The Weight Of Beautiful With Jackie Goldschneider

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Welcome to the shit show.

Things are going to get weird.

It's your fae villain, Kale Lower.

And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Welcome to Barely Famous Podcast.

Thank you so much for joining us, Jackie.

Thank you for having me.

I'm so excited because I was reading your book and I know that it came out in 2023 but there's a lot that we could talk about in here if you're okay with it yeah everything okay okay well first let's start about let's start with where you are today and then we'll go back right in recovery no just in general like you did the real housewives yes you have two sets of twins you're an attorney you have you went to school for to be an attorney you practice law so where are you today do you still film the show do you still so my show is on pause so we don't know what's going on with it the last time we filmed was um a year and a half ago.

So except for the one-off at Rails.

We did, we finished filming the last season in October of 23.

So it's been a long time.

So the show is on hold.

So not doing that currently.

Okay.

I am not practicing law anymore.

Right.

I am writing my second book,

which is very, very exciting.

I don't have the book deal yet, though.

Okay.

You don't need one.

Well, no, no, I'll get one.

I'll get one.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm not worried about that.

But my first first book that we're going to talk about today was a memoir.

So I sold that on proposal.

Okay.

But so I do have an agent already and I have a publisher who I did.

My first book did very well.

So I'm sure that they would give me another book deal, but this one's a novel.

So I have to write most of it first in order to sell it.

So I'm almost there.

So I should have a book deal in the coming weeks.

Do we have a genre?

Are you willing to say what the genre is?

Yeah, I went all over the place with this at the beginning, but it is, I think, like dark comedy.

Oh, okay.

It's a revenge fantasy.

Okay.

But it's, I was going to make it a drama, but the drama and revenge together made it too, it was just too sullen.

So it's dark comedy is a little bit better.

I'm a big fan of dark romance.

Oh, I don't know dark romance.

Yeah, dark romance is like falling in love with your stalker, falling in love with it's like dark.

I'm a little bit dark, you know.

Wow.

Yeah, so that sounds like that's right up my alley because I also love like a good rom-com.

So the two of them together, I feel like, would be good.

It's fun.

so you are, you're, you're, you were just telling me that your twins just turned 17, they got their car.

It's crazy, it's crazy when your little boys are suddenly men.

Well, I just feel like I just read about them, so it's hard for me to like picture.

And then I saw on your Instagram that you had got them the car, and I was like, wait a minute, they just, they were just born.

I know, isn't that so weird?

I know they really were just born.

Um, yeah, my older boys turned to 17, and they're fully men.

It's crazy, and they're they're in high school, then they're in high school,

one of them is um, they both play basketball one's had a problem with his knees so the other one but the other one is just like he's 6'1 and he's like this a basketball star and looking at he's getting recruited by colleges how crazy is that it's just wild does he have like a where he wants to go um you know they did no not yet because they did a bridge year at a sports academy to get taller for basketball but it was also like school so that was between eighth and ninth grade so they're they're only sophomores okay so they're finishing up their sophomore year so it's all just getting going but um it depends what, who asks him to play for them.

So we became moms around the same time then.

My first baby was, you have a 17-year-old?

No, he's 15.

Oh, yeah.

So we were both sort of, yeah, yeah.

And then my, my second set of twins are 14, so almost the same.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, I remember reading in your book that you had four kids under three, like three and under.

Yeah, so you know.

Crazy.

That is.

No, I do, but I'm just thinking like to start motherhood, like that was how you started and you didn't know any different.

Yeah, but I like that.

Like I'm, I'm crazy.

i like every minute of the day having something to do which which also has to do a little bit with like my psychosis but i when i have too much leisure time i start to feel bad okay and i don't know what to do with myself right so for me having four kids under three worked and you stopped practicing law once you decided to get pregnant and start a family no no i stopped practicing law because i didn't think i'd move to new jersey so i only took the new york bar so i actually liked practicing law and I was good at it.

But when I left, when I had the first set of two, I had this fantasy in my head that we'd be living in the city and I'd be a working lawyer and my husband in finance and we'd have this one little baby in the bugaboo.

And then I had twins.

Right.

And then I was sick and I was on bed rest and I didn't feel good.

And when the twins came, I was like, I don't know how to do this and work.

You know, it's hard.

And then the apartment got so cramped, I was like stepping over toys.

And I said, let's get get the hell out of here.

Like, let's go to New Jersey.

Yeah.

But in New Jersey, I didn't take the bar and I wasn't going to sit again for the bar with newborn twins at home.

So I just let the whole thing go.

But so could you still?

I could.

Yeah.

I mean, I could take the Jersey bar.

You can't wave in.

Last I checked, you can't wave into New Jersey.

Okay.

But I could, I could go back to work in New York.

Yeah.

It's just, I don't know how passionate I'm really passionate about writing books.

Yeah.

Well, I read that in this book.

And I'm so excited to hear more about this novel because I'm a big, big big book girly.

Yeah, love to read and that sounds like it's right up my alley.

So I'm excited for that.

But so you grew up in New Jersey?

No, I grew up in Staten Island, New York.

But then you moved to New Jersey as a teenager.

As a teenager, and I had a horrific high school experience, which really formed the basis of everything that came afterwards with eating disorders.

Can we talk about it?

Yeah.

Okay.

So when I was reading, I tabbed a bunch of stuff because even if you don't struggle with an eating disorder, there were so many things in this book that were relatable to me.

And so I i tabbed a couple of the things if we if you don't mind we can go over them

so you are first generation here from of immigrants right your parents were immigrant immigrated my mother your mother immigrated my dad was here yeah okay and your grandparents were also immigrants immigrants and

survived yeah my my grandparents my mother's parents were holocaust survivors right and my mother was born in israel after they escaped poland yep and then when your parents came over here and

your mom came over here, she sort of had it in her.

I don't know, I don't know if I would call it genetics, but like it was.

I call it generational food trauma.

Generational food trauma because there was, you know,

they were famished, right?

Like there was no food.

And so because of that, your mom sort of showered you with food.

Yeah.

So they had this mentality that was her mom had, which I didn't know because by the time they were my grandparents, they were like old and

all they wanted to do was buy me toys.

But they had, um,

they had this mentality around food that was you don't know when it's gonna disappear so when you have it eat all of it right eat every last thing and then even when that was not an issue anymore when we had plenty of food my mother's mentality around food was still it's in front of you eat everything

and she also had this like guilt because she was a working mom um And so when she was home, she would cook just like massive loads of food.

And it gave her a lot of joy to see us like filled up with the food.

So there was just a lot of food pushing, a lot.

And so you think that is sort of where it started, like the eating

disorders came from?

I think the disordered eating,

it all started when I was a kid, like not.

really knowing my hunger cues.

Like hunger and eating kind of lost their connection because

eating became about love and eating, eating,

it wasn't really about hunger.

You kept eating beyond the hunger to show appreciation and to show love.

Right.

And I think a lot of cultures are like that.

I know I have been around different Hispanic cultures where, you know, it is sort of looked at as rude if you turn down someone's food and it's not meant to be rude, but there is that we should be able to distinguish between, you know, we're hungry or we're not hungry and not.

But I think so many cultures, not just Hispanic or, you know, your culture, but I think that that's pretty common yeah and just to be clear I'm not judging my mom no she just of course she did the best that she knew how to do it was just really ingrained in her no and I think that makes sense because when you when you live like that for so long and she that's how she grew up is that you have to eat everything in front of you and so I immediately reading this book like the first 20 pages you're already just absolutely invested because of your story and like even just that alone.

I was so

invested.

And I highlighted a couple other parts because then when you moved from New York to New Jersey and you had a really, really challenging high school journey, I could relate to that.

And I, I wouldn't say that I had disordered eating, but I could relate to a lot of the things that you said.

And so you encountered a girl that was really popular and she was like what you wanted to be.

And she was thin and she was popular and all of these things.

And it's, you wrote in here that she made you feel inadequate by doing absolutely nothing at all.

And I thought that that could be relatable to a lot of people, not just anyone that is struggling with disordered eating.

Yeah.

I mean, I just compared myself to everyone and that lasted way into adulthood.

And it's really only in recovery that I stopped doing that because I had the therapy that taught me, you know, you have to, when you recover, which I'm jumping to the end, when you recover, you sort of have to have both a dietitian and a therapist, ideally.

Okay.

Because the dietician is going to teach you like, how to eat food again and, you know, how to feel safe eating food.

But the therapist is really going to go after the reasons why you would choose to starve yourself in order to solve something in your life.

Right.

Right.

And what I was doing was just comparing myself to every single person that I saw.

And body size was what I used to compare a lot.

And that really led me down a very dangerous path.

But yeah, I remember this girl in high school and just how perfect she appeared.

And

she was thin, very thin.

And I thought being thin would solve all my problems, but I just didn't know how to get there.

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In my house, nobody dieted.

But were your parents

average or no, Chubby?

My dad has always struggled with

eating issues as well.

And he has talked about it on my show.

So I know he's not secretive about it.

I would never share someone else's secrets, but he struggled for a very long time.

Then he had lap band surgery.

Okay.

And then he was tightening it so much he couldn't eat anything.

And now he's on Ozempic.

So he's happy,

which, you know, is a whole nother challenge for me.

But

a challenge in what way?

It's hard to go out for me now in recovery, it's hard to go out to meals with people who aren't eating.

It's hard for me to hear how great it is not to have an appetite.

And I'm strong enough to

let those things roll off my shoulders now, but a lot of people in recovery aren't.

But I used to get a real jolt out of not eating.

Like the longer I could go without eating and the lighter I felt, I felt good.

I felt clean, which was, it was all in my head.

It was a mental illness.

There's nothing good about not eating.

But when, but like my dad will say, God, I haven't even eaten yesterday and I'm not even hungry.

And I will get this like little spark of jealousy of how like a little piece of me will miss it.

And then I'll be like, no, no, no, no, there's nothing to miss.

It's part of, it was all part of a package of me being sick.

That's so interesting.

I also think it's interesting that your dad was willing to share his struggles as a man because I feel like eating disorders are constantly thrown on women and nobody talks about men struggling with it or males body images.

Teenage Teenage boys who are athletes struggle a lot.

I know a lot of young men who just don't eat for their sport.

I know, I'm familiar with that with wrestling, but I don't, I'm not super familiar with it in any other capacity.

No, and actually there's like this new,

like the new hot like persona in Hollywood.

If you look, they did a whole thing on it last year about, remember the guy who was in Enora?

Did you see Enora?

No.

The real skinny Russian star of Enora.

And they did this whole thing on all these like skinny Benson Boo and like all these skinny young men with like these little mustaches and how like that's the new aesthetic.

Like being very thin and linky is like the new aesthetic.

And Timothy Chalamay, it's like the whole new like look.

Yeah.

I'm not interested.

No, it's.

My oldest son has made a couple comments about, you know, body weight, body image, and things like that.

And I, I take it so seriously because I realize that how his dad, how he perceives his dad or how he perceives me and what I'm doing really do affect him.

And I think that when you wrote in your book too, and I'm sort of jumping around,

there was a section of the book where you talked about how your kids just knew that you just don't eat when they go to, when you guys go get ice cream or you just don't.

And that was just how it was.

Do you think that they ever picked up on it later on?

Yeah.

So throughout their whole lives, I would take them for ice cream and get a Diet Coke.

I would take them for pizza and get a Diet Coke.

And I didn't care because the eating disorder controlled my life and it was mine.

So I was very possessive of it and nobody was allowed to say anything to me about it.

But I also felt like they were really young and like, who cares if they notice?

Like they don't know the difference between what I'm supposed to be doing and not.

And then

when I did come clean to my husband, who was the first, it was the first time I ever openly admitted that I had a problem, my husband told me that the kids notice it.

And that threw me because I just didn't think that they ever noticed it.

And once I realized that my children were picking up this stuff, I realized all the things that I carried from my childhood into

where I am right now.

Right.

And I, I really like got sick over it.

I felt like I had to undo it all immediately.

What was the turning point for you in telling your husband?

Because for a good, I think the first half of the book,

you drop a couple hints that he sort of knew, but but he didn't want to, he didn't want to talk about it because of the one time that he said something and you were very upset.

So, what was the turning point for you to want to actually admit it and say it out loud?

Yeah, so I knew that the minute I said it out loud to somebody, there was no turning back, especially my husband, because he'd want to help me.

That's why I never said anything because I never wanted to like go back to being overweight because I had so many trauma connections between being overweight and being unhappy and like objectly lonely.

So, um, I had a I hit a rock bottom.

My, it was sort of, it was a lot of mental, I was punishing myself for something that happened.

I felt really bad about something that happened and I stopped eating.

When I want to punish myself, I'll stop eating.

Even today?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, never.

I never play with food anymore back then.

So I wasn't eating and I also had a hamstring injury and I

wouldn't let myself eat anything if I didn't exercise that day.

So I had to exercise.

So I was running through an injury, and my body was just in so much pain.

And I was so hungry, and I was also so overwhelmed emotionally.

And I sort of collapsed on the floor.

And I had this moment where I was like, what would happen?

What would happen if I stopped?

Like, what's the worst thing that could happen?

Because I don't think I can go like this anymore.

I'm going to actually die.

And I was super thin, like breakable thin.

And

I knew that if I told my husband, that there would be no turning back.

So I literally marched upstairs and I was like, I have to talk to you.

And he was very relieved.

He was very, not that I made any moves that day, but it put in motion my entire recovery.

When you say relieved,

what does that mean?

Like he was happy that you finally acknowledged it?

It means that not only was he scared that I was going to die eventually, because anorexia is the number one most deadly mental illness and a lot of people die from it.

So not only was he afraid that I would die,

but this eating disorder not only controlled my life, but it controlled our family schedule.

Well, right, because you talked about, not to cut you off, but you talked about counting your baby's calories and making sure they ate and controlling and monitoring every single thing that they were thinking.

Everything.

But beyond that, so I ended that when I got really admonished by a nutritionist.

But when I say it controlled our lives, like we couldn't go on vacations that were more than three nights because I felt too uncomfortable eating out more than three nights in a row.

We couldn't choose a hotel that didn't have a state-of-the-art gym because I wouldn't go there.

Everything we did had to start after a certain time in the morning so that I could get in my morning workout.

Every restaurant had to be pre-approved.

If they didn't have things on the menu that I could eat, we did not go there.

Like every single thing that had to do with food or exercise, it was controlled by my eating disorder and my family just had to fall in line.

and that was it's a lot for my husband he wanted to take longer vacation like he was he was also kind of tired of like if we were sitting on the couch on a Saturday night want to order in with me no eat your own stuff like I'm eating my stuff and like that's you know it's part of a marriage like we didn't share anything ever I remember you talking about that in the book where

you were wanting to travel before you guys started a family, but at that point you didn't want to travel.

And I highlighted, I think it's on page 90 or something.

Yeah, traveling was so hard.

Something along the lines of, you know, going to Mexico and, you know, you brought 36 cans of

tuna fish.

Did he know that you brought that?

Did he know that you did that?

He says that he did.

He says he noticed everything.

After the fact, he told me that he knew everything, but I'm not so sure he knew about that.

I was very, very.

sleuth like i was very secretive with everything so i would take the cans of tuna in my bag I had a big bag.

And then I would excuse myself and go eat them in the bathroom and come back and pick up my food.

So I don't know if he noticed, but he certainly noticed I wasn't eating at the meals.

Instead of like moving it around.

I moved it around.

Or I would order things that were so plain and take like bites.

Sometimes I would, when I'm home,

I would, not anymore, but back then I would cook stuff at home, bring it in tinfoil and then open it under the table and put it on my plate so that I could eat that instead of what they served me at the meal, but still look like I was eating my meal.

How did your parents react to all of this when they found out?

Yeah.

So my parents, when they saw me losing weight,

At first it was like, oh, wow, great.

I know your dad was really happy.

He was so happy.

Yeah, they were so proud of me.

But then when it ventured into like the scene at my wedding,

then they were kind of hysterical.

And that lasted for a while i don't know if you looked at the pictures i did i got that look where i was just like a floating head like a big floating head with like a tiny little skeletal body um they got very very nervous but my dad has always had a very strange relationship with weight he feels like if you can lose weight then you won it doesn't matter how thin you get like if you go from big to small you win because that's what everyone's after.

And that was really hard for me because if somebody thinks that you're killing it, it's hard to be like, no, actually, I'm not.

I'm struggling.

It's bad.

Yeah.

It makes it harder to admit.

At what point do you think that your kids really did notice and say something to your husband?

I think in like they started in like year 2020, like during the pandemic when we were all home together and

eating became like the thing to do.

I think they really started noticing that like I didn't partake in anything.

Like we were ordering in all the the time.

I never ordered in.

We were getting these homemade pizza making kits.

I never tried the pizza.

We were baking cookies.

I never had one of their cookies.

I think they started noticing a lot then.

And plus, at that time, I really had a lot of habits around the house that I thought nobody would pick up on, but I wouldn't eat anything if I couldn't measure it in a measuring spoon.

So, like, there was just my whole kitchen was just, there were measuring spoons everywhere because that's the way I lived.

And I think they started to pick up that that's that's not normal.

Okay.

Did they notice that you were freezing food?

I think they did.

Yeah.

And now I see them sometimes like stick stuff in the freezer and it bothers me because I don't want to do it.

Do they know why they're doing it?

They do it because they like things like they like to like make things into popsicles and stuff.

Right.

But I get nervous.

I don't think they're doing it for the same reasons I did it.

I did it because I wanted my food to last and it takes a lot longer to choose something that's frozen.

Right.

Right.

So I would freeze everything for that purpose.

But and I think that's a really common habit among anorexics.

Really?

Yeah.

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I

have also struggled with with body image a lot to the point that I'm like mutilating my body and getting surgeries and crying about it and then doing it again.

And so I really struggle with that.

But I thought it was like if you froze it, it maybe burned more calories to like

finish it.

So if I was going to eat a yogurt, there were so few times during the day that I could eat that I wanted it to really last.

That's why I would also eat like 20 bags of salad a day because it makes a meal last.

If you're just going to eat like a, like an egg, right?

That takes 40 seconds to eat but if you pair it with four bags of salad like you can dip the salad into the egg yolk and like make it last an hour right right like but it's disgusting it's disgusting so like let's be honest i mean you put salt on your lettuce i think i read too oh i mean the things i used to do i used to make a bowl of corn flakes and take a water bottle and spray the water bottle until they were like soggy enough and pour sweet and low on it and eat it like that's i would do anything to just have food in my stomach that was the lowest amount of calories possible because I had convinced myself all starting back when I was 14 years old, that if I could just be thin, I could be as happy as the thin popular girls in my high school.

And so that became my life goal.

I wonder if I have that same struggle.

I don't starve myself, but I just constantly get surgery and I just constantly am like looking.

Oh, I didn't even know that.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I've had two full mommy makeovers, liposuction, everything.

And then I just put a little gym in my house.

It's been a little rough, but it's like, and you, I, you know, learning about everything in your book and learning that you have, you know, three sons and a daughter.

I have six sons and a daughter.

I don't know how to talk about this with my kids.

Yeah.

Well, I have, I have some info on that too, if you want to.

Yeah, absolutely.

Anything.

I mean, because especially for my daughter, because that was one of the things I had surgery in December.

And that was after the fact I started, you know, thinking, oh my God, like, what if my daughter wants to mutilate her body and like is struggling with image?

And, you know, we think, you know, your mom probably thought the same thing of you.

You look great.

It doesn't matter what you look like.

You're still, as your mother, she loves you no matter what.

And so how do we tell our daughters that when we look in the mirror and hate ourselves?

Yeah, no, I know.

And I had a mommy makeover also when I was sick, which I think there's some ethics in that.

Like, I don't know why you're giving an anorexic woman who weighs 90 pounds a tummy tuck, but

I think I make a really,

I am constantly telling my daughter

about how different bodies are beautiful and her body is beautiful.

And that when I was really, really sick, remember when mommy was sick, remember when mommy couldn't go out to eat?

That's what it takes like.

to be thin.

Like you have to, you have to really deprive yourself to be that thin.

And I think she wants no part of it.

I also make sure that they know that no foods are good or bad.

They're just food, right?

And like just eat in moderation and like forget the rest and really just be physical like i try not to make anything a big deal right around food yeah no that makes sense i think it's really hard when i before i had the surgery i was talking to one of my girlfriends who had um a surgery similar to what you said that your dad had

um and she was you know telling me how incredibly difficult it was because a lot of social things happen around food parties dinners birthday party you just any everything was surrounded by food and so even after she had her surgery she was saying how you know she would want to go and not indulge, overindulge, but eat it.

Yeah.

A lot of people do out eat their lap band.

Some people are even out eating the diet drugs.

Like Ozempic?

Yeah.

They're just eating until they feel sick and it's not working because they just eat.

They enjoy the...

eating part, which is why people go off the diet drugs.

So I deep dive, I deep dive on everything, but I did deep dive on Ozempic type drugs.

Can we talk about that?

Because I don't know.

And that's been a whole thing for me because I I don't care in the micro.

I don't care what individual is on diet drugs.

Like you have your reasons for doing it.

And like, I have to respect your reasons for doing it.

But in the, but in the macro, I wonder a lot about these drugs.

And people go off of them, I think, on average after two years because they really miss food is one of the main reasons.

They miss eating.

They miss enjoying food without getting sick.

They miss, like a lot of people go off when they go on vacation and then come back on when they come home because they miss eating.

I wonder what the psychology is around like wanting to eat though, right?

Like growing up, we were just talking before you walked in.

We were talking about how I just

love to eat, right?

Like I didn't have generational traumas or anything like that that would cause me to want to eat, but I just love eating and I could never fight it.

So when you talked about if you didn't eat, you were the strongest willed person that you knew.

That's how I would have felt, but I never could be strong enough to not eat.

I would just overeat and overeat and overeat.

Well, I have something else to say about that.

No, this is controversial.

Okay.

I strongly feel like if you took a group of 100 people who went on Weight Watchers in the 90s, you would find that about 90% of them probably have disordered eating or eating disorders from it.

Because Weight Watchers in the 90s, and you'll see that was the first diet I went on.

My senior year of high school, my doctor shamed me, told me I could not go to college fat because I would not have fun.

And I was very overweight at that point, but not like morbidly obese, you know?

I mean, the pictures I thought you looked like.

I was overweight.

I was, I was over 200 pounds, but I, um, he sent me to Weight Watchers straight from his office.

I went to the Weight Watchers at the mall and I registered.

And I,

in the first week, I lost nine pounds.

Weight Watchers in the 90s was a starvation diet.

I probably barely had 900 calories a day.

For a 17-year-old's body, that's not even close to enough.

And

I lost 50 pounds before I went to college.

And then I wildly yo-yoed.

And every time I would go back up, I I would go to Weight Watchers and go back down and then go to, and then be on my own and go back up and then Weight Watchers and go back down.

And so Weight Watchers taught me what Weight Watchers did for me was I think it was a perfect storm of like developing mental illness, this desperate need to be thin and fit in.

And Weight Watchers taught me to use food as a game.

And that eating was math.

It wasn't about hunger.

It was about exchanging food and

finding the lowest calorie exchanges and maximizing your points.

And that taught me how to eat.

So I stopped looking at food as nourishment, which made it easy to hate food.

I've never loved food because I felt like food betrayed me.

And I felt like food, I felt like my body was just dying to be fat.

And anything I ate, it would just like compound.

So I had no problem giving it up because I felt like food was my enemy.

And when I went on Weight Watchers and learned how to diet from Weight Watchers and food became just numbers, I lost all connection to it.

And that was the end of it for you?

That was the end of it.

The day I went on Weight Watchers, the first time at 17 was the last day of my life that I ever wasn't on a diet until I recovered.

I don't know what the rules are for Weight Watchers today because they've also done Weight Watchers in the past.

I don't know if you can do Weight Watchers at 17 at this point.

Now it's 18.

Yeah.

But back then, I mean, I know people whose parents put, I'm almost 50.

Okay.

I I know people whose parents put them on it at 12 years old.

It's bad.

And I actually would love to, so I was a journalist before I was on the Housewise, and I would love to do a deep dive investigative thing.

I mean, Weight Watchers is a behemoth, so I don't know that I really want to take them on.

But I bet you, if you looked into all the people that went on Weight Watchers in the 90s, it's not, their eating habits were all messed up.

Have you ever connected with other people that have the same sort of struggle?

Oh, yeah, I got a lot.

Well, when I wrote the book, I got thousands of messages, thousands, and a lot of them were about Weight Watchers.

You know, but then again, do you want, do I really want to take on Weight Watchers?

I mean, we could all take them on together.

No, let's do it.

Class action.

And then, so you struggled with, and I've never really talked to anyone or heard of anyone struggling with disordered eating while pregnant.

Oh, yeah.

So reading about that, and I know how much I ate when I was pregnant, you know, with singletons, also with my twins, and passing out in a grocery store.

Being pregnant and anorexic, it doesn't just go away because you get pregnant, you know.

It was bad.

I know what it's like to almost pass out while you're pregnant and not be

counting calories and things like that.

So I cannot imagine what it was like for you.

And even that wasn't really like rock bottom for you.

Oh, no, that wasn't rock bottom.

I had two rock bottoms.

The first one was in Mexico when I was eating the tuna on a toilet.

That was really bad.

The second rock bottom was when I collapsed on the floor and decided I had to stop.

Because right before, I didn't put this in my book, but right before I had that rock bottom where I finally decided to recover, and that was four years ago, and I'm still in recovery.

I'm still in active recovery.

Okay, so that was going to be one of my questions.

I know with, you know, drug addicts or alcoholics, they're sort of always in recovery.

Like at the point that you're sober, you are.

forever then a recovering addict or alcoholic.

Is it the same for disordered eating?

It's different, I think.

This is just my personal opinion.

I don't know what an expert would say.

For me, I think that you can make a full and complete recovery with food because whereas with like alcohol and drugs, you just have to abstain from it forever.

You can't do that with food, right?

You have to learn to eat.

I think that you can, if you get rid of all the noise in your head and the mental aspects of it, I think you can learn to have a really healthy relationship with food, which is where this intersects with Ozempic.

Because I think a lot of people are relying on diet drugs now instead of recovery, instead of doing the recovery work, because you can quiet all that noise in your head.

But that's not, that's not the real recovery, right?

Like you have to fix your relationship to food, but also fix the reasons why you'd starve yourself in the first place, or else it's going to manifest in another way.

Overeating as well, right?

You have to fix the relationship because the food noise won't go away.

I mean, it'll go away while you're on the drugs, but you won't.

It'll come right back.

Well, if you go off.

I think there are people that are planning on staying on it forever.

If you can, we don't know.

We don't know if that's sustainable.

We'll see in a few years from now.

And I think another problem is that a lot of these studies you hear about how fabulous they are are funded by the drug companies that are producing them.

So

I think it just remains to be seen.

And I don't want anybody to get sick.

It wouldn't make me happy if it came out that it's causing like cancer or anything like that.

But I think that people are relying on, listen, there's a reason why you chose to deprive yourself of like your life source in order to fix something in your life.

And going on a diet drug is not going to help you resolve that and get healthy from that.

So that's why

I get nervous with these diet drugs because I know a lot of people who had anorexia who are like, oh my God, I'm on a diet drug now.

I never think about food anymore.

I never have to think about it.

Right.

And it just scares me because there's so much value in repairing your relationship to food and really understanding, like just setting an example especially as a parent for my my daughter and my sons but like especially my daughter yeah you know no and i relate to that so hard i don't even know how i'm going to explain my choices to her and i hope that she doesn't have the same struggles because i do think that it's a mental illness for me as well

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So, you did, you did IVF, several rounds of IVF?

I lost my period probably one year into anorexia.

Oh, that soon?

Like, that would be after a year.

Well, my, my weight kind of plummeted.

So I started in, I'm a real sucker for dates.

Like I remember everything.

I have the mind of an elephant.

That's why I could write this book in like a minute.

I wrote this book in like a minute.

Can you write mine?

I

started like real anorexia in the summer of 2003.

And by the summer of 2004, I was like super, no, not the summer.

By the end of 2004, I was really, really thin.

So I lost my period.

I was on the pill, though.

So I didn't really know, but I lost my, it stopped even coming with the pill.

And so I had no choice.

I couldn't get pregnant.

I didn't ovulate.

I didn't do it.

My body didn't do anything.

And also, there's a lot of science behind it.

Like

your glands are not going to produce the reproductive

hormones that they need because your body's in protection mode.

Like it's trying to protect.

So the reason you lose your period is because your body recognizes that it doesn't have enough calories to do everything.

Okay.

So it has to do the things that are going to keep you alive.

Like prioritize, basically.

So your period is not one of those.

Neither is temperature regulation, which is why so many anorexic people are very cold all the time.

It's not just because you don't have fat lining in your bones.

That's part of it.

But you lose temperature regulation.

You also lose a lot of muscle mass because your body has to, it takes a lot of calories to form muscle.

so all of these reasons why your body is trying to keep you alive so it lets go of a lot of the things that allow you to reproduce when you and your husband decided to try to get pregnant and start the the family journey did he know without talking about it why not at all okay

he didn't know um oh like he didn't know it from anything from like women's reproductive stuff like he didn't know that you having disordered eating led to to you not being a period.

No, I don't think so.

No, I mean, he's very smart.

Right.

So I think when the doctor sent us to a clinic,

he might have started to have an inkling that maybe I was too thin.

But right when I got pregnant, Nicole Ritchie was pregnant and she was emaciated.

And you never know anyone's story, but I remember looking at her and being like, well, she got pregnant.

So, and this is part of my comparison thing.

So I'm fine.

like i don't care my doctor i remember him telling me like maybe try to put on a few pounds and let's see if that works naturally and i was like no i'm gonna never do it yeah yeah it was too hard i couldn't i couldn't do it so um like i remember going to the store and like picking up a sandwich in one of those plastic triangle tins and looking at it and being like i cannot physically eat this

So when I was reading and trying to understand like where you were at, from an outsider's perspective, it's like, well, okay, just eat grilled chicken or just eat fruit or just eat something healthy.

But to you, that was not part of it.

I just couldn't eat food because when I would go to eat something, I would connect the trauma of being overweight with

being

so

unhappy.

And so when I would go to eat something, I felt sick to my stomach and mentally I had a mental block on putting it in my mouth.

Even if it was healthy, celery, carrots,

celery, I could do.

Celery.

Carrots were too calorie dense.

It's just, I felt like, you know, you don't worry when you're 26 years old.

You don't worry about destroying your life because you're so young, right?

So you always, I thought to myself that this was going to be a temporary thing until I lost some weight.

And I mean, all the diets in that age, in that era, Atkins,

South Beach, they they were all up yeah right i mean like atkins was like eating this like just like bars full of chemicals yeah that had like no carbs in them and people were doing the craziest diets everyone was on dexatrim people were on fenfen so it was like

you know, what's so bad about not eating?

Yeah.

Right.

At least I'm not putting chemicals in my body.

And so I really rationalized it, but it got to the point where when I went to eat something, it was so loaded.

It was like, I can do better than this.

And if I eat this, then I can't eat something later.

And I could eat something lighter than this.

So I would, it was hard for me to actually eat something without investigating everything around and making sure it was the lightest option.

Grilled chicken was just too heavy.

It was not necessary.

Okay.

Because I was just trying to.

figure out what the thought process was.

Yeah, the thought process had less to do with food and more to do with mental illness.

Okay.

Yeah.

So when you're going through all of, you know, trying to get pregnant and eventually go to the IVF, go through IVF, you got pregnant on the first time you got pregnant on the first try.

The first time on the first try.

Okay.

And

you wrote in here that, and this is sort of switching gears a little bit, but you said, a woman goes through IVF alone.

You take the shots alone.

You feel the physical pain alone.

You fight the fears and demons alone.

And if you have the misfortune to have most likely caused your own infertility, you feel the crushing guilt all alone.

And

I have never had to go through IVF, so I can't understand like the the pain.

I can empathize, but what was that like on top of dealing with everything that you were dealing with with your disorder?

It was really scary because I knew from a very young age that I wanted to be a mom

and my husband really wanted to be a dad.

And I felt it was the first time I really felt like that I fucked something up for somebody else with my eating disorder.

And that like.

not only did I fuck up my husband potentially becoming a father, but like all these future lives that I wanted to bring into the world were now like in jeopardy because

I couldn't eat, you know.

So, I felt like for the first time, this was bigger than just me.

Right.

Did you have a lot of support going through IVF?

Did you know anyone else that was going through IVF?

I didn't know anybody else going through it, and I didn't want to talk about it to anyone else because I was nervous that people would connect it to my eating disorder.

And I didn't want to talk about my eating disorder ever to anybody because I was scared they would make me stop.

Do you think that people talked about IVF?

I don't want to say back then because it wasn't that long ago.

It was a long time ago.

It was 17.

It was 18 years ago.

Do you think that people talked about it as openly as they do now?

Nope.

I think everything now is so much more open because of social media.

Right.

There really, there really wasn't that much social media back then.

So

no, now everything is.

Right.

So, you know, you're struggling with disordered eating, mental illness in that way.

And then you're now going through IVF with with your, your husband and you're sort of having to deal with these two things with no real support outside of your husband.

Yeah.

But I was very headstrong and also mentally ill.

So in my own head was a different universe where I just had to get through things and then move on.

And I knew eventually I would get through.

I would get through

whatever phase I was in.

You know,

my doctors put me at ease.

They said,

they said,

you know, you're a good candidate for IVF.

It should work because I guess the issues that I caused with being anorexic were not impacted by like IVF treatment puts the, you know, puts the fertilized embryo right into your fallopian tube, right?

So you're utter.

Did it affect the quality of your eggs?

Or that's just

the

you talked about having low quality.

So I just didn't know if the anorexia was a contributing factor to that or if that was just by nature.

So, I mean, I think when you destroy your body the way that I did, by the time I went for my second round of IVF, and you know, that took four rounds to get pregnant again, I had

no

estrogen left in my body.

So, I couldn't get any levels up to anything close to keep like a pregnancy going.

So, I went on hormone replacement at what, 31 years old.

I've been been wearing an estrogen patch since I'm 31.

So for 18 years.

You've been wearing an estrogen patch on my butt.

Yeah.

I didn't even know that was a thing.

Yeah, I have no estrogen in my body.

To this day.

Yeah, because, and, and I was, I was very like high-risk osteoporosis.

Oh, yeah.

I, oh, the number of health things that I messed up in my body from anorexia, 18 years of anorexia, terrible.

I have, um, I had a heart condition called bradycardia

where it was

my heart was struggling so my resting heart rate was in the 30s like

sometimes 40

and it was and it's supposed to be in the 60s I

couldn't my heart just didn't want to beat fast because it didn't have enough muscle to beat fast and everything in my body was trying to conserve so because I had no calories I was really eating nothing right and so all of these um all of these organ functions were not functioning in my body.

I had a lot of hormones that weren't functioning.

I had my lips would turn blue if

anything under 60 degrees.

My lips would turn blue.

I was always in a heavy coat and doctors never stopped me.

So I rationalized that if doctors aren't saying anything, I'm fine.

With the pregnancy, I mean, like, I just like created such bad conditions for getting pregnant that, yeah, of course, I think it contributed to my egg quality.

But you, you know, you had your twins the first round of IVF the first time.

They were mostly healthy.

I know they had a little, a short NICU stay, which, you know, overall they're healthy.

They were born early, but they were healthy.

Thank God.

Yeah.

But I don't know what my eating habits contributed to them.

I ate more when I was pregnant, but I, but I did it very mathematically.

I went to a prenatal nutritionist.

I said, tell me the minimum amounts that I need to eat.

And she said to me, she was like, you know, you have to feed yourself too.

I said, fuck you.

Tell me what is going to keep my twins alive and healthy right don't worry about me i'm good and basically i had a chart and i ate at the very minimum levels of that chart and then i had no guilt and did your husband ever say anything to you during that time no because the the time that he tried to say something to me i jumped down his throat and you know again we were in our you know early 30s i think he thought like it's a phase and i'll get past it and he never knew any different I became anorexic a few months before I met him I remember he never knew anything different so when you get pregnant the second time you went through four rounds of IVF sort of a similar situation with the first set of twins where they stopped growing at a certain point c-section early

and I think was that the time that four months later you had lost all your weight or is that the first the first ones I lost all the weight so quickly I couldn't like I say in the book like the way some people miss like wine or sushi that's the way I miss starving myself.

Like, I hated,

I couldn't look at myself pregnant and see anything but ugly.

Like my stomach, I thought was so ugly, and every stretch mark I thought was so ugly.

And I, um, I couldn't wait to starve again.

I really couldn't, which sounds so crazy because now it's like my worst nightmare.

Yeah.

Um, but I, uh, my second time, I just couldn't lose the weight.

I mean, I lost most of it, but I just could not, I couldn't lose it fast and it drove me crazy.

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And so then what?

I did get a mommy makeover after my second set.

I mean, I just starved myself until I

lost it.

You're happy

with it.

But then does it really bring you true happiness?

Oh, no.

No.

I mean, I was still anorexic for another decade after that.

You know, I went, I did a half-assed attempt at recovery

and i went to a dietitian and i now here's the problem with just going to a dietitian to recover first of all any steps you're going to take to recover are great yeah however i really think that your best chances are a dietitian and a therapist because i went to this dietitian and i said i need to eat more but I don't want to gain more than two pounds.

And at the time, I was 90 pounds soaking wet.

I was tiny.

So

I expected this person who has a, you know, a degree in food science, right, to fix the issues in my head that were saying, you can't eat, you don't have a right to eat, you're not entitled to eat.

So she can't do that.

That's not her training, right?

So unless you have that piece of it going also and somebody helping you fix that, you're not going to get past this, you know?

What was her reaction?

I did, I remember reading the two-pound

scenario in the book, but what was her reaction when you said that?

She tried being diplomatic about it, like, okay, I understand.

Let's try this out and see.

And I would say to her over and over again, what if I gain more?

Will you help me?

Will you help me?

And she didn't want to help commit to helping me lose weight, which I think was one of the reasons why I was so scared to do anything more.

And I think once I learned how to eat a little bit more

without gaining weight, I was kind of like, I'm good.

I'm not going back anymore.

Yeah.

And then

when you started filming the show and you had, you obviously have all of your kids, how does that play into counting your calories, restricting, doing all of that?

Because I know you're hiding food and bringing it up on the table, but obviously your cast mem castmates had to have noticed and said things.

The first year, no, because I knew how to fake it.

So I knew how to save.

So I would just, if I knew I was going to a meal, I would just starve myself until the meal and then eat all my calories in one sitting.

And, you know, the truth is that on these shows, for a number of reasons, a lot of people do not eat during the meals.

You, it's, first of all, it's hard to speak with food in your mouth.

You don't want a chance dropping the food on your clothing.

Also, it doesn't look as elegant, you know.

So I would go to these meals and at the beginning, I was like, oh, God, I'm going to have to eat and prove it.

And then I realized that no one was eating.

And then, like, a lot of the times we would get in such heated, I mean, do you ever see a meal on Real Housewives?

Like four seconds into it, you're already fighting.

So I half the time, I didn't even have to worry about it.

I would take one bite.

And like, I did have some times, though, my second season, I got caught because I just, there were too many meals where like we were expected to like sit and talk to each other.

And I just didn't know how to eat the food.

So I just wouldn't.

And so what did, what did they say to you?

What did the girl say to you?

So nobody said anything until this one pivotal scene where

I was in, it was, I took everyone to my beach house and there was a breakfast scene and Melissa had cooked like a whole breakfast and it was stuff that I would never touch.

It was eggs and bacon and, you know, sliced avocado.

And

I

decided and usually I would have them put, I don't know how it works on T Mom, but like, did you guys travel at all?

No.

When we would travel, they would ask us what foods we wanted in the house.

Okay.

So I would always make sure that there was,

I gave them my specific yogurt that I liked

and fruit.

And I would eat yogurt and fruit.

Because I knew the calories and it was

new.

Right.

Yep.

And there was no yogurt and fruit in the fridge that day.

Like, I don't know if someone ate it or if they just didn't put it there because they wanted this to happen.

I don't know.

But if they plotted that.

I don't know.

Who knows?

I mean, it made for good TV because my only option was eating these chips that were on the the counter.

And I thought no one would notice.

And I ate the chips because they were like these, these pea snaps and I knew the calorie count on the back.

I just couldn't eat anything that I didn't know the calories of.

For me, that was like a non-starter.

So I

was like, I'm not really hungry.

I'm just going to grab some of these.

And that sent red flags up everywhere because everyone was eating a normal breakfast.

And I was sitting there eating like dehydrated pea protein chips.

And after that, it became a talking point.

And then I got called out on it that I don't eat.

And I had like a nervous breakdown on air.

And I kind of told a story and covered it up.

And

I mean, I planned for that moment.

I knew it might come.

So I had all my stories lined up of what I would say.

And after that, it never came up again.

That's the most outrageous thing that I've ever heard for people to weaponize something so personal and be so calculated about it.

Yes and no.

I mean, I did put myself on a reality show with a secret.

Yeah, yes, but I mean, I don't know that she didn't put the secret in there.

Of course not, but to create a moment.

And here's the thing: like, you know, we've both been on reality TV, right?

Like, I would always tell my producers, I'm happy to give you the drama you want.

You just have to plan it with me.

Like, I want to plan.

I want to be a part of the planning.

I don't want to be caught off guard and blindsided.

I will literally give you what you want.

Whole Housewives is all about being caught off guard and blindsided for sure.

And that's not even a bad thing.

Like, I don't even think I'm burning a bridge, probably.

Like, that's what I'm saying.

I don't want to put you in a position where I know, no, I would never.

But that's what it is.

And that's part of the thrill of it is like getting caught.

Like, you catch your castmate doing something.

I,

yeah, I just, I have mixed feelings about it because I just knowing that that is like so personal to you.

I will say, yes, I agree.

And I think that is, you know, more on my castmates than it is on production.

What I will say is that when I did choose to recover and I called the producers and I said, I would like my story this season to be real recovery and I want you to document it.

They were all in.

They did a lot of work for me.

They found, they did everything to get me in the doors at Renfrew, which was the Eden Disorder Recovery Center that I started at.

And they really did

help me.

Now, now.

I do think that that's the reason I got demoted.

It was not because, I mean, the season before I got demoted was one of the best seasons that anyone on Jersey has ever had, right?

Like I had, people said it was the most real storyline that they've ever seen someone really go through.

So I think that saying on camera that stress from the fighting had made me my sickest and brought me to my rock bottom.

And then the the intake counselor at the eating disorder center saying that I was on the verge of a heart attack.

I think all of that combined made them.

Now, they've never told me this, but I think all of that combined was a big legal issue for Virlo, for sure.

And I understand that.

But they would bring you back, surely, now, right?

Because you're in recovery.

Yeah, I think I have kind of made it clear that I enjoy the friend role.

My

See, this is difficult for people to understand because they think that they use the word friend as like a, you know, a derogatory term.

My sons at 17 years old would love nothing less than a camera in their face right now.

Right.

So I, if I got asked to go back full time, I don't even know that I could because they don't,

it's not for them.

Right.

And my, my son feels that, well, he likes to pick and choose.

And so I get that, I think that's, and that's their right.

Yes.

You know, I went back, I made a cameo on Teen Mom and loved being the friend.

I loved that the story wasn't about me.

And I think you probably

derogatory.

Like people are always like, shut up, friend.

And I'm like, wait a second.

Like, I'm still like

there.

And it's like, all the doors are still open for me.

Yeah, I don't, I don't know.

Who knows?

But would I go back full-time?

That would be, that would put me in a position because I had a lot of fun with it.

And I do credit the show with helping me recover.

For sure.

Okay.

Well, I mean, that's, that's really nice.

I will say that.

Despite some of the reality experiences that, you know, you and I may have had or other castmates and things, it does contribute to some of the troubles, I would say, like in our lives, or at least be, you know, just a contributing factor.

But I, I also have seen production on Teen Mom be helpful when cast is ready for treatment, but they have to ask for it.

We have to ask for it.

They're never going to offer it.

until the cast member asks for it.

Right.

Because I think that's also a legal issue.

Oh, great.

Suffering.

Okay.

So they can't just come to, I don't know this for sure.

I'm not in law.

I don't think that I think that there's some liability in trying to to help somebody, you know, fix a health problem and then like not following through.

I don't, I don't know how deeply they want to get involved with that.

Right.

So if a cast member is like, hey, I need to go to treatment or I need to do this, they'll help you.

Then they'll help you.

Yeah.

But I think initiating the process might encounter some liability.

Do you feel like nothing, like looking back, right?

Hindsight is always 2020.

Do you feel like looking back, nothing would have gotten you into treatment or recovery sooner?

Do you feel like this is how it had to go and you had to decide when you were ready?

Absolutely.

So I really feel like that's one of the sad parts about this.

Like, unless you're a child, no one can force you into

treatment.

So having anorexia as an adult, and I developed it pretty late in life, and I carried it into really late in life.

And it's hard because you get so stuck in your ways and you get comfortable and you get scared of change.

And

the fact that no one can force you to recover, I do feel like it had to go like this.

And I also,

it was a lot for me, there was a lot riding on staying thin.

It was my measure of success.

It was also my identity.

It was, it made me feel special.

I knew that if I walked into a room before the housewives, I felt like if I walked into a room, there was really nothing about me that was special.

And this was mental illness.

I'm not saying that's true.

But if I walked into that room room and I was the thinnest person in that room, everyone was going to notice me because that made me special.

So, and that was part of my warped way of thinking, but I didn't really feel like anything about my life was that fantastic.

And then when I was on the show, I was like, well, this makes me special.

And then I was like, but I don't want to be the special person who got fat.

So now I have to keep going.

There was always a reason why I had to keep going and always a reason why being thin made me special.

And I really had to untangle all of that, like separate my identity from the size of my body in order to recover.

When you started recovery and treatment until you started to finally be comfortable with food and starting to gain weight, what was the timeline there, do you think?

It was so weird.

And it's funny you asked that because

I guess there's sort of like a trajectory that a lot of people follow with weight gain in recovery.

So I went went from eating nothing to really eating, not overeating, but eating pretty normally quickly.

And then I got spooked and then I backtracked.

And because at the beginning, the first like two months, I didn't gain anything.

First like four months, I didn't really gain anything.

I remember I started it all in like August

and then in December, we went to Miami and I was in a lot of the same clothes and I was like, this is great.

I'm eating everything and like, I'm not eating everything, but like, I'm really eating normally.

And like, I haven't gained anything.

And then like all of a sudden from January to March, I must have gained, I didn't get on scales.

I must have gained probably a better idea.

Cause I mean, even the healthiest person getting on scales can be scary.

I gained so much weight.

I don't, nothing fit me.

at all.

I was in like all sweats.

I felt awful about myself.

I was second guessing everything.

It was really hard.

I backtracked a lot.

I stopped eating a lot of the things I was eating.

It took me a long time to get comfortable with food.

Really long time.

Not going on the scale is a great idea for me because then you don't, you can't hate a number that you don't know, right?

But I'm also at the point now where I'm not fully recovered.

I'm like 80%.

I do still get nervous about gaining a lot of weight, which I think is due to the fact that everyone's on Ozempic.

So back to your question about would the show have me back?

I'm like the hell, I have like the healthiest relationship with food on my whole show because everyone's on diet drugs now.

No one's even eating anymore.

So, I not everyone, but like at least half my cast is on diet drugs.

So, in terms of health, there's no liability issues anymore.

It took me a long time to really get comfortable with eating.

Yeah, I can imagine.

Yeah, and then people,

that one scene that I said at the end of the book where I went to dinner and one of the husbands guessed my weight and said a number that just set me off.

And I really had to go home and think about what the fuck does a number mean?

Who decided that that was a good idea for him to do that?

He decided.

I won't say who it is, but people know.

Why do men feel like they should be this person?

No, yeah, of course.

But why do people feel like they should do that?

I don't know any other, like, I cannot imagine my husband guessing someone's fucking weights.

Like, I think it takes a I don't even think like anybody I've ever been with has even thought about that.

It's just not something that is that's not I don't know if he thought he was complimenting me or what, but that number in my head was so triggering for me.

I mean, I went home and I was like, oh my God, I'm 140.

I'm 140.

Like, that's a number like when I met my husband and I just started being anorexic, I was 140.

And like, I was hysterical.

I can imagine.

Yeah.

And then I, and then I had to realize, you know, it's a lot of self-talk.

I had to realize, like,

my body looks the same as it did before I went out to dinner.

No matter what this person says, that number is, like, it doesn't change my body.

Now I don't care.

Like, you told me I weighed 300 pounds.

I don't care.

I know who I am.

I know what my body is.

I know that weight fluctuates.

You know, I know some days my clothes are tight and then the next day they're loose.

You know, I know that's just how bodies work.

You know, and do you think that if your daughter ever had questions, you would tell her the same thing?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

I try to talk to

my daughter a lot about

body size

and how

fun it is to, you know, eat food and try different foods and have much fun.

I don't hide my eating disorder from them.

I

do try to make a show of how much I enjoy eating now and how also that I do exercise and that you need to do both.

And that,

and I do make comments from time to time so they know how horrible it was to live with an eating disorder.

One other thing I messed out, and I don't talk about this in my book, but I did, I was for a period of time addicted to laxatives also, which is not glamorous.

And I didn't talk about it in the book.

It was one of those judgment calls I made.

But I feel like it does, that is something that affects a lot of, and it screwed me up for a long time.

I'm great now, but to the point where I'm the only person, when I went for my colonoscopy, my doctor said I was like the only person that he knows that the prep didn't work for like everybody shits their brains out and i just couldn't go to the bathroom at all

and you just didn't want to put it in there you felt like it was oh yeah that's i just i didn't i shit my pants regularly so i was just wondering no i don't need to take

that colonoscopy prep like my my

bowels were just so fucked up from everything like head to toe i destroyed my body with anorexia absolutely destroyed it which is not something you think about well i was just about to say you don't know until it's you think about You think about all the glamorous parts of being thin.

I thought about how wonderful it would be for me to tuck my shirt in and not have like a massive stomach hanging over.

You don't think about all the ways that you're absolutely destroying your life and the lives around you.

I never thought of half of the things.

I mean, laxative never, that never crossed my mind for, I've thought about eating tapeworms.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

Is it tapeworms?

Yeah.

I thought about eating

parasites, eating parasites.

Yeah.

I mean, you'll do anything.

You get so desperate, so desperate to be thin.

And then it's hard because like everyone's reinforcing how great you look, right?

Absolutely.

And what's so hard is like when people hear my story, they're like, if you put that amount of work into eating right and going to the gym, you wouldn't have to do this.

mental illness doesn't allow you to think that way.

Oh, of course not.

And by the way, that doesn't work for everybody.

Like going to the gym.

I have PCOS, so I need help losing weight.

It's not something that I've ever, even from a small child, been able to just do on my own or just exercise and i'm gonna lose weight like that's not i could eat right and go to the gym and i still need help so i think when people don't understand that and even doctors don't understand that like if they're not versed in pcos or you know having um what it court is high cortisol or high testosterone in women like they're not thinking about all of those things if they're not super familiar with it and so hard i mean the way that society reinforces being thin as the ideal i mean i was so i remember times when i used to i used to go to the gym when i I lived in the city before having kids and I would run for 60 minutes and there was no alternative.

And I would run at seven miles an hour for 60 minutes.

And people would come over to me and be like, oh my God, that's amazing.

And you're like, do that.

And I was like, what I really wanted to say was like, it's fucking torture.

And I don't give myself a choice.

And my body hurts so bad, but I'd be like, oh, you know, I love running.

You know, I'd be like, oh, that's so great.

That's amazing.

You look so good.

Yep.

You know, and like this, I remember this, just like elderly women that were from like a different era, they would just tell me, Oh, you look so glamorous.

Don't let anyone tell you you're too thin.

This woman told me once, she's like, Don't let anyone tell you you're too thin.

You're so glamorous.

People would die to be that thin.

And then

it fucks with your head, you know.

You're like, Well, fuck.

Like, if I go back, I'm going to be a failure.

Everyone's going to say, Oh, I knew she couldn't do it because she's really like meant to be fat, you know, and I never wanted to give that to anyone.

There were just so many contributing factors and i'm so grateful that i found my way out of it and that's why i wrote the book is because

i was so far gone and i want people to know that like you can be so far gone and still completely make your way back and you did yeah and i know that everyone is so proud of you and everyone that can connect to your story in any way is so proud of you thank you and i loved hearing your story it's it's been rough and i don't know if reality tv contributes to it like especially if you sort of already are suffering with mental illness or body image or anything like that, and then you're on reality TV on top of it, it sort of adds another layer, like another adding salt to the wound, sort of, because you have more eyes on you.

I don't know if you've ever experienced that.

I mean, I also think that they're part of the same thing.

Like, you're looking for validation from something outside yourself.

You're looking for people to tell you that you're doing great, right?

And whether that's because of the size of your body or because you're suddenly a TV personality, you're looking for something else bigger and better, right?

So it's all part of the same.

I don't know many

really confident, happy, settled people who would choose to expose their lives on reality TV.

So do you think reality TV is mental illness then?

No, I don't think it contributes to it.

I think that the people who would want to be a part of it are probably

missing something in their lives.

Stop yelling at me.

Stop yelling.

Stop doing me, Jackie.

Stop yelling at me.

But I would still do it.

So what does that say?

What does that say about me?

What's missing?

Or I just got a little bit addicted to the fame, right?

A little bit because it's this love-hate relationship.

I hate what the trolls say.

I hate how mean they are, but I can't stop.

And my identity now is like, I don't feel relevant enough unless I'm on TV.

So me actively seeking out what am I doing next on TV to stay relevant because that is what I identify as successful.

So I think that once you're on TV, it changes like the trajectory of why you would go on.

So at first, you go on it because you're looking for that validation.

And then you get a taste of the fame and you're like, wait, I can open all these doors.

And like, I stand out in a room, right?

So like, I know when I'm going away this week with my family, I know when I go to the airport, like there's going to be a lot of people who want to take a picture with me.

And for me, that's still kind of thrilling.

Right.

So the fact that

I can keep that going

is

somewhat exciting.

So that's not because something's missing in my life now.

I just, I got a taste of it and I like it, you know?

At least you're honest, though.

Yeah.

I feel like some people are like, but I'm be okay not doing it anymore.

Yeah, of course, of course.

But maybe not me, though.

Like, I'm actively like, what am I?

I have to keep going.

Are you still on TV?

No, I left three years ago.

But you have this.

So, like, you became the biggest book talker around, right?

Like, you are a success story.

Like, you're amazing.

Like, when I found out I was coming here, I like was jumping out of my skin.

Really?

So, yeah.

I don't think I've ever heard a better compliment than that.

Oh, no.

I said to my, my, uh,

publicist at Simon Simon and Schuster, I said, if, if there's any way in hell that I can talk to Kaylin, I'm like, please.

Yeah.

I'm like, I don't think she knows who I am.

Oh, are you out of your mind?

Did you ever watch Teen Mom?

Yeah.

You did?

I watched when you were originally on it.

No way.

I didn't watch the later seasons, but you know what?

Yeah, because nobody has cable.

I did.

Nobody has cable.

Are you able slash willing to talk about real housewives drama?

Yeah, for sure.

I guess people know the drama with the real housewives, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

All right.

So.

And it's also ever-changing.

Like the person person who i was fighting with the most that actually led me to it's not her fault it was like the way i processed it all mentally is actually like probably my closest friend on the cast now so like everything changes so i think the drama is like you know you you should talk about it like in the overall okay i'll just do reality tv questions in general so um you and Evan have a rock-solid marriage.

Yes.

And I love that for you because I feel like so many times in reality TV, we see bits and pieces, but then it's like sort of not really what's going on on the other side.

Oh, yeah.

And also like a lot of marriages crumble.

Especially under the microscope, I would say.

But what advice would you have,

if any, for a relationship and a marriage like that, to have a rock-solid marriage like that?

You mean on reality TV just in general?

I think what works really well for me and Evan is, first of all, you have to love each other.

You really have to have that love and respect for each other, but you have to let each other do, like be themselves.

Like if you're, if you go in and try to change, like, I have a lot of quirky habits way beyond the eating stuff, like, put the eating stuff aside.

I'm quirky.

I'm interesting.

I'm weird, right?

And Evan lets me be me, and I let him be him.

He's got his weird habits also.

And, like, we, unless it's something dangerous or that impacts the kids, like, we give each other that space.

He doesn't like to go out that much.

And I love to go out.

We let each other do our thing, you know?

I think a lot of trust and a lot of space is is very important a lot of trust trust is hard i think specifically for all couples but also especially when you're in the public eye that can really test a marriage and you have to like trust that that's not yeah evan got very upset i remember when we went to ireland um

somebody snapped a picture of me hugging a tourist And he said something to me.

And so our faces were like, first of all, the last place I would cheat on my husband is in the streets of Dublin with 18 cameras on me, right?

So,

but anyway, the way that the picture looked, it was like

our faces were like real close to each other and we were like holding each other.

He was like a kid, you know.

And someone sent the picture to Evan and was like, this is what your wife is doing in Dublin.

And he lost his fucking mind.

And he got so upset.

And I was like, you have to trust me, like that I am not cheating on you on the streets of Dublin, you know?

And I think he realized like okay like this is silly and nothing's happening here um

with reality tv yeah you really got to trust it adds like another layer because with the attention also comes attention from other people and that will ult can ultimately

add another layer and i'm also very friendly like if you are a fan like i'll give a hug i i like that i'm like a touchy-feely person anyway so i mean so yeah you just have to have that extra layer of trust yeah um okay so i told you that i just had twins and I'm, I tell everyone that I love that I want them to experience twins and they're like, please don't wish that on me.

But they, you have to, and you have two sets of twins.

I don't know how to explain to people what I mean.

It's a, you know, I would say for the first, for your childhood, I believe a happy childhood is,

forms the basis for the rest of your life.

I would agree.

Okay.

So

to have a built-in

playmate and built-in best friend is so invaluable, especially to someone like me that didn't have friends in high school, which is really what made me sick.

High school made me very sick.

High school, I was so lonely.

To know that your child has that person, that's always going to be their person no matter what, is so invaluable.

Like, I can't explain how at peace it puts me as a mom.

And even though, like, my 17-year-old boys now, they've gone in different directions, they're very different people they are still

connected like that and if it something happens to one it happens to the other so i feel like that's such a gift to your children and contributes to a really happy childhood i am obsessed with my twins and want everyone to have them so they're they fight though they they they're toddlers and they like hit each other and they but they also love each other so fiercely that i think not saying that my other my other kids don't love each other and you know they're siblings but the twins there's just something about their bonds that is so special they did both sets of mine fought a lot that does end it does okay

okay especially boy girl I worry because they're so polar opposite yeah

but yeah I mean I hope everyone in this room has twins at some point.

It's if they want children.

And it's two for the price of one, right?

I did not like being pregnant.

So there you go.

I mean, and you have, are your older boys, are they identical or fraternal?

No, everything was fraternal because it was all IVF.

But you think with IVF, you can still have identical pregnancy.

Well, I think having identical is when you're eggs.

It's not a matter of putting in two.

Right.

Okay.

But did they put in, they put in two at first?

Okay.

I think now, and they typically don't, or it depends where you go.

They won't put in two.

Because, you know, twins is a riskier pregnancy.

It's a high risk.

And the reason they won't a lot of the time is because IVF clinics have to publish their numbers.

And the more single pregnancies, the higher rate of live births, right?

So if they put in twins all the time, you'd get a lot of disappearing twins.

You'd get a lot of, you know, that term, right?

Where one doesn't make it.

You'd get a lot of, you know, twins have a higher risk of not making it, you know?

So

it brings their numbers down.

I do know that some

places will still do more than one, at least where I went.

when I was going to freeze my eggs in 20, I think like 2021, maybe.

i think that was the year they we talked about the whole process and they said that they would not when i was ready they were never gonna put in more than one oh wow yeah so i don't know if it's all of delaware but at least where i where i went in delaware they weren't going to um okay you told the producers of the show that you wanted to talk about your eating disorder on the show and you said this because you hoped it would hold you hold you accountable yes looking back i think we sort of talked about it already but do you think that that was that it worked i knew that if i came forward and said, I'm really sick and I've got to get over my eating disorder, I wasn't going to show all the people watching

that

it was too hard.

I would never do that.

So, I knew that if I was going to commit to putting this on the show, I was going to recover no matter what it took.

I mean, that takes a lot of self-awareness to know and to be committed to that.

Um, reality TV has its pros and cons, but sometimes there are good times, obviously.

What was your favorite moment that you can remember about filming Real Housewives?

Um, The first few years of it were really fun.

I think I loved my kids' birthday party in the driveway.

It was a beautiful day.

The kids were so young.

The ones that just turned 17, it was their 11th birthday.

And we just had a really fun party and half the cast was there.

A lot of my real life friends were there.

Everyone was in a good mood.

I was close with the producers.

And like, I got to, I got to capture my kids' entire birthday party on camera.

And I just, I just remember feeling like this ain't so bad.

Yeah, you know, yeah, there are definitely glimmers of like where you're just so thankful.

I feel like, um, you know, we saw a lot of highs and lows of, you know, with your friendships on the show, but how does that translate into real life?

Like, when you have drama on the show with someone, is it very real in real life?

Or did it sort of was the work dissipate?

Oh, it is so real in real life.

Well, it depends.

The problem with New Jersey is that people think take things too far in real life.

It's like, if we have a fight fight on the show, when filming is done, leave me alone.

You know, I, I've, there, there was a certain cast member who went on like a rampage tour of bad mouthing me on like every post show.

Yeah.

And like, I was just like, leave me alone already.

Yeah.

Like at that point, it's like, this is for Easy.

Like, let's just.

Like, every time I turn on the fucking internet, like, uh, turn on Instagram, turn on the internet.

You see what happens when you get 50?

This is how I know I'm fucking old.

That's something my mother would say.

Every time I turn on Instagram, it would be like another, it was be like my floating fucking head with like a headline about like what this person said about me.

And I was just like,

that's the parts that suck.

Yeah.

You know, because I'm not even getting paid for it.

You know, right?

And I have to watch everyone trash and then you read the comments and that's all.

The worst thing that we can do.

I hate reading comments.

I won't even look because at this point, I will go down a rabbit hole of comments and they're worse.

They're worse than the actual headline.

No, I know, but then I'll read the comments on like other people's articles and they're just as fucking bad.

So like, I think everyone gets, there's very few people on reality TV.

There are some that like everyone loves.

Like I don't think I've ever seen like a thing blasting Paige DeSorbo, right?

Yeah, ever.

I don't think so.

Everyone loves her.

I don't watch her show, but like it seems like she is doing something very right.

But

most people get the shit beat out of them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would say I agree with that.

I would definitely agree with that.

Well, I think everyone can get your book from Barnes and Noble, Amazon, anywhere you can buy your books.

And is there anything else that you want to plug right now?

No, but also I recorded the audible myself so you could listen to it.

Everyone in the book listening tuned

absolutely loves when people narrate their own books.

Yeah, and I loved narrating.

Will you narrate your novel?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

For sure.

Oh, I'm so excited for the novel.

When the novel comes out, I'm going to come back.

Okay, perfect.

But

what else am I promoting right now?

I do a lot of,

I love talking about eating disorders and recovery.

I'm like, anyone could reach out to me at any time.

I'll answer you.

but um,

no, just look for me on Instagram, Jackie Gold Schneider, and buy my book.

You'll love it.

It's not just about eating disorders, really like a story about kind of losing yourself, especially in mental illness, and finding your way back, clawing your way back.

Awesome.

Well, thank you for coming on Barely Babies.

Thank you so much for having me.

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