Balancing Family, Trauma, and Writing with Jennifer Hartmann

Speaker 1 Extra value meals are back for just $5. Get a savory and sweet sausage, egg, and cheese McGriddles, plus hash browns and a coffee.
Only at McDonald's.

Speaker 2 For limited time only, prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher in Hawaii, Alaska, and California, and for delivery.

Speaker 3 As the holidays approach, get what you need to personalize your home with Wayfair. You guys know I love Wayfair.
I did my camper in Wayfair, the playroom, my living room, all of the things they have.

Speaker 3 Bedding, bath basics, kids' rooms, home decor, kitchen essentials, living room refresh, whatever you're looking for, they have it.

Speaker 3 And Wayfair's huge selection of home items in every single style makes it easy to find exactly what you're looking for.

Speaker 3 And if you're on a budget like I am these days, you can shop there with a budget in mind. There's something for every style in every home, no matter what your space or budget is.

Speaker 3 And they make it easy to tackle your home goals this holiday season with endless inspiration for every space. They do have easy and free delivery too, even on the big stuff.

Speaker 3 So no more huge delivery fees for furniture. You guys can get big things like sofas, dining tables, beds, desks, and more shipped for free.

Speaker 3 And you can find all of your seasonal must-haves from furniture and holiday decor to appliances and cookware all in one convenient place. Hosting just got a lot easier this year.

Speaker 3 Get organized, refreshed, and ready for the holidays for way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home.

Speaker 4 That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com.

Speaker 3 Wayfair, every style, every home.

Speaker 4 Welcome to the shit show. Things are going to get weird.

Speaker 4 It's your fave villain, Kale Wow.

Speaker 4 And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Speaker 4 All right, y'all. Welcome to an episode of Barely Famous.
Today I'm sitting with Jennifer Hartman and I'm super excited because I fell in love with her when I read Still Beating.

Speaker 4 And thank you so much for joining us on Barely Famous.

Speaker 5 Of course. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, I'm excited. And I'm so, you're so chill.
And I was so nervous about this that I was like,

Speaker 4 what if I come in and then I'm just like, because you're an author. Like I just,

Speaker 5 I've seen you on TV though. Like you're way more famous.

Speaker 4 But no, because you're an author. Like people read your books.
Like, I don't have any talents.

Speaker 5 You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 I feel the same way, though. So I'm equally nervous.

Speaker 4 Well, thank you. That makes me feel a lot better.

Speaker 4 So did you always want to be a writer?

Speaker 5 So I always wanted to write. I never actually believed that I could turn writing into a career.
So it was always just kind of a hobby and a pastime. Right.
I wrote poetry. I dabbled in fan fiction.

Speaker 5 That kind of really stirred my passion for writing.

Speaker 5 But I don't know, I settled down early. I had a family, three kids, and I was like, whatever, you know, I just have to make, you know, a living.

Speaker 5 And then what happened was COVID hit. And my husband was like, you used to love to write.
You should go back. to doing that.
I was like, I don't know.

Speaker 5 But I pulled up this like manuscript I had half written from like 10 years prior and I read it and I was like, ooh, just like that spark returned. And I was like, let's just do it.
It's now or never.

Speaker 5 We were both laid off.

Speaker 5 So I did it.

Speaker 5 And then it just i kept writing and i kept writing and still beating was later that same year and everything just kind of changed so i'm like wow that is so fascinating to me especially knowing that you just said that you had a family because i feel like the more kids i have the harder it is for me to write it is it is finding that time carving out the time is really difficult because you know kids and family are always priority but sometimes you just have to take it day by day like okay today

Speaker 5 you know, today I have to get this, this done. I have to get in, you know, a deadline.
My book is due.

Speaker 5 So you really just have to kind of prioritize and then just, you know, at the end of the day, be like, all right, now it's family time and you know, take care of that.

Speaker 4 So, so it works better for you to have like a deadline to work?

Speaker 5 You know what? It does. I absolutely hate it for myself

Speaker 5 because I get very stressed out and anxious about it. But I really do need a deadline because I'm such a procrastinator.
You know,

Speaker 5 I will put things off to the last minute, but with writing, I really can't do that. Okay.
Because it's such a culmination of time and days. So,

Speaker 5 yeah, I have deadlines really help me in the long.

Speaker 4 So I feel like, um, well, I guess too, if you're making it a career, you kind of have to work off deadlines because otherwise, how are you going to get anything done? Exactly.

Speaker 4 Where I'm like writing and it might take me two years and it might maybe be done.

Speaker 5 Sure. It's like whatever it works.

Speaker 4 Right, right.

Speaker 4 So prior to COVID and writing and, you know, making that your full-time thing, what was your career path before writing?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so I worked with animals. I worked at a veterinary hospital.
And yeah, I'm such an animal lover. You'll see dogs and cats and all those, you know, creatures and stuff in my books.

Speaker 5 So I always like to throw that in. But yeah, I worked at a vet hospital and it was like a boarding facility too.

Speaker 5 So I was there for 13 years and I really thought I was going to get into the veterinary field. But I'm very like empathetic.

Speaker 5 And so if a dog came in and they were just like sneezing funny, I would just break down.

Speaker 5 So I'm like, there's no way I could just be in there when, you know, dogs are sick or you have to put them down. So I really kind of questioned that.

Speaker 5 And I was just, I don't know, I think I was just kind of content where I was.

Speaker 5 I never really thought anything would, you know, take off beyond that. But

Speaker 5 yeah, I always have a soft spot for animals, but just wasn't the path for me.

Speaker 4 No, I get it. And also, I mean, I think even vets like closed down during COVID.

Speaker 5 I did. Yeah, I was laid off for my job and I had been there again like 13 years.
So it was, I was like, oh my gosh, what are we going to do? So like COVID is right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, no, for sure.

Speaker 4 So when you first published, you started writing during COVID and things like that, did you self-publish initially?

Speaker 5 I did. You did.
Yes. I did a lot of research into that.
So I got my book done first. It was called Aria.
And

Speaker 5 yeah, I just, everybody said Amazon, that's the way to go. So I just did that.
And I was like, all right, cool.

Speaker 5 Never thought anything would happen or take off just beyond maybe like, oh, 200 bucks a year, extra, who knows? And

Speaker 5 that ended up being a duet. And then I wrote another book that year.
And then I wrote Still Beating. And that published the very end of, I think, 2020.
And it took off almost like a month later.

Speaker 5 It was like January 2021. I was like, oh my God, what is happening? It just kind of like, it was right place, right time, I think.

Speaker 5 And it just hit that like Facebook algorithm with that dark romance really kind of taking off and the indie publishing really, you know, reaching new, new levels.

Speaker 5 And it's, yeah, like the rest is history. I don't even know what happened.
It's still very surreal.

Speaker 4 Well, I think during COVID was also a time where TikTok took off. It did.

Speaker 4 And it kind of moved from like the dancing scene to creators getting on there and trying to find, you know, a way to have an outlet during that time.

Speaker 4 Do you think that book talk also impacted?

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think book talk kind of carried it further. It kind of took it to that next level.
I think where it started was really like the Facebook groups. There was really

Speaker 5 a desire for dark romance at that time when I started writing. And I didn't go into it knowing that.
I kind of figured it out after. I was like, oh, this is perfect.
Like, I lucked out. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And just joined these groups and made connections and friends and everything. And yeah, what really kind of I think the trajectory kind of picked up was still beating was the cover.

Speaker 5 So my husband and I were photographers. Oh, that's so interesting.
It's the original cover. So it's not that cover.

Speaker 4 It's not this one? It's not.

Speaker 5 That's the new one with my publisher.

Speaker 5 So the first one was a picture of my husband and I. It looks like we're in an arm wrestling competition, but our arms are like chained together.

Speaker 4 I've seen that one. Yes.
That's you guys did that?

Speaker 5 We took that picture on just a tripod in our living room in our like 10 by 10 living room at the time. And my toddler was just like pulling on my fat legs, demanding chicken nuggets.

Speaker 5 And we're like, we have to get this picture and we took like a million and like we went through and it was the only one that would like turned out everything else was terrible I was like this is it this is it and it worked out and I did this little Facebook ad I don't know any I don't even do ads now I'm terrible at it but it just took off and it kind of

Speaker 5 I don't know it just projected the book into this another different level and I was not anticipating it and people I had a ton of pre-orders for it and

Speaker 5 Yeah, and then it just took off from there.

Speaker 4 Did it already have the synopsis on the back? It did.

Speaker 5 Okay. So people read, yeah, yeah, the blurb, and I think just the combination of things.

Speaker 5 And I did this before and after post of like me and my husband with a cell phone picture of our arms in our living room and then with the final cover.

Speaker 5 And people were just like, there's no way you did that. Like, because I don't know, it turned out pretty cool, though.
We just, we photoshopped the background. Yeah.

Speaker 5 You're in a basement and like, no, it's our living room. Yeah.

Speaker 4 That is so insane. That's really cool.
Yeah. But so with Amazon self-published,

Speaker 4 when you're kind of getting traction on your book,

Speaker 4 how are you notified on like

Speaker 4 how many orders there are? Like they tell you, yeah.

Speaker 5 So there's like you have this little, I call it like your back office, and there's little different tabs and it tells you, you know, like your sales for the day, and then you have like your pre-orders and it tells you how you're doing.

Speaker 5 And I'm like, I was a nobody, like no one knew who I was. I just started out.
So I was like, you know, obviously this is just hitting the right algorithm at the right time.

Speaker 4 And so that's so cool and fascinating.

Speaker 4 I can't wait to go tell Book Club that that's like your image because I've seen, and like I'm on Goodreads a lot and you see different variations of the cover and then in Book Club a lot of times we'll be like asking each other what cover do you have because you'll order something and then a different cover comes.

Speaker 4 Right. So it's so interesting.

Speaker 4 So can you can people still get the cover that you know?

Speaker 5 No, sadly no. Okay.
Who knows? Maybe that'll change someday. Yeah.
It really does.

Speaker 5 I feel like a lot of my readers are like, oh, it's so iconic. I need that cover.
Yeah. Maybe someday my publisher will re-release it with a special edition.
So we'll see.

Speaker 4 That's really exciting. So then obviously when we we get to it, we don't have to talk about it right now, but we know, I know, that it was picked up for a movie.

Speaker 4 So there'll probably be then another cover, right?

Speaker 5 Possibly. Possibly.
Yeah, there might. I mean, maybe they'll even kind of recreate that original cover.
That would be cool. That would be cool, right? Like the movie poster.

Speaker 4 So for people, for listeners who don't know what Still Beating is about, I mean, I fell in love with you. You're writing everything with that book.
So can we talk about what it's about?

Speaker 4 Because when I describe it to people,

Speaker 4 specifically my boyfriend, I said,

Speaker 4 you know, what would you do? And his jaw hit the floor. He's like, what the fuck are you reading? Yeah.
And I was like, my husband said the same thing.

Speaker 5 Like, what the fuck are you writing? What's wrong with you?

Speaker 4 Okay, so do you want to give the synopsis or you want me to give the synopsis?

Speaker 5 It doesn't matter either way.

Speaker 4 First of all, I didn't know it was romance. Like, I didn't know.
I'm sort of newish to just like being a book girly. Sure.
And so when I, I think this particular one says romance on the back.

Speaker 4 It might. It does.
Yeah. It just says not even dark romance.
Interesting. Yeah.
So I was like, and my friend,

Speaker 4 Kathy, shout out to Kathy. She kept texting me, have you read it yet? Have you read it yet? Are you reading it yet? And I'm like, I haven't gotten to it.

Speaker 4 Because you know, I don't know if you read a lot, but

Speaker 4 you have like your TBR, but then you continuously add to it. And so it shifts the way.
And I was like, I'll get to it. Finally got to it.

Speaker 4 And I was the only regret that I had was not reading it sooner. So

Speaker 4 yeah, can we talk about what it's about for anyone who might be interested?

Speaker 5 Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 5 So it's basically two enemies that have known each other for 15 years.

Speaker 5 He is engaged to her sister, and so it's a little bit forbidden. And anyway, they have not liked each other for the past 15 years.

Speaker 5 They get kidnapped by a serial killer called the matchmaker and they're trapped in this basement for three weeks and they have to rely on each other and work together if they want to survive.

Speaker 5 So we delve into what they experience in the basement, which is a little bit dark. There's a lot of triggers.

Speaker 5 And then we detail kind of the aftermath, their healing journey journey after going through something like that and finding love in hopeless places i guess you could say that's a really good way to put it hopeless places would be yeah and the forbidden situation

Speaker 4 um we actually got so i i have a book club online and we my neighbor who is a good just a good friend of ours too he listens to a lot of audiobooks and so he was like i want to get on in on this book club right and so we're like okay Don't read or listen to anything else.

Speaker 4 You have to start with still beating. And so he did.

Speaker 4 And so we did this whole episode with him about it because it was just one of those books that like your jaw hits the floor, you never pick it back up. Truly, it was fantastic.
So glad. So, so good.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 in your books, specifically Still Beating and Catch the Sun, I have not gotten to the other two yet.

Speaker 4 You kind of hit the ground running right off the bat when you opened the book. Did you do that on purpose to set you apart or was that kind of unintentional?

Speaker 5 You know what? When I was reading, I know that I really got invested in books when they kind of started off with that action and external plot kind of hitting you.

Speaker 5 And then it kind of took a breather and then you get the development and then you go back into it. So I really liked books that were like that, set up and structured like that.

Speaker 5 So still beating, I was like, all right, well, this is an opportunity where I can really just kind of like throw it at you right in the very beginning. Sometimes you need a little bit more setup.

Speaker 5 Yeah, so I went with it. And then with Catch the Sun, I didn't know how to do that at first.
And I was like, all right, let's just take a prologue.

Speaker 5 of a future scene and kind of set the stage where you're like, what is happening right now?

Speaker 5 And then we can kind of fall back and start over and go from the beginning. So, okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah. So, with that being said, for Catch the Sun and the

Speaker 4 deadlines that you sort of set for yourself, were you already contracted for Catch the Sun? I was. So, how does that work with like the creative process and your writing process?

Speaker 5 It's tricky. So, while deadlines are good for my motivation and to keep going,

Speaker 5 creativity is so fickle. And I'm such a mood writer, so it's really hard.

Speaker 5 And when I was writing Catch the Sun, actually, before I started writing it, I was actually in the middle of a different completely different book

Speaker 5 so I and I wasn't really feeling it I hit a wall and I just had this like epiphany moment one day I was listening to like some songs in the car and the song just like hit me and I just had this I don't know, this vision of a story for Catch the Sun.

Speaker 5 And I was like, oh my God. So I went home, I closed out the manuscript I was writing and I just started writing that book from scratch.

Speaker 5 And that's normally I need months to kind of like simmer in these ideas. And this was one that just, I just started writing it.

Speaker 5 So yeah, I was very lucky that the idea hit me because if I hadn't, I would have probably been struggling to the last minute to try to get this other book done. But yeah,

Speaker 5 you just kind of go with your gut. You know, if something's not hitting right and if something is, you just need to pivot and write what speaks to you.

Speaker 4 So how does that work with the publishing house then? Are they like, okay, we want you to go YA or we want you to go dark romance? Do they kind of give you a direction or not necessarily?

Speaker 5 Sometimes.

Speaker 5 So I had no intention of writing YA. And so I just wanted to write younger characters.
So I really just kind of fell into that with Catch the Sun and then they liked that.

Speaker 5 So they're like, well, why don't you try to write YA for your next book? I don't know if I'm really a YA writer. I enjoy.

Speaker 5 doing it, but I'm like, how many my tagline is kind of like, you know, it's more trauma-based. So I'm like, how much trauma can I put these like 17-year-olds through, you know? Yeah.
So

Speaker 5 the next book I'm writing, I'm like, well, it's going to be a little YA, but then I need to, I need to age them up a little. And they're totally fine with it.
They're like, write what speaks to you.

Speaker 5 You know, that's where the magic lies is like when you have that inspiration. So they're really cool and accommodating with it.

Speaker 4 So now that you are no longer self-publishing,

Speaker 4 do they know the success of Still Beating since you self-published that?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so they picked that one up. That was one of my first backlist books that they picked up and re-released it.
Okay.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And what is the idea behind these stunning covers? Because they're in no way, like, I would never, I don't read the backs of books before I read them.

Speaker 4 I want to be completely just caught off guard. I thought when you released this one, I was like, oh, I wonder if this is going to be like a, like no trauma.

Speaker 5 So wholesome, yeah. So wholesome, yeah.

Speaker 4 So what is the idea behind putting these like stunning covers on the books?

Speaker 5 I don't know. They gave me, they give me a lot of covers to choose from.
So they'll do some designs. I think Catch the Sun, we had like maybe 10 different designs that I could choose from.

Speaker 5 And then I narrow it down to a few and they test them with the readers. And whichever one wins, that's generally the one they go with.
Okay.

Speaker 5 But yeah, they're a little,

Speaker 5 kind of secretive. Like, you don't know what you're going to get when you see the covers.
Yeah. It's a mystery.

Speaker 4 But I mean, I love that. And also, I just think that they're so different than other covers, too, which is nice.
I will say that

Speaker 4 before I read this one, I was comparing the cover to still, not still beating, I was comparing the cover to Pretty Girls.

Speaker 5 I've heard that. Yes.
And I actually noticed that in the beginning when they were sending me, there was another one that looked very similar, and I was like, oh, I don't know, it's a little close.

Speaker 5 So we compromised with this one, but I still get that a lot that they are, they're kind of close. But

Speaker 4 I mean, this one's better.

Speaker 5 Oh, thank you.

Speaker 5 I haven't read the other one.

Speaker 4 I read Pretty Girls not that long ago. I mean, very, very different stories, too.
So there's not even similarities in the book. But I think The Locket, I just kept thinking

Speaker 4 because I had heard about this one after that I was like, oh, like,

Speaker 4 are they connected? I didn't know, but they're definitely not

Speaker 4 connected.

Speaker 4 Where did you get the concept for still beating? Oh, God.

Speaker 5 I probably had the little brain nugget

Speaker 5 much earlier than I should have. I was like, probably like in my mid-teens.
And

Speaker 5 it just, the idea came to me. And originally, I was going to have them as best friends.
So it was going to be like friends, still lovers.

Speaker 5 And then once I started writing it, I was like, oh, let's make them hate each other. This just hits different.
It's a little bit more juicy. So I changed it up.

Speaker 5 But I just, when I started writing the book, I was going to write it as this kind of twisted novella. Okay.

Speaker 5 Because the only idea I had had was the basement scene where there's just this kidnapper called the matchmaker where he kidnaps people and tries to make them fall in love before he.

Speaker 5 So I was like, all right, let's just keep it there. Let's never get them out of the basement.
It'll be really dark and terrible.

Speaker 5 And then I just got really invested in the characters and I'm like, I want to see how they make it through.

Speaker 5 And there's just something about, I don't know, you don't see that in a lot of romance novels, like dark romances,

Speaker 5 where you see the aftermath, where you see the healing journey. It's usually focused on the external plot and the action that happens and that, you know, what they're going through.

Speaker 4 So, well, I loved the development even after the fact because I think I would have been upset if I didn't know what happened. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 Yeah, that's how I felt too. I'm like, I need to know.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like, where are we going from here? So, when you were having the idea for Still Beating and you were a teen, did you ever get concerned with your own thoughts? Like, what am I you did?

Speaker 4 Absolutely. Were your friends and family? Like, that's a red flag.

Speaker 5 I never told them. Oh, you never told me? I was like a super sheltered child.

Speaker 5 So I was like, and I was like raised Catholic and everything. And I was like, I can never tell a soul about this.
I went to Catholic high school. I'm like, what is wrong with me?

Speaker 5 But I always just had this like interest in true crime and

Speaker 5 just kind of twisted things. I was watching Criminal Minds before I wrote that book.
And I was like, I just got this idea, like.

Speaker 5 a love story, like a criminal minds episode, but make it like twisted into a romance and give them a happily ever after in the end. So that was kind of the inspiration.

Speaker 4 I mean it definitely worked out i'm glad yeah no for sure so that being said once you finally started because you said that that was like when you were in your teens right when you finally put the pen to paper like you got on your computer did you share the idea for the book with your husband before it was published or or before you published it or did you give him like an idea after the fact oh my gosh has he read it He has, he's read a lot of it.

Speaker 5 So he's not really a reader, but he has. If I'm like, all right, can you read this part and make sure it's okay?

Speaker 5 I think he listened to like half the the book on audio and he knows he helps me plot He helps me brainstorm so he knows pretty much everything about my books, but he's just not really a reader like it's hard for him to you know stay focused on a book

Speaker 5 I think I told him a little bit and he was a little concerned for me, but rightly so. Yeah

Speaker 5 But it all worked out, so it's fine.

Speaker 4 Did you share it with any other peers like your idea? I did.

Speaker 5 So I actually had beta readers while I was writing it because I was going to write the book under a pen name. Okay.
There's no way I can put this.

Speaker 5 Like I can never make eye contact with anyone in real life if I put this under my name. Come on.

Speaker 5 But my beta raiders were like, no, it's good. You need to own it.
Like just do it. It's okay.
And so I did. And I'm glad I did.

Speaker 4 No, I'm so glad you did.

Speaker 4 I don't think I know of any authors that write under a pen name besides maybe like Christina Lauren, but that's two girls.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 4 Or two women, rather. Yeah.
So I don't, I can't think of any other pen names. But I'm glad that you put it under your name.
People love this. You want your name on that.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm proud of it. So what were people's reactions to your other books compared to Still Beating?

Speaker 5 Yeah, they went over pretty well. I didn't know what to expect.
Still Beating is still, I would say, my darkest book that I've written.

Speaker 5 And I followed it up with Lotus, which had a little bit of a nugget in Still Beating that, you know, you're like, oh, that's kind of interesting, hopefully.

Speaker 5 And then you want to read Lotus after that because that's his story. And that book is a little, it's not as dark.
It has a little bit more humor and lightness, I think.

Speaker 5 But they're still, I mean, they're still kidnapping. All my books have kidnapping, apparently.

Speaker 5 There's still like mystery and some darkness in there.

Speaker 5 But yeah, I don't, I don't know. I feel like my underlying just theme that carries through all my books is just kind of overcoming trauma.

Speaker 5 So they're all just very angsty emotional reads, some darker than others.

Speaker 5 But you kind of get the same, hopefully you get the same feeling when you're done.

Speaker 4 Like also people knowing that it's a Jennifer Hartman book.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think so. I think so.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 5 I first think so.

Speaker 4 Did you ever write from Earl's perspective?

Speaker 5 Oh my God, that's a good question. I don't think so.
I don't think he deserves a POV. And I don't know if I want to get in his head.
He was, yeah.

Speaker 5 So we do touch upon him more in The Stars Are On Our Side. So we get a little bit more of his backstory, which really interested me while I was writing Still Beating.

Speaker 5 I was like, what makes this guy tick? Like, because I don't like writing like just kind of like one-dimensional characters, and he was a little one-dimensional in that one.

Speaker 5 So I was like, let's kind of like pick him apart and see what makes him tick.

Speaker 5 So we delve into that a little bit in the stars are on our side. But getting into his head, I don't know.

Speaker 5 I don't think I'll ever do that. Maybe like a little bonus scene here and there

Speaker 5 in the future, but not a book for sure.

Speaker 4 Okay, not a book. Or maybe a novella, like the small.
No, maybe not.

Speaker 5 I don't know. We'll see.

Speaker 4 I think I agree with your decision that he doesn't deserve a POV. He doesn't deserve it.

Speaker 5 I agree.

Speaker 4 So are we allowed to talk about the movie? Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 4 Stillbeating was picked up for a major, a major motion picture. Yeah.
Do we know if it's a show or a movie? It's a movie. It's a movie.
That's so exciting.

Speaker 4 First of all, so were you, did you approach production or like outlets to make that happen or did they approach you?

Speaker 5 They approached approached me.

Speaker 5 So that was very exciting. I was not anticipating it.
I mean, it's that's always been my dream. Before I started writing books, I went to screenwriting school in community college.

Speaker 5 So I took a lot of courses and that's actually where I wanted to go

Speaker 5 if I could have done anything. But I um, so that's it was really like any of my books being a movie is just like the ultimate.

Speaker 5 So when they approached me about it, um, I actually tried to give them a different book at first because I didn't know, I thought maybe Still Leading would have been too dark.

Speaker 5 Like I was like, is this something that is gonna translate well to film? I don't know. But they felt very confident about it.
They gave me their ideas,

Speaker 5 different scenes, played them out, how they would do them. And I was 100% on board.
So I am very excited to see what they do.

Speaker 4 But what was that? First of all, who was the first person you called when you found out?

Speaker 5 My husband. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 4 And then what was that like just hearing that? I guess a literary agent or your team or whatever was like, hey,

Speaker 4 they want to do this meeting about this.

Speaker 5 It's so surreal. I never imagined this.
I'm just like this, like always been this kind of shy, introverted person.

Speaker 5 So just to be kind of thrown into like a movie deal, you know, it's just beyond my wildest dreams. And I'm very excited.

Speaker 4 So when I saw on, I think it was Instagram that it was going to be picked up into a major motion picture,

Speaker 4 immediately I DM'd you. And this is more for the listeners who don't know this.

Speaker 4 I immediately DM'd her and I said, I have these characters in mind for

Speaker 4 the movie. And I'm not going to say who they are because, in the the event that they are casted right

Speaker 4 I don't want to like spoil anything but I she you said those are the people that you picked literally the same like how out of the millions of people I was just blown away and it's so funny so then I'm scrolling and I I follow the characters that I have in mind on Instagram and I'm like it just further solidified me wanting them so I hope I hope my fingers are crossed I it would be amazing so how much involvement do you get in casting?

Speaker 5 Normally, I get a lot of involvement, which is kind of that's really what sealed the deal.

Speaker 5 Because I know if you just kind of like, hey, let's give my movie rights to Netflix, you kind of lose creative control and they take over.

Speaker 5 But with Passion Flicks, they really want the author to be involved, which is amazing. So, I will have a say in the casting.
I get to be on the set for the whole time.

Speaker 5 I get a say in the final script, and I can even give notes to the director.

Speaker 5 So, yeah, it's very exciting.

Speaker 4 So, you know, obviously, from being an author and also just like seeing the adaptations that some things have to be changed because you're going from a manuscript of three, four hundred pages to a smaller script, right?

Speaker 4 Like, will you get to kind of give approval on what changes you're willing to make?

Speaker 5 Yes. Okay, cool.
Yes. So they'll, yeah, I'll get final say in all that.
So if something just isn't feeling right or something, I'm like, I need to have this in there.

Speaker 5 It was really important to the story.

Speaker 5 Then I'll get to, you know, I'll get to have a say in that.

Speaker 4 So that's, that is, you're going to see your name on the credits.

Speaker 5 I can't even.

Speaker 4 That is, so is there a timeline? Like, do you know when it's set to go into production or whatever the case?

Speaker 5 I don't have details yet. Okay.
From what I've told, it might be sometime next year where we're going to start, maybe like during the summertime.

Speaker 5 It would be very cool to have like end of 2025 a release, but that might be wishful thinking. But we're going to

Speaker 5 maybe.

Speaker 4 I mean, and are you casting now? Not yet.

Speaker 5 Not yet.

Speaker 4 Okay, so I still have time to.

Speaker 5 You still have time.

Speaker 4 Okay, perfect. I'll start the acting classes now.
Absolutely. And then even if I am the barista at any point or I'm like just being

Speaker 5 perfect. Yeah.
Perfect. And I can't.
I'll have to. And he can just be like slinging drinks to the actors.

Speaker 4 Slinging drinks. White claws, specifically.
White claws. Perfect.

Speaker 4 Obviously, we're all seeing the drama kind of unfolding with some other movies that are book adaptations. Does that scare you at all? Of course.

Speaker 5 I am like, I'm a people pleaser and I'm very just like a positive, like I love positivity. I stay away from anything controversial or negative.
Right.

Speaker 5 And so just the thought, knowing that there's going to be,

Speaker 5 it's just, you know, you get it. It just comes with the industry.
There's no avoiding it. So, I just, I don't know, I might be hiding for a little while, but at the end of the day, it is what it is.

Speaker 5 And that's one of the biggest lessons I've had to learn. Probably the biggest growth is just knowing that not every, you can't please everybody.

Speaker 5 There's not a single person, you know, nobody is going to love it 100%. So, I don't look at reviews anymore.
I try to stay away from like all that stuff because it's just, I'm very sensitive.

Speaker 5 I'm very empathetic. So, I take all of it to heart.

Speaker 5 I'm like, well maybe i should just burn the book and pretend that it never existed but you know there's no there's always people that are gonna love it too and so i try to focus on that stuff like the people that message me they're like this book changed my life and you know those really positive things um i try to focus on that no absolutely reading comments and social media there's such a love-hate relationship and i think that goes for everyone not just influencers but people who run businesses or authors right um but i mean i would agree are you on goodreads do you read like ratings and reviews on there i used to i used to when i I first started out But it was really just kind of sucking my soul and I was like I'm never writing again and I'm like well that would be that would suck like I really want to keep writing So I do stay away now I haven't gone back since like it was my new year's resolution I think going into 2023 since then I've never looked back I've never gone aside from to just list my book on Goodreads I I have stayed away from it.

Speaker 5 It's a reader space, you know, and it's that's it is what it is, you know

Speaker 4 if if if it's clearing your your your mental well-being then I think that's for the best but so now that you are kind of doing the movie thing, are you writing anything new now?

Speaker 5 I am. I'm actually writing two different books right now.

Speaker 4 So, do you not like confuse the plots and the storylines?

Speaker 5 So, well, what happened was I started writing a book.

Speaker 5 I'm writing one with a co-writer, and it's actually going to be a little bit still being-ish because we're going to delve into kidnapping again, but try to put another twist on it.

Speaker 5 And so, that one's been really fun. We're really far into it.
We're like maybe 85% into the book or so.

Speaker 5 But then I have a deadline due for my publisher, and so so they want something completely different. So we are pausing that.
And I started that one. I'm like 40,000 words in.

Speaker 5 And that one's a little bit more contemporary romance. We have fake dating in there.
We have enemies to lovers.

Speaker 4 Wait, what's fake dating?

Speaker 5 That's where you pretend. They pretend that they're dating, but they're not.

Speaker 4 You know what? I just read a book like that. It was The Paradise Problem.
Okay.

Speaker 4 By Christina Lauren. Yes.
So I just read that one, I think, in June. And that was sort of like the vibe.
I'm still with the romance.

Speaker 4 Even though this is considered romance, I'm still new to like the tropes and things like that. That makes Okay, so this one is like enemies to lovers.
That would be fake dating.

Speaker 4 And then what was the other one that you said? Second chance. Second chance, maybe?

Speaker 5 Okay. I see that a lot too.
I like history. I like the characters having history before they like get together.
I don't know. It adds to the slow burn and the tension for me.
For sure.

Speaker 4 Which one? So is that one going to be more of like a slow burn?

Speaker 5 Oh, yeah. I think all of mine are slow burn.

Speaker 5 I don't know. I just slow burn.
Where?

Speaker 5 Maybe.

Speaker 5 In the romance part. Oh, oh, oh, oh.

Speaker 5 For the lovers to get together in the end. Still beating is probably my least slow burn, maybe,

Speaker 5 because you have that whole beginning part where they're kind of forced to like interact. I don't know what to say.

Speaker 4 Interactive.

Speaker 5 Interact. Yeah.
So, yeah.

Speaker 4 So, one of my questions was, actually, would you collab and what do you think that process would look like? So, how is that one different? How is collabing with, is she an author? Oh, she is.

Speaker 4 So, how is it collabing versus your own writing process when you're doing it by yourself?

Speaker 5 You know what? So, not only is she my co-author, but she's also my alpha reader and one of my best friends.

Speaker 5 So, she, I always give her my chapters as i'm writing them and she's like all right well this is what you need to change or this is what i like um so she and we have very similar tastes and very similar writing styles so i trust her 100 so i feel like if i were to do collaborations it would probably only be with her okay um honestly it's it's really hard otherwise you know for some of you don't know as well or if you're gonna mesh you never know until you're writing um because i really have like strong feelings about my characters when I'm writing it.

Speaker 5 I'm like, this has to go in this direction. And she's like the only one that I trust to be like, no, you're wrong.
And be like, okay, I guess you're right. So

Speaker 4 well, to

Speaker 4 that point, just like even going back into this conversation was like, you have a very specific writing style, I think.

Speaker 4 So it would be hard to kind of pick up with an author or just anyone that doesn't have even a similar writing style to you. That would probably create.

Speaker 5 some complications. That would be difficult, yeah.
I don't think the readers would feel it as much. You know, you're going to feel the disconnect a little bit.

Speaker 4 No, I love that. I'll be excited to read that one.
Do you have like, you don't have to share it, obviously, because it's not done yet, but do you have a title for that one yet? We do.

Speaker 4 Oh, that's exciting. So you're like really almost done.

Speaker 5 We are almost done.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's super exciting.
So are you reading anything right now? I know you're writing and I know you're doing the movie thing, but are you reading anything right now?

Speaker 5 So I actually just started Forth Wing and I'm super into the game and I don't usually read fantasy romance.

Speaker 5 But yeah, I'm like, I need to get on board with this one and I'm liking it so far.

Speaker 4 So wait, Iron Wing, is that Akatar? No, Akatar is different.

Speaker 5 Yeah, no, this is Rebecca Yarrows.

Speaker 5 So yeah, it's Iron Flame was the second one, I think, and then Fourth Wing was the first book. So

Speaker 4 those are going to be movies too, I think, right? Oh, I'm sure.

Speaker 5 I'm sure they are. They're so popular.
Um, and it's super good so far. It's like it has, there's not a person I've met that has not liked it.
So, I'm like, oh, this is great.

Speaker 4 The staff at my kids' school talk about like book club, and like, now, like, people are hosting book club at like their businesses and stuff, which is so funny.

Speaker 4 And one of them was Fourth Wing, like they were like trying to get me to, but my TBR is so long, so long. But I just, how do you commit to what you're reading? You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 And I'm such a mood reader. I have, like, everyone's like, oh, do you DNF books? I'm like, I do all the time, unfortunately.
Do you? I do. Oh my gosh.
I just, I don't have, I'm a slow reader.

Speaker 5 I don't have a ton of time to read. So I'm like, I usually know within the first like 10% if I'm like connecting.
Okay. So, and then I'll just, maybe I'll try again later.
But yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 5 I've only read like 20 books this year, and I'm so sad about that. Like last year, I read, I think, like 50 50 or 60.
Okay.

Speaker 5 But I'm just, I'm so picky. I'm so picky reading.

Speaker 4 I have commitment issues in life and with books.

Speaker 4 So I have never DNF'd a book and I get mad at myself every time I don't DNF a book that I hated because it's like I could be spending time reading something I love. Right.

Speaker 4 But there are closure.

Speaker 5 I get it. I get it.

Speaker 4 Because I'm like, what if I missed out on something?

Speaker 4 Like what if this truly was or I get really upset about the books that I'm like eating up until the very end and then you're like the ending ruined it so much. I hate that.

Speaker 4 And then I'm like, it's not fair for me to like give them a bad rating on Goodreads because you're like, okay, I ate this up, this one book. I don't want to slam anybody, but ate it up one day.

Speaker 4 Loved it. And then the last 15%, I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, are you, like, I loved this and I was ready to go to bat for you.

Speaker 4 And then you let me down.

Speaker 5 I know. Yeah.
It's such an emotional experience.

Speaker 4 It is. It is.
And reading is so subjective. So like other people will be like, well, I'm still giving it a five star because it's so good all the way until the end.
Until, yeah.

Speaker 4 So, it's like, I don't know, I'll feel like a three, like a three, three stars. Because it's like, I loved it until I didn't.
Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah. Okay, so favorite authors.

Speaker 4 Do you have any favorite authors to read? I have so many favorite authors.

Speaker 5 You do? Yes. I love so.
My co-author, Shelly St. Clair, she has one standalone and it's one of my favorite books of all time.

Speaker 4 What is it? So I can read it.

Speaker 5 It's called The Bayou Never Tells.

Speaker 4 Okay, let me go add it to my Goodreads before you forget.

Speaker 5 Yes, it's like the Louisiana Bayou. It's like this like

Speaker 5 city.

Speaker 5 It's just like a southern, kind of a southern hero. What is is it called? The bayou never tells.

Speaker 4 Can you spell that?

Speaker 5 Yeah, B-A-Y-O-U.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 5 Never tells, yeah.

Speaker 4 What is a bayou?

Speaker 5 It's like a swamp, kind of. Oh,

Speaker 5 southern swamp, I guess. There's alligators and stuff.

Speaker 4 Oh, I just saw an alligator for the first time in the wild.

Speaker 4 I went to South Carolina a couple weeks ago. Oh, wait, this, did you have anything to do with this cover?

Speaker 5 My husband made it. Actually, I knew it.

Speaker 4 Like, you could just tell. It's stunning.

Speaker 5 Thank you.

Speaker 4 It looks so good. Okay, so I just clicked one to read.
Oh, it's rated really well, too.

Speaker 5 It's very good. It's very good.
It's a romance, but she is good at adding in like those other external factors and action and

Speaker 5 like suspense and all that. Okay.
It's very good.

Speaker 5 Otherwise, I love, I love Colleen Hoover. I love her.
She was one of the first authors I read when I started writing. And then Julie Ann.
Okay. Great.
Pam Godwin, Mia Sheridan.

Speaker 4 I just read Mia Sheridan. I read Archer's Voice.
Yes. And then I also read,

Speaker 4 that was, I read Archer's Archer's Voice kind of early on into my reading journey.

Speaker 4 I'm not, I did rate it five stars, but I'm definitely not like a, like a romance girly. Okay.
I'm like a dark girly. I gotcha.
I like the twists and the turns and the trauma.

Speaker 4 I think that there's just something. And I have tabs in here.
Like

Speaker 4 you couldn't have convinced me that I would have related to anything. And like, this is so dark and twisted, but I have tabs where I related.
I'm so glad. That's, but like, in a book like this,

Speaker 4 I mean, we shouldn't be, but

Speaker 4 yeah, Cora. Also, you picked great names for the characters, but yeah, I have three.

Speaker 4 This was like the relationships.

Speaker 4 I don't want to call it trauma. Relationship

Speaker 5 healing. The overcome.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that was like the stuff that I tabbed that I related to a lot.

Speaker 5 You know, it's funny because, like, when people find out I'm a romance author, they're like, oh my God, you write romance for a living. Like, do you have any relationship advice?

Speaker 5 And I'm like, have you read my books?

Speaker 4 You're like, absolutely not.

Speaker 5 Like, maybe like overcoming kidnapping, like love after kidnapping. Like, it could help you there, maybe.

Speaker 4 You have kids. Yes.
What is their, how old? Are they young? Are they older?

Speaker 5 So one is almost 15. And then I have a 12-year-old and a six-year-old.

Speaker 4 What are the older kids' reactions to you being an author? And then

Speaker 4 do they read, they don't read your books? No. Okay, yeah, they can't.

Speaker 5 Absolutely not. Yeah, no.
Luckily, my oldest, my daughter, she's not really much of a reader. Her friends are, though.
And her friends are like, oh, like your new, your mom's new book is YA.

Speaker 5 I'm reading it. I'm like, no.
I'm like, yeah. And my daughter's like, she's like, I'll never read your books, mom.
Don't worry. I'm like, well, maybe when I'm dead, you can read.
But until then, no.

Speaker 5 But no, she's super, super positive and supportive. All my kids are.
They're very excited about it. I think it really hit the first time they saw my books in like Target.

Speaker 5 They went to Target and they're like, oh my God, this is Target. And my mom's book is there.
Yeah. So up until then, it's almost just like, oh, I don't know.
It's just on Amazon.

Speaker 5 You know, it's kind of a disconnect.

Speaker 5 But yeah, once they started seeing them in stores, it was really like, whoa, holy crap. Like, this is real.
It's so cool. Yeah.

Speaker 4 So do they know about the movie? They do. And what do they think about that? Yeah.

Speaker 5 they're very excited. Yeah, so the production company Passion Flakes had actually come to our house to film this little like TV show that's going to be airing, I think, soon.
Okay.

Speaker 5 Um, where they just did, like, it's called Tosca Talks, and it's basically just like a day in the life of the author. So, they got to experience that.

Speaker 5 It was almost like our house was turned into a little movie set. Yeah, um, so they were like, that was really, I think, when it just sunk in.
Like, oh my gosh, this is like we're on TV right now.

Speaker 5 So, yeah, it's been pretty cool.

Speaker 4 That is so awesome. I'm so happy for you, and I feel like this is going to be huge.
I hope that they also adapt the others. Thanks.
That would be incredible.

Speaker 4 But so, your other two books that you're working on, do you have timelines for when they'll be released?

Speaker 5 Kind of. So, I think my like the fake dating book that I'm writing for my publisher, I believe that's next summer.
Okay. And then the other one that Dark co-write is in limbo.

Speaker 5 We don't know if it's going to be independently published or with the publisher. It's just kind of in transition right now.
So we'll see. I'm not sure.
Two books will be released next year.

Speaker 5 I think for sure. We just don't know what order.
So.

Speaker 4 Do you ever see yourself like, I know that there's another author that I have in mind that just kind of releases multiple books a year. Do you ever see yourself doing that?

Speaker 5 So, I feel like I would be happy with like two to three books a year. Okay.

Speaker 5 I, the very first year I started writing in 2020, I think I wrote five books that year. Wow.
I just was like, so gung-ho. I'm like, let's just do this.
But I don't know.

Speaker 5 I think the longer you go on, the more like imposter syndrome sets in, the more you overthink, you have expectation, like reader expectation.

Speaker 5 So it's harder. It takes a little bit longer to get the whole story down.
So, I think, yeah, I think like two to three books a year is probably, you know, what I'll go for.

Speaker 4 How do you decide as an author what that balance is? Like, it's just whatever feels right?

Speaker 5 It is just a feeling, yeah. It's um, if I'm not feeling 100% confident with the story or the direction, or I'm disconnected, I have to put it aside and either just start over.

Speaker 5 Um, one of my recent releases called Older, I published that independently. I think I wrote that, like, I rewrote it three different times, and that's a burst for me.

Speaker 5 It was just this like forbidden age gap story. And just to get that right where it's not icky, I guess, it was really, it was a struggle for me.

Speaker 5 So, I just had to kind of go back to square one multiple times until I got it right. And, um, it's really intuition-based writing for me.

Speaker 5 I really work well just trusting my gut with stories and knowing that everyone will love it. But if I'm happy with it, I feel like you know, it's okay at that point.

Speaker 4 What's the title of that one? Because I also, it's gonna sound, I feel weird saying that I love books like this, but like

Speaker 4 My Dark Vanessa or like Tampa. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Have you heard of them?

Speaker 5 I've heard of My Dark Vanessa.

Speaker 4 Okay, so like books like that, like I'm fascinated.

Speaker 4 I don't want to say I

Speaker 4 it's so weird to like when I talk to Colleen Hoover, it's like so, it feels so fucked up to say I love it because it's so dark and twisted, like for verity. Very.

Speaker 5 Did you read that one? Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 Devoured it. How do you sit there and say, oh, I love this, but it's like so fucked up? Right.
So it's the same kind of thing for like My Dark Vanessa or like Tampa, like those types of vibes.

Speaker 4 So is it, what is it?

Speaker 5 did you already publish that one yes it's called older older yes and it takes place in the 90s so i'm a 90s girl i mean i was born in the 80s but like 90s was my vibe i love it um so yeah i it's it's an older guy it's like a 17 year age gap but with me i have to have it like it has to be meaningful there has to be development uh and depth so i can't just write a superficial like oh let's just like all fall into bed together it's totally fine um there has to be a buildup so yeah yeah it took a little bit longer to get there for me with that one but it was fun it was something different i wanted to challenge myself For sure.

Speaker 4 So, I will be definitely, is that still available to order?

Speaker 5 Okay. That one's just on Amazon.
It will be picked up with my publisher, I think, next year. Okay.
So, but

Speaker 5 you have a cover though, which is cool.

Speaker 4 You should have

Speaker 5 covers, but yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, maybe they could talk to my publisher because I would love to change my covers. That would be fantastic.
So, those are all the questions I have for podcasts.

Speaker 4 I have a few more for Book Club, if you don't mind. Absolutely.
Where can people find you and where can people order your books?

Speaker 5 So, you can order my books. So, a lot of them are, pretty much all of them are on Amazon, but otherwise some are on different platforms.

Speaker 5 The ones that are picked up through my publisher, Bloom, that's still beating, Catch the Sun, Lotus, and

Speaker 5 June 1st. Those you can find on Barnes ⁇ Noble.
You can find at Target, Walmart, a lot of local retailers.

Speaker 5 But yeah, otherwise Amazon.

Speaker 4 And then where can people find your socials?

Speaker 5 So Amazon I'm probably most active on, and that's author.jenniferhartman. I am on TikTok, but I'm one of those people that'll post like 10 videos in a row, and then I'll disappear for nine months.

Speaker 5 Okay. And then I'll come back and do it again.
I love that.

Speaker 5 I don't even know my handle. It's like Jennifer.Hartman, author.

Speaker 4 I'll tag her.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 4 For anyone listening, when I post this, I will also put it in the description of this episode and then I'll tag her on social media so you guys can go find her. Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker 4 I'm Barely Famous. Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 I love being here. Yes.

Speaker 4 If you guys want to hear more about Still Beating and Jennifer Hartman, you can head over to my Patreon and join Book Club. We will be discussing more questions with Jennifer Hartman.

Speaker 6 At Grocery Outlet, we are turning up the cheer with your chance to win free groceries for a year. That's $6,000 in Grocery Outlet gift cards.

Speaker 6 From October through December, one lucky winner will score the grand prize each month. Plus, four more monthly winners get a $500 gift card.
Make your holiday shopping pay off.

Speaker 6 Download the Grocery Outlet app and scan your wow card every time you shop for your chance to win free groceries for a year. No purchase necessary, one entry per day.
Restrictions apply.

Speaker 6 Visit groceryoutlet.com for details.

Speaker 7 Grocery Outlet Bargain Market.

Speaker 8 November is all about gathering. Friends giving feasts, Thanksgiving dinners, and football weekends.

Speaker 8 Total One and More has everything you need for your table and your toast, with thousands of wines, spirits, and beers at the lowest prices.

Speaker 8 From bold reds to sparklers, you'll find the perfect wines to raise a glass this season.

Speaker 8 And when it comes to spirits, Total Wine has you covered from smooth bourbons and tequilas to all the essentials for your holiday cocktails.

Speaker 8 Hosting Thanksgiving, Total Wine's guides make it easy by taking out the guesswork.

Speaker 8 With the lowest prices for over 30 years, you'll always find what you love and love what you find only at Total Wine and More. Curbside pickup and delivery available in most areas.

Speaker 8 See TotalWine.com for details. Spirits not sold in Virginia and North Carolina.
Drink responsibly. B21.

Speaker 9 You're ready for the holidays. The turkey's been going since this morning.
The sides are perfectly seasoned. The out-of-towners have a bed, couch, or futon to crash on for the night.

Speaker 9 All that's left to take care of is your peace of mind. That's why ADT is here.
With their professionally installed home security systems, you get protection that helps you feel safe.

Speaker 9 So you can focus on that pie you forgot to bake. When every second counts, count on ADT.
Visit ADT.com to find out more.

Speaker 7 Did you know that parents rank teaching financial literacy as the toughest life skill? That's where Greenlight comes in, the debit card and money app made for families.

Speaker 7 With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores, automate allowance, and track spending with real-time notifications. Kids learn how to earn, save, and spend responsibly.

Speaker 7 While parents have peace of mind, knowing smart money habits are being built with guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk-Free today at greenlight.com/slash wondery.

Speaker 7 That's greenlight.com/slash wondery.