The Truth Behind True Crime with Anna-Sigga Nicolazzi

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Speaker 3 Welcome to the shit show. Things are going to get weird.

Speaker 3 It's your fae villain, Kale Lower.

Speaker 1 And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Speaker 3 Welcome back to another episode of Barely Famous Podcast. I'm sitting with Anna Sega Nicolazzi.
Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 2 Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 3 You were a former prosecutor for the Brooklyn DA office, and you also served as chief of trials on Homicide Bureau.

Speaker 2 Is that right? Did I say that right? It's a long title, and that's why it's hard to say. Okay.

Speaker 2 But that is like, you know, if you're there long enough, there's only so many titles they have, so they start to create them.

Speaker 3 Well, that makes me feel a lot better because my face is blushing now.

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, no. I was a homicide prosecutor for 16 of my 21 years in the Brooklyn DA's office.
And that basically just means that I was there as an assistant, always trying cases the entire time.

Speaker 2 But after being there for a while, I was a supervisor. Ultimately, that was my last title, which really just meant that I really focused on helping the newer assistants with their trials.

Speaker 3 How did you get into

Speaker 3 law? Like, did you always want to be an attorney?

Speaker 2 No, I think just one day when my dad asked me my first year of college what I wanted to be, I had to think about it probably for the first time. And I was like, I want to be a teacher or a lawyer.

Speaker 2 And that was it. It was one or the other.
I didn't know which. And he said, you should be a teacher.
And so then I was like, well, then I'm going to be a lawyer.

Speaker 2 But they're so different, a teacher and a lawyer. I don't know what it was, but I still think, like, I, you know, I do some teaching and lecturing, and I love it.

Speaker 2 But I think there's something similar to being a prosecutor because you have to speak to juries. Like, you have to take all this information and boil it down into ways that are digestible to people.

Speaker 2 And I love that. I mean, I still love that.
I mean, look what I'm doing now, like podcasting, television. I'm still having to tell stories in a way that is digestible and hopefully compelling.

Speaker 2 So I do see this like common strain between the two, but yeah, I definitely went a different route than going in front of a classroom.

Speaker 3 What did your dad say when you decided law?

Speaker 2 So he said he is a well now retired doctor. He said as long as you don't work in malpractice, that's okay.
And I saw him be a prosecutor and he said, now I'm happy.

Speaker 2 So if he's like, I'm not a fan of lawyers, he's like, because I'm a doctor, but

Speaker 2 they felt really good, both my parents, about that. And I loved it.
They knew why I wanted to do it. And, you know, I said, I'm not going to make that much money.

Speaker 2 And they're like, but you love what you do. And that's the most important thing.

Speaker 3 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: And do you agree with that now?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, that's what the advice I would say to anyone is that do what you love because we spend so much time working.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so if it's just a grind, and again, you have to do what you have to do. So I'm not saying that don't do something if that's your only option.
We have to all pay our bills.

Speaker 2 But a lot of my friends went to big firms and they made a ton of money when they didn't love it. And they all left eventually, or at least most of them.
And I loved every single day in that office.

Speaker 2 And that to me was more important than the money I was bringing home, which again, it got better over the years. So I don't want to say that I didn't make a living.

Speaker 2 I made a pretty good living by the end of it. But in those first years, it was very hard to pay rent.
But when you loved it, it was kind of like that camaraderie with people our own age.

Speaker 2 So it was fun, but you were doing really stressful and what I believe was important work. And it just felt good all the way around.

Speaker 3 Is it true that when you initially, I guess, intern with a DA's office that you don't get paid at all?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Although I think they do have paid internships in some of them.
Because I think I did when I did one.

Speaker 2 I think I did get something for it, but you definitely don't get paid for some, which is prohibitive for many people because they need to make money during their summers.

Speaker 2 But I looked at it as hopefully a way to find out what I wanted to do. And I interned at a different office.
I was in the Crimes Against Children's Bureau and the Sexual Assault Bureau.

Speaker 2 And I was just like, this is for me. Like, just getting in there and being a victim's advocate in different ways, which I believe is part of the role of a prosecutor, I hope.

Speaker 2 I knew that's what I wanted to do.

Speaker 3 Did you ever watch Law and Order and were inspired at all?

Speaker 2 Not did I ever. When did I not?

Speaker 2 And I am not kidding.

Speaker 2 Like the fact that I now host and executive produce a Law and Order podcast, like that is like my fangirl dream come true from it because I always loved Law and Order from the beginning.

Speaker 2 And when I would come home, especially in the early days in the DA's office, and I was shot exhausted, all I wanted to do was like have some good takeout and watch TV. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And, you know, as everyone knows, there's always a Law and Order show on somewhere on some channel. So I would watch them back to back, back to back.
Yep. And I loved it.
I always loved it.

Speaker 2 So it was just funny the way life works. And these, you know, literally decades later, when I left being a prosecutor and then went to television, then the podcasting.
And then when

Speaker 2 this opportunity came to work together on the first Law and Order podcast, the first thing that is real people, real stories of that franchise. Like that was as exciting.

Speaker 2 Here it is as exciting as it could be for me.

Speaker 3 No, that's incredible. That's, I watch all the lawyer shows.
I write like Law and Order Suits, Lincoln Lawyer, How to Get Away with Murder, all the things because I am an aspiring lawyer.

Speaker 3 One day, maybe when all my kids grow up, but you've tried over 50 felony cases and... 35 homicides.

Speaker 2 Yes. Is that right? Yes.
At least. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Is a murder a felony?

Speaker 2 Yes. So anything that you can go to jail potentially for over a year is usually how they look at them.
Like that has a rate, just a different category of crime.

Speaker 2 Like if someone steals like something off a table, that's going to be a misdemeanor and is obviously much less serious than if you go up to somebody with a gun and take that property from them.

Speaker 2 That'll be a felony. So it really is just a difference in the level of crime.

Speaker 3 As a prosecutor, do you get to pick which cases you're on or you're assigned to them?

Speaker 2 Initially, you're assigned by your supervisor. In later years, I was the one giving out the cases, so I certainly was able to choose some of them, but then the DA would ask me to take certain ones.

Speaker 2 He's the elected DA,

Speaker 2 or my boss at the time, who was the chief of homicide, because I love double jury cases. So if they had a case that you were going to try, two juries at the same time, that was my wheelhouse.

Speaker 2 But a lot of them you're just given.

Speaker 3 Can you explain to me what would warrant two juries, double jury?

Speaker 2 So you can't use, if we committed a crime together, which we never would because we don't commit crime, but if we did, then you can't use what one person says against the other, right?

Speaker 2 So that means if you made statements to the police and if I made statements to the police and if the prosecutor wanted to present those at trial, we would each have our own jury so that one jury would leave the room if your statements were being presented.

Speaker 2 Or separately, we would do two trials.

Speaker 2 And as a prosecutor, I love doing them at the same time because my witnesses only have to come in for that trial, hopefully that one time as opposed to multiple occasions.

Speaker 2 And just picture that, like, especially when you're talking about these just horrific scenarios. And people are scared to come in and be witnesses in homicide cases.

Speaker 2 As you can imagine, it was much easier to do that once.

Speaker 3 So, in terms of a case like John Benet Ramsey, where both parents were represented by individual attorneys, would that be a case of double jury?

Speaker 2 No, not necessarily. It's really only if they make statements that you want to present against them at trial, or there's something else called irreconcilable defenses.

Speaker 2 And I don't want to get too deep into the weeds, but basically, if two people have defenses that you couldn't possibly believe both, so the jury would have to pick one versus the other.

Speaker 2 Well, you want to make sure that the person that's sitting in the defendant's chair gets a fair trial, right? And as a prosecutor, we want that too.

Speaker 2 And that's really important to the criminal justice system.

Speaker 2 So there's these safeguards built in that if you'd have to believe one or the other, well, then you're going to be tried separately or with your own jury so that they can assess the evidence just for you and you alone.

Speaker 3 Okay, so that reminds me of a case I just recently watched, a docu series on Yen Soaring.

Speaker 3 I didn't want to see that one.

Speaker 3 I had never heard of this case until I watched the docuseries and was completely blown away.

Speaker 3 And what you're describing, I think, is a case where they were tried separately, I believe, but the statements were used against each other.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 And again, you can bring that person in and they can testify, but you couldn't have a police officer say this person told me X, Y, and Z, unless, you know, know, if I got on the stand and said something, then we can still be tried together because your lawyer can cross-examine me.

Speaker 3 Okay, so more like Menendez brothers.

Speaker 2 Okay, got it. There you go.
Under

Speaker 3 see, I could be a lawyer. I'm just kidding.
I'm not cut out. But Anatomy of Murder is your first podcast, and that started in 2020.

Speaker 2 Yep, we are on our fifth season now.

Speaker 3 That's incredible. And now you have your new podcast.

Speaker 2 So let's talk about it. Yep, law and order.
We are wrapping up our first season.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I was re-listening to the episode that dropped today because, as you know, listening to them, it's good to listen to what people are hearing the way that they're hearing it.

Speaker 2 One, because I want to hear if I'm still happy with the way it came out or if I want to do something a little differently.

Speaker 2 And hopefully I didn't make too many grammatical errors because my mom will call me and tell me every single time. So I listen to them too to know what phone calls coming my way that day.

Speaker 2 But I was just thinking, it's just...

Speaker 2 And these ones in particular, we were talking about organized crime this first season because we said, why not start the criminal justice system podcast for law and order with the largest criminal organization certainly to hit New York City ever, which is the mafia.

Speaker 2 But we wanted to do it in a way that was really a deep dive, which is coming from my wheelhouse, what I want. I was like, it's never just the headlines, any crime.
Like, that's always the stuff.

Speaker 2 Like, I understand why it's the headlines, but it's always so much more interesting when you dig deeper.

Speaker 2 And we were fortunate to get the prosecutors, the FBI agents, the New York state prosecutors, the daughters of some of the most major players.

Speaker 2 And it's just really interesting to hear their perspective and really different. Certainly for me as a prosecutor, I learned so much.

Speaker 3 So what are the differences between

Speaker 3 Anatomy of Murder and Law and Order, the podcast? Like what are some differences that you can talk about?

Speaker 2 So Anatomy of Murder is a weekly that I do with my friend and also my partner on the show, my co-host, Scott Weinberger.

Speaker 2 We did a television series together that he executive produced, which is how I got to know him. I actually got to know him for another show he did.
I'm sorry. Time Time goes by.

Speaker 2 He was a producer, but he's also former law enforcement. Okay.

Speaker 2 So he is the first person that ever talked me into doing a television interview when I was a prosecutor still for his show on the case with Paul Azahn.

Speaker 2 And it really was his background as first law enforcement, but then as a reporter, that I thought that he really cared about portraying things

Speaker 2 as honestly as he could, as opposed to just the quick headline. And that was important to me.
And we got to be very good friends.

Speaker 2 And then we traveled together when we had four seasons of a show on Investigation Discovery that I hosted, True Conviction.

Speaker 2 And we would talk about these cases all the time because, you know, the cameras would be done rolling, but I'm still talking because I cannot get enough of this stuff.

Speaker 2 Like, this is my, my, I live it, I breathe it, it's my DNA, it's what I care about. And he is very similar.
And one day, I think it was like, he's like, we should do a podcast. I was like, a podcast.

Speaker 2 What are you talking about? Like, what is it? I was like, radio? Like, what is that? Besides cereal, I had never listened to one. Yeah.
He said, we have these conversations. We should do that one day.

Speaker 2 And without thinking much about it, I was like, sure, we'll try it. Well, then COVID hit.
Okay.

Speaker 2 And I recorded narration for my television show out of my closet. And he's like, well, we could do a podcast that same way.
We could talk to each other remotely.

Speaker 2 You can record there and I can record at my house. And that's what we did.
And that's how Anatomy or Murder started.

Speaker 2 And who knew that we'd be fortunate that it was just, you know, we've been so fortunate with the success of the show. And it's really built this great community of like-minded people.

Speaker 2 So it's just a lot of fun for me to have people that care about the same things I care about and that I can still talk about a world that I know. Right.

Speaker 2 And it's just great that we're going into the fifth season, but it's really different than Law and Order because we focus on one crime per episode normally for anatomy of murder, but we still talk to people involved in the cases because I think that's always the best source when we can get it.

Speaker 2 Whereas Law and Order, it's a limited series. So we have 11 episodes this season.

Speaker 2 And we have been focused on a subject matter. At least that's where we are right now.
We're just finishing the first season. So it was a deep dive into organized crime in New York City.
Right.

Speaker 2 We're leading up to, you know, basically present day and the criminal justice system. It hits so many areas.
We're like, let's tackle a different area each season.

Speaker 2 So at least for now, that is the plan. So it's different.
You know, one is more episodic. Like, you could just listen to one and that's all you need.
We're the other.

Speaker 2 I'm always like, you got to go back to the first if you're going to get

Speaker 2 what you're going to hear by the end of it.

Speaker 3 Is there any similarities between your show and Law and Order, the show, the TV show?

Speaker 2 Sure, I think because they are portraying us, which is

Speaker 2 like they're portraying those of us that have really worked this world. So, you know, friends of mine that are former law enforcement, they are technical advisors to Law and Order.

Speaker 2 So they really do work to get it right, but with the Hollywood creative flair that makes for great television or for great content.

Speaker 2 As prosecutors, we used to watch to see like which of our cases would be on it, which is always fun. I was like, I saw your case on Law and Order the other day.

Speaker 2 And they're like, I think one of yours is on go look so that was fun but I used to say when I was asked as a prosecutor about law and order it's like I was never able to give the perfect summation in two minutes like Jack McCoy always did so in that way it's a little different yeah their offices look a little nicer and the set which I was like talk about like being excited I got to go to the set of law and order to do

Speaker 2 promo pictures for the podcast. And they're like, are you willing to do that? I was like, am I willing to do that? I was like, I would pay people to get onto that set.

Speaker 2 I was like a little kid in there. I was like basically like skipping around the set with my friend who's also doing makeup and the photographer who was with us as well.

Speaker 2 I was like, this is awesome, guys. Like, we're on the lawn or a set.

Speaker 2 So it's been really fun to see it. And that courtroom, I will say, looks very similar to the courtrooms that I actually tried cases in.

Speaker 2 So they really worked very hard to make it as realistic as they could.

Speaker 3 I always wondered about that. Like, if an attorney would ever watch a show like that and be like, that is so far off.

Speaker 3 And I'm sure in some instances, right, like Gray's Anatomy and Doctors, probably not anything similar, but maybe law.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, there is. I mean, again, they come together in an hour, at least many of them.
Yeah. But, you know, law and order tackles human frailties.
We're not perfect people.

Speaker 2 You know, we try to do things our best, but we all stumble. Right.
And I think they hit that with different characters in different ways. And I always loved that about the show.

Speaker 2 You know, I was always...

Speaker 2 careful with the content I watch because I come from a different place working in this world. So I want people to take it seriously.

Speaker 2 That doesn't mean that, you know, a podcast or a show that handles it in a lighter manner isn't okay. It's just not for me.
Right.

Speaker 2 You know, coming from my world, like I sit with the families who have lost their kids. I sit with the families who have lost their loved ones.
So that's always in the back of my brain.

Speaker 2 And I want anyone that's listening to what I'm talking about or watching one of my shows to know that I hopefully handle them with care. And for me, that's really important.
So,

Speaker 2 gosh, I think I lost my train of thought. Oh, no, you're not.
Hanging on my box about victim advocacy.

Speaker 2 It's just always in the back of my head, especially as you know, like this content is, it's just, it's all over the place now. And there's just so much of it.

Speaker 2 And I think that's unfortunate because it says how prevalent crime is in our society. But I think it's fortunate because people get to tell their stories.
And

Speaker 2 we get to analyze a system for the good and the bad of it. And that's bringing me back to the actual question.

Speaker 2 There we go. If we talk long enough, we get back there, which is that there is that reality factor, the good and the bad in law, like you said, and in law and Order, with how they handled it.

Speaker 2 So it's kind of fun now that they have taken the first step outside of the scripted drama, which all the law and orders are to date, which is also awesome for me to be the first of a different piece of their franchise coming from my background.

Speaker 2 But yet it's still handled in the same way. Like they care about the same things.
They really do. Like no one knows storytelling better, but they also were.

Speaker 2 We just had this great meeting of the minds. Like I need to do this a certain way for me to be comfortable.
And for them, they're like, well, that's how we see it too. Right.
Right.

Speaker 3 I don't know if you're familiar with Valerie Borline. I had her on the podcast a few weeks ago, and we were talking about the fascination that we have with murder and crime in general.

Speaker 3 And I just wonder, from your perspective, why do you think that we're all so invested in things like true crime?

Speaker 2 Different reasons, I think. And it's a question I get asked all the time.
And so I think I've had to think about it more.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I think, one, let's just face it, as terrible as it is, it can be really interesting and exciting in the trying to figure things out for those type of cases. So there's that.

Speaker 2 There is the people are looking from the outside because you want to know what else is out there, sometimes because it's interesting, but also to make sure if there's a way to kind of protect yourself that you can.

Speaker 2 And I've heard that. I can't even tell you how many times.
They're like, oh my gosh, I know I'll never walk in an alley because I've seen it on shows.

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 2 they understand things that they didn't about human nature sometimes

Speaker 2 from really getting the deeper dive in some of these stories. So I think it's all of that.

Speaker 2 You know, when I talk to people from the AOM community, and you know, and social is a great thing for that, like, is connecting with people that you'd probably never run into, right?

Speaker 2 You can only be in one place at one time.

Speaker 2 But they really feel all the time for the people they're hearing from, and and they can be inspired by their strength and say, like, if this person has been through this, but they still get up and walk around every day.

Speaker 2 They still can see the sunshine differently than me, but that's really inspiring. And when my day was really bad, like, it's nothing compared to what they've had.

Speaker 2 And I think there is that connection that sometimes people feel in this. So I think it's a bit of all of it.
I think it's storytelling.

Speaker 2 I think it's, it's sometimes it's great to look from the outside to this thing you never want to be part of, but still you're interested in it. And it's a way to kind of be that viewer from afar.

Speaker 3 Sort of like try to figure out how their brains work or how this could have happened or something.

Speaker 2 Look, as a prosecutor, I still, I will never understand what people, some people are able to do to other human beings. And I've seen it.
Gosh, I really think I've almost seen it all.

Speaker 2 But it still is something that if we got to that answer, maybe we could help fix it a little bit. And it's certainly complex, and I don't know that we ever will, but it's,

Speaker 2 I have been doing this for decades and I still am fascinated by it. So I understand why people are as well.

Speaker 3 So as a prosecutor, do you ever prosecute someone who the general public thinks is innocent?

Speaker 2 I don't know about the general public, but certainly family members might believe in the

Speaker 2 innocence of a family member on trial. They may believe the system is rigged.
And sometimes I think because it's easier to handle it that way,

Speaker 2 there can be someone close to you that does something awful and you still love them. And so it's much easier to

Speaker 2 think that they just didn't do something.

Speaker 3 Did anything ever get into your hands as a prosecutor where they could be innocent?

Speaker 2 Yes. Okay.
I think that rarely, and I feel happy that I can answer that rarely in my experience, but it has happened.

Speaker 2 I mean, I can think of two cases off the top of my head that I handled that one that I looked at, I was like, this just doesn't feel right. And the more I looked at it, it wasn't right.

Speaker 2 So we dismissed the case, which is the beauty to me of being a prosecutor. You know, know,

Speaker 2 you have that power and that control to make those decisions. We're supposed to go for the truth wherever it leads.
You know, so many times there's this,

Speaker 2 I believe, this fallacy of that, you know, the prosecutor is all about convictions.

Speaker 2 Like, yes, I want a conviction in the case that I believe the person committed the crime, but I don't ever want it against someone that's innocent.

Speaker 2 Or even if they're guilty, that the evidence wasn't collected fairly, right? Because there has to be these checks and balances. But as a prosecutor, we have that control.

Speaker 2 And, you know, people have no idea how many cases have been dismissed or that we have said, no, we're not willing to prosecute those along the way.

Speaker 2 Sometimes because the person just didn't commit the crime and we can prove that. But probably the more

Speaker 2 the scenario that comes up more often is that when you look at the evidence, that it just wasn't collected in a way that was fair.

Speaker 2 And again, they are few and far between in my experience, even though that

Speaker 2 has not been portrayed publicly, certainly in the last years.

Speaker 2 But I'm coming out of New York City, which is a really big place. But I also understand not one size does not fit all and we there have been problems, so I am never gonna say they have not existed.

Speaker 2 And one is too many when you're coming to talking about someone's life, which is can be on the line. You know, you can go to jail for the rest of your life on these cases.

Speaker 2 And it's happened on many of mine. So yes, I have handled cases that people weren't sure.

Speaker 2 I have handled cases that to this day have been tortuous personally because people have come at me on social or in the papers because like families have been very savvy to the media and trying to say, well, my family member is innocent, so it must be the prosecutors that's dirty.

Speaker 2 Like tell me I made a mistake, maybe, because I'm human. Tell me I did something intentionally to railroad someone, never.
Like, nothing hurts worse.

Speaker 2 But that's the job I've taken on as a prosecutor, and I'm willing to defend those cases, like as long as it takes, because I believe in the evidence I put forth to the jury.

Speaker 2 So yes, I think it has happened. I don't think too often, I'm happy to say, but I have had, I've been empowered to make those decisions when they have.

Speaker 2 Like, I've never taken someone to trial that I didn't wholeheartedly believe committed the crime and that we had the evidence to prove it.

Speaker 3 So, how do you handle it when the media does have headlines or newspapers have headlines that are not in your favor?

Speaker 2 Do you put your head down? You put your head down. You put your head down.
And because that's not what we're supposed to be influenced by, I shouldn't care what the media says.

Speaker 2 I shouldn't care what other people do. And I say shouldn't because we all do.
Yeah. We do.
Like, it is human nature. You don't want people to say something bad about you.
It hurts.

Speaker 2 Or you don't want someone to say, well, that evidence evidence is a good thing. You're like, but I know it is.

Speaker 2 But I think the best way to handle that is to go into the courtroom and show it for what it is and then let a jury decide or let the judge decide. I do believe the truth rises to the top eventually.

Speaker 2 I really am one of those believers in life.

Speaker 2 There can be lots of hiccups and you can get pushed down along the way, but I believe in karma. You believe things come up.

Speaker 2 And I think that's just how I've handled it is I haven't been someone to come out really just not true, not true, not true. Like, let it speak for itself.

Speaker 2 Because I also think he who who duck protests too much sometimes is almost maybe more defensive than they should be. It's like, these cases are not personal.

Speaker 2 Like, I am doing them based on evidence that is brought to me that I've analyzed and believed to be just and fair. But that's it.
Like, I am the state.

Speaker 2 And what I mean by this is I'm a representative of the government at that time. And so I'm going in there not personally.
I don't care who's sitting in the chair.

Speaker 2 And what I mean by that is I'm there based on the evidence. I care what they did.
Right. And I care if the evidence has proven their guilt.
I don't want them to ever hurt somebody again. Right.

Speaker 2 But what they look like, what their name is, like what their background is, I don't care.

Speaker 2 That's why we're often we say the defendant because it is the role that person takes in the courtroom based on being accused of a crime.

Speaker 2 So I'm not so anti that person, even though I might be personally just

Speaker 2 beyond disgusted

Speaker 2 flabbergast, whatever that is of what they've done. Like that's not my role.
My role is to present the evidence.

Speaker 3 As a prosecutor, you cross-examine defendants?

Speaker 2 So much fun.

Speaker 3 I was hoping you'd say that I have been on a witness stand in several cases and I absolutely hate it on the witness side of it.

Speaker 3 But for you, do you have any like standout moments when you're cross-examining someone where you're like, I'll never forget this?

Speaker 2 Gosh, I feel like almost every trial you ever do, you don't forget because they're all hit you in a different way. But cross-examining a defendant is,

Speaker 2 we don't cross-examine as much as prosecutors as we do as defense attorneys because very often the defense doesn't present evidence because they don't have to, or the defendant doesn't take the stand because they don't have to.

Speaker 2 It's our burden. But when they do, it is like, okay, how can I now think on the fly? Because you don't really know what that person's going to say.

Speaker 2 You might think you do, and then hopefully show the lies where I believe them to be, not just like the way that I see it, but so the jury can get it.

Speaker 2 And very often, that's not in these Perry Mason moments. It's something that I can let her say to the jury, like, this may have gone by you, but when they said this, this is why this is no way true.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And this is all going to come together.
But there was, um, there was one case that I had that, gosh, I haven't thought about this one in so long.

Speaker 2 It was a robbery and a murder in a barbershop in Brooklyn. And

Speaker 2 one of the guys who owned it was killed along with his brother. And gosh, that was an awful case.
And the guys who had come in to do the robbery, I was trying one of them.

Speaker 2 And I just remember the phone records. I don't remember all the specifics, but I caught him in such a lie on the stand that it was one of those moments that everything just got quiet.

Speaker 2 And I was like, that's what it feels like when you watch it on TV. Yeah.
This really happens. That really does.

Speaker 3 That was the moment.

Speaker 2 It was. And I was like, gotcha.

Speaker 3 Cook, line, and sinker.

Speaker 2 But again, this is the evidence. And it just, I was able to kind of like just put it out in a way that he walked right into it.
And boom, I could throw the records in front of him.

Speaker 2 And there was nothing he could say.

Speaker 2 So that was, I mean, those are personally fun moments, but more often than not, you're just trying to corroborate your case, which is the things that they're not going to fight you on, but that help build the credibility of your witnesses and other things, and then poke little holes in what they're saying to then explain to the jury later

Speaker 2 why these are clearly false, and if they're telling a lie, why? It's because of the rest of the evidence against them.

Speaker 3 For those listening that don't know, can you explain what sustained and objection do and mean?

Speaker 2 So when there's a witness on the stand and the other side is listening, they're like, well, they can't say that. You can't ask that question.
They're not allowed to answer.

Speaker 2 So then it's objection, which means that we are saying to the judge, this question can't be asked or that answer can't be given.

Speaker 2 And then it is up to the judge, you know, not us, to say either sustained or overruled. Overruled says, too bad, they can still ask the question or they can get the answer.
Or sustained means

Speaker 2 the question stands. Yeah.
Or the question doesn't stand. Okay.
It doesn't stand. Or the answer doesn't stand and it is wiped from the record.

Speaker 3 do you think that that can still sway a jury if a question is asked and it is sustained

Speaker 3 sometimes because it's still heard

Speaker 2 yeah it depends right definitely like there is that idea like you can't um

Speaker 2 unring the bell yeah you heard the bell and if you're told ignore it but do they really ignore it so there is that and i definitely think there are lawyers who know that and think that like let me just get the question out and get it in the jury's mind and that's not what we're supposed to do but it does happen But you have to still believe, and I really believe in our jury system.

Speaker 2 I really do. I think most people are in there taking it pretty seriously and trying to follow the law as it's given to them.
That when they're told, we're not asking you to not be human.

Speaker 2 You heard it, but you can't use it. Okay.
You have to put it to the side. How do I hope that they do? How do I get on a jury? I don't know.
I've been asking myself that question forever.

Speaker 2 I'm never getting on a jury. You might have more luck, but as a prosecutor, they're never putting me on.
So it's not something you can sign up for.

Speaker 2 It is one of our civic duties that you, the government, the state that you're in, the city you live in, the town, they have, you know, just like they have rotor registrations, they will give you that envelope one day and say you're on jury duty and you are in the minority because most people are like, how do I get off?

Speaker 2 I don't want to be on the jury. But I like you, I would love to sit on a jury.
And I quite honestly think I would be fair. But maybe I understand why people say, we are never trusting you on a jury.

Speaker 2 You're a prosecutor for decades and that's all you talk about now. And is like, we're never letting you be on but I was like but I also want it to be fair so I'm gonna hold them to those

Speaker 3 the rules that I know but as a jury you can't use what you know you can only use what happens in the courtroom what the judge tells you but I feel like if you were on a jury you would be objective to the evidence right like you would follow the evidence and know

Speaker 2 I would. I really truly believe I would.

Speaker 2 But then there's the argument like, well, but because you know so much, maybe the jury will look to you, like to then follow what you're saying as opposed to relying on themselves, which isn't right either, right?

Speaker 2 Because they should go with their own opinion and how they see the evidence come together. So I do get it, but gosh, every time I am in there and like, can you be fair?

Speaker 2 I was like, I can, but I know I'm going to be out the door at the end of the day. They're never putting me on a criminal jury.

Speaker 3 Okay, so as a jury member, you know what the other jurors do for a living?

Speaker 2 Yes, unless it's an anonymous jury, which we're talking about this season on law and order, is certain cases when they have felt that there could be influence, that there shouldn't be, or potentially a threat, that it's an anonymous jury, that you don't know the backgrounds of the jurors because you want to ensure that they go home safely and that people can't approach them and try to influence or even worse, you know, hurt them.

Speaker 2 But usually you do. It's an open court that you do hear the background of people.
Right. Because the reason is you want to make sure people are fair, that they can come in there and keep an open mind.

Speaker 3 Can you give any insight to cases that may pull on your heartstrings more than another case or a time where you get like you've been super emotional?

Speaker 2 I'm like laughing because all of them. Yeah, of of course.

Speaker 2 People are like, you're so tough, but you cry.

Speaker 2 If you don't feel you shouldn't be in this line of work,

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 I can separate it, like I definitely can compartmentalize, but you can't do this for a long time if you can't.

Speaker 2 And while I have been told in many a personal argument, like stop cross-examining me because we're not in court, so my brain definitely works that way.

Speaker 2 These are human lives that we're dealing with. And I always talked about the toughest thing about being a prosecutor to me, but also one of the things that has made me care about as much as I do.

Speaker 2 And it usually came at some point during a trial, but maybe when I had a family member in my office, and there's just this moment, and it's often like there's no words expressed, but I see that pain in their eyes.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 gosh, I could cry nothing about, but it's like you can't put your fingers on it, and I maybe can't explain it, but I see such pain.

Speaker 2 And so, if there's something that I can do within the system to try to at least give them the justice they deserve in the courtroom, I can't take that pain away. I can't bring that person back.

Speaker 2 But if I can at least hold their hand through it in a way that they believe that I am working as hard as I can or now talking about it, that I am going to do my best to make sure that their loved one is remembered for who they were.

Speaker 2 And I don't care what walk of life they're from. Right.
Because Everyone has a mom. Everyone has someone that loves them.

Speaker 2 And whether, you know, they're the person that talks about like the quote-unquote innocent victim or the person that people might say, well, you know, but they were involved in these things that kind of led led them down.

Speaker 2 It's like, that all may be true, but something happened to them that shouldn't. But there is someone out there that loves them and there is someone that misses them.

Speaker 2 And if not, I feel for them all the more because then they're by themselves. So, and that's just something that I always look at in this line of work.

Speaker 2 That was the toughest thing, but the thing that draws me to it, like even now, when we do interviews for the podcast, whether it was law and order or even an added murder or whatever, like I just,

Speaker 2 there's times like I just, I won't talk to anyone for like like an hour after those interviews because I'm just so like in that headspace of how does that person have such strength?

Speaker 2 And they have shared this really dark place in a way that I have to remember that the next day I'm having a hard time. Like that is nothing compared to what that person goes through.

Speaker 2 And yet they are still able to be positive and optimistic and be there for others. And that really goes to the best that we all have in us as human beings.
And that to me is the balancing act.

Speaker 2 Like I deal with the worst homicide, the worst

Speaker 2 that is out there sometimes, but I've also seen the best as part of it.

Speaker 3 I can't even imagine some of the cases that you've probably seen, especially in New York. Like I just think about the things that I, I mean, you talked about ID channel.

Speaker 3 I've always watched ID channel. And I just, I guess I live in an alternate reality.

Speaker 3 I don't really know where it doesn't feel real, but you're living these cases every you were living the cases every single day and you're gonna live with them for the rest of your life.

Speaker 3 So I can't imagine what that would be like.

Speaker 2 But you know, we're all built for something.

Speaker 2 Like I always said, like, I could not be the nurse or the caretaker in a hospital because like even though I can look at crime scene photos and someone has died, like if I see someone like with a terrible cut, I just want to like fall down and pass out.

Speaker 2 Like I'm not built for that. But I'm glad that people are.
And this is what I'm built to do. Like I know it.
Like I was built to do this.

Speaker 2 And even though I got tired from being a prosecutor, when I mean, like, mentally tired, but you can't, but you have to be on your A-game, like, all the time. Every case deserves that.

Speaker 2 But there was nothing else I ever wanted to do. But when I started to talk about my own cases and then other cases, being in New York, you know, there's a lot of news stations here.

Speaker 2 I was like, huh, this is fun. I'm talking about what I know, but it's less pressure.
Right. Someone isn't going to go to jail or not based on what I do.

Speaker 2 It kind of presented itself. I was like, that maybe is going to to be the thing.
And I just had opportunity there. And so now to have

Speaker 2 reinvented myself professionally, but still in the same world, because it's what I talk about, like, I feel really lucky.

Speaker 2 And I love it that, I mean, everything I do has to do with criminal justice content.

Speaker 2 And to be able to talk now to people about the things I care about and the way that I want them to know the system, the good. And I'll talk about the bad because I think.

Speaker 2 transparency is the way to hopefully restore some faith or at least explain problems when they've happened.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's just pretty awesome to me. Yeah.
I can still be involved in it.

Speaker 3 No, I love that for you because, like you said, it's who you are. It's what you want to do.

Speaker 3 So being a prosecutor and just being in criminal justice, you have been in a mostly male-dominated industry, right? Like a male-dominated industry.

Speaker 3 How did you navigate that and how do you still navigate that?

Speaker 2 It's definitely changed over the years.

Speaker 2 I think, you know, they talk about this even in law school, you know, that it's so many more women are in it because I think women are starting to realize like we can be anything we want to be.

Speaker 2 But that certainly hasn't been the case of what little girls and women were taught in the past. And certainly, when I started as a prosecutor, it was still mostly male-dominated.

Speaker 2 And definitely in the police world, it was like when I had the homicide women detectives, I was like, this is great. Like, just right away, like,

Speaker 2 I'm in your camp.

Speaker 2 And I still feel that way. And, but by the time I left as a prosecutor, I think that we were at least 50%

Speaker 2 in the bureau. And I mean, they were some of the best attorneys in there.
They really were. So I think that

Speaker 2 times are changing. I won't say have changed because certainly when you look at many professions, men still make more than women and different things.

Speaker 2 But I also just think it's like, you know, create your own reality. And I think that's how I always looked at it.
I

Speaker 2 was treated fairly and as an equal by so many of like the men that I encountered. Sometimes I wasn't.

Speaker 2 And then I was like, all right, you want to think, because they'd be like, okay, blondie, like I'll be able to like, blondie, like, let's go into court and let's see what happens right because like you may not think like i look like a prosecutor i don't know what that means a homicide prosecutor which i was told very often i was like because i'm not a man in a suit um but i'm gonna go in there and do what i have learned to do with the evidence and i'm gonna prove it to this jury because this is what justice demands i hope right it's up to them uh i did have it judge I'll never forget, gosh, my first felony trial, which I did with my then supervisor, he just wouldn't talk to me or look at me.

Speaker 2 But I didn't think it was me because I was so nervous.

Speaker 2 in this case, wouldn't look at me. But I was like, okay, it's just me, and I'm a baby prosecutor.
And I realized he would only talk when my male counterpart would speak.

Speaker 2 And literally, I gave the summation because my boss let me.

Speaker 2 And he walked over to say, like, oh, that was like great, but to my boss, like, wouldn't say a word to me.

Speaker 2 And I just realized, I was like, you are one of those guys who just only thinks that like men are worth your time in the courtroom.

Speaker 2 But that's okay because, and I looked at that as I was fortunate in success and getting different promotions over the years or some bigger cases and more responsibility.

Speaker 2 I was like, that's how I showed him. Right.
It's just not letting him affect me. Like, it got me angry

Speaker 2 at the time. But I do think that has changed.
And most of the judges that I had were just really, just great. They didn't care if you were a man or a woman.

Speaker 2 They just wanted you to make sure that you knew how to do your job.

Speaker 2 And certainly my supervisors, like my mentor in the DA's office and also the then DA for most of my career, like they were fantastic.

Speaker 2 Like they just, like, the sky's the limit as far as they were concerned. If I could do the work, they would just give me whatever I could take.

Speaker 2 I'm so proud of you. I'm like, this is your whole life is incredible.

Speaker 3 Like this is, you're doing great work for just the community. And I can't even.

Speaker 2 But it's like, you know, we, we're, I'll always say like, you have to feel lucky and fortunate when you get what you want. And I feel like this, like, and for you, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, just think about it for a second.

Speaker 2 Like, if you ever thought, like, I don't even know how many years ago, 10, 20 years ago, whatever that was when you started, like, that you would be here now doing what you're doing with like all these companies and podcasts.

Speaker 2 It's not the same.

Speaker 2 But it is for you. And that's the thing is, like, we're built differently.
And I will say this because, again, like, I'm a research girl.

Speaker 2 I'm not coming here to sit and talk with you unless I know about you, which, and again, I knew who you were, but I'm doing research. And I really felt

Speaker 2 very proud of you

Speaker 2 for

Speaker 2 the success you have made for yourself. And I think prioritized your family, which is something you talk about, and also your own coming into yourself professionally.
And that's pretty awesome.

Speaker 2 And not everyone has that. Now, part of it is a gift that we're given by opportunity, but I also think it's

Speaker 2 knowing your own what you can do and not letting kind of the world push you down.

Speaker 2 So I just think like we're all built for different things, but you know, you could say the same thing, and I'll say it for you if you can't. That I just think that's how you have to feel.

Speaker 2 You should feel good every day. You're like, you're doing your thing at home and here and wherever else you're doing.
And that is to me the way that we empower women, we empower girls, people, right?

Speaker 2 Because I don't care, boy, girl, like, I don't care what you believe, who you are. Like, that is how kids should be brought up.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't care where you're from, whether life's been tougher for you, it's gonna be harder for you, but you can still get to where you want to if you just keep pushing forward.

Speaker 3 Was there any point, any time in your career, where you were like, This is it, I'm giving up, like, I can't do this.

Speaker 2 No,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 never felt that in what I did in the DA's office.

Speaker 2 I definitely had, like I said, like a case that, a particular case, if they really came at me for my integrity, like telling me publicly I had done things in a case that I had never done.

Speaker 2 Quite honestly, I should be in jail if I had done the things like, you know, tainted testimony,

Speaker 2 gotten people to lie to get someone convicted. Like, it's the worst thing you could ever say to a prosecutor.

Speaker 2 And for me, as a person, like, my integrity is like everything to me, because I think that that's just who we are as people.

Speaker 2 And it was hard. It was really personally hard.
But I also looked at it like, you know what?

Speaker 2 I'm here because of a role I took on and because I prosecuted a case where a teen was murdered and he was taken from his family and that was my job. And if they're going to come at me now,

Speaker 2 his family and his supporters, I know what the evidence said. And there was many other prosecutors and detectives that were involved obviously saw it too.
And the judges have upheld it.

Speaker 2 But that's really hard when someone comes at you personally

Speaker 2 and really hits at your integrity. But I don't think I always looked at it as like this stinks and it's rotten, but the truth rises to the top.

Speaker 2 And if that family can get up every day without their son, without their brother,

Speaker 2 I can get up there and defend the thing that I brought into that courtroom because I believe in the system and in the justice that it brought in that case.

Speaker 3 It's not just an attack on your career professionally. It was an attack on you as a person.
And so I could see why that would.

Speaker 2 But you got to just kind of push through it and believe in yourself because you know

Speaker 2 what you did or didn't do.

Speaker 3 You said being prepared is one of the best things you can do as a prosecutor. So knowing your case inside out.

Speaker 3 Were there ever times that you've been thrown for a loop and just like completely caught off guard?

Speaker 2 What case was I not thrown for a loop? Yeah, at some point. There's always a loop.

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 as well as

Speaker 2 there's no excuse to not know your case, to not know your file, but things happen because we are dealing with people and witnesses say things on the stand that you don't expect and pieces of paper come out of nowhere sometimes that the defense has, and is this true, is this not?

Speaker 2 Like, is it tainted? You have to figure it out. But that is part of thinking on your feet.

Speaker 2 You know, like when a witness all of a sudden says the defendant who committed the person who committed the crime is not in the courtroom and they just point to some random person in the audience.

Speaker 2 Like I've had cases start that way. I was like, okay, don't let them see you sweat and then figure this out when you walk out.

Speaker 2 And we did. And you still have to then say it to the jury.
You're like, look, this is kind of what happened. But you saw all this other evidence.
And it's up to you to decide.

Speaker 2 But here's why I am asking you to go with what was presented here, X, Y, and Z. So it definitely you can be thrown for a loop.
I think it happens all the time.

Speaker 2 And it's just knowing the rest of the evidence around you to hopefully think quickly on your feet to show it for what it is.

Speaker 3 I would not make a good prosecutor or witness in your cases, in any of your cases, just so you know.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you know, but you're the person that comes into my office every day as a witness and is like, well, I can't do this. I was like, were you there? Yes, I was.
Did you hear something? Yes.

Speaker 2 then you can do this because all you have to do is get up there and tell the truth. That's it.

Speaker 3 For a case like the Idaho IV and Brian Koberger, why would they ever allow, as a maybe you know, maybe you don't know, why would they ever allow that house that has evidence or a jury could have potentially walked through it to kind of set the scene of the crime?

Speaker 3 Why would they ever allow something like that to be destroyed?

Speaker 2 Happens all the time.

Speaker 2 First of all, jurors will rarely actually go to the scene. Like, it's rare that a jury will ever leave the courtroom, that they go to the crime scene as far as pictures or video or testimony.

Speaker 2 And once a crime scene is gone through and photographs are taken and evidence is collected, they are usually released to the owners, right?

Speaker 2 Because they have their bills to pay or someone lives in the house or something like that. And so

Speaker 2 you can't just start seizing properties and holding them for all time. Like I'm sure there must be some case somewhere where that's happened, but I

Speaker 2 don't know.

Speaker 2 But so rare, right? Like exactly that. I didn't know it was rare.

Speaker 3 As someone on the outside, I would assume that that is a normal thing to do would be to walk the jury through this. You know, if he killed, you know, four people.

Speaker 2 But here's the thing. But here's why, is because time has changed.

Speaker 2 And so let's say it's a year before an average murder case goes to trial, and it's normally nine months to a year, is things have changed. Like it's not the same as it was that day, very likely.

Speaker 2 You don't know if the lighting was the same or the weather was the same or now, you know, a wall fell down and it looks different, like all these things, where it is documented that day as it's found to be the most accurate representation of what was

Speaker 2 there at the time of the crime. And that is why that is usually the way the evidence is presented in court.
It's really pretty rare.

Speaker 2 Like in homicide in Brooklyn, when I think about it, like, yes, there was a few times that the jury was taken to a particular location that I could think about, but really pretty rare.

Speaker 3 Oh, interesting. I don't know why I always thought that it was like standard to walk them through the crime scene.
scene. Nope.
Interesting. Okay.

Speaker 3 So now that we're on the topic of, you know, high-profile cases, we know that the Menendez Brothers new evidence has been, I guess, presented or brought forth.

Speaker 3 What is your professional opinion on why the cases, the trial and then the second trial went the way they did?

Speaker 2 It's complicated. And again, I always caution as a prosecutor, like, I'm not there with all of it.
But that is a very

Speaker 2 complex, deep situation that has come up. And what I mean is, like, okay, did they

Speaker 2 kill for the money? Did they kill because they didn't like their parents? Did they kill because of abuse? And if it's because of abuse, what does that do to a child's brain to now become an adult? And

Speaker 2 all of these things have come up and been put out publicly on that case in particular.

Speaker 2 And I really think that has fed into the push at this point to see if there's a way that they can be exonerated which would get them out of prison. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I haven't followed it as much this time other than seeing the headlines obviously what's going on.

Speaker 2 I think I always felt very comfortable with the verdicts based on what I saw at the time back then, but

Speaker 2 I think that is what has propelled it to where it is today is people looking at this and not being sure, like, well, well, wait a second, is it more that they were abused

Speaker 2 or not? And I think that all feeds into it. I don't know.
To those people that have used what they've seen work for other people, which does happen.

Speaker 3 The abuse excuse? I think that was something that was highlighted for Leslie Abramson, something that she had done and was successful with in the past.

Speaker 3 And so then when she was hired for the Menendez Brothers, that was something that was maybe in the media or something.

Speaker 2 It's happened. I've lived it.
I've seen it. And while it is

Speaker 2 an actual valid defense in certain cases, and then it should be put forth, many that have put it forth is just because they've seen it work before. and it's not that.

Speaker 3 Do you think that if they do get exonerated, there will also be restitution? Is it restitution? Restitution?

Speaker 2 It could be restitution.

Speaker 2 There can also be civil cases that go after money, like basically civil handles money and criminal handles someone's liberty or restitution or some other way to right the wrong.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 3 Do you think that the Menendez Brothers case is similar in any way to Gypsy Rose?

Speaker 2 Now you've asked something that I don't know the answer to.

Speaker 2 Can you follow now?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I have

Speaker 2 more back in time.

Speaker 2 I think there is so much to those cases that I don't know you could say. I don't think you can paint it with the brush of being a a similar.
No, no, okay.

Speaker 2 I see some similarities. I'm not saying there aren't similar, yeah, yeah, right.
I just think it's very hard to say, well, that one's just like this one. Like, it makes them too cookie-cutter.

Speaker 2 I think they're just always these cases in particular, they're very complex. You know, there's one or two of them.

Speaker 2 So we could focus on certain things and say they're similar, and others that there aren't.

Speaker 3 Do you, how do you feel about sort of sensationalizing

Speaker 3 murderers and

Speaker 3 they become sort of like celebrities?

Speaker 2 I am absolutely against that. I

Speaker 2 think that I don't want to highlight the person who has committed the crime. I think certain people commit crime for the attention.
They like the attention.

Speaker 2 I don't want to give them an ounce of attention. I think that we should be focusing on the victims.
But I understand why people want to

Speaker 2 understand why people commit crimes. And I think that is why they focus on the defendants because it is interesting.

Speaker 2 Like I am interested in how someone's brain works because I don't want other people to do those same things. But I don't want to focus on them because they have taken too much from somebody else.

Speaker 2 Certainly, if we're talking about violent crime, so I'm really against it.

Speaker 2 There's just been this movement of like, no name, that they won't name, don't want the person named. And I am a proponent of that.
I mean, I know that's going too far.

Speaker 2 You have to be able to know who the person is, and people are going to be interested by it, but I don't want to give them more attention. They've taken enough from people.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 3 So if Menenda's brothers get exonerated, wouldn't support a TV show, maybe.

Speaker 2 Again,

Speaker 2 let's just,

Speaker 2 if we don't use them for a second, right? Because again, we don't, but if someone was truly innocent, then that's a different story. Okay.

Speaker 2 Then that's a person, they're not someone that has actually committed the crime. Then you absolutely want to know like everything about them and what happened to them.

Speaker 2 Because what an awful thing to happen to anyone.

Speaker 2 I think that's very different than if someone gets off but has committed the crime or gets away with something and then uses it to propel themselves forward. That's a different scenario to me.

Speaker 3 Have you ever watched the documentary Outcry with Greg Kelly? No. He was exonerated after he was innocent.

Speaker 2 And I...

Speaker 3 I got to meet him and he told his story and I thought it was really incredible. But he has told his story.
And,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 he lost a football scholarship to go play. He probably would have been drafted is my guess to the end or the NBA, drafted into the NFL, and he just never, everything was taken from him.

Speaker 3 And it actually makes me so sad to see someone like, I mean, I'm sure he's happy now and he has his family, but it makes me sad to see that someone, you know, like Gypsy Rose is having this TV show and like is on season two of this TV show.

Speaker 3 And Greg Kelly got a documentary and now his life is what his life is.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 But that's the scenario that we're saying, like, you know, and again, I don't know the case, but if someone was wrongly convicted and they're innocent, like, of course, you want to hear about that experience.

Speaker 2 It's like the least you can do

Speaker 2 for them. And of course, as I'm sitting here thinking, I was like, maybe this is an interesting topic for a future season of law and work.
Oh,

Speaker 3 just out here inspiring.

Speaker 2 Who knows? Who knows? We're always thinking because there's just so many different facets of the criminal justice. system,

Speaker 2 you know, and I think it's some of what we're talking about too, because these are questions that people have.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 3 So to wrap up this episode, I would love to play a little game of rapid fire. Uh-oh.

Speaker 2 I liked you until now.

Speaker 3 What are some of your top de-stressing techniques?

Speaker 2 Meditation. Okay, that's a good one.

Speaker 2 Okay. Getting lost in a book.
Oh, what are you reading?

Speaker 3 I'm a book girly.

Speaker 2 Right now I am reading... Gosh, I can show you.
Is Eleanor, it's a... Eleanor Oliphant.
Yes.

Speaker 3 Oh my gosh. I have this on my TBR.

Speaker 2 It's in my bag right now. It is so good.

Speaker 3 I've heard really good things about about it.

Speaker 2 It's so good. I'm about, gosh, I think I'm about a third of the way through.
And I, so I was an English major. I love books.
I love reading.

Speaker 2 I don't read nearly as much as I would like to because I'm so tired and I have like content going through my brain all the time with work. But I always love to read to go to sleep.
I love that.

Speaker 2 It's just that sometimes I only make it like two pages and I'm out. Yeah.
But this one, like the other night, like I worked till like midnight, 1 a.m.

Speaker 2 I was like, I've got to see what Eleanor is up to. Like, what happened? Like, what's going to happen with this guy? Yeah.

Speaker 2 But I love to get lost in someone else's story. Yeah.
I do read content about crime and, but more mystery than true crime because I think I live true crime. Okay.

Speaker 2 But I, but I'm still interested in these stories, but I just love seeing what people write about them. So to me, books and storytelling and television, which I, it's a great de-stressor for me.

Speaker 2 It's a great way to get lost. You know, I wanted to say running and that was the first, that's why I paused because I was going to say running, but I haven't been running.

Speaker 2 So I felt that I'm so fake if I say that.

Speaker 3 It's not fake. You're just busy.

Speaker 2 I used to run. I need to run again.
It was the best thing for my brainstorm. And I was like, that almost came out of my mouth, but I haven't put on my running shoes in a while.

Speaker 2 Well, maybe you can't say that.

Speaker 3 You'll do it after the podcast.

Speaker 2 After this one. You can just go for a run.
Yeah. Maybe.
Right.

Speaker 3 Actually, now that you bring up mystery, I have, did you ever follow the Dahlia case, a Black Dahlia? So I went, we were in L.A. last week, and I went to, I have my own theory.

Speaker 3 I think it's like the pretty common theory where the doctor unalived her. No, you don't know that.
No, no.

Speaker 2 I'm saying that you're knowing more right now. Oh, okay.

Speaker 2 The cases that aren't my own can start to meld into each other. Sure, sure.
Sure, sometimes. I was like, what?

Speaker 3 Well, I went down a little rabbit hole in LA and I went to just see what these

Speaker 3 locations were like. And so it was sort of a surreal, like eerie feeling, the mystery surrounding it.
What unsolved case keeps you up at night? Either yours or someone else's?

Speaker 2 None keep me up at night because I need to sleep. But But,

Speaker 2 gosh,

Speaker 2 it's cases in Brooklyn that

Speaker 2 I think all the unsolved that still sat in my office when I left, that I can still think about more during the day hours because there are still families out there that lost their loved one and the person that committed the crime or the people are still out there and there's been no justice.

Speaker 3 Have you had a case or cases that you feel like didn't get enough media attention and wish that they had gotten more attention, more eyes on them?

Speaker 2 It's hard for me to say because I've had a lot of cases that

Speaker 2 got a lot of attention. I mean, also every prosecutor, most of your cases don't get attention.
I'm certainly the same.

Speaker 2 And I always think that I want it for the families if they want it because their child is as important to the person who didn't. And I'll never forget, there's a case that I did, Ramona Moore,

Speaker 2 really horrific case. And we were were trying that case against the two that had abducted her and tortured her for days physically, sexually before they killed her.

Speaker 2 And there was a case next door to us that was just on fire with the media, another high-profile case. And I remember her saying, like,

Speaker 2 why not this case? Why not my daughter? Why isn't she getting that attention?

Speaker 2 And that's a really awful feeling, I'm sure, that, like, is it because someone doesn't think they matter as much? Or did it just not catch fire in the media the way that some do?

Speaker 2 So, I want all the cases to get attention in the media for that reason, because we shouldn't decide this one is more deserving than that one. But I do think a lot of it is the function of

Speaker 2 whatever the reporters get their hands on and then just kind of go with, that they just, there's so much out there and they don't see it. So, I think it's more of that

Speaker 2 that I've seen because I see that it hurts families when they feel that their case did not get the attention that it deserved.

Speaker 3 Right. Because I always wondered with, especially with Lacey Peterson, you know, why why did that one get as much attention as it did versus another one, maybe another pregnant woman, you know?

Speaker 2 But you know, also there's families that don't want the attention.

Speaker 2 I had a cousin that was murdered when I was nine and my aunt and uncle, like, they didn't attend the trial because they couldn't. Like, they couldn't face it.
And I was a prosecutor.

Speaker 2 That's not my experience. Most families do.
But the last thing they would have wanted was media attention. That was a high-profile case case at the time.

Speaker 2 But so I think it's whatever is better for the family is what I want for them. Sure.

Speaker 3 Could you give any advice to women embarking on their journey into law?

Speaker 2 Don't let anyone tell you no. I think that if you want something and if you see where you're supposed to go, even if you have one door closed, just go find the next one that might open.

Speaker 2 Just keep going. Keep going.

Speaker 3 And the last one is, what has been your favorite case to talk about so far on a show or a podcast?

Speaker 2 I can't answer that because all of them. And I really mean that because they're all so interesting to me.
And

Speaker 2 whether it's the one that seems a straightforward solve, I was like, but there's this cool piece of evidence or one that didn't work out the way that it was supposed to.

Speaker 2 I really, I couldn't.

Speaker 2 I couldn't say, like, I'll never call my own favorite case because then I'm almost picking one person over another since my world involves human beings and awful things that have happened to them.

Speaker 2 But I just think there's different pieces of different cases that I really love them all.

Speaker 3 What else can you share with the audience? Where can they find your podcast? Where can they find any shows or documentaries you've been on? Where can people find you on Instagram?

Speaker 2 Instagram, you know, as hard as my name is to say, Anna Sega Nikolazzi. It is harder to write, but if you just go with that and you start to type it in, it's going to come up.

Speaker 2 And, you know, actually, after this podcast, I can ask you for advice on that because I am awful at social. I love it to connect with people, but I just don't even know how to go about it.

Speaker 2 But I think it's such a great way for us to connect with other people. Law and Order, it is a co-production of partnership between iHeart and Wolf Entertainment.
It's on every Thursday.

Speaker 2 It's wherever you get your podcast. Obviously, on iHeart, you can also get it ad-free on iHeartPlus.

Speaker 2 Anatomy of Murder is on weekly.

Speaker 2 Every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcast, True Conviction is no longer a running series, but it's still on all sorts of platforms that you can still find it and look it up.

Speaker 2 And on social, as I can say, I'm not very good with it, but Instagram's the one I have the most luck with so far.

Speaker 2 And that's it. So that's here.
I'm always looking for the next thing. So it's figuring out where those things are.
But right now, it's the podcast and Law and Order. We're finishing this first season.

Speaker 2 But I really cannot highly recommend it enough. And that's not just because I'm the host, which, of course, I want you to listen to it for that too.

Speaker 2 But it really is looking at organized crime very differently than you might think. It's not the sopranos.
It's not the way that it has been.

Speaker 2 You know, there's not just the flash and the bling, which there is that too, but it is the perspective of the people that work these cases.

Speaker 2 The one that dropped today, like, it it is literally the accountants that cracked it. When I heard that, I was like, snooze, boring.
Why are we even going there? I swear.

Speaker 2 And then it's one of my favorites because it's so fascinating and different. But that is the truth of these cases.
The things that you don't hear about are sometimes the most interesting.

Speaker 2 And I was reminded of that as I was listening to the one that dropped just this week.

Speaker 2 So if you haven't listened to Lawn Order, go back to the beginning and also let us know what you think for future seasons.

Speaker 3 Yeah, go rate and review on the podcast apps. Thank you so much for coming on on.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thanks for having me.