From Isaac to Elliott: A Story About Identity and Boundaries

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Speaker 8 Welcome to the shit show.

Speaker 9 Things are going to get weird. Get weird.

Speaker 8 It's your fae villain, Kale Laflower, and you're listening to Barely Famous.

Speaker 8 Happy Friday, everyone. Welcome to Barely Famous.
Kristen's sitting with Elliot and myself for this episode. And she's not on camera, but she will be interviewing us for Elliot's episode.

Speaker 8 Happy Pride, everyone. I'm super excited to sit here with my son, Elliot, and Isaac is going by Elliot now.

Speaker 8 We'll talk about why I didn't wear any makeup today because I figured I'd probably cry at some point and

Speaker 8 it's probably best just to go in fresh face. I'm super excited and also nervous, apprehensive a little bit because obviously this is a very sensitive subject or

Speaker 8 maybe should be treated with care.

Speaker 8 I have some reservations about what we're discussing today because obviously this is my son and and I don't want to ever put a target on his back or put him in a dangerous position but with that being said still want him to live his truth and live authentically and be proud of who he is because we're all proud of him and

Speaker 4 don't cry already I love you.

Speaker 8 And I'm not crying because I don't want to do this. I'm just crying because this is a really, this shows your strength.
And

Speaker 8 I'm just really proud of you it's a really brave thing to do because not everyone

Speaker 8 can or wants to or has the safe space to live authentically like themselves and so it's just

Speaker 8 tears of

Speaker 8 pride

Speaker 10 truly

Speaker 8 being proud of you and

Speaker 12 you know

Speaker 8 I know that we've we've faced a lot of challenges leading up to this point. And

Speaker 8 not that I ever didn't want you to share who you are with the world, but I just, out of protection, wanted to make sure it was the right time in the right place and in the right way.

Speaker 8 Because I think a lot of times I have wanted to say things about myself or explain myself or prove everybody wrong in some way. And my friends will be like, Kale, just wait.

Speaker 8 Like there's a right time and there's a right place and there's a right way to do it.

Speaker 8 And you're going to regret it if you do it any other way so just sleep on it give it some time and i feel like that's exactly what we're doing today is finally being able to share your story on your terms in your words and not letting other people influence your decision or take away your autonomy and your ability to share your own story so it's going to be an emotional episode 90 seconds in already crying so i'm just proud of you and i hope that it maybe this will help somebody watching the story like look at someone that they love, and maybe they have been homophobic or haven't been supportive of someone

Speaker 8 being gay or part of the queer community.

Speaker 8 I really hope that this will challenge them and cause them to self-reflect a little bit and understand that, like, it doesn't matter who you love at the end of the day, like, as long as you're happy and safe, like, that is the goal, right?

Speaker 8 Like, life is hard enough. I don't

Speaker 8 get it, and I have just loved you through all of it, through everything.

Speaker 8 So that's my little, those are my feelings.

Speaker 11 Happy Pride, everybody. I'm very nervous for this episode.
I'm here today to

Speaker 11 show you who I am, not who you saw on TV for 12 years of my life.

Speaker 11 And it's very important to me because I feel like growing up on TV, it's hard to show who you really are when a camera is in front of you all the time.

Speaker 11 It's almost like you you have like a it's like a TV face, you know? It's harder to be yourself and to be more comfortable than because it's going to be everywhere, all over the internet. It's also

Speaker 11 weird because people

Speaker 11 will take what's online and

Speaker 11 make it their own and not it's not the truth always.

Speaker 11 So I'm here today to show who I am. Going into this, I was pretty confident.

Speaker 11 I'm definitely ready, but stepping into it, I felt a little nervous. But I think it's important to talk about.
Let's get it going.

Speaker 8 This is going to be emotional. I have no makeup on because I know I'm going to cry.
So, are you excited? Are you nervous?

Speaker 11 Yeah, I'm...

Speaker 11 I'm glad it's with the people that it's with because it makes me more comfortable.

Speaker 8 There's talking about it. Alessandra, myself, Kristen, and Elliot in the room.

Speaker 9 We've got a nice little closed production today. Yes.

Speaker 9 Elliot, it was super important for you to set some expectations with the listeners and viewers of this episode. Do you want to go into a little bit of detail about that?

Speaker 11 Yes, I really want to make it clear that this is

Speaker 11 for me.

Speaker 11 And

Speaker 11 for all the people that say things like,

Speaker 11 oh, we always knew, or we,

Speaker 11 or,

Speaker 11 oh, I bet his dad doesn't like this. Like, things like that is not necessary and I want it to be clear that this is for me and

Speaker 11 I've built up the courage over time to make it

Speaker 11 known and

Speaker 11 let me have my moment I'm really sick of

Speaker 11 people coming up with their own stories and like putting things in their own words

Speaker 11 and

Speaker 11 things coming out on other people's terms about me because my life isn't entertainment for other people. My life is my life.

Speaker 11 Like I can do what I want with it. And

Speaker 11 for people to take things from my life, like personal stuff,

Speaker 11 is

Speaker 11 not okay.

Speaker 11 It's

Speaker 11 if I want to share that, I should share that on my terms.

Speaker 8 Agree.

Speaker 9 We got to have a phone conversation about what you wanted to talk about in in this episode.

Speaker 9 And something that you shared was that it's really important to you to enforce boundaries within your private life. And you're also trying to do that within your public life now.

Speaker 9 Do you want to talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 11 Yeah, I think,

Speaker 11 well, for me, it's important to have a private life because it's like...

Speaker 11 If I'm just like all over the internet all the time and have no social life with people around me, like that's like,

Speaker 11 what is that? you know? Like, it's very important to me to have a private life too.

Speaker 11 So

Speaker 11 I feel like it's important to have boundaries within that. Even for people that I know personally that know about me being on TV and stuff, like boundaries for them to not

Speaker 11 share my personal life with the world. And just anybody, like fans, like don't take

Speaker 11 something

Speaker 11 that that I share with my personal life and put it publicly.

Speaker 11 But at the same time,

Speaker 11 I also have to be more cautious of that.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I think

Speaker 8 some of the conversations that you and I have been having lately is that there is a difference between your private life and your public life and you have every right to hold on to certain things to keep them private and to put out whatever it is that you want to put out.

Speaker 8 However, I have tried to explain to Elliot these last several months is that whatever you share on a private platform, unfortunately, will also get leaked.

Speaker 8 So, your private internet life is not actually a private life, right? And so,

Speaker 8 you know, I have a private Facebook page that I don't add anyone to, but I understand that even though those are all people I know in real life and I don't add anyone I don't know, that's still very possible.

Speaker 8 I still have to be even careful with that because because that can also get out, and it has.

Speaker 8 And so, trying to explain that to Elliot has been a little bit challenging because we feel like we can trust the people in our lives, but I think that it's become very apparent over the last several months, if not a year, that that's not the case.

Speaker 8 And so, you're trying to find the balance of what you want to share because just because you grew up on TV doesn't mean that you necessarily want to put all your business out there like I do.

Speaker 8 And I don't want anyone to ever think that I am teaching you to put all your business out there. It's like,

Speaker 8 whatever you choose for yourself should be respected by, you know, the listeners, the viewers.

Speaker 8 And I think that there is a world where people can love you for putting out what you want to put out and not necessarily putting all of it out.

Speaker 8 You don't, they people can love you and not expect you to sell your soul to social media.

Speaker 13 Right.

Speaker 11 And I agree with that.

Speaker 9 Kayla, you said something really interesting that you want to put

Speaker 9 all of your stuff out there.

Speaker 9 Do you feel like that's actually the case or do you feel like you have to before someone else does?

Speaker 8 I do feel like, for my specific situation, that I have to put all my business out there and I have to go to extra lengths to film certain things before it gets out by other people.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I don't want my son to live in a world where that's the case, but I do understand that that is the case. We are in a very unique situation where

Speaker 8 we,

Speaker 8 I mean, just to use my own life as an example, right? Like, it's usually because if I don't, someone else will. It's sort of like my pregnancies.
All my pregnancies have been leaked. So, for you,

Speaker 8 I think there's a way to do it where it's private, but it's not a secret.

Speaker 11 Right. Like, you want to have some sense of control and to put it out before someone else does.
That's your control.

Speaker 8 Agreed. And for you, that's what I would hope for is that, but people will respect it.
And I think so often to have boundaries.

Speaker 8 Yeah, just having boundaries surrounding it. But

Speaker 8 boundaries are for us not for other people that just because we put them and say these are our boundaries doesn't mean that they're going to follow them and so that's sort of what i've been trying to explain to you is like the boundaries are not for other people they're for you right and that's hard

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Speaker 11 I have a question for you. Do you...

Speaker 8 Since when are you the host of this?

Speaker 11 Do you think that it's a little too late to set boundaries for yourself?

Speaker 8 Sometimes. Yeah.
Sometimes I think that I've set the tone and there would be so much work to undo

Speaker 8 and so much reworking and rebranding and re-everything to set boundaries now. Like, I literally talk about shitting myself on the podcast.
Like, there are no boundaries in Kill Out World.

Speaker 2 So, right.

Speaker 8 Um, if anything, maybe it will help you learn what to do and what not to do. And you can understand how much are you willing to share and set that tone right away, set the bar right where you want it.

Speaker 8 And so, for me, it's like I've already shared so, so, so, so, so much. When I scale back, people think, oh, she's keeping secrets.

Speaker 8 But really, it's, I want to try to maintain some sense of like normalcy or privacy.

Speaker 11 Do you think, though, that people will think you're keeping secrets no matter what?

Speaker 8 Yeah, they think I lie. They think I'm keeping secrets.
And that's like, you can't help people's perception, but that will happen to you too.

Speaker 8 So you have to be careful and have to be sort of methodic on how you want to approach everything.

Speaker 9 Elliot, do you feel like watching your mom go through this, at what point do you feel like you started paying attention to the things that she goes through, specifically on social media?

Speaker 9 Take the TV out of it and like the filming aspect. But at what point do you feel like you started paying attention and deciding for yourself when you decided to go on social media?

Speaker 9 I want to operate this way. I don't want to operate that way.
Maybe in your personal life, you talked about the boundaries that you have for the people around you.

Speaker 9 When did you decide to start having those and like implementing them?

Speaker 11 I started noticing

Speaker 11 things

Speaker 11 like with you and started learning from you and what you've gone through and what you post and what's on the internet of you.

Speaker 11 Somewhat recently, like maybe a bit over a year ago, I noticed thing

Speaker 11 just things of that nature and

Speaker 11 it helps me build a strong sense of what to do in certain situations. I think that it has helped me a lot seeing through your eyes how you do things.
It helps me do it better. You know what I mean?

Speaker 8 Well, I think there's a difference between like an influencer, a content creator, and then someone like me who literally shares everything.

Speaker 8 And I think that you've watched and you've seen rumors about me that you know are not true.

Speaker 8 And so

Speaker 8 you kind of get to look at the bigger picture and decide what you want for yourself. when people are not deciding what they want for you and taking it and running.

Speaker 9 For when you decided to start having your boundaries within your your personal life, at what point do you feel like you gained the confidence to start doing that and implement those?

Speaker 9 And was it because of things that you've watched or was it like you were like, I need this for myself?

Speaker 11 I decided for myself to

Speaker 11 set boundaries more recently.

Speaker 8 When you say set boundaries, what does that mean for you? Like when, because I think that we need to make that very clear, what are your boundaries?

Speaker 8 Like, are you saying that you're not going to talk about your personal life?

Speaker 8 Are you saying that you'll speak on things when you want, that you really don't want to to put your personal life out there? Like,

Speaker 8 what are the boundaries to you?

Speaker 11 Boundaries to me are

Speaker 11 I'm going to share what I want to share when I want to share it. You know, I'm not going to share everything on the internet, but I'm also not going to share nothing on the internet.

Speaker 11 So I think it just needs to be a sense of

Speaker 11 respect.

Speaker 11 Like...

Speaker 8 You don't want people commenting saying

Speaker 8 what you should share, what you shouldn't share, what they think of you. You don't want any of that.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and I also don't like when people of my personal life go into those comment sections and put things out there that I did not share myself. And I've seen things like that before.

Speaker 8 I had words with two people specifically. who did not come to me and they re-shared stuff about you that really pissed me off.
I blocked them. I told them, don't ever fucking talk to me again.

Speaker 8 Because at the point that you and I did not share them and you did not share them, what the fuck made you think that that was okay for you to reshare that without talking to me and confirming with me?

Speaker 8 It did not come from either one of us. Right.
I think those are fair boundaries. And those, what's understood should not have to be explained.

Speaker 8 But for some reason, we're sitting here and like explaining. And I think the cool thing about Patreon, like the people who are on this Patreon, it's real.
They are.

Speaker 8 respectful and they have been patient and they know that you're going to share and I'm going to share what we want to share. And they're the ones who are supporting you.

Speaker 8 And they're the ones who are going to support you, whether you decide to share what's in your personal life or you don't. They're just here to support you.

Speaker 8 And I love that about this community specifically because they're not pressuring you. I see their comments.
I read what they have to say. I know, I see their feedback and they're not.

Speaker 8 they don't expect you to just share everything. And I think that's what, that's the community that we want to continue to build off of.

Speaker 8 And obviously, we know that the internet comes with trolls and the internet comes with people who are hateful and they want to, they prey on downfalls.

Speaker 8 But I think for this community itself, like we're not really speaking to you guys, we're sort of speaking to everybody else who is not being respectful of a minor, right?

Speaker 8 Like at the end of the day, you are a minor.

Speaker 8 For people to go on social media and talk about your sexuality or to talk about, you know, people in your personal life, your friends on their social media is, to me, crazy because you are a minor and your friends are minors.

Speaker 11 It's also hard because people who aren't in the public eye don't understand.

Speaker 11 So it's hard for us to

Speaker 11 explain to them like boundaries and stuff and have them

Speaker 11 understand

Speaker 11 them.

Speaker 11 You know, like.

Speaker 8 So some will argue, then why be online at all? Yeah, exactly. Well, I think it's a catch-22, which is what we were talking about before we started rolling.

Speaker 8 It's like it is a catch-22 because we have created a safe space within this community on Patreon and most of the Kale Lowry universe, we'll call it.

Speaker 8 We've created a safe space, but there are obviously gonna be trolls that infiltrate that somehow it's a catch-22 for you too because you're in a weird position where you're like a pseudo-nepo baby and you have the ability to like make money on social media at 15 years old and you have the ability to share your passions for you know like asl and pride and like just be a regular kid on social media because so many regular kids have social media but then what is the balance like yeah And I think it's just trying to figure out what that balance is, you know, in this unique position that you're in.

Speaker 11 And that's the only thing I've ever wanted, really. I really want a balance of my personal and public life.
And it's hard to do that when you can't really, you can't go back, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 8 And that's a fair ask, I feel. It's very, it's valid.

Speaker 9 Speaking of Catch 22's Kale, as his mom, but also as a public figure yourself, this entire episode, but also Elliot's life on TV, social media, what is this like for you?

Speaker 9 To like know it, but then also have a child that wants to go through it. So you're looking at it as a parent.
What is this like for you?

Speaker 8 It's been a roller coaster because obviously I'm so proud of him. I'm so proud of you.
And I want people to see you and like know you and feel your energy.

Speaker 8 And like you're so passionate about things that people, I think, overlook. And so on one hand, I like want you to do all the things, right?

Speaker 8 Like you have a real opportunity to impact people's lives in a really important way. But on the other side of it, like I understand what comes with that.

Speaker 8 And I just want to protect you from all of those things. And it's hard because I don't, and I'm speaking for the entire cast.

Speaker 8 And I hope they don't get mad at me for saying this, but I truly don't think that any of us understood the implications and impact of what we would have on our children.

Speaker 8 And at the end of the day, like

Speaker 8 we weren't thinking that we were exploiting our children.

Speaker 8 For myself, I signed up for this show out of pure desperation and needing money and needing to figure out a way out of the situation that I was in.

Speaker 8 I don't think that I ever thought about where we would be in 15 years. I thought it was right now.
I'm going to get paid. I'm going to figure this out and I'll get my life together for my son.
And so

Speaker 8 I have a hard time now because

Speaker 8 I know the benefits of social media. I understand the benefits of being a public figure, the opportunities that can come from it.
But I also know where that leaves us mentally sometimes.

Speaker 8 It can be draining. It could be so many good things, but it can be so many bad things.
And so as your mom, I want to protect you.

Speaker 8 And I want you, I want to be able to say, okay, that's great, but don't do this, this, and this. But I also understand as a human being that sometimes we have to learn the fucking hard way.

Speaker 8 We got to do it ourselves to learn that lesson. And sometimes it's the same lesson over and over again until you fucking get it.

Speaker 8 And so.

Speaker 8 I don't know.

Speaker 8 It's a really weird place to be because I know so many people that I've talked to on Barely Famous that have been like, I would never let my child be a part of this industry or my child's never getting social media.

Speaker 8 Or I understand all sides of it. And I think that no one situation is alike necessarily.
But I know for you, there's a place for you to be passionate about ASL online.

Speaker 8 And there's a passion, there's a place for you to be passionate about your vinyl collection. And there's, you know, room for you to do all the things that you want to do on social media.

Speaker 8 And there's a balance. But I think that we, we do really need people to find it.
Yeah, to find your balance, but also for people to respect that. Like you are a child.

Speaker 8 So I say all that to say that it's been a really hard

Speaker 8 place for me to be in as a parent and a public figure at the same time for you.

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Speaker 11 To go back on what you said about not thinking about,

Speaker 11 you know, what it would be like in 15 years when you were a teenager, my age, being on the show or trying to get on the show, I can also see that it's

Speaker 11 not

Speaker 11 something that someone your age at the time would think about.

Speaker 8 Social media wasn't out there the same way it is now. So if I was 16 and pregnant today,

Speaker 8 it would be different. I would have a, I think, I would like to think that I would look at it from a different perspective because

Speaker 8 I could see all the apps, all the internet, all the trolls, all the forums, all the things. Back then, Instagram came out after you were born.
Or I got on Instagram after you were born.

Speaker 8 So it was very different. And so I think that also played a part.
Do you ever feel resentment because I had us on TV your whole life? Like, do you get upset with me or angry with me ever?

Speaker 11 No, I.

Speaker 8 It's okay if you have this.

Speaker 11 No, I don't. I really, I really don't.
I might feel like

Speaker 11 that we were on it for so long, but at the same time,

Speaker 11 I oh, I try my best to look at the positives, and we wouldn't be right here in this moment if it wasn't for everything you've done. You know?

Speaker 11 And

Speaker 11 I just couldn't see it another way. And I'm really grateful for you.

Speaker 11 You're like the only person that I ever...

Speaker 11 You're the only person I need.

Speaker 8 We stopped rolling. You asked me if it was important for you to share this.

Speaker 8 And what was it?

Speaker 11 It was about taking pictures with people.

Speaker 8 When people come up to us in public, I don't mind. I'm an adult.

Speaker 8 I have, you know i can make my own decisions but we have come across times where people be like isa get in it or they'll physically grab him oh yeah specifically the jelly roll concert in philly that lady yeah physically grabbed him to be in the picture that's not okay and um just respectfully you know keep in mind he is a child and he's a minor and and

Speaker 8 he's probably gonna say no regardless he doesn't like to be in pictures

Speaker 11 i think over time

Speaker 11 like at some point

Speaker 11 but not as a child later in life i think like at some point i'll be okay with it but now i love talking to people and just come up to me don't touch him yeah don't touch me don't touch me but with pictures come up to me and ask but

Speaker 8 where i am now i probably will say no well i think it's hard too because i mean we don't know where these pictures are going we don't get to see them if they're on somebody else's phone we don't get to see them so it's like, we don't know where they're going.

Speaker 8 And like,

Speaker 8 I have three chins sometimes. So I don't want, if I have, it's an ugly angle, I don't want it to get posted, but people get so excited.
And I know, I get it. Like, I do.
But he's a child, you know.

Speaker 8 they go through puberty. They're going through their own little, you know, identity things and trying to figure out who they are.
They don't want pictures like that on the internet.

Speaker 9 Truly, with the rise of AI that can do anything with any image.

Speaker 8 That's terrifying.

Speaker 9 And that's another, that's another thing.

Speaker 8 And so we're, we're not saying this to be mean and say like, we're not thankful for you guys because they think what you're saying is like, you love to talk to people.

Speaker 11 I love it.

Speaker 8 But the pictures, it's hard. It's AI is so powerful, but also so scary.
It is. You know, we're not saying it to be rude or not thankful for you guys.

Speaker 10 It's just, you know, keep in mind he's a minor. Yeah.

Speaker 9 Have a conversation, keep spatial awareness. And that goes for not even just you, not even just your mom,

Speaker 9 anybody in general. You see somebody that you are absolutely loving, their content or their media presence or an actor an actress It does not matter.
Yeah, just don't grab anyone. Don't grab an adult.

Speaker 9 Don't grab an elderly individual. Don't grab children.
Don't grab a pregnant belly. Don't grab anything.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Don't do it.

Speaker 9 Not even animals. Let's not touch animals.
You know, like, we'll just don't do it. No touching.

Speaker 10 Agreed.

Speaker 9 Love that. Yeah.

Speaker 11 Also, I, it does make me uncomfortable when people take pictures from afar.

Speaker 11 I, I prefer if you would come up to me.

Speaker 8 We know you're excited. Yeah.
But he's still a human being.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 11 But the way I think of it, like, I feel you, like, I understand. Like, if I were to freaking come across Post Malone in public,

Speaker 11 like, you know, like, I would feel the same way. But you have to think, like, we are still human.
We still have feelings. We're not robots.
So

Speaker 11 just come up to us, have a conversation. And I'm comfortable.
I'm cool.

Speaker 9 Elliot, we're obviously referencing you as Elliot.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 9 And that's what you would like to be called moving forward. And that's what we all call you in your personal life.
Can you share with us why you go by Elliot now?

Speaker 11 I started going by Elliot because at some point I wasn't happy with my first name. I don't know.
Like I just, not because

Speaker 2 I don't, I don't know.

Speaker 11 Like it just doesn't feel like me or in some way.

Speaker 8 Can I share why I

Speaker 8 thought you were not doing Isaac? Huh? To build a separation between your life on teen mom and who you are today.

Speaker 11 Yeah, no, that's part of it.

Speaker 8 Okay, yeah, that's why I thought that we, I mean, and I don't really remember the conversation. I just know that, like,

Speaker 8 Elliot started coming home and like all his teachers, so you started going to a new high school. It wasn't the high school that you like would have gone to.

Speaker 8 Um, the paperwork all said Elliot, like, the teachers were writing Elliot, and it was like comments about Elliot. And I was like, wait a minute, are we going by Elliot now? Yeah.

Speaker 8 And it's so funny because it's hard once you know somebody has a certain name right like

Speaker 8 especially if it's family my childhood people all you know my mom's whole side of my family even my my dad's side of the family calls me kaylin like it will never be kale yeah

Speaker 8 i got the nickname kale when i was in eighth grade and it's stuck ever since so for me i don't if you call me kalen you must have known me from my childhood yeah so for you Everyone's always called you Isaac.

Speaker 8 So now retraining our brains to call you Elliot, obviously we're getting used to it.

Speaker 11 But Creed

Speaker 11 started

Speaker 8 recently. He's four and he started calling you Elliot.
And it's so funny. He's like, who, my brother, Elliot? And I'm like, first of all,

Speaker 8 how easy was that for him? But like, I think I can appreciate the separation between

Speaker 8 who you were and who you are today. I think that that is cool for you to recognize.
It's cool for you to sort of decide what makes you comfortable. Yeah.
And that was your decision.

Speaker 8 So when you go to your dad's house, are they calling you Elliot too? Or no? No.

Speaker 11 I don't don't expect that from them.

Speaker 10 Okay.

Speaker 11 I didn't expect it from you either. Like, I didn't think like, oh, you have to call me Elliot.
I don't take any other name.

Speaker 11 But like, I would have been fine if you kept calling me Isaac because I know that

Speaker 11 like it would be hard for that transition would have been hard and it was a bit.

Speaker 11 Because,

Speaker 11 I mean, called me by my first name my whole life, you know?

Speaker 11 Yeah, I think the separation from my personal and private life or who I was on TV from who I am now, that's like the main reason.

Speaker 11 But at some point, I don't know, I just realized like, I like my middle name better, you know? Fair. Like,

Speaker 8 fair. I couldn't think of a, I wanted your first name to be Elliot, but I couldn't think of a middle name at that time.
If I could go back, I'd name you Elliot Ace.

Speaker 4 I like that.

Speaker 8 Yeah, that would be what I would have named you.

Speaker 13 I like that.

Speaker 8 Because I didn't,

Speaker 8 Isaac is cool.

Speaker 9 Does it bother you

Speaker 9 when people that you've told you want to be called Elliot to don't do that?

Speaker 8 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 11 Yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 11 I mean, like, I can't force you to call me by my middle name, but it does bother me when it's kind of like, well, I mean,

Speaker 11 it doesn't bother me that much.

Speaker 11 But it like it and it's not that big of a deal, but it also kind of does feel like

Speaker 11 a boundary thing.

Speaker 11 I get that a little bit, you know.

Speaker 8 When people call me Kaylin today, obviously, there's you can call me that,

Speaker 8 but Kristen can call me whatever she wants.

Speaker 8 Um, but like, when certain people refer to me as Kaylin, I'm like, you don't have a right to call me that, like, it's weird, it's so weird, it's not who I am.

Speaker 8 It is, but it's, I get it, I get what you're saying.

Speaker 11 It also makes me more comfortable around you if you call me by my middle name, you know. Like, if somebody at school called me Isaac, I'm like, hey, like, you know?

Speaker 8 You don't know me.

Speaker 11 Yeah, you don't know me.

Speaker 11 Like,

Speaker 11 you know?

Speaker 11 Unless it's someone that knew me before I started going by that, then it's fine, you know? Relatable. If you were calling me Isaac, that's fine.
Or if it was, like,

Speaker 11 my two best friends from school, from

Speaker 11 my old school,

Speaker 11 I would have been fine. I'm fine with that.
Right. You know?

Speaker 8 No, that makes sense to me.

Speaker 9 When you say to someone, you know, my name's Elliot, and they've known you as Isaac and they actively just choose not to use Elliot, do you view it as disrespect?

Speaker 11 I think I would. A little bit, yeah.
But unless I knew them before I started going by that. But at the same time,

Speaker 11 if everyone around me or if everyone around them is calling me Elliot,

Speaker 11 you know, like it's kind of like

Speaker 11 it's hard. Sometimes it can be hard to like listen for two names, you know

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Speaker 11 elliot what kind of support do young people like yourself need when making the decision to come out do you even feel like it's necessary to actually come out what are your thoughts around that i don't think it's necessary to come out i mean i'm doing it for me so you can do what you want like if you feel it's necessary to come out then do it but if you don't then just be yourself you know like you don't have to prove anything to anyone so just be be who you are and be true to yourself.

Speaker 11 At the end of the day, it's for you.

Speaker 8 There's so many things I want to say. There's specifically to this.

Speaker 8 Nobody wakes up and tells their family they're straight.

Speaker 8 Literally nobody.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 8 The other thing is

Speaker 8 I

Speaker 8 the being born gay versus choosing to be gay. Are you choosing to be straight? Because last time I chat, when you are straight, you just wake up and you're straight.

Speaker 8 So why would it be different for someone who's nobody's choosing to put themselves in a place where they're facing adversity and dangerous situations?

Speaker 8 Nobody's choosing to put themselves in a position where their family is kicking them out and they're on the streets. Nobody is choosing that.
And so, I really just cannot encourage you guys enough.

Speaker 8 And I'm speaking to the adults who are having children or maybe have family members that are homophobic. I'm speaking to you guys.

Speaker 8 It's like, one, maybe don't have kids if you're not going to love them unconditionally. That's not a one.

Speaker 8 And number two,

Speaker 8 your child is not choosing this. This is something that is they're born with.

Speaker 8 I believe they're born with. And so if you don't like what I have to say, I encourage you to do some research to really look into it and understand why you just feel like it's wrong.

Speaker 8 Like that is the only reason. Like you feel like it's not natural, but it is.

Speaker 8 Because if it wasn't, nobody would choose just to be gay. Just to be gay.

Speaker 11 Nobody would do that

Speaker 11 with

Speaker 2 the

Speaker 11 things that people go through with that. You know, like

Speaker 11 You're gonna choose the easy route.

Speaker 9 What kind of support do you feel like you've had that other kids do not have and could use? Like, any I don't want to say tips, but for parents out there, like how

Speaker 8 How best can we support our children who are part of the queer community?

Speaker 11 I don't know. There's not much you can say.
Like, just love them unconditionally, be and let them be who they are and maybe

Speaker 11 make a comfortable environment with them

Speaker 11 you know like make sure that they feel safe and protected and happy and comfortable around you i think it's important to make sure that you are

Speaker 11 aware of certain things like maybe have a conversation with them yeah i don't know there's i feel like it's but easier said than done it's easier said than done i also think that people are homophobic and don't realize they're homophobic.

Speaker 8 They don't understand why they're they're homophobic. They just have been taught their whole lives that it's not natural and to be gay or to be part of the queer community.

Speaker 8 And I think that they have to understand that first. And that takes a certain level of self-awareness to even get to that point.
And so there's a lot of work that needs to be done.

Speaker 8 But like I said earlier, I think when you have kids, you have to choose to love them unconditionally because you cannot control who they love. You cannot control what their sexuality is.

Speaker 8 And for me, I never gave a fuck.

Speaker 8 If you came home and told me that you wanted to marry a woman, cool. You tell me you want to marry a man, cool.

Speaker 8 I don't give a fuck because at the end of the day, that part does not affect me or my life. It only affects you and who you love is who you love.
At the end of the day,

Speaker 8 I'm not going to sever a relationship with my child based off of who he loves or doesn't love.

Speaker 13 Right.

Speaker 8 I'm not going to forfeit a relationship with you. because I don't, but I also don't think that way either.
Like, I am also, I love who I love. I've been with women.
I've been with men. Right.
So.

Speaker 11 Actually, I do have something. I think that it's important for parents to, if they're not comfortable or don't know how to approach it or

Speaker 11 don't know how to make their child comfortable,

Speaker 11 immerse yourself in the community.

Speaker 11 Go to a pride event or talk to somebody that's gay.

Speaker 8 Because sometimes you don't even know someone's gay. Yeah.
They're just like the rest of us.

Speaker 2 Exactly.

Speaker 8 I think that there is a stigma surrounding the queer community, the gay community that is like, they're, you're different, but you're really.

Speaker 11 Think about it. Like you grew up watching me.

Speaker 11 I mean,

Speaker 8 and people know and love you.

Speaker 11 Yeah, exactly. So the way you

Speaker 11 like watch me online, like

Speaker 11 love your child.

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 8 I also think that there are some people who, it's fine when it's someone else's kid.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 8 It's fine when it's someone else's kid until their kid is part of the queer community.

Speaker 8 And I, again, like, I can't put myself there because I don't have those same like thoughts or concerns, just like I just never cared.

Speaker 11 But I think it's just hard because you have to experience it to understand, like, you have to, like, because some people are born and raised homophobic, yeah, and they don't, it's like implicit, like, they don't realize, yeah, and that's not okay, but also, right, and there's no room for their own opinion, so like

Speaker 11 I think

Speaker 11 the first step is just trying to

Speaker 11 like

Speaker 11 try to build comfort and try to

Speaker 11 immerse yourself in the community. Try to like, you just have to realize that we're not different.

Speaker 8 We're just regular people. How did you know

Speaker 8 that I was a safe space for you to be yourself and to be gay? Like, how did you know that you could trust me or that you could talk to me or tell me? Or how did you know? Like, what was it?

Speaker 13 Well, don't cry again.

Speaker 11 I don't know if it will make you cry, but I mean,

Speaker 11 I guess I've just always been comfortable around you. You've always made me feel comfortable around you.
I've never felt like I couldn't tell you something, or

Speaker 11 like you just made a good environment for me. And

Speaker 11 like, I've always

Speaker 11 been able to come to you about things you know and but but how do you know that

Speaker 11 just I don't know you just

Speaker 11 I can just

Speaker 11 feel like myself around you you know like

Speaker 11 you know

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Speaker 8 And what about your brothers? Did you feel the same way about them?

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Because I don't think they care.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Although Lux thought you twerked, that meant you were gay.

Speaker 11 I remember that.

Speaker 8 Do you ever twerk?

Speaker 11 No.

Speaker 8 Just for the record, Lux, that's for you, babe.

Speaker 11 That's for you. I don't know how to twerk.

Speaker 8 I don't think Lincoln ever cared either. No.

Speaker 11 I feel like, yeah, like they just look at me and they're like, oh, that's my brother. It doesn't matter if he's gay.

Speaker 8 It's my brother. It's not contagious.
Like, I think people are worried too. Like, oh, like.

Speaker 11 A lot of stray guys, especially.

Speaker 8 Interesting. But,

Speaker 8 okay, that's interesting.

Speaker 9 That's, in my opinion, because people,

Speaker 9 it's, there's still a stigma around it and it goes against like the nuclear family bullshit that we're all fed from a very, very young age and that it's like a, like it's wrong if you're gay, or it's like

Speaker 9 it's a very weird thing, at least coming from me as a straight person. I see it to me.
It's also like, it's mostly coming from people that are not comfortable within their own sexuality. Right.

Speaker 9 That perpetuate it.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah.
I would agree with that. It's so interesting, though, because I'm like, there are people who don't want their kids around gay people or whatever.

Speaker 8 And it's like, but my kids are around, my other sons are around you.

Speaker 8 You're gay and they're not. And they're not affected by it.
They don't care. If anything, they'll just ask you questions because they don't know.
But it's almost like

Speaker 8 normalizing it for them because they don't think any different of you. You're just their brother.

Speaker 11 Yeah. And I also think that

Speaker 11 just because they're around me doesn't, it's not contagious. Like you said, like they're not going to turn gay because of me.
They're, if they're gay, they're all, they were born that way.

Speaker 8 You know, do you feel as though I did anything or your dad did anything in your childhood to make you gay?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 11 absolutely not.

Speaker 8 People have said

Speaker 8 that you weren't around your dad enough, or I, you know, was doing certain things in my parenthood that turned you gay. Do you feel like any of that is true?

Speaker 11 No.

Speaker 11 And like,

Speaker 11 I mean, I have had 50-50 cussity. It's 50-50 cussy, so been with my mom and my dad equally.
I think that people confuse like

Speaker 11 who they're around, like the parent. Um

Speaker 11 they confuse it with like masculinity, you know, like it's not about sexuality. It's about how masculine slash feminine they are.

Speaker 8 So to you, when you look at a man or a woman, what is masculine to you for your generation? What would you say is masculine?

Speaker 9 Or with your generation, have they taken those roles and the stereotypes more out of it than how your mom and I grew up?

Speaker 9 Like, is it looked at the same where everything your mom just explained about Elijah? Do you even identify that as masculine in your generation? Because you might not.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 13 Okay.

Speaker 9 So some of it still bled through to your generation, but some of it is not necessarily identifying this trait as masculine or feminine.

Speaker 9 Like if you saw a man

Speaker 9 crying, would you say that they're feminine or would you say they're just crying?

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Okay. so men crying in our generation, millennials, is not normal.

Speaker 2 It should be. It should be.

Speaker 8 And that's why. And that's why part of this is good for this entire conversation is like how we view masculinity versus femininity.

Speaker 11 I don't even think that you can be like, I don't think anyone is just masculine or just feminine. And I would, well, I think everyone has

Speaker 8 traits and qualities of both.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Well, so your generation is more so deconstructing the gender roles and the stigma surrounding masculine energy or masculine behaviors versus feminine behaviors and things of that nature.

Speaker 8 I think that your generation is deconstructing that where, and millennials too. I think millennials are starting to break down.

Speaker 8 But for me, like I grew up with the men in my life and the men, my grandfather, my uncles, you wouldn't catch them crying. You wouldn't catch them talking about their feelings.

Speaker 8 You don't catch them, you know.

Speaker 11 It's just not healthy, though. though.

Speaker 8 It's not, but we know that now. Yeah.
But for generations and things before me, it's like that was not something.

Speaker 8 That's why, I mean, being gay and being part of the queer community was not talked about. It was like, don't ask, don't tell.
You don't talk about it.

Speaker 8 You just, if you know, you know, and you might want to stay away from them because it might be contagious.

Speaker 8 Where like today is like, we're having bigger conversations and raising more awareness around it just being normalized. Yeah.

Speaker 9 So I know this episode was planned out for a while and you had had a lot of conversations with mom mom and things like that.

Speaker 9 And then, unfortunately, your plans were disrupted by somebody publicly posting some photos that were shared on a private Facebook page from prom.

Speaker 9 Do you want to talk about that? How it made you feel, the impact that took on people around you, and

Speaker 9 just take us through what that was like.

Speaker 8 You went to prom, you were asked to prom by a junior, yeah, a male,

Speaker 8 and

Speaker 8 those pictures and videos were leaked.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 8 And then I got home crying.

Speaker 2 Ugly crying.

Speaker 8 How were you feeling when you saw that everything was leaked?

Speaker 11 I was devastated. I

Speaker 11 also ugly cried before you got home.

Speaker 11 It's just, it was very disappointing because, I mean, nobody knew that we were playing this episode, but it's just disappointing going back to things being on my terms it's like

Speaker 11 even if you thought you knew i was gay already like it's disappointing that i couldn't share your own experience share it on my terms agreed and

Speaker 11 the way it happened was just not okay

Speaker 11 it was very

Speaker 11 i don't want to say negative but it was very like

Speaker 8 you know at the point that you did not post it yourself or i did not have permission to post it, it wasn't necessary.

Speaker 8 Was

Speaker 8 just a violation. It was no, it wasn't even about respect.
It was about the fact that you're a minor and it was a huge violation of just your privacy in general. Yeah.

Speaker 8 And I think that that was really, really heartbreaking. Yeah.

Speaker 11 And honestly, it's not even about just me anymore. It's about the people who are in those pictures.
It's about the people.

Speaker 11 Their safety. Yeah, their safety.

Speaker 8 And maybe they weren't out yet. Exactly.
Maybe he wasn't out. Maybe his family didn't know.
Maybe his friends didn't know.

Speaker 8 And now you've put them in a dangerous position, both my son and, you know, his date. You put them in a very dangerous position.

Speaker 8 And I think just to have your post go viral or your post get likes or for your post, like for that instant gratification of yourself, you leaked pictures of minors

Speaker 8 to be able to say that you heard it first or that you have the information first or you knew it. You called it.
For money.

Speaker 8 Not even money. Because I don't even think anyone got paid.
I mean, I think the TikToks, maybe, but reposting pictures

Speaker 10 for what?

Speaker 11 And that's the problem. It, people don't understand that

Speaker 11 if I don't share it, it shouldn't be out there.

Speaker 8 You know, if you did not share it yourself on your public platform, and that's the catch-22 that we were talking about is like your private internet stuff is not actually private.

Speaker 8 It's private, but it's not private. People will, people in their circle.

Speaker 8 And I've learned that the hard way. And I've learned it so many times.
And I still haven't really learned it. Is like, I want to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Speaker 8 And I want to trust the people around me. And I think, oh, I can just post this on my, on my personal Facebook.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 But there are people in your real life circle, unfortunately, that will want to, they will prey on your downfall and they will post it and they will take it. And you'll never know.

Speaker 8 You'll know when you'll find out when it's entirely too late.

Speaker 9 You guys were planning the episode before that happened. Yes.

Speaker 9 And that was on your terms.

Speaker 9 That was having conversations like what we're having now, which I'm very glad that you still wanted to, you know, share it this way and have everything out in your own words.

Speaker 9 I know you had told me that you went to mom about wanting to post something immediately.

Speaker 8 Originally, before this episode that we're recording today came out, he came to me and said that he was ready to come out publicly

Speaker 8 and he wanted to do it on Instagram.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I didn't really know how to approach approach it.

Speaker 8 It made me nervous for you to post something on Instagram and then other people to screen record, make videos and make money off of you coming out. It's exploitative and it's not fair.

Speaker 8 And so if you're going to share your story, then you should be able to tell your story in your own words. I'm not making a dime of profit off of this.
This is going to you.

Speaker 8 So you have the right to tell your story, but you should be the one benefiting from your story. And that was what was important to me for you as your mom.

Speaker 8 Part of the reason why I was just saying, like, for people to repost and to reshare, to be able to have the final

Speaker 8 word, final word on who you are and what you're posting and who you love is like, to me, it's just disgusting for everyone out there that thinks that this was done for money. It's not.

Speaker 8 It's just, you know, Elliot felt like it was time to share his story. And in my opinion, he should be the one that collects any money that comes from it.

Speaker 8 It's his story, his words, his terms, everything.

Speaker 11 For me, though, the main concern was not about money. It was about

Speaker 11 me sharing my story on my terms

Speaker 11 because it's important to me and it's also important for me to

Speaker 11 hopefully inspire other people and like help other people who are in the same situation or similar situation work through it the best that they can and

Speaker 11 I also can make rather it be one minute video. It can be an hour maybe longer you know so

Speaker 9 that's also important to me i think that to have my moment it's better if it's longer and more in depth yes in depth so after the incident with your information and your private pictures being leaked online you had shared with me that you went back to mom and you wanted to immediately post something Yeah.

Speaker 9 Mom shared with me that she,

Speaker 9 it was a very interesting position.

Speaker 9 I would love for you to speak on that, Kale, because you've had a lot of us tell you, sleep on it, don't do that now, you're going to regret it, and you hate every bit of it every time.

Speaker 9 So, what was that? What was that like for you, for you to be in that position when you have already had the feelings and the experiences of us telling you no?

Speaker 8 I'm while you were saying that, I pulled up the conversation between Elliot and myself. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Once all these pictures and things leaked on social media, they just kept coming.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 8 You texted me and you said, I'm not letting this slide, by the way. I won't wait till Pride weekend.

Speaker 8 And I will be posting a video about this because my boundaries are crossed and I won't let it go on anymore. We have made it very clear to them and they continue to disrespect me.

Speaker 8 It was a full circle moment for me because I have been in that place so many times.

Speaker 8 And Kristen, Alessandra, other people have said, Kale, just wait, just wait, just wait, just wait.

Speaker 8 And I would be so angry and so upset and so heartbroken about whatever it was that I just wanted to speak on it right now.

Speaker 8 And that this is where that cliche saying comes in, like, what's done in the dark will come to light. But I literally texted Elliot back and I said, don't do that.
You're going to regret it.

Speaker 8 I promise you.

Speaker 8 And any time that I have immediately responded out of, you know, being emotionally charged, anger, hurt, whatever, because I wanted to explain myself and get the last word and for people to see me

Speaker 8 for who I am.

Speaker 8 Everyone it always backfired and it always made things worse. And you said, in what way will I regret this?

Speaker 8 And I said, they will not listen to you either way, no matter what you do or say, you're letting them win if you do that. And I don't agree or support you posting the video.

Speaker 8 You said, I'm a human being. And if I speak up, they'll shut up.
And I said, you're allowing them to rip this from you. They don't give a fuck.
And no, they won't shut up. They literally won't.

Speaker 8 They'll spin whatever you say and it'll get worse. You'll give them everything they want.
They'll say, oh, confirmed. Yep, he said it.
I knew it. And then what?

Speaker 8 You said, but they're going to rip it from me anyway. So I might as well speak up.
And I said, might as well not. You're acting on emotion and impulse right now.

Speaker 11 And that's exactly true.

Speaker 8 And you said, but I can't wait any longer. I said, you're not going to solve anything.
I understand the frustrations because I've been there. You can absolutely wait.
You're going to make it worse.

Speaker 8 I have not seared you wrong yet. And it's not worth it, Elliot.
I promise you. And you said, I just don't understand people.

Speaker 8 I responded and said, you will drive yourself crazy trying to. You cannot control what they do.
You need to take time. Use this as fuel to make sure you say everything you want to say.

Speaker 8 Write it in a note on your phone, but you cannot let them win this. And he said, okay, I love you.
You're right. I am acting on impulse.

Speaker 8 It's just not fair that they can get to me like this and I don't even know them. And I just said, it's okay to be mad, but write it all out on your phone so you start to feel better.
It's not fair.

Speaker 8 It's actually heartbreaking. And I, I fully agree.

Speaker 8 Like, this is something that you should be able to speak out on your own terms and you shouldn't be responding simply because people are instigating and making you feel like shit about it.

Speaker 8 It's like, this should be a proud moment. It should be a happy moment.
It should be everything that you want it to be to inspire other people.

Speaker 8 And I don't want you to speak out because you're angry or you're hurt.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it definitely was out of impulse after that that I wanted to speak up sooner.

Speaker 14 But

Speaker 11 I, like she said, or like she always tells me, sleep on it. And I did, and I felt better.

Speaker 11 And I knew it was better to wait because

Speaker 11 I can

Speaker 11 have my moment and share, say everything that I want rather than out of anger, talk about it in a one-minute video.

Speaker 8 I think I've said enough things out of anger and you've seen that and felt it that it never really turned out well for me. Yeah.

Speaker 9 What was that like having to tell him, like give him the advice that you've been given and hated? What was that like?

Speaker 8 I felt it from both sides. Like I felt like I understood both sides of it for the first time.

Speaker 8 I understood your perspective, or Alessandra's perspective, or anyone in my corner's perspective for the first time on the other side of it. And like, in the moment, you don't want to hear it.

Speaker 8 You're like, but I want to do this. I want to say this.
I want to get this off my chest. But, like, truly, there is no, they're going to feel how they're going to feel regardless.

Speaker 8 So, let them hear this entire episode. Let them hear it from your own mouth.
Let them, let you not be emotionally charged. And it'll be perceived.

Speaker 8 They're going to end up having their own feelings regardless, but it might be perceived differently when you're speaking from a place of love and compassion and inspiration and aspiration and all of those things versus emotionally charged anger.

Speaker 8 Because I mean, look at my entire life on Team Up.

Speaker 8 Everything came from an emotionally charged place. Everything came from an angry place.
And a lot of people did not.

Speaker 8 I mean, I'm getting messages now that are hearing me from the podcast saying, oh, I have a completely different perspective because you said it differently. Yeah.

Speaker 8 You have a different tone on your podcast versus on the TV. That would have been you.

Speaker 8 Elliot is speaking from a place of anger, of hurt, of heartbreak, of, you know, all of these things versus you coming on here now and having an actual conversation and a dialogue versus talking at people.

Speaker 11 It sucks that the world works the way it works, but

Speaker 11 understanding that is

Speaker 8 half the battle.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 9 If you take anything from this experience, looking at someone who's been on the emotional side with your mom for a very long time and also seeing how public reacts, you're never going to be able to, people are going to perceive things however they choose to, whether they come in with their own narrative or their own issues and they're triggered and whatever, but

Speaker 9 you're going to walk away from this proud of your own delivery and how you said it and it's for you. Right.
So like, that's my hope.

Speaker 8 1000% for this. 1,000%.
Couldn't have said it better. Thank you all so much for tuning in to part one.
I hope you guys will spread love and positivity surrounding this.

Speaker 8 I hope that you guys will show Elliot support and give him grace through all of this. This is a very brave thing for him to do.
And I hope that you guys tune in for part two.

Speaker 21 I'm Justin Sylvester and I'm Blakely Thornton. Join us for Yestergaze, the podcast where we break down the most pivotal pop culture moments in history and give them the queer love that they deserve.

Speaker 16 The things that got us riled up during dial-up, those makeouts that should have been breakouts, and the drops that were cemented in pop. I'm talking Bennifer, Tyra vs.

Speaker 16 Naomi, Tom Cruise jumping on that couch, and so much more. So please rate us, subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get audio-related content.
We also take memo and cash app

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Speaker 3 We're gay today.