ENCORE Bringing The Truth To Light with Jordy Cray

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Speaker 5 Oh, hi, Jordy. It's nice to meet you.

Speaker 6 Thanks for having me here. Very excited.
I was telling Kale, I was like, this must be how Kelly Clarkson felt when she won American Idol.

Speaker 4 Oh, damn.

Speaker 4 You're picking your way out there. Dang.
Okay. You're

Speaker 4 living large now. I know.

Speaker 6 I appreciate it. So I'm excited to be here.

Speaker 5 Well, I know, like, I know that you and Ty met just kind of a little bit.

Speaker 4 You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 But I've never even seen you or anything until all this stuff happened. But so I was like, oh, that'll be nice just to talk, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you don't know.

Speaker 4 I don't even think you watched the live that we did.

Speaker 5 No, I did not.

Speaker 6 No, you were doing a live with somebody else probably that day, I think.

Speaker 4 Probably with Ray. Yeah.
Yeah, it happened really fast. I just messaged you and was like, hey, I want a live.
And you're like, yeah, give me 15 minutes. I know.

Speaker 4 I was like, oh my God, I'm not prepared. I'm not prepared.
But it was good. Yeah, it was funny.
It was good. I mean, I felt like we had a good conversation.
It was pretty civil, you know.

Speaker 4 I mean, I felt like, you know, got a little more information. You got some more context.

Speaker 4 Okay, I wanted to ask you, though, what did you, after we had our conversation, did anybody reach out to you as far as like adopted people on TikTok?

Speaker 4 Did anybody like because I know TikTok's like your big that's like where your all your followers are, right? How many, how many do you have? Like, where are you at now?

Speaker 6 Oh my god, almost 600,000.

Speaker 4 Dang, okay, half a mil.

Speaker 5 How did you, well, how did you even get started on TikTok? Like, what made you think?

Speaker 6 So, I discovered that Hilary Duff and her sister were beefing.

Speaker 4 Oh, okay.

Speaker 6 Um, just social media sleuth that I am, and um, it kind of blew up my first video ever, and then it it just kind of went on from there. Oh, okay.

Speaker 6 But I consider myself a teen mom historian, so I wanted to show, you know, different sides of my personality and things that I enjoy.

Speaker 6 So when I started talking about teen mom, that kind of blew up too, because I, you know, have a lot of opinions.

Speaker 4 That's why you're here. Yeah, exactly.
Everybody does. Everybody does.
No, yeah, especially on TikTok. I mean, people got a lot of opinions on teen mom.

Speaker 4 I feel like because TikTok wasn't around when Teen Mom first started. No.
No.

Speaker 6 So MySpace was still around. So we're around the same time.

Speaker 4 Here, it's like now people are going back, I feel like, and watching from the beginning. And now we have a whole new, like,

Speaker 4 almost new generation of listener watchers that are like, didn't know anything, and now they're all getting

Speaker 4 opinions. So, I mean, y'all have to say.

Speaker 4 But, yeah, I thought it was interesting, though, because I was like, wow, like your perception of it is that we,

Speaker 4 you know, like talking about Carly or our adoption story was, you were like, not a good idea. You don't think it's a good idea to do it?

Speaker 5 No, I I want to hear your

Speaker 4 opinion.

Speaker 6 No, no, it's fine.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 I was just having a hard time wrapping my mind around. I know that there's contention between Brandon and Teresa, and there has been for quite some time.

Speaker 6 But venting on social media, I felt like hurt your guys's cause because we know some of the Teen Mom fans are crazy. I mean, I'm crazy, but I'm not that crazy.

Speaker 6 But it gets them all riled up, and then they start, you know, now we know what everybody's involved now. So I feel like it just causes a bigger issue and would piss off Brandon and Teresa even more.

Speaker 5 And so when you say, like, you think that it creates a bigger issue,

Speaker 5 in what sense do you mean?

Speaker 6 Because everybody's involved. Everybody has like opinions now.
Everybody, you know, more backlash for you guys, more backlash for Brandon and Teresa.

Speaker 6 And it's, I don't know, I feel like, although it's a private matter, you guys guys live your life in public. So I don't know if anything's really private.

Speaker 6 So that's what's kind of like difficult about it. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And I know something that you probably brought up, and we can talk about this too, because I'm a child of addicts too, and I know that you are too.

Speaker 6 And I had said something that I think that you too have inherited certain traits from your parents that were like, if you don't get your way, you can use that to like manipulate situations or like,

Speaker 6 you know, try to like like get back at people, you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 In like in like a vindictive way, or yeah, so so your opinion is that

Speaker 4 you are saying that we like

Speaker 5 okay, well, no, but yeah, well, what you said was like we manipulate to get sympathy.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, that's what you said. And so, I want you to elaborate on why you believe that is

Speaker 6 because I never really understood what the point of it was except to get sympathy and to try and get people to get on your side of things.

Speaker 4 Okay, so you feel like we're recruiting people to like get on our side.

Speaker 5 Like from an outside perspective, looking into our story,

Speaker 5 I can see where you would think that, and I understand that, you know, that thought on that.

Speaker 5 But I think our main goal

Speaker 5 for putting stuff out publicly

Speaker 5 was because

Speaker 5 if Carly has a chance of being able to see that we never stop trying,

Speaker 5 she deserves to know that, in my opinion.

Speaker 5 Also,

Speaker 5 it is bringing awareness to everybody that is involved in adoption.

Speaker 5 It's bringing awareness to adoptive parents that, you know, stuff like this happens, birth parents, and also it's giving a voice for adopted kids.

Speaker 4 You know, the adoptees. Which is the main thing.

Speaker 5 The adoptees need to be. But

Speaker 5 I can see where you would think that.

Speaker 4 I have a question. Do you believe, do you, so do you believe that other people on the cast manipulate to get sympathy or to recruit people to get on their sides? Yeah.
Okay. Okay.

Speaker 4 Because I feel like, because I feel like, so where do we cross the line with sharing our story on a reality TV show as people, or then it turns into manipulation for sympathy?

Speaker 4 You asked, where did you cross the line? Where's the line?

Speaker 4 Where does the line of like, oh, I'm just, you know, a reality TV contest person, you know, whatever that is sharing my story, have been doing it for 15 years.

Speaker 4 Where does the line cross from just sharing our story, being vulnerable, honest, to manipulation to get sympathy or recruit people to be on our side?

Speaker 6 I mean, that's a good question.

Speaker 6 I just, when I talked to you on Instagram, you said that you didn't even care if Brandon and Teresa got upset about this kind of thing.

Speaker 6 And what I still struggle with is that Carly's going to see all of this anyway. Like when she's 18 and watches the show, hopefully, you know, in college, wherever she goes.

Speaker 6 So even though you're like venting and stuff on social media, which by the way, you guys have every right to do.

Speaker 4 Well, because you do the same thing. Right, exactly.
Yeah,

Speaker 6 I mean, yeah. So she's going to see it anyway.
So do you think that you putting it on social media is going to like annoy her or drive her away even more?

Speaker 5 You know, I mean,

Speaker 5 we don't know,

Speaker 5 obviously, because, you know, they have completely cut us off, blocked me. You know, it's now she's telling us that we're not allowed to even send gifts to the house anymore.

Speaker 6 When'd they say that?

Speaker 5 This was a few months ago.

Speaker 4 A few months ago. Yeah, while everything is.

Speaker 6 Before the block?

Speaker 4 No, after the block. No, this was after the block.

Speaker 6 Oh, wait, wait, spell that. What happened?

Speaker 5 Yes. So I want to give you a little bit of backstory.

Speaker 4 Yes, please do. Okay.

Speaker 5 So, what happened was,

Speaker 5 so there's Carly, but they also have another adopted child.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 5 And so me and that birth mom, she lives in Michigan. She has

Speaker 5 kids she's raising and stuff. Me and her talk.

Speaker 5 And we're pretty close because we share that bond.

Speaker 5 It all started with his,

Speaker 5 it's hard, it gets confusing, but Carly's

Speaker 5 her brother's birth mom reached out to me and said, Hey, do you think we're getting a visit this year? The kids are getting older. You know,

Speaker 5 has Teresa said anything to you? And I said, No, but I can start a group text and we can ask her, you know.

Speaker 5 So that's what we did. And so I we sent a text in this group chat and I just said, Hey, you know,

Speaker 5 we would love to try to get together this summer. We'd be more than willing to come to North Carolina and even meet up just for dinner one day.

Speaker 5 And after I said that to her,

Speaker 5 she ghosts me for weeks, which this is typical of Teresa. I can message Carly and say, I can message Teresa and say, hey, how is Carly in school? Is she liking it? Not hear anything for weeks.

Speaker 4 It's not really a shocker. It's not nothing new.

Speaker 5 That always happens.

Speaker 5 And then, so days go by, a week goes by, and then the birth mom messages me. Hey, has she said anything? No.

Speaker 5 So I reach out in hey just checking in on the on this wondering if you and Brandon had the time to talk about it and she was just like you know it's just I know it's disappointing but no we're not planning to have a visit this year and I said I said yeah I said it's disappointing just because of all the kids you know like all the kids like my kids are getting older they know Carly they know that's her sister

Speaker 5 The other birth mom's kids, same thing. They know that their brother is out there and they ask questions.
I said, so it sucks that, you know, we can't even meet up just for a dinner, you know?

Speaker 5 And then Teresa was like, Yeah, I understand, you know, whatever, but

Speaker 5 just know that we love and we care about you guys so much. Um,

Speaker 4 and she also said no to the dinner because we were like, Oh, we'll come to you, we'll make it really easy.

Speaker 4 I know you're busy with the kids, and if that's a problem, then we'll just come to you and make it meet up at a restaurant for an hour dinner, you know, make it simple, not like a long, weekend-long visit like we used to do.

Speaker 4 Typically, how they are, yeah.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 and then, so, and she got upset with me because I said, you know, it doesn't feel like love. You know, like people that I truly love and I care about that are involved in my life.

Speaker 5 I make time for those people. I, even if it's just an hour, like I want to spend time with the people that I love and I care about.

Speaker 5 So she got upset with me that I said that. And then you fast forward a few weeks and it was like Carly's birthday.
So of course I'm like, hey, I texted Teresa, like, hey, I sent Carly gifts.

Speaker 5 Please let me know if she gets them.

Speaker 5 And she answered me on that day, but even a few days after her birthday, I checked in again and it was like, she never responds. You know, weeks go by, then I check in again, no response.

Speaker 5 And I'm like, okay, you know, what's going on?

Speaker 4 Does she like our gifts? Right, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 then she just came back with like, you know, the way that you speak about us

Speaker 5 isn't nice and we're not going to be responding for a while. Which kind of blew mind in a little bit because I was like, I've never, I mean, you can watch everything that I've shown on this journey.

Speaker 5 And I have never called them out of their names. I have never said that they were shitty-ass parents,

Speaker 5 weren't doing a good job raising my child, because I believe all those things. I believe that they do.
She's an amazing, well-rounded kid because of them, you know?

Speaker 5 And so when she said that, my response to her was basically like, I get that. I get that if your feelings are hurt.
And my feelings are hurt too.

Speaker 5 And when you want to have a conversation about that, I'm here for it. And we should have that conversation.

Speaker 5 And I told her, I said, but you know, until then, I'm going to continue to send gifts to Carly like I always have, and I'm going to continue to send updates

Speaker 5 like I always have.

Speaker 5 And so that's why when people online said, oh my God, Caitlin's just blowing her up all the time. It was like, no, all those messages were from.

Speaker 5 after I got that text from her and me telling Teresa, like, okay, I get it, but I'm going to send updates. And they were like, once directed to Carly, not only.

Speaker 4 Yeah, once like every other week.

Speaker 5 And one of the main reasons why I decided to do that also was because

Speaker 5 I had a lot of adoptees and birth parents reaching out to me and saying, don't ever stop. One day she is going to see all of those things that you tried to give her and show her and all of the things.

Speaker 5 And so I continued to do that. Then I found out she blocked me.

Speaker 5 And I found that out through our adoption counselor, Dawn.

Speaker 5 And I was still sending gifts every once in a while, you know, or whatever for a birthday. I sent her crumble cookies because teens love crumble cookies.
I don't know what it is.

Speaker 4 I hate them.

Speaker 6 Do you? Yeah, I had them for the first time a couple months ago trash.

Speaker 6 It's disgusting. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Chocolate chip. What? You want the chocolate chip?

Speaker 6 It was too heavy. It was like heavy.
I could have like knocked my husband out with it. Like, it was just ridiculous.
Wait, what is this cookie?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it's cookie. Yeah, sorry.
No, no, no, you're fine. You're totally fine.
Fuck crumble.

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Speaker 5 And so then, yeah, so I and so I obviously I'm blocked from her phone number still.

Speaker 5 And so I sent Carly, I sent her some flowers and it had like a note on it. And so I asked Dawn, Can you reach out to Teresa? I just want to make sure that they got there.

Speaker 5 And then she came back to Teresa and said, you know, you can tell Kate and Tyler, but they're no longer allowed to send gifts to our house. It is disrespectful.
And

Speaker 5 that really took me and Ty back because we never thought, I mean, gifts are gifts.

Speaker 6 They're not even gifts.

Speaker 4 Like, I feel, because I feel like, honestly, I would accept a gift from anyone for my kid.

Speaker 4 How am I going to stop and withhold an expression of love to the child when it's been happening for 15 years, especially.

Speaker 4 But even just like anyone could give my kid a gift, and I'm like, awesome, that's great. Here's you know, so

Speaker 4 we never, yeah, it's a gift.

Speaker 4 We never thought, like, okay, we get you're upset and you don't want to talk about anything, and that's fine, but not to send gifts and also not to send gifts when it's been a thing for 15 years, it's all Carly's ever known.

Speaker 4 So, how do you explain to the child now?

Speaker 6 All of a sudden, the gifts stop.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and I, and I, since I can't talk to Carly and tell her that, what, how are you doing that? And what

Speaker 4 you know, we we have no say-so, and how she gets that information about not getting gifts.

Speaker 6 Like, she watches the show.

Speaker 5 I mean,

Speaker 5 they keep her from it.

Speaker 6 Well, when she's 18, I mean, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 I thought you meant right now. I'm sorry.

Speaker 5 So, I mean,

Speaker 5 so it was just the whole gift thing. And the thing that, yeah, like how Ty said about, I don't understand why you would stop gifts, especially after 15 years.

Speaker 5 One of my things, also, too, is like I sat there as a child, a literal child,

Speaker 5 and that was my main thing that I said to her and Brandon:

Speaker 5 I don't, you know, above everything else,

Speaker 5 I just want to be able to send her birthday gifts and send her Christmas gifts and Easter.

Speaker 5 I remember telling them, I will send everything for any holiday just because I want her to know that she is loved by us and that we haven't forgotten about her.

Speaker 4 And they agreed, they were totally on board.

Speaker 5 Yeah, so I think there's a lot of underneath going on. And I know a lot of people say that we are

Speaker 5 exploiting Carly or posting stuff when we were asked not to. And

Speaker 5 part of this podcast is to also get my part out of that's not all factual. There's a lot of things.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, because the fact of the matter is, we even asked before being blocked, like, we just want to know if what we're doing is harming Carly or not.

Speaker 4 Is it her? Is it she saying, hey, I don't want to see pictures of my sisters? It's hurting me, or I don't want to get gifts. And Teresa responded,

Speaker 4 told Dawn, we have an answer to that question, but you're forbidden to tell Tyler and Caitlin what that answer is. And so, my thing is, is that listen, you if it was Carly and you're the parent,

Speaker 4 you should advocate for your child and tell us, hey, you're hurting my kid, please stop. Right.
So, the fact that you're not willing to do that means who are you prioritizing here?

Speaker 4 Why are you not advocating for this child and saying, hey, because I'd be if one of our kids, if someone's like, hurt, I'd be like, hey,

Speaker 4 I'd be like you're hurting my kid, stop doing it. Hey,

Speaker 4 I haven't heard that. Yeah, I have an answer for you, but you're not going to get it.
It's the power dynamic is weird and doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 4 And I don't think that you withholding that information from us, which would help and benefit everything moving forward. All you got to do is communicate and say, hey, this is what's going on.

Speaker 4 It would eliminate all this. So I'm confused on why that's not happening.
And I just feel like...

Speaker 4 You have the opportunity to advocate for that child. So why are you not doing that? I feel like, you know.

Speaker 5 Oh, and we want you to do that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like we want you to advocate for her, and also, you know, I feel like we you agreed on this open adoption, you agreed on all these things, and so you agreed on it being filmed, you agreed to show up on reunions.

Speaker 6 I just re-watched You're 16 and Pregnant the other day, like in preparation of this. And I remember, God,

Speaker 6 right after you gave birth, she gave you like the bracelets. Yeah, yeah, do you, and she's like, I'll never take it off.
And so, like,

Speaker 6 what did she do with that? Like, where's all that? You know, I don't know.

Speaker 4 I don't know. I still have mine.

Speaker 5 It's, it mostly sits in my jewelry box because I have lost it a few times being a kid, you know? So that, so that stays. But yeah, things like that.

Speaker 5 You know, when it's, when it's beneficial for them to exploit Carly

Speaker 5 and to

Speaker 5 post.

Speaker 4 What do you mean by that? I mean, that means like they allow the, we asked, can we post pictures? And they said, only the back of her head. Right.
If you can't see her face, we're fine with it. Right.

Speaker 4 So that's what we did. And I think people get really confused about, you keep, they keep saying, oh, well, you keep,

Speaker 4 you know, breaking the boundaries with Branch Reese. You keep disrespecting what their wishes are.
And it's like, well, it happened one time where, um, when we were, what, 17, 18 years old?

Speaker 4 In the way beginning. Yeah, that you know, I posted a picture or a video or something.
I can't remember what it was. And they, and we, then we had a conversation.
It was filmed.

Speaker 4 You were pregnant with Nova. We hashed it all out.

Speaker 5 And we agreed from that moment forward, like, we won't post any more pictures. Any unapproved.
Yeah, any unapproved photos.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 5 And then, yeah, that's when you fast forward a few years because Noble was born, and that was the other visit where they got to meet for the first time.

Speaker 5 And Teresa said, I sent pictures, like, can I post this one and this one? And she's like, as long as you don't see her face, I'm fine with it.

Speaker 5 Just like how they've done for MTV when they cover some of our visits, like just the back of her head.

Speaker 4 Just the back of her head.

Speaker 5 Or sometimes they've used like clips of her voice, but they kind of,

Speaker 5 I don't know, like auto-tune it so you can't really tell.

Speaker 4 You can't really tell.

Speaker 5 Yeah, like tell what her voice sounds like and stuff.

Speaker 5 So, what I mean, as far as like they have kind of, they've kind of exploited their situation too,

Speaker 5 is

Speaker 5 those things. Like, people want to put all the blame on us.
Like, you're on a reality TV show, and they didn't sign up for this.

Speaker 6 It's like, well, they did sign up for that. I will defend you guys with that.
I will defend that.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 they also agreed on the whole thing about, yeah, MTV, you can show the back of her head,

Speaker 4 and we're going to get compensated for it.

Speaker 4 Only if you compensate for it.

Speaker 5 And if you don't compensate us, then you're not allowed to use these pictures on TV and so it's so I

Speaker 4 financially benefited from this as well oh yeah hugely which is why I feel that it's hypocritical and I don't understand your moral if it's a really moral standpoint that you're taking it I would totally get it yeah but it's not because you literally went on the magazine when she was five and put her face out there and all over the cover and that was fine and that was okay and I really wish we had that article because in that article that magazine that says we are so blessed with the open adoption we love that we can get have contact with them.

Speaker 4 We love it for our kids, and we're going to continue to do all that. How beneficial it is for the adoptee, you know, and so yeah, and things like that.

Speaker 4 And then, you know, fast forward when we would post only approved picks, like she said,

Speaker 4 and then she got upset because we posted

Speaker 4 this last visit we had.

Speaker 6 I don't know if you see any of the last one, it was two years ago, it was like two years ago. That's the last time you saw her, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 And I posted a picture on my Instagram, it was like all of us walking inside the back of her.

Speaker 6 Yep, I did see that.

Speaker 5 And then Tyler posted one where it was him, Carla, and Nova, and it was the back of them. And then they called us and had a conversation.

Speaker 5 And the only reason why they were upset, because we had the conversation, I said, you've always told me in the back of her head, it's fine.

Speaker 5 And she goes, well, I guess I'm just, well, it was actually Brandon. He said, well, I guess we're just kind of upset about it because now MTV can't pay us.

Speaker 4 Because it's not an exclusive picture. Now it's not an exclusive picture.

Speaker 6 Because we didn't learn that's T right there.

Speaker 5 And see, so I'm saying a lot of people don't know that there's so much backstory to our story.

Speaker 6 Well, I appreciate you telling me that because that that changes a few things for me.

Speaker 5 Well, I would like to know your opinion, though.

Speaker 6 I think that's bullshit that they, you know, they can be so greedy in that sense and then turn around and act like they're this, you know, morally, you know, righteous Christian, you know, of people of God, which, I mean, I'm sure they are, but at the same time, let's cut the bullshit.

Speaker 4 Well, and my thing is, is that like, and we have stayed silent on all those little details up until now because now we literally have nothing to lose.

Speaker 5 But then it does make, but then it does have people looking at us like, oh my gosh, you're breaking boundaries.

Speaker 5 You're disrespecting which i understand because nobody goes through that yeah scope of things but i'm telling you not so black and white no this whole journey if and it's not like they get the money and they put it in account for carly no they're using it to pay for their flights pay for their hotel all that stuff which i get but when we had that conversation with them on the phone i said i wish you would have told me i said i would have helped you i would have fought for you

Speaker 5 and say you ain't getting my picture either that i posted on instagram unless you help them with their travel right like i get that but the way that they would just always like if it benefited them,

Speaker 5 they were going to do it.

Speaker 4 And if it made the adoption look really good. They were going to do it.

Speaker 4 But if

Speaker 4 you expressed your feelings or anything that was negative about it, it was like, you can't do that. No, now it's bad.
Now we're mad. Yeah.
It's just a weird, it's a weird power dynamic.

Speaker 4 And it feels like for so long we had to be silent because, like you said, I don't want to ruffle feathers. I'm not in control.

Speaker 4 So we have to kind of be like, okay, like, all right, because I don't want you to take her away.

Speaker 4 So we didn't speak on a lot of things that happened behind closed doors because I want to, that's priority number one: to be able to see her and have access to her.

Speaker 6 So, now that that access is taken away, it's like, well, then I mean, you guys don't have anything left to lose at this point.

Speaker 5 I don't, yeah, we don't have anything to lose. And also, just the fact of the matter that I truly, in my heart of heart, do not believe that it's Carly that wants this.
I have

Speaker 6 to pinpoint, sorry, if you had to pinpoint what it is, what do you think it is?

Speaker 5 I think it is fear-based. I think that it's

Speaker 4 parental insecurity.

Speaker 5 Yes, I think there's some like infertility trauma because that's hard yeah you know not being able to have your own child you know like that's hard and it's sad and i do feel like it's gotten it's gotten things have gotten more rocky as she has gotten older and

Speaker 5 asking questions yeah yes she's been asking and i she's asked questions i've been informed of these questions that she's asking and i think it scares them which i get that when she's older she might want everything to do with us and nothing with them and this and that's pretty much the main fear that we believe is driving everybody.

Speaker 5 And the sad thing is, though, is like I've told them, even face to face,

Speaker 5 like Carly could come to me and say, like, oh my gosh, my mom and my dad just bugged me because they want me to do this, this, this, and this. I said, I will always have your back.

Speaker 5 And I will always say, they are your parents. Those are your parents, and they love you, and they're doing those things because they want the best for you.

Speaker 5 And why I will, if even I can not agree with everything that they do,

Speaker 5 but I will always advocate for them and have their backs because, guess what? They raised her.

Speaker 4 Yeah, they raised her.

Speaker 5 And I always tell Tyr I'm like, those are are the people who cuddled her when she scraped her knee riding her bike, those are the ones who are cleaning up puke at two in the morning off the floor.

Speaker 4 Like, they love her, and so they deserve that advocacy, in our opinion. Yeah, and we always do that.

Speaker 5 And I've told him that face to face, so

Speaker 5 just the way that it's gotten is sad, yeah. You know, I mean, a lot of people didn't see before all this bloop on social media and the aftermath that I was physically going through.

Speaker 5 Um, it brought up a lot of PTSD for me

Speaker 5 and for him. And it was a very hard time in my life.

Speaker 5 And it's just, and now that's why we're going to put the truth out there in ways that we can, because it's not all, there's bad things that each of us have done as people.

Speaker 4 And but I think we're, we take accountability for those things. And we, we, I mean, we, we always try to put ourselves in their shoes.
And that's why we did say silent for so long.

Speaker 4 It's like, I don't want to, I'm trying to understand your perception as her parents, and I get why all these things are, you have all these fears and stuff, but I just feel like for you as a parent to allow your insecurity and this fear to trump the best interest of her doesn't make sense to me, and that's also not what we wanted and what we agreed upon 15 years ago.

Speaker 4 Like, it's we always were supposed to be a team and to, you know, throw her. And so, when we ask you, is anything we're doing harming her? You know, is anything that we're talking about affecting her?

Speaker 4 Or are these visits?

Speaker 5 Hardly not wanting to have the visits. Because I would take that, and yeah, I would probably cry about it, but I would respect it.
And then none of this would be happening.

Speaker 6 Yeah, but they don't even want to talk to you. No.

Speaker 4 So it's hard to do anything or mend anything when you don't, when you just cut off communication. It's weird.
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 6 You're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't in this type of situation.

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Speaker 4 shook me, Tyler, when we were on our live is when I asked you, like, what are like your regrets about it and you said you wish you chose different parents for coming did dawn did they reach out to dawn and say anything about that like did you get any response from that i mean no not that i know that we know but i think i think it's interesting that you bring that up because if i would have said my only regret is i wish i would have parented that is literally the same thing as saying i wish she had different parents because i would be we would be her parents There's no difference in me saying, and that would have been accepted by TikTok people and everyone.

Speaker 4 That would have been fine if i would be like oh my biggest regrets i wish i would have parented her and everyone would have been like oh wow yeah of course yeah the fact that i said i regret and wish i would have picked different parents for her everyone freaked out and it was like i mean i was shook i didn't know what the hell to say

Speaker 6 i was like oh but oh god you've been shook if i said i wish i would have parented her and no i would have understood that okay so that there's no so there's no difference in those two answers so does that make sense do you Do you take that back and say, I wish that we, if we knew, like, if we knew how far like Teen Mom and everything everything would have gone, I wish that we would have kept her.

Speaker 5 You know, I always say, it's hard, it's a hard thing. Yeah, I think for, well, for me personally, I always say to myself,

Speaker 5 you know, if I could go back, there's things that I would change about my adoption. And I wish there was more things I was educated about when I was making that decision.

Speaker 5 I still think that I would have chose that option for her because all of the shit that I went through

Speaker 5 and shit afterwards, my mental health stuff, all of it, you know what I mean? Like, I definitely still would have. I just was not ready at that time, and I didn't, you know, just yet.

Speaker 4 And also, the fact that we didn't get to spend a lot of time with them. We only met him one time, and then we met him again when she was giving birth.

Speaker 4 So, it's like, I think for sure, I would change some things, yeah.

Speaker 5 And also, we weren't educated on the fact of that they always wanted a closed adoption.

Speaker 4 I didn't find that out till way later in life, which we thought was really weird, but we also were like, oh, that's why we don't know their last name for years. That's why we don't know their address.

Speaker 4 That's why we can't have their phone number for years.

Speaker 5 Like, because at first we were like, because I remember she was born, I was like, oh, what's your last name? And they were like, oh, we don't want to tell you.

Speaker 4 So me and Carrie, and I was like,

Speaker 4 okay.

Speaker 5 And then we get a card on our first birthday, and it had their full name on it, like Brian and Teresa's full names with their last names.

Speaker 5 And it didn't click at first. I'm like, what?

Speaker 4 This is the point.

Speaker 5 We went a year without knowing their last name. We went multiple years without being able to send gifts right to the house.
We had to go to Dawn.

Speaker 5 Yeah, we would go to Dawn and then Dawn would ship them. They would send stuff to Dawn.

Speaker 5 But it was so, even some things came out after she was born and years down the road. Like, I didn't know they always wanted a closed adoption.

Speaker 4 Which that's why I want to bring up to the point that like there were only there was four people involved in this agreement and two of them were children and two of them were adults.

Speaker 4 And so when you find out that you originally wanted closed, why did you not just say, we're not a good fit.

Speaker 6 We want open. Why didn't Dawn say that?

Speaker 4 Well, she mentioned to them, she said, hey, they want to open.

Speaker 6 Why didn't she tell you guys that?

Speaker 4 We don't know. I don't know.
I think it's because the whole goal was to get a baby. So we're going to step up.
It is. And that's why the industry needs to kind of, we need adoption reform, period.

Speaker 4 And all of that. Especially being

Speaker 5 children, like you said,

Speaker 5 signing these. They're not legally binding in any way.
So it's not like I can get a lawyer and fight to see my kid. Not like I would do that anyways.
Right, yeah.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 5 we had no legal representation. We had nobody really.

Speaker 5 When you're 16.

Speaker 6 Not guidance either.

Speaker 5 Right. No, yeah, we didn't have any guidance.
And I was going off of a verbal saying, oh my gosh, I'm giving them my child that I want so badly. Of course, they're going to listen.

Speaker 5 Of course, they're going to do everything they're going to say they're going to do, you know?

Speaker 4 Well, and also because we're kids and we're trusting the adults around us to try to like, okay, I'm going to listen to you.

Speaker 4 I don't know anything about this and you do and you're a grown-up and I'm not. And so we're going to trust, kind of trust your whole, you know, trust your word and we're going to go with that.

Speaker 4 But it's like when we afterwards, all these things unfolded. And we also felt like I think we were trying to kind of like heal about what's going on.

Speaker 4 So, we didn't push back at all because we're like, we never did this before. I don't know how to navigate all this.

Speaker 6 We didn't even know what the questions to ask.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, and I also feel like if you were an adult and you knew what you wanted, I think your responsibility should have been, this isn't a good fit for us. We want clothes.

Speaker 4 The fact that you shifted your desires to get the baby is selfish to me. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Because I feel like that automatically kind of shows that you weren't weren't really planning on, you know, doing what we agreed upon in a way. That's what it felt like, at least.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I mean, that's what it felt like when we found all of this out. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And for Dawn to not, you know, tell you guys that is disappointing. Yeah.

Speaker 4 I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you.

Speaker 5 I can look back on some things and I see some clips now that I'm older and I'm like, whoa, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 6 She wasn't forthcoming with certain things.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 It's...

Speaker 4 The whole adoption thing is just crazy. It's insane.
The fact that this is such a unique story and it's been shown on TV and people have every journey is not the same at all.

Speaker 4 Yeah, he was going to ask a question, though.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I wanted to ask: have

Speaker 6 Brandon and Teresa ever said to you guys that, you know, now that she's getting older, like, does she get recognized? Do they get recognized? Like, is that a problem for them?

Speaker 6 Because Carly, I'm assuming, I don't know, looks just like your other kids.

Speaker 6 So do they get recognized in public?

Speaker 5 They have never said anything to us.

Speaker 5 I feel like Brandon, I mean, I feel like they probably do.

Speaker 5 I'm And I don't know if it's just the culture of T-Mom fans and them just and being in the South respecting them or maybe people do come up to Brain and Teresa because they are very recognizable people.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 4 I remember we asked them at a visit and they said no, no, we're everything's everyone where we live is everything's really great. And so we were like, oh, okay.

Speaker 5 So I don't know if it's just a southern thing and like respect because I mean like you said, there are weird people out there.

Speaker 5 Like we have had people message us and be like, oh my gosh, Carly just walked into my coffee shop today and she was the sweetest little, like, I'm telling you, yeah, so people are, you know, weird, but obviously people know who she is.

Speaker 5 I just think down there, maybe it's like a respect thing because they know Brain and Teresa.

Speaker 4 They don't want to.

Speaker 5 Yeah. But then it's weird because, but then a part of Brain and Teresa does want to.
So it's confusing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, because my whole thing is that, like,

Speaker 4 and if, like, your moral ground can't be shaky. It's got to be firm.
And I feel like their moral ground is not.

Speaker 6 Like, the line is always moving with them.

Speaker 4 And so it's weird. It's like, okay, if your concern is for her safety or her privacy, then why are you agreeing to get paid for a photo of the back of her head? And

Speaker 4 what is the point? That's crazy to me.

Speaker 5 I'm seeing that stuff that people don't know, so I get why we look like

Speaker 5 we're disobeying or breaking boundaries.

Speaker 6 You asked for money for a picture of the back of the head.

Speaker 4 That's crazy. So that's what I'm saying.
Why is the moral ground keep moving?

Speaker 4 I don't know. It's just,

Speaker 4 it's one of those things where it's like for years, those things would be happening behind closed doors. And obviously, we're just kind of like, don't want to, you know,

Speaker 4 shake the basket at all. So we're like, oh, we're not gonna say anything but at this point it's like

Speaker 4 i i think it's only fair that this the full scope of the story gets put out there and for the sake of if carly is the one not wanting this disconnect if she's the one that actually wants to have access to communicate with us and they're not allowing that then this is all i have to advocate for her as her birth parent to get this information out to her in addition to the shell yeah and i don't i don't know what they're telling her so it's just a whole thing of like all the years we've tried to like, you know, get them on the phone, and they wouldn't, and it was like we would have to wait weeks, and then we'd get a response, and it's very like, it almost sounds like a prompt, like a scripted response.

Speaker 6 And we're over here, like an AI kind of thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, yeah, like, we're like, dude, you're not giving a presidential speech, we just want to talk. Like, right, and so then we used to, we used to kind of like be in denial or

Speaker 4 in their defense, be like, oh, well, they're southern and we're Midwest, and maybe I think we were in the fog.

Speaker 5 Like how adoptees go through fog. I swear, I think there's a birth-parent fog.

Speaker 4 I mean, I never really thought about it.

Speaker 4 I swear, I think there is one.

Speaker 5 Like how you said, you go through life being like, I did the best thing, and no, I'm so happy because look at her life, and I did the best thing for her, and I gave her life, and I gave this couple of kids.

Speaker 5 I'm not going to say my feelings because they could take my, I swear, I think it's a whole fog, and then eventually you get older, and you're like, Whoa, no, wait, this shit is hard.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it hurts. And we also deserve to share, express our feelings, but it's like every time we do, we get shame for it.
Well, it's weird.

Speaker 5 Only when we've shared the hurt feelings, we've gotten shame for it, you know.

Speaker 5 Like, if that makes sense, like, every time we've talked about the good, it's always praised, and you did such an amazing thing, and all of that.

Speaker 5 But the one time I come out and say it doesn't feel like love, it hurts, and I'm sad. People are like,

Speaker 5 Sit down. That's not correct.

Speaker 5 You know, look.

Speaker 4 How dare you? Yeah.

Speaker 4 They saved her. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 5 I'm just saying.

Speaker 6 You're not saying that they didn't save her. Yeah.

Speaker 5 I'm just saying that it sometimes it hurts.

Speaker 4 I wanted to like make sure that you got the full story because on your TikToks, you're really passionate and you're very spicy and like you have a lot of opinions and there are strong opinions, which is cool, great.

Speaker 4 But if you're going to have an opinion, have all the information and then you can cast it. You know what I mean? Which I feel like that's kind of the whole purpose of this.

Speaker 4 And that's why we and her were like, listen, we want to make this podcast be an open platform for people who don't agree with us, who have opposing viewpoints, or whatever.

Speaker 4 Because I think it's important to have how boring would it be to conversate with someone who agrees with you all the time. That's stupid.

Speaker 4 Yeah, exactly. And I feel like it can be constructive and help people.
So, I mean, that's the only reason why we're like, yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah, and the whole, like, when I was making the videos and our discussion, I was having a hard time finding, like, what the end goal was for both of you.

Speaker 6 But you both have made it pretty clear that, like, you don't care what happens with Brandon and Teresa now.

Speaker 6 So, for that, I mean, might as well just keep, you know, airing it out because bridges have been burned at this point. And there's never going to be, I mean, mean, I don't think a civil relationship.

Speaker 6 Again, I think too much has gone down, unfortunately. Do you think that Carly's friends have told her about this show?

Speaker 4 I have no idea. She goes to a very, very conservative, you know, private Christian school.
And I feel like a lot of their

Speaker 5 social media, her phone, you know, it's very like monitored, which is a good thing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you know, that's how they live their life. But, I mean, I'm not really sure.
I guess when you say the end goal, my end goal with this is truth. And I feel like

Speaker 4 with the truth, people can form their own opinion better in a more educated opinion. And so it's like the end goal with this is just the truth.

Speaker 4 And that is a truth for Carly to know these things and to not be put in the dark, which a lot of adoptees are. And they're lied to and they're, you know,

Speaker 4 told things that aren't true about their bio parents. And

Speaker 4 we've, after kind of coming out with it, it's like we've kind of seen that

Speaker 4 priority needs to be the adoptees. Like, they're the ones that are most affected by this choice of adoption.
Yeah. And they deserve

Speaker 4 to be, you know, represented. And we should prioritize their experience and their feelings about being an adoptee.

Speaker 4 And so that's the whole goal of this is to advocate for Carly in this only way that we really can.

Speaker 4 I wish we could just talk to her ourselves and ask these questions or her parents would be more transparent with us, but unfortunately, this is like where we're at like what else are we supposed to do and I think a lot of people are like oh well just wait till she's 18 and stop and all the adoptees that have reached out and said do not do that because you we all we ever wanted was to know that our bio parents like tried tried and kept fighting for us and so I feel like with that being said it's like I don't care about Brian Teresa right now it's about this kid and she deserves this true and like I said unless they said unless they told us and said it's hard for her to see you raising her sisters or whatever it is, I understand that and get it.

Speaker 5 So I would be like, hey, we'll step back and we'll be here if she ever has any questions or wants to.

Speaker 4 And we also say, like, we almost in a way wish it was her because then all this would be not happening. It'd be, oh, so much easier.
All right, cool. We can just forget about this and wait for it.

Speaker 4 It would be hard.

Speaker 4 I get it. Yeah.
But the fact of the matter is, we don't know that. And so with those two scenarios that are possibilities, I feel a duty to do this.

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Speaker 6 Yeah, and I want to circle back on what you said about,

Speaker 6 you know, the adoptees community and everybody um that were telling you never stop, never stop.

Speaker 6 Do you think that they kind of gassed you up, so to speak, to the point where it made you want to vent even more on social media, which is what ended up getting you blocked?

Speaker 4 No, I think it confirms that what we were doing was what we needed to do.

Speaker 4 Because I feel like that didn't happen until after we said what we said and, you know, pretty much announced that we were blocked and we were, they closed adoption.

Speaker 4 And then they were like, all right, well, this is what, as an adoptee community, this is what we feel

Speaker 4 what you you should do. And so, if anything, it just kind of confirmed for us, all right, all right, here we go, let's get into this.

Speaker 4 Because I feel like the reason why we were blocked, it wasn't because Kate expressed her feelings online, it was the fact that her expressing her feelings online put adoption in a bad light and put them in a bad light.

Speaker 5 Yeah, it was starting to show, I was starting to show a little bit more of the truth side of our adoption journey with them.

Speaker 5 And I think, like, them being super conservative and in the South, like

Speaker 5 you, they don't want people to look at them in a negative way. Like, for instance, when

Speaker 5 Teresa told Dawn to tell us, like, don't be sending any more gifts.

Speaker 4 It's uncalled for.

Speaker 5 She also told Dawn to tell us that

Speaker 5 you can't send any more gifts or anything. It's uncalled for and disrespectful, but don't tell anybody that I said that.

Speaker 5 So we were like, does that make sense? Almost in the fact of, like, you don't want the full truth out because then it's actually showing how you really are being as an adoptive family.

Speaker 5 And then you're telling me that I can't say that, though. So, in turn, it's making me look like the bad guy all over.

Speaker 4 Or also trying to like control the whole

Speaker 4 narrative or a story, which, as you said, what's a sign of manipulation?

Speaker 6 Right. That's what I was saying.
Okay. See, see,

Speaker 6 on social media, that's all I saw.

Speaker 4 I get it. Right.
Which is what that's, yeah, I get it. Right.

Speaker 6 But I get you, which was my whole point of everything. But hearing your side, it does change certain things for me because there is a lot that we do not see behind the scenes.

Speaker 6 That I guess your goal is to get it out on social media. Yeah.

Speaker 6 I mean, it's tough. And all the comments that I had in like my TikTok and Instagram section, very mixed.
I would say it's 50-50. Half people support you.
Half the people want you to shut up. Right.

Speaker 6 You know, and I will say, even though I came in pretty hot and heavy and everything, I'm glad I did because I was educated by people in the adoptee community. They messaged me.

Speaker 6 They're like, hey, stop saying giving up for adoption.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Right.
They tell you about the the wording. Yes.
Or the savior complex and the gifting thing they hate. Yes.

Speaker 6 They were like, say, placed for adoption. And this is why, because you know, and they explained it to me, and I'm open to learning about that stuff because

Speaker 6 I've never had to think about that because I wasn't adopted and I've never given a child or placed a child up for adoption. See there,

Speaker 4 but I'm learning. You know, you're right.
Yeah. So

Speaker 6 I'm glad I did because I'm, you know, and I've made friends with people on social media and everything. So it's, it's, it has been beneficial.

Speaker 5 Yeah. No, and I'm glad you did too because I think think it

Speaker 5 brought the discussion even further, you know, and more just education about it and different sides of it and things like that.

Speaker 4 Which is kind of the whole point of us doing this. It's like, let's get the conversation going.

Speaker 6 Like you said, it came in hot and heavy.

Speaker 4 You know, now it's getting this community to be, hey, this is what we like. This is what's respectful for us and whatever.

Speaker 4 And then you learn and it's like, you know, you take accountability and here I am and you're learning and it's great. And that's the whole point of all of this.

Speaker 5 I think we can take accountability for what we did wrong and own it, you know?

Speaker 5 And I think, too, like through this whole journey and everything, now, and it's still about Carly again, but I think it's also shifted and it's made me learn even more as a birth mom.

Speaker 5 I've just been talking to, it's just shifted for me in the sense of just listening to adoptees and all of their stories and what they wish they their birth parents would have done, what they wish their adoptive parents would have done.

Speaker 5 And so it's now it's more or less like a lot of them feel silenced. They feel like they have to protect their adoptive parents' feelings.

Speaker 5 They feel like their stories are always told for them when it's their story to tell. And so now it's kind of shifted where it's like they need to have a voice.

Speaker 5 Because I feel if you're hearing it from the mouths of the people that are the most affected by it, maybe there can be change.

Speaker 4 Maybe there's

Speaker 5 you know, maybe there can be some things that are reformed with adoption that only benefits the child who's the most affected by it all. So it's kind of shifted now.

Speaker 5 It's like, and that still in turn will help Carly in the future because she will see us advocating for people who are just like her to have a voice. And yeah.

Speaker 4 I mean, that's the whole, that's pretty much the whole main goal of all this. It's not to, you know, try to get sympathy from people.

Speaker 4 It's not to try to, you know, control and get recruit people to be on our side. Like I said, we invited you because you're having a couple of opposing viewpoints.
I want to hear,

Speaker 4 I love the criticism. Let's hear it.
Let's get into it.

Speaker 4 So

Speaker 4 yeah. And I think it's just a good way, the only way really we have.

Speaker 4 Like I said, I wish we could just talk to them and call her ourselves, but we can't. So here we are.

Speaker 4 You know, I mean, there's no other way to get the voices heard.

Speaker 5 And since we're not all like, you know, we're not allowed to call them or text them or send gifts anymore either.

Speaker 5 The reason why we are still talking about it and filming about it for our show and everything, too, is because.

Speaker 5 You know, she's 15 years old. What's going to happen when she wakes up on Christmas and her adopted, her brother, who's also adopted, is opening all all these gifts from his birth family?

Speaker 5 And she's sitting there with nothing from the first time in 15 years. For her birthdays and Christmas, Easter, you know, stuff like that.

Speaker 4 And how are they going to explain that?

Speaker 6 So Brandon and Teresa are still in communication with her brother's birth mom. Oh, yeah.
Because I know that you said in the beginning that...

Speaker 5 Yeah, she's very much like them, Loa, as far as like being conservative Christian and like, you know, like that, that kind of stuff.

Speaker 6 Never asked questions or but she's not blocked from Brandon and Teresa.

Speaker 5 No. And I, you know, I feel like in a sense, she would always come to me and ask if we're going to get visits, things like that, because she knew, like, okay, well, ask the question.

Speaker 5 You know, she'll ask me.

Speaker 4 She's like, hey, will you ask?

Speaker 5 But I think that's one of my fears is, like, is, you know, is Carly sitting there wondering, like, wow, after 15 years, 16 years, I'm getting nothing? And why? Why am I not getting anything?

Speaker 5 And are they telling her the truth of it all? Are they telling her that they are the ones that said you can't send gifts anymore? Are you the one? Are you telling her all of these things, you know?

Speaker 5 And so that's why I feel so passionate about it because, like you said, her friends.

Speaker 5 What if her friends come across something and they say, look, they're still trying because she's going to talk to her peers more than she is going to be like her parents.

Speaker 5 Her friends probably know on a deeper level what she feels and wants, you know? Yeah. And so that's, that's, that's a thing.

Speaker 5 Like, I, it's just, I don't want her sitting there thinking like, wow, after 15 years, they just stopped and they folded and they listened and didn't try.

Speaker 5 So.

Speaker 4 And I think it's honestly one thing that Branch Reese are going to have to answer. They will.
And I think the difference between me and Kate and Branch Reese is that I'm an open book.

Speaker 4 I have nothing to hide. I have no shame.
And so when she comes to me and asks these questions, I will. I'll be honest.
I'll be honest. And hopefully, you're doing the same thing.

Speaker 4 So when she does pick up on Christmas morning and for the first time in 15 years, not have a present from us, I hope you're explaining it to her. I hope you're, you know, in the right way.

Speaker 6 And not saying, oh, I don't know.

Speaker 4 Maybe they just didn't.

Speaker 6 Maybe they skipped you this year. Like, I hope that's not.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I hope not either. And I hope that they're telling her that we reach out every year for a visit and they say no next year.
And so all those kind of things I just. Because I do.

Speaker 4 I reach out every year I would well did yeah well this will be the first Christmas you're not sending gifts yeah because I think in this in this regard it's like okay fine we and everyone's it's funny because people are like respect them respect them okay I respect them no I won't send gifts but who's that hard who is that naming I'm making sure Branch Reese are good but what about Carly who's not gonna have a present especially when adoption is supposed to be centered around the adoptee yes right and it's not legally binding either so it's not like there's anything that you could even do

Speaker 6 your hands are kind kind of tied in that sense, where it's like, and I noticed a lot of people saying that, get a lawyer, get a lawyer, and I'm like, you guys, you can't do anything.

Speaker 4 There's adoption is not legally binding, which honestly, doesn't that kind of prove the point of the intention of doing this? Because people still like, well, just get a lawyer.

Speaker 4 It's like, you guys don't even know how adoption works. Like, there's nothing legally binding at all.
It's a verbal agreement with this adoption agency, and that's it.

Speaker 4 And so, and I think it's interesting because people will bring up the contract that we signed at 16 that said, like, the first five five years or something like that but

Speaker 4 does precedence not matter I know you said for the first five years but you continued to have this pattern in in in ritual and

Speaker 4 in tradition

Speaker 4 and so it's like it's like people are like well go back to the contract you'd never it's like what guys they are the ones that did it

Speaker 4 yeah it changed it changed

Speaker 4 which we always say we're really thankful that the fact that it's a double-edged sword right like we're glad that you want to close and you chose to kind of vulnerably open it up more than you ever wanted to.

Speaker 4 Yeah. But at the same time, like, it just doesn't make any sense that now you take it away without really a good enough reason.

Speaker 5 Well, and now the fact of the matter, too, of Carly being 14, it's not like she doesn't remember all those memories.

Speaker 4 Right. You know,

Speaker 4 our kids, and they talk, so it's like, you can't just cut it all off and pretend nothing happened.

Speaker 6 I watched an episode recently where they said it would have to be really bad to cut you both off.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 6 But they're not giving you a reason as to what it is.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I'm lit.
We were literally left in the dark.

Speaker 4 And that's funny. Oh, you're talking about the clip that we had.
Yeah,

Speaker 4 I think it's really interesting to bring that up because

Speaker 4 we don't watch the show. We don't really

Speaker 4 know. Yeah, yeah.
But I have gotten clips from that. People have sent it to me.
Yeah, that's right. And I think if you pay attention to her demeanor and her

Speaker 6 spicy

Speaker 4 and her respect or empathy, it's like it's

Speaker 4 that is what we have dealt with the last 15 years is it kind of like when I'm expressing a vulnerability, you're like

Speaker 4 Like it's like a

Speaker 5 like our feelings don't matter. That's what it's about

Speaker 4 almost.

Speaker 6 It's very uh she comes across very um passive-aggressive at certain points.

Speaker 4 She can be very bless your heart.

Speaker 5 Yeah, she's spicy and yeah,

Speaker 4 yeah, so but she doesn't like when you know, I don't think she wants to be kind of painted in that light. So

Speaker 4 I guess we're the ones that get in trouble for that.

Speaker 6 I mean, you're an easier target because you guys are on national television. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Right, exactly.

Speaker 4 But I also feel like, what a missed opportunity. You're an adoptive parent.
You could have really helped the community in adoption. You could have really been a voice for adoptive parents.

Speaker 4 You could have taken this opportunity and really just put a different light on it.

Speaker 4 But you didn't.

Speaker 4 And you're okay with it sometimes and not okay with it other times. And it's just.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's inconsistent.

Speaker 5 And it's like wishy-washy.

Speaker 4 It's like, oh, whoa, but you were fine with it last year, but okay, now we're in trouble and now, and we were able to say the word sisters for years, and now we're not allowed to say that word because you don't like it.

Speaker 5 And it's just so there's so like you said, there's way more, you know, and I'm sure they have a whole nother side too. Right.
And I would be down to hear it. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And I'd privately and have a conversation, you know, like I would. Yeah.

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Speaker 6 Yeah, and I asked you, Tyler, about like your OnlyFans. Like, is that the thing that really

Speaker 6 did it for them? They're like, oh no, we can't have this. Because she's tattooed on you.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think her her name. I think it's interesting too, because all this stuff happened so much,

Speaker 4 not the considering the closing completely, but she's had issues before that ever happened. Right.
So, was that the cherry on top? I have no idea. I'm not, I don't know.

Speaker 6 And you said that you had asked her on the live. Like, how did please tell me how that conversation went on the live? What do you mean? Yeah, I was like, did was the only fans that did it?

Speaker 6 And you're like, I've asked. Like, who did you ask? Because I would love to hear that conversation.

Speaker 4 Well, you asked Brandon and Teresa.

Speaker 6 Like, did you see my

Speaker 4 thing that I've done online? If I do that, okay, any new things that I've done, like, you know, I didn't say outright say it. I get to the nitty gritty.
Yeah, but I was like,

Speaker 5 if she would have told Dawn that, that would have, you know, triggered Dawn's brain. Like, oh, yeah, this.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 But no, and honestly.

Speaker 5 And we shut it down. I shut it down.

Speaker 4 I said, Justin, you know, because that's a good point. Okay, I get it.
No, we live a different, very, very different lifestyle than they do. And I think that's okay to have different.

Speaker 4 morals and ethics and what's good and what's not. And so if that, even if that was the case, fine, take it down.
We took it down. Shut it down.
Shut it down. I can respect that.

Speaker 6 And I did, you got, you got a lot of backlash for your OnlyFans because, you know, you guys gave Farah a bunch of crap about, you know, being, you know, what, doing what she did.

Speaker 4 But you apologize.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Yes, you did.
And I think a lot of people forget that because I went back and re-watched and you guys admitted that you were wrong for that. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean,

Speaker 4 I've done what I could and I've got to do.

Speaker 5 Especially like being parents now, you know, who have daughters and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 Like, obviously, what I want them going and doing porn or, you know, but no, if they want to take spicy photos photos or they feel really good about themselves, then they want with our girls, we talk about body

Speaker 4 all the time.

Speaker 5 Sexual, like, talking about sex and stuff like that shouldn't be looked down upon, like, because it's a natural thing.

Speaker 5 So, there are certain things, yeah, where it's like, what? Yeah, we did get a real hard time.

Speaker 4 But I also think that you acknowledge you were wrong. And also, and also, I think, is it not safe that things change? Your opinions change.
People evolve.

Speaker 6 Like, people

Speaker 4 evolve. Things that were tabooed 10 years ago are not taboo now.
We have more information on it. And so I think people should not be so concrete, like, oh my God, it's like, no, no, no, wait.

Speaker 4 We are allowed to shift. Our values are allowed to shift and change and move with new information and new data.
And that's what's happening.

Speaker 4 So I feel like all I can do is say, I'm sorry for the way that she was treated.

Speaker 4 Do I feel she's very not a nice person? Right. You can just like her for a couple other things.

Speaker 4 And I think people get confused that that's why she was fired. And it wasn't.
She used Team Mom in the title.

Speaker 4 It was a whole-produced film versus a paid, paywall, 18-year-older website, which is blocked by, you know, so there's a difference. There's a difference.

Speaker 4 I'm not saying that, like, that justifies anything.

Speaker 5 Shouldn't she have gotten a bunch of hate for it? I mean, no. I mean, there's porn stars.
There's sex workers.

Speaker 6 Well, it's because she said it was a home video.

Speaker 4 Like, she didn't. Yeah, and it wasn't.

Speaker 4 Yeah. That was our production.
Like, don't.

Speaker 5 Me and Ty used to always say, like, don't lie.

Speaker 4 I just don't know. Just say it about it.
Who cares? Yep, I did it. Yeah.
I'm on Team Mom. I want to capitalize on my shit.
And this time I did it.

Speaker 6 I'm like, like, girl, yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I'm going to follow Kim, girl.
Kim K's thing, and you did that. It's fine.
I think the approach was really weird because you're like trying to pretend it's just.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah, there is a little bit of that where it's like, I would, you know, I would apologize to Farah and tell her that, you know, I, I don't know.

Speaker 4 I don't think she's going to hear it.

Speaker 5 No, maybe not, but you know, but we do.

Speaker 6 She might hear that now.

Speaker 4 Yeah, she might. Maybe.
I don't know. I'm not really sure, but

Speaker 4 I guess that's all I can do, right? Right. Take accountability.
Okay, yep. Yep, we took the only fans down.

Speaker 4 Just in case, if that was a thing, that was what it was.

Speaker 4 I think it's really clear, though. Do I agree that that is not morally correct? It's like, no,

Speaker 4 we have freedom, and everyone does.

Speaker 6 According to them, though, because they're super, super religious, right?

Speaker 4 But I think it's one of those things where it's like,

Speaker 4 we're allowed to live different lives and have different religious views.

Speaker 5 And then it brings up the question, too.

Speaker 5 Like, so, you know, just if this was the case, it's like, you know, you have people that work at strip clubs and they're strippers and they dance and they show their tits and some can be fully nude, you know, some underwear models on billboards.

Speaker 5 Right, but like, you know, are strippers not allowed to have children, or does that hurt their children? I don't know.

Speaker 5 Does yeah, Kelvin Klein models and their underwear, are they not allowed to have children? You know, so it's a hard thing to balance, but that's why we just said, well, we'll take it down.

Speaker 4 If that's their reasoning, that we don't know if it is or not. Just in case.
Do we think we're morally wrong? No, not really. I think it's empowering and it's freedom, and that's what it is.

Speaker 4 And I think anyone, Pamela Anderson, she's allowed to have kids just because she did her thing doesn't mean she's not allowed to be a parent.

Speaker 4 I feel like people, the backlash backlash is like, you have children. It's like, well, yeah.
And how do you get children? You have sex. You have sex.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 And, you know, how do you like, you know, and eventually those children are going to be adults and do the same fucking thing. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And what's the difference between a model on a billboard in Times Square or a bathing suit guy in a bathing suit at the beach?

Speaker 4 Like your children, so it's like, it's a, it's, I think it brings up an interesting topic. Yeah.

Speaker 6 So I think that's the only reason why you got backlash was because of what you guys said to Farah.

Speaker 6 But like you said, you guys did, people need to re-watch the episodes because I think all of you, Macy included,

Speaker 6 acknowledge you are wrong.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so I mean, that's all we can do, right? Right. That's all I can do.
I can't. So I mean, we're very accountable.

Speaker 5 I can say, oh, shit, yeah, that wasn't really good.

Speaker 4 And I'm sorry. Then my roles have changed.

Speaker 5 My beliefs have changed.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I have more understanding or whatever the case is. Yeah, I mean, so

Speaker 4 this whole thing is just messy. It is.
And it's gotten to a point where it's like,

Speaker 4 I have...

Speaker 4 I only have control of what I have control of, which is us sharing our story. And so that's what we're going to do.

Speaker 4 And I feel like if people are gonna go online and have strong opinions just I want you to have all the information and so that's the whole the whole the whole goal I really I mean

Speaker 4 it's not our job to protect brand freeze and I think people even kind of

Speaker 4 deem that as controversial but when you know their operation how they've handled this for the 15 years it's like it it's hypocritical to to think that they're you know we're not protecting them they're not even doing the things that they said

Speaker 4 Yeah, so it's like it's just the whole thing is it's just messy.

Speaker 6 It's not pretty behind the scenes and everything.

Speaker 6 Yeah, which is why I'm glad that we had this conversation and everything because we don't know the full story until we ask the right, like ask the questions from people directly.

Speaker 5 Yes, yeah, and that's why I thought it was important to talk to you because I mean, you know, it's just important for people to know. There's two sides to every story.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and you're, and you said you also, you're the child of an addict. You're an addict yourself.
We talked about this on Instagram, which I commend your sobriety. I think it's amazing and great.

Speaker 4 You got me Googling, like, how do I become a, yeah, but um, so I think that's really great. Uh,

Speaker 4 but I wondered, I'm like, I wonder if that is why your opinion was so strong about, oh, they're manipulating for sympathy.

Speaker 4 And I was like, oh, it's kind of interesting because I wonder if you are almost saying that because

Speaker 4 you've done that.

Speaker 6 You spot it, you got it.

Speaker 6 You spot it, you got it.

Speaker 4 You've done that as an addict. Yes.
I've never been an addict. Yep.

Speaker 6 But you have parents that have taught you certain behaviors that you've inherited, whether you guys are aware of it or not. You guys, by the way, you guys are not your parents.

Speaker 6 I just want to clarify that.

Speaker 4 I'm going to say, yeah, you are not your parents.

Speaker 6 But, I mean, when you're the child of an addict, like, they teach you. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 I mean, I would, I would be lying if I say that the way that my mother was growing up didn't, it didn't affect me in negative ways. It has.

Speaker 5 And I've had to do lots of therapies to re to rewrite those ways.

Speaker 5 You know, mine's more or less like social monitoring and monitoring and creating emo or uh controlling emotions when I walk into a room of other people.

Speaker 5 And so, I would, you know, what I get what you're saying, yeah, but I get your perception.

Speaker 4 I just feel like,

Speaker 4 you know, that's why I asked about the whole thing of where's the line of me sharing my story versus now manipulating precisibility. It's kind of a, yeah, you know what I mean?

Speaker 5 Yeah, so I don't know. After all of that, I don't really know what your updated version of thinking is or not.
If we changed anything, if we brought awareness, it wasn't a goal.

Speaker 4 I was like, not that it wasn't a goal.

Speaker 4 That's not.

Speaker 6 So I'll tell you what.

Speaker 5 And be upfront and honest with you.

Speaker 4 I'll be upfront and honest.

Speaker 6 I still think that venting is not a great idea just because of the negativity that it attracts.

Speaker 6 But at the same time, Brandon and Teresa's hands are not clean.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 6 So I think that there is blame on both sides. I think that it's messy.
It's not black and white. This whole thing is gray.

Speaker 6 And I don't think there's a right or wrong way to go about this because I feel like it's very unprecedented. You know, nobody has ever had an adoption story on national national TV in this way.

Speaker 4 Right.

Speaker 6 And it's continued on 15 or so years later. So I feel like there's no roadmap for you guys to go off of.
There's nobody that has walked in your shoes before. This is a very unique situation.

Speaker 6 So I don't know, although, I mean, we judge it on TV and everything, but I don't know if I can judge completely because I don't know all the facts. about things that have happened behind the scenes.

Speaker 6 But I'm glad that you guys share that because when you reveal certain things about Brandon and Teresa and how, you know, they're not doing their end of the bargain, it does make me look at them differently.

Speaker 6 I'm like, hmm, yeah, I would probably venture to do that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I was going to say, too, because I wonder if now, with that understanding, do you think that some of your opinions on other reality TV or anyone that you talk about pop culture-wise,

Speaker 4 you should try to just, I mean, as much as you can, try to like dig into that.

Speaker 5 That makes you what you do even better, too.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it makes you better at your job.

Speaker 6 Because your job is just to yeah, when I do deep dives, I try to show all sides. I did one on the Christley family.
I'm very interested to meet uh Lindsay because I've talked about her on there too.

Speaker 6 Um, but I do try to show all sides because there are

Speaker 6 all different sides to a different story.

Speaker 4 So,

Speaker 6 yeah,

Speaker 6 so now that Carly is about the same age of being 16, you were when you got pregnant, and the start of the show,

Speaker 6 what would you guys say to

Speaker 6 two 16-year-olds that were going through the same thing and thinking about placing their child up up for adoption.

Speaker 5 I think my biggest thing would be:

Speaker 5 you have to,

Speaker 5 I'm going to help you with research.

Speaker 5 We're going to research this together because I'm an adult and I can help you.

Speaker 4 And you deserve resources. Yep.

Speaker 5 I think also I would give the advice of like, really get to know these people. Don't only just meet them once.
You know, get...

Speaker 5 Find somebody who wants what you want. If you want an open adoption, let's look at all the couples that want really open adoption.
Meet with them more than once. Let's go to barbecues.

Speaker 5 You talk to the, just talk and talk and talk and talk as much as you want.

Speaker 5 For I would do my whole pregnancy. You know, as soon as I knew I was going to make that decision, I would have continuously done that.

Speaker 4 But I also feel like making the decision of placing your child for adoption, I think it should be like

Speaker 4 really talked about that that should be the last resort.

Speaker 4 The first resort you should have is support, resources, being a young child in a crisis situation. And adoption should be the very last thing that you look at as an option.

Speaker 4 There are options, there are grants, there are foundations that can help you.

Speaker 4 So I feel like...

Speaker 5 And we were never told anything.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 we were pretty much told that the best thing for you to do is let go and do this sacrifice for her. And so, of course, we were like, okay, and like I said, we have adults telling us this thing.

Speaker 4 So we don't have adults saying, hey, you know, there's... Someone who will help you get an apartment and there's someone who will get you a crib.

Speaker 5 This company will help you get a job and get on your feet.

Speaker 4 Yeah, like that wasn't.

Speaker 6 For you, it was like it was this or nothing.

Speaker 4 Yeah, it was this or go home to drug addicts.

Speaker 5 And be stuck in chaos.

Speaker 5 That's pretty much what it was. It was like you take her home and you're struggling, or you place her and she's going to be completely great.

Speaker 4 And there were times when we were going through the adoption where it was told to us, like, well, what's best for her?

Speaker 4 Are you going to take her back to your bedroom and have a crib in your bedroom with your alcoholic and drug addict parents? And we were like, oh my God. So in a way, it's like

Speaker 4 it makes you feel like not doing the adoption is wrong. And you're a bad parent parent already, and you haven't even birthed this child out in the world yet.

Speaker 5 So I feel like, yeah, I feel like kids who find themselves in situations, but also you can find yourself in this type of situation at any age.

Speaker 5 It doesn't just happen

Speaker 5 to young kids.

Speaker 5 I feel like being educated about all of the resources that there are in the world that can help you if you decide to parent.

Speaker 5 Also,

Speaker 5 if say you choose that adoption is what you want to do, get legal representation for yourself.

Speaker 4 And learn about adoption trauma and what that means because all adoptees inevitably face it. And we were never told any of that.

Speaker 5 I wasn't told the statistics that my adopted child would be way

Speaker 5 higher likelihood of drug addiction, of suicide, of mental health issues.

Speaker 6 Especially because, I mean, addiction runs in your family too.

Speaker 4 So if you're not afraid of that. And mental health does.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Mental health does.
So now she's even double dosed, triple dosed, because then she's placed, like, they don't tell you none of these things. Right.

Speaker 5 So, I think that's why when I say there needs to be some sort of reform and there needs to be deeper things talked about, because then we can make the best decisions for our children, right?

Speaker 4 You needed an advocate

Speaker 6 watching nurses seen her pregnant. I was like, My God, 100%.
Like, you needed somebody truly on your side that was and his mom, his mom most recently, just like got really upset.

Speaker 5 Like, we're super close with Ty's mom, and she got super upset and she just apologized. She said, I am so sorry that I wasn't educated enough

Speaker 5 to not know that adoption wasn't the only choice either. And she's, she, she, you can tell she's regretful about that.

Speaker 4 I can see it, yeah, in her face and stuff.

Speaker 5 That sucks because we're all years out of it and now we know. So it's like, if we would have known, not what we know, you know? And so you're right, we did.

Speaker 5 We deserved to have adults, you know, looking out for me after we gave.

Speaker 4 We never even watched it, so we can't, I don't even know. We never watched it.
The 16 year pregnancy. We only watched it once when we were young.

Speaker 6 Oh, I can understand. And we never watched it ever again.

Speaker 4 So I can only imagine what it's like after knowing everything now and going back and watching it. It's probably a whole different thing.

Speaker 6 It's hard. It's hard to watch.
I mean, it's hard for me to watch.

Speaker 4 Well, yeah, because now you know you're a team on historian. So now you're going back.

Speaker 4 You know, it's like, it's wild. Yeah, it gives a different thing.

Speaker 5 And the fact of the matter, too, is like, literally, after placing Carly for adoption, everybody saw what I was going back home to. All the adults in my life saw what I was going back home to.

Speaker 5 There needs to be more resources for the birth parents and education education because I was just sent back into the chaos and actually was 10 times worse than what it was.

Speaker 4 Because now they're all attacking you and it's like it was horrible.

Speaker 5 So I think that's what I would just, yeah, I would love to just talk and educate them and give them all the facts and they'd probably think I'm annoying after a while because I'd be like,

Speaker 4 read this book.

Speaker 6 No, but good for you for using your platform for the good because people need it.

Speaker 4 Yeah, trying. Well, I hopefully now that, and you have a platform too, so hopefully now with new information, you go on your platform and say, hey,

Speaker 4 adopt these.

Speaker 5 I learned more, or I heard more, or and this is what I still believe, and this is what I changed opinions.

Speaker 4 Yeah, the whole goal is not to persuade you differently. No, I get it.
I just wanted to hear opposing viewpoints, and then obviously the information.

Speaker 6 I think we both were able to see where each other were coming from.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And so, you know, I just really thank you for taking the time.

Speaker 6 Thank you for having me. This is great.

Speaker 4 No, no, this is great for you. You're about to blow up now.

Speaker 5 But I think, but I think even in the future, I think there's other conversations we can have about different things. Yeah.

Speaker 6 I mean, addiction.

Speaker 4 I mean, I really want to have you back on that.

Speaker 4 I would love to have you back on and kind of dive deeper into it. We could even do it via a Zoom type of app and stuff, too, from home.

Speaker 5 And I just really appreciate your, you know, your opinions and your thoughts and your inputs on the situation. And just thank you for coming.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 Thanks for coming on Kate and Ty Break It Down. Thank you.

Speaker 5 And remember to stay curious.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And where can everybody, like, where can they find you?

Speaker 6 What's your Jordi Cray on all social media?

Speaker 4 Awesome, perfect. Awesome, great.
Thank you.

Speaker 4 Thanks, Jordy. It's great.