Falling in Love with the Process with Joanna “JoJo” Levesque

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Welcome to the shit show.

Things are going to get weird. It's your fave villain, Kale Wally.
And you're listening to Barely Famous. Thank you so much, Jojo, for coming on Barely Famous.
Oh my God, I'm excited to be here. Yeah.
No, you just released your book over the influence. I can't believe it.
I know. Woo! Out in the world.
How do you feel? I feel great. You should.
You absolutely should. I feel relieved.
I mean, you know how it is to write something and put it out. It's one thing to go through the process of writing it, which is like weird and exciting and terrifying and all the stuff.
And then it unlocks another terrifying thing about sharing it. So, but it's been great.
The feedback from my fans and even from people that maybe didn't know who I was or didn't, you know, have any investment in my story. It's been really nice to hear the things that stuck out to people.
And maybe I think the thing that excites me most is how it makes people think about their own life and maybe think about the way that they view things and the frame that they put on their experience and resilience and redemption and all that. You have a following that responded as if you never left.
You never left the public eye. You never pivoted from singing to acting to Broadway to anything, right? People love you just as much as when you first started.
My fans are amazing. Yeah.
They are. They've kept me alive.
They've kept me going. They're, I mean, Team JoJo to the end.
Absolutely. Yeah, so in different seasons, they've really been like the thing that has propelled me forward and given me the courage and the confidence to even just try to keep trying, you know.
So yeah, they're everything to me. Why now? Why a book now compared to five years ago? well this 2024 marks the 20th anniversary of when i put out my first single my first album

in the the time that changed my life forever. I was 13.
And I was putting out that song, Leave Get Out, and it went number one. I was the youngest artist to have that chart positioning.
And so I wanted to do something to make sense of and commemorate my 20 years as JoJo and while also kind of separating myself from JoJo.

And kind of when I started doing movies, I went by Joanna Jojo Levesque because I'm an only child and I'm my father's only child.

I'm a daughter.

So if the Levesque name isn't going to keep going in my family if it's not for me. So I wanted to do something to honor my dad too.
He passed nine years ago. And so it just felt like with the culmination of 20 years and also with Jeanette McCurdy being around our age and writing a book it gave me the audacity to be like oh I'm not too young to write about my story and actually I have a lot of things to share I think I counted myself out for a long time I'm like oh I need to be at this place or I need to be at this age to share my stories.
But people like you and Jeanette and tons of other examples kind of gave me the balls to be like, why not me? I have a lot to share. I have a unique perspective.
And I don't know what the fuck I'm doing. I've never written a book before.
But damn it, I'm gonna give it a shot. It was cathartic, I'm sure.
Very cathartic. And I have my uncle Scott Blagden, who is a published author.
He wrote a book called Dear Life You Suck and many other books too. But he's such a good fiction writer.
And when I was shopping my concept around to different publishers, he kind of gave me a crash course in how to structure a book about the hero's journey, about everything that he's learned as a professional writer over the years. So between him and then the publishing house and the editor that I ended up going with, I had some handholding and some good teachers along the way.
Good for you because it's scary. I mean, you're putting your heart and soul into something that, you know, people might not know half of what you went through.
So putting it out there can be really scary. So I'm glad that you had that.
Yeah, it was cool. I think that regardless of whether it did well or didn't, the fact that it became a New York Times bestseller is icing on the cake.
I wasn't expecting it. You know what I mean? I know you know what I mean.
Because like, I was just proud of myself for doing it. That was going to be accomplishment enough.

For sure.

And then anything else was icing on the cake. The fact that my mom was okay with me sharing some of our story and all that stuff.
All of that was everything I needed. And then anything else was just an added blessing.
Your mom was okay with everything that you wrote? Okay, yeah. I mean, I asked her.
I was like, there are some... I asked if she wanted to see the first draft, the second draft, the third draft, the fourth draft, the fifth draft.
She didn't want to see it. And I'm like, Ma, don't you want to...
I interviewed her. I asked her for her memory of some things that went down because my mom was deeply depressed during the heyday of my career.
And that was really hard for me as an only child and somebody who felt the weight of her sadness and her struggles. And I felt really alone in that.
But I wanted to find a respectful way to talk about how it affected me while also understanding that it was just as much her story as mine. So trying to find that way to do it.
And once she finally did read it, once I sent her like a more final draft, she was proud of me for finding a way to talk about it and be honest. And I think she felt that I painted her as a whole human being and not just somebody who made mistakes because I'm certainly painting myself as somebody who made mistakes in this book because I am.
You're human. Yeah.
Of course. We all make mistakes and nobody makes more.
I can't say nobody. Most people I feel like make the same sort of level of mistakes as other people, but yours are maybe magnified because you are under a microscope being in the public eye and being in this industry, right? I mean, not really.
I'm to like a really tiny degree, but I think about – there are people who look up to me, but I think about like the way that women in the – particularly the early 2000s were scrutinized. I think of Britney, I think of Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton and how they were just dragged and, and how, how could you not unravel? And like the media pushed, they wanted to see that.
They wanted to see how far they could push a human being. And like, I'm so grateful that I didn't have that experience like I've I've got to really my level of fame is so delicious to me because I get to just walk around with relative anonymity but then you know have really a few beautiful interactions with people throughout the day will they'll say well they'll say really nice nice things to me and then we'll have a moment about music or impact or connection.

And then I just get to like vibe

and just like,

and it's really,

it really works for me.

So you don't necessarily

have any feelings about

maybe not,

obviously no one wants to be dragged

like, you know,

the Britneys,

the Christina,

you know,

people like that.

But so you feel like

you hit the sweet spot

as far as that goes.

Absolutely.

That is so interesting.

I never thought of that as anybody's perspective.

You know what I mean?

I just thought that maybe you were still – maybe because I grew up with you and you're the same age as me,

I looked at you the same way I looked at the Britney, Christina, Jessica Simpson.

Well, they're older than us though.

Yeah, this is true.

They got 10 years on us.

Yeah.

But I don't think I ever thought about age.

Yeah.

I thought about age so much.

And I talk about that in the book because – Well, they're older than us, though. Yeah, this is true.
They got 10 years on us. Yeah.
But I don't think I ever thought about age.

Yeah.

I thought about age so much. And I talk about that in the book because I was so much younger than everybody else when I came out.
And that made me feel really isolated, too. It made me feel so stupid and embarrassed.
And I wanted everybody to think I was older than I was because it wasn't cool. Like the people that were the next range were like Lindsay Lohan and she was maybe 18 or 20 when I was 13 and Sierra who was just coming out at the same time.
She was like 18 or 19 and I was just like, you know, a middle schooler. So I thought about age a lot because people were always like, oh my God, how amazing is it? How young you are? And I'm like, stop talking about how young I am.
You know, and now it's so interesting, like, to not – by far not be the youngest person in the room. And all I want is for young people to just not rush growing up and to enjoy the lack of responsibilities and the lack of pressure.
Like, to just have more fun because I never wanted to be a kid. How did you becoming, you becoming one of the younger, the youngest, you know, artists at that time, how did that change the dynamic of your family? I mean, the dynamic of my family was, you know, my mom and dad weren't together and they both had their separate challenges as everyone does.
And how did that change? I mean, I became the financial provider for my mom and I. She was managing me.
She had been cleaning houses for a living before that. We come from a working class background and, you know, my uncle was a painter and, um, and then we have, we do have some family in real estate and stuff like that.
Um, my dad was fully disabled at a certain point. Um, he was like a headhunter and then he, his boss asked him to like jump in a trash can to like get the trash down, like a big size.
And then he like injured himself. And so neither – I mean my mom worked her butt off to make sure that we never wanted for anything.
And the way it changed the dynamic was that we were making money. Yeah.
But did you understand the pressure of that at all? I think I was used to being in high cortisol environments where like my nervous system was conditioned to do well under pressure, to assume responsibility, to, I think I felt innately that my mom, I knew my mom was stressed about money all the time. I knew that people were telling me that I had this gift from a very young age and people were like, you're going to be rich and famous one day.
And I think I was like, maybe I will. And then I was like, maybe I can get us out of this, of sharing a bed, you know, and of us being poor and of the paint chips falling into my cereal.
Like maybe this is the ticket. I think there was something that was like, you know, and I didn't have stage parents, but my mom was very supportive.
Both my parents were very supportive of me being the eccentric little individual that I was. Over the influence, the title means two things.
Can you talk about it? Yeah. So firstly, it is a nod to the foundation of addiction that I come from.
So my parents met in AA and they were both seeking sobriety and maintained sobriety for various periods of time in their life. And I did get my mom's blessing to talk about this, obviously, because one of the main things about Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous is the anonymity.
So I was like, is this okay to talk about? But it's a part of my journey too. I have the serenity prayer tattooed around my wrist, and it's the most meaningful prayer to me.
It's God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. And that's really how I have tried to live my life.
I always go back to that. So it's about how I felt self-righteously like I would never be like my parents when they fell off the wagon and disappointed me and were human and all these things.
And I was like, I'll never be like that. And then I had my own experiences with addiction in various ways, whether it was substances or relationships, love, sex, validation.
And I found myself under the influence for most of my 20s. Um, and just being so confused

and lost and really held by this, um, feeling of being out of control. And also what it means

is just unsubscribing from old ways of what I thought I needed to be, um, of society or

I don my life. Influencing who I date, where I live, what I eat, anything.
I was so confused about what my values were because so many people had told me what should be important to me from a young age. And I think that this book is kind of a statement of that's in the past.
Sure. Anything from this point forward, can't blame anybody else for it.
You know, at a certain point, we're the grownups. Yeah.
No, but that's sometimes hard because sometimes we get stunted in, you know, maybe emotional development or just anything. And so for you to come to that realization is big.
I was definitely stunted, particularly in relationships. And I, that's a big theme of this book is relationships.
There's a lot of talk about romantic relationships in this book. It's one of my favorite things to talk about.
If we were girlfriends and we were at lunch, I would just be like, tell me everything about your relationship life. I want to know.
I just am so into all of it.

I think it's so fascinating. It's so revealing.
And I realized in writing the book that I had patterns that kept showing up and that I didn't, couldn't see as clearly until I had some, until I had a bird's eyed view of it and I had it in black and white. And I'm like, whoa, my bad behavior in relationships was allowed for a long time.
I think by different people that I chose to be with. I think that they enabled my bad behavior because I was either financially providing or I was, or it made them look good to be with me.
So they would just wanted to keep me around or something like that. And I think that when you become famous from a young age, you're coddled and people don't really tell you the truth.
And then I think I chose I was attracted to partners that would continue to coddle me and not challenge me. And so I'm also over that shit too.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's just not it doesn't feel good to not know what people really think or feel or and to not be a safe place for yourself or for someone else. Right.
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Do you think that you were toxic and also had toxic people around you? And so that's sort of why you maybe attracted people? Yes. I was toxic and I.
In what way? So I just i think that some people have myself included have a perception of who you are and so we don't see that part of it we don't see that part of you oh well i talk about it a lot in more recent albums oh okay yeah not just the book it's okay yeah for example in like my good to know album or my trying not to think about it ep there's a lot of talk of toxicity. And about on-again, off-again relationships, about sex as a drug.
I think about like an intro to my – an intro on one of my projects. It's like feed me love, sex and drugs.
Bring me more. It ain't enough.
Tell me I'm pretty. I need that.
I think I'm too sober. Where the weed at? Pay me attention.
Give me any and everything to forget all that I'm missing. And I'd rather be anywhere than here with me.
But here I am stuck in reality praying for.

I think that's where we ended it.

And it was just, I just felt so uncomfortable with myself that i would do whatever i needed to do to feel good whether it's drink to excess or flirt with somebody else when i'm in a relationship or cheat or um make somebody feel fucked up about themselves i would just and then i would find a way to make it okay. Justify it.
Justify it. And as of like seven years ago, I was like, but how did you get there? How did you get to the, the, the realization that, and to the level of self-awareness that you needed to change those behaviors? I would say having a great therapist.
What made you go to therapy? My life, I was going to die. I was drinking and driving and my mom's family was in a car crash when my mom was three years old.
They were delivering Christmas presents to family friends in Massachusetts and half my mom's family died by a drunk driver. So my mom was in the car.
She survived. My granddad survived.

And my uncle Brian survived.

But her mom, her baby sister, and her other brother died.

Half the car died.

Half the car lived.

And it was all because of a drunk driver.

And I think that when I realized that I was going down that path and going down the path of my parents, too, of I was like, i'm not bad enough to go to rehab um even though i'm engaging in this reckless behavior but like i i asked my manager at the time i'm like should i go to you know and they were like no i don't think it's that bad i'm like i think it is so you didn't even feel like you had the autonomy to make that decision yourself you were sort of seeking it out from the people around you. Yeah.
I was hoping somebody would see how sad I was or see how bad I was and tell me what to do. But thankfully, I did find an amazing therapist who I also talk about in the book, Janice, and she's like a grandmother to me now.
And she was the maternal figure that I needed to actually really guide me and to help me see things in a way and to pick me up where I needed it and to hold me to account where I needed it. I've always been almost so harsh on myself and so I'll take responsibility even when it's not mine.
And I'll take, and I'm big on accountability. But I think I was just in such a place of hurt, particularly because I was in a record deal that was with a label that was no longer functioning.
So I couldn't put out music for a very long time. I felt like my career was dead on the vine and I was angry and people were telling me, you should be the biggest star in the world.
And, you know, how did this happen? And blah, blah, blah. So I'm feeling embarrassed and I'm feeling ashamed and I'm feeling like I don't want my family back in Boston to worry about me.
And they're like, Joanna, you're smart. You should just go to school.
And I'm like, I don't want to go to school. Like, you know, I should go to college and study sociology like I was going to.
I'm like, no, I already deferred. And I just had a lot on my mind.
And I think I acted out in my relationships as a consequence of how afraid I was. You do talk about your parents struggling with addiction.
How do you think that that impacts you on a day to day basis today? I think that, I mean, there's a lot of talk about addiction might be in ourselves. It might be something that we inherit.
I don't know how you feel about that. I'm conflicted.
Some days I'm like, okay, I get it. And some days I'm like, that's how I feel too.
Okay. So I also struggle with,

I have more empathy for other people who struggle with addiction, but I hold a lot of resentment for my mom.

So she is an addict.

Yeah.

So we have inactive.

Yeah.

I'm sorry.

But you understand.

I do.

Do you feel like it still impacts you today or not really?

Yeah.

I'm just really sensitive to,

to that.

I think that when you grow up,

Thank you. Do you feel like it still impacts you today or not really? Yeah, I'm just really sensitive to that.
I think that when you grow up feeling that type of instability, it makes you a certain type of person. Do you feel like you're still sort of in fight or flight now? Yeah.
Flight, to a certain extent. I think I freeze up more than fight or flee at this point.
I'll kind of freeze and then I'll need to like sit with myself. But my defenses definitely still come online when I get overwhelmed or scared.
But I have more tools in my belt than I ever have to deal with those things. Sure.
Like I need my physical practices. I need intense workouts.
I need chill yoga. I need meditation.
I need nutrition. I need journaling.
I need all the things. And if I don't do those things, then it's – I can't be surprised why I'm not okay.
But I realize that that's what I need at this point in my life. So when you say you need all these things, what does a day-to-day look like with Joanna? It depends because if I'm in a musical, for example, if I'm in a show on Broadway or if I'm on tour or if I'm chilling, like it's different, but typically there's some type of movement.
I do like to work up a sweat. So I like to really get my heart rate up and that could be with like interval training or strength training and uh or it could be a hot yoga class or it could be i really don't discriminate i just like to take it to the push it to the limit have you ever done crossfit no have you yeah it's intense it sounds like something that would be right up your alley but just be careful because it's that's that's my concern because i like to do like functional stuff like i like animal stuff like where like bear crawls oh i thought you meant like goat yoga haven't done that yet i also haven't tried that but i do have goats so if you are ever i do i have four so if you ever come to delaware we could maybe i want to do goat yoga i've never done it we could do it we'll put them to work so you as long as you you're not saying that you do all these things every single day you're saying that depending on where you're at mentally you may need to pull one of these tools out of your belt yeah okay i'm tracking yeah okay not all that you're not journaling going to the gym doing all of these things every single day because then when would you have time to sing and go on a book tour into all of yeah i it's that like I'm like I feel into what I need I think like okay I came home from a long trip recently or like a six-day trip that was really intense yeah and I was like I need to like light candles and journal and listen to instrumental music and that's what I need right now and I need to take a bath and I need to wash my dog and I like I just kind of of listen.
And I think I spent a lot of time, particularly in my 20s, which is why I think 30s are a gift. That's how I feel for making it through our 20s.
Now I can finally be like, Joanna, where are you at? What do you what do you need? What would be supportive? It's a reparenting vibe and really feeling into what would be nourishing and nurturing. And the older I get, I mean, I'm not a mother, but I'm figuring out how to mother myself.
And sometimes we have to do that. We've seen a lot of documentaries, social media, all kinds of clips about child stars and how they're affected or things that have happened to them.
And we touched a little bit on how you didn't have that same experience, but how do you remain centered? Or if you ever cross paths or work with any of the child stars who have had a different experience, is that something that you ever talk about with them? Yeah, I've definitely talked with people who started as young or younger than me. I started working professionally when I was six years old.
I think that was my first time getting a paycheck. And I was like doing commercials and doing musical theater.
And I did like an independent movie and TV shows. So to talk with other people, their experiences run across the spectrum.
Some people face like the worst type of neglect and abuse and it's heartbreaking and they didn't want to do it. I mean, they didn't want to be in the industry.
Right. They were forced into it and that's awful.
But that wasn't your experience. That was not my experience.
You wanted to be in the industry. Yeah.
Yeah. You knew from six years old? I mean, what do you know at six years old? My seven only asking my seven year old tells me he's going to be in movies.
So I just I want to know, like to gauge that. I mean, do you do you believe your child at six or seven years old when they say that they want to do those things? Or do you not? I have no idea what it would be like to have a child, period, and then to have them be like, I'm so clear on what I want.

And this is who I am.

And it's like, baby, you know, we change. We evolve.
And you're going to discover new things. But that might be true.
Like, that's so hard. I don't know, you know, if I would, well, what I know right now is 33 year old me is that I would not, it would not be my desire for my children to get involved in the music industry or in entertainment.
I don't think it's, I don't think it's the best foundation for, I don't think it's the best place for a developing mind, a nervous system. I think it, maybe it's better now, but I think that especially if fame is introduced, then they're getting their validation from outside sources and they're learning how to be good workers and how to be good, maybe not to think for themselves.
They're just learning how to make people happy. But what about what's true for them? I just think it's really, really young.
And my mom started to see that when we were already in the industry and when she felt like it was too late. And she was always threatening to pull me out.
And she'd be like, you have to wait until you're 18 now. And I'm like, you're not going to do it.
And she didn't. And I feel I feel bad.
She had no support. You know, she was a single mom and she had no experience.
And everybody was just in her ear and people were trying to take me away from her. And she was so scared and she had her own struggles.
And she I think she deserves a gold star for what a great job she did and for keeping us both alive and okay and um but I I just don't think that it's a good place for kids for when you said that it's not a good place for developing minds that really I mean just that statement alone has changed a little bit for me it is so. It's going to shape a child's sense of self in their nervous system and what they think is important.

And to be exposed and to be working that young.

I don't know.

I know every child is different, but every child is the same in the sense that their brain is mushy. Yeah.
And so that would just be my concern. I think it's hard because even as adults, we look for instant gratification, immediate, you know, the feel-good hormones and everything else.
And so putting a child there where they're not fully developed, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think it can kind of lead to like, it's the dopamine and the cortisol and the serotonin.
I'm like, what are the other natural drugs? All those things. And I think that that can lead to an addictive personality.
Do you think the addictive personality, you're born with that or do you think that you can sort of develop that?

I think it can be nature and nurture.

I think so. And I think that I got a perfect storm of those things and then it created a bit of somebody who I looked in the mirror and I was like, you need to change your ways, bitch.
This is not cool. Yeah.
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Stop overpaying for basics. Cut the BS out of your those pivots, make those pivots? Well, I'd been acting and singing from a really young age.
Like I started out doing theater and it was always something that just made me feel so alive. And I loved being around other theater kids and being in that environment.
It It was just so – felt so nice to and um and then i did a few movies when i was a teenager and um and and throughout my career i've done done some like guest spots and stuff and i think that when i parted ways with my most recent label and went independent i was just like like, I'm not ready. I don't even know what I want to write about.
I'm feeling really disillusioned and discouraged and confused. I'm going to go through periods of that, I think, throughout my life.
And I was like, I would just be going into the studio and for what? So I wasn't ready.

I wasn't sure.

And I wanted to get back to my roots I guess and just have a different experience.

I wanted to get out of LA.

I had been there for almost 14 years.

And I was like, I think LA has made me weird.

I think it's made me a weird person.

California as a whole – let me not say as a whole.

I love California. I do.
But I think LA specifically, every every time i go there i do feel like i talk to robots like i don't it's just this it's very surface level and obviously this is not everybody but how living there for 14 years was it was it like that for a long time or did you not have that experience no i mean i had that experience but i don't want to shit on la because sometimes i feel like i shit on it and i'm like i have la was my home and and it's the place where i know the streets the best i could pick you up from the airport and i wouldn't need to use the navigation i could be like this is this is my city for a long time um but i just think that i had been so far away from my family on the east coast i had all these emotional land mine scattered throughout Los Angeles County of different relationships that I had been so far away from my family on the East Coast. I had all these emotional

landmines scattered throughout Los Angeles County of different relationships that I had been in, different labels and different musical moments that hurt me or that just had some type of effect on me of like disappointment or confusion or whatever. And I just wanted to, if I could, I wanted to step away from it.
So I had an opportunity to be in Moulin Rouge on Broadway. And when I auditioned for it, I prepared for the audition for a really long time because I wanted to feel good about myself whether I got it or not.
I wanted to feel like it was so fun to just go in there. I wanted to go in and be like, I just had a good time.
And I listened to the soundtrack. I learned every single song off of it.
I hired my choreographer to just teach me different styles of dance. We did like dances from the musical Chicago.
And we did like, I was like, can I learn some Fosse stuff? And that was cool. I just wanted to.
And then we did some burlesque stuff. And I just went in there and I was like, whether they think I'm right for it or not, I feel good about the preparation.
And I enjoyed the process. So then the fact that I got to do it was just, again, icing on the cake because the process was something that I fell in love with.
And I knew that it was going to be, for some reason, I innately knew, to use your word, I love that word innate. I innately knew that that experience was going to be connected to something in my next chapter.
And so yeah, now the bug has bit me. I love being a part of this community, and I love living in New York.
I'm a new – to call myself a New Yorker is way too soon. But I live here.
I'm based here now. I'm a Boston girly.
And it's just really – it feels very comforting to be closer to my family. I get to see them more than I ever have.

They're like, are you coming home for the holidays?

I normally come home for the holidays, but now it's like – It's different.

It's different.

Yeah.

It's different.

It feels good to be around the seasons.

And L.A., I do think that there's an air of people will do anything.

And they'll lie, backstab, cheat, steal, blah, blah, blah. And I think that it rubbed off on me in a sense where I felt like a little bit of that desperation and I'm not a desperate person.
Guilty by association? I think it was just proximity to it. Yeah.
So it's not LA. I think it you know, where it's like there's a new crop of talented people who will come in at any time.
And yeah, it's nobody's fault. L.A.
is its own beast, I think. And, you know, it serves, I think, its purpose for the people who need it for that time.
And I might live there again. Maybe I'll keep my words.
There's a lot of great neighborhoods there and places that are far enough outside of Hollywood. Yeah.
Yeah. Did you do book signings in L.A.? I did.
Yeah. How did they go? So great.
Yes. It was great.
I always feel a sense of home when I touch down in L.A. because it's my city for such a long time.
So I did it at the Grove, at the Barnes & at the Grove. Yep.
I know. That was awesome.
And my friend Alison Stoner moderated that and they have a book coming out too, which I'm so excited. I believe it's called my semi well adjusted life despite semi well adjusted despite absolutely everything.
Something like that is the title. So it was really cool because we were supporting each other through the writing of our book.
We were both writing at the same time. And we'd be like, I was a little bit farther than they were in the process.
And it was just really unique to have that experience of we both started out in the industry so young. And we were both this age writing our memoirs.
Really weird. That is so weird.
But like so cool because you know i don't know if you have experienced this but playing the comparison game to other people your peers in the industry what was your experience with that or is your comparison sucks yeah it sucks sometimes you gotta get off of instagram oh i've had to mute people i love them gotta mute people you to. It's like you're thriving and I'm so happy for you.
And it hurts a little bit. And I shouldn't know all of these things.
Like I'm so happy for you. But it's kind of getting in the way of me honing in.
For sure. Because it exists here and it's like sometimes you really need to quiet the noise even if it's wonderful noise yeah and you and i'm genuinely excited for people absolutely i'm actually celebrating others is something that brings me it it fills me up it fills my cup immensely yeah but it can be a bit much instagram is weird no it is so that's what initially that's what when um when you announced the book i thought that over the influence was going to be related to that a journey to getting off of of social media.
That's what I thought. I was like, Over the Influence, I was like, oh, okay, like I'm struggling with this.
You know what I mean? So I was like, hold on. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense.
I definitely take periods of like, just needing to throw my phone in the next room. But yeah, Over the Influence is more like I was under the influence of everybody else's opinion, but my own.

If you could say anything to young children, but specifically girls who want to reach the stars, they want to become famous, they want to sing, they want to dance, they want to act, what would you say? I would say don't get into entertainment because you want to be famous. Okay.
It's not about fame. Fame is fleeting.
Fame is what you cannot base your self-worth on fame because you will be on a never-ending roller coaster of trying to maintain. And then what will you do for it? And then are you going to start doing these things? And then what does it really mean? I would say if you want to live – this would be my – who the fuck am I to give advice? Like everybody's path is so unique.
And I really, really believe that. But like, if it were someone who felt like me and who's sensitive like me, then I would be like, if you want to live a life of being an entertainer or an artist, do it because that's your worldview and you, you need to express and you need to connect.
And that's how you feel alive, but don't do it for fame or validation in, in that regard. And my, my advice would be to make sure that you have other things in your life that make you feel good and connected.
And don't make everything about what you do. Make things about who you are, too.
Because we are more than what we produce. And we're more than what people see on the highlight reels on Instagram and TikTok and whatever other social media platforms matter.

So that's what I would say.

I don't know if that's what you were looking for. No, it is.

It is because I think more so, and this is obviously just my perception, but I think that the process that you were describing with Broadway and falling in love with the process, I'm not saying it's not the same as acting or singing, but it's a little bit different. And so I can see that being, you know, falling in love with the process and doing it because you love it, but is, do you know what I mean? Yes, actually you just crystallized it for me and maybe it's going to change how I answer that in the future.
So thank you for that. You're welcome.
Fall in love with the process. I mean, sports, people talk about this, sports people, I know nothing about sports, but I'm into sports psychology because it's related to the performer.
I mean, if you're in a performance industry, the psychology is similar. So athletes talk about falling in love with the process.
You can't get attached to the result. So you really need to be like, I'm proud of myself.
I did these things. And I'm like, and that needs to be enough.
Because whether you're number one or you're not on the chart at all, that's been my experience. I've had the highest of highs before I had my period.
And then I spent a lot of my life chasing that, like, like an addict basically, and being like, this is how I need to derive my sense of self worth. And then being like, so what if I never reach that? Am I just going to be unhappy for the rest of my life? That's no way to live.
So I do think that learning how to step back, get back to basics, and fall in love with the process also develops a muscle of like work ethic and self-trust and being proud of yourself and having something to do. Yeah.
And being actively a part of the process as opposed to just being like, I'm not really in control, blah, blah, blah. Control the things you can.
It's hard. It's so hard.
I hope I'm not making it sound like it's better than it is. No, absolutely not.
You're not. It's really hard.
No, it's so hard. It's a practice.
It's a devotion. It's really interesting that you said something about, you know, you were at the top of the charts and then you spent a lot of time chasing that, right? I also had that experience with, you I was on Teen Mom right like we that was groundbreaking I feel like to this day I still struggle with my level of comfort when it comes to my relevancy or am I ever going to be as good enough as I was when I was on TV because I'm not on TV anymore does that make sense and so is that sort of what you mean like were at the top of the charts and sort of, you know, maybe if you left music for a little while, you went to acting, you were still sort of chasing that feeling of being number one.
It was just that with the two massive songs that I had as a teenager, you know, and other successful songs throughout my career. But with those ones, I think people were telling me like, you know, and other successful songs throughout my career.

But with those ones, I think people were telling me like, you should be the biggest pop star. And then there were things that were outside of my control and I started to feel bad for myself.
And then I started to feel like a victim and people were like, you are a victim. And then I was like, maybe I am and blah, blah, blah.
So I think it was like a lot of that. But then me being like – then me finding my personal relationship with God and feeling more spiritual and then being like, what is life really about? And like, is it about chasing these things and blah, blah, blah?

And then a lot of fear and then questioning and dark nights of the soul and all of that.

But yeah, to answer your question, I think it's – I'm sure it's similar to that. But I just want to celebrate you for the things that you've built and the way that you've pivoted.
You. No, you.
This is about you. Us.
Okay, fine. I'll take it.
Yeah, no, I get it. Both of us in our own regards have really defied the odds.
You know, like the fact that we're sitting here and are at this point in our lives and careers and continuing to build and grow. And I just think that's really amazing.
A lot of people would have buried their head in the sand. I would agree.
Yeah. Have you talked about some of the things in your book prior to writing the book? Yes.
Some of the things, but most of the things are really being unveiled for the first time in this book. And it's not like I was like, ta-da, I've been waiting all this time.
It was just, it just felt like it was going to be liberating for me to hopefully connect with people who felt similar to me, which is I felt like a, I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment and guilt for different things in my life. And I wanted to find – I wanted to find a way to look at my life in a way where I was – it was a celebration of overcoming and of doing the best with the cards you're dealt.
So that's why I asked because you were saying that we should be celebrated and you truly have faced so many adversities, but you recognize that. I don't think so many people that I know or have interacted with realize, have that awareness that you really have overcome so many odds that are stacked against you? Well, I don't know.
You know, people tell me that all the time. People tell me they're like, wow, you're so resilient.
And so I think I just like, I'm like, oh, maybe I am. So I think that because that's been a part of the narrative that was put on me, I'm like, oh, maybe I should start thinking about myself like that.
Because I feel like, you know, I've had periods where I feel like shit and I feel like nothing and I feel like, what's the point? But it's my fans and it's people who say the nicest things to me on the street or who'll write me letters or who'll come, you know, to the stage door after a performance and tell me about how my music has affected them or how my journey has affected them. So it's not that I'm just necessarily here like giving myself props all the time.
Well, you should. Well, I don't know.
I'm inspired by the stories of other people. Like, again, I don't have any kids.
I think you're a triumph for being a mother of seven. I think that is the hardest job in the world for one, for one kid, let alone seven.
So I'm really like turnt up by thinking about how human beings are just like, they blow my mind all the time. All the time.
Well, I love that. I think that you're incredible.
And I think that I'm glad that you opened up because I think that people also resonate with pain, unfortunately. Yeah, it's very universal.
Because it's relatable.

No one is exempt from the struggle.

And so I think that, you know, as hard as it was, you're really doing a service to people who needed that. You know what I mean? They needed to read this book and they needed to see that you overcame all of these things because they might be going through exactly what you're going through or you went through.
The craziest thing is my friend was at a cafe yesterday and he sent me a picture and he's like, look who's here. And it was my book.
Someone was reading my book at the cafe he was at. And he's like, I know this is really weird, but I just came into town to work with Jojo actually.
And she's one of my good friends. And she would she'd be so excited.
Like, can I tell? She's like,'m on page 85 and this was the book that i didn't even know i needed and please tell her like you know this that and the other and i was like that is the coolest thing i cannot believe that i'm in someone's backpack and that they took out my book and are reading it while they're having their macha latte. I'm like, this is so crazy.
Besides your drive that you've had as a child, right? You said that you started when you were six and that it was sort of innately in you, you think? Yeah. What has been your biggest dream in life? My biggest dream? Mm-hmm.
My biggest dream, I've got to live out my biggest dreams. You have? I just wanted to see the world.
Where's your favorite place? This is going to be such a corny answer, but like I can find something I like about almost anywhere I am. Okay.
And I, that's one of my, I appreciate that about myself. Absolutely.
That I can be in Louisville, Kentucky and be like, isn't this quaint? Like, isn't this precious? Let's go to the whiskey distillery. And I can be, you know, I want to find something charming about each place that I'm in.
I could be in Jakarta, Indonesia and be like, oh, my God, the food here is so amazing. And look at how everybody's covered.
And that's fascinating. And it's different.
Yeah. You know, oh, and the call to prayer, like, wow, what a cool sound that is and how amazing how reverent people are for.
And I can be in Tokyo and I can be like, oh, my God, the public transportation here, like we're all packed packed in so crazy and I'm bumping elbows with strangers and I really love the differences and similarities in when you get to travel so that was a big dream of mine and it still is like I'm still going to get to go to places I haven't there's so many places I haven't been to I haven't been to Africa at all That's a whole continent for me to explore. I'm really looking forward to that.
There's so much of the world. At the end of last year, I did a tour of Australia and New Zealand.
And that was wonderful. It was my first time in New Zealand, which the Maori name for that is Awatearoa.
And that was just such an amazing, amazing blessing to be there. And we were met at the airport by Maori people.
And they gave us a traditional dance and a welcome. And I was in shambles.
It's on my TikTok if you want to see. No, I absolutely will be looking this up.
Weeping. I've always been so moved by the haka, which they perform like before sporting events or sometimes at weddings i'm so moved by um oh so so beautiful and then we they taught us about touching noses it's such an intimate thing it's completely you know people of all ages will just come together and touch noses and breathe in together like i was like i was so intimate human yeah so i just love that love that I mean I'm such a nerd for that stuff such a slut for humanity I just think it's so beautiful all the different expressions of it yeah actually the woman who I hire for all my branding is from New Zealand so I want to ask her about it now and I absolutely love her and what's also cool is that I don't know if you knew, but they also teach Maori language in the schools there.
So whether you're of Maori descent or not, they really seem to make sure that that's at the forefront. And I just think that's so fire.
And I wish we took a page out of that book. Absolutely.
In our country. Absolutely.
You mentioned the sound that they use for call to prayer. Do you talk about your faith? Are you willing to talk about your faith? Yeah, I'm willing to talk about my faith.
How has your faith shifted your perception or just impacted your day-to-day life? Because you've mentioned your spirituality a few times. Yeah.
I'm a faithful woman at this point in my life. I'm a woman of faith.
Have you always been? No. I've been through – that's something I talk about here too is like I grew up Catholic, grew up in the choir loft watching my mom be a soloist, a soprano at our church in St.
Mary's in Foxborough. And I love the ancientness.
I don't know if it's quite ancient but like how old Catholicism is. I love the ritual of it.
I think about, I can hear like my childhood priest being like, with him and him and him in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, almighty father, forever and ever. And I can hear, you know, I can smell the incense and I can hear the bagpipes at the, for a funeral procession and all that is meaningful to me.
Yeah. And then I kind of fell out of Catholicism for a while and then I found non-denominational Christianity.
First it was Pentecostal evangelism. Okay.
I was dating someone in my band who was playing in a Pentecostal church. Okay.
Then I found that. It was a completely different style of music, more gospel, more Christian contemporary.
And then I was saved in that church. Then that pastor was disappointing.
And then I had church hurt from that. And I saw, you know, he was like, there was a scandal where he cheated on his wife.
And then he's like stealing money from church. And I'm like, no.
And then I'm like, I don't know about this stuff. So then I stepped away.
And then I found non-denominational Christianity through in another relationship that I was in. Then when that relationship unraveled, he cheated on me with a girl from the church.
Then I was like, oh, hell no. All you Christians are full of shit.
And then I needed to, and then I was like, oh, but it's not about the people. And we should be mad at the sin, not the sinner.
Or what is the thing? Eat the sin, not the sinner,

or something like that. Because we're all going to sin.
I have found more of a spiritual, like, I love the framework of Christianity. I've explored other frameworks as well.
Yoga has been a part of my life for a long time. And people think that that might be, you know, like, a religion in itself, but I just think of it as a practice and a devotion.

And... I mean, people think that that might be, you know, like a religion in itself, but I just think of it as a practice and a devotion.
And in L.A., I started going to this place called the Center for Self-Realization, which sounds like a cult. I don't think it is, but founded by Paramahansa Yogananda, who wrote Autobiography of a Yogi.
And he brought yoga to the West in like the 1920s. And so I was really interested in like what he espoused was there's all these connections between the major world religions and he was interested in talking about the things that unite as opposed to the things that separate us.
So particularly like the, is it monotheistic, the religions that have one god. But even Hinduism, you know, where there's multiple gods, it's still – there's a lot of like similarities somewhat.
So that's the thing that I was probably – I'm a curious person. Sure.
And I think that what I know for sure is that God is real in my life and that God has saved me many times. And I enjoy being someone that thinks that there's some divine presence in my life that's orchestrating my steps and that I need to work in conjunction with.
I can't just be like, oh, well, I don't need to do anything because God's going to. God's got me.
And God does got me. Yeah, of course.
But I'm here too. Right.
So I don't know. That's a long winded way of kind of talking about my.
And then, you know, there's been my experiences with meditation and psychedelics and that'll break you open to, you know, and that'll make you question things. And I realized through dabbling in that a little bit that there's no end to that.
So sometimes you've got to just choose. What framework do you want to believe in? Because if you get going on this journey, the questions never stop.
Then you start – then you're like blasted off to the universe and then you're like, well, what's – it's just too much. You're talking about psychedelics? I've never experienced anything with psychedelics.
I've never done any. But I recently had a conversation about microdosing.

And I mean, I've heard great things.

Yeah.

Are you thinking about it?

I'm not against it.

I'll say that.

I've also heard last week we were on a work trip, a podcasting work trip, and we were

having a conversation about ketamine, which I think is in the realm of psychedelics where it's like controlled. I don't know much about it.
I know people party on it, which that's what I thought. And I'm not into that.
I don't like into that. I don't think people should do shrooms as a party thing.
I don't think I don't think people should mix alcohol and any of these substances.

I would agree.

I think they're meant to be respected and revered.

I think mushrooms have a lot to teach us.

And I think microdosing can be really life-saving for people.

And especially if you do it in a guided way, be responsible with it, have somebody who really knows what they're doing and talking about.

And probably not just a homie, but like if you could have somebody put you on a protocol, it can be really affirming and help to – so the concept of neuroplasticity is, I think, the ability for our brains to form new pathways. And like if you're in a depressive path, that something like

psilocybin, for example, mushrooms can act as like fresh snow on the ski slopes of your brain and allow you to go down a different path to see things from a different angle. And it's not for everybody it would you know it know, it's not a one size fits all approach, but it has, I think, helped me in seeing things as half full.
And it's, it's, it's not something that you need to do all the time. And yeah, I sound like a massive mushroom head.
No, no, no. I had this conversation, I think episode two of my other podcast is she was talking about it yeah so that's you're literally saying almost verbatim or experience which is really interesting yeah i like marijuana doesn't agree with me right um so i i'm not somebody that can like do that for some people it really relaxes them and that's great to each their own yeah but i i think um i think microdosing can be positive for for some people for sure how did we get on that topic i don't remember i was like spirituality religion psychedelics um switching gears a little bit i work with um an all female all woman team who what women in your life have been the biggest inspiration to you whether it before, you know, maybe in early, early, you know, days in your career and now.
The first woman that comes to mind is my aunt, Connie. She is like, I'm so fortunate to have a tribe of people that have raised me.
My mom is an amazing woman and she makes me so proud with teaching me, showing me through her actions that people can change and you can pivot and you can be your best self at any age. And it's so inspiring.
And my Aunt Connie is definitely like another mother figure in my life. And I would say her and my Uncle Dale were parental figures to me and the most stable foundation that I had throughout my life.
I would run to them, literally run to them from, you know, where I was living in Foxborough down to their house. I'd ride my bike and I'd be like, you know, can I just be here? And, you know, can you adopt me? And she is just, I don't know how she does everything that she does from raising two boys and being an amazing real estate agent and cooking like Martha Stewart and, you know, putting up all the decorations and always just making me feel the most at home.
So just being so kind to everybody. And so I think that she's definitely an inspiration to me.

And I think of different female executives that I've encountered in my life and how they do things.

They're probably more effective sometimes than some of the male executives.

I would agree.

And they also do it in their own unique way,

the way they wield their femininity and use that in such a dope way.

And then also, I mean, we all possess the masculine and feminine.

And I'm just it's been so cool to see that dance.

Does your aunt Connie know how to know that you feel that way about her?

She does.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're really close.

And she came to see Moulin Rouge 11 times over the.

She's your number one fan.

Her and your mom.

Thank you. you feel that way about her she does yeah yeah we're really close and she came to see moulin rouge 11 times over the she's your number one fan you heard your mom yeah my number one fans um yeah between last year and this year when i did my limited engagements at moulin rouge i was like you're coming again you sure you want to see this it's the same show she's like it's different.
I'm like, oh my God, you really love me. This is so, so nice.
I love that. That's my boo.
If you could do another, not Moulin Rouge, anything else in Broadway, what would it be? What role would you audition for? I have some things in the... Oh, okay.
You're not allowed to say? Okay. But so maybe outside of that, is there anything else that you would have loved to? I'm developing some things right now.

Okay, well, that's exciting. Really, really exciting.

And I would love to originate a role and to also more than anything, more than just like being the star because I actually – sometimes it feels really nice to be behind the scenes. And I think the older I get, the more I would really like to actually just help support people to use my resources and my experience to see something come to fruition where I don't need to be the face of it.
I don't need to be the one who's slanging myself around every night. But yeah, so that's what I'm interested in as far as theater.
I just, the community is the thing that is so exciting to me, bringing people together and being around and supporting and being inspired and sharing resources and all that stuff. And I have my own label, Clover Records, as well.
And I want to eventually, I think because I care so much and because I've had such a multifaceted experience as an artist, I've been so, that's why I haven't signed anyone because I'm like, I want to make sure that I have the time and the energy and that I could really support an artist. Um, but I think by the time I'm 40, I'll sign an artist.
So I got like a good chunk of time. But I really want to, yeah, use my experiences for good and to help someone else.
Are you familiar with the author Jodi Pico? Yeah. She wrote a book called By Any Other Name and it's about a woman, two women in Broadway and playwrights and things like that.
That might be of interest to you maybe. For that record.
Yeah, it record. Yeah.
It's hefty. It's about 600-ish pages.
So it's sort of intimidating, but it's one of my

all-time favorite reads. And it's fantastic, but it sounds like it would be right up your alley.

Thank you for that.

By any other name.

Yes. And she's also, Jodi Pico herself is getting involved with theater and Broadway.

So yeah.

Are they turning one of her books into a show?

I'm not sure. I think that was the gist of, from my understanding.
I think that's what it was by any other name is about, you know, playwrights in the 1500s, but also like 2023. In the 1500s? Yeah.
Oh, wow. And it's also about like Shakespeare and, you know, things like that.
But then it's the other timeline is 2023. And the main character is trying to get her show on Broadway and things like that.
So it would just be really cool if you if that interests you to check that out. Yeah, you should definitely check that out.
And maybe even talk to Jodi Pico because that's her her goal is to be more involved with Broadway and theater. Oh, my God.
Well, me,, girl. So, yeah.
Jodi, what's up? Let's chat. A few rapid fire before we wrap up this episode.
This one's controversial. Okay.
NSYNC or Backstreet Boys? NSYNC. Really? I mean, don't you want me to just say whatever's on my mind? I don't know.
That was my thing. Favorite TV show in the 2000s was this circa aquamarine aquamarine was 2000s right yeah it was like 2000 that's a movie okay so tv show american idol okay i was not expecting that i was thinking disney realm i don't know.
Okay. Favorite snack or candy? Like now? Yeah.
Popcorn. Just any kind of popcorn, not white cheddar.
My preference would be like the caramel and the cheddar together. You know, like at the Chicago airport, Garrett's.
I have no idea. Bring me home a tin of that.
It's a brand? Yeah i'm gonna you eat them together yeah okay mix it

all right i'll know i'll note that for next time in chicago and i'll i'll tag you so good or

kettle corn kettle okay i can get behind popcorn i feel like it's pretty universal popcorn one

adjective you would use to describe yourself

happy i love that favorite book do you have a favorite book

Thank you. One adjective you would use to describe yourself.
Happy. I love that.
Favorite book. Do you have a favorite book? Besides your own.
Besides your own. Besides my own.
I have a favorite book of all time. The book that I return to the most is a spiritual book.
It's called The Untethered Soul. Okay.
And I've listened to it and read it at different points in my life. And it's just something that I always return to.
Another book that I really loved, Rick James wrote it in conjunction with Dave Riggs, is that his last name? Who is an autobiographer and it's called Glow. And it's just, it's a really, really good book.
Is it also spiritual is it also spiritual no no okay i'll have to check that one out i love i'm a newbie bookworm okay yeah i've read 76 books this year how do you have time you have seven kids but i heard this same 24 hours but you're you're singing acting on broadway have a record label wrote a book on but you doing – no, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it.
What is your guilty pleasure? Do you have one? I don't feel guilty about my pleasure. No, I don't know.
What is my guilty pleasure? I would say – like, oh, what's that called? Love Island. Is that a show? Yes.
You watch it? Okay. Yeah.
I watched – there's like 40 episodes per season. It's like, there's so many, but I watched, I tapped into this season and I was like, why do I care so much about these kids? But I'm like, it's, it's cute.
But I mean, that's sort of a guilty pleasure, I guess, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Reality TV, any sort of like love show I feel like is guilty pleasure. Yes.
Sex and the City. Do you watch Grey's Anatomy? Have you watched Grey's? No, I never got into it.
Okay. But sex in the city, like how many times have I watched these episodes, but it's a comfort thing to me.
100%. I will go back and obvious.
And now I'm like, you know, in my thirties living in New York and I'm like wearing high heels, strutting down the street. You're like, I am sex in the city.
I'm like, I am. Where can people find your book? It's in Barnes and, Amazon.
Where else? It's anywhere. Okay.
Anywhere you find books. You can, you know, listen to the audio book on Spotify, on Apple, on Audible.
And it is, yeah, check it out. I think the audio book is, if you're on the subway or driving or whatever, it's a good option.
But it's also really nice. It's really nice to see people having this.

Yes.

It's just the wildest thing.

I'm going to do – I run an online book club, so I'm going to do a giveaway with these three.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah.

No, I'm really excited.

I haven't told anyone that you're coming on the podcast because I never know if someone's going to cancel this minute, but I'm so excited.

And where can people find you on socials?

It's just IamJojo.

Okay, cool.

Yeah. I really appreciate you coming on Barely Famous Podcast.
Thank you.