Jon Cryer | Club Random with Bill Maher

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Chuck said you need to get help. Charlie said, no, I'm not going to.
He said, well, no, he know what he did with us? He said, I'm going to do it for a week. The woke people that you're really mad at, it's me.
I want to put that face on it. That's the, this is the one.
John, why hello?

How are you?

Why hello? How are you? Why hello? Because I asked you. That's right.
It was meant as just like a placeholder. Like, why, comma, hello.
Like that. Well, I feel like you've been dodging me.
Oh, really? Oh, really? Well, I mean, I just I don't feel like that. Because, you know, I feel like we've both been in Hollywood a long time.
I mean, I got here in the late 40s. You too, right? Yes, I remember back in the silent era.
You had an apartment with Bob Mitchum for a while. Yes, for a while.
But he did way too much. I can't handle this.
Actually, this actually he was busted for marijuana i'm sure you know all kinds of that was very rare that was in 1948 robert mitchum was busted for marijuana yeah that was not something that you ever saw i mean i wasn't alive yeah for the kids out there they're like oh yes probably took that who's this bob mitchum guy 1948 that's That's about right for these guys. They're like, oh, they probably took that on Facebook.
Who's this Bob Mitchum guy? 1948, that's about right for these guys. They're like 100.
Why back in my day? No, I just feel like we've both been here a long time, and yet our paths never cross. Our paths did cross.
Like I say, we're good friends. On this here show, Politically Incorrect, which I did a couple of times.
Right. Well, okay.
That does not count, I guess, for you. It meant nothing, apparently.
Apparently, it was a meaningless time. Well, that was the 90s.
We were actually alive in the 90s, kids, and working, apparently. Yes.
But, you know, first of all, the 90s is a long time ago, and we did 2,000 shows. That was a lot.

Yeah.

Five shows a night,

nine years.

That's a lot of shows.

That's a lot of people yammering about their politics.

I mean...

It all blends into this

political mush

for a while, I'm sure.

I mean, time plus

like 2,000 shows

times four people on each show, that's 8,000 people.

Yeah.

But what was your memory of it?

Were you happy with it?

Oh, yeah.

I had a good time.

I had a good time.

I vaguely remember you doing well.

Yes.

I remember one older woman who was very anti-immigration, and I remember she drove me batty. But I feel like I zinged her a couple of times.
I was like, you're an old lady. I think that was the height of my repartee.
Yeah, but who looks stupid now? Yes, exactly. I mean, I think the whole country, even unless you're like stupid woke, I hope you're not, but it is Hollywood.
I'm somewhat stupidly woke. Okay.
The whole country was like, I mean, I think the biggest issue for the election, one of the biggest ones was Democrats pointlessly, totally just punted on immigration and let anybody who wanted to walk in for three and a half years did. And, you know.
I think they would probably disagree that people walking in probably felt like it was a little harder. No, no.
No, actually, actually, there's a great 60 minutes piece on it where the border, I mean, you don't get 8 million people here by making it difficult um but there's watch they just i mean

you see they're walking through in that water guys are just watching them do it they're just watching them walk past you never saw that i did not see that see that doesn't get in the liberal media that's the problem is the bubbles we live in so 60 minutes arguably is the liberal media So I don't think that that.

Right.

But 60 Minutes is still a show that I think, you know, can not as consistent as it used to, but they do things like that. They also did a great piece some years ago about a woman in London who was in the Muslim neighborhoods.
And, you know, they're screaming at her because she's wearing a skirt and stuff like that. And, you know, the point of it was, you know, there are places in Western civilizations that are, like, run not by Western standards.
And that doesn't mean they're just different. Well, yeah, but I mean, there are cultural enclaves everywhere.
Right. But we should agree that women should be able to wear what they want.
Yes. If you don't agree with that, then you're not a liberal to begin with.
Well, yes. Call me a crazy liberal, but I think women should have freedom.
I agree as well. Okay.
I agree as well. But they don't in these neighborhoods.
It was the 60 Min was the 60 minutes piece that they did one could argue that that women don't have the freedom to dress where they are in dress how they want to dress in many places they used to get cat called all the time they used to you know there was used to well they we're talking about now well they're used to a lot of shit used to happen but what's going on now in world? Would you really want to have your wife live in Gaza or any place? A war-torn strip of desert? No, even before the war where she would have to cover up? Well, again, I don't live there. It's not my culture.
And you won't judge it? I'm not going to judge it, no. But again, this is not a- That's crazy woke to me.
Okay. That's where it all went off the rails.
When we became so tolerant that we tolerate intolerance. I mean, you would never allow something like that to happen in this country.
If they proposed a law tomorrow at the LA City Council, women have to cover their face when they go out. I assume you'd be against that.
Well, yes, I would. But again, you know, there are, there are all, you know, again, this is a long, long subject that, that, you know.
We stumbled onto. We stumbled onto, exactly.
And, you know, I, I, I also, you know, this was started with immigration, which, you know, I don't feel like demonizing immigrants and migrants and saying that you want to deport millions of people. I think the history of mass deportations is horrifying.
But we weren't talking about deportations. Of course, that's horrifying.
Yes. And an overcorrection.
What we were talking about was letting Democrats too many people in to begin with. But too many people and well, again, this is going to be a long conversation that we probably, is this how you want to spend your time?

I never have any plan. You did 2,000 episodes of Politically Incorrect, and you're still going down this.
I never have any plan for this show. Okay.
Plainly. Yes, clearly.
Clearly. um so yeah uh if you don't want to talk about politics at all, I shouldn't because I really started this podcast to get away from it.
So you're right. I kind of fucked up.
Yes. But I don't know.
Sometimes people say things that trigger me. And, of course, we just had the election.
And I feel like my conscience is very clear. I warned everybody about Trump.
And then I warned them about what would get him reelected, which was stupid wokeness, which is what got him reelected. So I feel my conscience is very clear that I told you and I told you and I told you and I lost fans for it.
You know, lots of the super woke that like I'm, I'm not woke enough for them. Yeah, but like, I think I had it right.
Like, that kind of stuff is what lost the election for the Democrats. It's in all.
Maybe part of it. I don't know.
I think a lot. They have polling on it.
Well, I think it's inflation. I think Americans hate inflation.
They hate inflation. They hate riots.
And they hate black women. And they hate trans people god john we're not gonna they just spent hundreds of millions they don't hate black trans people and and that's disgusting yeah we shouldn't talk politics okay we shouldn't i mean great i don't i don't have to and this you know mean, I have this kind of relationship with people on the right also who like, like, yeah, it's just going to take so long to even have this discussion.
And I, I, like, I want, just like I would like to deprogram them, I feel like there's things that don't get in your bubble on the left that I would love to deprogram, but it's probably not the place to do it. Yeah.
But, you know. You can try.
If that's how you want to spend your leisure hours. No, I mean.
Deprogramming ducky. There's a spinoff.
There's a spinoff. But I feel like the immigration argument gets sidetracked because people just assume that there's a lot of generalizations about immigrants that dehumanize them and are untrue.
You are mad that they let that many immigrants in because you think they, what, increase crime? What? Because they don't. Because they decrease they they decrease wages well no they don't there's a whole bunch of of arguments that that anti-immigration people make and you say okay democrats left i'm not an anti-immigration people okay so you say what i said well wait a minute okay so you're the one saying democrats are letting in immigrants and you know they just.
Okay. You're absolutely right.
Immigration did go up during those years. Well, asylum.
They changed the definition of asylum. And they immediately reversed Trump's stay in Mexico or wait in Mexico or something.
He had a different policy. Chill out in Mexico.
I mean, chill out in Mexico. Yes.
Just fucking chill, man. Wait there.
And we were still, you know, letting in as we should. We are a nation of immigrants and we need immigrants.
There you go. But most Americans felt, including lots of Democrats and people of color, and he won the Latino vote by half.
You know, come on, man. Like, at a certain point, everybody was around the idea that, okay, immigration, fine, but it has to be somewhat orderly.
And not anyone who— Yes, and again— And asylum had a certain specific meaning, which went up in the air. They overcorrected.
You know, you could be right. I don't know.
Yeah. But I also feel like, obviously, you can say Democrats took too long to address it, but then they did.
And Trump, of course, killed it. So he doesn't care about that.
And again, you've been outspoken. That's true, too.
And I appreciate that, by the way, that you were being outspoken. I appreciate that you lost fans.
You know what? They needed more free time. It's better that they don't watch your show.
It actually is. I'm sorry? It actually is.
Because, you know, here's how I know they changed and not me. It used to be the conservatives, the Jerry Falwell types, who you would do a stick-up-their-ass joke about.

Now it's the woke. They're the ones with the stick-up-their-ass.
They're the ones who don't have a sense of humor. They're the ones who are too sensitive.
They're the ones, you know, marching for Hamas, doing things like that. Again, I think conflating people marching for, you know, the IDF carpet bombing is different than marching for Hamas.
And yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization. They're a mafia organization.
I do not support them in any way. Well, common ground.
They're going to be saying, wow, Ducky is not on our side. This is crushing to our movement.
We've lost Ducky. But my point being that, you know, conflating, you know, those two.
And obviously there are outrages on the right and there are outrages on the left. And the right-wing media ecosystem, you know, is just a constant outrage engine.
Constant. Constant.
And that is very pernicious to America, to having a nation.

So I was only watching MSNBC. Not as bad.
I mean, the right wing is definitely more dangerous because they don't believe in conceding elections. Yes, exactly.
We are already past what I called, even before we won the first time, a slow-moving coup. Because when one side concedes, as the Democrats just did, and one side we know would not, you're already past democracy.
You are already. I mean, they make it sound like, oh, you know, we had a smooth election.
Yeah, smooth when they win. That's not good enough for me.
It has to be smooth when whoever wins. Yes, I agree.

So I have this in perspective. I think so.
But what drives them crazy, the reason why they are willing to do these basically traitorous, extra constitutional things like not concede elections is because they think the left is so crazy that whatever they have to do to retain power is worth it. Because if the left takes over, they will destroy life as we know it.
I don't think that's true. But when you see some of the things that the left has championed lately, you do wonder.
and like I said on my show last week, you lost a crazy contest to an actual crazy person. Okay, that's funny, but I disagree.
That he's a crazy person. No, you're right.
I agree that he's crazy. And they lost the contest.
And you're right. And they lost the contest.
So yeah, it's funny and you're right. But but I'm going to reel that back in just because, uh, you know,

it's interesting and you're right. But I'm going to reel that back in just because.
You know, it's interesting to watch you having seen you so much on television that you like. I'm not saying you didn't need the script, but I see that you just, you know, you just are funny, like, with the timing and the thing, even without a script.
Oh, well, thank you. And you too.
But that's all I have. I'm not an actor.
Ah, got it. See, I never have a script, except the one I write.
And it's not this kind of script. And actors are not, it's not in the job requirement to actually be funny.
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So be sure to check the site for details, you know, but you know, you just have that thing, you know, the way you, you play and then... Well, that's kind of you to say.
No, I'm sure that's why you've had the career you've had. I've been lucky and had a lot of great, great experiences.
And this is, you know, it's with the industry sort of figuring out what it is again, you know, it makes me grateful for all the opportunities I've had. I think you were lucky being born the person you were who had that timing.
Yes. And that quick mind.
That was the lucky part. I don't think the career itself was lucky.
I think know show business is full of bullshit but i've always thought the cream rises to the top well there's a lot of bullshit in the middle and anyone can be a success for two years or something but careers that last that doesn't happen unless there's something that you know is connecting and they're hitting the ball you know they're consistently hitting well thank you thank you and i and i i've loved i've loved the vast majority of it um this is the down slide right right here on this show this is the moment that it's all curdling it was doing i was doing great up until this moment.

No, I'm actually enjoying myself a great deal. Hey, we can cut all the political part out of it if you want.
Oh, no, whatever you're comfortable with. I'm happy to talk.
Actually, one of the reasons that I'm happy to talk about it, A, is it's a terrifying time in our history um you know unfortunately it is the you know the the supreme court has removed the guardrails in a terrifying way um now the republicans don't have there's no meaningful resistance you know there was in the first term there was there was a certain normalcy bias that they had but um i i gutted the left like a fish last week. Thanks.
Some of the woke people who are no longer fans would have hated it. Okay.
Zillions of other people loved it because they deserved it. But I'm just bringing this up to say the ending concluding remarks after I told them that the Democratic Party had turned into a Portlandia sketch.
Again, I felt like they tacked to the right quite a bit in this. They tacked right on immigration.
Because you're a Hollywood in the bubble, blue sky. Dude, you're a man of the people, Bill? Is that it? Much more.
Oh, really? you're part of you're part of the hollywood community that is embraced i am not uh-huh and that's i disagree we embrace you no i i've almost literally embraced you when you came in the room i i i don't uh i don't agree i do not agree we won't get off on that. Okay.
But we will get off. Produced by Chuck Lorre.
Actually, I'm not saying it's going to happen, but this is also a show. Because what do you want on a show? Conflict.
Yeah. Absolutely.
I'll take it. You did it like where you were, you know, with Pussyhound Guy.
Sure. You could call him that.
And that may be why you and I, our paths never crossed. Because I was more Charlie Sheen for many years.
Oh, really? Well, I mean, never got married. You're married.
Yes. No kids.
You know, I would be out at places you probably weren't out at. at probably not although i think i caught you out of the corner of my eye at one of diddy's freak clubs well you know but you were big i had to had to swing by no i never met the man i wish him the best diddy uh you never met him i've never met him uh yeah i i consider myself lucky never Never met Jeffrey Epstein either.
Wouldn't it be funny if he got out of prison and I said, how was it in there? He said, you know, the only thing that saved me was we watched reruns of Two and a Half Men every night. Yeah, that would.
Sure Knight told me politically incorrect. Really? He watched it every night in prison.
Huh. And I'm guessing it's a communal TV.
Yeah, yeah. It's like, who gets to rule? I know, who gets to pick that? Well, I'm guessing Suge Knight probably had more cred.
Yes, you're right. He probably has more cred.
But you and I are in a prison movie, I think. That's what the public is yearning for.
And we're like, we're having a gun battle. We're doing that thing in movies where they do, where they have snappy dialogue during a gun battle.
Yes, it's poop, poop. Listen, man, it's a Butch and Sundance moment.
Who are those guys? Yes, that's what American needs. You know, like bad boys, you know, like, wow, wow.
I told you not to talk to my sister. Really in the middle of the gunfight.
I'm sure when you're afraid for your life, that's when the quips really, really kick in. I'm sure the Noel Coward in you comes out at that moment.
Exactly. But no, I guess our Hollywood paths did not cross.
But, you know, again, I enjoyed coming on your show. And I do, you know, I understand why a lot of actors don't want to talk about politics.
I get it. You know, because as an artist, you want people to just enjoy your art, you know.
And I still enjoy, there's plenty of people whose politics I strongly disagree with, but I still enjoy their art. I mean, there's John Boyd movies that I will love till the day I die because he's an amazing actor, you know.
And he's not a monster. And he's not a monster.
No, I know him, actually. I mean, I've met him.
I'm all for trying to. He's always asking about my mom, you know, in a nice way.
Don't worry. I'm not casting aspersions.
He was like, how's your mother? I was like, oh, well, John, she's fine. But anyway, I apologize.
No, but just finishing what I was saying before about, yes, I gutted them, but only so I could get to the end where I said, I'm mad at the Democrats because the issues that are important to me, because that's always a big thing in elections, what issues are important to Bill Mark, to you, the voter? My issues are democracy and the environment. And now, because the Democrats did what I told them not to do and went to crazy town way too often now you blew it you blew it you blew it i did not go ahead everything well so i have no one to champion and defend my issues but i would say i would say all of the wokeness that outraged you so much was republican framing was right-wing media framing.
Oh, God. Again, again, yes.

That's not the case. No.
Yes, that is the case. It's not framing.
That is the case, Bill Maher. I do this for a living.
Okay. I have a whole staff to vet this.
I'm very suspicious of everything, from the left or the right. So, if you're telling me that I've been hoodwinked.

Oh, no, I'm telling you you've been hoodwinked.

I haven't been. I think everybody deals with framing in different ways.

You can either deal with the framing and say, no, I'm afraid you're wrong, which I've seen you do.

You know, you say you can, you know.

Or you can say, wait, I don't, but I don't even believe in the framing.

I disagree with the whole framing of the question.

I believe in facts.

I believe, for example, we're going to get into this now. Okay.
But like America is the only country that does transgender policy the way we do now. We used to be closer to Sweden.
I'm sorry, you got to be more specific. kids

can

you know, what do you call them? Gender affirmation can, okay, have the operation. Okay, you understand, first of all, that the biggest, the most prevalent gender-affirming surgery is breast removal, tissue removal for cisgender male boys.
Okay. But we're not talking about that.
Okay. But the reason I'm bringing it up is because if people are okay with, you know, people are always saying we don't want young people making those decisions for, you know, lifelong decisions when they're still very young.
I mean, that seems to be what people are- Well, that's where Europe, where all the liberal countries that we used to be aligned with on this issue a few years ago, we are not. I'm just saying, let's not even get into the details.
Let's just get into the fact. Just start with the fact that America does this in a way nobody else does.
That doesn't mean, I'm not saying it's necessarily definitely wrong, although I do think it is. But no other country does self-diagnosis by children, no age limit.
That's not what's occurring. That is what is occurring.
It's not occurring. And by the way, the thing you're talking about is a thing called the Dutch Protocol, which obviously started in Holland.
Started, started in Holland. Yes, I'm familiar.
Yes, okay. So, you're saying the U.S.
doesn't use the things that Europe does, but they do. Which they abandoned.
Well, no, they did not abandon it. Yeah, they did.
And we can argue about the Cass Review as well. I'm aware of it.
Right. Yes, which is conclusions did not match its own data but okay um we'll talk about that later if you're if you're if you're open to that's true but okay but see that's what i'm saying is the the truth is in the weeds dude and for the audience too in the weeds okay i mean it's uh and and maybe for me at this point because I don't have the Cass report right in my mind, many people are saying, what is that?

A British woman who is a pediatrician and also was, this was her field of study. There was a big controversy about the NHS.
She did a report. NHS, yes, about the NHS, transgender care.
And unfortunately, you know, the NHS is under a lot of scrutiny for many things because, you know, national health care is often very controversial. Because people have to prioritize very specific care for specific people.
And it's hard to do that in a governmental way. um but uh the there was a lot of people saying that uh kids who were going through gender dysphoria were not getting enough care um before they were making lifelong decisions and that's a concern absolutely um but the report said that they were actually getting enough care but the the they as a society were were saying using it as a way to say uh uh we don't want this to even be a possibility for people under 18 and um so at any rate right and that's too far and and like it's a shame that we can't ever just meet in the middle of what's common sense.
Like Trump, I see they're not letting somebody use the bathroom.

Exactly.

I mean, it's like, can we just not do stupid on either side?

What I'm saying is that parents who have kids who are going through severe gender dysphoria have very limited options to begin with.

And they are usually trying to think about the survival of their child. And so limiting what they have access to when there actually is an enormous amount of statistical evidence that supported the Dutch protocols, I think it's wrong to limit their

to

for that supported the Dutch protocols, um, uh, limit, I think it's wrong to limit their, uh, uh, their, uh, to, to, for government to limit what they feel is the appropriate medical treatment. There are cases where it is appropriate, I think.
Okay. Okay.
I think this is the standard liberal position. And then there's like the people who won't admit that some of this is social contagion.
Some of this is just a TikTok trend that got out of hand. I don't agree.
And that's okay. And that's what friends are for.
Okay. To be able to come to it and go, okay, we've elucidated our points enough.
People get where we're coming from. And they just, you know, they'll, trust me, in this town, everybody, you'll be the big champion.
You own Bill Moore because they just want to agree with you. And my take on this, just as like super friend to friend now, is just like the people in this town, they just want to be warriors, social justice warriors.
So they're just always looking for a cause. And it's so much more often about them than the cause itself.
Not that they're not sincere about stuff. But like what bugs Dave Chappelle so much about the trans thing? I think it's the fact that they want to make it the social justice issue of their generation.
And it just doesn't compare to other ones. It's important.
It's an issue. I think it's great we live in a time when trans people can be respected and protected, but you're asking too much often to rewrite the idea that when someone is born, there is a default setting for humans, male and female.
Not everyone is. Now, a real conservative would say, no, everyone is.
I would never say that. But there are chromosomal spectrums.
There's a default setting. But then there's a whole other section.
And that's great. And we should protect those people.
But don't pretend there isn't also a default setting. And you can't rewrite the world so that every baby is just a jump ball.
Oh, it could be anything. No, if it's got a dick, it's probably a boy.
And if it's not, we'll deal with that in a compassionate way. But we'll also be apprised of the idea that children don't know shit about anything.
Yes, sometimes it is obvious and we should address it that way. But, I mean, kids, Christ almighty.
I mean, the idea that I would, as a child, would have had to have dealt with something like this. Well, again, the people that go through it don't say, this is the life I want.
No parent wants to be in the midst of those choices. It's terrifying.
Some kids these days actually just do want to be trans. I don't agree.

It's cooler, John.

I don't agree.

It's a thing.

Nope.

I don't agree.

Oh, come on.

I don't agree with Bill Maher.

I know.

That's the name of the show tonight.

Well, your eyes are not open to that, I think.

Well, okay.

There are some kids, especially,

why is it like so much more prevalent,

like here than Indiana?

Well.

Are they suppressing it there?

Maybe a little.

Yeah, there's a societal suppression, but it's like left-handedism. Left-handed, being left-handed was suppressed for, you know, for thousands of years amongst human beings.
But once they, it was, you know, apparently in the 30s, scientists basically said there's no, left-handedness doesn't actually do anything bad. Right.
Left-handedness shot up. People just stopped training themselves to be right-handed.
And this has happened societally before, and that's the closest analog that I can think of. Okay, but I think the numbers are faulty in that one.
I mean, how many people are left-handed? 15%? Something like that? Yeah, it went from like 8% to 15%. 15% of us are born in the wrong body? I don't know.
But I do believe that parents who are dealing with that situation in their child need to be able to make those decisions. I don't think it's as high as 15%.
It is a certain percent. Statistician in Bill Maher shows up.
But numbers matter. No, they do.
Numbers matter.

But what bothers me is that this becomes an issue to demonize people. But I'm not demonizing.
I'm not saying you are. But I'm saying the right-wing framing is, and it often starts with danger to your children, danger to your women.
You know, the trans people are going in your bathroom. And of course, by the way, these bills that are in Congress right now are to force trans women into men's bathroom.

Also force trans men into women's bathroom.

And these, you know, I don't think Nancy Mace really gets that she's inviting a bunch of trans men into her bathroom. I don't think she gets that.
It's horrible. It's horrible.
And I agree with all that. But again, the demonization that they spent hundreds of millions of dollars demonizing trans people was fucking loathsome.
That's politics, sweetheart. No, it's not.
You give them an opening. Excuse me.
You give them an opening like people deserve respect. Yeah, that's the opening.
Oh, God. Deprogrammer, please come in soon.
Okay. Can we get the deprogrammer? I want to deprogram you.
You're doing a bad job. You do this for a living.
Here's what she would not condemn. She had said, when they asked her, are you for operations in prisons, taxpayer paid in prisons for prisoners who want to transition? Transition.
Okay. She just said, I'll follow the law.
She wouldn't say, no, you know what? I said that in 2019. That goes too far.
Well, except that that was- Maybe she would have been somewhat in the race if she said something like that. But again, this happens.
As you said, the statistical amount of trans people is so small. And this happens on so few occasions.
And this is statistically meaningless. You just said it was 15%.
No, but even, I didn't say that. You said it.
You're the, I said, I said, I'm talking about left-handedness. But I said, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know the statistics. But just from my point.
From just looking around the world, you don't think 15% is a little high for that? Yeah, it might be.

Again, I'd be guessing.

But see, here's the thing. You're right about a lot of this, what the right does demonize.
Yes, and that's horrifying. Oh, God.
It's politics. Of course, you have to assume that the other side is going to use your vulnerable points.
But here's what the left demonizes. they would take my conversation with you right now, which is in no way illiberal, and say, I'm some sort of bigot.
Because in the left's view, the far left anyway, any just questioning of this is a mic drop. Oh, you're a bigot.
I mean, it happened on CNN recently. Like, I will not sit here and hear someone called a boy, you know, and they're talking about someone who trans.
But, you know, it's like we're so pure. We know everything.
That's the that's the given. So any discussion of this is bigotry to begin with.
And that's not where we are with this issue. Well, I'll tell you, I can tell you why they feel like that, if it helps you.
They feel like that because when their very capability of being a person is questioned, when just the idea that they exist is questioned. Agreed.
They are dehumanized. And they say that it's bigotry.
Now, again, somebody calling you a bigot, you know, you can take offense and get angry at that. I do.
Okay. You know, but again, you're fine.
Somebody called you a bigot. People call me all kinds of awful things.
Really? You know? What do they call you?

Who could be mad at you?

People are mad at me.

You're mad at me.

No, you're not mad at me.

I'm not mad at you.

I actually admire you for engaging.

Oh, well, happy to.

You didn't have to.

No, I didn't.

It's true.

What the fuck am I doing here?

It's kind of fun.

It's fun to let it out, isn't it?

Yeah, you know.

Yeah, you know, I have, you know, the trans people in my life,

Thank you. It's fun to let it out, isn't it? Yeah, you know, yeah.
I have, you know, the trans people in my life feel at this point really frightened. Who are the trans people in your life, if I may ask? Well, frankly, that's my own business.
Okay, that's fine. But, you know, it is, they're in a place where they're personally terrified right now, because not only was, you know, this election was the outrage cycle of this of this particular election targeted them.
But it was accepted and people, you know, accept that. It's like, OK, yeah, we dehumanize them.
It was another reason why the Democrats shouldn't have blown it. Well, I, you know, accept that.
It's like, okay, yeah, we dehumanized them. It was politics.
Well, another reason why the Democrats shouldn't have blown it. Well, I, you know, again, you can blame them all you want.
I believe, again, that there is a worldwide reaction to the inflation bump after COVID. Everybody, as I said, Americans hate inflation.
You keep telling yourself that, and you'll lose the next one, too. And lose i'm not running but okay no well i mean the party that we but it's funny we voted for the same person yes we you know are generally supportive of the same party we just have very different views on like how to deal with that yeah yeah we do but But again i felt like um the the democrats in the very limited amount of time they had to to fight this election uh did cant to the right a lot you know um time has nothing to do with it you could do it in two weeks if anything she had too much time she was doing good for the first two months, the joy she had.
And then it just, you know, it's so antiquated, this idea that people need more than, she had 107 days. It would have been better if she had seven.
Other countries don't take 100 days. I will 100% agree with you that it takes way too long and it's ridiculous.
We get it. We get it quickly.
You know, it's not like we have to go and see them at the end of a train station where they were doing a whistle. You know, they'll remember that.
It's not 1910. The back of the train.
Or Lincoln, you know, having to get, that must have been like a big thing. Going on a tour.
Are you going to go to see Garfield Saturday? It's going to be in the back of a train. Yes, he's going to be yelling from the back of a train.

I hope, I think he said something that I agree with.

I don't know.

I don't know what he said.

You must have done a Western.

I have never done, oh, well, I did sort of a punk Western,

but it was a modern day Western, so it doesn't really count.

You could redo the Don Knotts movies.

I have been approached by that. I've been approaching the incredible Mr.
Limpet. I swear to God.
You are born. No, really.
I got nothing but respect for Don Knotts. Don Knotts was a master.
He was a fucking master. I think he was great.
I could not agree more. And the movies, which I think are not really i don't know why i never see one on you know the channels but as a kid i mr uh limpid and there's some chicken chicken in the west he was a coward in the old west yes there you go okay i think i think This is like...
Yeah, you know, God bless him.

He left... in the old west yes there you go okay i think i think you're this is like i yeah you know i i god bless him he was he's he left behind a wonderful body of work didn't he win like the emmy like eight years in a row as barney five something like that it was like you know you know yeah yeah yeah no he's he's a genius absolutely absolutely What were the other ones like that that you look up to? Jack Lemmon, I thought, was pretty amazing.
Yeah. Jack Lemmon could do serious drama.
And he could also be the high-energy kind of fun. Yeah.
You obviously saved the tiger. Yeah.
Yes. Now, that's a movie.
Yeah movie yeah that's a 70s movie and i mean that as a compliment 70s 70s was a golden era i mean taking a pelham still was one of the taking a day yeah they redid it with denzel it was good but not as good no no the sneeze at the end yes no what was great about taking a pelham is it's york city in 1974 whatever and every single new yorker is a wise ass every single one and it's true it's fucking true that's how everybody was in 1974 you think they're different in new york now i think no my mom's still there actually she's oh really she's 89 still living on the up west side of Manhattan. I lived on the west side of Manhattan when I was doing Politically Incorrect.
Oh, really? First, I lived on the east side in a residential hotel across from Smith and Walensky's Plaza 50. Oh, sure.
Okay. Sure? Smith and Walensky's.
Sure,ky. Okay.
Walensky's. Then I lived on 70th in this building that was kind of distinctive.
It had a name for it. All this Egyptian art on the walls or something.
Anyway, 70th and Broadway. But New York and I never got along.
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I grew up there.
I'm born'm i'm born on mid-born i was just there i played the beacon i mean i love it for a weekend but like living there i found to be tough it's not for everybody it's not for everybody first of all you just have to like or be okay with living in buildings it's okay well that's not most of human history of people have lived in buildings, Bill. No, that's not most of human history.

People have lived in buildings, Bill.

No, they haven't.

They lived in single dwellings.

Oh, you mean in multiple dwellings.

Single dwellings.

Like, I don't live in a building.

I live next door.

But I like living in a...

I like apartment living.

The best thing about apartment living, and I'm just...

Is superintendents.

Is just guys who just, you just call up and say, get in here because something has gone horribly wrong. You know, and that you don't have in your single family home.
You don't, there's not somebody you can, well, maybe yours. The last time I had a super is when I lived on 8th Avenue in New York And it was not as you portray it.

It was not the dream service situation that I'm throwing out there. I used to get a knock down the door.
Dilsen. He would come in, and I believe he was Colombian, and he had some, he was running some weird shit out of the building.

And I mean, could you get him to do something?

Yes.

But I mean, this was on 8th Avenue.

You know, it was, you sound like you lived in a nicer sort of building where the super was, I don't know.

No, I mean, no, my mom, when I was growing up on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, it was really, it was not a great neighborhood at the time. It has since become very gentrified.
But at the time, no, it was, we had, you know, we had heroin addicts coming in and stealing our fixtures. They would steal the, you know, the whatever lamps there were on the walls and stuff.
We had, you know, bulletproof glass in the lobby and stuff. Really? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't the Wild West.
I mean, the closest thing to the Wild West was we had a neighbor, Mr. Green, who, Mr.
Green used to come by and he would bring oxtail soup for my mother. He was very nice, bald gentleman.
And he goes, well, is your mother around? Well, I brought some oxtail soup. Well, I do not know, but Mr.
Green had a secret double life. One night, we're in the house, and we hear a pop, pop.
And somebody runs down the stairs, and my mom was like, what the fuck happened? And it turns out Mr. Green had, he liked to partake of ladies of the evening.
God bless him, Mr. Green.
But this one particular lady of the evening had shown up, but then showed up with her boyfriend, who proceeded to tie up Mr. Green.
Boyfriend? Yes. Yes.
I imagine. You know, again, I'm a romantic.
I prefer to see it as just a love relationship. It is of sorts.
Of sorts. At any rate, he tied up Mr.
Green and started to ransack his house. The pimp did? The pimp did.
Wow. Tied him up next to his bed.
But Mr. Green reached under his bed and found a pistol aimed from the hip.
Swear to God, from the hip,

because Mr. Green was tied up.

Just like in a movie.

Just like in a movie,

and shot the guy in the head,

between the fucking eyes.

And the next time when he came over with the oxtail soup,

he insisted I come over to the house

so he could show me where the bullets ricocheted.

So that was my building growing up.

But mostly it was nice.

If you called the police, would Kojak come over?

Just because of the resemblance.

No, no, I'm just saying.

But the 70s.

Kojak was the great 70s.

Do you remember Kojak?

Yes, Tully Savalas.

Who loves you, baby?

He was famous for having a lollipop.

That was Tully Savalas' thing. I don't think they should redo that one.
That was a great character. Maybe it's time.
No. Shave the beard.
Come on. You're not Kojak.
I don't have to. Kojak ain't woke.
Let me tell you, bro. Maybe not.
Kojak ain't woke. Yes, I'll do some research.
Kojak is the guy who's up to the judge.

Yeah, you see the defendants, and I see their victims. I got to get the scum off the street.
Yes, that was true. The 70s was the scum off the street.
But it was also Serpico and, you know, there was, yeah, it was also, it was an interestingly grungy, awful period. Whenever I see period movies about the 70s, I'm like, there's not enough litter.
We need more litter. I don't buy it until the litter is fucking a foot deep.
But it is. Oh, man.
That's good corn. The reason I came on this podcast, besides that I enjoy your work a lot.
I'm sorry. I must plug.
Please. It is actually relevant.
Please. Because basically, I've got a podcast that I produced.
I'm not in it, but I produced it that is coming out called The Man Who Calculated Death. And it is an insane story that absolutely fell in my lap.
The Man Who Calculated Death. Yes.
Interesting. Absolutely insane story.
Basically, I was at a dinner party with a friend of my wife.

And she, at one point, she knew I was a big fan of the space program.

The history of the space program is something I'm fascinated with.

And she said, oh, you know, my grandpa worked on the space program.

And I was like, oh, wow, that's awesome.

And she said, yeah.

And then before that, he worked for Hitler.

But anyway, no, no, no, no.

Really?

Just, yes.

She continued on the conversation. Werner Von Braun? Actually, he worked with Werner Von Braun because she had been on this.
You had a lot of Nazis. Yes.
She had been on this crazy journey because two years before we had this conversation, her mother had been diagnosed with cancer and literally on her deathbed, her mother admitted to her. She said, I've been writing a memoir for five years now, but I won't finish it because I'm dying.
Will you finish it for me? And so Suzanne had to, her name is Suzanne Rico. She was an anchor woman here in Los Angeles.
That's how my wife knew her. Suzanne had to go back through her family's history that she'd only kind of dimly been aware of and

discover that her grandfather actually was a guy named Robert Lesser, who was one of

Hitler's most important scientists.

He invented the V1, which was he and Wernher von Braun were in a race to make secret super

weapons for Hitler.

My mother was in London when those bombs fell on it.

Exactly.

And they terrorized London.

And so Suzanne basically had to go on this journey sort of rediscovering her family's history and understanding, you know, what the family went through to get through World War II. And, you know, Operation Paperclip, secretly bringing the Nazis to the United States and plopping them down.
That's what it was called? Operation Paperclip, yes. I never knew that.
Yes, it's a fascinating story.

Well, here's a moral question.

Okay.

And that probably for our show that we're going to do

called The Purist and the Pragmatist.

The Pragmatist would say,

bringing Nazis, ex-Nazis here to run our space program

was the right thing to do.

Yeah.

What does the purist say?

You agree with that?

The purist, well, you know, the argument at the time was, these were the good ones. The argument was, we need a space program before the Russians get one.
And Nazis know how to do it because Germans are smart and efficient. I always say this about Germans.
They're so efficient that when they turn their efficiency toward mass death, it was bad for death. But it's true.
It's not like their ambitions to wipe out people was any different than Genghis Khan or lots of other people. They had 20th century technology and they they just are so crazy efficient Germans and specific and detailed.
So when it was like, how do we kill all these Jews? It was like... Be efficient about it, I guess.
Did you see that movie, The Zone of... Zone of Interest, yes.
I did see that movie. The Zone of No zone of no interest yeah it was a little slow i will say what i got out of it no it was it was not bad but what i got out of it was a kind of a movie version of the famous saying from hannah arent the banality of evil yes it was and of course if you're showing banality in a movie, you're- It's a little slow.
You know, it could have used Chuck Lorre to punch it up a little. Oh, God.
It's just, you know, you come in and you're just like this bumbling guard from, you know, that, because you're- Well, Andy? If you don't know the story, this German family, and they're having this wonderful idyllic life in the Liebenstrom living space that Hitler wanted, but it's right next to Auschwitz. Yes.
Oh, darn. That's the only place that we could get a big enough place for the family.
Well, actually, it's interesting because that's what a big chunk of the podcast is about is a family, what happens to a family as authoritarianism gradually takes over their country. Where? I'm sorry, in Germany.
That's what the podcast is about. That's what the podcast is about.
In Germany. Yes, because it's about.
Like what year? Because Robert Lesser, the guy who it's about, the man who calculated death, he was a famous German pilot. He actually built his own planes that he flew and became a celebrity, actually.
And his family, he became an engineer. He invented the BF-109, which is probably the most famous fighter plane.
So the 40s. Yes.
So, yeah, this goes from the 20s. The war ends in 45.

Then we import the Nazis.

Yes.

He actually was in hiding for a couple of years after the war because he was sure he would be tried for war crimes.

But then the CIA found him, or rather the precursor to the CIA, the OSS.

Yes.

And brought him to the United States illegally at the time. Undocumented immigrants.
Yeah, we need— But it was interesting because the podcast goes into what exactly was he complicit in? What wasn't he complicit in? You know, some of the V1s were built at concentration camps.

Well, I would listen to that. That's interesting to me.
And Suzanne Rico did an amazing job.

So where and when can I hear this?

It is on Apple

Podcasts, As We Speak, Spotify.

Oh, it is right now. It's exclusive

to Wondery Plus, so if you

subscribe to Wondery Plus.

What is the title, one more time?

The Man Who Calculated Death. It's

clearly a catchy title. I'm the man who smoked pot, so don't hate me for the man who calculated This is probably not the optimum time to approach you about this particular time.
This is when I'm at my best.

I never drink all week.

I save it for this.

It's the joy of my life to be able to get to know somebody. It's usually not this contentious, but I don't.

that's okay but if it's okay with you it's okay with me it is yes because i love honesty and i love getting right to what do we really think and feel and and i also just love that we can

continue in fact okay he's him on me we're not that you know but we still have so much in common and can like each other and just go there's always going to be things about other people you're going to go i don't know why i can I can't believe they think that way. But, you know, it doesn't matter.
Again, I do want to compliment you, especially in the context of talking about the rise of authoritarianism, is you have been a very clear voice talking about the very specific issues that have arisen. Nobody was taking me seriously about Trump for a longest time.
And it was like obvious to me. This is someone who could never say, I lost.
I concede an election. He couldn't do, I do this in my act, but I'll just say it to you.
I don't want to be, you know, it's called an illegal spritz in comedy. But it is just the truth also, of course, because I don't really write jokes.
I just observe them. But when a football coach loses a game, football coaches, that's all their life is.
They have no other life. They all just live for it.
I mean, Bill Belichick now has a 23-year-old girlfriend. But trust me, for all the 40 years he was coaching he did not because

tom brady tom brady was his girlfriend so when they lose a game it is just the worst but they force themselves to walk across that field and put out their hand they seek out the lead the winning coach.

Nice game, Andy.

And that is what this man can never do with election. seek out the winning coach.
Nice game, Andy.

And that is what this man can never do with elections.

And, you know, he jokes about maybe after this one, you know.

And is it really a joke?

See, this is my thing with my friends on the right.

I keep saying to them, you guys say, your big theory is, he just says a lot of shit. Okay, we're going to put the says a lot of shit doctrine to the test.
Because that's not good enough for me. People who say shit usually do it.
Yeah. And, you know.
And I don't know that the people, a lot of people that voted for him heard some of the shit that he was saying. You know just yammers on with that word salad.
That's his superpower. I know, it is.
He's so all over the map about everything that nobody takes him literally about anything, which is the biggest advantage a politician could ever have. You don't really believe what I'm saying anyway.
You just trust me that I have the instincts of let's not live in crazy town and we won't get over there again. Okay.
Let's not live in John Crierville. It's fun in John Crierville.
All I can tell you. Is it? You think you have a fun life? Yeah, you probably do.
I have a you do. Yeah.
Yeah. And you've been married twice? Yes.
That's immediately what you go to. You're like, wait, you've been married twice, and you actually had fun? Wait a minute.
Wait, I'm sorry. I'm going to have to go through this a little bit.
Yes, I have been married twice. I have two kids.
From the same marriage? No, I had a son in my first marriage and another was my second. How long was the first marriage for? Four years.
Four years. That's about the right time for a start.
I've heard the term. I don't want to cast aspersions.
But I've heard people use the term start a marriage. It's not an aspersion on the person so much as that you're usually young when you do it, so you don't know enough about being a person.
Yeah, and sometimes you don't get married for great reasons, and that happens. I don't want to say it's nobody's fault because you did it.
So it's your fault. But at the same time, as you get older, things change.
And you saw the situation a certain way. And you said, OK, this is the best thing to do.
And sometimes it just wasn't. So, you know.
Yeah. I i mean when i think back at what i call the vulnerable years when i mean i did get engaged once when i was 29 and you know i you know always got my toe out of the trap but it was it almost yeah it almost happened a few years later and i would have been so unhappy and it would have fucked up everything i mean somehow i've done so many stupid things but somehow that load start like knowing that i am just not the kind of person who can be married i at least kept to that and that was correct but that's fair like so much else i would just like and i i always say to myself when i live my life over i'm sure i'm not going to do that because that was so stupid and i well interestingly i do think that there's a there is definitely a societal stigma to not getting married and to not having children that people you know people judge people.
I'm certainly judging you right now.

No, I'm not.

But I don't think it's fair.

I think people.

That was great.

Okay. I think, you know, if people know that about themselves

and, you know, it doesn't mean they're shallow.

It doesn't mean that they don't have empathy

or don't understand people or don't understand the human experience or whatever. I think those are ridiculous stigmas.

Thank you. I mean, it used to be much more, I think, of what you're describing now as far as what an outlier it was in society.
I remember on Politically Incorrect in the 90s, but again, this is the 90s, it was a little bit of a, you're a weirdo if you never got married.

I feel like it just became, no, so many more people are doing it, by the way. It's just a life choice.
and we do get more especially with social media and that fucking magic light box that transfixes everyone and addicts everyone and changes our brain chemistry, basically. It's harder to connect and stay married and that kind of stuff.
I mean, our attention spans just aren't there. You just can't pay attention to the same person for that long.
I mean, well, that is a big problem with marriage is that, I mean, that is the main problem. People can pretend it's other problems, but it's just hard to be with the same human being.
No one is that scintillating. I mean, I'm not.
I just don't think anyone is.

And that, to me, was a main reason why I never got married.

It's like, that model is not going to work.

So I'm going to find other models.

Literally.

We'll be right back.

Ba-boom.

Yes.

Although I have to say, I love being married to my wife.

It is.

That's another, just a different personality type.

I envy that to a degree because it simplifies life.

It does in some ways. And also just having somebody else to go through life with.

Just to go through the times that are great.

Like you're going to say, I just had the best interview with John Cryer to an empty house. No, full of models, I'm sure.
It's not exactly empty right this minute, but I live alone and like living alone. And I don't know if that is something that you could ever change about yourself.
You just have to recognize it about yourself. I did have that instinct early on.
It was the correct instinct. It just has everything to do, as everything does, with when your personality is formed in those first few, some would say months, but years of life, you know, you're pretty much, at least this is what the experts tell us, you know, set.
And I certainly have known parents who have said to me, you know right away what this kid is like, like one or two, like, oh, that's a wild one you know i don't have that experience but i think that's probably right so it's just kind of what your personality is i think politics is something that much more comes out of personality you know you're a republican yeah you're a republican because you're a square you know that's your personality you know not you but like but you know certainly in in the old days when i was a kid the republicans were more the country club types yeah well now they're they're the the fire breathing you know it's kind of switched up destroy the establishment let's you know the democrats got to be the elitist they're they're but again i don't agree with that. But that's what America.
I get it. I know you don't.
That's the right wing framing. But that's how.
It's not right wing framing. That's your indoctrination.
You've got to get out of MSNBC all day long. I don't watch on MSNBC.
Well, they're watching you. Oh, okay.
Because you're channeling me. Gosh.
I mean, that is not right-wing framing. Yes, it is.
That's just how America sees it. I'm sorry, but the pro-union party, the Democrats.
The Democrats are not seen as the working party anymore. They're not seen as it because of the right-wing framing, Bill Maher.
That is part of it. Of course.
Yes, that is part of it. But they're going to take advantage of that.

Yes, you're right. There is a certain amount of that that you would expect the opposition party to try to take advantage of.
But they give them these openings. Yeah, do I understand why Sherrod Brown, who's very pro-union, lost in Ohio, where there's a lot of union jobs.
some of that is because of propaganda, and some of that is because they just didn't see what his championing got for them. Well, and what I'm going to say is one more time, and you're going to get so annoyed with me, and inflation hit very hard, and their salaries did not catch up.
Boom. That's why.
You know what? Denzel has a great quote. I'm sorry? Quote.
Denzel Washington. If you're looking for an excuse, you'll find one.
Yes. So inflation wasn't good.
But if you want to look for excuses, you'll find it. If you want to look in the mirror and never win an election again, follow me if you want to live.
Well, again, I'm not saying there should not be introspection. I think the Democrats and the left are too much are the kings of introspection.
But no, I'm saying, obviously, we're in a different fight now because and by the way, I'm not a Democrat. I'm a registered independent.
Me too. Okay.
But I believe the fight now is to retain something of a democracy, something of a civil democracy. I am an independent, but I've never voted for the Republicans.
Oh, I have. So that's how we're different.
Who did you vote for? I'm not going to say. Okay, okay.
I am going to say it because it deserves some introspection on my part. It was Rudy Giuliani in New York City.
You don't have to be ashamed of it. He was a good mayor.
He did change how New Yorkers felt about the city. He took problems that people felt were just intractable in New York City and made people feel like, oh, we can do something about these things.
It's so funny because like— And that I'm grateful for. What he did was unwoke some bullshit that was going on in the city.
He was a Republican mayor. So it sounds like when these issues were in your life personally, you kind of liked it.
When the Rudy... Okay, that's easy to do, but engage with the actual thought, why it's wrong.
Engage with that. I'm sorry? I'm saying it sounds like when you were living in New York and these issues impacted you directly.
These issues impact me directly now and I'm not voting for Trump. No, because you're rich.
You're rich. So, okay.
And these issues impacted you directly. These issues impact me directly now, and I'm not voting for Trump.
No, because you're rich.

You're rich.

So you're not like on the street.

But Rudy Giuliani, you liked him because he made New York more livable, which was less crime.

Well, he did broken windows policing, which at the time was supposedly statistically based.

And you remember they had the—

I'm going to or not. Right.
that it increased an atmosphere of civility and lawfulness. Right.
And to the extent that some of that worked, but it also resulted in some very bad things. the stop and frisk policy that was incredibly racist and New York City has dealt with incredible racism since its founding.
And so, you know, I could say, yeah, it was nice not to have the squeegee guys, you know, but again, the man has imploded as a human being, Rudy Giuliani. What do you make of people like, I mean, there's so many people you think of like Harvey Weinstein, Diddy, like people who are like at the summit and then they're just in places now.
I mean, Rudy's not exactly in jail, but he's certainly in show business jail. And Epstein, I mean, to go from like how they live to.
Yeah. Giuliani was revered for decades.
He was America's mayor. He ran for president.
Yes. Yes.
And yeah, again, I don't know why the people in Trump's orbit gather there and are dismantled and destroy their lives and throw their lives away to be loyal to this man. I don't understand it.
You know, my understanding with Rudy in his case was that he actually has a serious drinking problem. Again, I don't know.
I don't call it defamation because I don't know for sure, but that's the story. That is brooded about.
Yes, yes. So it could be that.
I don't know. I don't know.
Again, I don't get the appeal of Trump as a politician in any respect, but obviously I'm outvoted,oted literally uh so i certainly not the kind of politician you're worth throwing your life away on um but plenty of people want to line enough to do it no one has been harder on donald trump or you know tweeted at me a million times never complimentary but i do i don't understand i certainly understand why you won and we don't have to go back over that some of it was what the republicans do but they ran a smarter campaign as they often do and some of us what would the democrats do but there are moments where i you know i look at him and i'll do something where i go first of all i understand why it works but works. But then it sounds like I actually like it.
Like when he was talking, the 91, he was talking about Elon's rocket that came back and they caught it. Can Russia do it? Can China do it? No.
America did it. And I was like, yeah, you know what? That's not bad to me, that someone likes America

and is proud that we can do something amazing like that

that nobody else can do.

Now, does this make up for the other?

Of course not.

I'm just saying that there are, you know,

I thought it was good that he moved the capital of Israel to Jerusalem.

And if he does something in the new term.

Yeah, the embassy. But now, what do you like about that just out of curiosity jerusalem yeah well it's been the jewish capital for like 2500 years years yeah you know i'm legitimately curious i'm not this isn't a gotcha i'm not trying to no there's no reason why Every other country in the world gets to have their capital where they want it.
And every American administration promised they would do it and then just pocket vetoed it and forgot about it for four years. It was the right thing to do.
You know, again, in a sea of things I didn't agree with. But, you know, I'm not going to judge anything until it happened.
This country needed a slap in the face and a colonic. He would not be the guy I would have chosen to deliver the colonic.
But I get the need for the colonic. It's not like we're not bloated and sclerotic and wrapped up in a bunch, in a lot of dumb things that we do.
And we'll see. I mean, they're disruptors.
They certainly got that. That's what the Democrats asked for when they invited this disaster is, you know, now we'll find out what it's like to have Bozo the Clown be the Secretary of Education.
It's so beyond parity. Yes.
the circus is literally in town uh with uh with the trump cabinet but uh but it is interesting because to me it makes it all the more clear that the that the republican project for the last 50 years is to delegitimize and and uh dismantle the united states federal government uh and they've said that i mean you've you've got Grover Norquist. Well, not dismantle, but Grover Norquist once said, strangle it in the bathroom.
Exactly. That's too far, but is it super bloated? Yes.
Even Al Gore back in the day was put in charge of doing what Elon exactly says he's going to do now. So they got it back in the 90s that this thing is out of control.
Government is completely out of control. That's also true.
I believe it's a chosen horse just to dismantle the things that they don't like. So I'm saying my issues are the environment and democracy.
Yes. And the environment is, my issue is going to suffer horribly because these clowns are in there.
You're right. What on earth are you putting in there? What is this? This is something Bill Cosby gave me.
I didn't ask. Wait.
What could go wrong? It's Cosby's finest. Look.
Oh, my God. Let's not judge him just because of 79 accusations.
Yeah, 79 rapes or whatever. But, okay, well, God bless you.
You don't have to tell me. So what's your relationship with Charlie now? I'm not saying he's a, don't connect those two.
No, it's like, wow it's like wow okay that's a segue it made me think of him i i don't think he's a rapist uh but he's done other bad things yeah i i don't know he uh we don't have a relationship anymore uh oh that's a shame i i i wish him the best i i have we have some mutual friends still uh and i've heard he's been sober for a while which is great to hear i know that he has um uh reconnected with chuck lorry who was uh the producer of my show and that their their friction was what broke up uh what what you know caused that huge conflagration on the show um why were they fighting they were fighting well it was really it was really sad actually it was incredibly tragic because uh charlie was uh relapsing at the

time uh chuck uh you know has been very there was a period where he was sober yes he was sober for

the first few seasons of the show uh the whole time the whole time as far as i know i mean obviously

i'm not the the police i had dinner with him in 2010 and he was completely sober yeah yeah and he

Thank you. whole time the whole time as far as i know i mean obviously i'm not the the police yeah i had dinner with him in 2010 and he was completely sober yeah yeah and he was proud of his sobriety uh and charming and incredibly charming and smart and great at what he does absolutely uh a wonderful comedian gifted with his timing i mean i loved working with him we had a great time yeah um but he started you know after his his marriage went south with went south with denise he started having you know clearly he was he was using again and uh he started you know it you know on the show he was still very professional um he was good to work with.
But what happened was he started having these things happen. He got arrested at the Plaza Hotel for trashing the room.
He got arrested in Colorado for fighting with his wife. Locked hookers in a closet.
Yes, that was the plaza. He's beating hookers with other hookers.
I don know what happened no uh but he uh uh he is houdini the fact that he could get a super bowl ad yeah after all the things that he's in on the press for doing some of them on tape well because it's because it's oddly he has a brand he has the brand that is bad boy exactly and that's one of the reasons that Trump gets away with what he gets away with. Correct.
He has the brand and it's on brand. I mean, part of the reason that Biden suffered so much after the Afghanistan withdrawal was it was off brand.
You know, it was a mess. And up to that point, remember, he was polling incredibly well.
Right. But then it was this, oh, no, they don't actually have a handle on this.
At any rate, with Charlie, what happened with the show was he fell off the wagon. It was obvious.
They were doing all kinds of things to sort of work around it. He was missing days on the set.
He would still show up on Friday night, and he knew his lines, and he was ready to go, and he could do the show, but he was barely functioning. And Chuck, who's been very upfront about his own struggles with alcohol, was confronting him and saying, you need help.
You have to do something. And Charlie just said, no, I don't.
And that became the big thing. Was that the period where there was a tremendous publicity blitz where he was like tiger blood and he was just on something? Well, what caused that was that Chuck said, you need to get help.
Charlie said, no, I'm not going to. He said, well, no, you know what he did with us? He said, I'm going to do it for a week.
And then he said, then I want to go back to the show. It didn't make any sense at the time, but I think it makes sense to me now.
He was already having monetary issues at the time, which is astonishing because he was the highest, he remains the highest paid actor in television. So he needed the show to go forward.
So he was furious and Chuck shut down the show. And so that was what caused what caused became the flashpoint and eventually he got fired because of all the the tiger blood nonsense and and he was yeah and he was and he was doing anti-semitic shit and it was just like what the fuck is happening here um i remember doing a thing about that and and my main thesis as i recall was okay you can say you're the greatest rock star of all time and you're this great vampire with tiger blood but you're on a sitcom on the old people's network on cbs exactly exactly and it's not the rock star it's good I have the highest respect for people who do something that has just huge mass appeal, which I will never do.
And I'm okay with that. Everyone has their great niche.
I love where I am. But I will never have that.
I mean, it wouldn't be right for me anyway. But Taylor Swift, I don't get that.
But, you know, I have total respect because Trump, you know, you got this tremendous army of people to either watch your show for years. It was one like every year, wasn't it? Like one, one, one, one.
Yeah, yeah it did great that's that's you know there's a certain like automatic respect you have to get for success in my book even if it's not what i would watch or do or vote for you move people i yes i i there there was absolutely we were we had a lane that really worked, you know, and I was really proud of it. And we had a wonderful time.
And again, he was really good to me. But when the breakdown happened, that's when he just started lashing out at everybody, including me.
And so obviously the friendship broke down. And years later, he came asking, he wanted to reboot the show.
And this is after we had already done it with Ashton for a couple of years. And I said, no, this doesn't make any sense.
That's a roller coaster I don't want to get back on. Thank you very much.
and then he started going into social media and acting like I was begging him to do

the show again which I was like

really? And then he started going into social media and acting like I was begging him to do the show again, which I was like, that's just not cool. And it's frustrating to me because he still keeps up the Tiger Blood persona socially on social media and stuff.
He's been sued for his blood. I know.
But he is, to my understanding, he's been sober for a while.

And the... and stuff.
He's been sued for his blood. I know.
But he is, to my understanding, is he's been sober for a while and the mutual friends that we have. And again, he and Chuck Lorre, as I said, they've reconnected and he actually appeared on Chuck's most recent show on HBO.
You're going to wind up all working together again. Every band gets back together when the demand is enough.
Mike Tyson just got back in the ring. He's a thousand years old.
He looked like my uncle Phil in there. Yes, he had about two rounds of a little fire in him, and then it was, nope, gone, done, done for the evening.
Again, I like him, and I wish the best for him, and I'm really glad he's sober and and if and you if you have him on the show you'll have a great time and you'll have a great show trying to have and i would not know really i would love to um but uh but working with him in any kind of a regular capacity i will not do again i'll tell you i'll do a one-off sure but uh that dinner that we had it was about 2010 i think it was six people we had a mutual friend so it was him and his girlfriend me and the girl i was with at the time and charlie and brooke the wife yes you know when he held the knife to her throat again how this guy gets a super bowl anyway so at the end of the evening you know i go for my wallet and he's like and he throws down i remember it was at the time where you couldn't get like one round of drinks for this probably now and i think it was at the polo lounge he throws down 600 600 bills i guess when the bill was 500 or whatever it was and and ever since then like this girl and i whenever we would be someplace and we want to get out quickly we would say i'm just gonna i'm just gonna sheen it she's become a verb sheen it means like you throw it out get cash and you're out this is more than it is and plus i'm gone and. So he's a cool dude.
The charisma is there. Yes, he is absolutely charismatic, and what's great about that and what's lousy about that is all encased in one being.
And again, I want to say it one more time, I really wish him well. I loved working with him when it was good.

Well, you'll be working again.

You'll be working together again. Because it becomes a thing.
It's a force in the universe. And also, you know, there was an undeniable, like, uberchemistry that probably cannot be extinguished.
I mean, people can drift.

But I don't know if that isn't so innate that it wouldn't always be there.

And then they'll offer you the right money.

Everybody loves money.

I mean, you're not so woke, you don't love money. No, no.

But now, in the future, whenever you think of the woke people that you're really mad at, it's me.

I want to put that face on it.

This is the one right here.

Just say John Cryer.

Actually, whenever you say that, it was John Cryer who brought us to this awful pass.

He's the one who did it.

It's every Hollywood actor who sits there.

For two guys who don't agree on much, you made me laugh.

Oh, good.

Like continually.

Okay. I'm sure as much as you probably hate me now.
I don't hate you. I know.
There's no hatred. Me neither.
Much as we disagree, I think you would at least give me this, that my laugh is genuine. Yes, you're laughing.
I do not laugh like a talk show host.

Well,

thank you. That's kind of you to say it, and I've enjoyed my time

a lot, and I enjoyed doing

political correct back in the day.

People who can make each other laugh

probably, you know,

find a way to agree on more than

they disagree, but, you know, we'll just say it's the beginning chapter. Yes.
Of our love relationship. Wait a minute.
Wait a minute. That went in a weird direction.
My pleasure. Great to be on the back of this train with you.
Yes, thank you, America. Me and Vice President Garfield.
Plunge to America. Garfield got assassinated, by the way.
He got shot in a train station. Chester A.
Arthur is the one who took over, right? Yes, I believe that. Vice President Arthur and I.
After you. Hopefully we both have careers after this.
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