Surviving Control with Gypsy Rose Blanchard

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Welcome to the shit show.

Things are going to get weird.

It's your fave villain, Kale Lowry.

And you're listening to Barely Famous. All right, Gypsy, thank you for coming on the Barely Famous podcast.
Thank you for having me. Of course.
So I read your book cover to cover in a couple hours. Yeah.
And I'm really excited to talk about it. I run an online book club.
So this was right up my alley. Oh, perfect.
You have been in the headlines for probably 10 years now. Does that sound about right?

About right, yeah.

Why now? Why are we writing a book now? Is there a reason?

Well, it's not exactly right now. I've been working on it for about three years.

Okay.

The portion that was the final pieces was editing, and that came after I got released. Okay.
So it's been a work in progress for a long time. It has.
And there was some things in the book that I was surprised to read because, you know, we hear all kinds of things in the media and people come up with their own theories. But was writing this and sort of going through this entire process for you cathartic and sort of like therapy for you? It was, um, it was challenging at times because I had to kind of ask for information from family members because like, I know, I know my side of things, but I don't know the full picture.
So I had to talk to family and to talk to, you know, friends, um, to get a lot of information that I didn't know about. Right.
So do you ever talk about your relationship and where they stand today with

Claude or Laura? Do you talk about that at all?

Um, Laura has passed away. She passed away a few years ago.
Um, I don't speak with Claude.

Um, we live like literally one town apart. Um, but I haven't run into him since,

since I was actually little. So do you know how he feels about the book? I honestly don't know how he feels about the book.
He's in his 80s, so I'm not really even sure if he even knows about the book. Okay.
I mean, he doesn't really need to know. Your truth is your truth.
And I feel like at the end of the day, he can't dispute what your perception of any of this was, right? Correct. I mean, I get that.
So the people that you developed relationships with while you were in prison, do you talk to them still? Fortunately, I can't. While I'm on parole, I can't have communication with them.
But after I'm off parole, I can't. And how long are you on parole for? For about another seven months.
Oh, I thought you were going to say seven years. No, about seven months to go.
So what does that mean? So when you get released from prison, you go on parole for what was the time frame? For me, I spent eight and a half years locked up total. Okay.
And then the remainder of the year and a half on parole. Okay.
And then once you're released from parole, you're done. Do you go on probation or anything like that? I'm done.
Like the sentence is complete. And then could you move out of state if you wanted to? I could.
Yeah. Do you have any plans to move out of Louisiana? I don't know.
We've been talking about it. Yeah.
Cause where is Ken from? Um, he's originally from Georgia, but he's moved around a lot. So he's lived in Dallas.
He's lived in Seattle. Right.
So he's moved around a lot. Yeah.
And all of those are kind of like, I guess the South, right? They're just a lot different. This is my first time in Louisiana.
So, and not what the weather is like usually. Okay.
Well, I brought a winter coat because I was like, I didn't know what to expect and it's 30 degrees back home home. So I was like, what is going on? So in the book, you talk about trying foods for the first time and having your salivary glands taken out.
What does that even mean? And when you say that you were trying foods for the first time, what were some of the things that you experienced with eating certain foods for the first time? So when I say, you know, eating certain foods for the first time, it means that I've never tried it before. Okay.
Um, so certain foods, my, my mother never let me eat or, um, the majority of my nutrition came from, uh, my feeding tube and formula based nutrition all the way up until you were how old?

24. I was about, you know, up until the prime itself.
I did not realize that. So when you don't have those glands anymore, what does that do for eating food? So the salivary glands isn't exactly part of why I had the feeding tube.
Okay.

So the salivary glands was taken out after

the feeding tube was already placed in. But what your salivary glands do is produce saliva.

So if often you'll see me drink, lick my lips, that is often a sign that my mouth is really dry

because without the two salivary glands in my neck, I produce less saliva. That's so interesting.
So when you're eating foods, you need to drink a lot. Did they tell you that was going to be a side effect or were you too young at that point to understand like what that meant to happen? I wasn't told.
So I had no idea what the side effects would have been. That's so interesting.
And there's no way to obviously replace them. No.
Once they're out, it's taking organs out of you. You can't regrow them or put them back in.
Do the foods taste the same otherwise? I wouldn't know any different, would I? Right. No, I guess not.
And so could you get regular foods like blended and put through your feeding tube or was just strictly like – I mean, that's possible, but it's not recommended. Okay.
You know, the doctor gives you a specific routine on what you can and cannot put through a feeding tube or, you know, they don't recommend putting regular food through a feeding tube because it often gets stuck in the feeding tube itself. That's so interesting.
and in the book, you talk about, you know, the correctional facility that you were at. Does the word correctional in the name of a prison mean anything? I think that it does.
I think that the word correction often means to stop or to prevent, and prison definitely does that.

So you think that it's more of like a rehabilitation effort?

I think for some.

I think it is very much based on what the inmate wants.

Okay.

So if the inmate wants to better him or herself, it will be productive.

And if not, then they're just spending wasted time.

Okay.

because I know that there's like state prisons or federal prisons, but they don't necessarily always have the word correctional in the name of the. That's interesting.
I didn't know that. I don't know that for sure, but I'm, I've noticed, or at least I think I have and Alessandra saying, yeah, so I'm going with going with yes.
I want to dive headfirst into page three of the book. Obviously, I want people to go pick up the book and read it, buy it, all of that.
But you used a metaphor where you talk about it was, you know, your throat was going to be cut. So it was more of like a life or death sort of situation.
Can you sort of describe what that meant to you in a way that, you know, people will hopefully want to go buy the book? I think that, you know, obviously we wanted, and we meaning me and my co-authors, wanted to convey a sense of urgency. Okay.
Um, because a lot of people don't, can't put themselves in the mindset of where I was at with the abuse and how desperate I felt. So having a statement like she was going to cut my throat, that statement stands out a lot.
And so it transports the readers into my mind and emotion. And so that's why it was so important to kind of say that and then go into the details of what I meant by that.
Right. It sort of paints the whole picture.
Exactly. Okay.
I understand. The book was very well written and I was really impressed with how thorough it was.
There were a couple of things and we'll get to it later on about, um, you know, about Nick and some of the things that I didn't really know. I don't know if I just didn't follow his story as much, but, um, in the book you said that you were in a silent standoff, right? So you were, your mom was desperate to sort of keep control over you.
Looking back, do you still feel the same way?

I do.

Yeah.

I just feel a little bit more humanity towards her now because after going through all the research with family members, I started to learn that she seemed very self-isolated.

She was just not someone that had a social life herself. You know, it was very much keep us in a tiny bubble.
Do you think that that was intentional and she was aware of it? Or do you think it was more like she didn't really know that she was doing these things? I think maybe both. Okay.
I have feelings about both. So, I mean, I think that it was intentional to not correspond with our family, not correspond with my father.
And so I think that that part was intentional, but I don't think that maybe she was aware how that affected me in a negative way. Okay.
So maybe some of the other things that were happening were in relation to, you know, self-isolating, but she didn't, she wasn't really aware of what she was like, how deep this was going, how, how much it hurts. Okay.
That's interesting too. I actually only ever heard of Munchausen by proxy because of Eminem, right? Like the, the rapper still learning about this.
I have been like, someone else brought that up too. And I'm like, you know, I need to dive more into that.
That's the, that was my sort of first lesson of what, what the illness I guess is or was. And that was the only time I had ever, ever heard of it until your story.
And so I think that your story has definitely brought more awareness to it for sure. If you had to guess, how many times do you think that you've been

under anesthesia? Probably over a hundred, probably. And do you know what the side effects

of that are? Like, do you have, I think I've read something about like short-term memory or long-term memory. Do you feel like you feel any side effects, long-term effects from it? I haven't noticed any so far, which I feel like I'm blessed for that.
Yeah, for sure. You know, going under anesthesia, I, when I was a kid, I was a kid, I didn't ask questions.
Right. So it's like all the side effects and everything, all the dangers, um, was told to my mom, not to me.
Right. Right.
Cause you were a minor. So that makes sense.
Um, in the book too, you talked about your, um, I don't want to call it an addiction cause I don't necessarily think that you called it an addition, an addiction. Do you think that you had an addiction? Um, I absolutely do think that it was an it was an addiction to painkillers.
Yeah. Yes.
So by accident or did you like, were you already taking them and you felt the effects? And so you eventually, you know, got to a point where you were abusing them or do you think that it was more by accident? It was originally my first exposure was from pain medication from after having surgery. Right.

And so that was accidental. So it started off with, okay, they prescribed me this pain medicine.
Oh, it makes me feel different. It makes me feel kind of numb.
And so after that point, that's when I slowly started to take more and more and more and slowly abused it. Okay.
And your mom was aware of it, but didn't say anything. Correct.
Because I think that's what I read in the book and I was shocked by that. Correct.
But that sort of fell into subconscious or conscious plan of, you know, her kind of keeping you close. It sort of helped keep you there, right? Right.
That's so interesting. I always wonder with addiction, my mom's an addict and an alcoholic.
And so I always wonder how sort of that can happen. It's hard whenever you have someone, you know, there's nobody there to tell you to stop or to pull you away from the edge, but instead encourage.
So my mom was on a pain medication herself as well as Xanax. And so she would give me what is called what we call a cocktail.
And so that would be a mixture of oxycodone and Xanax together. And what would that do? Would it put you to sleep? Yes.
I mean, downers for sure. I've never tried uppers, but I have had downers.
And it put me in a state of numbness and I liked being there.

And so would you spend a lot of time in that state of mind, you think?

Yes.

I know at one point you talked about how you took the last of your mom's pills and then you guys had to go file a police report in order to get a refill because that was the

only way that you could get a refill on the narcotics.

Correct.

When you think about that now, how do you feel?

I mean, I definitely feel a lot of regrets because that's, you know, not behavior that I would ever condone or, or I'm proud of. Um, but it does put it in perspective as to like what mind frame I was in.
Yeah. I mean, I, I just, but as a mom, you're about to be a mom.
So it's like, could you even imagine like helping yourself and your, your daughter do something like that? No, no, I would never, like, I can't imagine. Like, I just, I would be so curious to know, you know, you know, if she was here today, like where her mind was at in that moment.
Cause did, did she need them at that point or did she, do you think she did need them? Um, we were in a car accident in 2001 and it left her with, um, an injured leg. Okay.
Um, and her leg had never healed back fully. Right.
So she still had like the pins and screws and plates and hardware to kind of keep her leg, um, in place. from daily pain.
I won't say that she abused them. That was my next question.
Okay. She didn't abuse them.
I think she took them as prescribed. Okay.
I think, and I don't know this for sure. I'm not an expert, but I would guess that it probably has a different effect on you as a child.
You were young and you didn't necessarily need them.

So it's going to have a different effect than someone who's actually using them as needed.

Correct.

And dosage makes a big difference. I was around 95, 90 pounds.

Oh, wow.

And so she was probably double your height and weight or, you know, whatever.

So dosage does make a difference in the book i was shocked to find out that christy and didi knew each other yes before your dad and christy were Yes. Laura, Christy, and my mom all knew each other.
That is so interesting. So was that a point of contention? I believe I read in the book that it was a point of contention.
Didi felt like Christy sort of took her place and was with your dad. Is that right? Correct.
I am just – so your dad and Christy actually grew up together. Yeah.
I mean, they met in high school. Okay.
Okay. So I mean it was a small town.
Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of like everybody knows everybody.
So yeah, they kind of grew up together and went to school together and stuff like this. So they were always friends.
And when my dad started dating my mom, Christy was still just a friend. But my mom always felt like there was maybe something more.
And that jealousy kind of grew from there. And there was always contention between the two.
Did you know that before writing the book? Or did you? I knew that from you did. I did know that because often my mom would say really mean things about christy um me growing up.
So, yeah, I knew that they did not. Or at least I knew that my mom didn't like Christy.
Has Christy ever, like, expressed that she didn't like your mom? No, no. Like, she was very civil.
She's like, I thought that your mom was a nice woman. it wasn't until after I started dating your dad that there was this back and forth tension.
Yeah. That is so interesting.
Did you have your feelings changed at all? Like, did you not like Christy growing up because of what your mom said? Exactly. So, I mean, growing up, my mom always used to tell me that Christy was like the homewrecker.
She's the other woman. Like she was always branded the other woman.
Right. So she didn't have her own identity.
So you sort of took on what your mom felt, which I mean, when you're young and you only have the one parent in your life, what are you supposed to know? You're just going by what you're taught. Yeah.
In the book, you talk about a half sister, but it wasn't clear if that was Mia or if there's another half sister. I have two half sisters.
So you have Mia that is Christie and rods. And then you have another half sister.
Yes. And do you have a relationship with her? We are friends on Facebook.
Okay. So we communicate through Facebook.
We have met once earlier in the year. Okay.
Um, we all got together and you know, it was great to have like my dad had been wanting a relationship with all three of his daughters. Okay.
And so one day when I was in town, um, my sister Facebooked me and she's like, I'd like to meet you. And so it was great.
Cause I had me Mia, and her there. Right.
It was great. And so has your dad maintained a relationship with her or she's kind of been separate from everybody? I would say she keeps her distance in a way that she has a family.
She has a son. So I think all of the media stuff really just kind of puts her in a protective mode, which is understandable.
For sure. And so your dad was sort of like, I mean, your dad's, he's pretty good looking.
He's pretty good looking. Everybody says that.
So I can see why. I understand how all of this has transpired.
But so do you think that they'll have a closer relationship moving forward? Do you think? They're trying. Yeah.
They're in the works of having it. No, it's tough because I think once you grow up a certain way and you live, you know, a certain lifestyle or you live in a, maybe you got, is she in Louisiana as well? She is, yeah.
So even if you're in a different area, I think it's really hard. I met my sister as an adult as well.
And I feel like I love her, right? Like that's my sister. But I think sometimes once you're an adult, it is so hard to sort of create those relationships and, you know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
But, um, I hope that you guys are able to, to have like a further relationship. Yeah.
Um, have you ever talked to your dad about why he was willing to marry your mom because it was the right thing to do? Um, but I, I don't think in the book you mentioned him, you know, maybe putting the same efforts into that sister. Like, did he just never really have a relationship with her mom? Um, well it was, um, we're actually very close in age.
Oh, okay. So like really close by a couple of months.
Okay. So he had to sort of choose between the two.
Okay. He's a player.
I get it. I get it.
I mean, I have four baby dads, so it's fine. So, I mean, it was, I mean, he was 17 years old when my mom got pregnant.
Okay. So he would have been, you know, roughly around the same 17 or 18 when, um, my other sister's mom got pregnant as well okay so it was one of those things that he's so he was so young he's trying to do the right thing right um he's paying child support on one kid right now has to pay child support on another kid um so i mean i just chalk it up to like he wasn't ready to be a dad.
And yeah, we had those conversations since I've been released. Yeah.
And he's been very open and honest with me. And he's like, to be honest, I was just trying to do the best thing for y'all at the time.
And he's like, I was not mature enough to be a father yet. Yeah.
I mean, 17, what 17-old is? I mean, I know people in their 20s that are

not – I wasn't ready. And I had three kids before I was 25.
So I completely understand that.

You talk about how close you and your mom were. You were talking about the nicknames that you

guys went by, baby and honey, right? And talking about bathing and sleeping together. Did you ever

feel like the relationship was an enmeshment? It was. I really felt that way.
I also like

Thank you. and sleeping together.
Did you ever feel like the relationship was an enmeshment? It was. I really felt that way.
I also like when I was little, my mom was like my best friend. And that's what I chalked it up to.
I didn't go to school. So growing up around other kids was very rare.
There may have been the neighborhood kids, my cousins, but few and far between interaction with kids my age. And so when I was little, my stuffed animals, my Barbie dolls, my mom was my social life.
So that's what I grew up knowing. And then as I got older, I felt it was almost like being sheltered, but also taking the part of a partner or spouse in a marriage.
So all of her stress would be shared to me. And I was kind of expected to carry all of this and be that person that she needed me to be.
Right. So you were the daughter, the friend, the partner.
Everything. All of the things.
Yeah. From a really, really young age.
Yeah. It's like having a bad marriage without the sexual part of it.
And how do you feel about that now? Do you feel like you'll know sort of where the boundaries are for your daughter when she's born? Absolutely. Like I feel like I don't think there's anything wrong with a close relationship with your parent or your daughter.
Right. But there's a line.
Yeah. Between normal and weird.
Yeah, yeah. I always, I have a hard time.
I have a 15 year old and then I have, I have seven kids all the way down to the age of one. And so I have a really hard time with the parents that call their children, their best friends, because I feel like you have to be their parent first.
And I think sometimes parents, and I've done it at times too. And that's why I speak from experience is like is blurring that line and then having to take a step back and be like, okay, wait, I'm your parent first.
It can be difficult. You could be that person that they come to.
For sure. And be that person to lean on.
Absolutely. But to say best friend, like, no, you go to school, you make your own friends.
Right. But I'm here if you need me yeah yeah exactly there's definitely definitely clear lines that we have to we have to set but um in the book you talk about your baby bottles and i don't think that i ever heard that in like the headlines or the shows or the documentaries is that something that is exclusive to this book it is it's not something that i really tell everybody about because, I mean, it's pretty embarrassing.
Are you comfortable talking about it now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's in the books.
Okay. Definitely go get a copy of this book, My Time to Stand.
And so in the book, you talk about having a baby bottle. And up until the night of the crime, you were packing a baby bottle in your bag.
What was that about? Can you talk about it? Well, my mom never weaned me off the baby bottle. Like we're talking a bottle with nipples.
Yes. You talk about bringing change.
Yes. So I, you know, I was given formula through the feeding tube, but also my, my comfort, I never like took to a stuffed animal or a blankie or anything, but I loved the bottle.
Okay. And so like strawberry PediaSure was my favorite.
And my mom never said, oh, you're too old for that. Okay.
She just let me continue on the bottle. Sure.
To the point where I think that that's why my teeth were buck teeth. My original teeth were bucked and just out of alignment.
Sure. But even up until the night before the crime, I was still very much like that was my source of comfort, you know? So it's like I'm taking, I'm addicted to narcotics and I'm also sucking on a baby bottle to give me comfort.
That is so hard for me to wrap my head around. How do you feel about that when you think about it? It's very bizarre.
It's very bizarre now looking back on it. But that was my normal.
Right. So during that time, you didn't know any different.
No. Like that was my normal.
What is people's where it's just like, you're, you truly are addicted to narcotics and drinking out of baby. Yeah.
Yeah. It's, it's two ends of a spectrum and somehow I landed right between them.
And then the night of the crime happens and then you are, you couldn't take the baby bottle to prison. Right.
So what was that like? Was it sort of like a cold turkey cut off the bottle sort of deal?

Yeah.

It's like I had taken the narcotics.

I didn't pack a baby bottle.

I just kind of left my old life behind entirely.

So in some ways that had to be liberating.

It was.

It was liberating but also scary.

It was new territory.

Like for me,

when I'm trying something new or I'm entering into a zone that I've never experienced before,

I get a lot of anxiety about it. Yeah.
I mean, rightfully so. I feel like your entire life had to be built off of anxiety.
I cannot imagine. So CPS comes

just one time in your entire life. Entire life.
I don't even have words because I've seen CPS get involved in situations for much, much less and either do something or don't. And so when you look back, I mean, at the time, did it even cross your mind to tell CPS what was going on?

I didn't even know who they were. So I want to make it clear that when I grew up, like, okay, so most parents, um, to kind of discipline their children, you know, they're like, oh, the boogeyman's going to get you.
Right. Okay.
So my mom never said the boogeyman. My mom said the state.
So I grew up being afraid of people that I thought were bad people.

Right.

That were going to take me away from her.

And they were called the state.

And so what I didn't know back then was she was telling me to be afraid of CPS.

And I didn't know that then. It wasn't until after I got out of prison that I kind of figured it all out.
Right, right. And so when they came, I didn't know who they were.
I'm like, do they work with the police? And they're asking me questions like, do I have bruises on my arms and legs? Right. And did you? I didn't.
I didn't at that point in time. I didn't.
However, they weren't asking me the right questions. Right.
And that is kind of like where I fell through. That's kind of like where I put a lot of like guilt on me is because I'm like, why didn't I just tell them this? Well, you were a kid.
You didn't know any different. And you were also told to be basically taught to be afraid of them.
Exactly. So I'm like, you know, even though at this point, I would have been a teenager.
Right. But having the mindset of someone much younger because I was sheltered to be that way.
And also believed to be that way. Yes.
I think it was what, four years? Yeah. How old are you today? I am 33.
33. And you would have thought that you were what? I guess 29, right? Like if this was, if this still continues.
It was always like every year of advancement was like two years knocked back down. Okay.
So it was progressive. Right.
It wasn't, you know, when I was 10, she would say I was nine. So it started with one year and then two year and then it just progressed to more years.
Okay. As I got older.
Because it's easier to kind of hide the years as you get older, right? Like you could pass for 29, you know, sitting in front of me today. And so that makes sense.
I just, I can't understand how, when you were talking about in the book, you were talking about the, the medical records and, you know, the name spellings were off and then the dates of birth were changed and those all sort of slipped through the cracks too. And it's really shocking to me because even in certain medical records, there is descriptions of certain illnesses.
So my mother described me as paralyzed from the waist down, but in certain transcripts, there is quadriplegic, paraplegic. So it is, I'm like, there's a difference in the two.
So if you're a doctor, my eyes would be looking at that and automatically want to correct what's wrong. So it's like the medical records are basically scattered to the wind in inaccuracy.
And it's so hard to piece together any sort of sense. Well, she's going doctor to doctor.
Doctor to doctor. Maybe some of the files are not going with her, right? Correct.
She did not transfer them to one hospital to another. So when the doctor, the new doctor would ask for old records, she would claim that they were all, you know, washed away in Hurricane Katrina because back in 2005, you know, there was still that transfer from hard copy records to computer.
Even now, I think that they still struggle with that, right? Like I moved from Pennsylvania to Delaware and, you know, my doctors were asking for records and I was like, I don't have those. You know what I mean? So it's sort of easy to lose the paper trail.
So your mom would drug herself to sleep sometimes. Right, right, right.
So not abusing it necessarily. Not abusing it.
When she would go to sleep, I know that in parts of the book you talked about still being in your wheelchair, but were there ever times that you did get out of your wheelchair and walk while she was asleep? There would be times. So like if she had to go run an errand, there was times as I got older that I did want to stretch my legs and get out of the wheelchair.
And so, you know, some of the most freeing times that I had was I would play CDs on the boom box and just dance.

Yeah.

That was my freedom.

Did she know that you were doing that?

She didn't.

She did not because I would be in trouble for walking even inside the house.

Oh, wow. oh wow so then did you lose muscle mass in your legs because you were in the wheelchair so much or no i didn't lose muscle mass no no because i still like every once in a while i would move my legs here and there.
Not meaning to, but, you know, she would have to correct me and be like, stop moving your legs. At what point did you realize that you were not actually needing the wheelchair? Like, how old do you think you were? I mean, I always knew that I could walk and I've always been honest about that.
But it was, and I, and this goes right into the title. Um, this is why I wanted to have the word stand in the title is because yes, I knew that I could walk.
However, my mom didn't let me get out of the chair. Um, so it was like, I was forced to be in the chair.
That is so wild. I can't imagine.
And it has to be, obviously I don't want to speak ill of the dead, right? But like that has to be mental illness. As a mom, I can't imagine, you know, doing these things to my own child, let alone any child.
But there has to be something deeper there. And I wish that we had more answers as far as that goes.
Absolutely. That's where I feel like, you know, maybe in a sense, the system failed her.
Yeah. And the way we grew up in southern Louisiana, particularly in my family, we don't talk about mental health.
Right. Growing up in the 90s, it wasn't really talked about.
Right. You're either labeled weird or just different.
Crazy. Crazy.
Like, those are the terms that you grew up with in the 90s. Right.
And sadly, you know, she would have needed therapy. She would have needed medication.
But she didn't get those things. Right.
Right. she couldn't have because nobody was willing to, it's always your, you know, she would have needed therapy.
She would have needed medication. Um, but she didn't get those things.
Right. Right.
She couldn't have because nobody was willing to, it's always your crazy. And I think that raising awareness about it now is also, I mean, we talk about mental health all the time, right? Like in where we are today in life, I feel like we talk about it all the time.
And if they had that, it might be different, but you know, who's to say, uh,? So you meet Dan and you still drink from a bottle at this time and you pack the bottle to go to Dan's house.

Did he already know this?

He didn't know.

I didn't tell him a lot.

I didn't tell him I had a feeding tube.

I didn't tell him about necessarily how weird my life was and how different it was.

There was certain things that came up in conversations.

Like I could walk.

And obviously because I ran away.

Yeah.

But he was oblivious to a lot of what was going on.

And Dan was an adult that you met at a convention.

Correct.

And you guys had a romantic interest in each other.

I mean it was. I had a crush on him.
Right. And I think he thought that I was cute, but it wasn't to the point where it was a relationship.
Okay. But you guys maybe had a little bit of an interest, a fling.
I was like, he's cute. How old is he? How old was he? He was 36.
And he thought you were how old? 15 at the time. So that would be a pedophile, right? I don't like saying that word.
I don't like labeling someone anything. I don't like labels put on me.
So this way I don't put labels on other people. Okay.
Fair. Okay.
But it's questionable. It's definitely questionable behavior.
So your mom threatened to, or she did actually like out him as you know someone who liked

correct correct so um once my mom brought me back home after running away and catching me with dan

um that's whenever she started to like call the people that like knew about it in a very vague

way okay and so she claimed that dan kidnapped me that he took me to somewhere and that like i was

Thank you. it in a very vague way.
Okay. And so she claimed that Dan kidnapped me, that he took me to somewhere and that like, I was safe.
I was found. Um, all the while I was chained to a bed at this time.
So she is because you ran to dance. Cause I ran to dance.
And have you had communications with Dan since? No, never. He's never reached out to make sure you were good and okay.

No.

We had a text exchange like the day that I got arrested.

And he had texted me and he's like, everybody says you're missing.

Are you okay?

That was the text.

That was the text.

And I never had any communication since.

Wow.

Because he was scared. He was on parole, right? You found out that – or house arrest? It wasn't a house arrest.
I think I found out that it was like probation parole. Probation parole.
He would have gotten in trouble probably for talking to you at that point. Probably.
Okay. Makes sense.
Was this to Dan's where you ask the neighbor or is this the second time that you run away that you get to the neighborhood and you knock on somebody random's door? That was the first time. So that was with Dan.
Yeah. Okay.
So he's in the hospital. Okay.
So you just knock on some random person's door? I did. So it was the community, the housing community that was right on the side of the Habitat for Humanity community.
Okay. So it was literally up the street.
Okay. And I knock on the first person's door that I see.
And you're like my – I'm like my – I called him my boyfriend. Yeah, yeah.
And I was like my boyfriend is in the hospital. Can I get a ride? They didn't know who you were? They didn't know who I was.
But I was – I wore a long blonde wig. I had – I still remember what I was wearing.
I had a long blonde wig. I had a too big of a red bra.

It was like two sizes too big.

A black tank top, jeans that were too big, and a Harry Potter hoodie.

Did they think you were on drugs?

I probably looked like I was.

What did they say to you?

They're like, okay.

I mean, it was a nice man. It was probably like 2 o'clock in the morning and, and he gave me the ride.
He took you? Yes. And then you get to the hospital and you're like, Hey Dan, what's up? Yeah.
And y'all just hung out in the hospital. Yeah.
Well, he was released within 20 minutes. Okay.
And so his cousin was there with him. And so his cousin had drove us back to the friend's house that he was staying at.
Okay. And they also didn't know who you were, like what your story was.
They were asleep when we got there. It wasn't until the morning where the man, the husband, comes in the room and asks me my name.
And stupid as all I can be. I'm like, Gypsy, I'm Dan's girlfriend.

I'm so stupid.

And then he's like, your mom's here.

Yeah, an hour later, your mom's here.

And you were convinced that she was going to let you continue to have a friendship with Dan.

She did.

She did.

And she's like, if you come back with me, I'll let you have a friendship with him. I'll let you see him.
I'll let you talk to him. Just come back with me.
And I believed her and I came, I went back with her. And then at that point, that's before the shed incident? Correct.
Okay. So the second attempt to escape was in 2012.
And what was the mindset at this time? You were like, I already had a failed escape. You go back home with your mom.
She tells you you can have Dan as a friend. But you were like, no, I need to escape still.
Because she changed you to the bed between incidents? Yes. So, I mean, that was definitely like a cracking point is that I never submitted, I guess you can say fully, to the idea that this was going to be my life.
So did that sort of, that first attempt give you almost like a hope that you're like, okay, I didn't do this right the first time. I could do it the second time.
Exactly. I'm like, okay, well maybe if I make certain differences.
So, you know know i pack a bag in the middle of the night i'm going to attempt to leave to just go anywhere because at that point i hadn't texted with dan so i had no idea where he was okay um but i was just gonna i was just gonna run and just see where and see where i was gonna be homeless i didn't care what i had to do i was was just going to go. But that one failed as well.
It failed as well. She found my backpack.
And that's whenever there was a standoff. And that's whenever I shot her with the BB gun.
Okay. So that is actually the next question I have is, why did your mom have the BB gun to begin with? Why did she buy that from Walmart? So she had bought that because she had told me it was to keep Dan away.
Did you think it was a real gun? No. You knew it was a BB gun? I knew it was a BB gun.
Okay. Which, you know, in certain documentaries and transcripts and stuff like that, some people are like, oh, well, she didn't know it was a BB gun.
No, I knew it was a BB gun. Okay.
So you didn't think it was going to kill her or anything? No, no.

Okay.

And when you shot her with it, it was to scare her or did you think it would kill her? Oh, no. It was just to scare.
Okay. Okay.
Did you get out of the wheelchair to shoot her with the BB gun? I didn't. I stayed in the wheelchair the whole time.
What is the frame of mind for that? I have no idea. When you are in a state of being so afraid, logic goes out the window.
I may have touched on this in the book where the night of the crime, I was going around the house taking pictures off the wall of me because I thought, well, maybe the police won't know I live here. Yeah.
You said that in the book. All logic just goes out the window.
So in that moment, it was complete survival mode. Nothing made sense.
So get out of the wheelchair. Yeah.
That didn't cross my mind. It's like stay in the wheelchair, stay in the wheelchair.
I'm not programmed. You know, what's interesting though, about the taking the photos off the wall wall though and removing them? That to me is a little bit more logical because you had fallen through the cracks so many times all the way up until that point.
So if you weren't in the home anywhere, I mean, maybe I wouldn't necessarily think you didn't live there, but it wouldn't have made a difference. You know what I mean? So I don't necessarily think that was like illogical.
Um, but so you meet Nick online later in 2012 after the second escape attempt, the second escape attempt. And you connected on a Christian dating site.
Yes. Where was your mom during this time? Um, so my mom was around the house.
Um, you know, we still live together. Um, she and I had a joint laptop that we would share together.
Um, and electronics was difficult for her to let me be on. Right.
Um, because of what happened in the past. Right.
So, um, electronics was just something that was definitely a hot button issue. Right.
Because of what happened in the past. Right.
So electronics was just something that was definitely a hot button issue. Right.
So, I mean, there was a little bit of manipulation on my part, and I am not, you know, too good to own up to that, where I did manipulate the situation where my mom didn't know that I was on Facebook. But how? How did you hide it? By switching tabs.
And she didn't know any different? She didn't know any different. I mean, to be fair, in a situation like that, whether you're in an abusive relationship with your parent or not, everyone was doing that, right? Like I was doing that.
If I had access to a computer, I was going to do whatever I could to get on it and go on AIM and whatever else I could do. You know what I mean? So hide the tab button or whatever.
That I think comes with some adolescence. You know what I mean? Yeah, some maturity there.
But so how did you know about like a dating site? I seen a commercial for it on TV. Yeah, yeah.
It was like Christian Mingle or something like that. that.
And I'm like, my logic was, oh, a Christian guy would be like a good guy. And little did you know you were going to get the complete opposite.
Yeah. Wow.
The things that I learned in this book about Nick was insane. What I remember from like the media, headlines, documentaries, and things like that was that, you know, you allegedly manipulated someone who possibly was, you know, disabled in some ways.
And that was not confirmed or, you know, anything in the book. But I think that was is some some of what the public thinks.
But based on what I read in this book was that he was already having all types of very, very violent fantasies prior to even meeting you. Correct.
He had those with other ex-girlfriends. Who reached out to you.
Who reached out to me to warn me that he was like that. And I'm like, oh, it's just, you know, it's a scorned ex-girlfriend.
And I just kind of like brushed it off like, oh, whatever. Like they're just talking smack.
And you just ignored it? I just ignored it. Did it ever scare you? Did you ever think he was going to do something to you? I mean, of course, later on in the relationship.
But I still was in the mindset like, well, this person loves me. This person is giving me attention.
Like this person loves me for me. You can look past the violence at that point.
I can look past it. Or change him.
Right. I mean, that's a big one.
I think up until my late twenties, I thought I could change a man. You know what I mean? Exactly.
I think I romanticized the idea of, you know, um, being, uh, my man's savior just as much as he was mine. Right.
So it was like the beauty and the beast syndrome. Did he ever know that maybe you thought that he should get help? Yeah.
I mean, I mentioned it. I mean, therapy wasn't really something I was talking about or in at that time.
Right. But I often expressed that I wish that we could have a normal relationship is what I would call it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that never happened.

No.

I just was like reading some of the things that he – and I don't want to say too much because I want people to read them in the book but some of the things that he some of the ideas that he brought to you about how to unalive your mom were twisted and all of that is factual evidence and it's in Facebook messages. There is actual proof that these things were said.
Whether or not those case files are released to the public, I'm not sure. But there is a paper trail.
So did that come up in court, like in trial? It did. It was discussed.
So people could find that if they wanted to. The prosecutor definitely did.
This was the first time I had read that. So I don't know if it just – there's a little bit of attention on it in the media.
But I was shocked. I couldn't even – Not a lot of people know about that stuff because what is in a confidential case file because he is still going through his appeals.
So there is a portion of case files that are not out to the public. So, you know, that's why I think a lot of people are just like, okay, it's one-sided.
And then in my opinion, whether it was conscious or not, I feel like maybe we manipulated each other. Absolutely.
It was mutual. Right, right.
But I definitely don't want it to go unsaid that there were definitely fantasies of these things before he even met you. Prior to meeting me, yeah.
And I think that's a misconception. Yeah.
So I just wanted to make that clear for sure. Quote, Nick told me I'd be a woman if he carved me up with a knife.
What does that mean? He often, you know, talked about fantasy violence. So I think it was more along the lines of fantasizing about what I would let him do to me.
Okay. In terms of how far would I be willing to go.
And then that would make you a woman. Right.
Wow. And then you talk about sort of the sexual side of your relationship with Nick and some of the things that you would participate in.
Where was Dee Dee during that time? So a lot of times for certain pornographic photos or videos, if my mom went to Walmart, it was done while she was out of the house or while she was asleep. So I could get out of bed for a few minutes without her noticing, depending on how much she was under influence of Ambien.
Did you have to go to bed when she went to bed?

Yeah, we typically went to bed together.

Everything we did together, shower time, bath time, sleep time, like everything was together.

Wow.

I don't think that that is known though.

Like in the book, I didn't realize that it was at the same time.

But that makes sense because she had to make sure that you're under her right routines was aligned okay wow and then Nick told you at one point that if you all ever had a daughter together he would take your daughter's virginity at 13 correct and I broke up with him after he said that um we had a huge argument after that I broke up with him. I'm like'm done I called him a bunch of names um I was like I am never gonna let you do that so you just lost me um and then he basically talked me back by saying that I would never do that that was my other personality but I would never let him do that.
So I got back together with him based on his promises. And he had an alter ego essentially, or the other personality that was Victor? He had a few.
Oh, he had a few. Okay.
So I know, was Victor the evil twin? Victor was the evil one. Okay.
So looking back, are you afraid of him? I mean, of course. Yeah.
I just – I couldn't imagine putting myself in a position to be that close to someone that has that level of instability. Yeah.
Yeah. I don't think I've ever met someone like that.
And so I think that we have to be, you know, we have to be aware and be careful. We have to very much be aware of who you're talking to because you just never know what their frame of mind is.
Right. How do you feel about online dating now? It's not for me.
I'm not going to knock it for everybody. Right.
For some people it works, but I'm not one of those people. What did Nick's – where did Nick's mom think that he was going? He knew – she knew about you, right? To some degree? To some degree, yeah.
Did she know the level of, I guess, the depth of your relationship at that time? She knew that we were in a relationship. Okay.
She didn't know the ins and outs of our conversations or, you know, our plans or whatever. Right.
Okay. And have you talked to her since the night of the crime? She has passed away.
Everyone has passed away. Yeah.
She, ironically enough, she passed away in June around the same time that the anniversary of the crime happened. And it was overdose.
Oh, wow. Do you know if Nick was allowed to – can you leave for a funeral in prison? In the state of Missouri, you cannot.
You can't? You cannot. You could watch a bereavement video that is sent to the prison, and you can watch it with a chaplain, but you can't attend a funeral.
So were you able to do any of that stuff for Didi? I was not. No.
So interesting. You have micro deletion 1Q21.1.
Correct. It's a chromosomal change in which a small piece of chromosome one is deleted in each cell.
This increases the risk of delayed development, intellectual disability, physical abnormalities, and neurological and psychiatric problems. But you sort of went unscathed.
Is that right? Correct. So I don't display the correlations.
They say my doctor said not cause, but correlation between the micro deletion and these illnesses. But it's unclear whether your mom knew that or not? Correct.
So that's the thing. So my father just got recently tested for it to see if it came from him or from her.
Okay. Like a carrier.
Exactly. Okay.
So my father came back negative. Okay.
There's no way to test my mom. Even with like remains or something? Even with that, we need her blood.
And so there's no way to know. But my doctor did tell me that it could be inherited or it could develop on its own.
So it could be possible that neither parent had it and it just developed in me. That's so interesting.
Just from speaking to other family members or anything, did your mom fall under any of the typical symptoms? No. No, she did not display any of the symptoms.
When I was pregnant, not for all the pregnancies, surprisingly,

but I was able to do genetic testing. I don't know if you did it.
It's all this genetic testing for genetic disorders. And I came back positive for something, but then it wouldn't necessarily, like one of my children wouldn't get it unless my partner also was a carrier.
Oh, okay. I see what you're saying.
Is it not, it could be like that, but also developed without?

Correct. So, um.
Oh, okay. So is it not, it could be like that, but also developed without?

Correct.

So my child, my daughter has a 50% chance of inheriting it from me. Okay.
Now that like we got, I got retested because I was tested in 2012. but because of everything that my mom said and did,

I was not going to just go on that test result from that long ago. So I got retested a few months ago.
And it still came back positive. Okay.
So I'm speaking with a geneticist now to kind of know where to go with that and also what that means for my future children. Right.
So it could be that, you know, my daughter might get it. She might not.
But if she does, then at that point, we'd have to watch her growth. Okay.
Because it's not something like Down syndrome where you know the quality of life. Right.
That is associated with this is a gamble. Right.
You don't know what you're going to get.

Right.

So she could be unscathed like you where you're carrying it, you have it, but not necessarily

affected by it.

Exactly.

Same thing for your daughter.

Correct.

Okay.

That's so interesting.

I had never heard of it until I read it in the book.

And so it was really interesting.

And I went down a rabbit hole of Google.

And I'm like, I just, I don't know because I had no idea what it was. You briefly touched on the bottle possibly having an effect on your teeth, right? But your teeth were also pulled out.
Correct. They were extracted, my front ones.
But not necessarily because of the bottle or it was because of the bottle? No, it wasn't because of the bottle. You know, what's interesting is in the medical records, there's no clear answer for why they were extracted.
I read that. Now, what we can speculate on is lack of good nutrition.
We can speculate medication. That was my question.
I had said maybe like certain medications will deteriorate your teeth or if you're taking any sort of liquid, if it sits in your mouth for a long time, like would that contribute to it? Correct. So, you know, we can only really kind of speculate why by seeing other facts.
So it's probably a strong possibility that certain medications wore the enamel down or had certain effects. I also I also grew up with acid reflux.
Okay. So, I mean, there's probably a contributing factor of things.
For sure. Going back to your, is it a genetic disorder? Yes.
Okay. Going back to that, how did you tell Ken? Well, he was there when I took the test.
Okay. So I had got a blood panel done.
The results came back. My doctor called me and she said, you are positive for the micro deletion.
That was a hard pill to swallow because I was really, really hoping that was something that my mom made up. Yeah.
Or that was just falsified. So this was the one thing that I actually do have.
And it was really heartbreaking because it's like, we're both super hopeful. But that does kind of impact how many kids will we have? Because every child that we have, that's a 50% gamble.
Maybe you've already explored this, but is there a world where if you did something like IVF that they're able to test the embryos beforehand for that? I don't know. I don't know.
I don't know if that's possible or not, but there is after she is born, then we can do genetic testing for her and then get answers from there. But it still doesn't decrease or increase.
All future children will still have a 50% chance. Yeah.
Now, Ken has been tested as well. Okay.
And his came back. He has negative for everything.
Like, good on the genetic side. Isn't that nice? Genetically blessed.
why are we the ones that have to be carriers for something?

Have you all thought about more kids in the future or? I mean, before we got this news, I mean, we were thinking two more kids. Yeah.
Yeah. But now knowing this information, we have to have a heavier talk about it.
Yeah. That we didn't expect to have.
Right. I just wonder if, you know, if you were, if she were to be positive, if it would be sort of – because you were sort of unscathed by it, if it would be the same.
But I guess it's unpredictable. It is unpredictable because I'm looking at my heritage.
So it's like I'm looking at my grandmother. She didn't display any symptoms.
My mother didn't display any symptoms. I don't display any symptoms.
So it's kind of like I hope the odds are in her favor is what I mean. So we're looking to the positive side of it until someone tells me that something is wrong.
I'm just going to go on. Everything's great.
Yeah. I mean, that's all you can do.
I think, you know, worrying about it is going to be a thief of your time and your joy because you're like, I want to be excited about this. I don't want to worry about all the other things.
And if that is the worst that happens, it's livable, it's manageable. Do you know what I mean? So I think that that's good, right? You know what? So I got pregnant, sort of similar situation to you.
I got pregnant while my divorce was still fresh. We hadn't been divorced for 365 days.
So my ex-husband had to go file a denial of paternity. Oh, okay.
And then my son's father had to go file acknowledgement of paternity. So do you have to do the same? Yes.
So I did take a pre-birth paternity test. Okay.
And came back into the father, which I always knew that. But in the state of Louisiana, the laws

are very sort of backwards.

Yeah. They need to be

changed. They're not female

friendly. But

if you conceive

a child within the marriage,

it does not matter

if

the father is not the husband,

but the husband

is presumed to be the father.

So essentially, like, legally, he's

the if the father is not the husband, but the husband is presumed to be the father. So essentially, like, legally he's the father? Legally, until paternity is established, which it already has, but it's according to the courts.
It might need to be a court-issued paternity test. Okay.
So he might need to take another one once he's born. But after that, it's the paternity affidavit and all that that you were just talking about.
Okay.

So he won't have to pay like child support or anything because he's leaving the father.

Okay.

Okay.

Do Ken and Ryan have a relationship?

Absolutely not.

Do you still have to talk to Ryan?

We don't have to talk to each other.

We haven't talked to each other in a while.

He reaches out every once in a while. For what? He's still very much healing.
Okay. And so it's to tell me he misses me or I had my hair dyed back to brown.
He's like, you look so beautiful. Since our divorces tomorrow, I did offer like a sit down to give him closure because the last last time he seen me was, I was walking out the door.
So that was the last time he saw you. That's the last time he saw me.
So, so would Ken be a part of the sit down or no? Absolutely not. I never know.
Like, I mean, how do you handle it? So how does he feel about it? How does Ken feel about you having a conversation with, with Ryan? I mean, obviously because mean, obviously, because of the situation, he's not thrilled.

Right.

But he did say whatever would give me closure, he accepts.

However, Ryan has rejected my offer.

And so he doesn't want to have a sit down because it would be too emotional.

And I get that.

I totally get that.

But it's interesting that he would text you and try to have conversation but not be willing to sit down. But, okay, so going back to your book, please tell me what the writing process is like while you're in prison.
Like, are you writing letters or how are you? Phone calls, actually. So a lot of phone calls between Melissa and Michelle, and a lot of the calls are recorded.
So we were able to get transcripts from that and use those. So I would just tell my, you know, tell my stories, tell stuff about what happened and everything.
And we use that as a foundation. So we were able to kind of build off of that.
Um, but building a framework was much more difficult because it's kind of like, okay, where do you want to start? There's such a big timeline. Um, there's so much to talk about and you only get, what, an hour, two hours at most to kind of sum everything up.
You have to sum up a whole 24 years of crap. Well, and also just trying to put things in the book that weren't necessarily public knowledge through the documentaries.
Exactly. Because I was nervous about what was going to be in the book.
So I was like, haven't we seen everything? But there are some details in here that I wouldn't have known unless I read it. Correct.
But so you had to get pretty close with Michelle and Melissa. And so what was that like? Did you ever question like their intentions or have, you know, trust issues? No, I knew Melissa since 2019.

She had been speaking with my family since 2017. Okay.
And so I developed a friendship with Melissa. And so I had a comfortability from there because she has been through a lot herself.
And so we had a lot to talk about. And I developed this connection with her that allowed me to trust her enough to be like, okay, I'm going to start letting you in on the deep stuff.
Yeah. Are you allowed to make money in prison? So like, could you have written this and published it from prison and then made money off of it?

I don't believe so.

Oh, that's interesting.

I don't believe so.

Okay. So you had to wait until – I think it kind of depends on what you're writing about.
Okay.

If you're writing a book on poems, I'm sure you could probably do that. Okay.
But if you're

writing like your life story, I think that is where it gets – A little sticky. A little sticky.

But so do you – or do you keep in touch with Melissa and Michelle now? I do.

Oh, good. I texted them this morning.
Oh, you did? Oh, I love that. So that's cool.
And they're investigative journalists? Yeah. So Melissa is.
Okay. She has podcasts.
She has had multiple documentaries. She's written a couple of books.
Yeah. She's very successful.
And I think that her area is telling people's stories that sometimes just go unheard. And that might mean going and interviewing an inmate or a prisoner.
While you were doing any type of interview, whether it was for your book or for a documentary or anything, did the inmates treat you differently? Like, did they know what you were doing when you were, you know? They did. I tried my best.
I never really talked about it. I didn't tell anyone.
I was trying to keep everything kind of hush-hush. I wasn't trying to be famous or anything.
I was just trying to do my time. So I stayed often very quiet and to myself.
If I had an interview, I'd go up to visitation, do my interview, then come back.

People would ask me and I'm like, oh, yeah, I just I went up to visitation.

I wouldn't be like, oh, so I did this and this.

Yeah, no.

Do they have to get permission to come in?

Like, do you have to give permission to them?

Yes.

So it goes both ways.

So a interviewer or a journalist has to contact the prison, do a request to interview me and I have to accept that request. Oh, interesting.
I always wondered how that worked and if you would be treated differently. You know, I think it's the talk of the camp of the day if they find out, but most of the time it's just kind of like, there's a few, um famous uh inmates that was in my prison with me oh interesting oh i didn't know that yeah um pamela hup who's that um was she an influencer that stabbed somebody no no um she she was convicted of killing a woman um that was one of like her best friends out of like a lover's quarrel so that sounds familiar renee zellweger played her in um a tv show called uh the thing about pam that came out a few years ago so it sounds vaguely familiar on the same wing and everything same housing unit that's i actually dated an inmate in Missouri.
Yeah, I did. He was at it was a federal prison.
Oh, OK. You know, I hear that the federal prisons are a lot better.
Really? Yeah. I should have been on prison brides.
You got your GED in prison. Do you have any plans to further your education? I do.

So right now I'm kind of looking at vocational.

So I'm looking at doing like cosmetology.

So I'm kind of looking in that direction.

Yeah.

Because I want to do something with a skill.

Yeah.

Because it's kind of like I'm 33 years old.

Most of my life has been so sheltered.

You know, eight and a half years of it was in prison. it's kind of like what am I good at yeah you don't even know for a career I don't even know what I have an interest in I like hair and makeup but you know it's kind of like anything beyond that I'm like I don't even know we could get you a podcast oh that'd be fun I have my own network I can talk yeah you can talk I mean you're great at.
So what is one thing that you hope that people take away from the book? I really hope people take away from the book. Like the point of the book, um, is not to rehash my story.
Um, the point of the book is to give hope to the people that are currently going through my story. Um, people that have no idea what Munchausen by proxy is, because I didn't.
People that are in domestic violence relationships, they could relate to the mindset that I was in. Absolutely.
You know, I don't ever want people to read this and be like, oh, I am inspired to go commit a crime. That is not the point of this book.
Right. So the point of this book is about survival.
And whether you have been through domestic violence, sexual abuse, child abuse, I feel like we are all part of a family in a sense. It's a camaraderie.
We could understand each other's thinking. And so this is simply a book of hope.
I love that. I mean, I think too, I've been in a domestic violence relationship, very toxic.
And I think the cycle was sort of the same as like you see in a moment to get out, but then you fall back to the toxic cycle because of the comfort or you're used to the chaos, but you don't know that in the time. So, right? Like people will be like, well, Gypsy, you couldn't have walked that up and walked out of the house.
No, you couldn't because you were in this more of a mindset of, you know, that sort of cycle. It was like a mental, not a game, but like a mental abusive cycle too it wasn't just the physical exactly and that's something that i think is super important because it's like we all have our our haters we all have our naysayers and to the ones that are like well you knew you could walk the whole time why don't you just get up and run away but they don't understand the the mental prison that is abuse.
Right. No, and I think that you're right.
Other people, other forms of abuse and toxic relationships sort of can relate in that way. I think that's a good point.
I do have a couple general questions that are not necessarily related to the book. Did you read anything in prison? What books were you reading in prison? So I read a lot of like educational books.
So I was like always trying to like advance my education. So like dictionaries, psychology books, things like that.
I'm also like a sucker for like little factual books. So like stupid facts that nobody really uses, things like that.
Okay. Okay.
As you stand today, how do you feel about your mom? I, you know, it's an endless journey of forgiveness. Just when I think that I've gotten to a point where I have given her entirely and I'm healed, I have a setback.
So I have learned that it's going to be a journey. The way I feel is, like, I feel more humanity towards her.
I feel like I don't want to bash her. I don't want to villainize her.
In the beginning, I was so eager to just tell the truth, tell my story, you know, tell what happened. It, I didn't realize that she would be branded a villain after that okay it's like I didn't brand her that myself I never say I hated her or I wanted her dead or anything I just wanted out of that lifestyle so you know now almost 10 years later I feel more pity and more, in a sense, understanding of everything that she went through to make her that way.
So you have more empathy and compassion. I have more empathy and compassion for her now.
I understand that. What was it like meeting Ken's family and how has his family reacted to all of this? So I first met his mom back in 2019 when we were engaged the first time.
Okay, the first time. And so I already had like a relationship with her and she's amazing.
And then this year I got to connect with his dad, his stepmom, his sisters, and brother. What was their reaction to you? So, I mean, they knew of me and they've always been super supportive okay um but it's like it's like every time that you meet someone new it's kind of like i will i'm not gonna believe the headlines i'm not gonna believe any of that i'm not gonna go off of social media i'm gonna meet you and decide what i think about you in person absolutely and so um i think they like me i hope they like you really well.
We have a lot of fun together. Do you think that you guys will get married as soon as the baby is born? I told him I'm not going to put words in his mouth if he wants to propose.
That's his decision. It's all in his court at that point.
He knows I love him. He knows where my heart is.
So y'all are not breaking up because I read rumors. Oh, hell no.
Okay. He said I'm pregnant with his baby.
He's not going anywhere. No, we are solid.
Like we're doing really, really good in our relationship. Okay.
So the rumors are just rumors. Yes.
Okay. 99% of what is on TikTok and social media is rumor.
Okay. Well, I'm happy to hear that.
And how close do you guys live to like your extended family, your parents, your siblings? Well, my family is all like close by. So I mean like right in the next street.
But his family is kind of spread out. So his mom's in Texas.
His dad's in Florida. He has sisters in Kansas City.
Oh, wow. So some in Kansas.
So his family is more spread out. Okay.
But you have a support system where you're at. Correct.
Okay, good. That's awesome.
And do you have any rumors that you would like to clarify? No. I mean, I'm sure there's about 200 of them, but I can't go.
You're like, I'm not going through this. I'm not even going there.
Well, I appreciate your time and you coming on Barely Famous Podcast. Where can people go get your book? So it can be found anywhere books are sold online, Amazon, Barnes and Noble,

wherever. And I hope everybody enjoys it.
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