Surviving Weinstein: Kaja Sokola’s Story of Strength

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Speaker 10 Welcome to the shit show. Things are going to get weird.

Speaker 10 It's your fae villain, Kale Lower.

Speaker 10 And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Speaker 10 Today's guest is Kaya Sokola, a former model, clinical psychologist, and one of the brave voices who came forward against Harvey Weinstein.

Speaker 10 She has since dedicated her life to mental health advocacy, using her experience and training to support survivors of trauma and abuse. We're honored to have her here and share her story and insight.

Speaker 10 All right, Kaya, thank you so much for joining us on Barely Famous Podcast.

Speaker 3 Thank you for having me.

Speaker 10 You have a very powerful story to share. And for those who are not familiar with it,

Speaker 10 you came over here from Poland to pursue modeling and acting is that right?

Speaker 3 Yes yes well my dream was always acting modeling you know I started working when I was 14 and it happened very fast I did not love this industry but you know

Speaker 3 I was working. I had a good agency, so I was working.
But when I was 16, I came here for the first time

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 really wanted to proceed in acting.

Speaker 10 Did your family come with you over here?

Speaker 3 No. You were here by yourself? I was here by myself completely.

Speaker 10 So what was that like?

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 right now when I look at kids that are 15, because I started traveling by myself when I was 15.

Speaker 3 It's scary because 15 is still a kid, right? It's very young. And

Speaker 3 so I just took it as something that came naturally. And, you know, I was supposed to do that.

Speaker 3 I was a good student and I was pretty obedient when it comes to instructions that I was getting.

Speaker 3 But you know back then we had to still use paper mops.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 3 It was hard.

Speaker 10 I'm sure it was challenging.

Speaker 3 It was very challenging and you know just like taking care of what you eat to have you know managing food, managing sleep, everything by yourselves.

Speaker 3 It was definitely like a jump on the deep water but did your agency help you with that and where would you how did you live over here at 15 16 years old with no family in the model's apartment what yeah four girls um at you know the tiny space probably like one-third of this

Speaker 3 and um there was supposed to be a supervisor okay but basically it was just you know a free-for-all yeah okay and then so how did you end up meeting harvey then?

Speaker 10 Because obviously you were 15, 16 years old and he's what, in his 50s. Yeah.
So how did you come across him?

Speaker 3 He came across me actually. It was, I went for like a modeling dinner where promoters invite, you know, girls.
And that's how naive I was. I was

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 shocked and so

Speaker 3 thankful for inviting me for a dinner because it's, you know, it's free food and a great restaurant. And I kept on thinking, like, what are these people getting from

Speaker 3 inviting models to dinners? And obviously, it's just kind of a pimping out girls or that promoting the club. I mean,

Speaker 3 I would call it that right now. Right.
You know. But for what, though?

Speaker 3 There are, you know, when there are pretty young girls in the clubs or in the restaurants, a lot of wealthy men are coming in hopes of meeting someone, meeting a soulmate. I'm kidding.
But yeah,

Speaker 3 that's how it works.

Speaker 10 So he was invited then to the dinner?

Speaker 3 He was there. He was, yeah, he was there.

Speaker 3 So Butter had a restaurant on top and then like a small club

Speaker 3 downstairs. So after the dinner, I went downstairs

Speaker 3 and there he was.

Speaker 10 Did you guys hit it off right away, like friendly?

Speaker 3 I mean, it's, you know, I was extremely happy when I met him and when he said that

Speaker 3 he's a producer and that he sees potential in me and that I look like an actress. How do actresses look like actually?

Speaker 3 They are like unicorns. You can see one, you can spot it.

Speaker 3 But yeah, so

Speaker 3 at the moment, I of course believed him and I did not had any fear of men like that because I've never experienced I mean I had a great relationship with my dad and he was he was like a role model he would you know and he was always very respectful to women to my mom

Speaker 3 and so you know

Speaker 3 it really did not cross my mind that this man can be any any

Speaker 3 any kind of can bring any kind of danger into my life right also you know

Speaker 3 In modeling agents, I had agents that were men, I had agents that were women, and I never experienced anything bad from them either. So I, you know, I thought, okay, that's like another

Speaker 3 kind of like an agent, producer agent, it's the same, same thing.

Speaker 10 So you developed like a working relationship at that point?

Speaker 3 I did. I didn't.
You can't call that

Speaker 3 a working relationship. So a few days after we met, he invited me for lunch.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 again, I didn't, you know, I didn't see this as something unusual. I thought, you know, a lunch, it's, you know, in the middle of the day, what can go wrong? Right.

Speaker 3 We're going to go to a restaurant, that's what he said. But

Speaker 3 when I got into the car, there was a driver in the car.

Speaker 3 He was on the phone for a little bit, and then he seemed kind of like upset or stressed.

Speaker 3 And he said that he doesn't have time for lunch, so we're just going to talk.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 right now when I'm hearing myself, it's kind of like, my God, this was such a cliche example of how a day rape looks like.

Speaker 3 But again,

Speaker 3 I didn't have fear in me until we got to the elevator that was taking us to his apartment. Then I got very uncomfortable, obviously.

Speaker 3 But he didn't, you know, he didn't talk much.

Speaker 3 And yes, and then he sexually assaulted me in the apartment, knowing that I'm 16 years old, which for me, this itself, it's just so creepy and disgusting. And

Speaker 3 I'm just going to jump forward a little bit.

Speaker 3 I remember when he was saying,

Speaker 3 when he was talking to the press during this trial, the criminal trial. And Harvey was apologizing to his family, to his wife, to his kids.
He was saying that

Speaker 3 he did immoral things but never anything um criminal well you know what how assaulting a 16-year-old girl

Speaker 3 you can call immoral but not criminal and he didn't even apologize to any of his um victims which to me it's uh like it's another level of narcissistic

Speaker 3 psychosis.

Speaker 10 It's a son, it feels like another crime, right? Like you're you're apologizing to everyone except for the people that you did, you traumatized.

Speaker 10 Have you connected with the other victims at all?

Speaker 3 I spoke to Jessica. Jessica is really amazing.
Tarala, Tarala speaks to Cassie. So

Speaker 3 I feel like we are getting, you know,

Speaker 3 it's kind of like a tiny community, you can maybe say

Speaker 3 of women. Because

Speaker 3 I mean, I don't think that anyone can really truly understand what it feels like

Speaker 3 to, you know, go through trial,

Speaker 3 go, you know, open up the wounds and publicly speak about, you know, the biggest traumas of your life if they didn't go through it. So that's why

Speaker 3 Tarala was extremely helpful.

Speaker 3 She was there during the first trial in 2020 as a Molino witness. So, you know, talking to her really helped me to kind of ease into this whole process of trial and the aftermath of it.

Speaker 10 After he assaulted you the first time, because you were so young, obviously you can't be faulted for not really

Speaker 10 where do you go from there? You know what I mean? So what, where did you go from there? Did you tell anyone?

Speaker 3 I didn't, I didn't. I didn't tell anyone.
Look, I was so

Speaker 3 because it's it's like a Stockholm syndrome. Like you are so connected to the perpetrator and so scared scared of him that

Speaker 3 it's really hard even as a grown woman to talk about this.

Speaker 3 And I really loved, recently I read something that Charlize Terron actually said

Speaker 3 about her

Speaker 3 hair abuser. And it also, she said that it took her many decades to speak about this.

Speaker 3 And her using her voice and saying that don't judge people that don't come forward with it. It's a trauma and it takes a long time.

Speaker 3 You know, we have this ideal scenario that right after you rape, you go to the doctor, get examined, get checked, and talk to your friends. No,

Speaker 3 that's not how it is.

Speaker 3 So Miriam, who was Mimi, who was also in this trial, she actually told,

Speaker 3 I think she was like the only one that

Speaker 3 talked to a friend right after this happened. But when she was assaulted, she was 29 years old.
So there's a huge difference between a 29-year-old woman and a 16 or 20.

Speaker 3 So, I mean, I'm super happy that she did speak to someone because it helps in the criminal trial for sure a lot. Right.
Because someone supported, you know, what she has said.

Speaker 3 But yeah, but it usually takes a really long time.

Speaker 10 And I don't blame any of y'all for that because it's scary. And you don't, especially when you look look at you were 16 and he was a man in power, right?

Speaker 10 Like he had wealth, he had status, he had, you know what I mean? So like knowing that you're you are gonna go up against someone like that, what are you

Speaker 3 nothing?

Speaker 3 I wouldn't I honestly I at the time I wouldn't even know who to talk to.

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Speaker 10 So you just kept it to yourself, and then the second time you came in contact with him, or did you sort of develop a relationship with him after that?

Speaker 3 We spoke, like, let's say once, twice per year when I was traveling, but it wasn't like, obviously, a tight relationship. Right, right, right.
But we did speak.

Speaker 3 And I mean, he made it,

Speaker 3 he made sure that I will feel like it's all normal, it's all totally okay. Like, he normalized it.
And when I was you know 16, 17,

Speaker 3 I felt like, okay, maybe this is, maybe he's right, maybe this is how it is.

Speaker 10 Well, that was my next question. Did that sort of shape the way that you looked at the modeling industry? You were like, okay, this is normal, maybe this is what goes on

Speaker 3 for sure. It was crossing my, it was crossing my mind.
Right. One thing that was difficult for me to understand was

Speaker 3 he said that he built

Speaker 3 careers of Gwyneth Patrol and Penelope Cruz, right?

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 I at the same time berated myself because I thought that these actresses for sure he didn't do anything to them.

Speaker 3 So then when Gwyneth Patrol came forward and spoke about, you know, what he did to her or what he was trying,

Speaker 3 it was like a huge...

Speaker 3 I don't want to say relief, but almost like a relief that it's not me who was the stupid Polish, you know, teenage model that

Speaker 3 got herself in a situation like this, but he was just a predator that was, you know, assaulting women all the time. Right.
And people, to be fair.

Speaker 10 Right. So you just, obviously, you don't wish that on anyone, but you felt seen, I'm sure.
You felt

Speaker 10 you weren't crazy because at some point you look at, you're like, wait, am I crazy? Did that happen? Was it as bad as I thought? And I've been there, so I understand.

Speaker 10 Did you ever think that, okay, if I speak up or I speak out, I'll be blacklisted and I can't continue my career. Did that ever scare you?

Speaker 3 I mean, I didn't think about that, but at the time, so when I

Speaker 3 wrote an email to the lawyers that were at the time at the case in 2017, I think, or 2018, something like that,

Speaker 3 I was working for

Speaker 3 TV in Poland and I was managing a rehab clinic.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 after the news came out in 2019,

Speaker 3 yeah, there was a lot of hate.

Speaker 3 You know, people were trying, I mean, you know, trolls on internet, but saying that what kind of a psychologist is she, you know, just kind of degrading my knowledge just because of what happened when I was younger, which is

Speaker 3 very cruel. And right now we can observe this as well, these waves of like hatred.
Right. Or it's Cassida or it's, you know, women in Harvey's trial.

Speaker 3 And I think that that's why these kind of conversations

Speaker 3 really thank you for having me are so important because you know it's it's so easy to throw dirt at someone who already been traumatized so much but we are real people right we are not just some you know pictures on the uh in the magazine we are real women who you know who suffered already enough so just enough with the hatred well and that that was my one of my next questions too one of the things that you've said in other interviews is that you you know, one of the bigger roadblocks is not having laws and protections for victims.

Speaker 10 What is your experience with that? Because I know you went up against big companies like Disney and things like that, but you they dismissed, I guess, all of your evidence. Is that right?

Speaker 3 No, no, no, no. So, within the civil case, I worked with that.
Right, right, okay.

Speaker 3 And then

Speaker 3 in this, in the criminal case,

Speaker 3 the worst part was, you know, knowing that my sister is working with the defense.

Speaker 3 And I like,

Speaker 3 it's still hard for me to talk about this because, you know, it one thing lawyers that are trying to tear you apart, but that's their job, to be fair. Yeah.

Speaker 3 But, you know, your own sister doing that.

Speaker 3 Was she here?

Speaker 10 She was in the U.S.

Speaker 3 So the reason, yes, the reason why she was testifying is because when I was 19, she actually went with me for lunch with Harvey.

Speaker 3 and so

Speaker 3 you know she was there testifying about you know the fact that we went for lunch together and then you know in her grand jury testimony she said that when I that I went with him upstairs right that's when he raped me

Speaker 3 But when I came back, I was, I didn't tell her, but I was extremely tense and I didn't speak. I was just, I was kind of mute, you know, I just, I wanted to shut myself down.

Speaker 3 And then she maybe asked if everything's okay I didn't answer and we you know kept on going with our day but it was very clear that something had to happen because you know I'm a pretty bubbly talkative person and during lunch you know I was excited to hear about the movie projects.

Speaker 3 We're talking during lunch

Speaker 3 He was talking about European actresses in American films and so it kind of felt like okay Maybe right now he's you know, he's really wanting to help me.

Speaker 3 And my sister, who I really wanted to have approval of, was hearing that.

Speaker 3 So I thought she would also believe that this is not just some kind of a ludicrous idea of mine to be an actress, but here's a producer. He's a man who actually created a lot of careers.

Speaker 3 And he's saying that I can be the next one. So, you know, it, it...

Speaker 3 Again, it felt like there's something good coming out of that.

Speaker 10 So did you ever have a conversation with your sister about why she would do like testify against you?

Speaker 3 I have not talked to her after that. So what she did in court was I read her testimony.
I couldn't be there. Because the way it works during criminal trials,

Speaker 3 if you are testifying, if you're a victim, you can't be there during other testimonies so that nobody will say that you tailored your testimony to look like others, right? Okay.

Speaker 3 So I didn't know what she exactly said until the end of the trial when I got got the transcripts. And she completely changed her testimony.
She suddenly said that

Speaker 3 when I got back down, I looked like someone who's waiting for an Oscar. What the fuck is that?

Speaker 10 What does that mean?

Speaker 3 She was trying to portray me as, you know,

Speaker 3 I don't know. I don't know.
But for sure, she wanted to paint it differently. And then she changed her testimony so that she was almost impeached because she suddenly said that

Speaker 3 yeah we talked normally and everything was normal and everything was you know that the rest of the day was normal and then the prosecutors gave her the testimony and said this is not what you said you know last August and so she started kind of maneuvering that she doesn't remember that English is not her first language and all this kind of bullshit but obviously she was you know she was really trying to hurt me but but why you guys had a good enough relationship You said that you always wanted to have her approval.

Speaker 10 That's really upsetting.

Speaker 3 Yes. So the relationship was,

Speaker 3 let's say, pure on my side, I would say that. Yeah.
Because I, you know, I never wanted to compete. Like, I'm not jealous of others.
I never really was.

Speaker 3 If, you know, if

Speaker 3 she's a doctor,

Speaker 3 smart, but I mean, she did certain things that really, really hurt me. and she

Speaker 3 continues to try to do that. And unfortunately, I think that money are a big part of this,

Speaker 3 of the way she acts. Right.

Speaker 3 But jealousy, probably as well, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 you go through the trial.

Speaker 10 You find out that your sister testifies essentially against you. Yeah.
You don't have a relationship with her. And you go up against big opponents like Disney, like we were saying.

Speaker 10 What was the deciding factor for you where you're like, I am going to stand up for myself?

Speaker 3 My son. Yeah.
My son.

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 3 He is my reason for everything, truly. And

Speaker 3 I just love him to death. And,

Speaker 3 you know,

Speaker 3 I had to fight for myself

Speaker 3 from the abuse of my husband. Okay.
My ex-husband. And that's when it first started.
I started to slowly feel more powerful because, you know,

Speaker 3 before I escaped from Poland,

Speaker 3 I had a separation with my ex for two months. I went to my friend and I asked her if I can stay there, then I rented airbnb apartment.

Speaker 3 Because the abuse was so horrible,

Speaker 3 I started to understand that I can't stay in that same situation because it's gonna go on him, him, on my son.

Speaker 3 And it started to.

Speaker 3 And I think that where I'm going with that is that once I started to gain a little bit of power,

Speaker 3 like feeling stronger, then all the other stuff

Speaker 3 were easy, let's say, to take in consideration and make decision to, you know, participate in the trials, to

Speaker 3 escape from Poland, to build a new life. But

Speaker 3 it is very hard.

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Speaker 10 When did you first realize that there were other victims that Harvey

Speaker 10 traumatized?

Speaker 3 2017, 2018. And it was,

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 I didn't see that in press myself at first, but a friend of mine who knew that I know him, he didn't know the details, but he knew that I was scared of him.

Speaker 3 I mean, many people knew that I was scared of him. My friend Tanya knew that I was scared of him.

Speaker 3 And she wanted to testify on my behalf in the criminal trial, but they didn't have a chance to like

Speaker 3 question her.

Speaker 3 But so,

Speaker 3 yeah, so my friend told me, wrote me a message saying that

Speaker 3 I don't know what happened between you and Harvey, but check this article out because there are a lot of women that are coming forward and I think it might be helpful for you and useful.

Speaker 3 And so, when I read that, I was shocked. Right.
I was shocked

Speaker 3 to hear, you know, these

Speaker 3 so, first of all, the number of women, like

Speaker 3 100, I don't know, like hundreds, right? And how, and how many are there that didn't speak? Right. Probably a lot more.
Right. Um, so this, and then, you know, the big names, Angelina,

Speaker 3 Guena Fpatro, and, you know, many other actresses. And it felt,

Speaker 3 again, it felt relieving at the same time as, you know, of course, I wouldn't wish it, wouldn't wish it to anyone. Right.

Speaker 3 But it just felt like, you know, I'm not the one to be blamed here because this still, you know, it's like the cycle of aggression. It's like in domestic violence situations, right?

Speaker 3 Victims still feel like it's, you know, it's almost their fault for a long time because of the gaslighting and everything, right? Right.

Speaker 3 And so, yeah. So it's hard to get out of this cycle of abuse.

Speaker 3 And usually also, um it's a it's kind of a pattern uh that you know if if you were

Speaker 3 um assaulted or if you were

Speaker 3 bullied when you were a kid, this is the kind of relationships that you will tend to continue until there's gonna be therapy and you know and just deeper understanding of yourself and and knowing that you know this is

Speaker 3 my only fault in this happening abuse is

Speaker 3 not knowing myself well enough to set boundaries.

Speaker 10 Fair, but so who did you contact then at that point when you saw that there were so many other victims? What is the next step?

Speaker 3 Who do you call?

Speaker 3 I wrote an email to

Speaker 3 Elizabeth Fagan. I think that was her name.
She was an attorney who brought the first

Speaker 3 class action case. Okay.

Speaker 3 And so after

Speaker 3 there were a lot of like

Speaker 3 horrible things happening with the class action case because initially the pot of money was supposed to be something like $140 million for all the women, for hundreds of women.

Speaker 3 And then they started to downgrade it, downgrade it, downgrade it, and it ended up being, I think,

Speaker 3 14 million.

Speaker 10 From 140?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 The drop was horrible. And that's when I decided to get out of class action and I contacted Douglas Widber,

Speaker 3 who is an amazing attorney, and

Speaker 3 filed my own civil case

Speaker 3 against Disney.

Speaker 10 And you won?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 10 How terrified were you to go up against a company like Disney?

Speaker 3 You know what? I understood how big it is when I started talking to people and I saw the like the

Speaker 3 freeze effect.

Speaker 3 Like people were scared to even talk about that.

Speaker 3 That's when I understood that it's a big deal. It is a very big deal.
And

Speaker 3 then again, something that was very helpful was to hear Abigail Disney

Speaker 3 kind of standing up for me and saying that company this company should pay because they knew that a lot of horrible things are happening

Speaker 3 you know in in the company right and they didn't do nothing about that right so it was um

Speaker 3 it was kind of encouraging and it was really nice to hear that um from her in the article absolutely so Now looking back, you know, obviously we're older.

Speaker 10 How do you feel about

Speaker 10 managers and things like that managing kids in the industry, right? Because you came over here with no family and you just had to trust your agency, right?

Speaker 10 And you had to trust their connections and whoever you met. So now we have people that have booking agents and managers and publicists and everything else.

Speaker 10 Like, do you think that if you had some of those people for you and advocating in your corner that things would have turned out differently?

Speaker 3 I believe so. I hope so.
But I think that

Speaker 3 I mean, I don't like the fashion industry.

Speaker 3 I just don't like it. I think it's it's very exploitative to young women.

Speaker 3 A lot of girls, I would say the majority of girls, are working here without working permits,

Speaker 3 not legally. And this has been happening for years, for decades and decades and decades.

Speaker 10 And you think that's even true to this day?

Speaker 3 I mean, I'm not sure, so I don't want to, I don't want to say that.

Speaker 3 assumption is yes.

Speaker 10 So they're coming like girls are coming here

Speaker 10 not working legally, essentially. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Because for what reason, though? Just because they can't?

Speaker 3 It takes a long, long time and it takes money to file for the

Speaker 3 U visa or O visa.

Speaker 3 Working visa, work visa. So, you know, when girls are coming here for, let's say, four weeks in the summer and they're being tested to see if they can work or they can't,

Speaker 3 again, my assumption is that not all of them get working

Speaker 3 visa, which the process itself takes months. Right.
So it's not an overnight thing. Okay.

Speaker 10 And then they come across people like Harvey Einstein.

Speaker 3 And then, you know, it's another layer of fear because you're working illegally.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I mean, personally for me, I was scared that he can get me kicked out of the country or block me from coming here. Right.
No, that makes sense. Yeah.

Speaker 10 I could not imagine. So then you take a step back from your modeling career.
Yes. What was the deciding factor there? You just realized you didn't like it.

Speaker 3 A lot of things.

Speaker 3 I was dating someone who was an actor, and

Speaker 3 it just I understood that at this point, this world is too toxic for me.

Speaker 3 And I need to like balance myself out because I'm going to just go down like a a rock

Speaker 3 thing.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 although I missed,

Speaker 3 missed this world, missed New York, missed,

Speaker 3 let's say, traveling, not working.

Speaker 3 But I knew that

Speaker 3 there's no way I could keep on going.

Speaker 3 The way that it was going. Just to your previous question, what I think should change regarding agents and agencies, I think that there should be psychologists working with models.

Speaker 3 That's for sure that's number one. Like you have sex coordinators on film set, you have psychologists on film set.
What about models?

Speaker 3 Why people don't why agents don't want models to work with psychologists? Because what?

Speaker 3 Because they will say how horrible it is and they will complain and then the modeling industry will have a bad PR? Well guess what? It already has a bad PR. Right.
We know it. Yeah.

Speaker 10 We know what goes on with models.

Speaker 10 So during this time when you step away from your modeling career, you go into psychology and you get your degree. What was why psychology?

Speaker 3 I just really wanted to help myself and understand myself.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 throughout the years, I started to really like it and I started to notice how I can be helpful. to others.

Speaker 3 And of course as a rookie psychologist, I would, oh my god, I would make so many mistakes.

Speaker 3 I apologize to my first patients but I hope yeah you're okay now

Speaker 3 but

Speaker 3 I think first time when I really understood how impactful it can be was when my

Speaker 3 when my professor with whom I was writing my master's thesis told me that I should actually work on models and eating disorders and body image

Speaker 3 problems because that was something that I was very interested in. I suffered from you know anorexia and bulimia, and

Speaker 3 it's really hard to

Speaker 3 get out of that. Right.
It really is like addiction, and we compare it to addiction,

Speaker 3 especially that for women,

Speaker 3 very often bulimia goes with alcoholism. Okay, so it's like it's all connected.
But

Speaker 3 so when I was writing my thesis, I wrote it, I made a research on

Speaker 3 a group of

Speaker 3 90 models or something like that, I don't remember. And like the percentage of the girls that had body image problems or eating disorders was up the roof, you know, and so they're really,

Speaker 3 you know, there really should be help provided to girls and women working in the show business or in modeling industries.

Speaker 10 And did you see that a lot when you were modeling yourself? Like

Speaker 10 eating disorders or disordered eating i just did an episode with um jackie goldsnyder she wrote a book on her battle with anorexia i think it was like 15 years or something like that she was struggling really bad with it and so um but it's you know it never really i mean i don't know what she would say but i personally i think that it never really ends like you have to

Speaker 3 have this in mind for the rest of your life because

Speaker 3 you know certain things can just trigger and

Speaker 3 I mean, I

Speaker 3 had so much anxiety during that period that I was, for example, eating compulsively. And I just, and

Speaker 3 I understand that this is my way of trying to cope with stress. Right.

Speaker 3 But, but, yeah, it's, you know, it's something that really stays like a shadow with you

Speaker 3 all the time.

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Speaker 10 No regrets for your psychology degree, though?

Speaker 3 No, no, no.

Speaker 10 This trial was the inception of the Me Too movement. So

Speaker 10 what was it like dealing with the criticism of that?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think that, you know, a lot of people were saying that Me Too is dead. And

Speaker 3 unfortunately, I think that it's not bad, but not in a good condition.

Speaker 3 We saw it in the Didi trial and

Speaker 3 this trial, that there is some kind of a shift. And

Speaker 3 what's really scary

Speaker 3 is that

Speaker 3 I don't think that people don't believe women. I think it's more that they don't care anymore, which is almost even worse.
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 10 Why do you think they don't care?

Speaker 3 Because maybe a lot of people are thinking, maybe people are thinking that, you know, they deserved it. They put themselves in this situation.

Speaker 3 It's kind of the same thing that was on both trials

Speaker 3 pushing the limit to say that it was consensual that both parties wanted to participate in that.

Speaker 3 And you know, I think that maybe people think that you know, yeah, they they put themselves in this situation, so you know, it's their fault.

Speaker 10 That's actually so sad.

Speaker 3 That is worse, I think, than don't believe it.

Speaker 10 1,000%.

Speaker 3 There has been so many,

Speaker 3 you know, big cases,

Speaker 3 Blake and Justin Beldoni and Umber Hart and Johnny Dapp. And I think that, you know, it's

Speaker 3 it's really bad if you put

Speaker 3 all cases in the same basket, you know,

Speaker 3 because Amber lost her case, right? And it was, you know, a big setback.

Speaker 3 I think that that also impacted the way people portray me too.

Speaker 10 Other cases? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 10 I mean, I

Speaker 10 Alessandra and I are always big on like, you just believe the woman. So

Speaker 10 definitely you just believe the woman.

Speaker 10 What do you have to say to people who

Speaker 10 criticize you for how long it took you to come forward or for any victim to come forward?

Speaker 10 Well, it couldn't have been that bad if she waited five years or it couldn't have been bad if she didn't tell the police right away. Like, what do you have to say to those people?

Speaker 3 I dare you to say it to my face.

Speaker 3 Literally. I literally dare you to say it to my face, and

Speaker 3 I will respond

Speaker 3 that I wish nobody would be in a situation like this, so they would have to understand

Speaker 3 on their own

Speaker 3 how long it takes to talk about things like this, and how long it takes to step forward, and how brave it is to step forward and to talk about that.

Speaker 3 It's really not

Speaker 3 in

Speaker 3 sexual assault trials, in rape trials, victims are almost on stand. I mean, it's almost like they have to protect themselves.
It's an excruciating process.

Speaker 10 Well, I think what people fail to realize is that the burden of proof is on the victim, right? Like you have to prove that this person did it.

Speaker 10 And sometimes the cases get dismissed, not because they don't, they didn't, it didn't happen, but for a lack of evidence that it happened.

Speaker 10 But just because there's a lack of evidence doesn't mean that it didn't happen at all. And that's where, you know, in sexual assault cases, I feel like there's a big

Speaker 10 miscommunication, I guess, or a misunderstanding. Just because there's a lack of evidence doesn't mean, so how do I prove that this happened to me 10 years ago? Yeah.
And, you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 the general public will be like, well, then it didn't happen if there's no proof.

Speaker 3 Well, how do you want me to prove this? Yeah, it's not like we're taking pictures and videotapes after sexual assault.

Speaker 10 What was the process of coming to terms with the fact that you were sexually assaulted? Was there ever a point where you were like, was I sexually assaulted? Like it was more of a question?

Speaker 3 Of course. Yeah.
You question yourself. I mean, I question myself all the time.
And

Speaker 3 I think that really what like

Speaker 3 grounded me

Speaker 3 in a way of thinking that

Speaker 3 it wasn't my fault and that I was raped

Speaker 3 was when

Speaker 3 I started to experience domestic violence from my husband.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 this itself was a very difficult process because at the beginning, we were married for seven years and at the beginning I didn't

Speaker 3 I tried to you know

Speaker 3 I tried to make it less horrible than it was.

Speaker 3 Then I tried to explain him to let's say others that saw that he's angry or upset like my mom saw it my sister saw it and my mom would tell me to leave him and then i at the beginning i would just say that oh no he's just stressed it's just a back problem it's whatever whatever whatever but then you know when the physical violence started to come in when i saw my dog being scared of him um

Speaker 3 i started to

Speaker 3 you know, understand that I'm a victim of domestic violence.

Speaker 3 And that was really hard because I was working as a psychologist, I was doing great, you know, my practice was growing, then the TV, the press came in

Speaker 3 to my life as a part of, you know,

Speaker 3 my work.

Speaker 3 And admitting that, you know, I'm a victim of domestic violence was hard.

Speaker 10 Right. It was hard.
But then you also were like, I also am a victim of sexual assault.

Speaker 3 I'm also a victim of sexual assault. And that these two things combined were almost like

Speaker 3 it made me feel

Speaker 3 sometimes I overthink but it made me think that feel and think that people might be

Speaker 3 maybe believing less in my story by knowing that oh so she was assaulted and she was raped and she was you know what I mean? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Like that all these things happened to her and you know and and yet they did. They did.

Speaker 10 unfortunately they did I don't even know what to say because I also

Speaker 10 have thought that way about myself you know and then you feel like am I damaged goods like I can't be whole because all these things happened to me yeah and that's hard too how would you try to change someone's mind or would you try to change their mind if someone said that to you like oh all of that happened to you

Speaker 3 You mean that or how to help women? Both, I guess. That's true.
Okay. How to help women.

Speaker 3 Well, if someone would say that to me right now, I would just say, fuck off.

Speaker 3 I don't care about your opinion and I don't want to talk to you. That's it.

Speaker 3 You know, getting older brings the comfort of,

Speaker 3 you know, not arguing

Speaker 3 with certain people.

Speaker 3 For you, one plus one is five, have a good day.

Speaker 3 I'm not involved in that. Yeah, but to women, what I would say is definitely please, please, please talk to a professional.
Even, you know what, the

Speaker 3 suicide line, right?

Speaker 3 The hotline, or something like this, like talk to someone. Because worst part of that was having battles in my head.
So I was fighting my own battles, right, in my head. Am I crazy? Is this okay?

Speaker 3 Can he do that? How can I get out of it? And I was... At the beginning, I was terrified when I was, when I made the decision to come here, my son was two.

Speaker 3 And, you know, suddenly suddenly I'm a single mom with a two-year-old and two and three are tough years yeah right yes you're not sure if you're losing your mind or he's losing his mind or we are all losing our minds but but yeah and and so suddenly like I had to face everything that I was scared of right support myself only

Speaker 3 only

Speaker 3 count on myself because there's no one around.

Speaker 3 But for sure, it was the best decision of my life to come here to participate in the trial and to be able to be an advocate right now for

Speaker 3 other women.

Speaker 10 Did your experience and your education in psychology help you with any of that? Like even just battling your own internal conflicts?

Speaker 10 Did that help give you any insight for how to still push forward through all of this?

Speaker 3 Yes, for sure. For sure.
And, you know, I mean, as a therapist, I learned a lot from my patients

Speaker 3 and just

Speaker 3 I mean psychotherapy

Speaker 3 like if once you jump on a bike and you learn how to bike you can you know you will never forget that so all these years when I was working in office with patients it just made me understand how you know people's mind navigate yeah so that for sure really helps in life in general for sure and you were you the youngest one through all of this like one

Speaker 10 what was that that like?

Speaker 3 I hated actually the

Speaker 3 articles that were titled like Youngest Victim of Harvey Weinstein because it's, you know, it's nothing to be proud of.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I wish that

Speaker 3 nothing like this would ever happen to a 16-year-old girl or 15 or a teenager or to any woman, but you know what I mean. Yeah, yeah, of course.

Speaker 3 But I guess that, you know, it just proved that,

Speaker 3 I mean, this is basically like being a pedophile. Yeah.

Speaker 10 So, and if it happened to you, I mean, how many other girls could it have happened to that haven't, you know, come forward, especially if they're young? Yeah.

Speaker 10 I mean, it took a lot of courage for you to come forward. So.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and

Speaker 3 talking about the age was not

Speaker 3 was definitely not something pleasurable, right? Right.

Speaker 10 Did the courts team, the first trial, mistrial

Speaker 3 yeah the first trial they

Speaker 3 reversed the verdict right why

Speaker 3 because

Speaker 3 they said that

Speaker 3 poor Harvey had an unfair trial because

Speaker 3 there were Mollina witnesses Molina witnesses are

Speaker 3 women that he can't be charged on their on the crimes probably because of statute of limitations or some other stuff but they show pattern of behavior. Right.

Speaker 3 And so there are, I think, three women that he was supposed to be charged on, and he was charged on, and three women that were Molino witnesses. So then the judges decided that

Speaker 3 because the Molino witnesses were there, he had an unfair trial because it portrayed him in a worse light than he might have been.

Speaker 10 But that was his pattern of behavior. So I feel like...
So then you had to relive the trial again. again.
Yes. Can you walk us through

Speaker 10 your mentality at that time?

Speaker 3 I mean, last year when I heard that, you know, his verdict was

Speaker 3 overturned, it was horrible.

Speaker 3 It really felt like,

Speaker 3 what are we doing? Right. Beakle Cosby is out.

Speaker 3 Jeffrey Epstein is dead.

Speaker 10 So everyone just gets away with it. They're getting a slapped on the wrist.

Speaker 3 And now, you know, there were

Speaker 3 president said that he might pardon um Diddy or that he's thinking about that.

Speaker 10 Oh, I didn't even hear that.

Speaker 3 Yeah. So when you hear things I mean, he didn't say he will, but think about sure.

Speaker 10 But so when you hear about cases like the Diddy, you know, he didn't get charged for all the things that he should have, in my opinion, should have been charged for. So does that like re-trigger you?

Speaker 10 Does it bring up past traumas for you?

Speaker 3 It actually makes me angry and it makes me want to do something about that. Right.
Because, you know,

Speaker 3 one person can change the world, but if we gather and we have, we do some things together to make you know others understand that you cannot commit these crimes, because that's actually what's frightening for me, is that if people will see, if men will see that they are getting away with that, then there's less fear of getting caught and there's less fear of

Speaker 3 going to trial because they might think, okay, well, Worst come to worse, I'm going to spend

Speaker 3 a month in courtroom and then I'll get out. Exactly.
Like, we don't want to send that message.

Speaker 10 No, and you would think they wouldn't want to make a

Speaker 10 an example out of somebody so that they don't want to do it, but they keep letting all these people off the hook, and that's so frustrating.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 10 During the retrial, Harvey Weinstein was acquitted of your charges. Is that right? Yeah.

Speaker 10 Can you explain the circumstances around that and why it was why he was acquitted of that?

Speaker 3 I mean, from what

Speaker 3 we overheard from some jurors,

Speaker 3 it's because of my sister and the journal that she gave.

Speaker 10 But the journal was, correct me if I'm wrong, obviously, an AA journal. Yes.
So that's

Speaker 10 Alcoholics Anonymous, is that right? So you struggled with alcohol. Yes.
And your journal...

Speaker 3 So it was from 2014. Okay.

Speaker 3 Or 2013, I don't know. That's when I got sober.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 so it was a journal that describes people that have

Speaker 3 hurt you and what was your part in it and

Speaker 3 what could be done differently

Speaker 3 and things like that.

Speaker 3 I told in front of the grand jury that I never shared anything about Harvey Weinstein up until 2017. Okay.

Speaker 3 So in the journal, I wrote some things about Harvey, but I didn't write about sexual assault because first of all the sponsor that I had was working in the film industry and second of all I was terrified of the thought of you know sharing this with anyone in pa on in

Speaker 3 especially on paper right right right of course

Speaker 3 so there are two other men that were aggressive towards me but

Speaker 3 you know it's basically

Speaker 3 They were sexually aggressive, but nothing happened, and I never saw them again. So it was a completely different story.

Speaker 3 And there was not, there were not producers or actors or whatever, not anyone famous, just some people in my life. And

Speaker 3 that was really twisted on the stand. And I was asking, where are all my other journals?

Speaker 3 My diaries, sorry, my diaries. In my diaries, which were only kept for me, I wrote about Harvey.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 they were not admitted in court? No.

Speaker 3 My sister just picked this one and gave this one.

Speaker 10 So could your team have brought in your other diaries or you didn't have access to them?

Speaker 3 I didn't have access to them. They're in Poland.

Speaker 10 So it's a lack of the evidence because you didn't write about it, but it's not.

Speaker 10 I don't understand how they could use it simply because you didn't write in it.

Speaker 3 First of all, what was really

Speaker 3 horrible was that

Speaker 3 I don't know if you're familiar with AA, but AA or NA

Speaker 3 are

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 it should never be brought in court. That's what I'm trying to say.
Right, Right, like you wouldn't. Because there are names also of other people, and they were read publicly out loud.

Speaker 3 And it was just, it was horrible.

Speaker 10 I think you, it's hard to get your therapist notes into court,

Speaker 10 from my understanding. So that should be the same.
Like AA or NA should be completely private.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, that was their angle.
They tried to portray me as someone who was looking for fame and would do everything

Speaker 3 to get get famous.

Speaker 10 Did you not have any type of relationship with your sister from the point that she

Speaker 10 did this or were you sort of talking because you didn't know?

Speaker 3 That's when our way started to really go

Speaker 3 separate. And I have not spoken to her.

Speaker 10 Do you guys have any other siblings? No. Just you two.
Yeah. Which is even more hurtful, I feel.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, no, but basically right now, I have no desire to talk to her again.

Speaker 10 And I don't think you can be blamed for that at all.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 10 This obviously opens a bigger conversation surrounding men with power. So what do you think can be changed in the modeling industry, the acting industry, and how much power we give to these men?

Speaker 3 Well, first of all,

Speaker 3 right now I understand that, but if you want to be in a, which is tricky for

Speaker 3 the show business because a lot of work relationships are connected with friendships and you know that's how people operate but especially if you're new in the business business and you're starting to you're trying to get your foot in the door and trying to break through

Speaker 3 only professional contacts really like if I could say this to my younger selves I would want to

Speaker 3 only professional contacts only meetings in agencies when you want to do reading or whatever else

Speaker 3 and then I really would like to see more psychologists working with modeling agencies and

Speaker 3 acting agencies, I guess. Yeah.
Because,

Speaker 3 I mean, it's more understandable, I guess, for people that for acting,

Speaker 3 most of actors have psychologists or psychotherapists, right? And they work with them because it's the inner world that you have to access in order to be able to perform.

Speaker 3 But for models,

Speaker 3 it's not seen that way, right? And it should be because models are, you know,

Speaker 3 it's a hard work. Sometimes you

Speaker 3 have two jobs in a day you go from one place to another during fashion weeks you know tons of fashion fashion shoots then there's so much rejection also and girls have to deal with it girls and boys have to deal with it have to process it so I think that definitely psychologists and

Speaker 3 and really like sending men with power a message that you won't get away with it. The silver lining is that, is that both Harvey or Diddy

Speaker 3 doesn't matter, well, of course it matters if they are in jail or not, but their careers are hopefully done. Hopefully done.

Speaker 10 Hopefully. I mean, at least for Harvey.
I don't know about Diddy, though. I think there are people who are

Speaker 3 a bit skeptical. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Because

Speaker 3 unfortunately, Cassie,

Speaker 3 I mean, people were worse to Cassie than to him. like talking about her or in internet writing about her yeah yeah and that's scary because we saw all of that play out on video.

Speaker 10 Oh my god.

Speaker 10 What do you have to say to any victims that are facing, you know, an internal conflict of whether to come forward or not? Like what advice could you give on how to come forward about sexual assault?

Speaker 3 I would

Speaker 3 say

Speaker 3 that sometimes it's easier to talk to a stranger, being for example a counselor or

Speaker 3 someone like on a hotline at first to try to ease in the situation of accepting that this happened okay and it's not my fault

Speaker 3 this happened and it's not my fault and right now I need help

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 the reason why I'm saying that is that sometimes when we talk to a stranger being like a counselor that you just met or you know it's easier to share your story because there won't be any follow-up or there might be but you know you can always back off and be like, okay, I shared it, I don't feel good about this.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 starting to open up is the most important thing, definitely. And if your family seems,

Speaker 3 you know, not right for that, then yeah, then talk to someone else. Talk to a stranger.
That's good.

Speaker 3 I received some messages from women

Speaker 3 that are battling with

Speaker 3 their own traumas.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 yeah,

Speaker 3 I think that

Speaker 3 it's easier and it's really relieving to share it with someone.

Speaker 3 Right now, I am back in the film industry because I have a production, film production company, and just produced my first big film with Jonna Hauer King and

Speaker 3 Daniel Beckerman producing it.

Speaker 3 I'm a very resilient person.

Speaker 3 And I hope that this also can send a message that if you have dreams, you should never give up on them. And sometimes, you know, life puts us through reroutes, and that's okay.

Speaker 3 That's okay, because also, this is not a competition or this is not a race where we have to be the fastest or the strongest. We

Speaker 3 just have to follow our road direction and listen to the intuition.

Speaker 3 And I think that that I think that's pretty good advice.

Speaker 3 That's what I would tell my son. And yeah, yeah, it's just,

Speaker 3 you know, I could be bitter or angry, but I'm not.

Speaker 3 You know, I still believe in kindness of people. I still believe in love between people and in good energy.
And I think that's also important.

Speaker 10 Well, we appreciate you sharing your story on Barely Famous podcast.

Speaker 3 Thank you so much.

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Speaker 17 The world did absolutely not need another podcast, but I wanted to because there's no place on the internet where I can yap for 30 to 45 minutes straight with my best friends, you guys, and just shoot the shit, talk about all of my favorite things like social media, pop culture, reality TV, influencers.

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