UnitedHealthcare Assassin: Italians Are Black Again?

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Welcome to Sweeping Judgments. Josh, I'm just going to jump straight into into it okay as a fellow fellow gray hoodie wearer yeah you you knew this guy was gonna shoot the guy didn't you uh it's something why are you still wearing the hoodie by the way i okay look this is how i actually dress so when he when he popped up can i tell you can i tell you one thing real quick about the whole thing before we knew who he was or anything when i saw that dude stand up and then like get get the gun ready everything i was so thankful to see white hands oh yeah you it was over for you oh for you.
Then, then, do you know how many videos have you wearing that exact outfit with that exact backpack? Talking about CEOs. And so then, then CBS had the unmitigated nerve to say a light-skinned man.
Did you? Yeah, I noticed that shit. I thought I was the only one.
Do you want to know my conspiracy? What's your conspiracy? Italians are black again. No.
Yes, because that woman from that Trumpy woman said Ariana Grande is taking white people's roles. No, no, no.
She's Italian. I'm telling you, Italians are black again.
Yo, let me tell you something, Josh. I noticed that.
I've never light-skinned. I thought I was the only one.
Yeah, I know. I genuinely thought that...
But now my theory, because it's come out he's Italian I'm like maybe you know yeah but they didn't know but they didn't know when they made that statement but now what I'm saying they're calling Italians light skinned no no no let me tell you something when that exact thing because we all we all looked at the hand yeah and we you look and you're like oh okay we know who this isn't no, no. And then they were like a light-skinned man.
I was like, ah-ah, guys. Come on, guys.
Let's not. No.
Also, I don't want to cast this version on my people, but the time of day, I knew they weren't black. It was like too early to be doing hits.
Like, no, no. Damn.
Because, you know, at the beginning, we thought it was like- Shots fired in the studio. No, no.
We thought it was like some elaborate like they hired an assassin yes yes and i feel like any black assassins out there probably work between 11 a.m and 8 p.m i do not stand by any of these statements i do not i'm just saying i won't let a black comedian woman make jokes about black people Yo I didn't say we'd be late I'm just saying our working hours our work hours would be slightly different Yo you know what I'm not happy that anything happened the way it did however I do think because we grew up very religious all three of us that sometimes we are blessed in certain ways I was chatting to Christiana about this Josh and I was like oh man I wonder if we're going to talk about it on the podcast and Christiana was like but we can't she was like we cannot because he hasn't been caught and there is no third act to the story we know that he started teasing me no I was like we know that an assassin shot the CEO we know that he's on the run but we don't know how it concludes him we haven't found him and now we have found the suspect i will say this the suspect because maybe he's not and maybe he will be found innocent can i interject with one other thing that is about this media frenzy that is a joy to watch um it starts out with something bad but just maybe we'll get there. you'll cut this whole thing it's it's up we're not cutting anything from this episode everything we use is staying in this episode everything and if you are listening to this episode you are you know terms and conditions anything you listen to beyond this point terms and conditions apply you have agreed josh go for it so basically there's a, and it's talked about in media, but it's almost only talked about by people of color because it's usually when it happens to us or we watch it happen.
Whenever someone who is usually white, almost always white, but affluent, gets in trouble for anything, they use the best pictures of them they they show them in the best light

and finally there are people who are like disgusted by this act who are like from that normally protected group that have to watch the best pictures of this guy get circulated like he hadn't taken a bad picture his driver's license look good genuinely has i call him assassin bae He has a fan club

Amongst the ladies

Yeah

Is that surprising?

Is this hot privilege? Is that what it's called? Yeah. I mean, if you thought Ted Bundy got mail.
Oh, man. It's also who he took out, right? Yes.
So if he had shot a worker in McDonald's, for's for instance the person who snitched on him right we'd be like that's not cool but he he literally like shot up to oh yeah you know what i mean to use comedy terms yeah he punched he punched up and knocked down r.i.p to that man by the way you know father family man you know we should we're dehumanizing ceos right now but people don't care about CEOs. Yeah, well, I would never dehumanize a CEO.
No.

But... Father, family man, you know, we should, we're dehumanizing CEOs right now, but people don't care about CEOs.
Yeah, well, I would never dehumanize a CEO. No.
But. Bad for business.
But we'll get into this later, but I think part of the conversation is going to be us discussing who gets to be the killer. Do you know what I mean? But let's first start with like the most recent news he gets caught at a mcdonald's i don't know about you but everywhere i went people seem to be on this guy's side yeah i'm shocked that somebody snitched on him um so i'll throw this i'll throw two things out there right one first one is uh this is not in defense of this person who did the telling,'m just telling you what happened right in my experience where you work at a job like that and somebody crazy come in you just want them out by any means necessary and so I think there is a part of you working there being like look I don't know he might think I'm the CEO I don he's going to do next.
I will say, though, there's some crazy irony in that, and I don't know if y'all have heard it yet, but I know all these things are happening in real time. Every minute there's like a new update and stuff.
Yeah, yeah. As we said, there are no facts in this podcast.
These are all sweeping judgments. Keep going, Josh.
Apparently, apparently, they are not going to give that McDonald's worker the reward that they were advertising which is low-key hilarious because if I lost out on $60,000 I would be mad enough to shoot somebody I don't understand what the logic is behind that by the way the reward or not giving no they're not giving the reward I don't understand why like apparently you've got to like claim it ahead of time type thing but i don't know what you've heard this is yeah so what i've heard is that um it's quote-unquote complicated which is a hilarious statement because it wasn't complicated what that man was right there but apparently it's complicated because it has the actual reward to go out has to be approved by like two different bodies. And the first reward of $10,000, because remember, first it was $10,000.
And then they were like, oh, we're upping it. Apparently, only one authorized person said that, not the other one.
So then they're like, oh, we're not going to give you the money. And we got the guy.
And what are you going to do?

Sue us?

We're the FBI?

You see, the system doesn't care about you.

No, it doesn't.

I think this story, I mean, it's, you know, look,

I'll echo what you said, Christiana.

I am not happy for anybody to be shot.

I do not wish for any CEO to be shot, et cetera.

But, but, but, I found it interesting that companies and CEOs saw this moment first and foremost through the lens of them and their safety and their ideas, then seeing it through like how people were responding to it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Like, if, think about it this way. When Donald Trump, someone tried to shoot Donald Trump,

I don't know what the exact number was but it felt like half the country was like oh no and then maybe like 30 even 20 was like yeah maybe maybe but it didn't feel like a unanimous thing right this is donald trump someone would who people would argue the most polarizing figure in american politics and yo when the ceo guy got shot twitter had some of the meanest and funniest memes produced in one 24-hour cycle i i don't there wasn't even a single person who was like guys guys guys this is too soon yeah i've never seen jokes never be too soon and i don't understand why they why they didn't think of that first like why was their first thought oh this shows you how dangerous it is to do our jobs and not oh this shows you how the things we're doing in our jobs are so shitty that the whole country yeah is full of assassin think that in order to effectively do the job of a ceo especially when it comes to something that deals with human life, you have to be nearly sociopathic in nature. And so then your personal well-being is still like enough of a hierarchy in your mind that you don't think about things in the way that it would almost make sense to think about them, if that makes sense.
It does. So for me, like a good example, I know a lot of dudes who used to be a bouncer.

And all those dudes that used to be a bouncer, the same thing happens. Somebody finally pulled a gun on them and they were like, you know what? I don't need this job, right? But it was a thing of like, oh, I'm going to do something different because I don't like what's happening right now.
So them taking down all their info and not just being like, you know what? Everybody gets free anesthesia for the next six months. Like they didn't try to like buy some goodwill.
They didn't try to like change anything about the practices. And I think that speaks to like a deeper issue in the psyche.
They don't think like us because they don't have to, if that makes sense. Also, I feel like, I don't know, maybe because I'm a foreigner here, violence seems so ambient in America.
Like there's always shootings, right? And for the first time, I think for like regular people, it finally happened to a person that is normally like immune to that type of violence. Like how often do you, like you hear about kids getting shot in school all the time, like to the point we've kind of been desensitized to school shooting.
How many times do you hear about a CEO getting shot? And to a lot of people, CEOs are the enemy. So it was like, now's the time to get the jokes off, honestly.
Cause like these are people that don't ever experience violence in the way that you know what i think it also was it's also the fact that it felt like it was targeted in a clean and specific way do you know what i mean like every time we we read a story in the news about a shooter public event they might leave a manifesto they might but it feels like like such an attack on everybody that the people, everyone in the community, even whether or not you're directly in that community or not, you feel terrorized by the act. This guy was so precise and so clean with it.
And again, just in case you're listening, I do not approve any of these things. I'm just pointing out how it was perceived perceived by myself And many other people It was so clean and precise That nobody else felt like it could have happened to them And nobody else felt like it was meant to happen to them It's almost like, yeah, this was between you and him, man Yes, yes You should only be scared if you're the CEO of a health company That's what I mean Everyone else, it was like, it's Wednesday Whereas when you read all these other stories where they'll say, oh, this person had an issue.
They were bullied at school. You're like, yeah, but they shot all the kids.
They didn't just shoot the kid who was the main bully. They shot all the kids.
And this guy or whoever actually did it, this person went, shot the person. And then, did you see in the video, there's the lady drinking her coffee or she's drinking something in the video and the shooting happens and then she just like runs off she's also like oh this has nothing to do with me you know what I mean she doesn't she puts her hands up she doesn't start screaming she just like goes like well clearly these two people have some sort of disagreement and it is not about me I'm gonna move I thought it was like a lover you know where my mind goes what i thought it was like a like a jilted lover and he was coming back to get his revenge you thought a ceo of a healthcare company getting shot was about what books are you reading you don't want to know no no a lot of people thought that a lot of people were like you don't want to A lot of people were like, oh, him and his wife have been separated.
He probably cheated. She went ahead.
No. And so I think that the difference with this one as well is that there's nothing that reminds you of the circles and the class affairs like healthcare does and access to it.
Because even with tech, because remember when that tech CEO got stabbed in San Francisco, nobody was like, oh, they're after us as CEOs. Because like startups and all that stuff is like still in the culture as like a way to lift yourself up.
And we don't see tech and tech bros in that. Even though we make fun of them, we don't see them as the enemy as much.
Right. Whereas health care, if you've ever had somebody sick in your life, if you've ever been sick and you were like, I followed all the rules.
I gave you money every month for seven years, and now you're playing me because you can, because you're in that higher echelon of this unspoken caste system, then yeah, you now are a representative of the most evil thing. Also, the thing with healthcare is that it doesn't matter how much money you have, you have a complaint about the American healthcare system.
Yes. Because I speak to my super wealthy friends and their doctors no longer take insurance because the doctors are being screwed by the insurance payments.
So they're like, yeah, if I want to give birth, I pay $20,000. That's ridiculous.
I shouldn't, you know, like I have health insurance. But so like, whether you're the poorest of the poor or the super wealthy, you feel screwed by system so you're like all right and look i know we're going back and forth you know everyone colloquially would say health insurance company health care company health care but um it's important to remember that this company didn't provide health care okay this is just an insurance company for people's health so what you do is you pay them to ensure that you have care when something goes wrong um and yeah it turns out a lot of the time i think it's like 30 or somewhere up there they're one of the highest in the country they do not give you that issue but it is it is rare that an issue affects as many people across different race gender class lines as the healthcare industry in america you know what i mean and actually i want to do this like i know there's a bunch of manifestos that have come up but apparently this is like the the most recent slash most confirmed one by the most news agencies again if it's not.
But they're all similar. But this one is like apparently- The one they said he did.
Yeah, this is apparently. It says, to the feds, I'll keep this short because I do respect what you do for our country.
To save you a lengthy investigation, I state plainly that I wasn't working with anyone. This was fairly trivial.
Some elementary social engineering, basic CAD, a lot of patience. The spiral notebook, if present, has some straggling notes and to-do lists that illuminate the gist of it.
My tech is pretty locked down because I work in engineering, so probably not much info there. I do apologize for any strife of traumas, but it had to be done.
Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. A reminder, the US has the number one most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly 42 in life expectancy.
United is the, and there's an indecipherable thing, largest company in the US by market cap, behind only Apple, Google, Walmart. It has grown and grown, but as our life expectancy? No, the reality is these indecipherables have simply gotten too powerful, and they continue to abuse our country for immense profit because the american public has allowed them to get away with it obviously the problem is more complex but i do not have space and frankly i do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument that's a pretty gangster line by the way i like how he has humility he really does like this guy's like gonna go like take out a ceo and he's like look hey man i also i also admit i don't know everything but i'm gonna act on what i know hashtag humble yeah i will say that's a that's powerful for all of us to follow in life the humility and then the last part is he says but many have illuminated the corruption and greed eg rosenthal more decades ago and the problems simply remain it's not an issue of awareness at this point but clearly power games at play evidently i'm the first to face it with such brutal honesty i'll pitch you this reading that from him was a reminder that when you read a history book like shake wavar and them really were just making it up as they went jimmy when you when you look at like any sort of movement or any sort of revolutionary something because they're gone and because they're like an idea yes we think of them as people who had the whole plan from the beginning and in this in like this to me is the is the most perfect example of why like for everyone's sake for the people with and for the haves and have nots for everyone's sake, for the people with and for the haves and have nots, for everyone's sake, our institutions genuinely need to start working the way they're supposed to work.
Like no more free passes for like, like, uh, politicians, no more free passes for anyone because this person has basically said in, in no uncertain terms, right? Y'all, I'm only a little bit crazy. Like, I'm literally just crazy enough to do this, but I'm not insane.
Like, either this is going to happen or you're going to take care of the issue. Because we act as if we act like you see Josh Shapiro and them get up there and scold the American public.
This person is not a hero and it's like all right that's all well and good and i actually i i uh agree with your sentiment but you of all people should be working as hard as you can to save those ceo lives by passing laws that rein them in you cannot tell people listen this is the way it's going to be and you're gonna have to like it and those people have guns in america i also i also think this this this is what i mean by who is allowed to kill so we forget that laws were made by people and laws were made by people for people we forget this right oftentimes people think about laws as if these were things that were passed down from the heavens, but laws were actually created by people for people. Okay.
One of those laws in most countries in the world is that your fate and how guilty you are is decided by people. So in America, you have a jury system, but in other places they go to judge.
A person will say, yeah, you should go to jail for what you did. And I'm basing this on the law that was created by the people what i think a lot of people don't realize in this by the way is in a strange way if the majority like the vast majority of the country is for this guy in the strangest way like in a warped way you then sort of have to question the whole system to go oh wait is wait, is the system the thing that is right as it stands? Yeah.
Or is this expression of what this guy did exposing that the system is wrong and it's not with the people? Does this make sense? Yeah, it's kind of like that. No, it makes sense.
Like if all the people are against the system, then who is the system for? You know that saying that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter? Yes. I think to like people are very pro-law enforcement, they're like, you know, you can't just have people going around shooting someone because they don't like the way they're doing their job.
Right. Which is, to me, very reasonable.
And then you go on Twitter, because, you know, in the bullet casings, I don't know, I don't speak that. Oh, yeah, yeah.
They're all like, deny, depose. Deny, depose, and delay.
Delay. Yeah.
And that became a hashtag on TikTok and Twitter. And people are telling these horrific stories about their experience with the American healthcare system and watching their loved one die.
Yeah. And they're like, this guy did something that I would have loved to do, but I was on the phone to customer service for hours.
Crying because of my family. Crying because of claims and people talking about, you know, when you max out a half a million for intensive care with your baby, you have to pay out whatever comes after that.
So like, you know, people see him as a freedom fighter. And then other people are like, well, if we allow this to happen, it's like America's eventual decay.
Yes, but I think the people who are saying that, first of all, you must look at who they are. Again, it's such a hard conversation to have because everyone will try and paint you as if you are pro just killing a person, which I'm not.
You know those natural experiments that you never expect in the world, but then are forced to live through. They happen to you and they force you to think about what's happening in society, right?

If I think of the Sackler family, right?

The Sackler family is responsible for killing millions of people in America

or whatever number, right?

Hundreds of thousands at least.

They are partly responsible for doing this

in many ways actively, right?

They're not in jail.

They're not going to be, you know, put on trial in that, all of all of this stuff all of this they're not going to be treated the way he was and so in a strange way to your point i go corporations and giant groups of powerful people is the domain of the powerful like this is the land of the kings right they get to do a thing to a group of people. And we don't call that, quote, unquote, murder or an assassination.
They just go like, no, they were irresponsible. And they put profits over people's health and safety.
But I'm like, okay, but then what happened to the people that they did it to? Well, many people died. Ah, so they weren't killed.
They just happened to die, right? And so in a a weird way if this guy had started a company somehow made it about health care created a drug that this guy needed gave him too much of the drug or too little of the drug and then this guy died then luigi wouldn't be going to jail absolutely it's just about like how instantly and he did it and how much he did out of the system that he gets treated differently. And again, I'm going to say it's a thousand times because you know how the world is.
I'm not for what he did, but it just throws up like an interesting, do you know what I mean, Josh? Like it throws up an interesting conundrum. Because the same people who are pro the system apply it differently depending on who is doing the killing.
They turn around, turn a blind eye greed yes talk i would call it some people call it corporate manslaughter i call it like corporate freaking murder right yeah i think that also if you um are able to spread as much of the culpability as possible we we have a hard time imagining 1000 people in a company being liable for one murder, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, completely.
So that also takes away some of it, even in the person's mind who does it. Because I think the thing that, I won't say no one wants to say, because I'm not acting like I'm some complete outlier in my rhetoric over it, but I think the thing i have not heard anyone say is that um this man luigi committed murder but he did not commit the murder of an innocent man and i think that's where everyone's struggling i think that is where a lot of people are struggling yeah i mean because it's like i understand what the josh shapiro's and even what the news to a certain degree is doing where they're like no we can't just have murder blah blah and I get that but he killed a killer so like when it's on Dexter we love it yeah that's true so so how are we now so shocked that people mostly and people who have been killed by the way because that that's the other thing that I think a lot of I won't put it on all of like white america or anything because they obviously have their own factions and their own sections and stuff like that but that's what a lot of people don't even understand about like gang culture is that it's like someone eventually gets got you stay in the street long enough you get your people yeah and then you get got and then there are people that were that were never going to come for you.

But they're waiting for the day that you get God because you killed their cousin.

And I and so they don't necessarily you were responsible for the. Yeah.
And they weren't involved in gang anything, but they are happy the day you get. That's that's a great analogy, actually.
Yes. And so I think that's what a lot of the, I you could say upper echelon or or the well-off parts of america do not understand because they are so used to having like swift and definitive justice for themselves yeah that they cannot put themselves in the shoes of someone who did something to you and that's just how it is and that's just gonna that's just what.
And so then I move on and you have to live with it. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.
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For these and more conversations with government, business, and cultural leaders, search Tools and Weapons wherever you listen to your podcasts. Josh, I was wondering something, because I think on here we speak a lot about young men being radicalized.

That was my thing.

That was my Trump assassination take.

I was like, these white boys are going crazy, guys.

We need to get them jobs.

But this guy had all the jobs.

And right.

And all the money. There are some people saying on the more right-wing media that this is a clear case of left-wing indoctrination.
You send your

kid to these prep schools, then they go to the Ivies, they come across these crazy ideas,

and then look what we have here. We have someone that, you know, a boy that had his whole future

ahead of him decided to shoot a CEO. And that is some of the rhetoric we're seeing out there.
Do

you feel he fits under the young man radical legislation, whether it's to the left or the

right? Because we're seeing this happen on both sides of the spectrum. Like there was a kid that

Thank you. And that's some of the rhetoric we're seeing out there.
Do you feel he fits under the young man radicalization, whether it's to the left or the right? Because we're seeing this happen on both sides of the spectrum. Like there was a kid that set himself on fire for Palestine last year, if you remember.
And so it's just like, do you think he fits that category or he's just like something else entirely? yeah personally i don't because i don't see any of the um think I think the blinders that we have as Americans are like almost like when you go into the 3D theater and they give you the glasses and one side is red and one side is blue and it's about to shape how you see everything. So you're going to see this 3D world because you have the red on and the blue on together.
And I think that if you go to one of those 3D movies without the glasses on and you're just like, this is bad.

This is this doesn't make any sense. That is who I think he is.
I don't think there was a there was a Republican or a Democratic agenda, because if you pay attention to Republicans and Democrats, they're both for the health insurance companies. And there's nothing to me that uh politics with it as far as the online radicalization because everyone there are people so even people who are pro-cop are like hey sometimes dudes gotta get got he yeah do you know what I mean and so so I don't think he got radicalized in a normal um work out jordan peterson pipeline if that makes sense do you want to what my take is because it sounded like my favorite workout workout jordan i mean we haven't we haven't spoken about his appearance no i just think that's a funny workout jordan peterson he's very ripped he's very ripped very handsome um i won't on that too much, but that is informing why some people are treating him this way.
But I think they spoke about him having these back issues. I actually argue, before you move on, I actually think it's the other way around.
I think, you know, sort of in the same world that Josh is in, I think we might be looking at a lot of this backward right we're going oh because he's hot people are treating him differently because he's good looking people are treated because he's white people are treated because he's this because i think it's literally the other way around i think because he went after somebody who represented something that everyone considers a deep enemy. And I mean a deep enemy because in the most extreme cases, they've lost family members because of this.
Or they themselves are in like chronic pain and cannot get help because of this system. And this is a company that denies one in five claims.
I think because of that, people are able to see things. So like, yes yes obviously there were people who would always think he's good looking because he's good looking maybe but i think more people can see his good lookingness because he did a thing that they approve of i'm telling you no no no he is stadiums above i don't know christiana i'm not beautiful man keep you said you don't want to dwell but i feel like you want to dwell on his looks like no the first when you saw the first image where the mask was down I was like you cannot send this man to prison he needs to be like in a Calvin Klein ad and then you're seeing more pictures like even like the mug shot he's serving yes yes yes Trevor that is shaping how women and gay men feel about this.
I'm just going to speak on all about. I'm not taking that away.
What I'm saying is this, okay, to Josh's point. Like if somebody, you know, the enemy of my enemy in a way, right? There are people, as you say, Josh, who are pro law enforcement, who are like, yeah, but in this instance, I'm with him.
There are people who are anti-gun, who are like, yeah, but in this instance, sometimes you got to do what you got to do. But because this guy has done something that most people would argue is almost like morally correct, which is weird, by the way, because it's morally accepted or morally correct.
They then are able to put aside that that that butts heads with what they normally agree or disagree with in this instance yes exactly exactly that's why i don't think his radicalization was like of the norm because he somehow by just this this is i'll pitch you this and now please don't put me on a list this is going to make me sound radicalized. But I cannot get over what I was saying before off of what he wrote.
I don't think he's someone that was radicalized. I think he was someone who, in H.G.
Wells' Time Machine, the perspective of the author is someone who's not of that time in the future where people are just kind of willy--nilly and like they're willing to let someone drown and not do anything or whatever he's like the only one that's like hey hey everybody everybody something has to be done i'm saying that like from what he wrote if you take him at his word he's like the first domino had to drop and it was it just was me because it just was and that's actually someone who the thing that they do may be crazy but that's not a crazy thing to think right if you've ever been out with your friends and you're the only sober one and everybody's drunk there's it's one of the hardest things to do is move a party of drunk people out of somewhere and so so now you're the one that's like kind of being the the jerk in a way that's yelling like okay okay okay okay we gotta go way and i think that that is more what he thinks he did than any form of like he's he himself said he's like i'm not even the most qualified to have this discussion i'm just telling you you're not invincible the way you treat people matters like whatever people are going to insert into this and maybe put in the zeitgeist is like that was his intention. And that doesn't feel as crazy to me as like someone who is like Unabomber.
Right. Because this dude managed to Venn diagram Kyle Rittenhouse and SEAL Team 6.
everyone this dude this dude managed to get the people who are super super left

the people who are super, super left, the people who are super, super right, and even the cops, you could see the cops weren't looking hard. The cops got family in hospital.
Oh, man, that's true, actually. That's why they were brushing those leaves.
He ain't over here. I cut you off the way.
So you were going down a rabbit hole. What I was going to say, I think the back thing, that's something I've been thinking about since yesterday.
The fact that he lives with chronic pain and had this surgery that made it worse. So it's technically, in a way, disabled or has this disabling event.
Any type of chronic issue, especially in American healthcare system, can make you crazy. And I'm not saying what he did was in the moment of craziness, but being in constant pain and the people that are supposed to take care of you do not will take you to a place where most people are just like, I'm just going to stuff myself with opiates.
Do you know what I mean? And he's like, we have to do something about it. But you see, to Josh's point though, and I think this is where we, you know, Josh, this is where I think you and I are literally on the exact same side of seeing this is the word crazy here is for me the key.
Because I agree with you. Somebody in chronic pain can do something crazy.
Yeah. But oftentimes those people, the crazy goes everywhere.
Whether it's a guy in Japan who goes to a preschool and stabs a bunch of kids, whether it's like somebody in Australia who walks into a crowd and shoots a bunch. And then they all leave some sort of manifesto and they go like, the world is this or my company did this.
And people are like, wait, you stabbed preschoolers because your company fired? Wait, what is happening? And then here to what Josh is saying and i think what a lot of people are feeling is the guy's like yes i'm chronically in pain but i'm not going to shoot a nurse i'm not going to shoot a doctor i'm not going to shoot an ambulance driver i'm not going to shoot anyone who works in a hospital i'm not going to shoot my doctor i'm not going no no i am going to go to the person who i think has the most impact on this system and i I'm basically going to take like an assassin's Reaganomics approach and say this thing will trickle down. And that to me seems like the opposite of crazy.
Again, not for or against. I think he's got, but you know, Mitrov, I think everybody's got a little bit of crazy.
Then to me, I go that's like. To live in this simulation, you cannot be sane, right Right But I think I think It was a very lucid thing Like Because What was that Guys do you know how Have you ever engraved A bullet case This is a very Have you ever held Didn't he make it like a 3D gun Have you ever held a bullet Have you ever held a bullet No Let me tell you something Bullets are tiny Especially in that type of gun Right Engraving that thing Takes a lot of Like Dexterity I mean he's got an engineering degree Yes but my Yes but my point is This is not a like Man I'm gonna do something about it And then go outside No You're sitting there You've got your bullet Yeah You're like working away You think You can't make any spelling errors Yeah Right Because that's not gonna That's not gonna get Deli doesn get the same effect when people find the stuff.
Do you know what I mean? Do you think he whistled while he made them? I'm just saying most people who are working, creating things, especially tiny things, whether it's trains or planes, will generally, you know, they'll work on it. And I, yeah, I think, I don't know.
Look, again, and I'm going to throw this disclaimer in one more time. We do not know everything.
This is sweeping judgments from everything we do know, from everything we do know, or what we think we know right now. Could all be wrong.
Might be wrong. Let's work on what we have.
We look at, like, even, like, the books and stuff that he was reading, and then, like, the reviews that he apparently left on some of them. By the way, he also followed Trevor on Twitter.
So he's a man of taste. He must say that.
Can I give him props? He followed a broad range of people. AOC, Joe Rogan, me, Steve-O.
Like, this is like a broad... I think he followed Elon on Twitter as well.
Like, it's a broad range of people. Yeah.
And if anything, he made me think, huh, should I not be broadening my... Well, you know you're safe if he gets off non-guilty.
No, no, no, no, no. I think of it more like this.
I thought to myself, if this young man could... Because someone said to me, they're like, why would he follow you and Joe Rogan? And I was like, actually, you know what? If this young man could see any similarities in something between me and Joe Rogan, then maybe I could do a better job of that as well.
That's what I thought to myself. And so I think when I look at this person, I will say this, good luck to them finding a jury that is going to find him guilty or even a jury who won't pull that, you know that law, it's like a, what is it called? It's like some weird, there's like this weird law in America, jury nullification, I think it's called or something, where jury can be like, yeah, the person did it, but you know what, man? It's like some weird There's like this weird law in America Jury nullification I think it's called Or something Where jury can be like Yeah the person did it But you know what man It's alright The jury's gonna be tainted Just because Who hasn't had a terrible experience With healthcare companies In this country But this But this is exactly my point I'll pitch you This is exactly my point I'll pitch you this All that dude gotta do Is roll up in there and be like, y'all, I am so sorry.

I've been crazy.

And I was on the phone with United Healthcare and nobody would take my call.

And so I was trying not to do this for six months.

Because remember, y'all, I went missing.

Remember when I went missing?

And so then I was on the phone with them that whole time I was missing.

And then they didn't pick up.

So I was like, let me go see him.

Damn.

Everything you're saying.

Everything you're saying.

Also, if you want to talk about safe CEOs, I know that the CEO of Starbucks must have signed a breath of relief.

That man hit a Starbucks right before he did it.

And then CEO of McDonald's, too.

McDonald's probably like, oh, thank goodness. Oh, all right.
Oh, boy. Okay.
There's an interesting, I'm not sure if it was a study or if it was just a piece of work that was done on how collective groups can shift individual morals. And it literally spoke to this idea of everything that people will do as part of a company they would never do as a person yeah do you know what i mean yeah for sure and i think what this what this kid allegedly did is he sort of poked a hole in the idea that a corporation isn't people.
Do you know what I mean? Because we often act like corporations are not people. We go like, well, the company, the company, the company, the company.
And then it's like the company, and you cannot send a company to jail. That's literally the law.
So they go like, you can't. What are you going to do about it? And so the company's fine and the company company and then he came along and he was like oh no no no guys it's not the company you know in the same way when you when you go on a safari they say the reason animals don't jump in and eat you is because the lions see you as one unit with the vehicle so they don't see people inside the car they go this thing rumbles past us

and it doesn't eat us and doesn't fight with us so we don't care about it and it's not our prey whatever and they leave it alone and in a weird way it feels like what he did here for many people was he went yes i know that this behemoth is unstoppable it is unsuable it is unbeatable it is unquestionable. It's everything.
But you know what it has? People who run it. And by piercing that veil, I think a lot of the people who run it now go like, ugh.
Think twice. Yeah, because let me put it this way.
The fact that this is what I also realized from this whole incident, is like companies don't give a shit.

They truly don't.

Now, there are companies who are selling benign products,

and it's like, all right, whatever.

This is a drink you like, you know, a vacation.

Yeah, I don't hate companies, right?

But there's an element of that company,

they don't give a shit.

And you see the levels of don't give a shit

even in the story.

This guy gets shot, the CEO. He was going for an investor meeting you know they still held meeting yeah like some gang they still had that beat they the mob doesn't do that the mob if if somebody in no godfather movie did somebody get pop pop and they were like so you were saying that's never happened in a mob they held the meeting r.i.p moment of silence yo but they react meeting going ahead is the most chilling thing and then how did they and then how did all these health care companies react they pulled down their leadership from every website yeah but here's my thing if they believe that this thing was so dangerous that they need to pull down their faces why would they not like get protection for everyone why would they do you get what i'm saying it's such a like nefarious it's all about us it's the the top and it's the ceos i'm like you guys you can't even act like good guys in this moment you can't even come out and go man you know we we don't like what happened but we need to have conversations about what the health care industry how we are perceived because if one of us is shot and everyone is happy maybe it's time for us to look inward and be like damn maybe there's something we are doing or aren't doing it and i go back to by the way the trump assassination thing i said this people disagreed with me whatever what i said like afterwards you look at those few weeks after trump was shot at he was a little calmer he was just a little bit like hey man you know you know come on guys like hey man and i i think there's a there's like a humanness that companies just don't encourage in people and this got exposed by it even for the like if you work for this company why would you even like why would you why would you help them make themselves worse when they've shown you that if the worst that they do comes back on you they don't give a shit about you well if you lose your job you lose your health

insurance the grand irony right it's probably the grand yeah the grand irony don't go anywhere

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That's ziprecruiter.com slash T-R-E-V-O-R. This is once again going to make me sound like I've been radicalized or something, and I genuinely have not.
Right. Disclaimer, disclaimer.
But another thing that I think was was on people's minds and and was a thing to root for with this guy is we are in the year of what feels like open murders by corporations that Boeing guy that second Boeing guy the whistleblower deaths that have been happening in American companies are like so undertone scary that I think people were like yeah that like you cannot separate that in my mind it felt it really felt like and Goliath. Yes, because because like when you look at Boeing, all that dude said was what we already knew, by the way.
The dude, the dude that got like mysteriously murdered in the parking lot of his hotel room right before he was supposed to testify in court, all that stuff. That dude, all he did was he had worked at Boeing for like, I think, 19 years or something that.
But he was like, the plane door gonna fly off. We already saw the plane door fly off.
So he didn't even have any secrets. He was just about to say it in court.
And he mysteriously dies. A dude who no one actually knows where that dude is.
I think that that's a big part of it. You think it'll change anything? I think if there's copycats, I think it could.
Huh. I think if that's a big part of it You think it'll change anything? I think if there's copycats I think it could Huh, that's interesting I think if there's copycats And I do think there's a high chance there could be Because there's a lot of people out there that feel they have nothing to lose You know So you think the one, no? No, I don't think one's enough Because I don't think that health insurance companies are scared enough.
And there's like trillions on the line. Like it's a lot of money, right? And they can hire security and do all these things.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But if it becomes a thing of like, you know how Robin Hood would like steal from the rich and give to the poor? And it's like there's people out there who are disgruntled and they shoot people high up at health insurance companies.
It completely changed how they operate. But I don't think one's enough.

Not that I'm trying to say people should do more.

Please.

Everything disclaimer, disclaimer.

I don't want that smoke.

But I just don't think one's enough.

But I think if there's copycats, it's game over.

Yeah.

I also think more would be bad because a lot of people don't have aim.

Yeah.

That's why people thought he was a professional assassin. No, but he got up really close i mean people forget that he got up really really yeah you like like there are people who who say uh the whole sniping from far away thing is like a thing in the movies that's like no this is more real like up close that's you know this is what's happening in like developing countries all around the world people who are like running to clean up government you don't get got from far oh my god for the most part yeah just someone comes up even even think of like okay wasn't it like a balcony no i think they're a lot closer he was on a balcony right i think they're a lot closer than you think is what's always yeah i think he i think he got caught because, yeah, MLK was on a balcony, but he shot him, I think they're a lot closer than you think is what's always the case.
Yeah, I think he I think he got caught because yeah, MLK was on a balcony but he shot him I think in the picture they're pointing at Yes, they are. Where the shot came from.
They're like, there he is. Yeah.
It's one of those It's one of those things. I've, you know, maybe I've watched too many movies.
I always thought it was just like that sniper thing and people are super far. Yeah, you know, can I say, talking about movies, I,'t disclaimer disclaimer i don't disclose i don't condone anything blah blah um i was disappointed at how he got caught in a mcdonald no no like what i mean is like you know it seemed so like you know like it was just like wow well that's why black people don't believe it's him you know that right? no I know I know the conspiracies because it was just like the guys seemed to do everything like really well and then all of a sudden it was like oh found with a bag with everything in it at a McDonald's I think he didn't mind getting caught he did what he wanted to do he wanted to kill the CEO and everything after that at a McDonald's, just chilling? I think he didn't mind getting caught.
He did what he wanted to do. He wanted to kill the CEO.
And everything after that was a bonus. I think he probably thought he'd be caught sooner.
Oh, interesting. Yeah, because there's no, he had the weapon on it, allegedly, because some people say they planted stuff, but he had a weapon on him.
He had a manifesto on him. He's telling the cops how he did it in his note.
I feel like he was just like, like i want to i'm going to kill that guy that's what i want to do and we'll see what happens next i don't think he was like on the run and trying to like going to be a shadows but maybe josh you disagree i well i only slightly disagree i first i thought what exactly what christian thought so so when i heard that they even had a suspect or that like he took his mask down or something i was like i this person's either like really dumb or they don't mind getting caught uh but i personally this is just me i think he was on the way to do it again oh i think that i think where they caught him what they caught him with it screams someone who's not done to me. Like that, like, like, I think he was.
Yeah, I can take that. I think he was in, in, I'm surprised the news hasn't like said that or no one that I saw on the news has theorized that because to me to have everything with you, like crackheads don't do that.
Like to have everything on you from the crime you committed days ago, by the way, this stuff is heavy after a while. You're not going to lighten your load, throw it in a trash can two states away or something? So, I mean, my thing is, if this kid is trying to get away, his family owns two country clubs, right? When you fly private, they don't check you for weapons.

They don't check.

So all he has to do is fly private to the other side of the country and then take a bus into Mexico.

He already had the head start of Central Park, which I don't think people realize how much he was not going to get caught.

Also, the Central Park, this is the one thing that's confused me.

The police said that he

went into central park and then appeared on the other side without the backpack that's what they

said that was the original statement right so i don't know if you know anything about the theory

the the theory that i've seen right is that a lot of what people are saying because the police and

i don't just mean nypd i mean any police department department is never going to go out of their way, even if it means telling the truth to make themselves look incompetent, stupid, corrupt, whatever. And so there were there were some people that were saying this thing, like the thing that you just read was when they were looking at a different person and they were wrong.
And now that would make sense. Do you know what I mean? So they were wrong about that thing, which I think is why they haven't said it again.
And now that he's got the backpack, they were like, yeah, he had the backpack the whole time. By the way, can I just say one of the funniest moments? I think it was Eric Adams who came out and he was like, we solved this case using good old fashioned police work.
It's like, no, someone snitched. Yeah.
It's just another example of like, where it's like, yeah, it showed me how incompetent the police was. There's nothing.
Like, even now I'm like, you guys got outsmarted by a kid and literally got caught because someone in McDonald's was like, Oh, he's a weirdo. Yeah.
Someone snitched. And that was it.
Like that was literally the fact that they are not giving that, that worker the money. Josh is trying to radicalize this'm just gonna put it out there the worker should have been radicalized working in mcdonald's because i'm sure they don't have health insurance and i'm just like shocked yeah lack of class solidarity shocks me i'm just saying like you you robbed me of 60k i'm not saying i would i'm just saying people have done it for less i'm you're not saying you would i just think it's wild you might you might buy a backpack yeah but maybe we're underestimating how much like regular americans do hate crime because if it's like a just a regular person working in mcdonald's who's like hey police i think i found him that maybe there could be a jury in new york like if they get people from like you know queens and island who'd be like Guilty I hear you But I think I found him.
Maybe there could be a jury in New York. If they get people from like Costa Queens and Staten Island who'd be like guilty.
I hear you, but I think Josh's theory is the best I've heard. And it's that because you don't know what you're dealing with.
Because think again, let's look at America through a larger lens. Any shooter that people talk about is shooting everyone.
So we have had very few if any instances of a like a targeted single shooter that doesn't endanger another person type even the person people always forget at trump's assassination somebody else died like no one no one talks about that right it's not like the bullet didn't kill another human being people are just like thank god nothing I'm like no no no There's a man who lost his life

He was just standing at the rally

So Yeah You get what I'm saying Yeah So It's very rare That Anyone who's shooting Doesn't involve other people Who They either didn't want to Or didn't care to involve Same with gang violence How many times Are little kids shot In the midst of gang And And then the gangsters will be like, we didn't want to do it.

And community is like, we don't care. You did it.
So I can see somebody seeing that guy in the McDonald's and like, oh, man. That's why Josh's theory is completely, I can see.
Because you don't know what's about to happen. But I think when it comes to jury time, it's going to be a very different story.
because now people are like,

if his lawyer is in any way shape or form allowed to bring up anything that united healthcare does i think it'll be tough for a jury to give this this kid everything i mean he's a rich kid so he's not going to have a public defender yeah his family's this is going an interesting family's gonna hire the best possible as any parent should this is gonna be the biggest case ever christiana's gonna be at the courthouse by the way with a giant sign that says take it off i do i do think one last thing about the mcdonald's worker that that turned that in. This is probably way off base, but I think in their mind, they're like, okay, people miss all the time.
And Trump did just work at McDonald's for 15 minutes somewhere else. What if that man, what if this dude knows something I don't know? I don't want to catch anything in the crosshairs at the fryer station.
You know what? I'm mcdonald's employee i would love to hear from them i think everybody that's the real third act in the story oh you think that's the real third act yeah oh interesting yeah i'm just because they're a polarizing person i feel like that that's the epilogue yeah people say if it was popeyes they would have been like giving him more chicken and sent him on his way i i think you know one of the great the great, I mean, irony might be the wrong word about this, but I was thinking to myself, it's so amazing how almost unanimous all the CEOs of these companies, literally, you know, they pulled down their photos. They sent, do you see the emails they sent to employees? No, I didn't.
Healthcare companies have been sending, not manifest, what do you call them? Like pledges to their employees to sign. And the pledge is like, I stand with my fellow healthcare community.
And I believe that no violence should ever be committed against them. I pledge my allegiance to the healthcare company that I work for, insert name here.
Like literally that's what they're going with. And then like none of them went to work and it was a whole thing and i was like it's funny how now ceos are like yeah work from home work from home yeah yeah they were fully like no no everyone's got to be back in the office and then very quickly they're like no no no no no sometimes sometimes you got to work from home man you know sometimes things happen in your life and uh yeah you just gotta chill josh i, I have a question for you that's a little controversial.
If you were on the jury, what's your verdict? Oh, that's a good question. Oh, okay.
Do we know what he's been charged with besides murder? No, let's just say he's charged with murder. That's all I know.
Oh, okay. Here's my thing.
I'm loving this already. I would find him.
Yes. I would probably end up finding him not guilty by reason of insanity.
Oh, okay. Okay.
Christiana? She's going to find him hot guilty. No.
did it my husband was like yesterday he was like you're talking about this guy do you think he's better looking than me I was like absolutely not babe what are you talking about that's what Lou said to me I was like but he doesn't have a beard I wonder how he'd look with a beard. But back to the matter at hand.
Can jury make

sentencing recommendations?

Remember, you know,

I'm an abolitionist.

I think they can

in certain cases.

Yeah.

So I would find him guilty.

Yes.

But I'd give him probation.

Oh.

I'd give him probation.

Damn.

That came out of nowhere.

I would give him

five years probation.

Because you would argue

that he's not a risk?

Because I actually don't think prison doesn't work. All the research shows prison doesn't work.
And I don't feel like he's a danger to other people. Like, you know, I believe in...
Which other people? You know, people like myself. Listen.
Oh my goodness. Okay, okay.
He was reading books by black authors. Go through his Goodreads, you know.
Okay, okay. He with my...
I would... No, but like, I say this about like, murder's a horrible thing.
Like, I experienced it in my family earlier this year. And it's been the first time I actually really had to think about like being an abolitionist and how I feel.
So when it came to my family, you know, everyone feels differently about it. Like, some people are like, they need to spend forever in prison um i do think if prison does what it's supposed to do for people you should go there and be restored and hopefully be left back into society so that's why i would find him guilty because he did take a life right he did commit that murder um maybe it's time to serve some time and then the rest probation because honestly honestly, to the kids of the man, he's not the CEO of a health insurance company.
He's your dad. Yes.
And they have to live without their dad. This is true.
You know, and so it's just like, I think there should be something in place because we have to have some value for life. Even lives I despise.
I'm like, your life has value, right? So I'm like, I'd find him guilty, maybe serve some time. But I don't think he should spend the rest of his life in prison, which I think for a lot of murderers shouldn't spend the rest of his life in prison.
Wow, damn, okay. But, you know, a long time, like 20 years, 30 years.
Wow, that's your life. No, it's not.
That's your life. He is like a hot 22.
That's your life. He's going to come out of me in his 40s.
I'm just going to put it out there. He'll be in his George Clooney era by the time he comes out.
No, I'm just saying. Norway and Sweden don't even do a life sentence as 20.
I can't say the sentence because I don't, you know, I can't say the sentence. I think he should, because also he should like kind of sit down and think about what he wants to do next.
I think he did when he was carving the bullets. No, but you know.
And then probation. And not like like punitive probation Probation with a view of like

You can now contribute something to society

And people would argue he already did

He did, but like in the positive way

Not like addition by

People would argue he already did

Not addition by subscription

But like some addition

You know what I mean?

But that's my view on like people who kill

Okay

And also I feel like

If he was a black guy

We'd probably be having a different conversation right now

So, you know

Okay, okay

Trevor, I'm so sorry

I'm so sorry. That's my view on it.
Do you mind? Based off of Christiana's brilliant answer, I think I need to change my answer. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah.
I would probably find him guilty and I would sentence him to be the ceo of a health care company that's so easy what you got to do it bro what about you trevor um so if if the back pain thing is real and if some of the stories are true and if his lawyer very creatively argued self-defense i would have a difficult time sending him to prison because i think one of the hardest things we grapple with in society is again i come back to how we started i myself wish to live by the rules and the law that everyone else does. But I do believe we live in a society where that isn't true.

And I believe the more power you amass, the more pain you can inflict on other people.

And you're not held to the same laws and the same punishments as everybody else.

And so it is difficult because we ourselves are in the thing that we are trying to, in many ways, reshape and dismantle. So it's like, it's confusing because you're in it, right? But if somebody is unable or is, if their life is being threatened by this nebulous entity and they're like this is the only way i can protect myself and others i would struggle to find them guilty based on the evidence and a lot of that evidence for me would be based on like this company have we shown that they actively try to not pay for people's health care how many people have died because of their practices actively doing this? For instance, like they had that AI software a while ago where they had AI that was basically approving or denying claims.
And the numbers I say might be off, but I think I remember them correctly. This thing was denying like 90% of the claims that were coming through.
and then they found that it had it was making a mistake and they kept it they kept it because they were just like well we're just printing money here and that's just one example of like what this company has been accused of or found guilty of or do you know what i mean 400 billion dollars in profit and whatever or revenue it's like they've been crushing it so i do not wish for the death of anyone but i'm like you the thing has happened now right but it it's a difficult one for me to wrestle with because i do think we live in a world where some people with the right tools and everything can take anyone out and if they are blanketed by enough corporations and ideas then they are seen as a a, you know. Maybe I just see it from his family's side, like his parents, his siblings and his children.
Completely. And you're like, his life had some value to them.
Completely. Because like, for me, my kids, your parents aren't their jobs.
Like even Saddam Hussein's kids. No, no, no, completely.
I love my dad. You know, like these very horrific people.
Yes. And if we believe like all life has inherent value yes but i'm arguing that the value of his life is now not going to be

because remember i'm also an abolitionist remember for me it's based on this does he have a direct

connection with this company and were they doing something to him directly that for me has a big

effect on it because i then go hmm it is difficult for me to then go because someone be like yes but if you have a problem with the company take them to court good luck go go try that you know what i'm saying i'm trying to figure out the ways we hold this young man who's done this thing which yeah for me i which is like you'll go to therapy and we we shut him down and make him accountable because i just i just don't think you should be able to kill people no i don't i don't think so either i mean i don't think so either but i think he's already going to be held more accountable than every ceo of come and remember this is a clear thing a clear thing i want to add in this conversation is i think all three of us agree this is not about being a ceo by the way like ceo is like a loose title people People have it on their dating profiles. So CEO is the thing that I think can sometimes muddy it.
I think people should just ask themselves, like, you know, from a corporation standpoint, from an organizational standpoint, like why is it okay, let's say, for the US government to go in and kill like El Chapo or Osama bin Laden? Why do they do that? Why do they do that? They do it because they go, look, we know that many people are involved in this organization that is taking people's lives. But we figure if we can get to this person who's the head of the organization, we're making the biggest difference.
And that is what we're doing. And then we, and I say we as the collective, most people do not go, oh, the American government murdered Osama bin Laden.
I say that. Okay, you say that.
But most people do not. They'll be like, no, no, no.
They went after the guy and they got him, okay? And El Chapo's alive, but do you get what I'm saying? They'll go like, oh yeah, they shot Pablo Escobar. People won't be like, oh, they murdered him.
They're like, no, no, no, it was a chase. They got him on the roof.
They shot the dude, okay? and so i'm saying in in a weird way here i'm saying on a jury by the way yeah i'm not condoning i'm not agreeing with because everyone has a different way to solve their issues all right i would probably just tweet a lot i'm just going to put it out there i would send very like scathing tweets and see if i can get a response he chose a a different method. We can't go back on that method.
And so I would probably vote that the case is either thrown out or it would just be a not guilty or like a, yeah. There's probably other ones they give you on that piece of paper.
I forget what all of them are from Law and Order. But I'll just be like, yeah, judge, you know, we find the defendant, man, pretty messed messed up this was all messed up so that's how i see it's gonna be the trial of the century it really will let's be honest yeah i mean can you imagine if that kid had blue cross blue shield oh wait that ceo be like oh oh oh man.
United is terrible. Yeah, no.
Sign up with Blue Cross Blue Shield this month. Yeah.
Well, you know what, my friends? These are some of my favorite conversations to have with you because we have no facts. Just feelings.
Just feelings. All speculation.
And if you have listened to this entire conversation conversation remember what I told you at the beginning

none of this is true

none of this is confirmed

none of this is factual

and Josh, Christiana and Trevor

do not stand behind anything

that Josh, Christiana and Trevor

have said

this is our disclaimer

but yeah

thanks for listening again. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl.
Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and

mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening.
Join me next Thursday for another

episode of What Now?