Meet Jon Stewart – One of My Favorite People

Speaker 1 Thinking about this a lot and trying to wrap my mind around. Is the mic killing you? Sorry.

Speaker 2 Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry.

Speaker 1 I've been thinking about this a little bit.

Speaker 1 You can pull it with you. You can...

Speaker 1 That's what I want to do.

Speaker 2 I want to make a dynamic mic. I'll probably rock a little bit too.

Speaker 1 I want to get like a dynamic one that moves with people.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'll try not to fidget.

Speaker 1 I'll just sit. No, I'll just keep watching.

Speaker 2 You know what happens when I'm I'm taping is the sound engineer just keeps telling me to not rock my desk because I have a tendency to like do this and this and this.

Speaker 1 You make the sounds. That's right.

Speaker 1 I would hit the buttons. That was mine.

Speaker 2 You would hit the buttons?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, you know, you have the buttons on the bottom of your suit. And so I would always be doing this on the desk.
Yeah, yeah. And then I think they told me this week, week three of hosting.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 And I don't think I've ever put my hands down the same on a table because I was so shit scared of screwing the whole thing up.

Speaker 2 You know? I was like, what is Trevor has turned to jumpers?

Speaker 1 why is that well

Speaker 2 he had a real button issue

Speaker 1 this is what now

Speaker 2 with trevor noah

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Speaker 1 Welcome, friend. How are you? Thank you.

Speaker 2 Nice to see you.

Speaker 2 This is exciting to do this without headphones on. Like, I so don't do podcasts where you go and sit with people.

Speaker 1 I'm shocked that you leave the house, to be honest.

Speaker 2 I don't do it very often.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Only for you.

Speaker 1 Can I tell you? I really take that as a... Yeah.

Speaker 1 I was thinking that the other day. I was like, John doesn't go

Speaker 1 anywhere. That's correct.
I met you not going anywhere.

Speaker 2 It's one of the worst reputations to have because when you do show up somewhere, people are just like, What? So, what's going on? Like, it almost feels like your parents have come home.

Speaker 2 Why are you here? And you're like, I am allowed to go out. I just mostly choose to not.

Speaker 1 Have you always been that way?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Why?

Speaker 2 It's one of the reasons I think I got into stand-up. I am very,

Speaker 2 which seems sort sort of contradictory, but I'm very introverted. And so I don't, I don't get energy from socializing.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. No, I'm the same.
Okay. You're the same.
Okay. Yeah.
I'm the same.

Speaker 2 So like when I was younger, I would bartend to give me the illusion of being out. So I worked in bars forever because you felt like you were out.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But you didn't have the idea where you had to like sit with somebody and socialize. You were doing something.

Speaker 2 So you could focus on task at hand. Comedy, same way.
You show up, it's a Friday night, it's a Saturday night. People are out there on dates, they're having fun.
And what are you doing?

Speaker 2 Looking at my notes.

Speaker 2 No, no, no. I'm going on in five.

Speaker 1 I don't have, I can't.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 I always prefer that.

Speaker 1 Huh.

Speaker 1 No, so okay, here's the thing. I'm like that, but I don't prefer it.

Speaker 2 Oh, really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 All my friends, I think I've strategically chosen because they push me and kick me out of the house. Oh, really? All of them.
Every single one of my friends.

Speaker 2 So modern communication has very much for me quantified the extent of my isolation because your phone will tell you numerically how many people tried to get a hold of you that way on your text or on your emails.

Speaker 2 And when I tell my kids, they just feel like, do you live in a bomb shelter? Like, what, you know, I'll be like, I got three texts today.

Speaker 1 And they'll be like, all day, three. Yeah, but you've always been a Luddite.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 Like, you've always, always been this isn't going well. This is going great.
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 This is going great. I'm being exposed.

Speaker 1 No, no, no. You know, you know what I think it is? It's, it's funny.
Um,

Speaker 1 look, I mean, I only really came to the U.S. properly when you brought me, you know,

Speaker 1 you called me.

Speaker 2 I called you on the phone.

Speaker 1 It's still the most random call of all time, John.

Speaker 2 And still the one that I still don't understand.

Speaker 2 I called up Trevor.

Speaker 2 I saw your stand-up. I saw like two minutes of your stand-up.
And I was like, that guy could do my job. This is very upsetting.

Speaker 1 What stand-up was this? Because I was only doing like South African stuff back.

Speaker 2 No, no, no. It was a special that you had done.

Speaker 1 From South Africa, though.

Speaker 2 I believe it was from South Africa. But I watched it.
You know, I've been doing this for a long time. And we always have tapes and we're always looking for new talent.

Speaker 2 And there was an authenticity, but also

Speaker 2 an insight. Like, there was just

Speaker 2 you had,

Speaker 2 you had it. Son, let me tell you something.

Speaker 2 I don't know how to define it, but you had it.

Speaker 1 It wasn't the dimples. It was a whole other thing.

Speaker 1 It was.

Speaker 2 No, I just remember the material was so like insightful, thank you, but well, like, there was a warmth. There was all these things that I thought, like, oh, that dude, like, that doesn't just happen.

Speaker 2 You can't fake that. You can't,

Speaker 2 there is a certain level of artistry, craftsmanship, those authenticity, those things that come together. And you smell it like immediately.

Speaker 2 And also the converse. Like I can pop a tape in and go like, oh,

Speaker 2 the audience is nervous for that poor fellow.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Like that's, take that out.

Speaker 2 It's sort of like, what is it, Dave Port Noise, one bite, everybody knows the rules. Like same thing with comics a lot of times.
Like one bite, everybody knows the rules.

Speaker 2 And you watch it and go like, eight, six, nine, two.

Speaker 2 You had that.

Speaker 2 And it's rare.

Speaker 2 And I'd watched enough tapes to know that it was rare. And I go, who's that guy? And they go, this guy, Trevor No.
And I go, let's have him do this show.

Speaker 2 And they said, well, he's not, you know, he's not from here. He's from,

Speaker 1 let's call him.

Speaker 2 And I was like,

Speaker 1 I'm Willie Wonka.

Speaker 2 And I'm about to call this dude and blow his fucking mind and say, like, son, your ship has come in.

Speaker 1 And so

Speaker 2 we called Trevor and we're like, Jon Stewart of the Daily Show, New York City, and

Speaker 2 we'd like you to come in and do a bit for us. And you're like, well, my world tour doesn't end for another two months.

Speaker 2 And I was like, and it took me a while to figure out, like, oh, this opportunity is an enormous constriction of Trevor's visibility and a giant pay cut. No, but you know what?

Speaker 1 You know what it was for me? No, you know what it was for me, actually. I'll say this.

Speaker 1 I was ignorant, but I'm happy that I was, I'm really pleased that I was ignorant, right? So, I've never told you this,

Speaker 1 so I never knew who you were, right? Right, right. So, you called me, and which was also crazy, you called me, not like an executive producer, not you called me directly.

Speaker 1 I will, I've told this, this part before, but like, I was, I'll never forget, I was in Harrods in London, the mega store that sells everything to the richest people in the world.

Speaker 1 Not because I could afford it.

Speaker 2 I was having tea with the queen.

Speaker 1 I wish

Speaker 1 I was looking, I was staring at an underwater scooter thing like a moped you know like the old school submersible things yes it's like that a thing that only three people in the world have exactly and two of them are sultanates yeah i'm staring at this i'm looking at the price i'm going how long would it take me but where would i keep it how i don't live near the ocean i but this was just the culmination of my life's everything

Speaker 1 and almost in a perfect way My mom always says, ask God and God will respond. I went, God, how would I ever be able to afford this underwater moped? And my phone rings.

Speaker 2 Now, does your mom know God was a Jew in this story?

Speaker 1 Does she have any sense?

Speaker 2 She'd been cheering for the wrong team.

Speaker 1 My friend, what do you mean? My mom is, my mom converted to Judaism many long ago. What? Yeah, my mom been like...

Speaker 2 She might have taken my place.

Speaker 2 I got out of the business at 13.

Speaker 1 So you call me. And this was like, I think what I remember most about it was the comedy of the conversation because you call me, like, hi, can I please speak speak to Trevor? Trevor.

Speaker 1 I was like, oh, speaking. You're like, hey, Trevor, this is, my name is Jon Stewart.
I'm a comedian from New York City. Jon Stewart.
You said, you may, or you may or may not know me.

Speaker 1 I said, I'm sorry, I don't know you. And you said, your wording was so specific and it was so funny.
You said, nor should you have. Nor should you have.

Speaker 1 It was so self-effacing. I loved it.
You said, nor should you have. And then you said, well, I, I host a little show.
I run a little show in New York City. It's called The Daily Show.

Speaker 1 And I was like, oh,

Speaker 1 no, but then I said, oh, I've heard of that show. And you said, as you should, as you should.

Speaker 1 And I remember in that moment thinking, I don't know who this person is. But I've talked about this with every comedian.
Comedian. There is a silliness that comedians possess.

Speaker 1 And you know when I felt it is like, I remember when I did Comedians in Cars with Jerry. Yes.
Right.

Speaker 1 Jerry said to me, I am yet to meet a comedian who answers another comedian's phone call in a normal voice.

Speaker 1 We all have like a,

Speaker 1 Johnny Boy, well, hello. There's just like a comedians, it doesn't matter what it is.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's a silliness. I always answer as the queen.

Speaker 1 There you go.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 1 You see.

Speaker 1 No, youngsters don't hear right now. Don't see if I can rise.

Speaker 1 This is what I mean. So it's almost like a, it's, it's, it's the badge that we, we, we have at work.
You know, like, can you come in? Yeah, yeah, I'm a comedian. Here's my badge.

Speaker 1 So I go, this man is definitely a comedian i know nothing about his world i think i've heard of the daily show

Speaker 1 and the crazy thing for me was i i think you know this part just from the world but you don't know for me the daily show had the international edition right yes right there used to be cnn i think on cnn yes like it was a news show so in my world

Speaker 1 you used to come after christian armon paul no Richard Quest. Right.
And like a bunch of other CNN. I mean, the internet.
And you know the international one wasn't like the U.S.

Speaker 1 It wasn't just talking heads that shout at each other it was very welcome this is cnn yeah hong kong markets have opened and cnn is on the ground right it's the actual news that goes on around the world the thing that americans are yeah utterly and blissfully when they were when they were reporting live yeah from beirut it was live in beirut it was that that's cnn once a week and then this man would come on

Speaker 1 And I think I saw you maybe twice, but you left an indelible impression in my brain.

Speaker 2 Why?

Speaker 1 Because I didn't know what was happening, but I remember thinking, there is no way this man is going to keep his job. I don't know when I found him in this journey,

Speaker 1 but he's not going to keep his job because you,

Speaker 1 you, and the news, and then you told a joke, and then the audience laughed. But then at some point, they like sort of groaned.
And they, but I didn't know there was the daily show.

Speaker 1 And then it went back to normal news. They're like, all right, now it's time for someone.
It's Africa focused. Here we go.
And I remember thinking, damn, that guy's going to lose his job.

Speaker 1 He's going to lose his job.

Speaker 1 it's why context is so important you know you say that yeah but can i tell you i genuinely believe one of the things that has happened a lot of people ask me about cancel culture right always i'm sure they've asked you always and the thing i keep saying is and i genuinely believe this I don't think there's such a thing as cancel culture.

Speaker 1 I think people criticize someone if they don't like them. I think people have more platforms to criticize now.
Yes. Right.
Before people would write a letter, like my mom used to do that.

Speaker 1 She would write letters to the broadcaster.

Speaker 2 In upset.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like

Speaker 2 letters to the editor.

Speaker 1 One I remember was she wrote a letter. There was a South African Our Arby's, essentially in South Africa.

Speaker 1 And they had a hamburger.

Speaker 1 And the ad was Handel's Messiah.

Speaker 1 So it's like, oh, hallelujah. Hallelujah.
It was that vibe.

Speaker 1 My mom only knew that song. as a church song.
Right.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 this woman looked at me and she said, did they just

Speaker 1 sell a hamburger using the Lord's music? And I didn't know it was classical music. Neither did she.
She wrote a whole letter. We went, we mailed it together to the broadcaster.

Speaker 1 They responded very kindly and they said, hey, actually, this was not a Christian song. It's been co-opted by religious organizations, but originally, da-da-da-da-da.

Speaker 1 And she read the letter to me and we sat there together like, oh, I was maybe, wow, 10 years old, 12 years. But I remember even then being like, damn, we just learned something today.

Speaker 1 This is new.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 to that point, in that world,

Speaker 1 context is everything.

Speaker 1 And when I think of like cancel culture and comedy and all these things, I go,

Speaker 1 most of the time,

Speaker 1 comedians would be telling a joke in the context of a comedy space.

Speaker 2 Correct.

Speaker 1 Right? Yes. You're on stage.
The audience is sitting there. We all know this is comedy.
So if you look at an audience member and say, I wish you had died on the Titanic,

Speaker 1 they know you're in a comedy space. That's right.
Now what happened is they take that joke out of the comedy space.

Speaker 1 The algorithm sends it to somebody whose grandfather died on the Titanic. Oh,

Speaker 2 that's, that's dead on. That's so fucking brilliant.
That's exactly, that's exactly it. And even the people

Speaker 2 that know the context do it.

Speaker 2 do that same thing

Speaker 2 because they want to weaponize it oh yeah to hurt you oh yeah the other thing that happened in the rise of social media are those that whose livings now depend on stirring the pot so I used to do a bit this must be 1996 95 something

Speaker 2 it was about Jewish community the black community Jews and blacks you know why are we so mad at each other you know come from the same history 2,000 years of abuse we've just expressed our sufferings differently as people blacks developed the blues Jews complain we just never thought of putting it to music you know second

Speaker 2 I did a whole thing My grandmother wrote a blues song. Gee, it's drafty in here.
You know, the whole thing.

Speaker 2 And then there was a bit about Jews and blacks. We shouldn't fight each other.
We should get together and get whitey.

Speaker 1 Oh, I'm sorry, wrong crowd. You know,

Speaker 2 I'll go online now on like V-Dare websites or like white supremacist websites.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 My face, like

Speaker 2 in like sort of

Speaker 2 as gray as they can possibly make it

Speaker 2 in the thing, Jews and blacks should get whitey. And then, like, this Jew thinks that.
And

Speaker 2 they know, of course, they know,

Speaker 2 but it's their way of

Speaker 2 it's an intimidation tactic.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 what social media is, is like when we do a gig, whenever you do a gig, there's always people that aren't digging it. You feel it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You work the

Speaker 2 cellar. There's always going to be a couple of tables that are like.

Speaker 1 yeah yeah there's always the plus ones

Speaker 2 it's the people who came with a friend didn't necessarily come for you or the comedy that's right and then like let's see what happens we're not we're not down yes it would bother you in the moment then you go upstairs you have a plate of hummus with your friends you start goofing off all that stuff and you walk away social media is after that show then you have to ride home in the cab with them while they talk about how bad you are.

Speaker 1 I love that.

Speaker 2 And that's so it's it's there man, that's such a great analogy. it's there to get you

Speaker 2 it's there and it works. People say like you should ignore it.
It's sort of like, hey, let me ask you, if you're walking down the street and someone yells your name, do you turn around? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Like, of course you do.

Speaker 1 You're fucking human. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So you try your best not to allow it to infiltrate the parts of you that are more stable, but it's very hard to just.

Speaker 1 It's, I think it's very

Speaker 1 unhuman

Speaker 1 to do that of course

Speaker 2 and that is the economy that's grown up around it so what they do is they try to find the thing

Speaker 2 that they think will be most upsetting now obviously it loses its efficacy after a while like for me the funniest part was Like my dog Dipper died. I don't know if you ever met Dipper.

Speaker 2 I used to bring him to the show. Three-legger.
He's the greatest dog in the world. He died.
I announced it on the show as a blubbering idiot.

Speaker 2 And people on social media started responding very positively. So I did a thing I never do, which is post some shit.
Here's some pictures of me and my family when we first met Dipper.

Speaker 2 We met him at a shelter down on Crosby Street. And people started in the comment section of those pictures responding with pictures of dogs they had lost.
There, sort of.

Speaker 2 So the first picture was like, this is, you know, Coco, our Cavalier King Charles. I hope that she and Dipper are playing at the Rainbow Bridge.
And, you know, this is Mr.

Speaker 2 Muggles, you know, our cocker spaniel, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the third one was, why did you change your name, Jew?

Speaker 2 And I was like, oh, right.

Speaker 2 It's got nothing to do with

Speaker 2 their lives.

Speaker 2 Whatever it is, either financially or emotionally, that's their job.

Speaker 1 But some of them, you you know what the worst thing is? Some of them aren't even real.

Speaker 2 That's the scariest thing, John. Quite possibly.
No,

Speaker 2 but a lot of them are

Speaker 2 not only real, but become famous.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's true. Yeah.
That's true. But I think that's what makes it sad for me is when we go to context.
Yeah. I've seen this happen to you.
I spend a lot of time analyzing online.

Speaker 1 I don't spend time actually online. I don't care for it much.
Right. But I love the behind the scenes machinations of it.
So I sit with engineers. They teach me about algorithms.
I sit down. Really?

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah, I love this. I love, love, love this.

Speaker 2 Love it to bits.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 one of the things I've really loved is seeing how information gets disseminated, but specifically sent to different groups of people for

Speaker 1 like a

Speaker 1 really, really distinct purpose, you know? And then I started, they showed it to me even on the tiniest things that you and I have done, for instance. Right.

Speaker 1 So I hosted the White House correspondence dinner

Speaker 1 as well.

Speaker 1 Half of my correspondence dinner was played on Fox News, was played on conservative sites, was

Speaker 1 everything I said about Joe Biden, the Democrats, MSNBC. If you've lost Trevor, no, it really were.
It were. Yeah, yeah.
You know, I never thought I'd say this, but

Speaker 1 this is quite funny.

Speaker 1 I guess that's what happens when you get him away from the daily show writers.

Speaker 1 Then, I mean, yeah, looks like he was woke.

Speaker 1 You know, I guess every now and again, he can be fucked. Ironically, it was the Daily Show Writers that I was with.

Speaker 1 I mean, you roll, you know, you roll with the crew. So, but it was, and then on the other side as well, people got the clips, right? But they show who they sent it to.
It's so weird.

Speaker 2 It's like it's not a they send it to people purposefully.

Speaker 1 Yes, but they also send partially. That's the key thing.
I think that's the most insidious.

Speaker 1 So back in the day, Jon Stewart is at a desk, and Jon Stewart says, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 You see that? You might not like three, you might not like seven, but you saw that this man counted to 10. That's right.
Now what they do is they go, take the seven, take the three,

Speaker 1 send it to all the people who hate John for saying those numbers. The other numbers, let's get it to these people and we're going to split that.

Speaker 1 And so now what happens is you have a world where people hate other people, not because they know them, but only because they know them by a fraction of the thing they are saying or doing, which I think is, I think that's like,

Speaker 1 it's even more terrifying because.

Speaker 2 absolutely.

Speaker 2 Well, it's also what it, what it tells you is the principle is merely conflict. The principle is outrage and conflict.
But,

Speaker 2 you know, I always wondered where

Speaker 2 social media fit in. You know, those videos of like a squirrel decomposing? Like where the squirrel is the content and you just see over time, you're like,

Speaker 2 every single part is going to be brought back into nature. Some of it's going to go around as nitrogen.

Speaker 2 That's what's the economy that we live in in terms of ideas is not really an economy of ideas. It's an it's an economy of

Speaker 2 fragments, of fragments of ideas that are not cohesive or coherent or contextual, but they are monetized. And the aggregators come in.

Speaker 2 Something I actually wanted to throw on the show on the Mondays is

Speaker 2 this idea somehow that social media resembles in any way free speech or that it resembles in any way the town square because those are

Speaker 2 those are neutral vessels that you fill with ideas. So let's say I go to a town square and it's a place where people come together and it's an

Speaker 2 amalgamation of ideas and thoughts and things and a gathering spot. So I come in and I go, Severance.
Oh my God, Severance is so good.

Speaker 2 And then a couple of people come over and they hear about it and they want to talk about it because they've got some opinions on it. And then one other person walks by and goes, you're a Jew.

Speaker 1 And I go, what?

Speaker 2 Go, yeah, no, you're a Jew. You changed your name.
You're a Jew. And I go, oh, yeah, no, we're, we're talking about severance.

Speaker 2 I go, yeah, no, I just, I was notified that you were here and I just wanted to come in and go, you're a Jew. That's social media.
That's the algorithm, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 So then I go, I think I'm going to leave.

Speaker 2 And as I'm walking away, the town square goes, hey, before you go, there's someone you might want to check out. It's the Yuraju guy.

Speaker 2 And these little tribes, what they're trying to get you to do is be provoked so that you stop and you engage some more. The town square doesn't benefit the longer you stay in an argument.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 And it's such an interesting idea that we think it's free speech, but it's not speech. It's ultra-processed speech.

Speaker 2 It's speech in the way that Doritos are food.

Speaker 2 It's something that has been designed by people in lab coats to get past the parts of your brain that protect your mental health or your...

Speaker 2 But we don't think of it in that way. We think of it as a pay-in to this right that we have or an example of the highest aspiration of free speech when in actuality,

Speaker 2 It's toxic,

Speaker 2 designed as such. Whatever the mental version of obesity and diabetes is, that's what it's designed for.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I've only been thinking about only because of

Speaker 2 where we're at with speech in this country and how it's been co-opted as this incredible value on the right.

Speaker 2 They're only allowing it to go on the right because they view it as

Speaker 2 helpful to their larger cause, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, societal ideological ideological battles aren't capitalism, communism, or socialism, communism, or any of those other kinds of democracy, totalitarianism. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's woke, unwoke.

Speaker 2 And for them, social media is a powerful unwoke multiplier. It amplifies that feeling for whatever reason in terms of virality.
Do you remember the, it was another,

Speaker 2 I think it was a hearing where it was Facebook, it wasn't Twitter, and they made Zuckerberg turn and apologize. Oh, yeah, I remember that.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, what are you going to say to the daughters up there?

Speaker 2 I think it was that they had purposefully targeted 13-year-old girls at their low ebb.

Speaker 1 Right. And I think it was Instagram that was the worst offense.
That's the end. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And now, you know, that was back when he had the bowl cut.

Speaker 1 He was still. This is before he had the swag switch.

Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.
Give me the Prince Valiant, but not so long. You know, I don't want to look like a hippie.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 and now they've given them all permission to just be

Speaker 2 stop pretending like there's something about this moment that i appreciate because

Speaker 2 the undercurrent of corruption and the underlying quid pro quo and transactional nature of the way the world works

Speaker 2 is now just, it used to be hidden. And every now and again, they would call them and go, apologize to the girls and now they're just like hey

Speaker 2 you're all right and they've made it explicit yeah it's now

Speaker 2 and without shame it's in some ways they've come out of the closet they're finally being yeah themselves they are and now we know what we're up against which i kind of you prefer that i prefer it

Speaker 1 i would say uh trump

Speaker 1 for everything he's done or whatever i go trump has been a black light on america's democracy Yes.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 You know, so every everything.

Speaker 2 For someone who stays in a lot of hotel rooms, that is not

Speaker 2 the analogy or metaphor, whatever I hope you go for there. And now I gotta...

Speaker 1 Oh.

Speaker 2 He is that thing on your hotel mattress that you didn't know was there, but had slept on for two nights.

Speaker 1 We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

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Speaker 1 I remember when I first came to the daily show, this is before I was, this is when I came and I met you and we were doing segments together. You didn't want to be on Twitter.

Speaker 1 You didn't want to be on Instagram. You didn't want, you know? No.

Speaker 1 You, you just had like, it wasn't even like a loathing. It was almost a,

Speaker 1 no, loathing at least means you're like against it. You almost had a, ah, this thing.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 For me,

Speaker 2 it felt like socializing. Like, I don't,

Speaker 1 I like being on social media felt like socializing.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 I like purpose.

Speaker 2 I like purposeful interaction. I like purpose.
I like intention. I like projects.
I like making things. I like, you know,

Speaker 2 woodworking, music. Do you still make furniture, by the way? I, I, once we moved, I don't no longer have my furniture-making equipment.
Yeah. Uh, but I loved it.

Speaker 1 Like, because I heard this about you and I was like, this can't be real. No, it's real.
It's real. What did you make? Oh, God.

Speaker 2 Dressers.

Speaker 2 No, John. Bed.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I thought you were going to tell me like a little

Speaker 1 furniture. Oh, yeah.
Like big on.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I made

Speaker 2 our kids' first changing table.

Speaker 2 and then we took a uh a little bans on cut out we used to have uh cats and so we would cut out the shape of cats in the bottom of it so that they could go in and go into their uh into their litter boxes was this where did you get this from how do how do you just go into carpentry the funny thing is you just go into it so i'm always looking for ways to quiet my mind

Speaker 2 that are not, you know, in the old days, it was drugs and alcohol. Right.
So, you know, once you wake up in a crack house in East St.

Speaker 2 Louis at four in the morning and go, oh, I think I'm not making good decisions. You try and come up with other ways that you can quiet the noise.

Speaker 1 Are you actually saying this?

Speaker 2 Am I actually saying that you woke up in a crack house? That's correct. Yeah, this was obviously years ago.

Speaker 1 Yeah, maybe

Speaker 2 many, many years ago. It wasn't.

Speaker 1 It's been a couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 No, it was, I was working.

Speaker 1 It's like I knew you as a guy who smoked a lot.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 They were all

Speaker 2 sort of

Speaker 2 the product of a mind that I had trouble quieting. Right.

Speaker 2 And so when I'm busy, I am healthier.

Speaker 2 And when I am not busy, I was very unhealthy because, you know, your mind, it doesn't take long for your mind to go from, you know, hey, that was a good set to you failed everyone that ever loved you.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And trying to find your way. And this is, I mean, I'm talking about

Speaker 2 early 90s, mid 90s, like bad.

Speaker 2 So I had to find other ways. Now, then it was, you know, smoking helped, different things.

Speaker 2 But I found these kinds of

Speaker 2 hand to material projects. helped me disappear for hours.
And it was, it's like,

Speaker 2 I think what you would imagine a deprivation tank. There's a peace in it.
And when you have that peace, when you come out of it, it's not as though the benefit of it evaporates. It stays with you.

Speaker 2 It's, it keeps you sort of in a grounded state. And so

Speaker 2 I think that's why I was always like really drawn to it is I could just disappear in it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 you would build something. So, you know, the tangible part of having something that was the fruit of that labor was wonderful.

Speaker 2 It was a fun thing, but that's not why. The why is the hours of measuring and sanding and

Speaker 2 fixing and fitting things together. And now I'm finding that in music.
You know, I took up drums like

Speaker 2 eight years ago, seven years ago.

Speaker 2 And that's another

Speaker 1 of that.

Speaker 2 The benefit of just

Speaker 2 experiencing and feeling this other state, right? My normal state of being vibrates too hot. It just does.
I don't know how to stop it.

Speaker 2 So these things, the old interventions, as George Carlin said, like, they work for a bit,

Speaker 2 but after a while don't work.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, but you find these other ways. And as I've gotten older, i think the frequency you vibrate at a slightly less intense frequency so that helps as well

Speaker 2 but you know they're it's very self-destructive to try and stop that if you don't do it in a way that

Speaker 2 you know has an idea towards longevity yeah like you can stop it yeah but the things that stop it are generally the things that also stop you like it's it's in some ways it's a chemotherapy like you know drugs and alcohol can stop you from vibrating like that,

Speaker 2 but you have to, you have to be cognizant of like, what else am I killing? Yeah. You know, these other things stop it in a much more

Speaker 2 sort of positive, productive, sustainable way. So that's, you know, that's been great.
You've blown my mind. Really?

Speaker 1 Yeah, because

Speaker 1 I've always seen you, especially in my life, as like a like Yoda. I always call you, I call you Jewish Yoda.

Speaker 2 He means that because I'm short and

Speaker 2 incredibly old, maybe 900 years and slightly green. I don't know what the lighting's like in there, but the reflection off that.

Speaker 1 We clearly have very different perceptions of Yoda. For me, it was because here I was, this random straggler in the universe.

Speaker 1 And I was just like doing my thing. Yes.
Yoda comes along and goes, hey, I'm going to teach you how to raise a spaceship out of the mud.

Speaker 2 But I go, the force was strong in this.

Speaker 1 You see, I'm like, I don't even know what the force is.

Speaker 1 I don't know what the force is.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And then I learn how to use a lightsaber.
And then the next thing you know, it's Darth Vader and Palpatine in my life.

Speaker 1 I'm getting death threats from the starship troopers. You're welcome.
What did I tell you?

Speaker 2 I think I told you once I go, this is, you know, you're going to look at this like, oh, what a great opportunity. I'm like, but I know the truth.

Speaker 2 The truth is, it's really a Twilight Zone episode where like a guy who has been sentenced to guard this one thing finds somebody that he can hand the key to and go, now it's you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you gave me, you gave me something that I think nobody gave you, I think, and that was the wisdom on the other side of it.

Speaker 2 Well, genuinely, you gave me whatever I, whatever I had accrued at that point, because I also

Speaker 2 had gone into it so blind.

Speaker 1 But that's what I mean. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I also knew no matter what,

Speaker 2 no matter how carefully we crafted it, no matter how much you and I like

Speaker 2 shared about frustrations or look out for this,

Speaker 2 it's always going to be hard. Like, it's not like that made it easy for you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but if somebody tells you there's a weight on the ground and they tell you that this weight will be the hardest thing you have ever lifted in your life,

Speaker 1 when you go to it and it is the hardest thing you've ever lifted in your life, your expectations have been met. And it doesn't mean that the weight lessens in any way.
It doesn't lighten the load,

Speaker 1 but it does mean that you are doing the right thing. This is why I knew when I saw you.
No, you're doing it the right way. Think about things.
Yeah, you're doing it the right way.

Speaker 1 So, you know, while I was doing it, I wasn't going, this is going wrong. I was going, oh man, this is hard.
The daily show is easily the hardest thing I've ever done, like doing in life, genuinely.

Speaker 1 I've had a hard life, but the daily show is the hardest thing I've actively done. Yes.

Speaker 2 That is the hardest, right? And in a work environment.

Speaker 1 Yeah, completely. Completely.
Yeah. And so the reason I say it blows my mind is because I go,

Speaker 1 from the time I met you, like people would say, oh man, John used to be rock and roll. But when they said rock and roll,

Speaker 1 I thought they just meant like leather jacket and smoking

Speaker 1 because I've genuinely I've met few human beings who are more

Speaker 1 Let's put it this way. Yeah first time we were gonna do a segment on the daily show you tricked me because you didn't tell me we were gonna do a segment.
Yes. All right.
You said come and hang out.

Speaker 1 I came to hang out. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We just like moseyed around the office. I'd see you, you know, pottering from one part to the other.
You go down to the, you know, field department. You're going to do.

Speaker 1 And then we chat in the moments that you had free, we chat, we chat, we chat, we chat. And then one of the conversations, you said, what do you think of New York?

Speaker 1 And I said, well, I don't know, man, the potholes. I said, what is this place? And we started talking about it.
And you were like, what's it like where you from?

Speaker 1 I was like, well, the potholes aren't this bad. And we had this whole conversation.
We had this whole. And then you said,

Speaker 1 we need that on the show.

Speaker 2 Yes, that's a good bit.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but beyond it being a good bit, you saw something that I would have never seen.

Speaker 1 And it was a deeper commentary on the idea of America's exceptionalism versus the world and what the, I was just going, hey man, the roads here are not what I expected.

Speaker 1 So when I hear you saying this, and I think for most people, if they go like Jon Stewart taking drugs, drinking in a hole,

Speaker 1 and then we see this man who is easily, and I say this to everyone, one of the wisest human beings I've ever met. That's very genuine, no, but genuinely.

Speaker 1 And not wise in like a, I know everything way, but rather in you can look at a thing you don't know and go, I don't know anything,

Speaker 1 but this is what I think it might not be or be. Right.
You know, which is what I think a lot of the time wisdom is. Based on my life, this is how I'm going to perceive the situation.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 And take and take nothing for granted. Because that's, you know.
And that's where your upbringing and those things, there is a perspective to be given from,

Speaker 2 you know, it's a humility, right?

Speaker 2 If you understand the fragility of everything that you experience, you don't ever get to that place. It's sort of like the way I am with conspiracy theorists.

Speaker 2 Conspiracy theorists will say, like, hey, man, you know, I'm just asking questions. And I'm like, you're not actually just asking questions.

Speaker 2 Because if you were just asking questions, you'd want to listen for the answer and you'd want those answers. When I talk to those people, you know, they're like, hey, man, you're

Speaker 2 controlled opposition now. You used to question things.
And I'm like, I still question things. With conspiracy people, I'm not

Speaker 2 in any way objecting to their skepticism. Yeah.
I'm objecting to their certainty, right?

Speaker 2 If you remain skeptical, but not just of the narrative, but also of the counter-narrative, you have to,

Speaker 2 and that is born of,

Speaker 2 in my mind, instability. I was born of instability.

Speaker 2 And so, in fact, I'm going to write a book called Born in Instability.

Speaker 2 It doesn't have the same.

Speaker 1 Where were you born?

Speaker 2 But I was born here, Manhattan, in Doctor's Hospital.

Speaker 2 It's not even there anymore.

Speaker 1 So you've literally just been.

Speaker 2 Well, my parents, my father was from Coney Island, from Brooklyn, and my mother was from Washington Heights. So

Speaker 2 I went to city college.

Speaker 1 I struggle to understand a lot of the time. I've spent many years trying to process it, but I've struggled to understand how

Speaker 1 you could see me and you

Speaker 1 when

Speaker 1 on the surface we have such different lives. Right.
Because I look at what you just did now.

Speaker 1 You just pointed at your whole life like this.

Speaker 1 You know?

Speaker 2 By the way, let the record show. I am correct directional.

Speaker 1 No, you are. You are.

Speaker 2 I am correct.

Speaker 1 But what I find

Speaker 1 the paradox of Jon Stewart for me is I've met few people

Speaker 1 who have traveled less and yet have gone to more places. No, I mean this.

Speaker 1 I know people who have traveled the world

Speaker 1 and have no idea.

Speaker 1 No, and have no perspectives and have no curiosities and have no learnings from it. So

Speaker 1 their bodies have gone to another country or another place,

Speaker 1 but their mind and their spirits has not.

Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? Yes. And yet I meet you.

Speaker 2 And I've been to Buffalo.

Speaker 2 Buffalo and Rocky.

Speaker 1 Did you travel more now?

Speaker 1 I hope so.

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Okay, this is good.

Speaker 2 I'm just saying that.

Speaker 2 No, I tried to because of the kids. Yeah, because of the kids.
They got older. Okay, okay.
And the time and all that. And we traveled more

Speaker 2 in my diaspora. We traveled more.

Speaker 1 And so. You mean in your diaspora?

Speaker 2 When I wasn't doing the daily show, when I wasn't doing...

Speaker 1 I've only heard of diaspora used like as an African thing.

Speaker 2 Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, it's a big Jewish thing.
The Jewish diaspora. By the way, we'll get into that later.

Speaker 2 The Jewish diaspora thing. I've been really considering this in my head.
It's something we can talk about later.

Speaker 1 Oh, we should definitely talk about it. All right.
You want to talk about it now? Who talked about it right now? Let's talk about it right now.

Speaker 2 So I've been thinking about this. This is in a larger context of good Jew, bad Jew, right? So

Speaker 2 I'm clearly not religious. Okay.
I sometimes admire people of faith, but I can't get there. Like, I know.

Speaker 2 It's sort of like faking orgasms for me. Like, there's a certain like, yeah, like, and I'll do the people will say, like, oh, bow your head in in prayer.
And I'll be like,

Speaker 2 and then we'll, you know, we'll do Mona Silence. And I'll, but in the silence, I'm really like, I wonder, is anybody,

Speaker 2 oh, look at that dude over there. You know, I'm not really silent.

Speaker 2 So I don't, I don't get it, but I am Jewish. Like, it just is.
It is what it is. And it's born of that.
That's my family. They were Jewish.
Their parents were Jewish, whatever it was.

Speaker 2 But this idea somehow, and it ties into Israel, that

Speaker 2 whatever you were born as, you won't be safe unless you are somehow ensconced in some version of an ancestral home,

Speaker 2 I think is a really dangerous precedent.

Speaker 2 I think the idea that we must go home, like this is my, where I pointed, that's where I'm from.

Speaker 1 That's my home. Right.
Like,

Speaker 2 I can, I can triangulate where I'm at. This is where I feel most comfortable.

Speaker 2 This is where I'll always gravitationally come back to. I don't live in a diaspora.
I've been to Israel.

Speaker 1 I was like, wow,

Speaker 2 that's impressive. I could see why they wrote the Bible here.
It looks very, that's a lot of mountain. That's a lot of desert.

Speaker 2 But I reject the idea somehow that

Speaker 2 communities of people aren't whole

Speaker 2 unless they are able to repopulate some ancient version of where they believe is their source.

Speaker 2 Does that make sense? It does.

Speaker 1 It does make sense.

Speaker 2 And I don't know if that's applicable to the African diaspora, but for me,

Speaker 2 I think it's a dangerous precedent to tell people that they will never be safe

Speaker 1 unless they are somewhere else.

Speaker 2 I always feel like, well, then the job is to make us all safe here

Speaker 2 because this is my home. Yeah.
If that, so that's what I've been.

Speaker 1 Chappelle said something to that effect, which I, which I really appreciated. He said, we have to do a better job of making Jewish,

Speaker 1 and I paraphrase him, our Jewish brothers and sisters feel

Speaker 1 so safe that they do not need to defend Israel regardless of what it does, because they feel like that's the only place where they will be safe. That's right.

Speaker 1 You know, which I think is because it does.

Speaker 2 It puts you in a moment where you say to yourself,

Speaker 2 Oh, I have to because they're fighting for me. Right.

Speaker 2 But that can't be

Speaker 2 because that's

Speaker 2 then they have to be forced to dehumanize someone else.

Speaker 2 And that can't be.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 2 it's that cycle of always believing that there is this

Speaker 2 final move that we all have to make.

Speaker 2 And there is, you know, there is also a little bit of apocalyptic rendering in all that, which is there are many people who believe like all these pieces must be in place

Speaker 2 for the final fire.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 that's a strong... incentive that I didn't know about until I moved to America.

Speaker 2 Oh, they didn't do that.

Speaker 1 No, that was never a thing where I was from. There was no evangelical group who was saying, we need this to happen in Israel so that the prophecies can come true.

Speaker 1 So I only learned about it when I got here.

Speaker 2 What is, in terms of like African religious tradition,

Speaker 2 right?

Speaker 2 How similar is it to kind of the different variations that you see here? Is it like,

Speaker 2 is it proselytizing? Is it sort of,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 2 does it have as many different variations? Yes.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 I'm not a religious scholar. My mother actually is, but I'm not.

Speaker 2 Is that why she went to Judaism?

Speaker 2 She actually, comparison.

Speaker 1 No, she actually did. I think one of the reasons, no, really.
I asked her about this. I said to her, I was like, why? Why Judaism? And she said, I was always seeking the source.

Speaker 1 I always wanted to go deeper. She's like, okay, if I'm at Christianity, I want to know, but where does Christianity come from? And I'm going to go deeper and I'm going to go deeper.

Speaker 1 And then, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 So now, like, week in and week out, it's like her reading the Torah, sending me little scriptures and what, and it's like, I know when Purim is, I know I have to be in the mix.

Speaker 1 I'm always in the mix in that way. Right.

Speaker 2 You know, my mother sends me messages about knowing when Purim is as well.

Speaker 1 Different reason.

Speaker 1 So it's definitely as broad because

Speaker 1 there were so many parts of African religion that were stripped away by colonialism. Right.
So colonization comes in. A lot of African religion gets stripped away.

Speaker 1 And so I think for the most part, now you have a lot of hybridization. Right.

Speaker 1 So there's still some people who go like, I still believe in my ancestors, even though like strict Christianity will say you don't know. There's no such God is your only thing you're worrying about.

Speaker 1 And you don't speak to your ancestors. If you're Catholic, you can speak to Mary, but no one else.
And you know, it's that type of thing.

Speaker 1 So, and that for me, it was because I went to four or five churches every Sunday. So I lived in this most of my life.
We went to, I went to a Catholic school. Okay.
Right.

Speaker 1 And then I went to an interdenominational church, but then I also went to an Anglican church and then I went to Methodist church.

Speaker 1 But the thing I found across all of them is they just have a slightly different bent on one part of the why.

Speaker 1 At some point, they have a nexus that combines all of them.

Speaker 1 But the biggest thing I would say that's a difference

Speaker 1 when you talk about the African diaspora is

Speaker 1 I love that you had the bit blacks and Jews because my mom always says that. And because I always grew up saying that.
And I remember having to explain this once.

Speaker 1 I was having a conversation with a friend. It was around the time, I think LeBron James had a clip of himself up and a video clip.
And he was saying, like, we're going to make that Jewish money.

Speaker 1 We're going to be the Jews. You know what I mean? It was a whole thing.
Right.

Speaker 1 And he got, I mean, you can imagine, people were just like, LeBron, this

Speaker 1 anti-Semitic.

Speaker 1 And then he pulled the video down. He apologized.
It was a whole thing. It was a whole thing.

Speaker 1 And I was talking to a friend of mine who lives in LA. And he said, he's like, man, I can't believe LeBron did this.
And I said, I get what you're saying.

Speaker 1 and i'm not saying don't be offended however i think you are missing some context and some of the context you're missing is how jewish people have been perceived for the most part not speaking for all black people by black people sure because a lot of black people have gone there is only one other group we know of who has also been enslaved who has also been like chased out of different parts and places right who have also been ostracized we only know one group who's done that who we now perceive to be successful on the other side exactly and so i I know a lot of black people are going, man, we need to be, we need to be the Jewish, we need to be black Jews.

Speaker 1 We need to, and I was trying to explain to him, I was like, I get it from your perspective.

Speaker 1 You're not wrong, but I hope you do understand that a lot of it in like parts of hip-hop and a lot of it in black culture is when we used to get dressed on Sundays and you would go to church, you always had to look good.

Speaker 1 Your parents would put you in your nice clothes, right?

Speaker 1 And kids in the township in South Africa would say, Ao, utko, Jewish, which means you're wearing your Jewish.

Speaker 1 And it was, they said that because Hasids were always in like a

Speaker 1 yo, people would, we would grow up just be like, yo, these people are dapper, man.

Speaker 1 Yo, these people are dapper.

Speaker 2 Got your hair on point.

Speaker 1 That's what I'm talking about. You know, so that context, I think, is, is important.

Speaker 1 But I think the main difference is, just go back a little bit.

Speaker 1 Some of it I experienced, and I say all of this with the caveat that I don't speak for everyone ever, right?

Speaker 1 But I did notice in the United States, there was a similar idea around Africa and African Americans, the motherland, right? So there was this idea where people would go, you are not from here, right?

Speaker 1 People would say, go back to where you came from.

Speaker 2 That's right.

Speaker 1 And so a lot of black Americans would go, I will never be safe

Speaker 1 until I can go back to where I'm from. That's right.

Speaker 1 In the same way that you're saying, many Jewish people might go, amen, I will never be safe unless there is a place that is distinctly and specifically made for me.

Speaker 1 And then what would happen was, you know, a lot of African Americans would come to Africa. And I think on the one hand, they would be shocked by how it's not home.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 But there's one part of it that they would get, which is, oh, this is why.

Speaker 1 I eat this food, or this is why I hum like this, or these are my people who have informed me before I even knew I was going to exist.

Speaker 1 And there's a certain solace that comes in that.

Speaker 1 And to your point, I think sometimes we focus a little too much on the physical thing as opposed to the real thing. Yes.
The culture. That is the, that's the thing that should never die.
That's right.

Speaker 1 Do you get what I'm saying?

Speaker 2 And that's placeless. That's, that's, that, that you can put in your knapsack.
Yeah. When you try, you know, that's.

Speaker 1 And that's the thing people try to wipe out, by the way.

Speaker 2 Right. And it's the thing also that, and when it mixes and when it creates something

Speaker 2 new and unique, beautiful. And it, it has so many colors to it.

Speaker 2 And it reminds me that so much of all this, you know, when you say like, oh, they view Jews a certain way or they might view blacks this way or African Americans this way.

Speaker 2 No one has discernment for what they aren't. Your only discernment is for, like, I can tell, if I can look at Jews and be like, Sephardic, Ashkenazi, reform,

Speaker 2 like I can break down. I was in.
I love that.

Speaker 1 No one has discernment for what they aren't. You can't.

Speaker 2 It's the hardest thing in the world because it's hard enough to have empathy for what you aren't.

Speaker 1 You don't let alone discernment. It reminds me of someone said this once.
We're having a conversation and someone said,

Speaker 1 it was a white person and they said white liberal person. Very liberal.
Very, very liberal. Very liberal job.
Upper West Side. Very liberal.

Speaker 2 Although not for the school, not our school. You shouldn't please.

Speaker 1 Well, that's different because the kids, you got to understand they know each other.

Speaker 2 They have to be together. No, they know it's very different.

Speaker 1 And here's the other thing, too, is you don't want other kids slowing them down it's it's because it's unfair to them to be they want to be gastroenterologists it's really unfair you know max it's really he's so smart and i'm i max loves everyone and max loves everyone he loves everyone loves everyone i i want him to have more black friends he has to you know he has he really does we take you know we shop at benetton because

Speaker 1 because of the role and and We're chatting and this person went, you know, some people cross the road when a black man walks down towards them. It's like 3 a.m.
And they cross the road.

Speaker 1 And I would never cross the road. If I'm walking at 3 a.m.
and a black man, you know what I do? I walk, I keep my head up. And it was so funny because it was one white person.

Speaker 1 It was only black people they were talking to. And then we went, well, I mean, sometimes you got to cross the road.

Speaker 1 And they were like, what? And we went, well, what kind of black person? And they're like, what do you mean? And we said, well, you see, you're just saying a black person. Right.

Speaker 1 I know for a fact every black person walking down the street will look at a black person and not just see what you just said, not a black person. You'll be like, i don't know if i

Speaker 1 if i want to take a chance here but that discernment is something that a lot of people don't understand cross-culturally mike huckabee was on the show once and he was on i thought you said my cuckabee my my cuckabee my cuckabee i my brain for a second

Speaker 1 yeah my

Speaker 1 okay mike huckabee i had a cuckabee uh

Speaker 2 he was on and he was on one of his uh jeremiah ads of culture and how i think beyonce had just come out with it was the album where she was expressing her physical love for Jay-Z.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 My surfboard. Surfboard.
All these things. So she was.

Speaker 1 She was writing on that board, writing, writing on that board.

Speaker 2 This had upset my cuckabee

Speaker 2 terribly.

Speaker 2 Because of the children, Trevor, the children love Beyonce. And now the children are going to know that sometimes when a man loves a woman very much, they use them as surfboards.
You understand.

Speaker 2 It's a very dangerous precedent that's being set. So

Speaker 2 he's talking about the terrible nature of this kind of sexually explicit and suggestive.

Speaker 2 Mike Huckabee plays bass in a band.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 He had on Ted Nugent.

Speaker 2 Ted Nugent has a song called

Speaker 2 Wang Dang Sweet Poontang.

Speaker 2 And he has another song about banging like a 15-year-old girl with cat scratch fever or something like that that they played.

Speaker 2 And I said, Mike,

Speaker 1 you

Speaker 1 love, oh, that's old Ted.

Speaker 2 He's a good old boy.

Speaker 1 You don't understand.

Speaker 1 It's just, but that surfboard, I mean, come on, did you fucking, but the sweet boontang, come on. You know Ted.
He's a good old boy.

Speaker 2 And what people don't understand is like,

Speaker 2 They might, a car filled with black people with a lot of bass on it might scare scare the shit out of a white person. But do they understand their pickup truck with the gun rack

Speaker 2 blast in country

Speaker 2 is something that other people don't understand and are fearful of. But that car could pull up to my Cuckabee's picnic and it'd be fine.
Yeah. Ignorance is epidemic.

Speaker 2 Most people aren't malevolent, but it's, we can't discern the difference. I sat with, I was on LeBron's show, the barbershop.

Speaker 1 You know, the show, the barbershop.

Speaker 2 They went through, they were all talking about their barbershop. It's like, the craze, it was like me.

Speaker 1 Did you get a lineup or did you like, did you actually get your hair cut? No, no, no.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay. They don't know what to, I don't even know what to.

Speaker 2 But we're all sitting around, and it was, I think, Jared Carmichael and Draymond Green and LeBron and Mav Carter.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they're telling their barbershop stories. And they're like, look at me.
And I'm like, I'm only here to collect the rent. Like, I don't, that's what, that's what we do here.

Speaker 2 But it was so interesting when we were talking is Draymond said to me, he goes, Jews, man, you look out for each other.

Speaker 2 And in the moment, I was like dumbstruck of this idea of like

Speaker 2 Jews,

Speaker 2 we look out for each other as though, again,

Speaker 2 somebody who's been faced with not having discernment their whole life.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Who so easily passes into the realm of, and oh, by the way, I don't either, but that's fine.

Speaker 2 And that's so much of the issue we just don't. It was like in the war on terror, where we were like,

Speaker 2 you know, we were bombing the shit out of countries before we even knew, like, wait, Shia and Sunni? What?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's different what?

Speaker 2 If we were able to understand that lack of discernment without placing such negative value on it,

Speaker 2 in other words,

Speaker 2 if we were more understanding of prejudice and stereotype and less tolerant of racism,

Speaker 2 we'd start to understand that prejudice and stereotype are functions mostly of ignorance and of experience.

Speaker 2 Racism is malevolent, right?

Speaker 2 But the other is way more natural. But we react as though it might

Speaker 2 metastasize immediately. Yes.
And so I think we throw up barriers to each other in a way that

Speaker 2 we're crossing the street before we have to.

Speaker 2 And the anger that that engenders is

Speaker 2 part of what builds, I think, those walls.

Speaker 1 I think it's also because it's exactly what you're saying.

Speaker 1 But again, more than most countries in the world, and I think it's starting to spread now because of social media, but I think more than most countries in the world, in America, that's been weaponized.

Speaker 1 So when I was doing the daily show, I barely got time to really go home to South Africa. Like, you know, it's, it's, it's a slog and then you need the time to relax and rest and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 But now that I've had more time to go back and just like pop back and pop back,

Speaker 1 I realized how much nuance I've even robbed myself of because America wants a snap judgment.

Speaker 1 You know, so America immediately wants the, you said it, it's over, as opposed to, why did you say it? What did you mean by it? Oh, this is how it can be interpreted. It's slow.
It's laborious.

Speaker 1 It's oftentimes boring. But you know what it is, John? It's context.

Speaker 1 It is completely, completely.

Speaker 2 Did you just do a call?

Speaker 1 Young man. It's context.

Speaker 2 You just did a callback, but you just walked us around the park to where we started. For God's sakes.

Speaker 2 I think that's right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I've noticed.
And grace.

Speaker 2 I think that's the missing ingredient of context.

Speaker 1 Oh, I like that actually.

Speaker 2 It's often grace and the forgiveness. Going back to Dave, you know,

Speaker 2 he said something once. I can't remember what we were talking about.

Speaker 2 He goes, so important, man.

Speaker 2 Forgive yourself. You know how it gets me.

Speaker 1 You lean in.

Speaker 2 Forgive yourself. Forgive yourself.

Speaker 2 And I was just, I just thought that was such an incredibly

Speaker 2 wonderfully foundational concept

Speaker 2 because so much of getting back to sort of the vibration of the brain that you need to calm is a lack of grace for yourself, a lack of forgiveness for yourself for mistakes, for missteps, for

Speaker 2 is trying to discern the context of those missteps and what was done of ignorance and what could be cured and what could you learn, not in a performative way, but in a way that you could then

Speaker 2 a seed that you could plant in yourself that you could nurture and grow into something,

Speaker 2 right? Yeah. And that feels like such an important step of that.

Speaker 1 It's funny you say that the

Speaker 1 most difficulty I had on the daily show

Speaker 1 was when I got into trouble for saying the thing that I wasn't saying.

Speaker 2 Oh, really? Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Yes. I could handle someone not liking my opinion.
I was like, yeah, it's an opinion. We all have that.
That's right. I don't agree with this.
Okay, good for you. Let's have a conversation.

Speaker 2 Did you feel it was purposeful, the misunderstanding? Because my guess is some people didn't understand. Some people understood and weaponized it because they saw advantage.

Speaker 1 No, I think some people, it was actually the people who I think I was speaking with or for or, you know, in.

Speaker 1 Oh, it was those moments where you go, yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, I'm, no, what do you mean?

Speaker 1 You know, it's like you, you played soccer, you know what it's, it's like, it literally felt like sometimes you're crossing the ball

Speaker 1 and your team goes, you try to clear the ball for them.

Speaker 1 And you go, no.

Speaker 2 I misunderstood. You're talking literally about like your allies.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. I remember saying this to the team at the show all the time.
Right. I'd say, if there was one thing I would change

Speaker 1 about American politics, especially for liberals, especially for liberals, is

Speaker 1 liberals have

Speaker 2 a

Speaker 1 really,

Speaker 1 for lack of a better term, it's like it's a really black and white system of being in and out.

Speaker 1 And I find Republicans or conservatives, maybe because they're more religious, they believe more in the story of redemption. They believe more in like, you didn't mean that.

Speaker 1 Well, atone and you can come back in.

Speaker 2 That's interesting.

Speaker 1 Do you know how many times I heard? very Christian people say, I would say, how could you support Trump? And then they would say to me, and I get it completely, they'd go, he's not a perfect vessel.

Speaker 1 And they'd say, go read the Bible. The Bible is littered with stories of imperfect men delivering a perfect message.
And I would be like, damn.

Speaker 1 And I would envy that for liberals because I would go, you know, how many times liberals would not consider the possibility that the person they are in lockstep with slipped or tripped or didn't even actually be an imperfect person.

Speaker 1 You might find they did something that made sense and it affected you in a way that you thought.

Speaker 2 And here's how the liberal mind

Speaker 2 fights back against that very message. So as you're talking, right, it's about the grace of faith and how it teaches you to forgive and

Speaker 2 to feel redemption

Speaker 2 through imperfect vessels is such an important part of growth. And as you're talking the whole time, I'm like, yo, the Bible, you know, talks about slavery.

Speaker 2 I mean, the Bible, you know, there's literally instructions for slavery in the Bible.

Speaker 2 So, I mean, you know, you use that as a, so you immediately, and it is, it's a, it's a flaw, but it's a thing in my mind. And it's why faith,

Speaker 2 it's why I'm so faith resistant.

Speaker 2 I can't let my brain stop

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 2 litigation.

Speaker 1 I'm full of faith. Yeah, I can't.
You see, that's a weird one. It's like, I'm not particularly religious, but I'm right.

Speaker 1 An example is like, I play football, soccer soccer every week right play here still yeah yeah still the knees are driver we're trying our best here john we're trying you don't play at all

Speaker 2 yeah once you hit 60.

Speaker 1 you said this to me about 40 by the way

Speaker 1 once you hit 40.

Speaker 1 um no no i still play and

Speaker 1 i i joke one of my one of my best friends now i met playing soccer here in new york at pier 40 and um we have this team it is like the united nations i mean algerians

Speaker 1 Nigerians, Ghanaians, French, South Africans, Moroccans, Australia, you name it.

Speaker 1 They're on this team from everywhere around the world, every walk of life. And we play together.

Speaker 1 And my friends know I love being on the team that is considered dysfunctional and useless because I have faith that every player is trying to do the right thing. I genuinely believe in it.

Speaker 1 And I've noticed that sometimes what will happen is a player will be on the other team. They will do something that they thought would go well.
They try to cross the ball. They try to shoot.

Speaker 1 They try to pass. They try to tackle.
They fail. And their teammates will treat them like they are against them.
And I have such an allergic reaction to this because I go, no, we are on the same team.

Speaker 1 Are we on the same team? Yes. What were you trying to do there? Were you trying to kick it into our goals? No, you were not.
All right.

Speaker 1 Next time then. angle your foot.
And if the person's receptive, I go, yeah, we made a mistake. Let's move on.

Speaker 1 I don't think liberals do that, to be honest with you. I think there's like a, there's a, there's a real like, ah, well,

Speaker 1 not only, not only are you out, you're on the other team,

Speaker 1 which is even crazier to me. Imagine playing a game, John.
Imagine playing a sport.

Speaker 1 Every time your wide receiver drops a catch, every time your point guard passes the ball out of bounds, not only do you bench them, you bench them to the other team.

Speaker 1 That is an unsustainable way of growing a coalition. Right.
Do you know what I mean? It doesn't encourage people.

Speaker 2 The only thing that,

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 the groups have that litmus, it's like if I'm looking at, so I'm thinking about the right now, and before I grant them the

Speaker 2 redemption arc, I think about the vindictiveness

Speaker 2 of the Trump era.

Speaker 2 That there's very little of it. You know,

Speaker 2 there are really no deadly sins in the Trump era in terms of that when you talk about faith and he can be convicted of this

Speaker 2 and evidence of unfaithfulness and

Speaker 2 sexual harassment, all these different things.

Speaker 2 And he's an imperfect vessel. Yes.

Speaker 1 But the one cardinal sin

Speaker 1 is

Speaker 2 fealty, is if you're not loyal enough,

Speaker 2 you're wrong.

Speaker 1 So they do have

Speaker 1 that. It's just

Speaker 1 that's where religion comes back in. Right.
Thou shalt have no other God but me. That's right.
That is a.

Speaker 2 But that places him beyond the scope of redemption and into the pantheon. Because

Speaker 2 there was a part of me that thought, oh, it is true.

Speaker 2 Like I've been involved in some liberal movements. Like we have a rescue farm.
So I was involved in animal rights movements.

Speaker 1 I remember when you were

Speaker 1 chasing a

Speaker 1 bull, Frank. Let me tell you.
His name is Frank. Let me tell you something, John.

Speaker 2 Out in Brooklyn, Red Hook.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 1 this is what I love about our lives lives: is that whether you intended it or not, we are forever intertwined. Yes.

Speaker 1 You know, we are trees that have branches that have met and we continue to grow in different directions. Love always have those branches that connect us.

Speaker 1 I remember the day like it was yesterday.

Speaker 1 I'm at the daily show

Speaker 1 and I start getting text messages,

Speaker 1 all concerned but in different ways.

Speaker 1 Some saying,

Speaker 1 is Jon Stewart okay?

Speaker 1 What is happening to Jon Stewart?

Speaker 1 And I remember like some people going, genuinely, some people thought you were having your snap moment, your run down the street naked, because all some people saw was

Speaker 1 Jon Stewart running down.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we were in,

Speaker 2 we were out along about a bull had gotten loose. Yes.

Speaker 1 And from where, by the way?

Speaker 2 That's an excellent question, Trevor. You know, I try not to ask

Speaker 1 those that

Speaker 2 the bull, I don't know where he came from necessarily.

Speaker 1 Okay, because I was like, I don't see bulls in New York.

Speaker 2 It's sort of like they're like brothels. You know, they're there.
You don't know the address.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Slaughterhouses are the same one. Got it.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of festivals going on where they're going to need a lot of goats and they're going to need him fast and they don't necessarily want them inspected. So Frank had gotten away from.

Speaker 2 one of these slaughterhouses and was running apparently. Frank's the bull.
Frank's the bull. Okay, got it.
Got it. He got out.
Now he's being chased.

Speaker 2 And it's always that news story, you know, they, they, a bull running through Brooklyn. Well, I never.
It's a local news catnip.

Speaker 2 It's also catnip for my wife, who looks at me and looks at our trailer and goes, if we leave now, we can get to Brooklyn in an hour and 15 minutes.

Speaker 1 Or leave where in New Jersey?

Speaker 2 Leave our farm. We can get there.
And if they catch Frank, we can get him and we can take him to a sanctuary. We can get him so that he's not hamburgered.
So

Speaker 1 I'm assuming this is an animal trailer. It's like a specific.

Speaker 2 It's a Dotson.

Speaker 1 It's a four-door.

Speaker 2 So as long as you can, no, it's a trailer.

Speaker 2 Look, I had to learn all this shit too.

Speaker 2 And by the way, like driving a trailer in New York City is not, it's no easy game. It doesn't seem like

Speaker 2 it's fucking gigantic. It's attached to your, we had a pickup.
So it's attached to the pickup. So you are 25, 30 feet of vehicle, and they don't necessarily move together.

Speaker 2 And backing it up is a giant pain in the ass.

Speaker 2 We get out there to, they finally corral this bull and they bring him in. And we are able to get to the facility where they're holding him.
They're holding him at like a dog shelter.

Speaker 2 Like he's literally in one of the. the crates and able to back through and you know call the different arrangements and

Speaker 2 gonna maybe you try not to pay the people that the bull has escaped from because that's considered anathema for the movement or whatever.

Speaker 2 So, but we get him. There's a bull in our trailer and I've got to drive him through the Lincoln tunnel.

Speaker 1 And it's just,

Speaker 2 you know, it's,

Speaker 2 you know, he's not a happy bull.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 He doesn't want to be there. He doesn't, he doesn't, you can't say to him like, buddy.

Speaker 1 you don't understand

Speaker 2 things are going to get better for me shits are about to get so good for you you don't understand how good we are for you frank But I have to tell you, in terms of personal satisfaction,

Speaker 1 off the charts.

Speaker 2 Off the charts.

Speaker 1 It is like the peak of, dare I say, manliness

Speaker 1 throughout time, John.

Speaker 2 If you had seen while we were trying to get him into the trailer, I think you would have manliness.

Speaker 1 It doesn't matter.

Speaker 1 Humankind is defined by the moments where we have captured large beasts.

Speaker 2 But I think to ride or eat, not to take to a park.

Speaker 1 Still, still for me. All right.
You get to say, well, yeah, I captured a wild bull in the streets of Brooklyn. But let's go back to what you're saying about

Speaker 1 the Republic. You said you've dealt with some groups.
I'll preface it with this.

Speaker 1 One of my greatest joys about

Speaker 1 getting to go. back to South Africa and spend more time there and come back to the U.S.
And, you know, I live in New York, but I spend time there, I spend, is that it's reminded me

Speaker 1 to wire my brain differently, right?

Speaker 1 If you live somewhere and if you've experienced something the way it has always been, you think that that's the way it is. Yes.
Right. I find the more you travel, and even this is even with languages.

Speaker 1 The reason I like learning languages is because they remind me that the order of words is only what I've been told. You are here with me today.

Speaker 2 You believe reality has a certain order, but it doesn't. Completely.

Speaker 1 And in another language, it is today is you here

Speaker 1 with me, me. And it's like, that's fine that's fine too right one of the big ones i realized for me personally was

Speaker 1 in south africa we spend more time i would argue most people spend more time shitting on their political party than they do thinking about like the other you know what i mean and i think to what you're saying and i've seen i mean we've both gotten flackfoot in different ways

Speaker 1 there is an there's a there's a certain allergic reaction that you get in america when you do that and this i can can argue republican or democrat there's like a betrayal oh no question how could you do you understand that we are at war right now yes how dare you how how you you are undermining and you go like no no no no no no i'm saying yeah we again we come back to the analogy of sports hey we need to pass the ball if lebron says to his team guys we're not defending and someone says whoa

Speaker 1 what are you talking about what are you what are you playing for them for them now what are you a celtic now what do you what do you mean when you know, and it's like, no,

Speaker 1 I don't know that that's. Have you found a solve for that? Or do you just take it on the chin and you keep it moving?

Speaker 2 I think you take it on the chin and you keep it moving. I mean, I think the way that I try and like you made Biden old.

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 2 But by mentioning it, I handed the election to Donald Trump. You did, John.
I believe

Speaker 2 his niece, Mary Trump, referred to me after that as a threat to democracy,

Speaker 2 which I thought was an appropriate level of

Speaker 2 threat assessment. It's one of those things.

Speaker 2 So there's, there's, it's sort of, there's two things to it. One is we both operated kind of artisanal shit talkeries.
Like that is what we do. It's what I do.
I have an opinion.

Speaker 2 I try and frame it within a certain comedic tableau. So when people want to talk shit back,

Speaker 2 I don't have a whole leg to stand on to be like, what? Yeah. How dare you talk shit to the man who just talked shit about the thing that I wanted to talk shit about?

Speaker 2 The second part of it, though, is the reptilian nature of people when they feel that fear, they're very comfortable attacking who they think are the other team.

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 And they think that if you give them any solace, they don't view it as that might be a constructive,

Speaker 2 a constructive lens by which to view like a stand-up comic. What's the worst thing that a stand-up comic can be?

Speaker 1 Fragile.

Speaker 2 If the audience is worried for the comic. Yeah, that's it.
You're not going to listen to a lot. Well, that's what Biden was in that moment.

Speaker 2 He would come out, and I don't care who you were, like you were worried. No, you were.
You felt it viscerally.

Speaker 2 Mentioning that as a way of maybe saying to people, either A, prove that this is the wrong emotion that I'm feeling, or B,

Speaker 2 get someone there that has the wherewithal to take on this.

Speaker 2 I would think would be viewed constructively, but it was viewed utterly destructively.

Speaker 2 You know, in terms of it bothering me, like nobody likes to be yelled at a lot, but I think I've been doing it long enough that the thickness of the skin, like

Speaker 2 I don't dwell on it in maybe the way I would have when I was younger.

Speaker 2 But the second part of it is, I remember the war on terror.

Speaker 2 I like America in that fight over Al-Qaeda. Big fan.

Speaker 2 But I criticized America quite frequently. That doesn't mean I wanted Al-Qaeda to win.

Speaker 2 Or that doesn't mean that I think it means that I hold my beliefs and the people that I want to carry the flag for that to a very high standard.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 that standard, if not met,

Speaker 2 I think in the same way that I try to hold myself to a high standard.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 2 when failing to live up to it, I'm very critical and try and grant that forgiveness. But the point being,

Speaker 2 if you love something, if you believe in the idea of something,

Speaker 2 you have to stress test it. It's like anything else, man.

Speaker 2 What's the toughest part about comedy is it's not the writing, it's the rewriting. It's the editing.
And why do you do that? You do that because you think you can make it better.

Speaker 1 And that's the whole of it.

Speaker 2 And to have that viewed as

Speaker 2 the antithesis of that, that as though that sabotage,

Speaker 2 I think is so wholly wrongheaded that I don't even know what to make of it. The whole like, you both sides are it.
You're saying they're the same. I'm not saying they're the same at all.

Speaker 2 And anybody who watches me with any discernment over the course of, forget about one episode over a career, would know that.

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Speaker 2 Did it surprise you that at the Daily Show, there are so many fail-sapes of fairness and context? Like, that's what people say, you guys take everything out of context. Like, have you met Chods?

Speaker 2 Like, Adam Chardiov, who's a guy who does our research, been there forever. He's an institution at the show.

Speaker 1 These are the credentials of Adam Chardikov. Chards was the keynote speaker at the World Fact Checkers Conference.

Speaker 1 These are the levels we're talking about. Yes.
This is a person.

Speaker 2 Chards we trust. Yes.

Speaker 1 And this is a person where, and you know as well as I, like, if you work or host the daily show, you will at some point have to fight with this man.

Speaker 2 That's right. And he will say, you can't really say that because the source that that's coming from.

Speaker 1 Man, let me tell you something.

Speaker 2 That's the truth. That's a liberal, you know, you got it.
You can't trust that fact. Let me tell you something.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But what he really taught me more than most human beings, he taught me how to deconstruct data.
He taught me how to deconstruct information.

Speaker 1 He taught me how to make the argument stronger as opposed to relying on the first instinct of the argument. That's right.

Speaker 2 And when he says that, you don't say to him, What are you both sides in it? You're playing for the other team. No, he's challenging you to be better.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's it. Yeah.

Speaker 2 They thrive in spaces where you can say whatever you want

Speaker 2 and intimidate others into acquiescence or silence. Where they don't thrive are places where there are evidentiary standards and

Speaker 2 litigation and proceedings, right?

Speaker 2 An interview is a place of where someone's going to ask you real questions is a place of evidentiary standards and litigation.

Speaker 2 So that's not a comfortable space for them

Speaker 2 because they have a goal in mind and they want to get there.

Speaker 2 How else can they be, George Soros is the most evil man in the world because he spends millions of dollars influencing elections and say it with a straight face.

Speaker 2 How in the world, if you say to them, look, the bureaucracy is

Speaker 2 not the issue. with our government.
These are individuals, oftentimes really committed, really smart, working to execute the wishes of the Congress.

Speaker 2 By you demonizing them, it's you're the guy yelling at the Southwest Airlines counter. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Right. Not realizing it's corporate.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 But they do know

Speaker 2 they do it for a purpose. They need scapegoats to get.
So if you say to them, you're the Department of Efficiency,

Speaker 2 but you've just cut 20% of this. What are the metrics that you use to determine waste, fraud, and abuse?

Speaker 2 And their response is always the same.

Speaker 2 Oh, looks like the faucets get the gravy train stopped running. Looks like

Speaker 2 you don't want this gravy train. And you're like, that's not what I asked you.
What I asked you was, show us transparently

Speaker 2 why this is more efficient. Their response is always strawman demagoguing.

Speaker 2 Because they don't want to litigate the reality of it. They just want to steamroll to the vision of the world where

Speaker 2 if you say DEI, they go, oh, so

Speaker 2 you don't want a meritocracy. When did we have a fucking meritocracy?

Speaker 2 Honestly, like when, when has hiring ever not been subjective and done by people that are more comfortable with people kind of like themselves?

Speaker 2 And by the way, getting back to the stereotype argument, like, and we should have grace for that.

Speaker 2 Anybody who's ever been in a high school cafeteria knows there's a lot of self-sorting that goes on in the world.

Speaker 1 Gladwell was on the podcast. He had a brilliant analysis of that.
And he said,

Speaker 1 people are quick to talk shit about DEI. And whether you're for it or against, I've never liked the label of it and I don't like the intention because I go,

Speaker 1 you're not saying we're going to widen the aperture to catch those we've missed. We're not going to watch the South African comedian and just put him in the pile.
Yes. Because I could have been shit.

Speaker 1 And you watched that and you went like, good luck to that kid.

Speaker 2 Here's what I could have said. You know what we need? Black guy.

Speaker 2 Oh, wait. That guy's the actual African black guy?

Speaker 2 Wait, black guy, I think, is is three points. African black guy, I think that might be seven points.

Speaker 1 See, but it's the aperture. And I think that's where people make the mistake.
If you're actually trying to make sustainable change, you look at what, you try and look at what you're missing, right?

Speaker 1 If you don't, you look at the labels of what you're missing to try and fill up the gaps. But what he talked about was, and I mean, it was so brilliant.
Classic Gladwell, he went.

Speaker 1 Everyone talks shit about who gets universities. Oh, these black kids are getting in and these kids, it's because of, you know, admissions that have lowered the bar, lowered the bar.

Speaker 1 He goes through the sports that get you scholarships and he goes,

Speaker 1 lacrosse,

Speaker 1 fencing, ice hockey, ice hockey, ice skating, squash. And he's like, who chooses these sports? Yeah.
Who chooses which sport gets you into a college? If you're really slick at what you do,

Speaker 1 you get around saying the thing, but you make sure you're doing the thing. Right.
Do you know what I'm saying? Absolutely. You find a way to go, oh yeah, let's do that.

Speaker 2 You have an outcome.

Speaker 1 That's where, to be honest with you, that's where I think the Democrats are shitty, actually.

Speaker 2 No question.

Speaker 1 I actually think Democrats, as like politicians, are shitty.

Speaker 2 The Republicans are Malcolm X by any means necessary. However, they have to get it.
And they've got a plan.

Speaker 2 And the Democrats.

Speaker 1 You know what? I just thought, oh, sorry. Someone's going to clip that line.

Speaker 1 Republicans are Malcolm X. Someone's going to clip that.
And they're just going to put it up like, you see, even Jon Stewart knows we're the ones trying to free the people. The Republicans.
You see?

Speaker 1 And they're going to play you again. The Republicans are

Speaker 1 Malcolm X. The Republicans are Malcolm X.

Speaker 2 The Republicans are Malcolm X. And the Democrats are a black square on their Facebook page.

Speaker 2 There's a performance to it. The Democrats are the audacity of hope and the governance of timidity.
Like it's the timidity of what's possible as opposed to what should be done.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 So those two things, it's not a fair fight. So with DEI, the way I try and talk about it now is in economic terms.
Don't think about it as

Speaker 2 women, black people, poor people, veterans. Think of it as emerging markets.
Oh, I love that. If you're a businessman, who doesn't want to exploit emerging markets?

Speaker 1 That's hilarious.

Speaker 2 That's how you, you know, it's, it's. Oh, man, that's hilarious.
But what they'll do to that is, again, they'll strawman it.

Speaker 2 Oh, so you just don't, you don't care who flies the planes as long as they're black. It's like when they say, can a black man be president? You're like, Barack Obama, yes, Mr.

Speaker 2 T, probably not as easily.

Speaker 2 Like there's discernment, but what they're looking for is to look at where are places, because what does that do when you start to build up these supply lines that have withered?

Speaker 2 It increases competition.

Speaker 2 It increases the meritocracy. It doesn't decrease it.
And they like to pretend that hiring decisions in the good old days, that was merit.

Speaker 2 People didn't hire their friends or their friends' sons or some good old boy that they played golf with at the club. No, it was all merit.

Speaker 2 And I don't know if you remember, but the world worked perfectly then.

Speaker 1 That's one of the biggest things I try and explain to people about Elon Musk, Peter Thiel to a lesser extent, but still the boys who came from South Africa.

Speaker 1 Oh, God, that's right. Yeah, they've all been touched.
I'm fascinated by it because

Speaker 1 I don't think it's coincidence that these guys have all lived in and around apartheid South Africa and have now gone into the world and are starting to exercise.

Speaker 2 With a vision of how it should be. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And many, many of the elements sound exactly like apartheid South Africa. And what you're saying now is one of the biggest slights that a lot of white people felt in South Africa.

Speaker 1 The ones who weren't honest, because a lot of the honest ones were great about it, but the ones who weren't honest would go,

Speaker 1 you used to be able to get a job in this country. And I remember asking my mom once, I was very young, and I i said mom i um

Speaker 1 i asked her she she would always say shame this is what she'd say we'd be at the traffic lights and there'd be a homeless person black you know but the white ones she'd always say shame

Speaker 1 and i said to her one day i said mom you give money to both but you always say shame when you give it to the white homeless guy why

Speaker 1 and she said you know why baby

Speaker 1 because

Speaker 1 They don't know how to be poor. And I was like, damn, that's harsh.
And she said, and I was like, what do you, I said, what what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1 She said, it's not just that they don't know how to be poor, but

Speaker 1 they've been told that the world was supposed to work a certain way.

Speaker 1 And now that it's not working that way, I can't imagine what it feels like. She says, but as black people, we've been told that our job is to suffer.
And so we suffer, honey.

Speaker 1 We suffer and we try to not suffer, but we believe as black people,

Speaker 1 which means we suffer, we are suffering.

Speaker 1 And she said, so I feel so bad for them because the only thing worse they should have worked out for them she says the only thing worse than being in a bad position is being in a bad position when you were told that there was no bad position right that you were the default inheritor of the kingdom and now you go to your point it's because of the dei it's because of the it's because now we're going to see with young men women are going to get jobs oh it's because they're women

Speaker 1 they study what happened or they

Speaker 2 All these women start going to college, Title IX, all that, and all of a sudden they start kicking the shit out of men academically.

Speaker 2 And everybody's like, see the terrible uh trials and tribulations of the american male and you're like right because

Speaker 1 now there's competition and competition and the thing by the way that we were never better at them at we were never better than women at academics this is every study that has shown it is like men brain throw run catch very good very good no we can't there's some of us who can concentrate but for the most part man brain like right you know young boys shouldn't be in class early in the day right they say if a school was designed perfectly, it would be boys would go in.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 All they would do is run. Just run non-stop.

Speaker 2 For at least an hour.

Speaker 1 Just run like crazy.

Speaker 1 Then they would learn. Right.
Whereas girls can go straight to learn.

Speaker 1 So the irony for in all of it for me is they were always going to kick ass academically because that is what their brain is designed for. Right.
Right. They just weren't allowed into it before.

Speaker 1 You know, so now you go, oh, why? Why are they suddenly like, yeah, they just want to come.

Speaker 2 The inclusion has to be set up as the default setting. Otherwise, it doesn't work.

Speaker 2 And I think also the other argument that goes through there is how can you punish people who didn't create this system in the first place, but just benefited from it.

Speaker 2 And bringing this back to South Africa. So that's something that, you know, Elon is now on a thing in other countries.
He wants to tell AFD and Germany, it's time to get over this.

Speaker 1 Oh, he's doing it fully. We're going to give them refugee status.
We're going to bring them all over.

Speaker 1 And for like a half a day, there were a few white South Africans who were like, yeah, this is great.

Speaker 1 And then they said refugee. And then people explained what that would mean.
It's like, you just leave your shit, you lose your citizenship. Uh-huh.
And you just come to America

Speaker 2 and get temporary status.

Speaker 1 And like within a day and a half,

Speaker 1 some of the biggest Afrikaner organizations came out and they were like, hey, we actually like it here.

Speaker 2 I don't know if you know, we own like 70% of the farm.

Speaker 1 They were like, look, we don't want to be rescued. We just,

Speaker 1 I think what you need to understand is it's not about rescuing us per se. It's like the analogy is.

Speaker 2 Recognizing we're the real victims of apartheid. There you go, my friend.
So what do you do?

Speaker 1 There you go. You know what it felt like to me? It felt like people on a cruise ship sending out SOSs saying that they were refugees and then the helicopter flying in going, wait, you on the slide?

Speaker 1 Are you

Speaker 1 at the buffet? We're not a refugee.

Speaker 1 Wait, what? And And you're like, I thought you were oppressed. And they're like, yeah, they said it closes at 10 and now it closes at 9.
It's like, wow, I don't think that's oppression.

Speaker 1 I think it just got a little...

Speaker 2 Yeah. So what do they do with

Speaker 2 advantage like that? Do the white South Africaners now need a truth and reconciliation commission? Do they need to go and cry and go, sometimes now when I go places, people look at me funny?

Speaker 1 I think to be honest with you, you know, to go back to what we've been saying about social media, to go to what we're saying about

Speaker 1 dialogue, discourse, et cetera.

Speaker 1 And I do put a lot of this blame at the feet of social media. And I think the media media got so addicted to the teat of social media that it started creeping.

Speaker 2 You follow the same circadian rhythms.

Speaker 1 Thousand people tweet. Jon Stewart offended me.
Trevor Noah is an anti-Semite. The news picks it up,

Speaker 1 makes it a thing, then brings it back this way. That's right.
And then now the social media gets bigger than the news goes, it's similar to weapons of mass destruction.

Speaker 1 Oh, we heard there were weapons. The New York Times said there were weapons.
We must invade because of the weapons. But it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait.
But this is

Speaker 2 you were the guys who told them there were weapons.

Speaker 1 You see, right? So I think in that, so I think there are many, and I'm lucky that I get to see them. There are many white South Africans who go, this is bullshit.
We now live in a democracy.

Speaker 1 Things got fair. And I'm still in a much better position.
Even if I'm poor, I'm in a better position than the average black South African in terms of poverty, access to work, whatever.

Speaker 1 But the voices, John, the thing that I get particularly pissed pissed off about is that there's an insidious voice that knows

Speaker 1 that this can be used

Speaker 1 to destabilize so that someone can be enriched.

Speaker 2 That's the whole purpose.

Speaker 1 So you see Elon Musk? Show me a single cause that Elon Musk is supporting that does not in the end benefit him financially. Then I will go, okay, maybe he does have a value.

Speaker 1 Where is he fighting in Europe, predominantly, Germany? Where's the place where he's come up against some of the biggest union violations and workers' rights? And what's the right thing to do?

Speaker 2 What did he get rid of in the government? All the agencies that were regulating his businesses.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 2 no, you're dead right. The question is going to be not enough to say that the exclusionary structures of society are no longer operational.

Speaker 2 How do you repair them in a manner that is still

Speaker 2 equitable, right? So, South African, I don't know at all, but if 70% of the farms are still owned, right? Yeah, by white people, you can't just walk in and eminently domain it.

Speaker 2 You can't just walk in and go, well, it should be 70, 30 the other way. And so, that's what we're going to do.
So, what do you do? How do you repair systems without being punitive

Speaker 2 to those who may not have had a hand in

Speaker 2 all of that. And is that the key? It's sort of like, look, we can all, at the beginning of

Speaker 2 every

Speaker 2 government meeting, honor the Indigenous peoples that came before us, but nobody's giving the land back.

Speaker 1 So I go,

Speaker 1 again,

Speaker 1 visiting another reality with your eyes open makes you realize that there is no one reality. Right.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 if you suggested that in most,

Speaker 1 can you imagine if you said to Americans, hey, let me ask you a question.

Speaker 1 All 330-something million of you,

Speaker 1 this is your country.

Speaker 1 Why is it that the oil underneath it can belong to one person?

Speaker 1 He has his straw and he drinks your milk. I drink the milk triangle, he drinks your milkshake.

Speaker 1 Why is that allowed? And someone will be like, no, because

Speaker 1 you know how hard it is to drill and you got to get them. And I go, yeah, yeah, I get all of that.

Speaker 1 But I'm just saying, acknowledge that you've accepted a reality you know when you'll realize it is when you follow its ultimate conclusion water like if you said okay trev i'll give you some oil i'm like ah what do i do with oil i don't know what to do with oil but water now the same trajectory has started moving right now right more and more water is owned by corporations yes and slowly slowly the municipal water supplies are getting shittier.

Speaker 1 They're not looked after as well. Now your tap water is not as drinkable.
Saltier. Yeah.
Less and less American water is, which, by the way, it was the A standard. A lot of people may not know this.

Speaker 1 And a lot of people may take it for granted because they've always been drinking the water from the tap. It's not normal everywhere in the world.
Right. Quality goes down.

Speaker 1 At some point, you have to buy bottled water. At some point, you have to buy water.
But no one goes, where does the water come from? Why are we even paying for it?

Speaker 1 And people go, Bob, but Trevor, you got to understand. Then I go, okay, let's play this game and go to the ultimate conclusion.
What if I found a way to extract oxygen from the air?

Speaker 1 What if I found a way? What if I made a machine that could suck all breathable oxygen out of the air? And I now had it in my machine.

Speaker 1 I had it in my machine.

Speaker 1 No one else has it. You've cornered the market out.
I've cornered the market. Breathable air.
I've cornered the market. Let's say the machine's not, it's not perfect.

Speaker 1 Right now it can only do like a hundred block radius. Right.
But in that 100 block radius, I have all the breathable air.

Speaker 1 Do you think my neighbors would agree with the notion that they should now pay me to breathe?

Speaker 1 Would that not be reasonable, John? I worked hard for this oxygen.

Speaker 2 I extracted it. And yet, if you did it a month later,

Speaker 2 it would just be the way it is.

Speaker 1 And people go, you buy oxygen.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you buy oxygen.

Speaker 1 The NOAA Corporation.

Speaker 1 And number one providers. You would develop.
We do have a baseball league for kids who are from disadvantaged backgrounds. Absolutely.
I hope you know that. We sponsor the baseball league.

Speaker 2 And we have a line of blueberry acai oxygen for the very rich people

Speaker 1 um i know i've got to let you go at some point but um if you had a a magic wand

Speaker 1 what's one thing you think it changes i know one thing won't change at all but in this moment in time i would use it to make more magic wands ah you see this is why you're brilliant uh

Speaker 2 Well, the temptation is always with the magic wand is to go global and to do the whole, you know, and we all have a world of plenty.

Speaker 2 It's an Eden where, and, and this time in the Eden, we decide, let's, you know what, how about this? Let's just not plant an apple tree.

Speaker 2 Maybe the whole idea is if we don't put the apple tree, the Eden doesn't get spoiled.

Speaker 2 So I will, I will not take the easy way out, which would be to wave the magic wand as a panacea, because I think it just doesn't, there's probably nothing for us to have.

Speaker 2 insight with. There's not much of a meal in that.
If I just, what, what would you do? And it would just be like, ice cream and pizza, trevor that's what i would do

Speaker 2 i i think

Speaker 2 what i would focus on is information ecosystems

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 ultimately

Speaker 1 people

Speaker 2 are creatures of free will and that's the joy of humanity And so to steal the free will with a magic wand almost makes this entirely an exercise in the good place where you're in somewhere and you're bored.

Speaker 2 There is a beauty in the not knowing. There's a beauty in the finite nature of all that we have.

Speaker 2 And there's a beauty in the resourcefulness that is necessary because life is fucking hard.

Speaker 1 It just, it's hard.

Speaker 2 It's a challenge.

Speaker 2 So I think

Speaker 2 the thing that I would wish for is not an instruction manual,

Speaker 2 but an information ecosystem that allowed those

Speaker 1 who

Speaker 2 would wish to access it and see it to be able to make those decisions about their future and about the future.

Speaker 1 I hear what you mean, yeah.

Speaker 2 With the good data.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 Not the data that's been co-opted and warped.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 Because ultimately, the machine's only as good as the input.

Speaker 2 And so I would probably, with my magic wand, want to clean the inputs so that we'd still fuck up, we'd still make terrible mistakes, but at least we'd all be

Speaker 2 working off of the good data.

Speaker 1 I like that. I have a friend who works at the United Nations,

Speaker 1 and I was saying,

Speaker 1 what is different in how you see the world versus how other people see the world? And this person said, I know the UN's not perfect and it's fallen apart in many ways. And, you know,

Speaker 1 but they said, the one thing I do appreciate appreciate is at the UN, we get our news from primary source.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Almost everyone in that building gets the news from where the news actually happened.
Right.

Speaker 1 And they were saying how you'll be shocked at how different it shapes. How, you know, like a simple example was,

Speaker 1 I think it was like the US at some point, they proposed a, oh man, you, you know all these English words. I lose.
I think it was like a triate to a ceasefire or

Speaker 1 a preemptive.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm sure. Preemptive.

Speaker 1 A referendum. It was something like that.

Speaker 1 And then the American news reported and said, America has supported a ceasefire. And everyone in the UN was like, no, no, no.
No one knows what that sentence means.

Speaker 1 You said ceasefire, but you put, but because they had primary source, they saw it. And I feel like...

Speaker 1 Would you ever do something like that? Would you ever go into something organizational?

Speaker 1 I mean, people have asked you this. You'd never run for president, right?

Speaker 2 Run for president. Sure, let's do it.

Speaker 1 Let's do it tomorrow.

Speaker 2 Me and Stephen A. Smith.

Speaker 1 I mean, you could. That's a winning ticket.
Anybody could. That's a winning ticket, by the way.

Speaker 2 I think, you know.

Speaker 1 That's a hell of a winning ticket, John. Oh,

Speaker 2 somewhere. I'm not sure where.
Basic cable.

Speaker 1 You don't think you and Stephen A. Smith could win the presidency?

Speaker 2 No, I don't.

Speaker 1 Huh? I don't.

Speaker 2 I think we could win the news that week. Huh?

Speaker 2 We would win the news that week.

Speaker 1 Someone's been chasing bulls for too long. I don't know, Jon Stewart.

Speaker 1 I don't know, my friend.

Speaker 2 If you had asked me the magic wand question 30 years ago,

Speaker 2 in the era that I was in that we talked about earlier, my answer would have been, oh, I think I would have hot and cold running cocaine and blowjobs.

Speaker 2 And that'll probably disqualify me from them.

Speaker 1 I think it makes you the perfect candidate for

Speaker 1 flawed and evolved. And can I tell you, you look happier?

Speaker 2 I am happy.

Speaker 1 You look young. You look backward.

Speaker 1 Now you've benjamin button you know when you leave yeah yeah yeah and then the once a week i mean that's you dream can i tell you joe i feel like you walked so that i could run and then i ran so i could fly my friend yeah you are flying once a week jon stewart thank you for the time such a pleasure to see you truly a joy my friend thank you

Speaker 1 What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yameen and Jodi Avigan.

Speaker 1 Our senior producer is Jess Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our producer.
Music, Mixing and Mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening.

Speaker 1 Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.

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