Falling in Love with the Process with Joanna “JoJo” Levesque

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Speaker 8 Welcome to the shit show. Things are going to get weird.

Speaker 8 It's your favede villain, Kale Wower Lower. And you're listening to Barely Famous.

Speaker 8 Thank you so much, Jojo, for coming on Barely Famous.

Speaker 7 Oh my God, I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 8 Yeah. No, you just released your book over the influence.

Speaker 7 I can't believe it. I know.
Woo! Out in the world.

Speaker 8 How do you feel?

Speaker 7 I feel great. You should.
I feel absolutely. Relieved.
I mean, you know how it is to write something and put it out.

Speaker 7 It's one thing to go through the process of writing it, which is like weird and exciting and terrifying and all the stuff. And then it unlocks another terrifying thing about sharing it.

Speaker 7 But it's been great. The feedback from my fans and even from people that maybe didn't know who I was or didn't have any investment in my story.
It's been really nice to hear the things that

Speaker 7 stuck out to people.

Speaker 7 And maybe I think the thing that excites me most is how it makes people think about their own life and maybe think about the way that they view things and the frame that they put on their experience and

Speaker 7 resilience and redemption and all that.

Speaker 8 You have a following that responded as if you never left. You never left the public eye.
You never, you know, pivoted from singing to acting to Broadway to anything, right?

Speaker 8 You people love you just as much as when you first started.

Speaker 7 My fans are amazing. Yeah.
They are.

Speaker 7 They've kept me alive. They've kept me going.
They're, I mean, team JoJo to the end. Absolutely.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 So in different seasons, they've really been like the thing that has propelled me forward and given me the courage and the confidence to even just

Speaker 7 try, to keep trying, you know?

Speaker 7 So yeah, they're everything to me.

Speaker 8 Why now? Why a book now compared to five years ago?

Speaker 7 Well, this

Speaker 7 2024 marks the 20th anniversary of when I put out my first single, my first album, in the time that changed my life forever.

Speaker 7 I was 13 and and I was putting out that song, Leave Get Out, and it went number one. I was the youngest artist to have that

Speaker 7 chart positioning. And so I wanted to do something to make sense of and commemorate my 20 years as JoJo.

Speaker 7 And while also kind of separating myself from JoJo and kind of, when I started doing movies, I went by Joanna Jojo Levesque because

Speaker 7 I'm an only child and I'm my father's

Speaker 7 only child. I'm a daughter.
So if

Speaker 7 the Levesque name isn't going to keep going in my family if it's not for me. So I wanted to do something to honor my dad too.
He passed nine years ago. And

Speaker 7 so it just felt like with the culmination of

Speaker 7 20 years and also with Jeanette McCurdy being around our age and writing a book,

Speaker 7 it gave me the audacity to be like, oh, I'm not too young

Speaker 7 to write about my story. And actually, I have a lot of things to share.
I think I counted myself out for a long time.

Speaker 7 I'm like, oh, I need to be at this place or I need to be at this age to share my stories. But people like you and Jeanette and

Speaker 7 tons of other examples kind of gave me the balls to be like, why not me? I have a lot to share. I have a unique perspective.
And I don't know what the fuck I'm doing.

Speaker 7 I've never written a book before, but damn it, I'm going to give it a shot.

Speaker 8 It was cathartic, I'm sure.

Speaker 7 Very cathartic. And I have my uncle Scott Blagdon, who is a published author.
He wrote a book called Dear Life You Suck and many other books, too.

Speaker 7 But he's such a good fiction writer.

Speaker 7 And when I was shopping my concept around to different publishers, he kind of gave me a crash course in how to structure a book, about the hero's journey, about everything that he's learned as a professional writer over the years.

Speaker 7 So between him him and then the publishing house and the editor that I ended up going with, I had some handholding and some good teachers along the way.

Speaker 8 Good for you, because it's scary. I mean, you're putting your heart and soul into something that, you know, people might not know half of what you went through.

Speaker 8 So, putting it out there can be really scary. So, I'm glad that you had that.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it was cool. I think that regardless of whether it did well or didn't, the fact that it became a New York Times bestseller is icing on the cake.
I wasn't expecting it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 7 I know you know what I mean.

Speaker 7 Because, like, I was just proud of myself for doing it. That was going to be accomplishment enough.
For sure.

Speaker 7 And then anything else was icing on the cake. The fact that my mom was okay with me sharing some of our story and all that stuff, all of that was everything I needed.

Speaker 7 And then anything else was just an added blessing.

Speaker 8 Your mom was okay with everything that you wrote?

Speaker 7 Okay, yeah. I mean, I asked her, I was like, there are some.

Speaker 7 I asked if she wanted to see the first draft, the second draft, the third draft, the fourth draft, the fifth draft. She didn't want to see it.
And I'm like, Ma, like, don't you want to?

Speaker 7 I interviewed her. I asked her for her memory of some things that went down because my mom was deeply depressed during the heyday of my career.

Speaker 7 And that was really hard for me as an only child and somebody who

Speaker 7 felt the weight of her

Speaker 7 sadness and her struggles. And I felt really alone in that.
But I wanted to find a respectful way to talk about how it affected me while also

Speaker 7 understanding that it was just as much her story as mine. So trying to find that way to do it.
And once she finally did read it, once I sent her like a more final draft,

Speaker 7 she

Speaker 7 was proud of me for finding a way to talk about it and be honest. And I think she felt that I painted her as a whole human being and not just somebody who made mistakes.

Speaker 7 Because I'm certainly painting myself as somebody who made mistakes in this book because I am.

Speaker 8 You're human. Yeah.
Of course, we all make mistakes, and nobody makes more. I can't say nobody.

Speaker 8 Most people I feel like make the same sort of level of mistakes as other people, but yours are maybe magnified because you are under a microscope being in the public eye and being in this industry, right?

Speaker 7 I mean, not really. I'm to like a really tiny degree, but I think about

Speaker 7 there are people who look up to me, but I think about like the way that

Speaker 7 women in the

Speaker 7 particularly the early 2000s were scrutinized. I think of Brittany, I think of Lindsay Lowen and Paris Hilton, and how they were just dragged.
And

Speaker 7 how could you not

Speaker 7 unravel? And like the media pushed, they wanted to see that. They wanted to see how far they could push a human being.
And like, I'm so grateful that I didn't have that experience.

Speaker 7 Like, I've got to really,

Speaker 7 my level of fame is so delicious to me because I get to just walk around with relative anonymity, but then,

Speaker 7 you know, have really a few beautiful interactions with people throughout the day. Well, they're saying, well, they're say, they'll say really nice things to me.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 And then we'll have a moment about music or impact or connection. And then I just get to like vibe and just like, and it's really,

Speaker 7 it really works for me.

Speaker 8 So you don't necessarily have any feelings about maybe not,

Speaker 8 obviously no one wants to to be dragged, like, you know, the Britneys, the Christina, you know, people like that. But so you feel like you hit the sweet spot as far as that goes.

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 8 That is so interesting. I never thought of that as anybody's perspective.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 8 I just thought that maybe you were still, maybe because I grew up with you and you're the same age as me, I looked at you the same way I looked at the Britney, Christina, Jessica Simpson.

Speaker 7 Well, they're older than us, though. Yeah, this is true.
They got 10 years on us.

Speaker 8 Yeah, but I don't think I ever thought about age.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I thought about age so much. And I talk about that in the book because I was so much younger than everybody else when I came out.

Speaker 7 And that made me feel really isolated, too. It made me feel so stupid and embarrassed, and I wanted everybody to think I was older than I was because it wasn't cool.
Like

Speaker 7 the people that were

Speaker 7 the next range were like Lindsay Lowen, and she was maybe 18 or 20 when I was 13, and Sierra, who was just coming out at the same time, she was like 18 or 19, and I was just like,

Speaker 7 you know, a middle schooler. So I thought about age a lot because people were always like, oh my God, how amazing is it how young you are? And I'm like, stop talking about how young I am.

Speaker 7 You know, and now it's, it's so interesting, like, to not, to by far, not be the youngest person in the room.

Speaker 7 And all I want is for young people to just not rush growing up and to enjoy the lack of responsibilities and the lack of pressure, like to just have more fun. Because I never wanted to be a kid.

Speaker 8 How did you

Speaker 8 becoming, you becoming one of the younger, the youngest, you know, artist at that time, how did that change the dynamic of your family?

Speaker 7 I mean, the dynamic of my family was,

Speaker 7 you know, my mom and dad weren't together, and they both had their

Speaker 7 separate challenges, as everyone does.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 how did that change the dynamic? I mean, I became

Speaker 7 the financial provider for my mom and I. She was managing me.
She had been cleaning houses for a living before that. We come from a working-class background, and you know, my uncle was a painter,

Speaker 7 and

Speaker 7 then we do have some family in real estate and stuff like that.

Speaker 7 My dad was fully disabled at a certain point. He was like a headhunter, and then he

Speaker 7 his boss asked him to like jump in a trash can to like get the trash down, like a big size, and he then he like injured himself. And

Speaker 7 so

Speaker 7 neither I mean my mom worked worked her butt off and to make sure that we never wanted for anything and

Speaker 7 the way it changed the dynamic was

Speaker 7 that

Speaker 8 we were making money yeah but did you understand the pressure of that at all

Speaker 7 I think I was used to being in high

Speaker 7 cortisol environments where like my nervous system was conditioned to do well under pressure, to assume responsibility,

Speaker 7 to

Speaker 7 I think I felt innately that

Speaker 7 my mom, I knew my mom was stressed about money all the time.

Speaker 7 I knew that people were telling me that I had this gift from a very young age, and people were like, you're going to be rich and famous one day. And I think I was like,

Speaker 7 maybe I will.

Speaker 7 And then I was like, maybe

Speaker 7 I can get us out of this. of sharing a bed, you know, and of us being poor and of the paint chips falling into my cereal.
Like, maybe this is the ticket.

Speaker 7 I think there was something that was like, you know, and I didn't have stage parents, but my mom was very supportive.

Speaker 7 Both my parents were very supportive of me being the eccentric little individual that I was.

Speaker 8 Over the influence, the title means two things. Can you talk about it?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So firstly, it is a nod to

Speaker 7 the foundation of addiction that I come from. So my parents met in AA and they were both seeking sobriety and maintained sobriety for various periods of time in their life.

Speaker 7 And I did get my mom's blessing to talk about this, obviously, because one of the main things about Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous is the anonymity.

Speaker 7 So, I was like, is this okay to talk about? But, you know, it's a part of my journey, too. I have the serenity prayer tattooed around my wrist.

Speaker 7 And it's the most meaningful prayer to me. It's, God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Speaker 7 And that's really how I have tried to live my life. I always go back to that.
So

Speaker 7 it's about how I felt self-righteously like I would never be like my parents when they fell off the wagon and disappointed me and were human and all these things.

Speaker 7 And I was like, I'll never be like that. And then I had my own experiences with addiction in various ways, whether it was substances or relationships, love, sex,

Speaker 7 validation. And I found myself under the influence for most of my 20s.

Speaker 7 And just being so confused and lost, and really

Speaker 7 held by this

Speaker 7 feeling of being out of control. And also, what it means is just unsubscribing from old ways of what I thought I needed to be,

Speaker 7 of

Speaker 7 society society or

Speaker 7 executives or managers or handlers or an industry influencing the way that I live my life,

Speaker 7 influencing

Speaker 7 who I date,

Speaker 7 where I live,

Speaker 7 what I eat,

Speaker 7 anything. I was so

Speaker 7 confused about what my values were because

Speaker 7 so many people had told me what I should,

Speaker 7 what should be important to me from a young age and

Speaker 7 I think that this book is kind of a statement of

Speaker 7 that's in the past sure anything from this point forward

Speaker 8 can't blame anybody else for you know at a certain point we're we're we're the grown-ups yeah no but that's sometimes hard because sometimes we get stunted in you know, maybe emotional development or just anything.

Speaker 8 And so for you to come to that realization is big.

Speaker 7 I was definitely stunted, particularly in relationships. And that's a big theme of this book is relationships.
There's a lot of talk about romantic relationships in this book.

Speaker 7 It's one of my favorite things to talk about. If we were girlfriends and we were at lunch, I would just be like, tell me everything about your relationship life.
I want to know.

Speaker 7 I just am so into all of it. I think it's so fascinating.
It's so revealing. And I realized in writing the book that I had patterns that kept showing up and that I didn't

Speaker 7 couldn't see as clearly until I had some, until I had a bird's eye view of it and I had it in black and white and I'm like whoa my bad behavior in relationships was

Speaker 7 allowed for a long time I think

Speaker 7 by

Speaker 7 different people that I chose to be with I think that they enabled my bad behavior because I was either financially

Speaker 7 providing or I was

Speaker 7 or it made them look good to be with me so they would just wanted to keep me around or something like that

Speaker 7 And I think that when you become famous from a young age, you're coddled and people don't really tell you the truth.

Speaker 7 And then I think I chose, I was attracted to partners that would continue to coddle me and not challenge me. And so I'm also over that shit, too.

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah, it's just not, it doesn't feel good to not know what people really think or feel or

Speaker 7 and to not be a safe place for yourself or for someone else. Right.
So that's a part of it too.

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Speaker 8 Do you think that you

Speaker 8 were toxic and also had toxic people around you? And so that's sort of why you maybe attracted people?

Speaker 7 Yes. Okay.
I was toxic and I.

Speaker 8 In what way? So I just, I think that some people have, myself included, have a perception of who you are.

Speaker 7 are and so we don't see that part of it we don't see that part of you oh well i talk about it a lot in more recent albums oh okay yeah not just the book it's in okay yeah for example in like my good to know album or my try not to think about it ep there's a lot of talk of toxicity um and about on again off again relationships about sex as a drug um i think about like an intro to my

Speaker 7 an intro on one of my projects. It's like, feed me love, sex, and drugs.
Bring me more. It ain't enough.
Tell me I'm pretty. Yeah, I need that.
I think I'm too sober. Where the weed at?

Speaker 7 Pay me attention. Give me any and everything to forget all that I'm missing.
And I'd rather be anywhere than here with me. But here I am, stuck in reality, praying for,

Speaker 7 praying for

Speaker 7 eternity, because the mirror won't lie to me no more.

Speaker 7 And I can't hide from me no more.

Speaker 7 I think that's where we ended it.

Speaker 7 And it was just,

Speaker 7 I just felt so uncomfortable with myself that I would do whatever I needed to do to feel good, whether it's drink to excess or flirt with somebody else when I'm in a relationship or cheat or

Speaker 7 make somebody feel fucked up about themselves. I would just,

Speaker 7 and then I would find a way to make it okay. Justify it.
Justify it. And as of like seven years ago, I was like.

Speaker 8 But how did you get there? How did you get to the realization that and to the level of self-awareness that you needed to change those behaviors?

Speaker 7 I would say having a great therapist.

Speaker 8 What made you go to therapy?

Speaker 7 My life, I was going to die.

Speaker 7 I was drinking and driving and my mom's family was in a car crash when my mom was three years old.

Speaker 7 They were delivering Christmas presents to family friends in Massachusetts and half my mom's family died by a drunk driver.

Speaker 7 So my mom was in the car, she survived, my granddad survived, and my uncle Brian survived. But her mom, her baby sister, and her other brother died.
Half the car died, half the car lived.

Speaker 7 And it was all because of a drunk driver. And I think that when I realized that I was going down that path and going down the path of my parents, too,

Speaker 7 I was like, I'm not bad enough to go to rehab,

Speaker 7 even though I'm engaging in this reckless behavior. But like, I asked my manager at the time, I'm like, should I go to, you know, and they were like, no, I don't think it's that bad.
I'm like,

Speaker 8 I think it is. So you didn't even feel like you had the autonomy to make that decision yourself.
You were sort of seeking it out from the people around you.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I was hoping somebody would see how sad I was or see how bad I was and

Speaker 7 tell me what to do. Right.

Speaker 7 But thankfully, I did find an amazing therapist who I also talk about in the book, Janice, and she's like

Speaker 7 a grandmother to me now.

Speaker 7 She was the maternal figure that I needed to actually really guide me and to

Speaker 7 help me see things in a way and to

Speaker 7 pick me up where I needed it and to hold me to account where I needed it. I've always been almost so harsh on myself and so

Speaker 7 I'll take responsibility even when it's not mine. Okay.
And I'll take, and I'm big on accountability, but

Speaker 7 I think I was just in such a place of hurt, particularly because I was in a

Speaker 7 record deal that was with a label that was no longer functioning, so I couldn't put out music for a very long time. I felt like my career was dead on the vine, and I was angry.

Speaker 7 People were telling me, You should be the biggest star in the world. And, you know, how did this happen? And blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 7 So I'm feeling embarrassed, and I'm feeling ashamed, and I'm feeling like I don't want my family back in Boston to worry about me. And they're like, Joanna, you're smart.
You should just go to school.

Speaker 7 And I'm like, I don't want to go to school. Like, you know, I should go to college and study sociology.
Like, I was going to. I'm like, no, I already deferred.
And

Speaker 7 I just had a lot on my mind. And I think I acted out in my relationships as a consequence of how afraid I was.

Speaker 8 You do talk about your parents struggling with addiction.

Speaker 8 How do you think that that impacts you on a day-to-day basis today?

Speaker 7 I think that,

Speaker 7 I mean,

Speaker 7 there's a lot of talk about

Speaker 7 addiction might be in ourselves. You know, it might be something that we inherit.
I don't know how you feel about that.

Speaker 8 I'm conflicted.

Speaker 7 Me too.

Speaker 8 Some days I'm like, okay, I get it. And some days I'm like, that's how I feel too.
Okay.

Speaker 8 So I also struggle with, I have more empathy for other people who struggle with addiction, but I hold a lot of resentment for my mom.

Speaker 7 So she is

Speaker 7 an addict.

Speaker 7 Yeah. So we have inactive.
Yeah. I'm sorry.

Speaker 8 But you understand. I do.
Do you feel like it still impacts you today or not really?

Speaker 7 Yeah, I'm just really sensitive to that. I think that

Speaker 7 when you grow up

Speaker 7 feeling that type of instability, it makes you a certain type of person.

Speaker 8 Do you feel like you're still sort of in fight or flight now?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Flight,

Speaker 7 to a certain extent, I think I freeze up more than fight or flee at this point.

Speaker 7 I'll kind of freeze and then I'll need to like

Speaker 7 sit with myself.

Speaker 7 But my

Speaker 7 defenses definitely still come online

Speaker 7 when I get overwhelmed

Speaker 7 or scared.

Speaker 7 But I have more tools in my belt than I ever have to deal with those things. Sure.
Like I need

Speaker 7 my physical practices. I need

Speaker 7 intense workouts. I need

Speaker 7 chill yoga. I need meditation.
I need nutrition.

Speaker 7 I need journaling. I need all the things.
And if I don't do those things, then it's, I can't be surprised why I'm not okay.

Speaker 7 But I realize that that's what I need at this point in my life.

Speaker 8 So when you say you need all these things, what does a day-to-day-to-day look like with Joanna?

Speaker 7 It depends because

Speaker 7 if I'm

Speaker 7 in a musical, for example, if I'm in a show on Broadway, or if I'm

Speaker 7 on tour, or if I'm

Speaker 7 chilling, like it's different, but typically there's some type of movement. I do like to work up a sweat.

Speaker 7 So, I like to really get my heart rate up. And that could be with like interval training or strength training,

Speaker 7 or it could be a hot yoga class, or it could be,

Speaker 7 I really don't discriminate. I just like to take it to the push it to the limit.

Speaker 8 Have you ever done CrossFit?

Speaker 7 No, have you? Yeah.

Speaker 8 It's intense. It sounds like something that would be right up your alley, but just be careful because it's.

Speaker 7 That's my concern because I like to do like functional stuff. Like I like animal stuff, like where like bear crawls.

Speaker 8 Oh, I thought you meant like goat yoga.

Speaker 8 haven't done that yet i also haven't tried that but i do have goats so if you were ever i do i have four so if you ever come to delaware we could maybe i want to do goat yoga i've never done it we could do it we'll put them to work

Speaker 8 so you as long as you you're not saying that you do all these things every single day you're saying that depending on where you're at mentally you may need to pull one of these tools out of your belt yeah okay i'm tracking yeah okay not all the you're not journaling going to the gym doing all of these things every single day because then when would you you have time to sing and go on a book tour and do all of yeah, it's that like, I'm like, I feel into what I need, I think.

Speaker 7 Like, I came home from a long trip recently, or like a six-day trip that was really intense. Yeah.
And I was like, I need to like light candles and journal and listen to instrumental music.

Speaker 7 And that's what I need right now. And I need to take a bath and I need to wash my dog.
And I like, I just kind of listen.

Speaker 7 And I think I spent a lot of time, particularly in my 20s, which is why I think a 30s are a gift. That's how I feel from making it through our 20s.

Speaker 7 Now I can finally be like, Joanna, where are you at?

Speaker 7 What do you need? What would be supportive? It's a reparenting vibe.

Speaker 7 And really feeling into what would be nourishing and nurturing.

Speaker 7 And the older I get, I mean, I'm not a mother, but I'm figuring out how to mother myself.

Speaker 8 And sometimes we have to do that. We've seen a lot of documentaries, social media, all kinds of clips about child stars and how they're affected, or you know, things that have happened to them.

Speaker 8 And we've talked, we touched a little bit on how you didn't have that same experience, but how do you remain centered?

Speaker 8 Or if you ever cross paths or work with any of the child stars who have had a different experience, is that something that you ever talk about with them?

Speaker 7 Yeah, I've definitely talked with

Speaker 7 people who started as young or younger than me.

Speaker 7 I started working professionally when I was six years old. I think that was my first time getting a paycheck.
And I was like doing commercials and doing musical theater.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 I did like an independent movie and TV shows. So to talk with other people,

Speaker 7 their experiences run

Speaker 7 across the spectrum. Some people face like the worst type of neglect and abuse and

Speaker 7 it's heartbreaking. And they didn't want to do it.
I mean, they didn't want to be in the industry. They were forced into it.
And that's

Speaker 7 awful.

Speaker 8 But that wasn't your experience.

Speaker 7 That was not my experience.

Speaker 8 You wanted to be in the industry.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8 You knew from six years old.

Speaker 7 I mean, what do you know at six years old?

Speaker 8 I'm only asking, my seven-year-old tells me he's going to be in movies. So I just, I want to know, like, to gauge that.
I mean,

Speaker 8 do you believe your child at six or seven years old when they say that they want to do those things or do you not?

Speaker 7 I have no idea what it would be like to have a child, period.

Speaker 7 And then to have them be like, I'm so clear on what I want.

Speaker 7 And this is who I am. And it's like, baby,

Speaker 7 you know, we change, we evolve, and you're going to discover new things.

Speaker 7 But that might be true. Like, that's so hard.

Speaker 7 I don't know, you know, if I would, well, what I know right now is 33-year-old me, is that I would not, it would not be my desire for my children to get involved in.

Speaker 7 the music industry or in entertainment. I don't think it's,

Speaker 7 I don't think it's the best foundation for,

Speaker 7 I don't think it's the best place for a developing mind,

Speaker 7 a nervous system.

Speaker 7 I think it, maybe it's better now, but I think that, especially if fame is introduced, then they're getting their validation from outside sources and they're learning how to be good workers and how to be good,

Speaker 7 maybe not to think

Speaker 7 for themselves. They're just learning how to

Speaker 7 make people happy. But what about what's true for them? I just think it's really, really young.

Speaker 7 And my mom started to see that when we were already in the industry and when she felt like it was too late. And she's like, she kept, she was always threatening to pull me out.

Speaker 7 And she'd be like, you have to wait till you're 18 now. And I'm like,

Speaker 7 you're not going to do it. And she didn't.
And I feel bad. She had no support.
You know, she was a single mom and she had no experience.

Speaker 7 And everybody was just in her ear, and people were trying to take me away from her. And she was so scared.
And she had her own struggles. And

Speaker 7 I think she deserves a gold star for what a great job she did and for keeping us both alive and okay.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 I just don't think that

Speaker 7 it's a good place for kids.

Speaker 8 When you said that it's not a good place for developing minds, that really sh I mean, just that statement alone has changed a little bit for me.

Speaker 7 It is so influential. It's going to shape a child's sense of self in their nervous system and

Speaker 7 what they think is important, and to be exposed

Speaker 7 and to be working that young.

Speaker 7 I don't know. I know every child is different, but

Speaker 7 every child is the same in the sense that their brain is mushy.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And so that would just be my concern.

Speaker 8 I think it's hard because even as adults, we look for instant gratification, immediate, you know, the feel-good hormones and everything else.

Speaker 8 And so putting a child there where they're not fully developed, I think that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 7 I think it can kind of lead to

Speaker 7 like

Speaker 7 it's the dopamine and the cortisol and the serotonin. I'm like, what are the other natural drugs? All those things.
And I think that that can lead to an addictive personality.

Speaker 8 Do you think the addictive personality, you're born with that, or do you think that you can sort of develop that?

Speaker 7 I think it can be nature and nurture. I think so.
And I think that I got a perfect storm of those things. and then it created a bit of

Speaker 7 somebody who I looked in the mirror and I was like,

Speaker 7 you need to change your ways, bitch.

Speaker 7 This is not cool. Yeah.

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Speaker 8 When you pivoted from, I don't know if pivots are the right word, but from music to acting to Broadway,

Speaker 8 what was, I guess, the turning point for you that made you sort of do those pivots, make those pivots?

Speaker 7 Well, I'd been acting and singing from a really young age. Like, I started out doing theater, and it was always something that just made me feel so alive.

Speaker 7 And I loved being around other theater kids and being in that environment. It was just so, it felt so nice to me.
And

Speaker 7 then I did a few movies when I was a teenager. And

Speaker 7 throughout my career, I've done some like guest spots and stuff. And I think that

Speaker 7 when

Speaker 7 I parted ways with my most recent label and went independent,

Speaker 7 I was just like,

Speaker 7 I'm not ready. I don't even know what I want to write about.
I'm feeling really disillusioned and discouraged and

Speaker 7 confused. I'm going to go through periods of that, I think, throughout my life.
And I was like,

Speaker 7 I would just be going into the studio to,

Speaker 7 and for what?

Speaker 7 So I wasn't ready. I wasn't sure.
And I wanted to get back to my roots, I guess, and just have a different experience. I wanted to get out of L.A.
I'd been there for almost 14 years.

Speaker 7 And I was like, I think L.A. has made me weird.
I think it's made me a weird person.

Speaker 8 California as a whole.

Speaker 7 Let me not say as a whole. I love California.

Speaker 8 I do, but I think LA specifically, every time I go there, I do feel like I talk to robots. Like I don't,

Speaker 8 it's just this. It's very surface level.
And obviously, this is not everybody, but how living there for 14 years, was it like that for a long time? Or did you not have that experience?

Speaker 7 No, I mean, I had that experience, but I don't want to shit on LA because sometimes I feel like I shit on it.

Speaker 7 And I'm like, I have, LA was my home, and it's the place where I know the streets the best. I could pick you up from the airport, and I wouldn't need to use the navigation.
I could be like,

Speaker 7 this is my city for a long time.

Speaker 7 But I just think that I had been so far away from my family on the East Coast.

Speaker 7 I had all these emotional landmines scattered throughout Los Angeles County of different relationships that I had been in, different

Speaker 7 labels, and different

Speaker 7 musical

Speaker 7 moments that hurt me or that

Speaker 7 just had some type of effect on me of like disappointment or confusion or or whatever.

Speaker 7 And I just wanted to,

Speaker 7 if I could, I wanted to step away from it. Yeah.

Speaker 7 So I

Speaker 7 had an opportunity to

Speaker 7 be in Moulin Rouge on Broadway. And when that I auditioned for it, I

Speaker 7 prepared for the audition for a really long time because I wanted to feel good about myself whether I got it or not. I wanted to feel like

Speaker 7 it was so fun to just go in there. I wanted to go in and be like,

Speaker 7 just like I just had a good time. Yeah.
And I knew, I listened to the soundtrack. I learned every single song off of it.
I hired my choreographer to just teach me different styles of dance.

Speaker 7 We did like dances from the musical Chicago. And we did like, I was like, can I learn some fossil stuff? And that was cool.
I just wanted to. And then we did some burlesque stuff.
And

Speaker 7 I just went in there and I was like,

Speaker 7 whether they think I'm right for it or not, I feel good about the preparation and I enjoyed the process.

Speaker 7 So then the fact that I got to do it was just, again, icing on the cake because the process was something that I fell in love with.

Speaker 7 And I knew that it was going to be, for some reason, I innately knew, to use your word, I love that word innate.

Speaker 7 I innately knew that that experience was going to be connected to something in my next chapter.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 so yeah, I... Now the bug has bit me.
I love being a part of this community and I love living in New York. I'm a new

Speaker 7 to call myself a New Yorker is way too soon, but I live here. I'm based here now.

Speaker 7 I'm a Boston girly, and it's just really, it feels very comforting to be closer to my family. I get to see them more than I ever have.
They're like, are you coming home for the holidays?

Speaker 7 You know, I normally come home for the holidays, but now it's like, it's different. It's different.
Yeah. It's different.
It feels good to be around the seasons. And

Speaker 7 LA, I do think that there's an air of people will do anything.

Speaker 7 And they'll lie, backstab, cheat, steal, blah, blah, blah. And I think that it rubbed off on me in a sense.
Okay. Where I felt like a little bit of that desperation.
And I'm not a desperate person. I

Speaker 8 guilty by association?

Speaker 7 I think it was just proximity to it. Yeah.
Yeah. So, um,

Speaker 7 and it's, it's not LA. I think it's an industry, um, you know, where it's like there's a new crop of talented people who will come in at any time.
And

Speaker 7 yeah, it's

Speaker 7 nobody's fault.

Speaker 8 LA is its own beast, I think. And it, you know, it serves, I think, its purpose for the people who need it for that time.

Speaker 7 And I might live there again, maybe

Speaker 7 words.

Speaker 7 There's a lot of great neighborhoods there and places that are far enough outside of Hollywood. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 Did you do book signings in LA? I did. Yeah.
How did they go?

Speaker 7 So great. Yes.
It was great. And I always feel a sense of home when I touch down in L.A.
because it's my city for such a long time. So I did it at the Grove, at the Barnes Noble at the Grove.

Speaker 7 Yep, I know too much. Did you know the one? Yep.
So that was awesome. And

Speaker 7 my friend Allison Stoner moderated that, and they have a book coming out too, which I'm so excited. I believe it's called My Semi-Well Adjusted Life Despite

Speaker 7 Semi-Well Adjusted Despite Absolutely Everything. Something like that is the title.
So it was really cool because we were supporting each other through the writing of our book.

Speaker 7 We were both writing at the same time. And we'd be like, I was a little bit farther than they were in the process.

Speaker 7 And it was just really unique to have that experience. We both started out in the industry so young,

Speaker 7 and we were both this age writing our memoirs. Really weird.

Speaker 8 That is so weird, but like cool, but like so cool because you know, I don't know if you have experienced this, but playing the comparison game to other people, your peers in the industry.

Speaker 8 What was your experience with that?

Speaker 7 Or is your experience? Comparison sucks. Yeah.
It sucks. Sometimes you got to get off of Instagram.

Speaker 8 Oh, I've had to mute people. I love them.

Speaker 7 Got to mute people.

Speaker 8 You have to.

Speaker 7 It's like, you're thriving, and I'm so happy for you. And it, and I, and it hurts a little bit.

Speaker 7 It's like, and I shouldn't know all of these things. Like, I'm so happy for you.
But it's kind of getting in the way of me honing in. For sure.

Speaker 7 Because it exists here, and it's like sometimes you really need to quiet the noise, even if it's wonderful noise. Yeah.
And you, and I'm genuinely excited for people. Absolutely.

Speaker 7 I'm actually celebrating others is something that brings me. It fills me up.
It fills my cup.

Speaker 8 Dimension. It really does.

Speaker 8 yeah but it can be a bit much instagram is weird no it is so that's what initially that's what when um when you announced the book i thought that over the influence was going to be related to that a journey to getting off of social that's what i thought i was like over the influence i was like oh okay like i'm struggling with this you know what i mean so yeah hold on yeah no that totally makes sense yeah i mean i definitely take periods of like

Speaker 7 just needing to throw my phone 100

Speaker 7 but yeah over the influence is more like i was under the influence of everybody else no right

Speaker 7 but my own.

Speaker 8 If you could say anything to

Speaker 8 young children, but specifically girls

Speaker 8 who want to reach the stars, they want to become famous, they want to sing, they want to dance, they want to act, what would you say?

Speaker 7 I would say don't get into entertainment because you want to be famous. Okay.
It's not about fame. Fame is fleeting.
Fame is what

Speaker 7 you cannot base your self-worth on fame because you will be on a never-ending roller coaster of trying to maintain, and then what will you do for it?

Speaker 7 And then, are you going to start doing these things? And then, what does it really mean? I would say, if you want to live a, this would be my, you know, who the fuck am I to give advice?

Speaker 7 Like, everybody's path is so unique, and I really, really believe that.

Speaker 7 But,

Speaker 7 like, if it were

Speaker 7 someone who felt like me and who's sensitive like me, then I would be like, if you want to live a life of being an entertainer or an artist, do it because

Speaker 7 that's your worldview and you need to express and you need to connect and that's how you feel alive. But don't do it for fame or

Speaker 7 validation in that regard. And my advice would be to

Speaker 7 make sure that you have other things in your life that make you feel good and connected and don't make everything about what you do.

Speaker 7 Make things about who you are, too. Because we are more than what we produce, and we're more than

Speaker 7 what

Speaker 7 people see on the highlight reels on Instagram and TikTok and whatever other social media platforms matter.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 that's what I would say. I don't know if that's what you were looking for.

Speaker 8 No, it is. It is.
Because I think

Speaker 8 I think more so, and I don't, this is obviously just my perception, but I think that what the process that you were describing with Broadway and falling in love with the process, I'm not saying it's not the same as acting or singing, but it's a little bit different.

Speaker 8 And so I can see that being, you know, falling in love with the process and doing it because you love it, but is yes. Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 7 Yes, actually, you just crystallized it for me. And maybe it's going to change how I answer that in the future.
So thank you for that.

Speaker 7 Fall in love with the process. I mean, sports people talk about this.
Sports people. I know nothing about sports.
But I'm into sports psychology because it's related to the performer.

Speaker 7 I mean, if you're in a performance industry, the psychology is similar. So, athletes talk about falling in love with the process.
You can't get attached to the result.

Speaker 7 So, you really need to be like, I'm proud of myself. I did these things.
And I'm like,

Speaker 7 and that's that needs to be enough because whether you're number one or you're not on the chart at all, that's been my experience. I've had the highest of highs

Speaker 7 before I had my period. So, and then I spent a lot of my life chasing that, like an addict, basically, and being like, This is how I need to derive my sense of self-worth.
And then being like,

Speaker 7 So, what if I never reach that? Am I just going to be unhappy for the rest of my life? That's no way to live. So, I do think that

Speaker 7 learning how to step back, get back to basics, and fall in love with the process also develops a muscle of like

Speaker 7 work ethic and

Speaker 8 self-trust and being proud of yourself and and having something to do and like being actively a part of the process as opposed to just being like i'm not really in control blah blah blah control the things you can it's hard it's so hard i hope i'm not making it sound like it's no absolutely not it's really hard no it's so hard it's a practice it's a devotion it's really interesting that you said something about you know you were at the top of the charts and then and then you spent a lot of time chasing that right i also had that experience with you know i was on teen mom right like we that was groundbreaking i feel like to this day i still struggle with my level of comfort when it comes to my relevancy or am i ever going to be as good enough as i was when i was on tv because i'm not on tv anymore does that make sense and so is that sort of what you mean like when you were at the top of the charts and sort of you know maybe if you left music for a little while you went to acting you were still sort of chasing that feeling of being number one it was just that

Speaker 7 with the two massive songs that I had as a teenager,

Speaker 7 you know, and other successful songs throughout my career, but with those ones, I think people were telling me, like,

Speaker 7 you should be the biggest pop star.

Speaker 7 And then there were things that were outside of my control, and I started to feel bad for myself, and then I started to feel like a victim, and people were like, You, you are a victim.

Speaker 7 And then I was like, Maybe I am, and blah, blah, blah. So I think it was like a lot of that, but then me being like,

Speaker 7 then me finding

Speaker 7 my

Speaker 7 personal relationship with God and feeling more

Speaker 7 spiritual, and then being like, what is life really about? And, like, is it about chasing these things and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 7 And then a lot of fear and then questioning and dark nights of the soul and all of that. But yeah, to answer your question, I think it's, I'm sure it's similar to that.

Speaker 7 But I just want to celebrate you for the things that you've built and the way that you pivoted you.

Speaker 8 No, you. This is about you.

Speaker 7 Us. Okay, fine.
You know,

Speaker 7 I get it. Both of us in our own regards have really defied the odds.
You know,

Speaker 7 like the fact that we're sitting here and are

Speaker 7 at this point in our lives and careers and continuing to build and grow. And I just think that's really amazing.
A lot of people would have buried

Speaker 7 their head in the sand. I would agree.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 Have you talked about some of the things in your book prior to writing the book?

Speaker 7 Yes, some of the things, but most of the things are

Speaker 7 really being unveiled for the first time in this book. And it's not like I was like,

Speaker 7 shut up, I've been waiting all this time. It was just, it just felt like it was going to be liberating for me to hopefully connect with people who felt similar to me, which is, I felt like a

Speaker 7 I felt a lot of shame and embarrassment and guilt for different things in my life. And I wanted to

Speaker 7 find,

Speaker 7 I wanted to find a way way to look at my life

Speaker 7 in a way where I was, it was a celebration of overcoming and

Speaker 7 of

Speaker 7 doing the best with the cards you're dealt.

Speaker 8 So that's why I asked, because you were saying, you know, that we should be celebrated and you truly have faced so many adversities, but you recognize that.

Speaker 8 I don't think so many people, I don't think so many people that I know or I've interacted with realize,

Speaker 8 you know, have that awareness that you really have overcome so many odds that are stacked against you.

Speaker 7 Well, I don't know. You know, people tell me that all the time.
People tell me they're like, wow, you're so resilient. And so I think I just like, I'm like, oh, maybe I am.

Speaker 7 So I think that because that's been a part of the narrative that was put on me, I'm like, oh, maybe I should start thinking about myself like that.

Speaker 7 Cause I feel like, you know, I've had periods where I feel like shit and I feel like nothing. And I feel like, what's the point? And, but it's, it's, it's my fans and it's people who

Speaker 7 say the nicest things to me on the street, or who'll write me letters, or who'll come to the stage door after a performance and tell me about how my music has affected them, or how my journey has affected them.

Speaker 7 So, it's not that I'm just necessarily here, like giving myself props all the time. Well, you should.
Well, I don't know. I'm inspired by the stories of other people.

Speaker 7 Like, again, I don't have any kids. I think you're a triumph for being a mother of seven.
I think that is the hardest job in the world. For one?

Speaker 7 For one kid, let alone seven. So I'm really like turnt up by thinking about how human beings are just like mind, they blow my mind all the time.
All the time. So, well, I love that.

Speaker 8 I think that you're incredible. And I think that I'm glad that you opened up because I think that people also resonate with pain, unfortunately.

Speaker 7 It's very universal. Because it's relatable.
No one is exempt from the struggle.

Speaker 8 And so I think that, you know,

Speaker 8 as hard as it was,

Speaker 8 you really doing a service to people who needed that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 8 They needed to read this book and they needed to see that you overcame all of these things because they might be going through exactly what you're going through or you went through.

Speaker 7 The craziest thing is

Speaker 7 my friend was at a cafe yesterday and he sent me a picture and he's like, look who's here. And it was my book.
Someone was reading my book at the cafe he was at. And he's like,

Speaker 7 I know this is really weird, but.

Speaker 7 I just came into town to work with JoJo, actually, and she's one of my good friends. And she would, she'd be so excited, like, can I tell?

Speaker 7 She's like, oh my god, I'm on page 85, and this was the book that I didn't even know I needed. And please tell her, like, you know, this, that, and the other.

Speaker 7 And I was like, that is the coolest thing. I cannot believe that I'm in someone's backpack and that they took out my book and are reading it while they're having their matcha latte.

Speaker 7 I'm like, this is this is so crazy.

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Speaker 8 Besides your drive that you've had as a child, right? You said that you started when you were six and that it was sort of innately in you, you think?

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 8 What has been your biggest dream in life? My biggest dream?

Speaker 7 My biggest dream,

Speaker 7 I've got to live out my biggest dreams. I just wanted to see the world.

Speaker 8 Where's your favorite place?

Speaker 7 This is going to be such a corny answer, but like I can find something I like about almost anywhere I am. Okay.
And I, that's one of my, I appreciate that about myself. Absolutely.

Speaker 7 That I can be in Louisville, Kentucky, and be like, isn't this quaint? Like, isn't this precious? Let's go to the whiskey distillery.

Speaker 7 And I can be, you know, I want to find something charming about each place that I'm in. I could be in Jakarta, Indonesia, and be like, oh my God, the food here is so amazing.

Speaker 7 And look at how everybody's covered. And that's fascinating.
And it's different. And, you know, oh, and the call to prayer, like, wow, what a cool sound that is.

Speaker 7 And how amazing, how reverent people are.

Speaker 7 And I can be in Tokyo and I can be like, oh, my God, the public transportation here, like, we're all packed in so crazy. And I'm bumping elbows with strangers.

Speaker 7 And I really love the differences and the similarities in when you get to travel.

Speaker 7 So that was a big dream of mine, and it still is. Like, I'm still going to get to go to places I haven't.

Speaker 7 There's so many places I haven't been to. I haven't been to Africa at all.
That's a whole continent for me to explore. I'm really looking forward to that.
There's so much of the world.

Speaker 7 At the end of last year, I did a tour of Australia and New Zealand, and that was wonderful. It was my first time in New Zealand, which the Maori name for that is Awateroa.

Speaker 7 And that was just such an amazing, amazing blessing to be there. And we were were met at the airport by Maori people, and they gave us a traditional dance and a welcome.
And I was in shambles.

Speaker 7 It's on my TikTok if you want to see.

Speaker 8 No, I absolutely will be looking this up. Weeping.

Speaker 7 I've always been so moved by the haka, which they perform like before sporting events or sometimes at weddings. I'm so moved by,

Speaker 7 oh, it was so, so beautiful. And then we, they taught us about touching noses.
It's such an intimate thing.

Speaker 7 It's completely, you know, people of all ages will just come together and touch noses and breathe in together. Like,

Speaker 7 I was like,

Speaker 7 so intimate and human. Yeah.

Speaker 7 So I just love that. I mean, I'm such a nerd for that stuff.
Such a slut for humanity. I'm just like, it's so beautiful, all the different expressions of it.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 8 Actually,

Speaker 8 the woman who I

Speaker 8 hire for all my branding is from New Zealand. So I want to ask her about it now.
And I absolutely love her.

Speaker 7 And what's also cool is that I don't know if you knew, but they also teach Maori language in the schools there. So

Speaker 7 whether you're of Maori descent or not, they really seem to make sure that that's at the forefront. And I just think that's so fire, and I wish we took a page out of that book

Speaker 8 in our country.

Speaker 8 Absolutely. You mentioned the sound that they used for call to prayer.
Do you talk about your faith? Are you willing to talk about your faith?

Speaker 7 Yeah, I'm willing to talk about my faith.

Speaker 8 How has your faith

Speaker 8 shifted your perception or

Speaker 8 just impacted your day-to-day life. Because you've mentioned

Speaker 8 your spirituality a few times.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I'm a faithful woman at this point in my life. I'm a woman of faith.

Speaker 8 Have you always been?

Speaker 7 No, I've been through, that's something I talk about here, too.

Speaker 7 I grew up Catholic, grew up in the choir loft watching my mom be a soloist, a soprano at our church in St. Mary's in Foxborough.
And I love

Speaker 7 the

Speaker 7 ancientness. I don't know if it's quite ancient, but like how old Catholicism is.
I love the ritual of it.

Speaker 7 I think about, I can hear like my childhood priest being like, with him and him and him in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, Almighty Father, forever and ever.

Speaker 7 And I can hear, you know, I can smell the incense and I can hear the bagpipes

Speaker 7 for a funeral procession and all that is meaningful to me. Yeah.

Speaker 7 And then I kind of fell out of Catholicism for a while and then I found non-denominational Christianity. First it was Pentecostal evangelism.

Speaker 7 I was dating someone in my band who was

Speaker 7 playing in a Pentecostal church. Then I found that.
It was a completely different style of music, more gospel, more Christian contemporary.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 then I was saved in that church. Then

Speaker 7 that pastor was disappointing. And then I had church hurt from that.
And I saw, you know, he was like, there was a scandal where he cheated on his wife.

Speaker 7 And then he's like stealing money from the church. And I'm like, no.
And then I'm like, I don't know about this stuff. So then I stepped away.

Speaker 7 And then I found non-denominational Christianity through in another relationship that I was in. Then when that relationship

Speaker 7 unraveled,

Speaker 7 he cheated on me with a girl from the church. Then I was like, oh, hell no.
All you Christians are full of shit. You know, and then I needed to.

Speaker 7 And then I was like, oh, it's, but it's not about the people.

Speaker 7 And we should be mad at the sin, not the sinner. Or, or

Speaker 7 what is the thing? Hate the sin, not the sinner, or something like that.

Speaker 7 Because we're all going to sin. I have found more of a spiritual, like I'm, I love the framework of Christianity.

Speaker 7 I've explored other frameworks as well.

Speaker 7 Yoga has been a part of my life for a long time. And people think that that might be, you know, like

Speaker 7 a religion in itself, but I just think of it as a practice and a devotion.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 in LA, I started going to this place called the Center for Self-Realization, which sounds like a cult. I don't think it is, but founded by Paramahansa Yogananda, who wrote autobiography of a yogi.

Speaker 7 And he brought yoga to the West in like the 1920s. And so I was really interested in,

Speaker 7 what he espoused was there's all these connections between the major world religions. And he was interested in talking about the things that unite as opposed to the things that separate us.
Sure.

Speaker 7 So, particularly, like the is it monotheistic,

Speaker 7 the religions that have one God, but even Hinduism, you know, where there's multiple gods, it's still

Speaker 7 there, there's a lot of like similarities somewhat. So, that's the thing that I was probably,

Speaker 7 I'm a curious person, sure, and

Speaker 7 I think that what I know for sure is that God is real in my life and that God has saved me many times.

Speaker 7 And I enjoy being someone that thinks that there's some divine presence in my life that's orchestrating my steps and that I need to work in conjunction with.

Speaker 7 I can't just be like, oh, well, I don't need to do anything because God's going to.

Speaker 8 God's got me.

Speaker 7 And God does got me. Of course, but I'm here too.
Right. So, I don't know.
That's a long-winded way of kind of talking about my.

Speaker 7 And then, you know, there's been my experiences with meditation and psychedelics, and that'll break you open too, you know, and that'll make you question things.

Speaker 7 And I realized through dabbling in that a little bit that there's no end to that. So sometimes you got to just choose what it, what framework do you want to, do you want to believe in? Because

Speaker 7 if you get going on this journey,

Speaker 7 the questions never stop. Then you start, then you're like blasted off to the universe.
And then you're like, well, what's it's just too much.

Speaker 8 You're talking about psychedelics. I've never experienced anything with psychedelics.
I've never done any, but I recently had a conversation about micro-dosing.

Speaker 8 And I mean, I've heard great things.

Speaker 7 Yeah, are you thinking about it?

Speaker 8 I'm not against it. I'll say that.

Speaker 8 I've also heard

Speaker 8 last week we were on a work trip, a podcasting work trip, and we were having a conversation about ketamine, which I think is in the realm of psychedelics where it's like controlled.

Speaker 8 I don't know much about it.

Speaker 7 I know people party on it, which I'm sick out.

Speaker 8 And I'm not into that. I'm not into that.

Speaker 7 I don't think people should do shrooms as a party thing.

Speaker 7 I don't think people should mix alcohol and

Speaker 7 any of these substances. I would agree.
I think they're meant to be respected and revered. I think mushrooms have a lot to teach us.

Speaker 7 And I think micro-dosing can be really life-saving for people.

Speaker 7 And, you know, especially if you do it in a guided way, be responsible with it, have somebody who really knows what they're doing and talking about, and probably not just a homie, but like, you know, if you could have somebody put you on a protocol,

Speaker 7 be, it can be really affirming and

Speaker 7 help to.

Speaker 7 So the concept of neuroplasticity is, I think, the ability for our brains to form new pathways. And like, if you're in a depressive path,

Speaker 7 that

Speaker 7 something like

Speaker 7 psilocybin, for example, mushrooms, can

Speaker 7 act as like fresh snow on the ski slopes of your brain and allow you to go down a different path, to see things from a different angle.

Speaker 7 And it's not for everybody. It would, you know, it's not a one-size-fits-all approach, but it has, I think,

Speaker 7 helped me in seeing

Speaker 7 things as half full. And

Speaker 7 it's not something that you need to do all the time. And

Speaker 7 yeah, I sound like a massive mushroom head.

Speaker 8 No, no, no. I had this conversation, I think, episode two of my other podcast is she was talking about it.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 So that's you're literally saying almost verbatim or experience, which is really interesting.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I like marijuana doesn't agree with me. Right.

Speaker 7 So I'm not somebody that can like do that. For some people, it really relaxes them and that's great.
To each their own. Yeah, but

Speaker 7 I think micro-dosing can be positive for some people for sure.

Speaker 8 How did we get on that topic?

Speaker 7 I don't remember. I was like spirituality, religion, psychedelics.

Speaker 8 Switching gears a little bit, I work with an all-female, all-woman team.

Speaker 8 What women in your life have been the biggest inspiration to you? Whether it be before, you know, maybe in

Speaker 8 early, you know, days in your career and now?

Speaker 7 The first woman that comes to mind is my aunt Connie.

Speaker 7 She is like,

Speaker 7 I'm so fortunate to have a tribe of people that have raised me. My mom is an amazing woman, and she makes me so proud with

Speaker 7 teaching me, showing me through her actions that people can change and you can pivot and you can be your best self at any age. And that's so inspiring.

Speaker 7 And my Aunt Connie is definitely like another mother figure in my life. And I would say her and my uncle Dale were parental figures to me and the most stable foundation that I had throughout my life.

Speaker 7 I would run to them, literally run to them from

Speaker 7 where I was living in Foxborough down to their house. I'd ride my bike and I'd be like, you know, can I just be here? And, you know, can you adopt me?

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 she

Speaker 7 has just, I don't know how she does everything that she does, from

Speaker 7 raising two boys and being an amazing real estate agent and cooking like Martha Stewart and, you know, putting up all the decorations and always just making me feel the most at home.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 and just being so kind to everybody. And

Speaker 7 so I think that she's definitely an inspiration to me. And I think of different female executives that I've encountered in my life and

Speaker 7 how

Speaker 7 they do things.

Speaker 7 They're probably more effective sometimes than

Speaker 7 some of the male executives that I've done. I would agree.
And they also do it in their own unique way,

Speaker 7 the way they wield their femininity and use that in such a dope way. And then also, I mean, we all possess the masculine and feminine.
And I'm just, it's been so cool to see that dance.

Speaker 8 Does your aunt Connie know how that, know that you feel that way about her?

Speaker 7 She does. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Yeah, we're really close. And she came to see Moulin Rouge 11 times over the

Speaker 7 years.

Speaker 8 Her and your mom.

Speaker 7 They are my number one fans.

Speaker 7 Yeah, between last year and this year when I did my limited engagements at Moulin Rouge, I was like,

Speaker 7 you're coming again? Are you sure you want to see this? It's the same show. She's like, it's different.
I noticed something different every time. I'm like, oh my God, you really love me.

Speaker 7 This is so, so nice. I love that.
That's my boo.

Speaker 8 If you could do another, not Mulan Rouge, anything else in Broadway, what would it be? What role would you audition for?

Speaker 7 I have some things in the.

Speaker 8 Oh, okay. You're not allowed to say? Okay, but so maybe outside of that, is there anything else that you would have loved to I'm developing some things right now?

Speaker 7 Okay, so that's exactly really exciting.

Speaker 7 And I would love to originate a role and to also, more than anything, more than just like being the star, because I actually, sometimes it feels really nice to be behind the scenes.

Speaker 7 And I think the older I get, the more I would really like to actually just help support people to use my resources and my experience to

Speaker 7 see something come to fruition where I don't need to be the face of it. I don't need to be, you know, the one who's slanging myself around

Speaker 7 every night.

Speaker 7 But yeah, so

Speaker 7 that's what I'm interested in as far as theater.

Speaker 7 I just, the community is the thing that is so exciting to me, that bringing people together and being around and supporting and being inspired and sharing resources and all that stuff.

Speaker 7 And I have my own label,

Speaker 7 Clover Records, as well. And

Speaker 7 I want to

Speaker 7 eventually, I think, because I care so much and because I've had such a

Speaker 7 multifaceted experience as an artist, I've been so that's why I haven't signed anyone because I'm like, I want to make sure that I have the time and the energy and that I could really support an artist.

Speaker 7 But I think by the time I'm 40, I'll sign an artist. So I got like a good chunk of time.

Speaker 7 But I really want to,

Speaker 7 yeah,

Speaker 7 use my experiences for good and to help someone else.

Speaker 8 Are you familiar with the author Jodi Pico? Yeah.

Speaker 8 She wrote a book called By Any Other Name, and it's about a woman, two women, in Broadway and playwrights and things like that. That might be of interest to you, maybe.
For that record.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it's a fantastic, it's hefty. It's about 600-ish pages, so it's sort of intimidating, but it's one of my all-time favorite reads, and it's fantastic.

Speaker 8 But it sounds like it would be right up your alley.

Speaker 7 Yeah, by any other name, yes.

Speaker 8 And she's also, Jodi Pico herself is getting involved with theater in Broadway.

Speaker 7 So yeah, are they turning one of her books into a show?

Speaker 8 I'm not sure. I think that was the gist of from my understanding.
I think that's what it was. By Any Other Name is about, you know, playwrights in the 1500s, but also like 2023.

Speaker 7 1500s? Yeah.

Speaker 8 Oh, wow.

Speaker 8 And it's also about like Shakespeare and, you know, things like that. But then it's

Speaker 8 the other timeline is 2023. And the main character is trying to get her show on Broadway and things like that.
So it would just be really cool if you, if that interests you for you to check that out.

Speaker 8 Yeah, you should definitely check that out. And maybe even talk to Jodi Pico because that's her goal

Speaker 8 is to be more involved with Broadway and theater.

Speaker 7 Oh my God. Well, me too, girl.
So yeah, Jodi, what's up? Let's chat.

Speaker 8 A few rapid fire before we wrap up this episode. This one's controversial.
Okay. In sync or Backstreet Boys?

Speaker 7 In sync. Really? I mean, don't you want me to just say whatever's on my mind?

Speaker 8 Favorite TV show in the 2000s?

Speaker 8 Was this circa Aquamarine?

Speaker 8 Aquamarine was 2000s, right? Yeah.

Speaker 7 It was like 2000s.

Speaker 8 That's a movie. Okay, so TV show.

Speaker 8 american idol real okay i was not expecting that i was thinking disney realm i don't know um okay favorite snack or candy like now yeah

Speaker 8 popcorn just any kind of popcorn not white cheddar

Speaker 7 my preference would be like the caramel and the cheddar together you know like at the chicago airport garretts

Speaker 7 I have no idea.

Speaker 7 Bring me home. Is that a brand?

Speaker 7 It's a brand.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 8 You eat them together? Yeah. Okay, mix it.
All right.

Speaker 8 I'll note that for next month, Chicago, and I'll tag you.

Speaker 7 So good. Or kettle corn.
Kettle corn. Okay.

Speaker 8 I can get behind popcorn. It feels like it's me and sweet.
It's pretty universal, popcorn. One adjective you would use to describe yourself.

Speaker 7 Happy. I love that.

Speaker 8 Favorite book? Do you have a favorite book?

Speaker 8 Besides your own. Besides your own.
Besides my own.

Speaker 7 I have a favorite book of all time.

Speaker 7 The book that I return to the most is a spiritual book it's called the untethered soul okay and i've listened to it and read it at different points in my life and it's just something that i always return to um another book

Speaker 7 that i really loved uh that's it's it's

Speaker 7 rick james wrote it in conjunction with dave riggs is that his last name who is a

Speaker 7 autobiographer and it's called Glow and it's just it's a really really good book.

Speaker 8 Is it also spiritual?

Speaker 7 No. No, okay.
I'll have to check that one out.

Speaker 8 I love, I'm a newbie bookworm.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I've read 76 books this year.

Speaker 7 How do you have time? You have seven kids. But I heard.
You leave the same 24 hours?

Speaker 8 But you're

Speaker 8 singing, acting on Broadway, have a record label, wrote a book on, but you're doing, no, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it.
What is your guilty pleasure? Do you have one?

Speaker 7 I don't feel guilty about my pleasure. No, I don't know.

Speaker 7 What is my guilty pleasure?

Speaker 7 I would say like oh what's that called love island is that a show yes you watch it okay yeah i i watched there's like 40 episodes per season it's like there's so many but i watched i tapped into this season and i was like why do i care so much about these kids but i'm like it's it's cute but I mean, that's sort of a guilty pleasure, I guess, you know?

Speaker 8 Yeah. Yeah.
Reality TV, any sort of like love show, I feel like is guilty pleasure.

Speaker 7 Yes. Sex in the city.

Speaker 8 Do you watch Grey's Anatomy? Have you watched Grey's Anatomy? No, we never got into it.

Speaker 7 Okay. But Sex in the City, like, how many times have I watched these episodes? But it's a comfort thing to me.
100%.

Speaker 7 I will go back and obviously, and now I'm like, you know, in my 30s living in New York, and I'm like wearing high heels, strutting down the street.

Speaker 8 You're like, I am Sex in the City. I'm like, I am Sex in the City.
Where can people find your book? It's in Barnes ⁇ Noble, Amazon, where else? Anywhere.

Speaker 7 Anywhere you find books. You can, you know, listen to the audiobook on Spotify, on Apple, on Audible.
And it is, yeah, check it out.

Speaker 7 I think the audiobook is a if you're on the subway or you're driving or whatever, it's it's a good option, but it's also really nice. Um,

Speaker 7 it's really nice to see people having this, and yes, it's just the wildest thing.

Speaker 8 I'm gonna do, I run an online book club, so I'm gonna do a giveaway with these three. Oh, I'm gonna, yeah, no, I'm really excited.

Speaker 8 I haven't told anyone that you're coming on the podcast because I never know if someone's gonna cancel last minute, but I'm so excited. And where can people find you on socials?

Speaker 7 It's just I am JoJo. Okay, cool.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I really appreciate you coming on Barely Famous podcasts. Thank you.

Speaker 9 I know, I'm putting them back. Hey, Dave, here's a tip.
Put scratchers on your list.

Speaker 15 Oh, scratchers, good idea.

Speaker 9 It's an easy shopping trip. We're glad we could assist.

Speaker 4 Thanks, random singing people.

Speaker 9 So be like Dave this holiday and give the gift of play. Scratchers from the California lottery.
A little play can make your day.

Speaker 15 Please play responsibly. Must be 18 years or older to purchase player claim.