurting someone like by by lying i think i could i be honest i think that's i think that's a

Speaker 4 a more universal theme um than people would like to speak about.

Speaker 4 It's not just the lie. it becomes the questions about the lie.
Wait, so when we were having dinner that day, this had happened.

Speaker 4 So you were lying to me then, and you were lying to me at breakfast, and you were lying to me at lunch, and you were lying to me. Wait, when we were in bed, you were lying.

Speaker 2 It one lie. The time between the lie and the truth is devastating.
That's the most devastating thing to me. I've lived in that question.

Speaker 2 I don't want to do that to anyone because I know how that feels. Like with my father, just like, oh, wait, okay.
So Christmas of 98, wait, you said you had to work. What does that mean?

Speaker 2 Like, I'm just, I have to, I replay moments in my life all the time and that doesn't feel good.

Speaker 4 How much of you, I use the word blame, but I, you know, because I can't think of another one right now. How much of you blames your father

Speaker 4 for you cheating on your boyfriend? Is there a part of you that almost says, I saw my father cheat. My father had a second family.
He had a whole different world.

Speaker 4 And because of that, I've learned that this is the way to be.

Speaker 2 I, you know, I'm torn because I

Speaker 2 don't blame him

Speaker 2 because I am a man and I know it was wrong and I have to be responsible for my own actions. But at the same time, a thing that I learned from my father that he wasn't necessarily trying to teach was

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 you are as good as what you can get away with.

Speaker 2 And I always felt like, oh, if the sign says no turn on red, if I turn on red and I don't get stopped by the police, it's okay. You know, if I, if, you know, that's the thing.

Speaker 2 He didn't maintain multiple families for a lot of years. He did maintain the secret for a lot of years.
He got away with it.

Speaker 2 I now know the stress of that and the devastating toll that that takes on your emotional health.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 you kind of learn that. You're like, oh, like, you know, if you're AJ Soprano and you see your dad getting away with this, you know, like, oh, maybe, okay, maybe I'm supposed to.

Speaker 4 We'll be right back after this short break.

Speaker 4 Here's what I like about it is it is a,

Speaker 4 it is a show that is graphic, but yet intimate. And the story that it tells, I think, can tie to so many people's lives, you know.

Speaker 4 So the first one, I'm sure there are many people, as you say, who are hiding a part of themselves that is holding them from becoming their fullest selves.

Speaker 4 And then we look at how many people find somebody who starts to love them for the first time, who starts to love them for who they are.

Speaker 4 But then there's like this self-destructive cycle that people get in where it's all working out. And now you're becoming the force that is holding you back from experiencing everything.

Speaker 4 But talk to me a little bit about yourself and Michael getting into the open relationship.

Speaker 4 He seemed level-headed, really peaceful, and loving in how he was able to navigate the two of you broaching an open relationship. Yes.

Speaker 4 And he asked you a question, and it was so eloquently phrased. I don't want to mess it up.

Speaker 4 He said, Should we broach

Speaker 4 the conversation?

Speaker 2 Should we open the relationship, or do you need the transgression?

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 2 The perils of my smart boyfriend. Oh, my God.
Just sending me into a spiral for a month.

Speaker 4 What was the answer, by the way?

Speaker 2 I mean, a lot of therapy to figure out was I getting off on the transgression. Like, it is part of the thrill, the, the secrecy.
And the open relationship was something that we talked about before.

Speaker 2 We, we talked about like, all right, we both are honest about having sexual desires outside of each other. Yeah.
Right. Which is, I think, common in every relationship.

Speaker 2 The difficult thing is stating desire, like saying that. Like, and

Speaker 2 if that was asking for it is, was really, really hard for me. That is where the respect comes.
I'll tell you, I trust you enough to tell you my desires. I trust you enough to tell you my plans.

Speaker 2 It's too easy to lie and manipulate the truth if you're withholding from the beginning. So that's the hard thing.
The open part of the open relationship isn't just the extra sex.

Speaker 2 It's actually being open about your desires and your needs and what you want. And that's hard.

Speaker 4 But here's the thing that I think a lot of people take for granted. And I'd love to know if you bumped up against this.

Speaker 4 A lot of people think that opening a relationship insulates them from hurt and pain and shame, et cetera, right?

Speaker 4 But what a lot of people don't realize is... Every relationship has some sort of rule.
So even in your contract, there's rules, like no exes.

Speaker 4 There was like no sleepover, no cuddling or something to that effect.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no sleepovers, no drinks.

Speaker 4 Right. Doesn't that just shift the Overton window and the rules, but still put you in a place where transgression exists? Because what if you do hook up with an ex?

Speaker 4 Now it's a different type of cheating and it's worse.

Speaker 4 I've heard people say, and I think I agree, being cheated on when you're in an open relationship is worse than being cheated on when you're in.

Speaker 2 I gave you the

Speaker 4 keys.

Speaker 2 That means you're still fine. And I'm guilty of it.
I've found, because it was new, I've been clumsy with it, found new ways to lie out of shame. Like, I'm ashamed of like,

Speaker 2 it's a lot of shame. And my boyfriend and I go both go through this.
It's shame of enjoying it,

Speaker 2 right? So it's just like, oh, I hooked up with somebody and it was nice.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh my God.
Like that's so painful. But it's also, you know, now we're kind of at this place where with practice, it becomes easier.
It's just like, okay, it becomes less of a reason to lie.

Speaker 2 Like, we can just express desire, express, like, we can have a recap. This is an excuse to be honest with each other consistently.
It's hard. Relationships are hard.
They're hard enough without

Speaker 2 sex outside of the relationship. But there are upside.
The upside is the honesty. Well, you see, the upside is the opportunity to be things.

Speaker 4 Here's something I, one of my favorite lines ever, I think it was Esther Perel who said,

Speaker 4 she said, people don't want to be in an open relationship. They want to be in an honest relationship.
And oftentimes they confuse the two.

Speaker 4 And I think what people take for granted is that in open relationships, they find a certain measure of relief and shame that is taken off of them because they're open.

Speaker 4 But they don't realize it's not about the openness because it's still closed. You've just moved where the closed is.

Speaker 4 It's more that you are now honest about the fact that you even have these feelings.

Speaker 4 And I think a lot of people exist in relationships where the very idea that you may be attracted to another human being is enough to create fissures in your relationship. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 My straight friends all just lie to each other. Exactly.
I don't see other people. Oh, he's not hot.
She's not pretty. Oh, I only have eyes for you.
Okay.

Speaker 2 That's how, that's how the cliche of like, man, on his 50th birthday running off with the secretary happens. It takes mature people that can handle it and it takes understanding.

Speaker 2 Like you just both have to agree.

Speaker 4 While you're dealing with Michael, while you're dealing with love, while you're dealing with a relationship, you're also trying to stitch together the very real tears that came between you and your family.

Speaker 4 And you talk about how your mom is very religious

Speaker 4 and just essentially stops speaking to you and

Speaker 4 says to you, like,

Speaker 4 in a very nice way, by the way, which is this is the thing I love about your mom is in a very nice way, she essentially tells you that, you know, you're probably going to burn in hell. Yeah.

Speaker 2 With a sweet smile.

Speaker 4 Sweet smile, she says, you know, like I pray for your soul but you essentially ostracize we see this journey in the show and

Speaker 4 it kicks off really with your dad and it and it's an interesting journey you go on a road trip with your dad

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 i i would love to know like why are you so insistent on like putting it in their face so if for anyone who watches the show they'll know what i'm talking about yeah yeah you've come out as gay yeah all right now you're trying to patch the relationship you're in the car with your dad.

Speaker 4 And in the middle of him driving you in this little Winnebago type thing. Yeah.

Speaker 4 You just go off on like all the different types. You like starts explaining bears and otters and dolphins and twinks.
You're talking about gay sex.

Speaker 4 Man, and you see your dad is like a composed black man who can feel that there's cameras, by the way. Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 And I'm like, Gerard, why are you doing this to him? You go straight into like, yo, gay, gay, gay. Let me tell you about my boyfriend, Twinks, dolphins, gay, gay.

Speaker 2 Dolphins.

Speaker 4 Are you doing that on purpose and why?

Speaker 2 I'm doing that

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 it's the thing I really,

Speaker 2 I'm not supposed to do. All right, I'm gay.
We can get my family's head around that. All right.
Even if they don't want me to be fine.

Speaker 2 The unspoken rule, just don't rub it in our face. Don't bring it up.

Speaker 2 As much as you can. When I first came out to my parents, the first thing my dad said was like, you wouldn't do anything crazy, like try and bring a guy home to your mom, right?

Speaker 2 What does that mean? Like, am I supposed to just like talk around it? Am I not supposed to use boyfriend? Am I supposed to use my mom's term?

Speaker 2 Oh, that's your friend, you know, like it, like, it, like, all those things that are just around it. Or can we just dive straight in? The cameras were a good excuse to just dive in.

Speaker 2 And don't get me wrong, I'm antagonistic with my parents. I mean, you're antagonistic with everyone.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, so it wasn't for the show as much as it, that is something that I would love to do to my dad at any moment in life. And, like, we're on this road trip, so why not now?

Speaker 2 Like, it like it kind of just came up. I'm like, I wanted to show him my boyfriend and I showed him a picture.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and you showed him a picture of him naked in the bathroom mirror.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I was like, Come on, Gerard. Because he was hot there, and I was like, hey, look, no, he's hot.

Speaker 4 I was like, I wouldn't even show my parents a picture of my girlfriend in a bikini as the first picture. Come on, Gerard.

Speaker 2 You know, look.

Speaker 4 And this is, as this is a black person to a black parent, parent, I was like, come on, Gerard. But it's like, you haven't been beaten in a long time.

Speaker 2 I know, but what? You've forgotten everything. What Victoria-era chamber game of politics are we playing here? Where I'm supposed to, like, no, okay, a man I think is hot that I like having sex with.

Speaker 2 Yes. And I like having sex, and this is who I am.
And I want to be able to say anything to anybody.

Speaker 4 But here's what I feel sometimes, right? And again, I am not trying to calibrate you. This is what I felt as a person.

Speaker 4 There's a part of me that's going, Gerard, is this you having an inability to calibrate how much of you you want to be out because you've had so much of your life being in?

Speaker 2 Yeah, maybe. But, you know, here's the thing.
So, like, I'm saying the thing that needs to be said. Like, we need to hear it because it's true.
Like, that's my point of view.

Speaker 2 Like, if it's true, it needs to be said.

Speaker 4 Okay, so when it comes to you and your sexuality, I would always defer to you because I don't know what that's like, you know?

Speaker 4 But then there's a moment where it's you and your dad, and you know, you've gone back to his hometown, you've taken this drive, you've hung out with like his friends from way back, and you've, you've had these comments.

Speaker 4 It's beautiful, man. It's a beautiful, beautiful moment to watch.
And then the two of you are sitting,

Speaker 4 you know, by the fire, you're toasting marshmallows.

Speaker 4 And then you go in on your dad and

Speaker 4 you go in on him for things

Speaker 4 that you rightfully feel hurt about. You know, the fact that he had a secret family, the fact that he left you feeling like you don't know where you belong or how you should belong.

Speaker 2 He left you feeling shame. Yes.

Speaker 4 But you go in on him. And I mean, you go in and you go in and you go in and you go in.
And it's like a really painful moment where he says, he goes, I knew it. He says, I knew this would happen.

Speaker 4 I knew this was coming when you said we're going on the trip. And then he says,

Speaker 4 why are you making this public? Like, why are you dragging this out like that? And then you say,

Speaker 4 no, you made it public when you did it. And everyone in our neighborhood knew.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 4 And essentially he's like, yeah, but you made it public.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Speaker 4 So, first of all, do you understand where he's coming from?

Speaker 4 And even understanding that, do you still hold that position where you go, no, you know, Gerard's feelings and emotions come first in this equation?

Speaker 2 So all this is rooted in shame. Right.
When you think about it, okay, he knew.

Speaker 2 He knew before the cameras were up. He knew before he came to New York.
There's a phone call that could be made. Hey, what do you want to talk about? Do you want to talk about this?

Speaker 2 Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 Do you want to get this out? But he couldn't do that because of shame. And I couldn't do that because of shame.

Speaker 4 That's interesting.

Speaker 2 Like, that's why the cameras, I get it. It's unorthodox.
It's strange. but it was necessary for me.
We needed an excuse to say the things that we couldn't say to each other in private.

Speaker 2 These are questions I really want to know the answer to. There's a need to know the answer to that I can't ask without a trellis.
I need the support.

Speaker 2 The reason I like making it publicer is to try and eradicate the shame. I'm trying to free my father.
The shame is weighing on him. It's ruining his life.
My father, he has anxiety.

Speaker 2 He's afraid of run-ins with his other family.

Speaker 2 He doesn't want to go to his grandkids' birthday parties because somebody might take a picture and put it on Facebook and then the other family will get upset because when you didn't come to my he's very very afraid he's living

Speaker 2 he's crippled by fear i'm trying to set that man free and i'm trying to be as public as we've been private we've been living in shame and fear for so long and hbo is just the place to

Speaker 2 like if you i would be a high school one skydiving you think hbo is a better place than like therapy for instance i would like therapy too you can't force someone into therapy i offer it all the time okay like so this is just another form of therapy for me.

Speaker 2 Like, it's a, it's definitely, you know, baptism by fire, but it's therapy because it's out there. There are billboards directing people to watch it being put out there.

Speaker 4 We'll be right back after this short break.

Speaker 4 Your mom is maybe the most interesting character in this show for me.

Speaker 4 Because she presents the most complicated dynamic in this conversation.

Speaker 4 You talk about how you and your mom were super tight.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 we see you reunite with your mom in the show. And it's beautiful.
And she says, I dreamed of this day. And we see you and your nieces.
And everyone's happy.

Speaker 4 And then all of a sudden you know in almost classic girard style in the show you you're talking to her about being gay and what and she goes i accept you and i love you with all my heart if you choose to be gay then you choose to be gay and i accept you for that and your face switches in that moment and you go well i don't choose to be gay

Speaker 4 And she's like, yeah, well, the same way, you know, I would like a mother would learn to love a murderer, would learn to love. And you're just like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 4 You're saying it's like being a murderer.

Speaker 4 And one of the most beautiful moments turns into a tense moment yeah where you have this fundamental fight where she's like you're choosing this everything is a choice yes and this tension with your mom takes place over several episodes she's very religious yeah and now you've come along and you've said hey you have to choose between me

Speaker 4 and god

Speaker 4 there's a line that that that sort of perfectly sums up what we experience in the show and what I guess you experienced in your life between you and your mom.

Speaker 4 And it's when you're on stage and you say,

Speaker 4 you say you have such a complicated relationship with your mom

Speaker 4 because, on the one hand, all you want to do is protect her and love her, and on the other hand, you just want to destroy her.

Speaker 2 Talk me through that, like

Speaker 4 that emotion. Like, first of all, where do you stand today? And

Speaker 4 how do you deal with that? Because it's a real paradox of feeling.

Speaker 2 The parts I want to destroy are the parts that

Speaker 2 create the separation between us.

Speaker 2 The fact that she's watching God and not seeing me. I love my mother.
I feel like I understood her.

Speaker 2 I feel like I have been the manifestation of a lot of the blessings she prays for. She read every day a Bible verse that says,

Speaker 2 ask me and I will tell you things that you don't know and can't find out. I'm I'm the reason my father revealed his infidelity.

Speaker 2 She talks about blessings coming from God and him protecting you from harm and protecting you from having nothing. In some way, I'm a little jealous of God.

Speaker 2 I'm like, man, I'm like, you believe in God. I'm doing all this work.

Speaker 2 I'm doing all this work. And just, I just won't, I don't feel respected when her love comes with

Speaker 2 a caveat. When it's like, I respect you, but I also don't really believe you.
I think you're, you know, a 37-year-old going through a phase. Yeah, your soul's going to hell, but I love you.

Speaker 2 Like it just doesn't feel good. I have to come to terms.
She's not leaving God. And I know God's been really important to her.
And I don't want her to. I just want her to understand me.

Speaker 2 And look, with time and conversations, like conversations like what we had on the show.

Speaker 2 I think voicing that hurt allows us to not do it again or to at least have empathy for how the other person feels. Um, and I'm not saying that she's done everything wrong.
I've done, I've retreated.

Speaker 2 We, we both go to our corner

Speaker 2 because we're hurt. And some of my aggressive behavior has helped, like, just like, hey, going home, like, this is my boyfriend.
Like, this is reality.

Speaker 4 Yeah, when you see that in the show, it's, it's, um, it's, it's intense.

Speaker 2 Like, sit down. And this is a human being who deserves your respect.
I deserve your respect. If I don't put it in my parents' face, they'll never look at it.

Speaker 4 That's, that's an interesting, that's an interesting point.

Speaker 4 Cause I did think about that and I was like, I was like, I won't like the first thought I had was, come on, Gerard, surely there's a more diplomatic way to handle this.

Speaker 4 But then the other thought I had was, come on, Trevor. I think Gerard knows his parents more than you do.

Speaker 2 I just know that they won't.

Speaker 2 I grew up with them. I'm raised by them.
And so I know the only way to bring about change is through action. And so I take action.

Speaker 4 But it felt like to me, and this is where like I really relate to you. My mom's super religious.
Yes.

Speaker 4 But the thing I learned to do, you know, and I think time has helped me is I've also learned to communicate the way she does.

Speaker 4 I've also learned to understand the things that she's saying because we're not using the same language, especially because she's very religious. Yes.
You know what I mean? So

Speaker 4 while you are pushing to be understood, have you made an effort to try and understand her more, to try and live in her world, to speak to her through her world?

Speaker 4 Because you say some crazy shit to her as well. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Which is very funny. Yeah.

Speaker 4 That's very funny. One of the craziest lines I have ever heard is: you turn to your mom, you go bowling together.
Man, I don't think I'll ever forget this moment.

Speaker 4 You turn to your mom, and you say to her, You say, you know, mom, I've been reading that some people believe that boys aren't actually born gay.

Speaker 4 You know, they become gay. And you see her face light up, like, oh, yeah, you're coming around.

Speaker 4 And you go, like, yeah, and actually they become gay because they love their moms so much that they just want to like be them and they want to, you know, be with them.

Speaker 4 And they, you know, and you're like, so maybe I'm gay because i love you so much i love you so much mom and she's like oh thank you baby and then you say i love you so much mom i would suck a dick you're like i suck a dick mom that's how much i i suck i suck dicks for you and she her all of her happiness all of her everything goes away and she turns to you and she goes why would you say that

Speaker 2 You could see in that same episode, I asked her, what would she have me do? If you believe that

Speaker 2 I wasn't born gay and that there's a way to change that, how would I? Yeah. And she said, you have to talk to Jesus.
I said, what do I say? And she says, you asking me?

Speaker 2 I was like, yeah, pray, pray for me right now. And she has a moment and she prays and she tries to pray the gay away.

Speaker 2 I kind of immediately regretted it because it was like,

Speaker 2 oh, wow. Like now she thinks it's like on a time release.

Speaker 2 It really was funny. I thought color light was very funny.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I'm trying to listen. I'm trying to hear.
I would like for her, because I'm presenting as many possible solutions as I know for my world.

Speaker 2 Therapy, talking about things head on, the cameras, all of these are just my attempts to bring about some solution. She wants me to pray.
I grew up in the church. If I could have prayed it away,

Speaker 2 it would be gone. I tried.
I was praying. I used to pray it away.
I used to think, I mean, this is like a wild thing.

Speaker 2 When I was a kid, like just like getting home from school before my parents got off of work and I would like jerk off, I thought God was watching.

Speaker 2 So I would like jerk off the gay porn on the internet and then immediately jerk off the straight porn as if to cleanse myself. Like, see, God, I love pussy too, because God loves pussy.

Speaker 2 And I'm like, I'm like, see, I did it. I did it.
I've been trying my whole life.

Speaker 4 One thing I hope people know about this show, if you watch the clip online of you and Tyler the Creator, it seems like this show is all an awkward fest.

Speaker 4 It's just all about awkwardness and it's horrible.

Speaker 2 And it's, you know.

Speaker 4 But when you watch the show, it is funny, it's light. But the big thing for me, and I mean, obviously, I'm biased, I'm a comedian.
It's so funny, but like it's heartfelt funny.

Speaker 4 And when we see the relationship with your mom, there's one joke that she throws in that makes your face turn like hers, by the way.

Speaker 4 You bring your boyfriend over,

Speaker 4 not welcome.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And at the end of this very awkward time you've spent together, your mom's just been sitting there. She's not happy.

Speaker 4 You say that you're going to head out now because you're hungry. And your mom says, well, there's always McDonald's.

Speaker 4 And your face in that moment, you, you were as hurt and as shocked as she was when you made the jokes. Yeah.

Speaker 4 But in that moment, I was like, oh shit, this is where Gerard gets it from.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, no, she knows how, she knows how to attack. For sure.
Yeah. For sure.
And in the show, I don't think anyone's

Speaker 2 like, no one's innocent. No one's guilty.
We're all just human. I'm just trying to show the full range of my humanity.

Speaker 4 Yeah. In the beginning of the show, I was hoping a truck would run you over.

Speaker 4 I know you, by the way.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. But in the beginning of the show, like, I'm like, Gerard, I was like, nope, nope.
All right. Take this man off the earth.
And I don't say this to you because you hear.

Speaker 4 by the end of the show, I go, man,

Speaker 4 what a human being. And not like what a good human being, what a bad, just what a human being.

Speaker 4 What a look into

Speaker 4 everything that people are dealing with that we don't speak about publicly.

Speaker 4 Just all of it. And I'd love to know, because this has taken place over such a long period of time,

Speaker 2 like,

Speaker 4 Where are you now? Where is your family now? And if you were talking to somebody else who was in a similar position,

Speaker 4 how would you advise them? Or what would you say were some of the biggest learnings on how to get here? What would you have done differently?

Speaker 4 And what would you have sped up if you, if you had, like, what would you have, what would you have doubled down on to get to this place?

Speaker 2 So, I'll answer where we are now. I'm thankful anytime I talk to my parents and they ask about Mike.
That makes me very happy. How is he? How's he doing?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 my advice to anyone experiencing a rift with their family or anyone in their life is fight.

Speaker 2 Just fight. Use all of the tools that you have to fight.
And that's what I did. I

Speaker 2 used the tools I have as

Speaker 2 a man,

Speaker 2 the career that I've chosen. for the fight.
I'm fighting to keep my family together. I'm fighting for respect.
I'm fighting for love. And so fight really, really hard.
It's worth it.

Speaker 2 And go a step beyond.

Speaker 2 I see a lot of people using words like cringe or embarrassing or these things that are easily reasons not to have a conversation or reasons not to talk to someone because it will be too embarrassing or too cringe, if you will.

Speaker 2 Go beyond it. Like beyond cringe is freedom.
You know, go a step beyond that. I feel like I've been crucified by cringe and

Speaker 2 arose on Sunday.

Speaker 4 Your mom's not going to leave.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know. I know.
Just one more Jesus reference just for a rose.

Speaker 4 What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions and Fullwell73.

Speaker 4 The The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle.
Marina Henke is our producer.

Speaker 4 Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening.
Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?