Michelle Williams

Speaker 1 Wondry Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dak Shepard.
You know, I saw a comment. I said Dan Shepard, as I do often.
Yeah. And someone wrote, Why Dan?

Speaker 1 And I wrote,

Speaker 1 I know you're a new listener. Welcome.
Oh, Oh, nice. And then the person wrote, you're right.
I started listening like eight weeks ago or something. Oh, fun.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 And I said, oh, I just get bored saying my name.

Speaker 2 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, I get bored easy.

Speaker 2 I thought maybe he was asking, like, what's, is there an original impetus for it?

Speaker 1 I mean, I always think of the worst thing, right? That's my gift. So my assumption when someone says that is more like,

Speaker 1 they've found out Dax was a bullshit name. Like it was my stage name.

Speaker 1 That's what I maybe fear.

Speaker 1 Anyways, I'm joined by Monica Lily Padman. Real name.
Real name. On your birth certificate and your driver's license.
Today, we have one of the most acclaimed actors we've had on the show. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Michelle Williams.

Speaker 3 Oh, she's so good.

Speaker 1 I wish it said right here, but I want to say it's like five Academy Award nominations or something. Bonkers.
Definitely four, and I think maybe five. Emmy Wynn, Tony nomination.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she's just a powerhouse. Blue Valentine.
Dawson's Creek originally. That's where we fell in love with her.
Broke Back Mountain my week with Marilyn. Manchester by the Sea, my favorite.

Speaker 1 Five nominations. Five nominations.
And her new series that's out now with my former boss, Liz Merriweather, Dying for Sex on FX and Hulu. Right now, I urge everyone to go watch it.
It's a very bold.

Speaker 1 It goes horrid. Yeah, it does.
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Speaker 1 I don't what I saw.

Speaker 1 That's a tour bus. My neighbors think Aerosmith's spending the night.

Speaker 3 Guys, that's so fun and amazing. The kids must love that.

Speaker 1 They do. In fact, last year we were going to go up to Idaho and everyone was busy.
So Kristen was like, let's just fly. We had driven the previous four years in the bus.

Speaker 1 And the kids were like, we're not going unless we're on the bus.

Speaker 3 I'm so jealous. They have bunk beds.
That's my absolute dream for my kids. I once took Matilda in like an RV on like a big road trip and I was like, this is the greatest.

Speaker 3 Oh my god, it's incredible for kids. Like I want to get like an old VW bus and like retrofit it.
Make it cute.

Speaker 1 A micro bus. Yes.
So I love y'all.

Speaker 1 What would you like to drink?

Speaker 3 We have coffee.

Speaker 1 You go pee-pee?

Speaker 3 I know I'm great. I wouldn't mind a water.

Speaker 1 It's an extra iced matcha if you want one.

Speaker 1 Are you coming? Do you want an extra iced matcha?

Speaker 3 Oh no, I have to think about that. It might be a little too late for me.

Speaker 1 I might be up all late.

Speaker 2 You said that.

Speaker 1 It's so blurred. It's too late for a meeting at a party.
I go to to bed early. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's my favorite thing about coming to LA because by nine o'clock, I'm totally comatose and I can't even fight it and pretend to stay up and keep accomplishing. It feels like just being drugged.

Speaker 3 I feel like I'm put under and I love it.

Speaker 1 We want to thank you. We haven't been up here in a long time.
Oh, really? Yeah. We've been downstairs where there's video.
And so we haven't been in the attic for a long time.

Speaker 2 We used to only do this and then we were forced to add video. But we like it.
Now we like it.

Speaker 1 We've been doing it a lot, but this is the original space and it's really nice it's so cozy i'm very happy to be here a lot of tears in here a lot of laughter a lot of a lot of probably toots there's been some unfortunate small room for tooting yeah well we invite it i don't ever do it when there's guests but monica would sit where you're at for the fact check this is a questionable distance right It's also that chair is like a sound absorber.

Speaker 1 Sound absorber and just a muffler in general. And probably absorbent, well, I know absorbent.
And so a lot of times I'm like, yeah, I think that's far enough away for me to try one.

Speaker 1 And I've gotten away with most of them. I usually out myself.

Speaker 2 No, yeah, you do a good job.

Speaker 1 I have a lot of integrity, Michelle. That's so honest.

Speaker 1 I have a lot of tuned integrity.

Speaker 1 Why were you late? What have you been doing? Not to out you for being late. Podcast.
You've been bobbing around. Previous podcast?

Speaker 3 Radio.

Speaker 1 NPR?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah, I was at NPR.

Speaker 1 What show were you doing? Were you with Larry Mantle?

Speaker 3 No, I was not with Larry Mantle.

Speaker 1 Do you know Larry Mantle? No. Okay, this is one of my wife's huge crushes.
I don't know who that is. Oh, she's in love with Larry Mantle.
He's a longtime KCRW NPR. He hosts a few shows.

Speaker 1 He's got a very steady, calming voice. He's older, but that's not who you were with.

Speaker 3 You have a very steady, calming voice.

Speaker 1 Oh, thank you so much. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Where are you going?

Speaker 2 That deck just exploded.

Speaker 3 I have to tune in. You know, it's a tough day for NPR.

Speaker 1 I know. It hasn't been cut, but it's being threatened to be cut.
That and PBS. Yeah.
I rely on frontline.

Speaker 2 I can't.

Speaker 2 I can't. The fact that these are real things.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that these are things that must go. Yeah.
You guys.

Speaker 1 What are we going to do?

Speaker 3 What's the plan? I think the plan might be to get in your bus. Yeah, yeah.
Is that a skull T-Rex?

Speaker 1 We have a lot to catch you up on. Monica and I want to invest in a real T-Rex skull.

Speaker 1 They're very expensive, but we want to monetize it by renting out the mouth and turn it into a sex hotel because people would love to have sex in the mouth of a T-Rex.

Speaker 2 It's very novel.

Speaker 3 I'm sad nobody can see my face right now.

Speaker 1 What do you think? Whoa. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is that like whoa?

Speaker 1 Positive? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Whoa.

Speaker 2 Or just mind-blowing in general?

Speaker 1 Is it the level of creativity that has your mind-blowing? Yeah, kind of.

Speaker 3 I'm also just like thinking, like, what would I do in that sense?

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you would hold on to a tooth at some point, I think.

Speaker 3 You guys go for it.

Speaker 2 Each room has a tooth.

Speaker 1 Michelle, they're so expensive. We heard that Leonardo DiCaprio has a full skeleton.
And I used to know that price tag on it.

Speaker 2 We looked it up once.

Speaker 1 I forget. It's outrageous.
They're very pricey, limited edition.

Speaker 3 One of my little guys is a dino man, and we just got that new apex at the Museum of Natural History. Ooh.

Speaker 1 What's apex?

Speaker 3 It's a perfect Stegosaurus specimen. That's cool.
Just landed.

Speaker 2 Ooh, they call it an Apex if it's perfect.

Speaker 1 Have you read his name?

Speaker 3 I think. I think.
Look, I'm working really hard to catch up to his level of dino knowledge.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's hard to compete. They gobble it up.
Have you read Unstoppable Us to him?

Speaker 3 No, I don't know that one.

Speaker 1 It's Yuval Harari who wrote Sapiens. He did a kids' version of Sapiens.
We've read it to our kids several times. It's incredible.

Speaker 3 Fantastic. His birthday's coming up.
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 They found many of these dinosaurs, ding, ding, ding, in your birthplace. Isn't Montana a big site for these skeletons?

Speaker 3 I think it's why my son loves me. It's a big point of connection for us that Montana is home to so many dinosaurs, especially the Myasaura, the great mother lizard.

Speaker 1 Oh, you know your shit.

Speaker 3 We're deep in. And so, my real claim to fame inside my home is that I am also from Montana, land of many dinosaurs.

Speaker 1 Were you close to Billings or some city?

Speaker 3 I grew up in a town called Kalispell, which was quite small when I was growing up, but now it's become kind of a big box town.

Speaker 3 Kalispell is a beautiful place, but it's close to Whitefish Lake, Flathead Lake, and Cablesio. Sorry, Cablesio.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 3 I'm embarrassed.

Speaker 1 I've seen a lot of cute smiles in my life. I know.

Speaker 1 It's very disarming. It is.
I just imagine a guy pointing a gun at you and saying, like, give me your money. And you hit him with that smile.
Don't you think this is my best defense?

Speaker 1 It has to be a goal. I feel so silly.
What am I doing?

Speaker 1 How can I hurt this little bee?

Speaker 3 That's good to know because somebody told me recently that you should just go for the eyes, but I think instead I'll just give a big smile.

Speaker 1 Because it's so disarming. And then boom, did the eyes.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I thought that was actually really helpful. I hadn't heard the eye thing before.
That was new new information to me.

Speaker 1 That feels like a high probability of failure because you got to practice. And who are you going to practice? Exactly.

Speaker 2 Wait, that's another thing we could have met. A practice dummy.

Speaker 1 Oh, with some kind of gooey.

Speaker 2 Squishy eye. Polyurethane on it.
That's a great one. And it could also double as a, what do they call it?

Speaker 1 Like a sensory slime, fidgetoid, all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 This is a brainstorming addict. We're trying to come up with at least seven good ideas per interview.
Okay, so Montana, you were there till nine. I I was.

Speaker 3 Have you taken the bus?

Speaker 1 Actually, I have. In fact, I was towing an obnoxious trailer and we went, I'm embarrassed to admit, but like one of these conferences and it was at Yellowstone, that fancy place.

Speaker 1 And then everything is set for you, but I had to call ahead and I said, so I have a 45-foot bus and a 22-foot trailer. Is there any place to park for me?

Speaker 1 And they were like, no, we're going to have to meet you at this service lot with the snow plows. So we had to park there and then get.
shuttled into there.

Speaker 3 Was there a real learning curve with that thing?

Speaker 1 For most people, yeah, but I grew up working for General Motors and I've been driving really large things since I was young.

Speaker 3 So you're very comfortable.

Speaker 1 Some would argue too confident. Got it.

Speaker 1 Kristen often says she can't wait for the day that she sees me parallel park as quick as I do and fuck up. She's like, you know, your powers are going to fade.

Speaker 1 And I just can't wait till you just fucking blast into a car or take out the side of the bus. She's really looking forward to that.
But Montana, did you have the childhood I would fantasize about?

Speaker 3 I really did. I think I had the last great American childhood, except for your children.
Okay. Because they have bus life and you're taking them into the national park system.

Speaker 1 I'm jealous of them.

Speaker 3 They're getting what I had.

Speaker 1 They have as many motorcycles as I have. They are so well equipped.

Speaker 3 I love this. So do the motorcycles go on the bus?

Speaker 1 They go on the back of the bus. If we don't have the trailer, then we have this big...

Speaker 1 tray and I put my 11-year-old daughter's motorcycle, now 12, her motorcycle, my motorcycle, and then two electrics for the non-enthusiasts.

Speaker 3 And is her motorcycle gas? Gas.

Speaker 1 But they have electric as well.

Speaker 3 Matilda, my daughter grew up with electric vehicles.

Speaker 1 It's a very good esteem builder. The theory I had was she'll be sitting in class next to somebody and she'll be feeling insecure, but she'll go, I ride a dirt bike.
And they don't do that.

Speaker 1 And that's just one thing. You just need something to cobble together a little.
Confidence.

Speaker 3 I couldn't agree more. Real confidence based on doing things that are scary and knowing that you are capable and that you can trust yourself and that you have good judgment.

Speaker 1 I'm going to add it's a real bonus too if even the boys in your class can't do it.

Speaker 3 Exactly. For girls especially.

Speaker 1 You were fishing and you were shooting guns as a kid, right?

Speaker 3 We were clay pigeons shooting, but I didn't go hunting necessarily, but I went fishing and I had a lot of those experiences in nature of getting confidence through practical life.

Speaker 3 skills that required some level of attention because of possibility for accident.

Speaker 3 Horses, skiing, motorcycles, fishing, all of these things are so important. You think of them as they're typically male, but they're most especially important for girls.

Speaker 2 Did you grow up with motorcycles?

Speaker 3 No, I didn't have any dirt bikes when I was growing up, but they were part of my program for Matilda when she was growing up.

Speaker 1 Wow. Your program.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 So when I grew up in Montana, my big experience there was being on my great-grandparents farm. They had cattle, wheat, and horses.
We lived in town where the grocery store was.

Speaker 1 Town Town in quotes. Yeah, town.

Speaker 3 And they lived more in the middle of the state and they lived on the farm in a much more rural environment. And that's where a lot of my exploring happened.
But we were also skiers, mind you.

Speaker 3 Do I ski now? No. Do I ride a dirt bike now?

Speaker 1 No. Do I fish? No.

Speaker 3 But I have all of those things inside of me. They really were formative in my ideas about who I could be.

Speaker 3 So that when you're sitting in class and and you're next to some jerky guy who's trying to stick his finger in your nose, you're like, no, no, no, no, no. I know myself to be worth more than this.

Speaker 1 There are also really great little trials of being afraid. All these things you would start with fear unless something's wrong with you.

Speaker 1 So just these little ways to confront fear and then get comfortable and then have the pride of having confronted it. All those things are really good.

Speaker 1 How about even on Grandparents' Farm, going on a long walk where you're like, oh yeah, I'm a little scared.

Speaker 3 That was my whole childhood. Every day was come back when you hear the dinner bell.
And we were free to do whatever we wanted as long as we came home when we heard the dinner bell.

Speaker 3 And so it gave us so much time to meander and explore and go down these dirt roads and ride bikes and discover little things and find treasures and take them home and hide them and then take them out in the middle of the night when they thought that we were sleeping and you know, just getting into good trouble.

Speaker 3 And I miss it so much for my own children. I'm constantly thinking about how to create these experiences.
But as you know, it's difficult.

Speaker 3 It requires a lot of infrastructure and undertaking if you live in an urban environment to try and get them out. So can I please come on?

Speaker 3 Is there room for a family of six?

Speaker 1 Yes, we will make room. I might have to tow another living quarters behind it.

Speaker 2 You would love to get another bus going.

Speaker 1 But I can't drive both at one time. Or can I?

Speaker 2 Michelle can drive it.

Speaker 1 I actually can. Okay, great.
You saw it. Fuck it.
Take it for a rip when this is all done. We'll give you a little test.
But you know what else is happening on those walks?

Speaker 1 You scare yourself, that's fun. But then also your imagination's on fire because as beautiful as it is, it's also boring.

Speaker 1 You got to now pretend on this bike ride that you're doing something important.

Speaker 1 I had to make myself some explorer and you're really trying on all kinds of different fun pretend identities.

Speaker 3 You're starting acting. You have to start to storytell with the landscape too.
What is that abandoned house? We shouldn't go in it. There's probably a witch.

Speaker 1 Ooh, yeah.

Speaker 3 There's a witch that lives in that house. And then that becomes part of the play and part of the fantasy, but it just requires tremendous boredom, tremendous freedom, and a total lack of supervision.

Speaker 3 And where are you going to get that these days?

Speaker 1 I know.

Speaker 3 So how do you do that here aside from getting out of here?

Speaker 1 We have been criticized for this publicly. We let our kids go.
I've encouraged them, you want to walk to the store? Go to the store. We were in Denmark and there's the Trifoli Park.

Speaker 1 And so in the morning, we just say to the girls, goodbye. Here's a credit card.
You can spend X amount. And then here's the time you got to meet us.

Speaker 1 So we're very big into just turning them over to the world and hoping for the best. It's worked so far.

Speaker 1 Do you know Leonard Skinese? She is this proponent of free-range parenting. She's great.

Speaker 1 We interviewed her, and she was letting her kid ride the subway at a very young age, but he had mastered the subway. People called her the worst mom in America.

Speaker 2 Abuse claims.

Speaker 1 And the kid's fine and did great. So we're proposing.

Speaker 2 I'm with you guys. Also, Jonathan Haiki has the new book, Anxious Generation.

Speaker 2 This is sort of his antidote to all the stuff that's happening with kids and the isolation is make them have a community, but leave. Go send them off to go explore.

Speaker 1 Unsupervised, as you said, that's the key. But yeah, crossing a river, and this had happen to you a ton.

Speaker 1 You got to cross the river and you got to jump on the different rocks to get over there, but you need a story in your head of why we must cross this river. Because we're being chased.
It's so good.

Speaker 3 The other thing that happens when you're in a natural environment is that you are learning so many lessons. You're in a receptive state, not a defensive state, because it's not your parent.

Speaker 3 It's not your teacher. It is the thrill of your skin in the wind and the understanding that your survival depends on you and only you.

Speaker 3 And so you're constantly assessing your own comfort with danger and your own ability to keep yourself safe. So when you learn that with an impartial teacher like nature, you can take that.

Speaker 3 into the rest of your life and really fall back into yourself and say, I know myself to be a person who makes good decisions. I know myself to be somebody who can keep myself safe and balanced.

Speaker 3 And that feedback loop that a child gets when they decide which rocks are the safe rocks, which one isn't slippery, which one isn't too pointy.

Speaker 3 When they're quite literally getting their footing, it is feeding their body with information about how to take risks. It's very challenging to figure out how to do that today.

Speaker 3 Denmark is a great place to do that. You were just doing what the Danes do.
I mean, that's the Danish way.

Speaker 1 Oh, even better, you see, like up in Sweden and stuff, they leave their babies outside in the pram in the cold. They'll go into the store.
There's just babies lined up.

Speaker 2 And don't they have playgrounds here that are specifically to get kind of hurt? Designed so that there's

Speaker 1 all to play with and nails and real shit.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 We should raise some children in a commune. I think we're

Speaker 3 so like-minded. I mean, don't get me started talking about cell phones.

Speaker 1 Okay, so you moved to San Diego when you're nine. Why do we move to San Diego? The weather.
Okay, had enough of those winters.

Speaker 3 My parents did. I was quite happy there.
It was such a good life. But the winter that we moved, it hadn't gotten above 40 below.
So off to San Diego we went.

Speaker 1 And how did you take to San Diego? That's a big cultural shift.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was a real shock. I don't think I'd seen a freeway before.
I was surprised that everybody's house looked like everybody else's house.

Speaker 3 These big swaths of tracked housing developments built along a freeway. And you know, when when you're a kid, you don't really feel the cold.

Speaker 3 It doesn't register with you as something that you have to gird yourself for because you have so many fun things that you can do in the cold.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Now at 44, I'm like, whoa.

Speaker 1 I'm cold. I can't handle it.
I can't handle it. I've gotten cold in my old age.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's amazing how quickly you adjust to that California lifestyle.

Speaker 1 So I'm going to go by the lore. Some of this might be apocryphal, but you see the adventures of Tom Sawyer.
You see that play and you're intrigued.

Speaker 3 Yeah, we went to go see a play in my memory sort of an abandoned shopping mall and the ceiling is dripping and the folding chairs are metal and you walk through a backstage where you see these child actors in various stages of hair and makeup and playing games and braiding each other's hair and costumes.

Speaker 3 And so I saw the kind of inner workings and then we watched this play. That's interesting that you saw that first.
That's what I really love.

Speaker 1 Right, right, right, right.

Speaker 3 That's my favorite part, the behind the scenes, the people, the community, the friendships, the safe space, the chosen family. That's the stuff that I really get excited about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the combined goal, all the business that goes into it.

Speaker 3 I just remember holding on to my seat, thinking it was going to take off like I was on an airplane because I was so transported into this play that I was watching with kids my age.

Speaker 3 And they seemed like they were having so much fun and singing and dancing. And I thought, oh, I'd like to be a part part of this, whatever this thing is.

Speaker 3 And so that continued to be something that I did the whole time that I was in San Diego. Always more of a chorus girl, more like an orphan sans name, just back row tapper.

Speaker 1 Because Annie was your first thing.

Speaker 3 I think so.

Speaker 1 I was a back row orphan. I think Annie is a gateway drug.
Oh, yeah. Because my daughter's about to do it in a month.
And our other friend's kid is currently doing Annie at the same time.

Speaker 3 Songs like that, they hook into you and then you think you just should spend your whole life singing them and you would be a happy person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, did you want to be a singer?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I really wanted to sing and dance. That just looked like a whole lot of fun to me.

Speaker 1 But were you good at singing or dance?

Speaker 3 Born with just enough talent to cobble together the ability to do this, a passable voice and some workable feet, but not prodigious.

Speaker 1 You sang as Marilyn.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I have enough musicality that I can pull certain things off and also have an ear for accents.

Speaker 2 I was talking about this with a friend last night because I went to the the Beyoncé concert and this is a very, very good singer I was with.

Speaker 2 And we decided that you can kind of with training, raise yourself three degrees. If you're born as a seven, which is very high, you could get to a 10.

Speaker 2 But if you're born a three, you're not getting to a 10. Even if you work so hard, you're probably going to max out at a six or seven.
It's so true. With singing and dancing.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But do we think that could extend to some other things like comedy? I don't think you can train yourself from a three.

Speaker 2 To me, I think comedy is a more learned skill in general.

Speaker 1 Singing, right? You have some anatomy that's going to let you. Exactly.

Speaker 3 You have to have a range.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's it.

Speaker 2 Comedy, I think, if you're in the right circumstance, if you have enough trauma.

Speaker 1 See, that's the thing. I think there's an archetype of the brain that is similar to.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and your trauma could come later, so your humor could develop.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 1 It's never too late to be a great comedian.

Speaker 2 And if you're around comedy a ton, you do start infiltrating that a little bit more.

Speaker 1 You learn some tricks.

Speaker 2 You can listen to as much music as you want.

Speaker 3 You're not going to be Beyoncé. No, you're not.

Speaker 1 I need to admit something to you. I don't know that I've ever done this, but you make me really nervous.
Oh, no. Yeah.
What? I think it's a good feeling, though.

Speaker 1 It's a good kind of nervous, but I don't really get nervous and I can feel nervousness in my body.

Speaker 2 I'm kind of nervous, too. Are you?

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I was just wondering.
You're good. I just feel like.
Are you guys?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that smile really took me.

Speaker 1 It's like kind of maniacal. It's so cute and scary.

Speaker 2 That's the best combo.

Speaker 3 I've never been described like this, and I didn't know that I had the ability to unnerve anyone.

Speaker 1 Do you think maybe you were just missing it and no one told you? What was I missing? You're powerful and you make people nervous.

Speaker 1 Oh, good. I got it.

Speaker 1 Totally shutting up.

Speaker 2 I know what it is.

Speaker 1 Tell me what it is.

Speaker 2 You are very...

Speaker 2 measured and in control of yourself. It also seems clear in a beautiful way.
You're not going to go anywhere you don't want to go. You have full control.

Speaker 1 And I'm sloppy. And I'm like, I want the interplay to be right.
But yeah, I'm a sloppy mess that I somehow landed. Yeah, I'm like, we don't deserve to be doing this.

Speaker 2 Hey, Dex, I think we should stop. You know what Kristen did tell me?

Speaker 1 I said, you know, Michelle a little bit, right? And she said, yeah, I love her. We have a lot of mutual friends, which makes me feel closer to her than we actually are.

Speaker 1 But she said, she speaks very poetically. I love how she speaks.

Speaker 2 I've already gotten that.

Speaker 3 You guys, just get me on that bus.

Speaker 1 Let me show you when there's not a microphone in my face, okay?

Speaker 1 It is a couple elsewhere.

Speaker 3 I'm obsessed with your wife. She changed our life.

Speaker 1 You can include me. I wrote the essay.
Did you? Yeah, I wrote the thing that went viral. I didn't need to take credit for that.

Speaker 1 A really good version of me would have just let her have credit for that. She did more ultimately than I did.
But I wrote a thing I was so upset. I just put it on Tumblr.

Speaker 1 Okay, when Lincoln was born, there were paparazzi living on the driveway for a long time. And every time we left, we covered her with a blanket.

Speaker 1 We went to so many lengths to not let a photograph of her get taken. And we were at the Hanson South Deep Valley.
I wasn't even thinking of leaving their house.

Speaker 1 And then my mom texted me, like, oh, I'm so sorry. And it's a picture of Lincoln.

Speaker 1 And I was, I can even say now, maybe over, but I was just so fucking upset about it that I wrote this long thing and I put it on Tumblr and then somehow got picked up by the Huffington Post and all these places.

Speaker 1 And then that led to talk shows inviting us to argue with Paparazzi, which we did. And this is where she deserves all the credit, Kristen.

Speaker 1 She built a coalition of other actors basically saying, we will no longer participate in these magazines if they don't stop showing kids. It was called the no kid policy.

Speaker 1 And she got all the photo houses to commit to that, which was pretty powerful. And I do give her all the credit for that.

Speaker 3 It was incredible. I remember the day that People Magazine said that they would stop publishing photos of children.

Speaker 3 And I was like, wow, this whole structure collapsed because it had been such a problem for us for so many years and had limited our life.

Speaker 1 You had a really rough version of it.

Speaker 3 Unmanageable, unlivable. But I didn't know what to do.
I just cried and moved to a different place. Then to see these ideas that you guys were having and then this action around it.

Speaker 3 And then this change, I wrote to her at the time and I sent her a picture of Matilda smiling on the beach because before that, Matilda didn't like to have her photo taken.

Speaker 3 because that experience was taken from her and she didn't feel ownership over over her image.

Speaker 3 And so even with friends and family, that was a place where she could express a boundary and say, no, I don't want my picture taken. But when that system crumbled, she smiled for the cameras.

Speaker 1 God, that makes me happy.

Speaker 3 Nay sent that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she came in and read that to me. That was really nice of you to send.
Even forget the cameras.

Speaker 1 Just imagine you take your kids out and there's seven men in fatigues that just run in a circle around you. That's such a bizarre human experience for a little kid.
For anyone.

Speaker 1 It's kind of nuts the shit when we look back what was totally acceptable. You look at Britney's life at the apex and you're like, that's just an assault.

Speaker 3 I think that what happens is that people assume those children have other advantages. And so they aren't able to empathize with them.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just the price you have to pay. And they're right in some degree, at least saying, you chose that, right? And I would agree.

Speaker 1 You go into acting, you would have to have your head in the sand to think that if I get popular enough, I might not have to deal with that.

Speaker 1 Now, we could have another debate about whether you really need to deal with that because you want to act, but your kids didn't choose that.

Speaker 1 That's an insane proposition that the kids made the decision to be born to the parents who made the decision. That's like sins of our father stuff.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Has it really just gone away?

Speaker 1 I believe so. By the way, the added benefit for us was we're always with our kids, so we don't really deal with it at all.

Speaker 2 I also think part of what has changed is Instagram. This is maybe the positive part of Instagram.

Speaker 2 You don't need to go to the grocery store and flip through this horrible magazine to find a picture of someone's kid.

Speaker 2 A lot of people post pictures of their kids that are chosen and they're curated, so it's available.

Speaker 1 Also, you're getting a photo in their house of them smiling. You have this new access that they're in control of, so it's more interesting.
I do think that overall just kind of crippled that industry.

Speaker 1 Although there seems to be a market still for Ben Affleck and Justin Bieber. Those two seem to still be living in their children.
Prison, yes.

Speaker 2 Also, we started at the beginning of this conversation talking about the importance of kids being able to be out and free range and running around.

Speaker 2 And if they can't, because there are people taking pictures of them, that's an added layer of what they're imprisoned by, which is so unfair.

Speaker 3 Yeah, something that they shouldn't have to think about.

Speaker 1 Also, then you add in there the kid that's arriving at school with a gang. It's already hard enough to fucking go to school.
So embarrassing. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 You need to do Martin Riding Motorcycles to overcome that.

Speaker 1 That deficit you've assumed. Okay.
Now,

Speaker 1 this is a thrilling part of your story. You start acting.
You're on Baywatch as your first one.

Speaker 1 Incredible. How old were you on Baywatch?

Speaker 3 Probably 12.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 That's young for Baywatch.

Speaker 1 You were a temptress to a young man. Was that the storyline?

Speaker 3 No, I was just a girl running in a bikini

Speaker 3 on the beach and inviting him.

Speaker 1 Wait, were you really?

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. At 12?

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 Oh, no.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Times really have changed.

Speaker 3 Yes, just a girl jogging in a bikini. As we do.

Speaker 1 Normal.

Speaker 1 And then you were in Lassie and you were in step-by-step. You were in home improvement.
You were like working.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I really was. That's a three, four-year span of time.
So it was guest thing here, guest thing there, commercial here, commercial there, enough to keep going and to be sustenative.

Speaker 3 You're going out on three things a day.

Speaker 1 And you're in San Diego, so you're going to LA.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so we're going back and forth.

Speaker 1 Are you taking the train? Are you driving? Driving. Mom's driving you?

Speaker 3 Yeah, mom's driving.

Speaker 3 There's some other kids in San Diego, and there's just kind of this idea in the air that, hey, you can go to LA and you can audition for things, and then you might be in Hollywood.

Speaker 3 And there were some people who fell under that spell, and there were some minivans doing that shuttle back and forth.

Speaker 3 And you'd go to your cattle call, and then you'd go get a cookie at the mall, and you'd turn around and do your homework in the back seat by a little car light and go home.

Speaker 1 Okay, now this is the part that's really unique: you got emancipated at 15. and you had to do all of high school in nine months.
I did.

Speaker 3 When I got emancipated.

Speaker 1 And when I read that, I was like, can that be done?

Speaker 3 I know. I'll tell you what.
It really makes me feel like that skull right there.

Speaker 1 I'm like, wait, how long ago was that?

Speaker 3 Are you sure that that was this lifetime that we're talking about? Because Charlie, you can't do that anymore. It's a very strange thing because you have all these child labor laws.

Speaker 3 And when you're a child actor, you need to have a tutor. You can only work a certain number of hours.
And you need to have the guardian, like a social worker who's concerned with your safety.

Speaker 3 And if you do something called being being emancipated, you don't have to have any of those. You're an adult.
Nobody's looking after you. Nobody's teaching you.

Speaker 3 And you can work whatever you want, whatever they want. Exactly.

Speaker 1 Was this your idea?

Speaker 3 It was an idea. Other kids were doing it.
There was a movie of the week about it.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay, great. That's helpful.
It looked fun.

Speaker 3 Then it just sort of happened because I was a child. I don't fully know the ins and outs of it.

Speaker 1 I would guess you have two vastly different perspectives. One now is an adult who's been around 13-year-olds olds and 15 year olds, and then the 15 year old you who probably thought you were 26.

Speaker 3 Yeah, who couldn't really like see into the future to understand ramifications or what practical life would look like. Then now looking back and feeling, I'm just so lucky.

Speaker 1 It could have gone crazy. What age were you when you moved to Burbank?

Speaker 3 15. I was sort of bouncing around those valley apartments.

Speaker 1 Were you ever at the Oakwood? I was.

Speaker 1 Did you see the documentary about it?

Speaker 3 No, I don't think I can.

Speaker 1 Oh, I think you should. It'd probably be so PTSD friendly.

Speaker 3 I probably have some friends from the past. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more armchair experts,

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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Speaker 1 And were you living on your own at 15?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I got emancipated at 15 and a half, and then I got Dawson's Creek when I was 16.

Speaker 3 So then I was transported very quickly to Wilmington, North Carolina, which was a much safer, sounder environment to be a young person on their own.

Speaker 1 You said at one point, and I will get it wrong, but something to the effect of there's a lot of scary people or dangerous people in LA. And I met many of them during that period.

Speaker 1 Was it fucking terrifying? That sounds insane. Yeah, I think it was.

Speaker 3 And I thank God that I got that show and that it plucked me out and landed me on this sleepy southern coastal town and that I had a job to go to and a place to be responsible to and met a few people there that are still in my life that I love very much that are so much a part of me and had some kind of stability.

Speaker 1 Okay, so yeah, when you got Dawson's Creek, you got very lucky. That's kind of a little life raft at that moment.

Speaker 3 It was really great and I really wanted it and I was so excited.

Speaker 3 And you know, when you go on so many auditions and you get down to the wire on things, there's so many heartbreaks that you go through as a child actor.

Speaker 3 The things that you almost get or the things that you never hear from again, even though you wanted them so badly. Your heart endures a lot when you are a kid trying to deal with mass rejection daily.

Speaker 1 And the stress of supporting yourself in Burbank.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was weird.

Speaker 1 What was the age of the other folks? Were they a little older than you?

Speaker 3 They were legal adults, 18, 19, 20.

Speaker 1 They didn't do high school in nine months.

Speaker 3 But they did not do, let's be honest, it was correspondence school.

Speaker 1 Did you get a GED? Is that what you end up with?

Speaker 3 Internet. So I'd like for you to imagine what that might look like.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2 You wouldn't know it.

Speaker 1 We're talking to you. It's a testament to forgetting about school.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 This is not a good endorsement for school.

Speaker 3 No, no. The only thing that matters to me is against going to college.

Speaker 1 Were you a reader?

Speaker 3 I did read. I loved books.
So I had that on my side. I could always just turn to a book if I had a question about something in life.

Speaker 1 And it's expanding your vocabulary.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and I would read novels, but I would also read books about history. I mean, the gaps in my knowledge, they're everywhere.

Speaker 3 So I would go to Barnes ⁇ Noble, and not only would I get the novels that I wanted to read, but I would also get an incomplete education or a beginner's guide to world geography.

Speaker 2 We've had a few people on who have left school early and they're always the smartest people in the room because of this.

Speaker 2 They have this idea that the reason they don't know things is because of their lack of schooling. So they're making up for it.

Speaker 2 Whereas if you've gone through all this schooling, you're like, yeah, I just don't know that because I don't know it. There's no hang up about it.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 1 Yep. So that's one theory.
That's a good theory.

Speaker 1 My theory is almost similar to me going to college like i retained so much from college and other people didn't but i wasn't there because i had to be there i got to study whatever i wanted i was not trying to get a career in anything so i think if you weren't educated and then you set out to learn you want to it's not something you're forced to do it's like the decision to pursue this and that just makes all the difference in the world yeah when you really want it yeah i remember distinctly arguing a guy drunk in detroit when i was 19 and he just mopped the floor with me i didn't know what the fuck i was talking about i didn't know it was Egypt 10 years ago or was it like 900 years ago and it was 3,000 years ago.

Speaker 1 I remember just being humiliated with how little I knew in that argument and that was like a big motivator for me. I'm like, oh, I'm stupid.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And you want to be able to cross-pollinate and to be able to sit next to anybody and have a point of contact for their frames of reference.
That became clear to me.

Speaker 2 Did you have an interesting relationship with adults since you were a kid, but behaving as an adult? Did you seek the safety of other adults in your life?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think I thought I was an adult. The people that I was on the show with, they weren't not my age, but they were also a little bit older where they were like, she's 16.
Okay. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Stay away.

Speaker 3 I made some local friends, but again, they weren't my age. And I am very close with Mary Beth Peel, who played my Grams.

Speaker 3 I felt like it was an ageless relationship, but I don't know if I had met another 16-year-old who was at the local high school that I would have been like, what are you doing after school today?

Speaker 1 Right, you know? Yes, because you're going to go home and cook dinner for yourself.

Speaker 3 I'm going to go make a box of pasta

Speaker 3 and heat up some tomato sauce.

Speaker 1 Were you lonely there?

Speaker 3 I've never really felt lonely, to be honest, because I had all those early rambling experiences in nature. And so I was sort of conditioned to that.
I didn't feel lonely at all.

Speaker 1 I had a car.

Speaker 3 There were three bookstores. There was a record store.
I lived near the beach. Maybe I'm just saying that in retrospect, but it was a great place to be young.
And then Busy joined the show.

Speaker 1 I don't know how old were we?

Speaker 3 18 or something? I can't really remember, but we've been best friends ever since. So that was the end of anything that I might have experienced as loneliness.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 I love parasocially watching the two of yours relationship. It's so lovely.

Speaker 3 We're like the odd couple.

Speaker 2 It's so sweet.

Speaker 3 We're like, those two things shouldn't go together. And yet they do.

Speaker 1 And yet they do.

Speaker 2 Female friendship is so beautiful. We're talking about it more.
It will come up when we talk about your show.

Speaker 2 But seeing it out in the world is really nice for young girls because there's a lot of competition also amongst girls and it's good to see these two people are soulmates that's exactly the word that i would use it's an a storyline not a b storyline and it's enough to sustain years

Speaker 1 decades a lifetime yeah beautiful if you can find that that's what i want for any young i only have three pieces of advice for young men is get a best friend learn to dance and try to learn a few jokes and everything's going to work out

Speaker 3 i'm going to tell my boys. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, you can send them to my school. It takes about seven minutes.

Speaker 3 I'm already sending them to bus school. I thought we had an agreement.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they must know how to back up a trailer by the time they're 18. That's another skill.

Speaker 1 Okay, so during the whole Dawson's Creek experience, you clearly had your mindset on establishing yourself in projects that were tonally kind of opposite.

Speaker 3 Was there tension between the gratitude for having such a great, safe job and then also not being in the things that you were dying to be in no because there was room for both i did this movie when i was young called me without you that shot in the uk and they accommodated it in our work schedule to allow me to go back and forth to do this movie that i was dying to do it's also not like i was getting a million offers to go do other things there was enough for me but you were playing a brit in that movie i did i think that dawson's creek was even nice enough to like let me dye my hair and then wear a wig on their show.

Speaker 3 So it was allowing for a variety of experiences. And then we got that summer break because I think we shot nine months a year.

Speaker 3 And then you would have the opportunity to go do something else during the summer if something came up.

Speaker 1 The things that you did in that period, which were kill Joe, Dick, if these walls could talk, me without you. Was it hard to get cast and stuff like that, given what you were currently known for?

Speaker 1 Was that a challenge? I would say so.

Speaker 1 Because from the outside, it would appear like you're on this thing, but you know, you want a career at some point that's going to be much heavier and that you're going to have to establish yourself as quick as possible before you're just permanently in one type of role?

Speaker 1 Or was that not happening in your head?

Speaker 3 I didn't really think in the future like that necessarily. I wasn't career focused.

Speaker 3 I was just finding myself yearning for something, drawn towards it, living in all the desire for it, and then would occasionally have the opportunity to do it and be given these chances.

Speaker 3 Some of it, I think I got lucky. Like they didn't even know what Dawson's Creek was.
I did a Vim Benders movie. I couldn't believe that I'd been cast by Vim Benders.
I was like, well, this is it.

Speaker 3 I quit. I'm going to fold my cards.
This hand is too good. And then he saw a picture of me from Dawson's Creek or something.
He was like, oh, if I had known, I would not have cast it.

Speaker 1 Oh, no. Well, that's kind of the point I'm circling.

Speaker 3 So I think I probably was up against something externally, but internally, it was just a very pure yearning on my part to make contact with other kinds of work and other kinds of human experiences.

Speaker 3 So much of it is just staying in the game and staying calm and staying patient.

Speaker 1 And then there's a serendipitous and domino effect, which is me without you. A.V.
Kaufman had seen that. Is that true? Oh, I don't know.
Is that? I read that A.V.

Speaker 1 Kaufman had seen that and that was what urged her to push for you in Brokeback Mountain. Oh, wow.

Speaker 3 Then I owe somebody a thank you. I did not know that.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's true or maybe it's not true. Half the stuff I read is not true.
Oh, Station Agent. That's a big fun movie that you did in that period at Dawson.

Speaker 1 Did you fall in love with Tinkledge the way my wife did? Everybody does. There's a handful of folks, and he is definitely at the top of that list.

Speaker 3 A magnetic human being.

Speaker 1 Powerful charisma. She is head over heels.

Speaker 1 If I were to pass in a fiery crash her first phone call, I don't know if he's wet or not, but I think it would be to him.

Speaker 3 He's wedded. Yeah.
And he's childed.

Speaker 1 Oh, okay. Blended family.

Speaker 3 But like we said, friendship can be deep.

Speaker 1 When you're making brokeback, are you sensing what it is? You don't know about you, but I do some things and I thought they're going to be great.

Speaker 1 And then some things I thought were going to be bad and then they're good. I don't know that I'm a very good barometer when I'm inside of something.

Speaker 3 I still feel like that. I'm like, well, who knows? Because an ecstatic experience doesn't always relate to a great thing and a terrible experience.
Sometimes you're like, they polished that turd.

Speaker 3 It's so hard to, when you're in something, really have an idea of how it's going to be received.

Speaker 1 I would say impossible.

Speaker 3 And at that point, I hadn't really been in anything either that had enjoyed a reception. So it certainly wasn't on my mind.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you get nominated for Academy Awards. No, that was not

Speaker 3 what I was thinking.

Speaker 1 Although one thing can happen, I've never met Ang Li, but did you sense from him he had a spirit that was special and that somehow that was going to be present in the product?

Speaker 3 For sure. I mean, he's such a beautiful.
artist and has this incredible body of work and the Annie Proud story that it's based on and then the adaptation, it's undeniable material.

Speaker 3 And so, brought together under Ang Li, probably is going to be a good thing, but would anyone see it? It's about gay men, which was not really being done.

Speaker 1 We're in a post-Broke Mountain world where we take for granted that story could be successful, but prior to that, we don't have that.

Speaker 3 That was a first.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know if you're comfortable talking about Heath, but I feel obligated to say that I knew him a little bit when he was getting sober.

Speaker 1 And I don't know that I've ever fallen in love with someone so quickly.

Speaker 1 This is one of the most special boys I've ever met. And I can feel the weight of the world on him in a very special way that kind of broke my heart.
I was very, very sad.

Speaker 1 And I thought he was just so special. Special.
Yeah. So special.
Yeah. Thank God there's

Speaker 1 so special. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Thank God there's Matilda.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 What a guy. I feel very lucky that I, yeah, just got to.
There's like a handful of people I've met like that in my life where I'm just like, oh, wow, there's something.

Speaker 1 There's this heart here that's just leaking out everywhere.

Speaker 3 Yeah, an incredible sensitivity.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Great taste in motorcycles, too. He had a 2006 Sport 1000 yellow.
That's what I also drive. Yeah.
That's what you drive? Wow.

Speaker 3 Look at that.

Speaker 2 But also with Brokeback, all of you guys turned out to be huge stars. And not just stars, the best of the best as far as acting accolades.

Speaker 2 And it's fun to me that he obviously could see that in all of you and put this cast together.

Speaker 1 It wasn't an obvious cast. You now take for granted.
It feels like it was an obvious cast because you've seen the proof that everyone is brilliant, but it's not an obvious cast.

Speaker 3 It's a really beautiful way to look at it. I like that.

Speaker 1 How was the life-altering shift of you're going to be at the Academy Awards? Was that a natural transition?

Speaker 3 No, we had a baby. But I suppose maybe it's a good thing about being young is that you don't have so much life experience that you can contextualize things.
So you're really just going with the flow.

Speaker 1 Yeah, because I was going to say another theme I see present when I look at your life and its totality, and I doubt you reflect back on it in its totality, but you have had many moments where you seem to have an incredibly healthy relationship with the job.

Speaker 1 Because I think having a baby on the heels of an Academy Award nomination, most people are like, okay, get me the list of all the directors I can now work with and it's time to go.

Speaker 1 And that seems like a very healthy relationship that you were like, no, it's time to have a baby.

Speaker 3 Kids are such great life checkers. They force you to put your best self in front of them.
You can't abdicate your life and your work and your own desires, but you do have to put them.

Speaker 3 in check and figure out which master you're going to serve because the truth is if work is going well somebody else taking care of the kids and if you're in a high point with your kids, the work is shoved to the side.

Speaker 3 So you can't be equally good at them at the exact same time. And you have to allow for that give and take, but then also replenish the other things.

Speaker 3 If you have a big period of being at home, you need to go back to what you've left unattended and put some light over there.

Speaker 3 So I think it's just this constant back and forth, but making sure that you don't leave one of them until too long.

Speaker 1 This is my main thing I've taken from parenting is it right-sized all my other concerns and pursuits in a very helpful way, ironically.

Speaker 1 I kind of thought, oh, you have kids, I'll be so distracted, there'll be no time.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, no, no, actually, I will now approach the work with kind of the stakes that it deserves, which is I like to do this and maybe I'm good at it, but it's not anymore.

Speaker 1 the most important thing. And there's some liberation in that.
I think it's been helpful for me work-wise.

Speaker 3 My best day with my children is better than my best day at work. I am more thrilled with that high than I am with a work high.
So I return to that feeling.

Speaker 3 You know, when am I really, really at my happiest? And it's when I feel like things are going well with my kids. I've got them in a good place and they're feeling understood.

Speaker 1 And how about just the notion that your best day at work is you accomplish the thing you would hope to accomplish? Your best day at work isn't when someone else in a scene was their best ever.

Speaker 1 But weirdly, the joy of the kids is like they do something, right? It's not like your best day is because you were your best self.

Speaker 1 It's just they do something that's so spectacular and you feel so lucky to have witnessed it. It's kind of the opposite.

Speaker 3 I used to say to Matilda, it tastes better to me when you eat it.

Speaker 1 Oh,

Speaker 1 that's so sweet.

Speaker 3 And that's kind of the feeling that I get with them. But again, I want them to see their mom working, all of my kids.

Speaker 3 So it's not something that I want to neglect for too long, but the kids really pull at you more convincingly.

Speaker 2 Did you always know you wanted to have kids? Some women, they're five and they're like, I know I'm going to be doing this.

Speaker 3 I think I always just assumed that I would, but I wasn't a natural babysitter or have a lot of dollies.

Speaker 3 That wasn't my thing, but I just assumed, yeah, I'm going to be a mom, but I really wanted to be like a mom to a teenager. I was like, sure,

Speaker 3 a teenage girl.

Speaker 1 You wanted to go to the mall with a teenage dollar. I just wanted to do it right.

Speaker 3 I just wanted to be like in there with her and understanding her and taking her side. That's where I wanted to be.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's about the, yeah, whatever.
I could go six hours on kids.

Speaker 3 Same. Can we do like a sidebar?

Speaker 1 We should do like a kid podcast. Some of the stuff that I think gives people anxiety about having kids is my absolute favorite stuff.
Once they have some shit to get into, I'm like, let's party.

Speaker 1 I've done it all. I've fucked up in every way possible.
It's go time. It's so rewarding.

Speaker 3 I similarly learned by parenting, oh, actually,

Speaker 3 when I make mistakes in front of my daughter and own up to them and apologize, it teaches her to make mistakes and say, oopsie, mommy, I'm sorry. And it's not a big deal.
It's a part of life.

Speaker 3 And we move on.

Speaker 3 No shame, no blame, just, you made a mistake. Beautiful.
I made five already today.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to blame anyone in my parenting circle, but I could not make a mistake. Maybe it was self-imposed.
If I fucked something up, I would just lie. Obviously.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 What else is this? I know in the fact that my kids fuck shit up and then they come tell me and I'm like, oh my God, this is incredible. They're better than me.
I was hiding things I broke.

Speaker 3 That's because you thought there was a reason to hide things, something that you were afraid of.

Speaker 1 Well, again, it's not her fault, but single mom, three kids, it was fucking chaotic. I couldn't put anything on her plate.
I just did not want to be another burden in her very burdened life.

Speaker 1 So I think kind of self-imposed.

Speaker 3 But then you corrected it. Now your kids pass that on and it stops with you.

Speaker 1 At least that one part. How great.
I catch myself all the the time. Do you do this? This is last night.
I catch myself being annoying in the exact same way my mom and dad were annoying to me.

Speaker 1 I want to play, and I'm always petting their hair or I'm pulling their ear. And most of the time, they like it.
And then a lot of times they look at me and I'm like, oh my God, I know this so well.

Speaker 1 This is my dad. Like, just like, fucking watch TV.
Why do you need my attention right now? Just watch TV.

Speaker 3 But it's so hard not to fondle their little tendrils of hair on their head.

Speaker 1 Their little earlobes are so sweet.

Speaker 1 Okay, I have selfish questions. When you did Synectody, I can't pronounce it.
Synecty. Synecctody?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 2 I saw that at the Cannes Film Festival. I saw it.

Speaker 1 I was there in college.

Speaker 2 I studied abroad at the Cannes Film Festival and we snuck our way into some of the movies.

Speaker 1 Were you there? Yep. Yeah, I was there.

Speaker 1 Do you get a picture of her?

Speaker 2 Probably from very, very far away.

Speaker 1 What is Charlie Kaufman like? I never met him and I only have adaptation to work off of.

Speaker 3 I wish that I could could be the person to answer that question for you and give you the fulfillment and satisfaction but what is Charlie Kaufman like other than a artist without parallel but I can't get in there I don't know yeah okay that's a big one

Speaker 1 I want to have a dinner with him and I would be nervous too okay blue valentine I know you already talked about this a lot this 15 years old But I'm still fascinated by the notion that you guys were urged to live together for a month before filming.

Speaker 3 We took a break in the filming. We shot the first part when they're young and in love and everything's going really well.

Speaker 3 And then we took a two-week break and we lived together office hours, baby, like nine to five. Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Not cohabitating.

Speaker 3 Professional situations. So we did these improvisations during the day, honestly, to figure out ways to annoy each other.
Sure, sure.

Speaker 3 And to destroy this thing that we had made because we weren't even going to take that break, but we were having such a hard time letting go. of the thing that we loved.

Speaker 3 Derek was like, we got to mess this up and we need to burn it down. And we did a ceremonial, burned our wedding photo,

Speaker 3 and then we learned how to annoy each other.

Speaker 2 That movie is so perfect.

Speaker 1 Thanks. I mean, it is incredible.

Speaker 2 So heavy and beautiful.

Speaker 1 Were you on your own for these eight-hour improv things?

Speaker 3 Yeah, a lot of it. Derek, the director, would come in and give us a kind of scenario.
Yeah, and then we would be left to do it.

Speaker 3 And then he would say, after you've had this frustrating day, now you're going to go take your daughter to the amusement park and try and have a good time.

Speaker 1 Wow. Wow.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's fun. I don't know if anybody could work like that again because you've got a crew that's on hold.
You're paying people.

Speaker 3 I mean, it was such a small movie, so, so low budget and a small crew, but you're taking a big down period in the middle of the thing. And to what end?

Speaker 1 Playing, you know, exploring.

Speaker 3 Try and justify that to a producer. But that's what we did.

Speaker 2 You get it in the movie.

Speaker 1 That would be a big challenge for me because I just want you to like me, especially if we met two months ago.

Speaker 3 I know. It was horrible.
I don't want to give you reasons to hate me.

Speaker 1 But Those will come in a couple years.

Speaker 3 Obnoxious, yeah. We were having such a good time.
The party has to be over so soon.

Speaker 1 That's kind of heartbreaking. Yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 Was it rough that second half? Were you feeling the heartbreak of that?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I really was. And I was younger then.
It's a hard day at work for me now. I feel it and I go through it, but I definitely know that I get to go home.
I can really close the door on it.

Speaker 3 When I was younger, it would definitely seep under the door.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I could imagine coming home and feeling heartbroken or not liked, maybe. Yeah.

Speaker 2 My worst fear. Also, such a magnifying glass on your flaws.
Did you learn about your own flaws via this?

Speaker 3 I was like, you don't have to hate me. Now I hate me because it's annoying.
And we are calling forth to all of our worst qualities. And now you can't hate me more than I hate myself.
That's intense.

Speaker 1 Back to Charlie Kaufman. If I had a list, it'd be really hard, but definitely in the top for me would be eternal sunshine.

Speaker 1 Just for the scene at the end when she's like, no, but I'll annoy you and i'll do this and you'll do that and i'll hate this and he goes yeah i know and i still want to and i was like oh my god it was so heartbreaking well it's like the end of some like hot and he's like but i'm this and i'm this i'm a man

Speaker 3 and he says well nobody's perfect

Speaker 1 yeah i know because when you're young oh man you can get annoyed and then in retrospect you're like what was that well it's just that there's no one you're gonna meet who doesn't annoy you

Speaker 1 everyone is annoying when you're young michelle if you heard me and you'll hear me when we live in the bus together yes in the morning

Speaker 1 me starting this machine up sometimes i hear myself i'm pretty immune to it i'm clearing my throat and i'm coughing and sometimes i'll just be at the mirror and i'm like my family what they hear every morning from me and that they still love me is a miracle And actually, it's not, but it's with that actually, that is exactly who they love.

Speaker 3 It's inclusive of that. It's because of that.

Speaker 1 In spite of it. No, not in spite.

Speaker 3 It's because.

Speaker 2 These are the human pieces. Yeah.

Speaker 3 When you love somebody, you have to take the whole pie. And so it's a because.
So enjoy your ability and the way that they love you in that moment because they do.

Speaker 1 And they have so much fun making fun of me about it.

Speaker 3 Beauty.

Speaker 1 Okay. Now, I already learned that this is not going to be the case, but it would appear again that you're in a very popular thing and then you do a bunch of kind of smaller things.

Speaker 1 Then we go to Oz the Great and Powerful. You had not done a big-ass movie like that in a long time.
Was that seemingly abrupt?

Speaker 3 No, I was dying to do that. I had an eight-year-old daughter and I was going to play Glinda the Good Witch.
I've cooked up a real steak for us on this one, darling.

Speaker 3 Wait till you come to mommy's job and you go to the costume department and then we put some rhinestones on your face.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 3 there's a flying monkey. This is going to be so fun.

Speaker 1 And we had the best time.

Speaker 3 We lived in Detroit and she went to school there.

Speaker 1 Where? What town?

Speaker 3 We were in Birmingham and she went to Roper.

Speaker 2 You know about Roper?

Speaker 1 You've heard this story. In fifth grade, a teacher said, he's not dumb.
He's really, really smart. There's this school, Roper, that could tend to his needs.
You have to take an IQ test to get in.

Speaker 1 I got in. My dad said, no fucking way is he going to school with eggheads.
And he pulled the plug on that. So I didn't go, but Roper is the thing I always wanted to go to.

Speaker 3 Should have been you.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Was it special? It's a great school.

Speaker 3 Boy, oh boy. I thought, well, maybe we should just live in Detroit.

Speaker 1 We're very happy here.

Speaker 3 We still have friends from that time, people that we're still in touch with. We lived in a neighborhood.
We lived in a house. We had a community.
I had friends. She had friends.

Speaker 3 And I was a fairy princess every day.

Speaker 1 So it was great.

Speaker 3 And it was directed by the wonderful Sam Raimi, who gave Matilda. the best experience.

Speaker 3 He would let her call action and she would sit in the director's chair and she would come and he would say, there is my most honored guest, Matilda. Make way, everyone.

Speaker 3 I'm always impressed when people are in circumstances where they have so much going on.

Speaker 3 They see an opportunity for somebody who needs a little extra and they go to it, even though they have their hands full. And he did that day in, day out.

Speaker 1 Do you do any lake business? Do you get on the lakes at all? Michigan lake life.

Speaker 3 Yes, we did.

Speaker 1 Isn't it Eden?

Speaker 3 Are we living the wrong life?

Speaker 2 Dax is adjusting.

Speaker 1 We're finishing a house right now on a lake in Nashville. Lake life.
Just got our first pontoon boat.

Speaker 3 Man, you guys really figured it out, didn't you?

Speaker 1 I don't want to make you jealous. You can sign my way.

Speaker 3 I signed up in Boston. I'm jealous.

Speaker 1 That bus is driving to the lake house in June. How long does that take?

Speaker 1 Well, we got to stop in Idaho for two days. We sleep in the Walmart parking lot in the bus.
I'm so

Speaker 1 happy for you and jealous for me. Okay.
You're invited.

Speaker 3 I can't even tell you how into this I am.

Speaker 3 I once, for Thanksgiving, rented an an RV in Nevada, drove with Matilda to spend Thanksgiving at the animal shelter where you could sleep with a variety of animals in your room.

Speaker 1 Oh, my goodness. Pigs.
Oh.

Speaker 3 Yes, we did. Dogs.
Yes, we did. Cats.
You could have animal sleepovers.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 So we did an animal sleepover, animal sanctuary Thanksgiving. And then we went to Zion.

Speaker 3 in our RV. Have you done that park?

Speaker 1 Not in the RV, but yes, I've been to Zion.

Speaker 3 What a place. But I thought I had done enough by renting an RV.
I was like,

Speaker 1 look at me. I'm driving an RV.

Speaker 3 No, you need to check clearances. You have to check park entrance and exit times.
I hadn't really masterminded the situation and then found corkscrewing down to the bottom of Zion.

Speaker 3 And our RV wasn't allowed to pass back up for our sunset horseback ride because of a height requirement.

Speaker 1 I was like, no,

Speaker 1 this isn't happening.

Speaker 3 Oh, no. I have taken on more than I should have, but I want to get back into the RV life, but I'm a little.

Speaker 1 But Michelle, it's exactly back to being a kid and crossing the stream because numerous times we are in that bus and I'm getting into a tighter and tighter and tighter situation.

Speaker 1 And I'll say out loud, I don't know, guys, we may be backing down this mountain in that thrill of will we get through. It's exhilarating.

Speaker 3 That was me. I love that life.
I want that life. And just as a little sidebar, tidbit, I think you'll appreciate it.
In COVID, we had had a baby.

Speaker 3 And because of COVID, my mother hadn't been able to meet the baby. And she decided she was fed up with that.

Speaker 3 And they had a little boat and they sold their little boat. And instead, they bought a camper, attached it to their pickup, and they drove from Seattle, Washington to upstate New York.

Speaker 3 so that they could meet the baby. Oh.
Deep COVID. She had packed the freezer with enough food to last for a week, didn't enter a grocery store, a rest stop, anything.
RV lifed all the way.

Speaker 3 I know. It's in my blood.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You come by it honest.

Speaker 1 Okay. After the Oz and Powerful, you do two Broadway shows.
You won a Tony for Blackbird.

Speaker 3 Just nominated.

Speaker 1 You were just nominated. Yeah, I'm sorry to correct that.

Speaker 3 No, you won.

Speaker 1 Thank you. Maybe it's a premonition.

Speaker 2 Maybe it's coming up.

Speaker 1 You love that. The schedule for me seems very scary.

Speaker 3 It's a terrible schedule. But when your children grow up and and they aren't as able to drop into the Roper school for half a year and they really need to put roots down, you realize.

Speaker 3 oh, like I'm a plane that's been grounded. We have to give her a sense of permanence and structure dependability.
So I need to work from home. And it looks like that Broadway is not going anywhere.

Speaker 3 So is this something that I can learn in enough time to figure out how to do it and make it a part of my life so that I can have the opportunity to work from home?

Speaker 1 That's what drove that decision. And then you were great at that fucking asshole.

Speaker 2 Well, yeah, do you think, okay, earlier, just four minutes ago, you said you'd bit off more than you could chew with the RV. Is that a motto?

Speaker 3 Yes, that's me.

Speaker 2 I'm feeling this as a through line. You just take on a lot.

Speaker 3 That's how I like to do things, figure it out while I'm plummeting, which I honestly really do relate to that childhood in nature.

Speaker 3 I really see a direct correlation from that kind of risk-taking to the kind of risk-taking that I enjoy in my work.

Speaker 3 Because in my life, I'm not like a thrill person or a roller coaster person or highs kind of person, but I enjoy it in my work. And I think it's because I learned it as a child.

Speaker 1 Is your hack to just commit to it before you actually think you can do it?

Speaker 3 Some things I look at, I'm like, I have no idea. There's no spark.
The rest of the time, there's a tiny little spark and then a big cloud around it.

Speaker 3 But it's the spark that I stay connected to, and that's what makes me say, I'll try. But there has to be just this teeny, tiny little mustard seed.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 if you dare.

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Speaker 1 This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. So many of us are really impacted by the colder seasons when it gets dark so much earlier and the days feel shorter than ever.

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Speaker 1 Okay, now my favorite thing you ever did was Manchester by the Sea.

Speaker 1 You like to suffer. That's all I can conclude.
It's like, you're like, it's been a minute since I suffered.

Speaker 3 No, no, you're skimming over dick and lots of fun things in there. Lots of laughs.

Speaker 1 Boy, that movie. Have you already figured out how to not let things seep in at that point?

Speaker 3 That was harder.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you guys are both so fucking heartbreaking and good in that movie. Okay.
Fossey, Verdant, Incredible, one an Emmy, and a Golden Globe.

Speaker 3 Well done. I feel like this is In Memoriam or something.
I'm like, have I come to the end of the

Speaker 1 do you want to hear the funniest two-minute story about the In Memoriam? I've only been to the Oscars one time. We went long ago and I directed a car chase movie with Kristen for a million dollars.

Speaker 1 Very few people saw. And I worship Brad Pitt, would do anything to make out with him.
And I've gone out to go to the bathroom and I'm coming back and I've never met Brad at that point.

Speaker 1 I've come up my aisle and I'm walking towards my seat. And as I'm getting close to Kristen, she goes, he's talking to you.
I go, what? She goes, Brad Pitt is talking to you.

Speaker 1 And I turn around and he's like three rows ahead. He's standing and he says, we loved your movie.
At that moment, I kind of forget I've even made a movie and I go, what movie?

Speaker 1 And he goes, hit and run. We love hit and run.
I can't believe this is happening. I sit down.
Kristen's like, oh my God, are you so? I go, I can't. I'm smiling so big.

Speaker 1 And they immediately start the immemorium.

Speaker 1 I can't stop smiling. I'm the happiest I've been since I got into this business.
And Kristen looks at me. She goes, stop.
Like, I'm so happy everyone died.

Speaker 3 Oh, they cut to you.

Speaker 1 Yes. They could have ended my life if they just cut to me.
I am glowing in that moment. And it's all the people are dying.
And I'm so happy.

Speaker 1 That's amazing.

Speaker 3 Thank you for that.

Speaker 1 I can't wait to see the movie. It's like, what's wrong with him? You got to get the B-roll from that fucking award show.
I would kill for that footage. It's just me so fucking happy.

Speaker 3 I can see it now.

Speaker 1 Okay. So again, now here's another moment where it appears that you have a really, really impossibly healthy healthy relationship, which is you take a two and a half year break after Fabelmans.

Speaker 3 Had another baby. That definitely imposes.

Speaker 1 Do you love being pregnant?

Speaker 3 I'm very lucky. I have totally manageable pregnancies.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Kristen loves it.

Speaker 3 You're going to have another baby?

Speaker 1 I have a vasectomy. If we have one, it won't be mine, but I'll raise it with love and understanding.

Speaker 3 I know you would on the bus.

Speaker 3 I have in the past taken off pretty big chunks of time because when you work 15 hours a day for six months on something, you really need to slow down and recharge and reestablish your your routines and your life.

Speaker 3 And then in there, there was COVID and two strikes.

Speaker 1 You picked a good time. There was a whole host of things.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I was really thrilled when we had a baby in COVID. That really livened things up.

Speaker 1 I was like, welcome to the quarantine.

Speaker 1 Snuck you in. So, you know, we're not always home all day long, but currently we are.

Speaker 3 For the next year and a half, you're going to think life works like this.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Do you have the tension? I know Kristen does a bit.
I know a lot of working moms do, where it's like, when you're working a lot, you have some guilt about parenting.

Speaker 1 And then when you're parenting a lot, you have some guilt about not working.

Speaker 3 I'm starting a job on Sunday and it hurts. I don't know that I would call it guilt necessarily.

Speaker 3 It hurts me and it feels biologically incorrect that I am going to spend this certain amount of time away from my children. But it feels like the correct model to give them.

Speaker 3 So it hurts my heart, but my head, I think, understands it.

Speaker 3 Then when I'm with them, I just try to let them feel my full presence so that when I'm not with them, I can really extract and go do the work that I need to do in the way that I need to do it.

Speaker 3 It's like a back and forth. It's not how I would like to live.
I'm very creature of habit. It's hard for me to jump in and out all the time, but that's...

Speaker 3 what I tell myself is how to just kind of manage my feelings around it.

Speaker 1 That sounds like a very good framing of it, which is it's fine to hurt,

Speaker 1 but the guilt and the judgment's not part of it. That's kind of how guys have gotten it for a long time, which is no guy feels guilty that he's going to work.

Speaker 1 Societally, he's never been asked to feel guilty about that. He should feel proud of that.
But you feel sad that you're not with your kids.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it does a few things. For a long time as a single mother, that was how I supported us.
So of course, it's in total, utter necessity. It is how our life runs.

Speaker 3 And now

Speaker 3 being in a marriage, I contribute to my family and to mainly the desires and needs and what I want to put in front of my children.

Speaker 3 But I also am leaving a record of who I am and who I was and the things that I was interested in. Because, you know, when you're a kid, you look at your parents and you're like, you're my mom.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You don't have any desires or passions or dreams.

Speaker 2 You were born to be my mom and that's it.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And I throw a plate on the floor and you deal with it.

Speaker 1 You kind of do it.

Speaker 3 So I've often thought about work as a way to leave a record for my children. Should they want to pick it up about who I was in my entirety?

Speaker 3 Mothering is a large piece of the pie, but there are other aspects. What if we don't have enough time to get to know each other more completely?

Speaker 3 If you want to pick up some artifacts along the way, these parts were also me.

Speaker 2 I was just listening to Malcolm Gladwell talking about this, but he might have been referencing someone else.

Speaker 2 He was talking about the passing of his father, and he said, I know him better now than I I did when he was alive,

Speaker 2 which is such a beautiful thing that you can keep knowing these people in ways you could never have known them when they were your mom or dad.

Speaker 3 This is why I save my journals and all my stuff and just think you might not be curious about it at all, right? You might be like, Yeah, no, I had enough of her.

Speaker 1 I think of that all the time because I've journaled every single day for the last almost 21 years as a sobriety commitment.

Speaker 1 Often I'm journaling and I'm not editing for them, and then I think they will one day have all these and they can read all them. And then I go,

Speaker 1 open one of them up like that. I don't know.
I think they will.

Speaker 2 I would.

Speaker 1 I'd like to read what my dad was feeling like at my exact age. I would.
Yeah. Okay.
Dying for sex. In this two and a half year break, this got to you.
Was it a spec at that time or was already set up?

Speaker 3 Was it podcast? And then Liz Merriweather had written one script. So there was just a pilot episode and the podcast and the one-two punch of them.
I was like, oh, there's the spark and the cloud.

Speaker 3 And now I have to go figure this thing out. But then I got pregnant again.
And so it put it on a hiatus.

Speaker 3 And then after I was through postpartum and breastfeeding fog and all that stuff, I picked up the phone. I was like, did they ever make that show I really wanted to do? Who did that?

Speaker 3 And they said, no one. And I was like, oh, great.
Then Liz and I picked up our conversation again and never stopped.

Speaker 1 I did a show for her for two years. She's a Michigander.
Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah.
What a sense of humor.

Speaker 3 My God.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 It is unstoppable.

Speaker 3 Even at times where it may or may not be.

Speaker 1 It's rare you're afraid a woman will get canceled. Let's just say that.

Speaker 1 I think that's the best way I can euphemistically say it's very rare to be afraid a woman and I'm like, oh, you old, you're okay.

Speaker 3 I'm going to go back to Brooklyn and give her that warning.

Speaker 1 You had a lot of brave roles, but this one, there's so much sex in it. There's so much sexuality.

Speaker 1 And forget the sexuality. I can hook up with people.
That's fine. So much masturbation.

Speaker 3 So much.

Speaker 1 We were just discussing this on a different episode where I was like, as liberated as I am sexually, when I've been caught jerking off, not hiding the fact that I jerk off, but getting caught is really humiliating.

Speaker 3 Well, even that you're using the word caught, you know,

Speaker 1 exactly. Yeah, if someone walks in and you're doing it, I'm humiliated.

Speaker 1 So for me, singing and masturbating on camera would be rough.

Speaker 3 I'm going to write you a part where you get to do both

Speaker 1 at the same time. Coming around the mountains when she comes.
Oh, God.

Speaker 1 Oh, look, I did it.

Speaker 1 I got to do the comedic.

Speaker 2 Oh, you're so brave.

Speaker 1 Did that stuff spook you, or do you commit to it? And then you're like, I'll just come to terms with that when we start shooting? Or what was that?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I actually think that's a pretty good way to put it. I'm not going to let small fears get in my way because I want the totality of it.
And if there are...

Speaker 3 Some things along the way that make me a little bit uncomfortable, I'm going to figure out a way through them.

Speaker 2 It's kind of the theme of the show.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so your character has previously had cancer, went into remission, and in the pilot, we learn that your cancer's back. And in fact, it's metastasized and you have stage four.

Speaker 1 Now, this is one of the heartbreaking parts of the show. I love Jay Duplas.

Speaker 3 He's the best.

Speaker 1 He's such a wonderful, wonderful guy. I hated to have to see him be a very annoying husband who I'm rooting for you to leave.

Speaker 3 And he's weirdly so good at it. Even though he's the most menshy, wonderful human, he has really studied the other side and come back to stick it to them in the form of this character.

Speaker 3 You're like, oh, the good guy, you know, the good husband who really is actually just afraid of your inherent feminine power and ideas and intelligence, but has somehow managed to get along under the guise of good guy.

Speaker 3 There are so many scenarios in the show and so many different sexual encounters and positions that I've never found myself in working on a TV show before.

Speaker 3 And so my memories of it are so strong because humor is such a grounding force for a memory. You don't want to remember the thing that's so sad.

Speaker 3 You want to remember the thing that has humor attached to it. And my recall for certain pieces of work can be so spotty.

Speaker 3 And this, I can bring it all back in my mind because I was like, oh, that was that wonderful actor that I peed on.

Speaker 1 I'll never, ever, ever forget him.

Speaker 3 It's so indelible because because they are all first-hand experiences and they're all with the baseline of Liz's dangerous sense of humor. That's what I love.

Speaker 1 It feels very dangerous, which is my favorite humor.

Speaker 3 I really have to tell Liz to watch out for herself because

Speaker 3 she's got like a whip on her pen or something.

Speaker 1 So, your character has also not been intimate with her husband for two years, I think. We learn in the show, maybe even three.

Speaker 3 She's gone through a diagnosis and breast reconstruction and a huge medical process, and she desires

Speaker 3 connection and pleasure and satisfaction, even with her husband. And he's no longer able to see her as a sexual being.
She's a patient for him.

Speaker 1 And even worse, maybe like a Moonshauseny, a source of confirming his identity as the good guy.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the caretaker. And then she gets a terminal diagnosis in the midst of all of this, which is just a lightning bolt.

Speaker 3 And she cleaves her life down the center and splinters it off and gets in this little boat and off she goes and she grabs her best friend and she's like, we're moving away from here and we're going to go into uncharted territory and let's do it together.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm not going to die alone, but I'm going to die with my best friend, Nikki.

Speaker 3 It's a podcast.

Speaker 1 Did you listen to this again?

Speaker 3 I listened to the podcast twice and it just unraveled me. I was so overwhelmed with emotion, which is kind of an unusual experience.

Speaker 1 I don't want to cry.

Speaker 3 I don't really want to feel you're satiated in that department. Yeah, a little work-wise, personal.
I can take it on, but I can more deal with it in my head or abstract suffering.

Speaker 3 That is something that now gets processed through my brain instead of my heart. And this showed was like an arrow in me.

Speaker 3 And I couldn't understand how it had bypassed all these defenses that I thought I had put up, gotten behind the wall.

Speaker 3 I think it was her bravery to live her death as she lived her life, which is to make it her own and to really open it up and look at death and look at how to stay creative inside of it, how to not become a fixed identity identity cancer patient once something so catastrophic happens to you, to fight for other aspects to stay in that room, to be a whole person.

Speaker 1 You had to have another storyline going other than dying.

Speaker 3 Yes, even though you know that it's happening, which is really the storyline of all of our lives. Like the storyline of our life is dying.

Speaker 3 It's just a timeline issue, but we are able to kind of protect ourselves from it and pretend that it's far enough away that we don't need to deal with it or really even know what it is, what happens, what it looks like, what it feels like, and how you can be in charge of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. How did it work? I stopped working in the era of intimacy coordinators.
This one probably

Speaker 1 wants. It's why you didn't want

Speaker 1 somebody telling you what you couldn't do. Hold on.
I'm out.

Speaker 1 Had you worked with them before?

Speaker 3 No, I'd always just put on two pairs of pantyhose. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Sure, sure, sure.

Speaker 1 I always just gave that famous Jack Nicholson line. I'm sure you've heard it.
Sorry if I get erect and sorry if I don't.

Speaker 1 Oh god.

Speaker 1 Neither is good. Oh my god.

Speaker 1 70s. Wow.
Yeah, right. I couldn't imagine if that was said to you.

Speaker 2 Really no response to that.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, no.

Speaker 3 No, the times they are changing.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I really enjoyed it. I wasn't sure how I was going to feel because I definitely don't like to be told what to do.
I like to do my own thing. I just don't like things in my way.

Speaker 3 I like to have my space.

Speaker 3 And it truly was much more like the experience experience of having a choreographer who's really helping you and not school marming you, who's really helping you to create a convincing simulation of something.

Speaker 3 Also, to make sure, you know, if you get into this business, there's probably something wrong with you. I mean, it's the circus.

Speaker 3 You don't run away and join the circus if you're not running away from something. So, I think that that means that performers bring with them a rich personal history.
And I applaud this

Speaker 3 move forward. Maybe you don't need an intimacy coordinator, but you don't know what your co-star has been through.
You don't know what your scene partner is dealing with.

Speaker 3 And this allows them the safety and dignity of being able to just tell one person what they can and cannot do and keep their job. So I'm all for it.

Speaker 1 That part's fantastic. I guess what scares me is you're already trying to do something that can't be choreographed.

Speaker 1 in life and you're trying to do it in this really crazy situation which there's cameras there's 15 people in the room.

Speaker 1 So already for me, I'm fighting against the mechanization of this thing you're hoping to capture. I agree with everything you're saying.
And I hope that I've always been really responsible and kind.

Speaker 1 And I've always just chatted with people beforehand, but I just fear this layer of, okay, now this whole thing has already been talked about, decided. How on earth will this look natural and fluid?

Speaker 3 I think, though, it can be adjusted and it can change, but there's one person who knows the safe word. Like you might go to the intimacy coordinator and say, I want to fuck.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 you might go to the intimacy coordinator and say that.

Speaker 3 But, you know, you might say, nothing's off limits for me. I am completely comfortable and I have nothing that you need to know about.
And so there's no workaround there.

Speaker 3 They're not like, well, you're not allowed to do that.

Speaker 3 It's just like if somebody else has boundaries, something that they don't want to show, something they don't want to touch, the intimacy coordinator protects that without it being obvious to the rest of the crew.

Speaker 3 Nope, so-and-so just won't do that. They have a personal history.
But the truly great thing about it, though, is because you are simulating something, you have to sell it for that lens.

Speaker 3 I might be doing what I think, but it's not translating because of where the camera is. So it's not selling that this thing is actually happening.

Speaker 3 And one of the things I thought was so valuable with Intimacy Coordinator is she could help you sell it. to a friend.
Jay and I both know that I'm giving him a blowjob. We're fine with that.

Speaker 3 And we know what that might look like and what that might ask each of us to do, but we don't know how to simulate a blowjob.

Speaker 1 Totally.

Speaker 3 How do do you not make it look like you're bobbing for apples? Yeah. How do you create the proper tension? And now, this is a job that's been around for a while.

Speaker 3 When intimacy coordinators first came on the scene, you're like, you were a PA yesterday. Like, what do you say you're the intimacy coordinator?

Speaker 1 It's like the COVID officers, too. You're a COVID safety officer based on what? Because you had the PRL.

Speaker 1 Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 So they were these kind of made-up jobs to meet a moment. But now these jobs have become really fulfilled and filled by skilled, qualified people.

Speaker 1 And we really relied on her expertise it's incredible i'm blown away with your performance i want to tell you one it's not an intimacy coordinator but it's one sex scene story of mine i was doing something where it got to the point where the lawyer's talking about what can be shown i'm not shy at all my deepest insecurity though is that anyone would see my butthole I don't want anyone to see my butthole and I'll show you everything else.

Speaker 1 Zero self-consciousness. And I get into the scene.
We're walking. Okay, you're going to be on top of her.
And I go, and where's the camera?

Speaker 1 And I see it's on the floor looking up at the bed and I'm on top and it's going to see my feet first. And I'm like, they're definitely going to see my asshole.
I know cameras work.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, oh my God, they're going to see my asshole. We do a take.
It's a long take. And then I lay down for a take too.
I'm certain the whole crew just saw my butthole.

Speaker 1 And the director comes in and he takes the sheet and he moves it up just to cover my asshole. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 okay, that's confirmation. The entire gang just saw my butthole.

Speaker 2 See, the intimacy coordinator would have known.

Speaker 1 I might have been like, hold on.

Speaker 2 I think we might just need to bring the camera up just a bit.

Speaker 3 It's so hard to, because you know that that monitor is going out. There's taps all over.

Speaker 1 There's dailies. Some editors like

Speaker 1 the studio. We have butthole here.
You caught. Okay.
But I just felt these sheep people.

Speaker 1 Oh my God.

Speaker 3 Confirmation of your worst fear.

Speaker 1 Truly, I've learned throughout my life. I've been delusionally unaware that I'm 6'2 ⁇ , that I'm white, that I'm all these things.
And so when the crew sees my butthole, I'm not in danger.

Speaker 1 There's nothing to be that afraid of for me. And so it is a completely different dynamic.

Speaker 1 Like I can laugh about that, but it's a different scenario that for years I didn't really even take time to consider.

Speaker 3 Now, I always say, like, the worst thing that can happen to you on a set is that you're going to be embarrassed. Embarrassment, we can live with that.

Speaker 3 The stakes aren't as high as they are in real life.

Speaker 3 Look, the stakes are high because you want to do a good job and you you want to get another job and you want to continue to have a livelihood, but embarrassment we can live with.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The last thing I want to say about the sexuality in the show is what occurred to me midway through was,

Speaker 1 oh, this is distinctly female. I've grown up watching tons of different sex scenes in different movies, and they have almost been exclusively written by men or directed by men.

Speaker 1 And there was something very unique and tangible about this whole journey that felt definitively female.

Speaker 3 Thank you. That's what we were going for.
We were like, is there such a thing? Because the camera is the male gaze. And is it even possible to make a camera a female gaze?

Speaker 3 So that was definitely something that was on our mind while we were making the show.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you accomplished it. It's a completely different version of this tale than I've ever seen.
That was the defining thing is that it was clearly all women making this.

Speaker 3 And the defining dangerous genius of Liz Meriwether. Because, you know, when you're making a show like this, the scripts keep coming.
You sign sign on to a show, but you don't have all eight episodes.

Speaker 3 You don't know what the heck's going to happen. You've got one episode and you're kind of crossing your fingers.
She just hits them out of the park. Script after script.
We're shooting.

Speaker 3 She's showrunning and writing and editing all these things that go into the title showrunner and then delivering these scripts.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
Unbelievable. It's crazy.
To me, where the comedy is is this intersection between your fantasy and reality. I feel like that's constantly explored.

Speaker 1 One after another, you have an idea of what's going to be great. And then where the the rubber meets the road, there's just so much comedy.

Speaker 3 I've thought about what is gallows humor. It's not really laughing at something or making a joke because something is sad.
The humor is ever-present.

Speaker 3 It's just the ability and the desire to locate it, to say, I want to attach laughter to this experience. Because you could just look through the whole thing darkly.

Speaker 3 You could just say, oh, this didn't go the way I wanted it to. This didn't go the way I wanted it to.
And I'm dying of cancer.

Speaker 3 And the real life Molly in the podcast, she has this totally innocent bemusement about the the situations that she would find herself in and also a complete lack of judgment about what people wanted to do and what their bodies craved and how she was a part of that and how it made her own body feel.

Speaker 3 She was this observer.

Speaker 1 Like an anthropologist.

Speaker 3 And also, I don't want to use the word angel because she's like a very real person, but she was looking for the best version of things and sitting.

Speaker 3 in a neutral space about bodies, even when she's talking about her cancer treatments and what's happening to her body and how her body is failing and all of the secretions that a body can make and that they're happening in tandem.

Speaker 3 And sickness is something that is being done to your body and your body is acting against your own will. And that sexuality is something where you can have strong ideas.

Speaker 3 You can sort of both be in control and out of control, influenced by the other person and then learning more about yourself in the process of it.

Speaker 3 And that these two kind of bodily experiences, both full of feeling and surprises and smells, she found a way to hold both experiences right until the very end.

Speaker 3 She was in hospice and she was still looking for ways to appreciate and love her own body. She really loved putting on like beautiful lingerie.

Speaker 3 She would take a picture and she would send a sexy selfie and some guy would be like, oh, that was amazing. Thank you.
She refused to deny herself any pleasure in the midst of all this pain.

Speaker 1 I don't know if this is intentional or this is just what my projection is.

Speaker 1 It seems that she entered the experience with the curiosity of a novel experience, which is like what I would hope I could accomplish in that time. Let's explore this new thing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, because how do you know what you want until you try it? If you've been conditioned to believe that a certain kind of sexuality is acceptable, okay, normal, how do you even know what's out there?

Speaker 3 And how do you know if you like it or don't like it or if it's for you?

Speaker 2 What's inherently bad or good about a specific sexual activity? People are like, that's bad or kinky or that's in this bucket, but what makes that bucket that bucket?

Speaker 3 Patriarchy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 But things that we've inherited make that bucket that bucket.

Speaker 3 I hope that the generational turnover is going to drain that bucket into the bucket of, first of all, normal, acceptable, great, pleasurable, and also personal. Yes.
It belongs to you.

Speaker 3 I remember I asked Nikki, I was like, what did people say when Molly found out that she had stage four and she was dying and then told everybody that she was going on this sexual journey?

Speaker 3 Did that open her up to any judgment? Were people like, oh my God, you're never going to believe what Molly is doing? She's like, nobody did. And I was like, that's great.

Speaker 3 Well, she's got amazing friends then because

Speaker 3 there wasn't chatter about it, but I think we're worried what people would think or what people would say.

Speaker 1 Or there's some notion of what you're supposed to do with the end of your life.

Speaker 3 Yes, the right way way to do it. Her refusal of that and also her desire to control it, to know what it was and to say when enough was enough.

Speaker 3 Childbirth and death are like these portals, but they're so medicalized, but that in each experience, you have the ability to say, I've experienced enough pain and my body is done with that aspect of this.

Speaker 3 But to know the timelines of things, we know, oh, when your water breaks, you'll probably go into labor in 36 hours, but death just isn't a part of our conversation.

Speaker 3 We don't know the bodily function of it and we don't see it.

Speaker 1 For me, me, that was the greatest source of anxiety both with my dad and my stepdad, which is what's the timeline? You're trying to prep yourself for how long is this experience? How often do I visit?

Speaker 1 That unknown is so powerful. It almost overrides the actual thing itself.
My dad was a blessing because it was small cell carcinoma. So it's like, he'll be dead in three months.
Do it all.

Speaker 1 That was great in retrospect. My stepdad was like two and a half, three years of prostate cancer.
So it's like, when do you plan the trip? When is it too late for this?

Speaker 1 It's really hard to come up with that game plan when you actually don't know what amount of time you're dealing with.

Speaker 3 Right. And also the hope that, what if there's more? And the treatment cycles that a person has to go through.
I haven't been with somebody at the end of their life.

Speaker 3 That's not something that I know intimately, but I know that the information

Speaker 3 is so powerful to have hospice care.

Speaker 3 You can have a death doula in the same way that you used to have a birth doula, but somebody who really supports you and walks you through and helps you do it on your own terms and it helps you understand end-of-life care.

Speaker 3 I know somebody actually who switched from being a birth doula to being a death doula. That place is so information-rich.

Speaker 3 There's so much encoded stuff about really how to live and to be witness and to

Speaker 3 give that person the experience that they want in their body.

Speaker 1 I think we are starting to look at it correctly. There seems to be a movement like Atul Gawande, where it's like, don't just look for longevity.

Speaker 1 The goal shouldn't necessarily be 11 months instead of nine months. It should be, what do we want to do?

Speaker 1 That's like a bigger question and maybe more important than are we going to try to get 11 or not? Squeeze every day out that we can. Measure it a little differently or evaluate it differently.

Speaker 2 Also, the irony of we're so obsessed with the timeline of death. We don't know about any of us.
We can just go through life as if, well, that's far away, but our timeline could be any minute.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Well, it's great.
I just want to call out one scene that's incredible when you talk about this dark and dangerous sense of humor.

Speaker 1 The fact that you break your leg kicking Rob Delaney in the dick, what a swing. Good job.

Speaker 3 What a swing is right.

Speaker 3 I had a very small target to hit.

Speaker 1 You're expecting one hilarious moment and then this other thing happens. You're like, holy fuck, this is a train wreck.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they were like, no, no, it's safe. He's wearing a cup.
Just swing as hard as you can and just hit the cup. I was like, you really trust me to do this?

Speaker 1 Again, back to the poking someone in the eyes. It's hard enough to just kick and make sure you hit that.

Speaker 3 And then act at the same time. I was like, okay, it's just going to be like hitting a mark.

Speaker 1 And then Jenny's fucking great. Jenny Slade is so great in it as Nikki.
It's fantastic. I hope everyone watches it.
This has been a delight. You're invited on a bus ride whenever you'd like.

Speaker 1 You could even follow behind in a smaller motorhome and you're like, well, fuck, if he's going to make it, I'll make it in this size one.

Speaker 3 We have a minivan, which I pretend is a motorhome. I treat it like a motorhome.
We've got survival. Yeah, we've got all the like snacks.
Yeah, we got all the stuff. It's my starter motorhome.

Speaker 1 Yeah, your escape pod.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it really is. Damn, I just want to be on that bus.

Speaker 3 Do you ever podcast from the bus?

Speaker 1 Do you ever go like on the road? I do fact checks from it. I'll probably do some this summer.

Speaker 3 You figured it all out.

Speaker 1 But you're a delight, most powerful smile in real life.

Speaker 2 We've been wanting to have you on for years and years and years, so we feel very lucky.

Speaker 1 And thanks for trusting us. I know this isn't necessarily your cup of tea.
It feels flattering. Yeah, it feels like a gift you gave us.

Speaker 3 You guys.

Speaker 1 Still, still.

Speaker 3 I hope I have lived up to the seat on the couch. Can I do a podcast where I interview you guys? Because it's so weird to have so much attention on oneself and your whole life.

Speaker 3 You don't take a trip down memory road and look at your life very often. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's not a good thing to do, really. A little indulgence.

Speaker 2 So you can come here and get it out.

Speaker 3 Next one, I'm going to make you guys walk through. I want to open up your roads.

Speaker 1 Anytime. All right.
Adore you. Good luck with everything.
Thanks for coming.

Speaker 3 Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong.

Speaker 2 Do you smell something? No.

Speaker 1 Why do you think the apartment smells?

Speaker 1 What's happening differently here?

Speaker 2 Oh,

Speaker 2 interesting.

Speaker 2 What do you think it is? There is something different.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Do you like it? Yeah, you look great.
But I don't know if you just like, you were at a film, you were at a photo shoot beforehand. Oh, no.

Speaker 2 Good job, Rob. Got it.
What did he say? Eye makeup.

Speaker 1 Is that what it is? It's the lower eyeshadow.

Speaker 2 I'm wearing an eyeliner.

Speaker 1 This is a dingles.

Speaker 2 Really good job, Rob.

Speaker 1 I was looking specifically at the darkness there and wondering, is that all that's happening? Okay.

Speaker 1 But major dingles, because last night I hosted

Speaker 1 Charlie and I tried to do old movie night for his kids and my kids. And then Charlie's so much younger than me.
He hasn't seen a lot of classics.

Speaker 2 Sure.

Speaker 1 He hasn't seen Raiders of the Lost Arc. Okay.
Neither have I.

Speaker 1 Last night was Pirates of the Caribbean, the original. We were watching it and Captain Jack Sparrow is so fantastic in it.

Speaker 1 And he looks so sexy with

Speaker 1 eyeliner.

Speaker 1 It's more than that. It's like smudged all the way down.

Speaker 1 And I said out loud to Charlie, I'm like, God, I wish that was a more acceptable look for guys. I would love to have that look.

Speaker 2 Why don't you try it? I think we should try it first with brown eyeliner on you. I think black is going to look really.

Speaker 1 Let's work our way up. Okay, we'll go in steps.
But I definitely had it for

Speaker 1 Wednesday.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's fun.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Okay, now walk me through why now eyeliner at this late stage.

Speaker 2 I posted a picture of my mom and I on Mother's Day. Uh-huh.
Did you see it? No. Rob, do you want to put it up?

Speaker 1 Yes. Okay, great.

Speaker 1 I gave Rob something else to put up too. This is going to be a very visual heavy.

Speaker 2 You better go to that YouTube.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess people, I read a lot of people went to see the haircut, which delighted me. Of course.

Speaker 2 My mom is wearing eye makeup. She's wearing under-eye makeup in it, or whatever.
She's wearing eyeliner. Yeah.
And I, and I was like, oh, it looks so nice. And I used to wear it.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I decided to.

Speaker 1 When did it stop? Oh, well, also.

Speaker 2 The majority, I would say like 99.99%

Speaker 2 of the comments on that picture

Speaker 1 are about how I look exactly like like her interesting yes yeah yeah i take it as a a major compliment are you wearing eyeliner baby monica in this photo no okay look at the size of your eyeballs relative that's like uh vinny you got a similar ratio

Speaker 1 impossible dream to look like vinny yeah your head is only like 3x your eyeball size which is unique but her eyes are very big too they're huge and banging yeah yeah and so big eggs that's a way that's how you can tell someone has big eggs okay the size of their eyes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're correlated.

Speaker 2 Anyway, so she is wearing an eyeliner, if you can see, under her eyes. And I thought it looked really pretty.
And so I

Speaker 2 wanted to bring it back.

Speaker 1 I think she looks like Alana Glazer, too.

Speaker 2 What?

Speaker 1 That feels

Speaker 2 that

Speaker 2 feels left feel to me, but it does.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, she looks so cute.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 she does look so cute. My dad.

Speaker 1 And you look like a little guy, like a little boy. She got a little boy.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Nobody wants to hear that.

Speaker 2 God, your compliments have gotten so bad.

Speaker 1 I have some photos of me. I'll share with me carrying, you know, I carried a purse for like two years.

Speaker 1 So I'll give you some of those and you can go, oh, what a beautiful little girl.

Speaker 2 I'm not going to.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 2 Okay. I wouldn't say that.

Speaker 2 I'm not trying to hurt your feelings all the time.

Speaker 1 Anyway. Anyways, very cute pic.

Speaker 2 Anyway,

Speaker 2 so that's what the eyeliner is about.

Speaker 1 Because you saw your mom in it and you're like, well, why aren't talking about it?

Speaker 2 I thought it looked pretty. And since we look the same, I was like, oh, yeah, I should start doing that again.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Okay. I have a few things to talk about.

Speaker 2 I know.

Speaker 1 We're in this situation where you, I know you have a story for the last two days, but we were waiting for the fact check. Yeah.
Which I guess is, I guess that's not a complaint. That's fun.

Speaker 1 I have something to look forward to. Yeah.
But it is crazy to know you, you're like, oh, I, oh, you know what? I'll just wait. And then I'm like, oh, God,

Speaker 1 wow, I can't

Speaker 1 anticipation. The anticipation just also,

Speaker 1 it's so foreign for someone to say, I have this great thing and you have plenty of time. And then you go, but I'm not going to tell you for two years.

Speaker 2 You just sit in silence and don't say it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. Okay.
You went back to Atlanta. Is it involving?

Speaker 2 Yes, but before I get into my story,

Speaker 2 I just wanted to remind, if people have missed the Mo episode because they didn't know who he was,

Speaker 2 I recommend to go back and listen to that. It's a really good episode.
Kate Mara

Speaker 1 voice messaged me today she did uh-huh and she i just saw her and friendship oh i'm dying to see it i want to see it this weekend is it great it's great it's crazy i mean it really do you see it rob yeah i went to the vista and saw it by the way go to the vista we went that's what she said we went on a saturday or saw sam richardson oh fun i actually felt like oh my god i live in a neighborhood with a neighborhood theater and i actually know people like it was a very heartwarming experience and the vista was sold out on a saturday afternoon that's awesome.

Speaker 1 And Tarantino did a fucking awesome job with like the popcorn stand. Everything's retro.
So it's like the old

Speaker 2 Pam's Coffee.

Speaker 1 Nope.

Speaker 1 Just the movie, but the popcorn, Nathan's hot dogs, the way the signage is is very nostalgic. It's, it's awesome.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it's a, it's an insane movie. And it really

Speaker 1 tests how much you can fuck with the historic role of a protagonist. Like in Aristotle's laws of story, because this

Speaker 1 it's Tim.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Tim Robinson.

Speaker 1 Tim Robinson, and he's being very Tim Robinson. He's going berserk.
Yeah. And you kind of want everyone in his life to just get rid of him because he's, but he's your hero.
So it's like this.

Speaker 1 Right, Rob? Yeah, yeah, he's insane. Yeah.
And some of the biggest laughs in a theater that I've heard.

Speaker 2 Oh, I cannot wait. I can't wait to see it.

Speaker 1 And Paul Rudd is just what a champion for taking in that role and leaning into

Speaker 1 all of his paul ruddness in a great way

Speaker 2 love him kate uh messaged me that she listened she was listening to the mo episode and that she uh

Speaker 2 loved it and that it was really beautiful and she hadn't she didn't know him before and now she's going to watch his show oh wonderful yeah most of the comments are people saying i wasn't aware of him this is one of my favorite episodes yeah great so check it out if you haven't seen that or listen to that um okay Or Sina.

Speaker 1 You can say that now.

Speaker 2 Or Cena or listened.

Speaker 2 Another thing before my story. Yeah.
Two things. Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 So much foreplay. Ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 2 Easter egg. Easter egg.
Easter expert.

Speaker 1 Easter expert.

Speaker 2 That's what I said. Easter expert.

Speaker 1 Easter expert. Okay.
Wow. But wait, why is Easter in there?

Speaker 2 Because it's an Easter egg.

Speaker 1 Oh, right.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 2 Okay. Easter expert.

Speaker 1 That's perfect. It just took me a while to compute.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Okay.
This morning I was on Instagram and I saw Mandy Moore had like, she posted something and

Speaker 2 it reminded, it was when she was young and it reminded me of the hunked episode. Where she destroyed my house.
Yes. And I had to watch it.
Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It got in my head.

Speaker 1 And it was on YouTube.

Speaker 2 Yes. And I watched it this morning.
And it is so

Speaker 2 funny. It is so funny.

Speaker 1 That's the only one I ever broke in.

Speaker 1 I i think i told you that when when did you break i don't think i was prepared for the level of devastation that occurred they dropped this fucking uh steel i-beam yeah on this mobile home and it flattens it like a pancake

Speaker 1 and i'm watching it looking at it and the cameras and then i have to turn and act like i'm like emotional and i am laughing i'm like

Speaker 1 i'm like worried i'm not gonna be able to because you know i love when stuff breaks like when a car drives through a window or something that's my specific trigger.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I had to turn around for a minute and like regroup. Oh,

Speaker 2 is that when you said I have to go see what the damage is?

Speaker 1 No, I think I had

Speaker 1 gotten it together by then.

Speaker 1 What an insane bit that was.

Speaker 2 It's really fun for me to see you before I knew you.

Speaker 1 Oh, tell me how.

Speaker 2 God, I guess this might sound like one of your compliments.

Speaker 1 Oh, great. One of your horrible compliments.

Speaker 2 Because I know you so well,

Speaker 2 I think sometimes I forget the obvious things about you. Like, like when I'm watching it, I was like, God, he's so funny.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. Thank you.

Speaker 1 That's a great compliment.

Speaker 1 I didn't see that coming.

Speaker 2 But I know that about you, obviously. You're funny every day.

Speaker 1 Do you forget, like, I was a comedian at one point? I don't know.

Speaker 2 I was, I was just like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Dex is so funny. Oh, but thank you.

Speaker 1 You're really good. Let me stop there because that's great.
great. I could float on that.
Okay.

Speaker 1 I want to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 And like, same if I watch Parenthood, I'm like, oh, yeah, he's so good.

Speaker 1 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2 But then when we're here and I'm like, you know, annoyed by you because you're doing

Speaker 2 exactly. Then it's like a weird dissonance.
I kind of don't think of that person as the person I know.

Speaker 1 As again, I have a couple friendships where I juggle both things. I juggle what I feel about them on screen and then the reality of them in person as a friend.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 But even now, if I see you on screen now, every time, ever since I've known you.

Speaker 1 It's all, there's no magic, right? It's like just disillusion.

Speaker 2 I mean, I could still see objectively like, oh, that's funny or, oh, that's good, but I'm not, it's not the same.

Speaker 1 I totally get it.

Speaker 3 It's weird. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I can imagine even if I turned in

Speaker 1 a performance that was funnier than Frito or

Speaker 1 the grocery store movie I did, whatever that was called. Employ the month.
Yeah. Which for my money, I think is the best I ever did.

Speaker 1 If I did something that was like we could measure it was the same, it just wouldn't tickle you because

Speaker 1 you sit on a couch with me.

Speaker 2 I think it would tickle, I would have different feelings about.

Speaker 2 I would have

Speaker 2 more

Speaker 2 like, oh, like my friend did a good job feeling. Right.
As opposed to like just blind, like, oh, that's so funny.

Speaker 1 You can click into me being a stranger, basically.

Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes, yes. That makes sense.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then, and I always have this weird, like, you know, it ended and I was like, I can't believe that's him.

Speaker 2 Like, I can't believe I know that person the way I do. Life is weird.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because I watched punked.

Speaker 1 Right. But that was a completely different life ago, right?

Speaker 2 Yes, yes. It's so strange.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Life is strange.

Speaker 1 It feels like a different life ago. Even like

Speaker 1 what I do now, it's almost as if I am now a roofer and I used to be a car mechanic. Like there's something.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You changed industry, sort of.

Speaker 1 Well, definitely in that like the goals are so different. Yes.
The goals on punked were like, be as funny as reality will permit. And find the line and try.
We'll try your hardest to be right there.

Speaker 1 Right. And that was just such a specific mindset.
And then that's not what the mindset is in here for now, which is crazy. You know, we're going on.
Well, we've already passed my longest job ever.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And there'll be a point where,

Speaker 1 you know, I'll have done this as long as I acted, which is a crazy thought to me.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And this is.

Speaker 2 Does that make you feel good or bad? Or

Speaker 2 does it matter?

Speaker 1 Well, good in that, oh, fun. I got to experience so many things.
Yeah. Bad in that, well, this last 10 years was much quicker than the formative 10 years, right?

Speaker 1 Like punks to like 2003 to 2013, punk to end of parenthood is, to me, feels very long.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 This show feels like we've been doing for three years. Yeah.
Yeah. And that part's alarming.
Right. Yeah.
But I did have a dream last night that I was acting in something.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's kind of like my relapse dreams.
And I tell you, my relapse dreams are always the same. I'm, I'm like, I'm out of town and I'm drinking a few beers.

Speaker 1 And I realize, I remember, oh, I always drink a few beers when I'm out of town and it always works.

Speaker 1 And then when I wake up, I literally have to go like,

Speaker 1 you never drank in a few beers when you're out of town.

Speaker 1 No, I haven't. And then similarly, last night I was like taking a roll and we still had this.
So it was like I was having to juggle both things. But then

Speaker 1 I had been doing that for a long time. Weird.

Speaker 2 Life is curvy and swervy.

Speaker 1 It is. It's got curves and swerves.

Speaker 2 And I

Speaker 2 wonder, I don't know. Who knows how long we'll be doing this? Right.

Speaker 1 Unknowable.

Speaker 2 Unknowable. But

Speaker 2 I think what's weird for me is sometimes I wonder, like, this potentially is your acting.

Speaker 2 Like, this is my first acting.

Speaker 1 Yes, of course.

Speaker 2 You know, and there might be for me, not likely, there will be. Another thing after this.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 So imagine fast forward 12 years to my age and you've now been doing something longer than you ever did the podcast. Yeah, I know it's but it feels like a third of the time.
It's just very confusing.

Speaker 3 Yeah, weird.

Speaker 2 Anyway, it was really funny. If you want to check that out, it's on YouTube.
While you're on YouTube, go ahead and head over to the Armchair Expert.

Speaker 1 Subscribe. We've never asked anyone to subscribe.
I've always been really adverse to asking that.

Speaker 2 Go ahead and subscribe.

Speaker 1 Yeah, go fucking subscribe, even if you're never going to watch.

Speaker 2 Well, you should watch it. Another, okay, I guess I've just been taking in a lot of you on accident.

Speaker 1 Oh, so sorry. Because,

Speaker 2 um, well, I've been down a Malcolm Gladwell rabbit hole.

Speaker 1 Yeah, just for fun.

Speaker 2 Because I remembered how great the show is. Yes, after I listened to the Joe Rogan one and then the RFK one, I was like, fuck, this show's so good.
I forgot.

Speaker 2 And I thought, oh, I'm sure I've missed a lot of these episodes, so I should go back and look at some.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he did a bunch before Revenge of the Tipping Point or during that time. We had him on for that show.

Speaker 2 So I don't think I was paying much attention to revisionist history then, but I was like, oh, I'll check this out.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 there's one.

Speaker 2 I just have to really, really commend him. Actually, one's a ding, ding, ding, because it's about him basically saying, there's a section in the tipping point about the broken windows theory,

Speaker 2 which comes up in an upcoming episode for us, which is funny.

Speaker 2 And he comes on and he says, I was wrong about that. He straight up says, I was wrong.
This is why.

Speaker 2 And it is so

Speaker 2 interesting to hear someone just come out and be like,

Speaker 2 This thing that got a ton of traction for him

Speaker 2 is wrong.

Speaker 1 Because it extended into stop and frisk.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it now looking at it over time,

Speaker 2 crime went down, went down after Stop and Frisk was taken away.

Speaker 2 And all these people, Giuliani,

Speaker 1 Trump,

Speaker 2 are used, and they use the phrase, right? They use broken windows.

Speaker 2 And he's like, it didn't, that's not why, but they use it as a scare tactic. He said, I believed it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now I know it's not true.
And it was, it was really

Speaker 2 funny. You know, he plays this clip from Giuliani, and then he plays a clip of Trump saying it.
And he says, he says, sometimes I stay up at 3 a.m.

Speaker 2 and I think, oh, God, did he read the tipping point too?

Speaker 2 And everyone read it. And that's such a weird thing to think.
Like, you wrote something that everyone read and was persuaded by the pressure. That's a lot of pressure.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And again, you can't really consider that when you're writing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you can't, but it's just wild. Anyway, so then he has a couple episodes on the varsity blues, the kids who,

Speaker 2 the parents who paid for their kids to go to ID Universities. And you are in those episodes.
I am? Yeah, you're a voice actor.

Speaker 1 Oh, when they get to the

Speaker 2 trials.

Speaker 1 Oh, shit. Yeah.
I did. Wow, that's funny.
I never listened.

Speaker 1 I never listened to that.

Speaker 1 Me and britt martling yes funny because i i listened to when we redid um

Speaker 2 uh the mer little mermaid uh-huh but i didn't listen to that that's crazy really it was so weird because i was just like listening to these episodes and all of a sudden he's like and to play blah blah blah these you know

Speaker 2 lawyers. He's like, my voice actors, Britt Marling and Dak Shepard.
And I was like, oh my God, what is going on?

Speaker 1 Full infiltration.

Speaker 2 Yeah, full infiltration.

Speaker 1 And then you go into your bathroom and I go, hi.

Speaker 2 You talk to me through my speaker.

Speaker 2 Anyway, so

Speaker 2 that was great.

Speaker 1 I'll try to keep it coming. I'll try to do some more surprising.

Speaker 1 I got to get on a makeup tutorial. I get to get on a fashion podcast.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you do.

Speaker 1 I got to get on Elizabeth and Andy.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Now I have a story. Okay.
I was home to visit my mom for Mother's Day, and I heard the craziest story.

Speaker 2 And I was like, maybe I shouldn't bring it up because it's like kind of, it is sort of political, but it's wild. And I feel like I have to share it.
My friend's sister lives in pretty rural Georgia

Speaker 2 and she has a kid in preschool

Speaker 2 because the public schools really aren't very

Speaker 1 good.

Speaker 2 What's like the PC term for that?

Speaker 1 Whatever. They're not.
Underperforming?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I guess so.

Speaker 2 She sends her kid to a private school in rural Georgia, and it's pre-K through 12. Okay.
So for some, I don't know if it was Halloween or something,

Speaker 2 they threw this like big assembly event, and each grade

Speaker 2 had to dress up as a theme.

Speaker 2 So the pre-K was like, you know, superheroes and princesses, whatever. Yeah.
Standard theme. And then one of the themes for

Speaker 2 like a a youngish grade look to look to me like third grade. I saw pictures of this.

Speaker 2 Was Hurricane Helene. That was the theme.

Speaker 1 Oh, interesting.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Which is. Like, what do you play?

Speaker 1 Win the broken heart?

Speaker 2 Exactly. So some people were like the hurricane.

Speaker 1 God, that's a.

Speaker 1 They got fucked.

Speaker 2 What one girl was a FEMA check.

Speaker 1 Okay. Uh-huh.

Speaker 1 And I mean, that's on

Speaker 2 the story. But why do Hurricane Helene?

Speaker 1 Yeah, why? Oh, because, well, if they were in Northeast Georgia, I know that

Speaker 1 Asheville is very close to there, and it got submerged underwater.

Speaker 2 It ravaged Augusta.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Which, but that's also why it's weird, right? Like, if we did the fires.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Like, it impacted that area.

Speaker 1 Okay, one more chance at generosity here. Go ahead.
Remember to say in the time 100, like first 40 are so easy. Oh, yeah, that person who dodged a ball.
This is that actor.

Speaker 1 The last 15, you're like, he had a great golf swing. You know, you don't even sure.
So 12, 12 grade, maybe they just got to third grade last. And they're like, we have, we have used every category.

Speaker 1 Well, you haven't heard the knockout here. Okay.

Speaker 2 There's another grade. The theme was the Trump assassination.

Speaker 2 And this is

Speaker 1 real. This is almost impossible to believe.
Exactly. And yeah, forget politics, just like

Speaker 1 the assassination of anybody.

Speaker 2 I know. Yeah.
And all these boys are dressed up as like Secret Service. And then there's one boy dressed up as Trump.
And he has this, the full mat.

Speaker 2 He's like wearing a mask, a Trump mask, and like, you know, his ears all bandaged up. And

Speaker 2 then there's like, you know, kids, kids, fifth grade-ish looking kids in MAGA hats. And

Speaker 2 it was really, it was like, oh,

Speaker 2 yeah.

Speaker 2 And also what my friend, my friend, she was like, this is how it happens.

Speaker 2 Like, if you have any questions about like how, if you're like, you know, living in California and you're like, I just don't get it. This is how.

Speaker 2 It starts so young.

Speaker 1 Yes, yes, yes. Like,

Speaker 2 isn't that wild it's wild

Speaker 2 and I don't know why this is my compulsion I don't want to be mad and I know I know I don't want to get mad at you and I don't want it and it's fine as fit it's your compulsion but I would I mean these my friends who are also like my friends who were shocked by this right they're they're Georgia people they're not like they're not what you would say coastal city elites exactly and they're like that there's no way that's real so I think that's very extreme yeah and I think it's bonkers Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And they are in rural Georgia hearing about a real case here in LA

Speaker 1 where a child identified as a cat and they put a litter box in the bathroom.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 1 So I only say that to just say

Speaker 1 if we focus, focus on the

Speaker 1 crazy ones, like they're on both sides and neither are really that.

Speaker 2 representative but no one no school here is doing dress up like a be it pretend you're a cat day no but they're putting a litter box in the bathroom that that's that's truly craziness that's I mean look that's one story you heard right like that's not a sweeping thing right this person is our president yeah yeah he was elected no no I'm only talking about the school's decision I well I'm hoping yeah that that's as rare is the litter box

Speaker 1 in the bathroom that's what that's all I'm saying is I'm I'm just my optimistic self is hoping that that is rare. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's a private school. Right.

Speaker 1 So here's what I would hate. If someone hears the litter box story, right? They're in Georgia.
You know, these fucking California schools.

Speaker 1 And I just would go like, well, hey, just my kids' school isn't like that at all. It's public.
Sure.

Speaker 2 But that is part of why, like, a public school. doesn't isn't able to do things like that.

Speaker 1 You go that crazy.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And then I was thinking, like, if if I had my, if I lived there,

Speaker 2 what would I do? These are the options of a very underperforming public school or this. Like, this is a bad situation for people making decisions.

Speaker 1 You'd probably have to live somewhere different, which is like the sedaris thing. It's like, yeah, if you're gay in a small town, go to the city.

Speaker 2 But you might not have the money. Like, I mean, there's just a lot of factors here that make it for me.
Like, I understand this is hard.

Speaker 1 You can live low income in all states. Yeah.
Right. You could be up in Oregon or Eastern Washington.
There's like, there's equivalencies in liberal states, if that was your desire.

Speaker 1 Was the parent,

Speaker 1 they were like, what the fuck's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what

Speaker 1 did their kid have to dress as like Superman or something?

Speaker 2 Oh, okay, great.

Speaker 1 Thank God.

Speaker 2 But that's what I was like. Now this kid is in a horror.
Like, let's say this kid was of age of one of these horrible themes, right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 And his mom, my friend's sister, is like, no, you're probably not going to dress up as a FEMA check, you know?

Speaker 2 Then he might be like, well, I'll be an outcat. Like, this is so the pressure.
Yes.

Speaker 2 It's upsetting.

Speaker 1 It is. It is.

Speaker 2 It is. Cause I and an opportunity.

Speaker 1 Like my mom would say to me, what do you think of

Speaker 1 What do you think of all these kids calling each other fags on the playground?

Speaker 1 What do you think it's like to be gay and hear that? Yeah. What do you think it's, you know, like my school is all Christian.

Speaker 1 We didn't go to church on Sunday and other people that, you know, like, well, what do you,

Speaker 1 it's also not bad to be an outcast. Yeah.
And to be,

Speaker 1 it's a character builder. And if your parents are engaging you on it, then that's an opportunity.

Speaker 2 Guess you're right. It's just hard.
It's hard to be an outcast. It's really hard.
I went to church with my friends.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
Because I, you know.

Speaker 1 Can I show one thing? It's actually weirdly related to your story. Yeah.
Rob, will you put up the thing I sent you? I just stumbled upon this.

Speaker 1 This is Quirky Maps, I guess, is the source. I follow a few different infograph

Speaker 1 accounts on Instagram, and they're so fun. Now, this is a

Speaker 1 countrywide breakdown of largest employers by state.

Speaker 2 Huh, interesting.

Speaker 1 And what's undeniable about this map is

Speaker 1 you can quite clearly see the states where Walmart's the number one employer is almost universally a red state.

Speaker 1 And then lo and behold, the states where the university's the number one employer, which is several, they're all without exception also blue. They vote blue.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So it's interesting. Of all the employers, really, there's just three categories, really four.

Speaker 1 There's either you work for Walmart, you work for a healthcare, like a hospital system, or a university system. And there are only two that are like manufacturing.

Speaker 1 Michigan, General Motors is the largest employer, and then Boeing in Washington. But I just thought this was a very informative intro.

Speaker 1 Like in Colorado, the largest employer is the Denver International Airport.

Speaker 3 That's really wild.

Speaker 1 Yeah, like MGM Resorts make sense in Nevada. Uh-huh.
But just all these university systems, that's pretty fascinating.

Speaker 2 Well, but North Carolina is

Speaker 2 the university system.

Speaker 1 And North Carolina is. It's purple.
It is far more liberal than the surrounding states.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And it does make sense for like your bread and butter, right? Like people are pretty loyal to their bread and butter.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 2 Ours is

Speaker 2 the university system, UCLA,

Speaker 2 or UC, I guess.

Speaker 1 The UC system. Yeah.
New York is the university. It's like you talk about the elites and the coastal.
It's like, oh, yeah, that's, well, there's

Speaker 1 pretty obvious reason.

Speaker 2 A lot of it's healthcare.

Speaker 1 Yes. 16.
So 21 states, the largest employer is Walmart. 16 states, the healthcare is the largest, eight for education and five for others, of which there's really no.

Speaker 2 One in one states, Walmart is the largest employer.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Wow.

Speaker 1 Anyways, I guess find corky maps. I liked that.

Speaker 2 That's cool. I like that.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay, facts. We're going to transition into facts now.

Speaker 1 Okay, great.

Speaker 1 Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert,

Speaker 1 if you dare.

Speaker 1 We are supported by Walden University.

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Speaker 3 Okay, Michelle Facts.

Speaker 2 Larry Mantle.

Speaker 1 Oh, great.

Speaker 1 He deserves this. He is a

Speaker 1 man.

Speaker 1 Toll.

Speaker 2 Okay, Larry Mantle is an American radio talk show host and journalist on the Southern California NPR station LAist.

Speaker 2 L.A.ist?

Speaker 1 L.A.ist?

Speaker 2 Mantle hosts Air Talk with Larry Mantle, which is the longest-running daily talk show currently on Los Angeles radio. Air Talk.

Speaker 1 That's the show Kristen's obsessed with.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 There's a picture of him we have up here. He's 66.

Speaker 2 He was born here in LA.

Speaker 1 He has a great origin story. I want to say, like, he applied it, uh, MPR, and he didn't get it.
And then he went to another station and he started, and he was so good, then they brought him in.

Speaker 1 There's some kind of fun. Let me read you.
Oh, you know, let me just shave the side. No,

Speaker 1 okay, go ahead. Impulse control issues.
They say it's part of ATHD. Get, I got a little bit, but that's okay.

Speaker 1 Oh my God.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God. Okay.
While in graduate school, Mantle was living in Pasadena and listened to NPR's All Things Considered on KPCC.

Speaker 2 He knew that KPCC also produced a daily one-hour local news program and used community volunteers and Pasadena City College students to supplement a small professional staff.

Speaker 2 Mantle started volunteering at KPCC and was soon anchoring newscasts and providing play-by-play play-by-play of college and high sports carried by the station.

Speaker 2 Later, Mantle became the first local morning edition host for KPCC. After briefly working for CBS News Talk affiliate, KPR Rivershine, Mantle returned to KPCC as news director in 1983.

Speaker 2 Two years later, he launched AirTalk with the intention of combining listener calls from an analytic and news-savvy audience with local experts and newsmakers.

Speaker 1 Huh.

Speaker 2 That's all it says.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It doesn't say that he struggled.

Speaker 1 Okay. Sounds like a rocket ship, right, of success because of his enormous talent.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 2 He has a son. That's a long time.

Speaker 1 Did you say 1983?

Speaker 2 He returned as the news director for KPCC in 1983, two years later. So 85.

Speaker 1 Okay, so 40-year anniversary for him.

Speaker 2 Wow, that's cool.

Speaker 1 Dude, congrats.

Speaker 2 Very big congrats. Okay, she said it was a tough day for MPR.

Speaker 2 That was Friday, a couple Fridays ago, I guess.

Speaker 2 He had the day before Trump had issued an executive order directing the corporation for PBS, well, Public Broadcasting's Board of Directors to cease federal funding for NPR and PBS.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so let me just say, A, I hate this. This is fucking ridiculous.
But I will say I was a little comforted when I read, not PBS.

Speaker 1 I think that one's really largely federally funded, but NPR is only getting, I want to say the number I wrote is like 2% from federal funding.

Speaker 1 So I am a little relieved that potentially they can survive that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, hopefully.

Speaker 1 Much of a ridiculous

Speaker 1 hopefully PBS. What do we spend money? The shit we spend money on.
It's like, let's trim out all this stuff that's so low. impact.
I know. Doesn't move the needle at all.

Speaker 1 And we lose all of our favorite things from the public funding.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know. And we also.
Sesame Street and everything.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's making sure that media stays divisive and private.
And that's like the opposite of what we need right now.

Speaker 1 I mean, I do my best to give the argument a fair shot, right? There are many left-leaning media outlets, and there's right-leaning media outlets. PBS is not.

Speaker 1 Like when they have the election and they do a two-hour thing on Hillary and they do a two-hour thing on Trump, they are equally hard-hitting.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 3 I know.

Speaker 1 But I was trying to think: is NPR left-leaning?

Speaker 2 Uh, maybe, but is it left-leaning because people on the left are listening?

Speaker 1 Like, that's not a fair assessment of I guess though, his point would be: if, if all of Americans are funding it and half of Americans are conservative and half are liberal, it's not fair that the output is leaning left.

Speaker 1 That's fair, that's a fair critique. Now, cut it entirely or try to correct that is two different arguments.

Speaker 2 But is it left-leaning because it's telling the truth? There's some truths that are happening right now that a lot of that maybe Republicans would say are left-leaning, but they're the truth.

Speaker 1 No, I'm, I'm more mean, like, if they're going to do, KCRW is going to do a story on unhoused. Is it going to be the liberal version of unhoused or is it going to be the conservative version?

Speaker 1 And I do think probably more often it is the liberal point of it.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I don't know about what they.

Speaker 1 I know I listen to NPR and I like it. So I'm inclined to think it probably is a bit more left.
I guess that's my gut intuition about it.

Speaker 2 But again, is it what you're attracted to is that it's

Speaker 3 true facts being told?

Speaker 1 Well, like I'm pro-gay marriage. So when that was all being talked about,

Speaker 1 everything I'm hearing on there is the experts talking about the reality of that situation. But I'm pro that

Speaker 1 union, right?

Speaker 1 They're not going to give 30 minutes to a Christian saying that God says this is wrong. They're not going to do that on NPR.

Speaker 1 But your argument might be that that shouldn't,

Speaker 1 you're right, and that shouldn't get 30 minutes on NPR. But I guess if it is federally funded and it has to be reflective of all the people that are paying for it,

Speaker 1 then maybe it does.

Speaker 2 I don't know. My guess is,

Speaker 2 yeah, maybe I just don't know, but I assume they do cover both sides. Like, I think the daily, often you hear the other point of views.
You hear, they will interview people who are on both sides.

Speaker 2 So you can hear what everyone is thinking.

Speaker 1 Well, now the daily, I don't know if you listen to it, but I really encourage you to listen to it.

Speaker 1 These two professors at Princeton wrote a book, which is they have analyzed now for four years. the COVID response.

Speaker 1 And they take all this World Health Organization had just done a a study on social distancing for an airborne viral congestive virus. And they concluded it does, it doesn't work.
It has no impact.

Speaker 1 And so their point is, and these are liberal Princeton professors, they're like, where was the New York Times saying, what about this article? Like we did a, the left did a bad job.

Speaker 1 of being um pushing hard and pressure testing the things we were being told and there's now a lot of evidence of but you can't can't do it until you're in it and after.

Speaker 1 Well, no, because this report that had been funded by the WHO, it existed. It existed.

Speaker 1 Anyone who wanted to look would have found that they just ran this study and that it was recommended that that would be...

Speaker 2 What pandemic?

Speaker 1 On a airborne

Speaker 1 virus.

Speaker 2 But that affected this level. It couldn't happen.

Speaker 1 You'll hear them. I want to get them on.
I think when you hear it, you'll be very convinced, as I was. Like, oh, wow.
Normally we would have heard this counter argument to what was being proposed.

Speaker 1 It's how the fourth estate works. And what these two professors are saying is like, there was an institutional breakdown.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we need to come to terms with that. And we need to prevent that from happening again.
And one of the people that now the daily is brave enough to now run it.

Speaker 1 in 2025, but the daily would have never touched that WHO study during the pandemic, which they did, they just should have. They really should have.

Speaker 1 And we'll have the experts on, and I think you'll agree. And there were many, it got so politicized, the whole event.

Speaker 1 And I'm not defending the right, the right stance was fucking ridiculous on it, right?

Speaker 1 But there was a big breakdown, and you have to ask then why. And I think part of the explanation, as do these people, is like

Speaker 1 every

Speaker 1 journalistic output became so politicized. They're either left or right.

Speaker 1 We need PBS. We need NPR.
We need ones that are not servicing the market. Right.

Speaker 1 And,

Speaker 1 you know. That's what I said.

Speaker 2 Anyway, that had just happened the day before. So that's why she said that.
Uh-huh. Now, Leonardo DiCaprio and his T-Rex.

Speaker 1 Oh, right. It's good.
We need a good reminder of what's going on here.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it says he doesn't own a T-Rex.

Speaker 2 He has an interest in dinosaur fossils and has purchased several, including a mosasauric skull and an allosaurus skull.

Speaker 2 But he is not known to own a complete T-rex skeleton or fossil, according to many sources.

Speaker 1 Damn it. Why did we, why am I perpetuating that?

Speaker 2 I don't know. We want it to be true.
I'm sure he wants it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I hope he's not offended. Like, if anything, I could get wrong about him.
Yeah. The fact that I think he's got a really cool T-Rex skeleton, I hope, doesn't offend him.

Speaker 2 I hope not either.

Speaker 1 I'd sure love to interview him.

Speaker 2 Okay, the apex. She mentioned the apex.

Speaker 2 That's, I guess, the the new dinosaur discovered the stegosaurus dinosaur fossil that is considered one of the largest and most complete of its species ever found.

Speaker 2 It was discovered in Colorado, and it's at the American Museum of Natural History.

Speaker 1 Look at that.

Speaker 2 Wow, that's so cool.

Speaker 1 Those plates are enormous on the back. Yeah, they are.
That's virtually what I was looking at installing on top of our gates.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We're always just trying to replicate what nature already figured out.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Oh, imagine getting spiked with one of those.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But it's so clever because they get attacked from behind.

Speaker 3 Yep.

Speaker 1 Good luck. Good luck.

Speaker 2 It's so hard for my brain to

Speaker 2 integrate that that's real.

Speaker 2 That those things really walked this earth.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And like, what will be here? What will be here?

Speaker 1 In a billion years.

Speaker 2 Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Now, Malcolm said on this episode of Revisionist History, the Joe Rogan one that we talked about, he said

Speaker 2 about his dad in the interview he did with

Speaker 2 Michael Gervais,

Speaker 2 he said something very sweet about understanding his dad more in death

Speaker 2 than now.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to find that clip.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, I'll go back. To not, to not to participate in that spirit.
When I'm getting a little emotional, Todd, yeah, I'm in danger. When I talk about my father, I start crying.
So,

Speaker 1 yeah, what is that about?

Speaker 1 I don't know, he was.

Speaker 1 I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 I'd encourage you to open it wide open.

Speaker 1 There I was, on stage in front of hundreds of people, perfectly happy. Then my dad came up, and all of a sudden I became overwhelmed.
And I was embarrassed. It wasn't what I intended.

Speaker 1 I wasn't there to bare my soul. Didn't I just say 10 seconds before that the Gladwells are not emotional people?

Speaker 1 I want to move on, but Gervais won't let me. So off we go in an entirely new direction.

Speaker 1 I mean, I do cry every time.

Speaker 1 He's been gone five years.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 a friend of mine said,

Speaker 1 two friends of mine said two very beautiful things that I've always remembered. One was

Speaker 1 a friend of mine who was writing something about his father and he said,

Speaker 1 my father died 20 years ago today.

Speaker 1 I know him better today than I did back then.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I think about that

Speaker 1 nearly every day.

Speaker 2 So sweet.

Speaker 3 So sweet.

Speaker 1 It is so sweet.

Speaker 1 You know, hearing that make makes something for me make so much more sense, which is

Speaker 1 Malcolm one time randomly

Speaker 1 sent me a text that said, I stumbled upon the thing thing you wrote about your dad. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I didn't know you were such a great writer.

Speaker 2 Oh, that's nice.

Speaker 1 It's just made me like sore. Yeah.
And I thought, how on earth did he stumble upon that? But it's interesting because he's talking about a friend who wrote about his father who's dead.

Speaker 1 And this definitely happened within the time that his dad had died. Right.
And it's conceivable that he was on the search reading that stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Sweet, sweet mouth.

Speaker 1 God, hearing him like that is so endearing.

Speaker 3 It really is.

Speaker 1 We love him so much.

Speaker 1 He's so special. We really love him so much.

Speaker 2 But that is such a beautiful sentiment that you can keep knowing people past their and that the um grieving is how you keep someone alive is also yeah sweet that's it that's it

Speaker 1 all right love you love you

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