The Conan and Jordan Show – Marriage Counseling

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Speaker 11 A Monday warrior, mean, mean stride.

Speaker 4 Today's Tom Sawyer, mean, mean pride.

Speaker 1 Okay, well, if you're listening to the song Tom Sawyer,

Speaker 1 you know.

Speaker 1 that you are enjoying the Conan and Jordan show.

Speaker 1 This is a show you can't find it anywhere else. And so far, I'm told people love this show.
It's doing quite well. And it's growing.

Speaker 1 It's growing rapidly because people are fascinated with the relationship between Conan O'Brien and Jordan Schlansky. How long have we been shooting remotes and things together, Jordan?

Speaker 1 You've worked for me for how many years?

Speaker 13 Approximately 30 years.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we started shooting things,

Speaker 1 I don't know, like 20 years ago, maybe?

Speaker 13 15 to 20.

Speaker 11 Okay.

Speaker 1 I like that you always give a range.

Speaker 13 It's really not completely relevant.

Speaker 1 I think it is. I am educating.

Speaker 10 Listen, I go anywhere in the world.

Speaker 1 I was just in Ireland shooting some stuff for Max. It used to be called HBO.
And then someone said, no, that name's too cool. Let's call it Max.

Speaker 1 So anyway, I was shooting something for them in Dublin, and someone, people were coming up to me on the street and saying, where's Jordan?

Speaker 1 People all over the world know that you and I have this fraught relationship. It lives online and now it lives on Sirius XM.
And I couldn't be happier.

Speaker 13 Yeah, that's fascinating to me. International connection is

Speaker 13 a great coming together of humanity from disparate cultures and communities.

Speaker 13 And this technology that we find ourselves surrounded with allows this to happen. And really, it just allows for a deeper human connection.

Speaker 14 Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 Well, if we could cut that, I would. But

Speaker 1 I don't know that we have the money to edit. I'm just going to let it sit there.

Speaker 15 Just

Speaker 13 well, you brought up the subject, so I just

Speaker 4 brought it up.

Speaker 1 Oh, does he need to expand? What if you had been sitting next to Lincoln when he gave the Gettysburg address? Four score and seven years ago.

Speaker 1 I'd just like to point out, of course, that four score and seven years ago, of course, that's a shorthand. He is referring to the Declaration of Independence.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And, you know, no, Lincoln didn't need someone to expand.

Speaker 13 Well, he now is a radio show, and I do have a microphone in front of me. So the implication is I'm supposed to speak.

Speaker 1 I spent half an hour trying to saw that microphone off its stand because I want to do a radio show with you where you don't have a microphone. That's what I would like.

Speaker 1 Jordan, part of our appeal, if we can call it that, some of the fascination is that people can tell

Speaker 1 that my irritation with you is real. I see.
Do you agree with that? I mean, there is.

Speaker 13 This is not for me to assess.

Speaker 1 Well, it's not a bit is what I'm saying. There's no way I could invent this contentious relationship.

Speaker 13 This is not wrestling.

Speaker 1 This is real.

Speaker 1 You're constantly getting under my skin.

Speaker 1 You and I have had many issues over the years. For a long time, I didn't know what you did on the show.

Speaker 1 I'm just being kind because I still don't know why you're working for me.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 you've committed, I think, some crimes.

Speaker 1 You've purchased expensive equipment that you yourself used and you charged it to the show. You came in late for a while.
You've traveled the world with with me.

Speaker 10 You're a know-it-all.

Speaker 1 I've caught you many times saying the wrong thing, and you never backed down. And here we are after all these years, and I don't feel we've made any progress.
Do you think we're making progress?

Speaker 13 I didn't know we were attempting to make progress. What exactly was the assignment?

Speaker 1 I would like us to not fight all the time. Is that possible?

Speaker 13 Well, I mean, we're two men in an incredibly intimate situation. I think that we expect.

Speaker 1 What does that mean? You're bringing up a sexual connotation now.

Speaker 13 Intimacy is not necessarily sexual, although often is.

Speaker 1 Even with me, whenever I'm intimate with someone, it quickly becomes sexual.

Speaker 17 Well, you're intimate with me.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I'm afraid it's going to get sexual very quickly. Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm already aroused. I'll be honest with you.
Okay. I mean, nothing's happened down there in four years.
So this is a huge,

Speaker 1 huge deal for me. It's like a zombie waking up after a long sleep.

Speaker 1 Jordan, I would like to get along with you.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 1 Would you like the same thing?

Speaker 3 I think we do get along.

Speaker 1 What are you talking about? All we do is not.

Speaker 13 I mean, we're two friends.

Speaker 19 I don't think we're friends.

Speaker 1 I'm your boss. You have to sell.

Speaker 4 There are barriers.

Speaker 10 There are barriers.

Speaker 13 Well, they're not mutually exclusive concepts. We are friends.
We are friends.

Speaker 1 Yes. I pay you.
Okay. And I wish you did as I told you to do.

Speaker 16 Okay.

Speaker 1 But yes, and if that still means we're friends, then yes. And I dream of firing you.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 1 But we're still friends.

Speaker 13 Are you asking me about these things? Are you just telling me that you dislike me for real and you dream about terminating my employees?

Speaker 3 Do you listen?

Speaker 13 I don't know what kind of response you're looking for.

Speaker 1 Okay, Jordan, let me ask you something and be completely honest with the viewers. I do have people that say to me, oh, this must be some kind of bit.

Speaker 1 This must be some kind of thing that they work out.

Speaker 1 We have never worked anything out.

Speaker 13 That is absolutely true.

Speaker 1 Well, I would like us.

Speaker 1 I'm at a stage in my life. God knows if I have much time left.

Speaker 1 And I would like to

Speaker 1 make progress. I'd like to make peace.
And

Speaker 1 there are, I don't know, there might be 50 hours online of you and I bickering that circulates the globe at all times. And I would like to stop the cycle if I could.

Speaker 1 I would like you and I to get along and figure out what is it maybe I'm doing, but mostly what is it you're doing. Okay.
Like me, maybe 10%, you 90%.

Speaker 1 You're like the iceberg on the Titanic. Really, you're the one that's at fault.
You're the one that tore the side off my ship. And now all those women and children, men are going to die.

Speaker 1 But anyway, again, you iceberg, mostly your fault.

Speaker 13 You struck me, ended up getting hurt in the process.

Speaker 20 It was dark.

Speaker 1 Right. It was dark.
Right. It was very dark.
There was no technology.

Speaker 16 Yes, but you knew it would be dark.

Speaker 13 It's not a surprise that it was dark. Darkness happened.

Speaker 17 It was my first day and there's night.

Speaker 1 It was a maiden voyage, my first time at sea. And I didn't know that the night came on so darkly in the North Atlantic.
You,

Speaker 1 fucking iceberg, you came along and you weren't lying there. You were, of course, everything floats and moves in a current.
You came hurtling down from the north and you smashed into me.

Speaker 1 I was having a good time.

Speaker 1 Bowen Yang does a wonderful sketch on this where he's the iceberg and claiming it's not his fault.

Speaker 10 No.

Speaker 1 It was the iceberg. I disagree with Bowen Yang.

Speaker 13 I understand from an entitled perspective. You may think you can move through life without worrying about obstacles and just go where you please.

Speaker 13 But there are icebergs out there and you do need to navigate them like any other human.

Speaker 16 Okay.

Speaker 1 My point is you're large and inanimate. You're frozen to the touch.

Speaker 13 I'm a mesomorph. I'm medium.

Speaker 20 What's that? You're large.

Speaker 1 Why do you say I'm large? I'm totally.

Speaker 13 Why do you say I'm large? I'm a mesomorph. I'm very average.
I'm medium.

Speaker 10 Okay. Moderate.

Speaker 1 I've never heard an iceberg

Speaker 1 speak so,

Speaker 1 you know, insanely about their body type. I think icebergs float around and say I'm I'm a mesomorph.
No, they don't.

Speaker 1 What I was, the point I'm trying to make is that I have drifted through my career peacefully with little friction.

Speaker 1 I'm a high-class operation, beautifully built ship. And then this lunky piece of ice slammed into me and ruined everything.
So

Speaker 1 let's fix this.

Speaker 3 Are you ready to fix it?

Speaker 1 Sure. I am.
Now, I'd like to introduce Frank Smiley. Hello.
Who's the producer of the Conan and Jordan show? I have to keep looking to make sure that that's actually the name.

Speaker 1 I'm glad my name is first. Right.

Speaker 21 Well, this is a very special episode.

Speaker 13 It feels special. Something's going on here.
By the way, I don't know what's going on here.

Speaker 1 No, no, no. And you know what? I love you.
You never know what's going on.

Speaker 13 Yes. We're sitting in different positions.
There's like a hubbub going on. And I don't know why.

Speaker 17 Well, I'll tell you why.

Speaker 22 Because today we have

Speaker 6 two guests.

Speaker 13 Okay. The Gottmans.

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 21 Dr. Julie Schwartz-Gottman and Dr.
John Gottman. They

Speaker 21 are the co-founders of the Gottman Institute in Washington, and they're here to help you. What they are is world-renowned psychologists,

Speaker 21 and they work on marriage stability and divorce predictions, and they're really good at this.

Speaker 22 They know how to deal with people who have conflicts, and they know how to help them with their conflicts.

Speaker 1 They also, I'll mention it now, and probably mention it again as a plug. This has nothing to do with what we're doing, but it actually has everything to do with what we're doing.

Speaker 1 They have a book called Fight Right.

Speaker 1 They are such experts, they've written a book that's all about how to fight correctly.

Speaker 1 And these are experts. I mean, these might be the two

Speaker 1 foremost authorities on fighting conflict resolution partners. You and I are partners.
We didn't ask to be, but we've been thrust together

Speaker 1 into this situation. And I think there's a good chance the Gottmans, do you agree, Frank? The Gottmans, if anyone can help us, it's the Gottmans.

Speaker 21 It's It's the Gottmans, for sure. So let's bring them in.

Speaker 1 Let's bring them in.

Speaker 14 Okay.

Speaker 1 Oh, here they come. Here they come.

Speaker 10 Oh, hello there.

Speaker 1 How are you? Do I call you Julie?

Speaker 8 You do call me.

Speaker 1 Dr. Julie and Dr.

Speaker 24 Doctor.

Speaker 25 Pleasure. John.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'd stand, but I met you already, and my likes don't work.

Speaker 4 That's enough.

Speaker 1 One standing for you guys was enough.

Speaker 1 Do I call you Dr. Julie? Dr.
John, what do you like?

Speaker 8 John Julie.

Speaker 7 Okay.

Speaker 10 All right.

Speaker 1 Well, listen, let me start by saying

Speaker 1 I don't respect what we do in this studio.

Speaker 1 And so when people like yourselves, who are real professionals, take time in to come in and help us,

Speaker 1 it's a blessing.

Speaker 13 Yes. It's really nice.
And I'll say that I've never met you two before, but you have the air of incredibly kind people.

Speaker 13 There's something, there's a vibe that you two have that makes me feel like I've known you for years.

Speaker 1 I did not get that.

Speaker 14 I did not get that.

Speaker 1 I saw them shoot kindness towards you, and what I received was a hostility

Speaker 1 and mixed with indifference.

Speaker 1 Let me start by saying thank you very much, Dr. Zottman,

Speaker 1 for being here.

Speaker 1 You really do know your stuff, and it's thrilling to be in the room with you because

Speaker 1 I'm sitting here with my friend Jordan, and I'd like to start by saying, how aware are you of my relationship with Jordan Schlansky? Have you viewed any of the footage?

Speaker 25 Yeah, we both have.

Speaker 8 Yeah, we have viewed the footage. We see the problems in the relationship.
We saw that within about three and a half minutes.

Speaker 26 And

Speaker 8 it was obvious that both of you guys were uncomfortable,

Speaker 8 really uncomfortable.

Speaker 8 And it just kept getting worse.

Speaker 27 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 25 So the first thing we want to offer are these two pulse oximeters for you to put on.

Speaker 1 Wait a minute. What are you talking about? What are you talking about here? This gentleman just,

Speaker 1 John, just held up two strange devices. I don't know if those are legal.
I don't know if they're sexual in nature.

Speaker 8 They won't shock you. Okay.
They won't stimulate you. Oh.
They record your heart rate.

Speaker 1 That's what I said to my wife on our wedding night. This will not shock you or stimulate you.

Speaker 6 Sorry. That's terrible.

Speaker 6 Oh, this is cool.

Speaker 23 Put it on.

Speaker 1 I've put this pulsometer on my

Speaker 1 pulse oximeter. Right.
And tell us what a pulse oximeter does.

Speaker 16 So

Speaker 25 it's looking at your blood. It's measuring heart rate, And it's also measuring the percent of oxygen in your blood.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 4 And it's set an alarm.

Speaker 25 And the alarm is if your percent oxygen goes below 95% or your heart rate goes above 100 beats a minute, that's around when we start secreting our two stress hormones, cortisol and adrenaline.

Speaker 14 Cortisol and

Speaker 15 adrenaline.

Speaker 8 He's still gone.

Speaker 25 Well, it beeps, but it gives an alarm.

Speaker 10 I'm sorry.

Speaker 16 Why is yours going right away?

Speaker 8 Let's see the numbers. What are the numbers?

Speaker 13 99 and 130.

Speaker 8 Yep.

Speaker 14 What does that mean? 130.

Speaker 1 Well, can I point out quickly, we're not sure he's from Earth.

Speaker 1 We don't know. He may have six Vulcan hearts.

Speaker 8 It's funny. He does look like he comes from Earth.
So

Speaker 8 what that means is that your heart rate is so high that you're extremely uncomfortable. You're in a little bit of fight or flight.
Wow. And right now, just

Speaker 6 fantastic.

Speaker 17 Hold this.

Speaker 14 Fascinating.

Speaker 6 Don't hide it. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Don't hide it.

Speaker 1 You are, you set off that alarm immediately.

Speaker 3 And you're sitting in a chair.

Speaker 13 Look, I don't know how this has been calibrated.

Speaker 2 I can't verify its accuracy.

Speaker 11 Okay. It has.
Okay, I expect it.

Speaker 8 You know, what it tells us, see, you guys have already had an interaction, right? Yeah. You just had interaction.

Speaker 8 And you sat, you took it in.

Speaker 8 It was critical. It put you down.

Speaker 16 You want to take that off.

Speaker 1 We should take that off for a second because I think listeners listening right now will go insane. So take yours off just for a moment to allow it to recalibrate.
Yep.

Speaker 8 So basically, when your heart rate goes over 100 beats a minute, it means you feel attacked.

Speaker 8 That's what it means. And your body is reacting.
as you would if you were facing a saber-toothed tiger.

Speaker 25 I see.

Speaker 27 Heart rate goes up.

Speaker 26 So,

Speaker 8 you know what would be good to do, guys, is if we could just watch you for, you know, five minutes or something, just

Speaker 8 talk about a problem you guys haven't solved,

Speaker 8 whatever it is. We'll just watch and see where we might be able to shift things a little bit.
Oh, I understand.

Speaker 23 Does that sound okay?

Speaker 1 That sounds fantastic. I'm watching.
My heart rate is now 93.

Speaker 1 It's plummeting.

Speaker 1 It says here I'm having a small stroke.

Speaker 10 I'm glad you guys laughed.

Speaker 13 So these are evolutionary responses designed to protect us against a threat, against a large prehistoric animal that may be attacking us. Our body reacts in a way that will really ensure our survival.

Speaker 13 And my reaction to this.

Speaker 13 animal is it to it in the end to benefit my own survival.

Speaker 8 Jordan, can I point out something? Human beings are pack animals. Yes.
We need each other. We depend on each other.
And in fact, we can't survive unless

Speaker 14 we have

Speaker 8 a connection.

Speaker 16 You know, it's interesting.

Speaker 16 Wait, Conan. Oh, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 23 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 8 And the fact that this relationship is not a healthy connection.

Speaker 8 It doesn't feel good to you. And that's getting highlighted a little bit.

Speaker 25 Up goes the heartbreak.

Speaker 25 Well, the problem arises when it becomes non-adaptive which means that it's a chronic elevation i see if it's there all the time then it kind of spirals down i understand and neither one of you then can really ask one another for what you really need right and that's part of what we want to help you do now here's where it gets tricky because You said, I need to ask Jordan for what I really need.

Speaker 1 But what if what I really need is for him to shut up?

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 8 So what you're saying is that that's not a personal need. What that is, is trying to control his interaction with you.

Speaker 1 Yes, that's what I want to do.

Speaker 8 Okay, so flip it on its head.

Speaker 1 I'd love to. I'd love to flip him upside down.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 8 That's probably not something Jordan would really enjoy. Oh, I have to do that.
And so,

Speaker 17 yeah.

Speaker 8 And so

Speaker 8 try saying

Speaker 8 how he could shine for you. What could he do right for you? Very good.

Speaker 1 You could work for someone else

Speaker 1 in a different profession, maybe I think in a different city.

Speaker 1 That's something that might make me happy.

Speaker 8 Okay, so let's pause a minute. So what's it like for you when you hear him say that?

Speaker 13 Well, I don't feel like it accurately

Speaker 13 reflects my work performance. I think I bring value to my employment.
I think I bring value to your life as a friend and compatriot.

Speaker 13 I think, I'd like to think, I'd like to think that your life is of a better quality for having known me.

Speaker 13 Maybe that is arrogant in some fashion, but I'd like to think we have a mutually respectful relationship.

Speaker 13 I certainly respect you. You're an extraordinary man.

Speaker 1 But can I say something I'd like to just bring up, just for the record? Oh,

Speaker 1 I'm sorry.

Speaker 8 What was it like for you to hear him say, I certainly respect you? Do you believe him?

Speaker 1 Did you guys watch the OJ trial?

Speaker 30 A little bit. Yeah.

Speaker 30 I remember thinking. Is that the parallel?

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I think he's a murderer.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 1 I'm not sure I buy what he's selling. Do you respect me? Because, and here's what I'm going to say.

Speaker 1 There's tons of footage of him criticizing

Speaker 1 my skin, the shape of my face.

Speaker 1 He sometimes more than implies that I've put on a little weight, that I, he calls me, I think he's referred to me as the beast and the monster.

Speaker 13 You're presenting this information with no context.

Speaker 7 What is the proper context for that?

Speaker 13 Let's be realistic, okay? We've known each other for decades, and we work in a very intimate environment, many hours. We've been through tough times and

Speaker 13 seen each other grow, been there for each other through thick and thin

Speaker 13 I've seen emotional damage I've seen physical damage

Speaker 13 I what are you talking about well I've seen injury I've seen you concussed yeah

Speaker 13 yes I've seen you in your lowest emotional state and your highest emotional state

Speaker 13 often within a one-hour period yeah and and with that intimacy with that intimacy because we are human beings and this is not a robotic uh interaction only an alien keeps saying i'm I'm a human being and not a robot.

Speaker 13 Most human beings just what I'm saying is there are going to be ups and downs. Yes, of course I respect you and I think you're a great man.
Are you without injury to me?

Speaker 13 Have there been injurious experiences?

Speaker 2 Of course there have.

Speaker 13 And I accept that as part of the human experience. We can speak of them if you like.

Speaker 1 Jordan went into great detail once, doctors, about how he thought that I was in great shape because he reviews all the footage.

Speaker 1 And then, wow, my monitor's going up now. And then he said that there was a period of time, like a two-year period, where he thought I gained weight.

Speaker 1 And he said, it sickened me to look at you during that period of time. Did you not say that?

Speaker 13 Well, listen, again, we have to present proper context.

Speaker 13 Of course, I'm concerned about your health and your longevity, both from a practical financial standpoint and also a human relationship standpoint.

Speaker 13 If I see you partaking in unhealthy behavior, I'd like to think we're at a stage where I can mention it to you respectfully.

Speaker 1 You said there were periods in the late night show when you thought I gained weight probably in the early 2000s.

Speaker 16 2002.

Speaker 8 Have you got the date?

Speaker 13 Yeah, it was started at the end of 2001. It was right after 2003.

Speaker 1 You know what happened is I got married and I was very happy after years and years of trying to find the right partner.

Speaker 1 I gave up and married this woman. No, kidding.

Speaker 1 I found my wife very happy. And

Speaker 1 she was cooking me all this great food. And

Speaker 1 yeah, I probably put on a little weight. My face got a little round.

Speaker 1 I started to resemble Ted Kennedy in the late 80s. And

Speaker 1 yeah, and

Speaker 1 Jordan was quite,

Speaker 1 I see it now.

Speaker 1 You have to take that thing off. It's just going crazy.
You're like a, it's like, it's like a smoke alarm in the towering inferno. You just need to take that off.

Speaker 1 But, but he, um,

Speaker 1 I see now, because of your help,

Speaker 10 that you were

Speaker 1 in a, as a friend, I think, rather than just having, making fun of me, you were telling me as a friend something that no one else, Jeff Ross, isn't going to say you gained a little weight.

Speaker 1 Paula Davis isn't going to say that.

Speaker 17 They're all yes people.

Speaker 1 They just, whatever's good, you know, but you,

Speaker 1 you, were trying to tell me the truth.

Speaker 17 Do you respect that?

Speaker 10 I do.

Speaker 8 Yeah. So you really appreciate that honesty.

Speaker 1 I wish he hadn't said the word grotesque.

Speaker 1 And he called me the beast and the monster.

Speaker 14 That's a bad way to express

Speaker 25 concern.

Speaker 1 Thank you, John.

Speaker 13 I can't confirm that I use that word, but I have no reason to doubt you.

Speaker 1 Oh, it's stuck in my mind quite clearly.

Speaker 13 When I called you the beast, was I referring to your physical condition or was I referring to maybe an emotional attack that you performed on me?

Speaker 14 I performed on me.

Speaker 8 Pause for a minute. Yes.
Pause.

Speaker 30 Yes, doctor.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 8 So what I see is you guys slinging insults back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. There was one little piece of appreciation from you, one from you.
You appreciated his honesty.

Speaker 8 You said you respected him.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 how does it feel to hear appreciation versus insult and be honest about it? How does it actually feel? Do you take it in when you hear that appreciation?

Speaker 1 Well, I'm going to speak purely as a professional. It's not as funny.
When we're being really mean to each other, people are laughing.

Speaker 1 When I'm hearing Jordan and appreciating him and he's telling me he respects me,

Speaker 1 I just see an empty audience

Speaker 1 and I panic.

Speaker 25 You know, I'm not sure that's true because people love you.

Speaker 1 And when they see you.

Speaker 1 There's actually no data on that.

Speaker 14 Yeah, I think there's a lot of data on that.

Speaker 7 Well, we've looked forward.

Speaker 8 How many followers do you guys have?

Speaker 1 I don't even know.

Speaker 13 Well, if you prefer to speak about injurious behavior, we can. You've clearly brought up something that bothers you, this comment that I allegedly made.

Speaker 1 And I think this is important to review some of the more toxic areas. Okay.

Speaker 1 I'm going to say that

Speaker 1 you have made fun of the way I sometimes don't get all the hairs on my neck shaved.

Speaker 13 Yeah, you know, I'm noticing right now on the right corner of your mouth. How does, I just want, I'm curious, above all, scientifically speaking, you two are doctors.

Speaker 13 Doctor comes from the Latin docere, or in the ecclesiastical pronunciation, docere. It actually means to teach, which is perfectly suited to you too.

Speaker 13 I'm just curious, scientifically, how does it happen? Like you have a mirror,

Speaker 13 you're shaving, how do you miss such large chunks of hair on the corners of your mouth? And I'm not trying to insult you. I know, conventionally speaking, it sounds like I am.

Speaker 13 I'm really, as a scientist, how does it happen? That's, I'm just very curious.

Speaker 1 I do things quickly.

Speaker 1 I'm always in a rush, very type A. I take quick swipes with the razor.

Speaker 1 Also, I now predominantly, you know, work in

Speaker 1 radio.

Speaker 1 The

Speaker 1 lenses here aren't that exact. My wife,

Speaker 1 you know, doesn't get to see me up close too much. She's grown very distant.

Speaker 1 That's not true. I just threw it in there to see if I could pique your attention.

Speaker 1 But I don't think she's getting a good look at my face anymore she saw it she liked it in you know 1999 it was enough it was enough thank you thank you john it was more than enough and so that's why uh i he is very much into manscaping he likes a stop

Speaker 8 stop don't describe him describe you so you are doing a beautiful job Perfect, perfect, perfect answer. You didn't go defensive.
You didn't go counterattacking. You described you.

Speaker 8 And that is really, really, really

Speaker 8 important in terms of having a decent relationship. You don't describe the other person.
I see. Because every time you guys do, for the most part, it turns into either criticism or contempt.

Speaker 8 And contempt is sulfuric acid for a relationship. It's when you're criticizing from on high.
Being superior fails. What else is it?

Speaker 8 Not only that for contempt, but it also predicts how many infectious illnesses the listener is going to have

Speaker 8 in the next four years.

Speaker 8 The times of contempt in 15 minutes.

Speaker 1 Are you saying that I could make Jordan sick? Yes. By putting him down?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 1 Well, this is fantastic.

Speaker 1 Thank you.

Speaker 14 You

Speaker 16 giving you a weapon.

Speaker 1 You just handed yes.

Speaker 8 You are such a rascal.

Speaker 3 Well, I am.

Speaker 1 That's the nicest way to put it.

Speaker 25 Well, the problem is that the person who's contemptuous,

Speaker 25 that person's immune system also degrades over time. Right.

Speaker 1 So by holding contempt for Jordan, I'm also damaging my own immune system. So I'm lowering its ability to fight infection.

Speaker 10 So this is

Speaker 13 self-defeating.

Speaker 16 This is bad for both of us.

Speaker 13 Can I respectfully ask, which I think is constructive, if I notice large patches of unshaved hair on your face, would you prefer if I remain silent and don't bring it to your attention?

Speaker 13 Like if you walk in and you just have a huge patch of hair, maybe on your

Speaker 13 Adam's apple, for example, you prefer that I note it internally.

Speaker 2 Well, first of all,

Speaker 4 you're implying that the hair is growing out so much. I'm just simply asking.

Speaker 1 You're implying the hair is growing out so much. I can braid it.

Speaker 13 I have seen such wild growth in a very specific area.

Speaker 4 Can I just say one thing?

Speaker 10 I'm a profile area.

Speaker 1 I am a very masculine man. And I know you're going to stop me in a second and say this isn't relevant, Conan, but I would like to say in my own defense,

Speaker 1 for a man my age, I think pulsating with testosterone, I pump out a lot of

Speaker 1 facial hair. very quickly.
I think sometimes that's not my fault. And for you to attack me for being one of the most masculine men you know is I think,

Speaker 10 probably

Speaker 23 unfair.

Speaker 16 Okay.

Speaker 25 He wants you to be quiet about it.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 13 I will be quiet. I will note it to myself.

Speaker 13 I will not mention it to anyone else, nor you.

Speaker 1 Well, you also tend to mention it when there are cameras and microphones around.

Speaker 1 Wouldn't it be fair to approach me quietly and say, Conan, you have a long, tuft, it looks like a ponytail coming out of four pores to the right of your Adam's apple, and I will take care.

Speaker 1 I'll seek out the proper authorities.

Speaker 13 So you prefer I pull you aside, maybe before taping.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 13 bring to your attention your

Speaker 19 errors,

Speaker 13 your shaving errors in private.

Speaker 8 Okay, pause. Yes.

Speaker 8 Put down.

Speaker 15 Oh.

Speaker 19 Okay. Okay.

Speaker 4 So shaving errors.

Speaker 17 I mean, it's objectively.

Speaker 13 Well, I don't assume his intention was to miss the hair. So I consider it an objective.

Speaker 8 Can you read his mind?

Speaker 13 I cannot.

Speaker 16 He may have intentionally wanted to leave that disgusting tough hair.

Speaker 8 right but yes i don't why does it matter to you

Speaker 13 why does it matter to you here it certainly doesn't matter but i think when there's an elephant in the room when a man walks in

Speaker 1 who's 95 shaved and there's just hair jetting out of his cheek i just

Speaker 20 i just think it's worth mentioning

Speaker 13 i don't mean any insult i don't mean any insult it's it's easily fixable it's not a slight on your character we all make mistakes

Speaker 13 i make mistakes mistakes. They're not related to large tufts of hair on my face.

Speaker 13 But I just think that it's as human beings, we have to acknowledge something so painfully obvious that was somehow missed with all your technology. Mirrors, you have lighting in your bathroom.

Speaker 13 But I'll do as you say and pull you aside and let you know.

Speaker 1 I love that you refer to light and the mirror as technology.

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Speaker 1 Jordan,

Speaker 1 my personal appearance is one of the things that we have trouble with.

Speaker 1 Another thing that we have difficulty with is that Jordan loves loves to expand as he did on the phrase doctors.

Speaker 1 I find that insulting because you're both doctors, you're both highly educated, you're very successful, highly intelligent people.

Speaker 1 And then this guy is telling you the Latin root and what it comes from and what it means. Everywhere we go, I love it.

Speaker 8 Me too.

Speaker 14 You like it. Yeah.

Speaker 26 We're always learning.

Speaker 8 He taught us something.

Speaker 1 Here's the one thing I'm going to say, Julie.

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 1 If it's okay.

Speaker 1 He's often wrong. The information he told you, I would look it up because there's a 75% chance he's wrong.
He has held forth and expounded on where Karate Kid 2 was filmed, wrong.

Speaker 1 You know, the origins of pizza, what you're allowed to drink with pizza. He said, you don't drink wine with pizza if you're doing it correctly.

Speaker 1 He was corrected

Speaker 1 in Italy. by the people making the pizza that yes, you drink wine with pizza.
He's constantly...

Speaker 13 these are your insults that I didn't know where the Karate Kid 2 was filmed.

Speaker 1 Oh man, that was humiliating. Right.
And Ralph Macchio, who played the Karate Kid.

Speaker 13 Ralph Macchio.

Speaker 1 It's Macchio.

Speaker 13 In fact, the CH makes a hard C sound like pizza.

Speaker 30 Pause, pause, pause, pause.

Speaker 8 So when you correct him,

Speaker 8 that's contempt.

Speaker 25 I see.

Speaker 8 I know more than you do. Let me tell you how it's right.

Speaker 15 Yes.

Speaker 13 I imagine a world where one can share information, information, where human beings can increase their collective intellect by sharing information. I've learned some things.
You've learned some things.

Speaker 13 You tell me what you know.

Speaker 20 I'll tell you what I know.

Speaker 13 So you may not know that the CH is pronounced with a heart skin. And that's understandable.
I wouldn't expect it to. Italian is not your first language.

Speaker 17 But I'm like you.

Speaker 13 And you certainly know things that I don't know. Presidential history, for example.

Speaker 13 And we can share with each other and we can both come out smarter and more knowledgeable for it.

Speaker 4 I don't see the contempt.

Speaker 23 Yes. Can I point out something?

Speaker 8 You only want to share knowledge when the other person wants to hear it.

Speaker 8 If you share it when the other person is talking about something else and you correct their grammar, you correct their pronunciation,

Speaker 8 you're interrupting what they're trying to say and...

Speaker 8 being superior because you know better and commenting on it. And when he does that, what do you feel?

Speaker 1 Well, I'm going to point out something because I'm still wearing my monitor because it hasn't been beeping at all. Yours has exploded and blue foam is coming out of it every time it gets near you.

Speaker 1 It does not recognize you as a person. Mine during his whole rant when he was yelling at me went down to below 90 to 89.

Speaker 8 Interesting.

Speaker 14 My heart rate.

Speaker 1 I think I have so little regard for his opinion that it's almost like he's a hat rack to me. Like I, you know, I, I don't, I don't, I'm not saying this is correct.
I know what I'm saying is terrible.

Speaker 1 And these are the confessions of probably a Ted Bundy hours before his death, but I, my heart rate went down when you were yammering and jabbering because I thought I was just looking at a chimp in the zoo, you know?

Speaker 1 And so I was calmed and pleased.

Speaker 8 Okay, pause.

Speaker 1 Now, if you're going to try and say chimp in the zoo is an insult, I think you're way off base.

Speaker 1 And I know that John's with me on this one.

Speaker 23 Are you, dear?

Speaker 25 Well, I was thinking of this couple where

Speaker 25 the husband got very upset and said to his wife, Joyce, do you think you're better than me? And he said, she said, better than I.

Speaker 4 Oh, yes.

Speaker 4 Very good.

Speaker 1 My wife would do that. My wife would do that because she's very grammatically correct all the time.

Speaker 25 So that's information, but in the context, it comes off as know-it-all and content.

Speaker 13 So you would prefer, respectfully, if I may ask, so I know how to do that.

Speaker 17 We're not going forward.

Speaker 1 We're not in a courtroom.

Speaker 13 Yeah.

Speaker 13 You would prefer, if I do not correct your mispronunciations, allow you to speak with your customary authority, even when I know that you are making errors, or maybe pull you aside, right, before the taping and tell you.

Speaker 1 Let me tell Julian John one thing, which is that

Speaker 1 we were recently in Buenos Aires together. It wasn't for work.
It was a romantic getaway.

Speaker 1 And he kept referring to the famous dance, the tango, as the tongo

Speaker 1 now

Speaker 1 and he got in my face and said it's called the tongo everybody in argentina backed me up and said no we call it the tango and he went please it's the tongo

Speaker 1 no it's not the tongo so it's not that your whole premise is wrong that you have the correct information and isn't it kind of you to share it with me um

Speaker 7 you're uh you're wrong you're just wrong all the time i i let him finish finish.

Speaker 13 I did not interrupt him, even though my instinct was to say immediately, that is incorrect. It is the tongo.

Speaker 13 You see, in Spanish and Spanish-speaking countries, known as Hispanic, which differs from Latin American in the sense that Latin American refers to only Latin American countries, Hispanic, it's any country that speaks Spanish.

Speaker 13 The A is almost always pronounced A.

Speaker 26 So.

Speaker 8 Does this feel like the kind of relationship you want to have?

Speaker 14 No.

Speaker 1 No. I would.

Speaker 1 And this is one of the questions I wanted to ask you is, is there a part in your book where you actually say it's okay

Speaker 1 for me to start hitting Jordan?

Speaker 1 Physical violence is probably usually discouraged, right?

Speaker 8 Probably so.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 What if I hired someone to do it? How about if I don't get my hands dirty?

Speaker 30 How about

Speaker 8 if you just say to him, please don't put me down?

Speaker 1 Jordan? Yeah. Please don't put me down.

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 1 I groom quickly.

Speaker 1 I don't take the great care that you take with your groomings. I don't have all of the equipment you have, or the oils, or the bombs, or the waxes.

Speaker 30 Careful.

Speaker 1 You're right. I have to tell you, you're right.
I was starting to get into judgment. You were.
Yes, I was. And you know what? I appreciate that.

Speaker 13 I did not feel insulted.

Speaker 8 Not yet. Not yet.
He was going there. Oh, yes.

Speaker 1 Trust me.

Speaker 1 I was cranking up the catapult into a job. I I was pulling it back.
I was pulling it way back, and then I was going to hurl a giant boulder at your castle and destroy it.

Speaker 1 You're wearing like a wizard's hat. You're up in a tower.

Speaker 1 Too much information. My point is that

Speaker 1 I groom quickly.

Speaker 1 And I don't often take the same care that you take because you are very fastidious. He's very fastidious about his grooming, and I'm not putting him down, but he has all kinds of products.

Speaker 1 Mostly for grooming, he has other products for various other practices of his, which I find amoral, but that's his thing, and I'm not going to judge it. It's whatever sexual stuff he's into.

Speaker 1 But my point is,

Speaker 1 I don't take the same care you do. I don't have the same standard of beauty, the same canon of beauty that you have.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I just have to say, when you constantly point these things out to me, I feel

Speaker 1 less than.

Speaker 1 I feel

Speaker 1 I get into a defensive crouch.

Speaker 1 I think I grew up in an environment. I've talked about this a lot, but I come from a very large Irish Catholic family,

Speaker 1 the son of very, very intelligent, educated people. And yet, for some reason, we fought like animals.
We threw potatoes at each other.

Speaker 7 We really did.

Speaker 1 I saw my mother throw a potato at all of us once. It's the only thing we had around.
We just had so many goddamn potatoes.

Speaker 1 We've been in the country for a while, and they're very well-educated people, but they brought the country with them. And my point is that I often felt attacked,

Speaker 1 and I learned growing up sarcasm,

Speaker 1 passive aggression, my verbal judo chops would be the way that I would get through life.

Speaker 1 And then along comes this big block of wood that's just perfectly made for a judo chop.

Speaker 1 Do you know? I mean, you've seen the karate, karate, sorry, Jordan, masters chop a board in half.

Speaker 16 Right.

Speaker 1 Verbally, my whole emotional reaction to things in life is a judo chop, attack before you can be attacked. And then in comes this inanimate, large

Speaker 7 block of wood.

Speaker 1 Just a block, just a giant block of wood. And that's what he is.
He's not like, you know. Try having a conversation with a block of wood.
You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 And so I just chop away. And that's what I do to you, Jordan.
And it's probably not always fair.

Speaker 8 Conan, can I point out something?

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 I really appreciate you sharing that history. That history is really helpful.

Speaker 8 It lets us know that, for one thing, growing up in a family where you're always being attacked, you've got to survive, right? And how do you survive? You create defenses. Yes.

Speaker 8 And your defense is to counterattack.

Speaker 8 But the problem with a defense like that, you know, it's a shield in front of you to kind of hide yourself so you don't get shamed, is that you're also blocking out the positive that comes from him, the respect, the care that may be in there.

Speaker 1 And... Are we certain it's in there?

Speaker 27 I think so.

Speaker 1 You think there's some caring in there?

Speaker 4 I mean, I think there's a lot of caring.

Speaker 27 There is a lot. Can we?

Speaker 1 You know what he wants? He wants his paycheck. I mean, I know that sounds crass, but I am his employer.
We aren't husband and wife.

Speaker 8 Conan, how many decades have you been together?

Speaker 1 What has it been? 20.

Speaker 14 20 decades.

Speaker 16 Three decades. Yeah.
Well, that's it. Three decades.

Speaker 8 Okay. So my guess is that if you really, really wanted to, you could work elsewhere, but you don't want to.
He didn't.

Speaker 1 He looked for work. Okay.
He's unemployable. No, no, seriously.
And you told me that because of your actions that are out on the web, you are seen as unemployable. Yes?

Speaker 13 There have been.

Speaker 25 Why don't you get back to your point, Julie?

Speaker 1 I'm sorry. I'm very sorry.

Speaker 1 You know what I did?

Speaker 1 I went again on the attack. And again, the old judo chop.
And I apologize, Doctor.

Speaker 1 Please go ahead. And John, you were right to stop me.

Speaker 25 Well, I was thinking about.

Speaker 5 Can I finish? Sure. Yeah.
Go ahead.

Speaker 25 You finish. I want to interrupt you.

Speaker 14 Go ahead. Yeah.
Yeah, we're great.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 when you are

Speaker 8 hitting at him, he, of course, blocks you.

Speaker 8 But when you say, look, I really respect you, and you meant that, seriously, I could tell it wasn't made up,

Speaker 8 boom, you push it back, off it goes, doesn't go inside, just bounces off.

Speaker 1 I'm terrible at taking a compliment.

Speaker 8 I saw that.

Speaker 14 Why? Why, why, why?

Speaker 8 It feels good to have those compliments, Conan.

Speaker 1 I don't let any of those in. Oh, no.

Speaker 8 That is sad because those compliments could probably do a lot to heal all that shame inside, fear inside, feeling attacked always?

Speaker 8 Like you let in.

Speaker 1 Let me ask both of you. I would like you to give your assessment, and this may be selfish to take Jordan out of the equation, but assess me.

Speaker 1 You've watched a lot of tape, probably against your will, but you had to because you were coming on here. Wrong.

Speaker 1 Do you see a damaged man? And I want to start with you, John. I want to make sure you get yours.

Speaker 25 No, I don't.

Speaker 14 In fact,

Speaker 25 I was really moved by your your story of how when you were at Harvard and you went along with your friend to the Harvard lampoon, you really found yourself. I did.
You really found

Speaker 25 humor as

Speaker 25 a way of really expressing who you are.

Speaker 1 I think I'm, I disagree. I think I'm very badly damaged, a madman maybe.
But I do think humor saved me from actually committing crimes, you know, from going on the loose and leaving a trail from.

Speaker 25 But sometimes it's like the shield that Julie was just talking about. Sometimes humor itself is like a shield.

Speaker 25 I mean, it's a wonderful gift, obviously, you know, and it's a great talent you have with humor. But sometimes it also blocks out the love

Speaker 25 that this friendship has, that is very palpable. We both feel that.

Speaker 1 And you feel that love is coming from Jordan, but I'm blocking it with humor. That's right.

Speaker 8 Right. And put-downs.
Yeah. And put-downs.
It's that counter-attack.

Speaker 25 I think one of the other things is that what makes this show

Speaker 25 so

Speaker 25 important to people around all around the world is that they feel the love

Speaker 25 and they see the hostility and put-downs. They see both at the same time.

Speaker 25 And it's a very powerful thing because here you are having all this love for one another and yet pushing each other away and then coming back together and pushing each other away.

Speaker 13 so it's a very powerful dynamic and the humor is really fascinating this is amazing i've never thought of it i'd like to think that we represent the human condition with all of its ups and downs oh my god you and i said the speech earlier before they came in may find this uh realistic approach to life endearing and they may enjoy watching for that reason i'm sorry i've hurt you with my um

Speaker 1 Misinformation.

Speaker 17 With my

Speaker 1 he's objectively, he was wrong about where they shot Karate Kid 2. Objectively wrong.

Speaker 8 Conan.

Speaker 1 They shot it in Los Angeles.

Speaker 13 No, they didn't shoot it in Los Angeles. They shot it in Hawaii.

Speaker 4 Oh, Hawaii. Yeah.

Speaker 14 Okay, but you didn't say Hawaii, did you?

Speaker 13 I just said Hawaii now.

Speaker 16 I've improved myself.

Speaker 13 I'm sorry. I've improved myself.

Speaker 16 I'm open to improving.

Speaker 14 There's certain things on you.

Speaker 8 Conan. Yes.

Speaker 17 Stop.

Speaker 17 Stop. He's apologizing.

Speaker 8 And you're interrupting.

Speaker 23 Stop,

Speaker 30 stop, stop.

Speaker 8 He's apologizing to you. He is trying to repair some injury he caused you.
Did you take it in?

Speaker 1 No, because I still remembered him being wrong.

Speaker 6 Okay. It came back.

Speaker 1 It's like a train coming at me.

Speaker 8 Is that more important than him trying to repair the damage he's done?

Speaker 1 You're right.

Speaker 13 Yes, you see, my intentions were never evil, just as I know your intentions were never evil when you've committed injury against me in the past.

Speaker 1 When have I committed injury?

Speaker 13 Well, it's interesting that you ask because we spent the first hour talking about the ways I've damaged you by answering questions by...

Speaker 1 Let him run just a little bit. Let's hear this.

Speaker 10 Go ahead.

Speaker 13 Now, again, I want to preface this by saying I expect

Speaker 13 when you're talking about decades of intimate relationships that there are going to be

Speaker 13 inadvertent slights to the other person.

Speaker 16 Okay.

Speaker 13 The year was 1999, May 1999, and the world had not seen a new Star Wars movie release in 16 years. And at the time, the Star Wars franchise was pristine, you have to understand.

Speaker 13 Put yourself back then. And they announced that a new Star Wars film would be coming out in May 1999.
And I was a big fan. You know, my brothers were as well.

Speaker 13 And I decided to pull out all the stops and get tickets to an advanced screening of this movie a week before the public would see this.

Speaker 13 Now, you may think media screenings are all civilized, but when it comes to Star Wars, people still line up three hours before. So my brother came into New York City on the train.
He spent hours.

Speaker 13 We got there maybe four hours in advance, and we just sat on the sidewalk together waiting for this momentous occasion. And we were one of the first ones in the theater.

Speaker 13 And we sat right in the center. We judged how many rows were there.
We wanted the full surround sound experience. We wanted to get lost in it.
And of course, the theater filled up.

Speaker 13 And I was thinking any fool that walks in now is going to be like in the back corner.

Speaker 13 And I was envisioning the magic of that moment after it says a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, before the John Williams score.

Speaker 1 Do you guys have anywhere to go? Are you at least?

Speaker 13 I was envisioning it bringing me back to my childhood. I wanted to relive what it was like to be an innocent child with my brother, okay?

Speaker 13 So about two minutes before the movie starts, I hear some commotion behind me. And this guy stumbles in with this like brainy NPR type woman with him.

Speaker 13 And they, excuse me, excuse me, some woman is escorting them because they're like elite.

Speaker 13 And there just happened to have been, I guess someone left or something, two seats right behind me in the center. I had been there for five hours.
This guy stumbles in.

Speaker 13 He's like tripping. He's like tripping over people.

Speaker 4 So he says, I didn't stumble.

Speaker 1 I wasn't drinking. Yeah.

Speaker 17 No, you had a, you kicked people.

Speaker 13 You know, you were like one of those people inadvertently, you know, you tripped over people. So now you're sitting behind me and you start like gabbing to me.

Speaker 19 And already, already, I

Speaker 13 don't want to talk to anybody. I just want to get lost in this moment.
Okay. So the lights go down and the 20th century Fox logo comes up.
And I'm thinking to myself, this is it.

Speaker 13 After 16 years, this is it. And that silence comes right after that fanfare before the flourishing music.
And this guy leans forwards and starts cracking jokes. This guy makes it all about him.

Speaker 13 He takes me completely out of the moment.

Speaker 4 He starts jabbing in the middle of the movie theater.

Speaker 13 And

Speaker 13 you just needed that laugh. You had to take that moment, not knowing the history of what I went through, to get that laugh.

Speaker 13 And, you know, he's sitting there chuckling, and forever you've taken that moment away from me.

Speaker 13 Now, I know that it was not intentional.

Speaker 13 He may not have had respect for the situation, and most people know that they're not supposed to speak in a movie theater, especially something of that magnitude.

Speaker 1 I knew those sequels weren't be good.

Speaker 13 And I think I communicated to him my interest in what was happening and my disregard for anything that he may have had to say.

Speaker 1 Will you admit now that those movies were not great?

Speaker 13 Yes, in retrospect, they were

Speaker 20 not necessarily as good as the first one.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 if Jordan and I, let's say in another universe, because I don't think it's going to happen in this lifetime, but let's say we got along,

Speaker 1 people wouldn't be fascinated. It's because they see us taking chunks out of each other that it becomes.

Speaker 8 It's a wrestling match.

Speaker 1 It's a wrestling match. Yeah, a very strong wrestler against a very, well, well, bodily shaved wrestler, but one that's very, very weak and has bad information.

Speaker 8 Careful.

Speaker 1 You're right. That could have almost become an insult.

Speaker 18 Tell you what.

Speaker 4 Tell you what.

Speaker 26 Almost, huh?

Speaker 8 How about, how about if John and I role play

Speaker 8 a totally different kind of conversation? Okay.

Speaker 27 Okay.

Speaker 1 And are you going to be us in this conversation?

Speaker 8 We're going to be you slightly improved.

Speaker 14 Idealized versions of us.

Speaker 1 Idealized versions of us. And an idealized version of me is apparently me.

Speaker 8 Communication.

Speaker 1 So who's who's Conan and who's Jordan?

Speaker 8 It doesn't matter. Okay.
It's just what's between us

Speaker 8 that matters, right?

Speaker 8 So do you want to take the beard patch?

Speaker 23 Should we do the beard?

Speaker 25 If I'm going to be honest, there's a lot about you that annoys me.

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 8 What is it that I'm doing that annoys you?

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 25 So

Speaker 25 when you go on about

Speaker 25 Italy and wines and

Speaker 25 all the things you know,

Speaker 25 It makes me feel insulted.

Speaker 23 Like,

Speaker 25 you know, like my my father was a microbiologist. My mother was

Speaker 25 a great lawyer.

Speaker 16 This is scary.

Speaker 14 He's being

Speaker 23 awful. And I, you know,

Speaker 25 I felt put down at the table all the time,

Speaker 25 at the dinner table. Really? And when, so when you expound, my, you know, my father's a learned man, you know, and how could I, you know, match him?

Speaker 25 So I kind of feel that way when you go on about wines or how things are pronounced in ancient Greece.

Speaker 8 You know what? I did not know that that felt insulting to you. What would make it better for you?

Speaker 25 Maybe ask me if I want to hear what you have to say.

Speaker 8 There's a plan.

Speaker 8 That would be good. Okay.
If you want feedback, maybe or something.

Speaker 23 Like if you want to expand it.

Speaker 25 If you want to expound about something,

Speaker 25 ask me if I want to hear it.

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 25 If I want to hear it, then, you know, great.

Speaker 23 Okay.

Speaker 4 Okay.

Speaker 8 Sounds like, though, if I'm seeing something,

Speaker 8 for example, a patch of beard that you haven't shaved. Okay.
Yeah.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 it kind of grates me just a little bit. So

Speaker 8 should I point out?

Speaker 25 I hate authority.

Speaker 8 So when I point that out, I feel like an authority to you. Yeah.
Which authority? Who would say that?

Speaker 25 My father, my

Speaker 25 father.

Speaker 15 The great microbiologist.

Speaker 17 Oh, no.

Speaker 8 So I remind you of your father?

Speaker 30 Oh, my God. That's terrible.

Speaker 1 He once threw a cyclotron at me.

Speaker 14 Go get her.

Speaker 16 Wow. No, I really appreciate

Speaker 25 you saying that.

Speaker 25 That's really great.

Speaker 8 I don't want to be like your father. I really don't.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 14 Because I appreciate that.

Speaker 8 On some level, you hate your father. What?

Speaker 1 I don't hate my father. I love love my father.
My father's a great guy.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 1 I respect him. I love him.
He threw those test tubes at me for a reason. I was acting up.
This is on me. It wasn't my dad.
I was way out of line. Dad, I'm sorry.
I think we should try it right now.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. So, Jordan, why don't you try and talk to me the same way that these two

Speaker 1 are.

Speaker 14 Yes.

Speaker 13 I am sorry if I have reminded you of your father.

Speaker 13 I'm sorry if I have brought you back to painful moments in your childhood when I've told you how to pronounce Ralph Macchio's name.

Speaker 31 It's Macchio.

Speaker 13 No, it's Macchio. I am sorry if some of my information sharing has been offensive.
I certainly didn't mean it that way.

Speaker 10 And incorrect.

Speaker 13 I may have made mistakes like any other human being. I don't know that's a reason to discount my entire credibility.

Speaker 13 Going forward, I will make an attempt if I notice a large patch of hair on your face that you miss shaving, I will make an attempt to tell you privately as per your request. Thank you.

Speaker 13 Also, I will ask you, if I have something to share that's relevant to what we're speaking about, some facts,

Speaker 13 Latin origins of words or other etymology, I will ask you first, do you want to hear what I have to say?

Speaker 4 I don't want to, ever.

Speaker 13 Well, it'll depend on the context.

Speaker 1 No, it doesn't. I'd never want to hear that stuff.

Speaker 8 Ever. If you pronounce it.
Take it in, Jordan.

Speaker 16 Jordan, take it in.

Speaker 1 I never want to hear it. Oh, you never want to hear it.
I never want to hear it. I should not even ask.
Exactly. I see.
Yeah. There's no like, well, it depends on the moment.

Speaker 13 All this information I have just goes to waste.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It mostly, it's, it's mostly shit.
It's not good. And I'm sorry.
Listen, I'm sorry. That seemed harsh, Julie.
I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 It's not factually correct, most of it. And I think you're just shooting from the hip.

Speaker 1 So no, I don't need to hear it.

Speaker 1 I can always, and trust me, I have, there are phones. You can look up everything you need to know right now.
And it will tell me.

Speaker 13 Well, sometimes you don't know what you don't know, right?

Speaker 23 Jordan? Yes.

Speaker 8 Let me ask you something. Yes.
Why is it so important to you to correct Conan? What's that about?

Speaker 13 That is a very valid question. You see, I don't honestly don't look at it as correcting.
I look at it as sharing information. Let's come out of this.
Let's come out of this as enhanced human beings.

Speaker 13 Jordan?

Speaker 14 Yes.

Speaker 8 What you're doing is saying, Conan, you're wrong. I'm right.

Speaker 8 And it becomes a win-lose thing.

Speaker 8 He has to lose. You get to win.
Yeah. Does that, is that fulfilling to you? Does that bring you emotionally closer to him?

Speaker 13 I'd like to think that over time, we have built up a foundation of love and understanding to the point where we can exchange information and not have it necessarily interpreted as hostile.

Speaker 8 But that's not how he thinks about it. Yeah.
It's not a sharing of information. It's not.

Speaker 1 I see your face and I just want to smash it.

Speaker 13 I've learned. I've learned today.
I've learned that you're in pain. And now I understand why.

Speaker 13 And I will envision you as a helpless child competing with other siblings. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 4 I will envision you.

Speaker 4 I will envision you

Speaker 17 doubting your own self-worth.

Speaker 13 Yes. Well, this way I understand his pain and his vulnerabilities, his weakness, if you will.

Speaker 3 Really?

Speaker 3 Yes.

Speaker 8 Can you actually express empathy for him rather than

Speaker 6 don't infect him.

Speaker 2 I can imagine.

Speaker 13 I put myself in his situation. Okay.

Speaker 13 He's got a lot of siblings. Now, now look at his father.

Speaker 16 This is also a very good thing. So a different thing.

Speaker 1 I want to crap one thing just so there's no love my dad.

Speaker 1 Dad, not the problem, not the issue. Let's talk.

Speaker 1 My brother Neil, man, and Neil, if you're listening, and I know he's a listener,

Speaker 1 he used to, he was older than me, and he would sit on top of me and I couldn't move and he would laugh.

Speaker 3 And yeah, he would laugh.

Speaker 17 Some would say that.

Speaker 13 And he did a a healthy sibling interaction.

Speaker 1 He did it two years ago when I visited. Yes.

Speaker 1 You know, and

Speaker 1 I had to call the police.

Speaker 1 Neil, if you're listening, that really got my goat. My father, great man, great man and very lovely and a sweet man.
There's some issues. Everyone has issues with their father and their mother.

Speaker 1 Of course they do. But listen, I won't have my father slandered on this show.
Never again.

Speaker 13 I don't intend to slander your father nor any of O'Briens, Neil, Justin, Kate, Jane, any of them.

Speaker 17 You know them all.

Speaker 22 They're good at predicting whether a relationship is going to last.

Speaker 1 What are your predictions,

Speaker 1 John?

Speaker 25 Well, one of the things that

Speaker 25 I think needs to happen in this relationship is for you guys to recognize how indispensable you've been to one another

Speaker 25 these almost 30 years. Yeah.
And that you're not replaceable.

Speaker 1 Can I just point out, I think I'm not replaceable. I'm

Speaker 1 sort of a once-in-a-hundred-year talent.

Speaker 1 Like a Haley's Comet, if you will, in comedy.

Speaker 13 I think it's 76 years, Haley's.

Speaker 19 Oh, excuse me.

Speaker 13 I have information about Haley's comet. Would you like to hear it?

Speaker 1 And my point is, I think if you as,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 an Ikea trundle bed, you know, that, okay, this one broke. I'll get another one.

Speaker 17 Right, right.

Speaker 8 You ask for a prediction.

Speaker 8 You're never going to fire him.

Speaker 17 Wow.

Speaker 8 And that's because this has been going on

Speaker 1 for three decades.

Speaker 8 If you were going to fire him, you would have fired him 25 years ago.

Speaker 1 I actually think I did, but he just kept showing up.

Speaker 14 He didn't notice it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he didn't notice it. And then he controls the paperwork.
So he probably just gave himself a raise.

Speaker 8 So let me say one other thing. May I, in terms of prediction?

Speaker 14 Sure.

Speaker 8 So you guys bicker and banter. back and forth, lots of criticism, lots of contempt.
Nobody's being vulnerable. You're not Jordan.
You're not either. But

Speaker 8 the rewards for not being serious and vulnerable are too big for you guys to want to change the relationship.

Speaker 8 The rewards of success, of money, of followers. Yes.

Speaker 1 I mean, and to be fair, especially with the money part, that's mostly goes to me. Like, it's, I am, you know, this is just another thing.
I don't know that you see a lot of money from this.

Speaker 17 No, I don't.

Speaker 1 But I,

Speaker 1 you know, I mean, I haven't seen your house, house, but mine's just insane.

Speaker 13 Well, we're not equal, of course. You are superior and I am inferior.

Speaker 1 11 of your houses would go into my house,

Speaker 1 and we might do that as a bit.

Speaker 8 You know what? I would love for you guys. I would love to hear someday on your show.

Speaker 8 You know what? Conan is really brilliant. Yeah, Jordan is really brilliant too.

Speaker 8 Wouldn't that be amazing?

Speaker 23 Well, yes, I'd love to.

Speaker 25 In lieu of that, have a copy of our book.

Speaker 16 Thank you, Frank.

Speaker 14 That's right. No way.

Speaker 23 Is that the right one?

Speaker 17 Yes, it is. It is.

Speaker 16 It is.

Speaker 17 Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 I was told this was an erotic novel.

Speaker 14 What's going on?

Speaker 1 This is actually.

Speaker 1 I want to thank you very much, and my eternal thanks to the Gottmans. Yes, for being aware of that.

Speaker 21 And their book is called Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict into Connection.

Speaker 16 It's available now. That's a beautiful cover.

Speaker 17 Thank you, Frank.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 our job, Jordan, we're both going to read this book.

Speaker 16 And

Speaker 1 I would actually like to hit you with this. So that might be the way that I use it.
But thank you.

Speaker 8 No, that's Neil. You want to hit Neil.

Speaker 7 Well, he's really strong.

Speaker 1 He might hit back. I want to thank you both very much.

Speaker 1 You both are, all joking aside, very good at what you do.

Speaker 7 It's been a pleasure.

Speaker 4 We just made me a lost cause. But thank you.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. Thank you so much.
And that's been this very just fascinating for me episode of the Conan and Jordan show. And thank you for tuning in and we'll see you next time.

Speaker 21 The Conan and Jordan Show with Conan O'Brien and Jordan Shalansky is produced by me, Frank Smiley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Jim McClure.

Speaker 21 Engineering and Mixing by Eduardo Perez. Our supervising producer is Andrew Groos.
Talent Booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn. The theme song is Tom Sawyer by Rush.

Speaker 21 You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts, and you might find your review read on a future episode. Got a question for Conan and Jordan?

Speaker 21 Call the Team Cocoa Hotline, 669-587-2847, and leave a message. It too can be featured on a future episode.

Speaker 21 And if you haven't already, please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.

Speaker 21 And be sure to subscribe and tune into Conan O'Brien Radio, Channel 104 on Sirius XM.

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