Working with Tai Lopez, Selling Zoosk for 9 Figures & Working at NASA | Alex Mehr #264

We were building apps before there was iPhone apps.

At the time it was such a novel idea that when I told people to build apps, they thought I meant app diagnosis.

I told them, hey listen, in a few years you're gonna even be doing your banking through apps.

And people chuckled.

They thought it was joking.

It's unbelievable.

Yeah.

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And here's the episode.

All right.

Welcome back, guys.

Digital Social Hour here with a very great guest for you guys today, Dr.

Alex Mayer.

How's it going, man?

Hey, man.

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely.

So I got to know this because I've seen your doctor, obviously.

What did you specialize in?

Mechanical engineering, complex systems.

I have a PhD in engineering.

Whoa.

Yeah.

That sounds fancy, man.

Where did you do do that?

In the States or?

Yeah, University of Maryland.

College Park.

But you didn't grow up here?

No, I immigrated here after my undergrad.

I was 21.

Okay.

Where were you before that?

I grew up in Iran.

Wow.

Yeah.

That must have been a big change.

Huge.

Like, what was that like?

Did you come with your family or did you come alone?

No, I came alone.

Wow, that must have been scary.

Yeah.

I couldn't speak the language.

Oh, you didn't even speak English?

Dang.

I could read, but I couldn't converse.

I couldn't understand, you know, when I watched TV, I couldn't understand it.

So wait, so what did you do in class?

It took me, I want to say, three months.

Three months.

Yeah.

It's pretty quick.

No, I have to, I had to.

I've heard from people outside the US that English is one of the hardest languages to learn.

It is difficult.

I mean, it is easy to read and write,

but talking is difficult.

Yeah, that's what I've heard because there's so many nuances and weird words.

Even I struggle sometimes.

Cultural references are a big issue.

So I noticed you've been on kind of a hiatus the past three to four years on social media.

What's been going on in your world?

A lot of MA.

Yeah.

Big brands.

So it took a lot of energy.

So I was just focusing on that.

I feel that when you say MA, you were acquiring companies, right?

Correct.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And your strategy there.

you and Ty went after older brands that were out of business, right?

Iconic brands that are distressed.

So the brand and

brand awareness is a strong.

People like the brand, but the business model didn't work.

Right.

And you did that for three to four years, but now you're on to some AI stuff, I see, right?

Correct, yeah.

Deal.ai.

That's right.

Can you talk more about that?

Yeah, so it's a big trend.

There are a lot of baby boomers retiring, and baby boomers own about 40% of small businesses in the U.S.

Roughly, depending on whose estimation you believe, there's going to be seven, six to ten trillion dollars of business assets changing hands in the next 15 years or so.

So it's a huge opportunity for business buyers.

And these are

cash flowing businesses.

There's a supply glut of them coming to the market because of the interest rate environment, high interest rate, the multiples are also depressed.

So you can buy these businesses relatively cheap as a multiple of their cash flow, which means you can buy these businesses and have the business operation pay for its own acquisition.

Wow.

So, with that's that's um, I mean, that's an opportunity that I don't think um people want to pass upon.

And

uh, especially with, I don't know how much you know about an acquisition MA market, but it's very old school, especially in uh small businesses.

Um, there isn't really a tech platform that is doing it, helping people do it.

Yeah,

uh, and with AI, it's a specific, I mean, it's a a lot easier to do this nowadays.

It can help with different aspects of this process.

So we're building essentially the tech platform plus the support system for people to do this at scale.

Wow.

I really like that idea because I sold a company and I had no idea what I was doing in that process because they don't really teach it.

Not at all.

No one teaches you how to sell a company.

No, and if you're doing a big transaction, like if you're a buyer and seller of the company that is, let's say, $50 million plus,

there's obviously investment bankers that can uh help you with that but if you're talking about a million dollar two million dollar acquisition or selling a company that is in that range like let's say one to four

um

i mean it's very manual

the brokers like they don't have any tools there are a lot almost never there's a data room right um so it's a process that can help a lot i mean that can improve a lot yeah so is this something you experienced when you sold your dating app zoos for a lot of money?

Not really, because in that scenario, we had like sophisticated bankers.

It was a $258 million transaction.

So, this pain point doesn't exist for companies, like I said.

Like, let's say above 20 million, there's always an investment banker.

And they're like professionals and they do exactly this for a living.

They have data, they build data rooms and all that.

It's when you go to small businesses, which is the majority of American businesses,

and there are like you know, 29 million of them in the United States.

That's when there is really no system, no solution.

And because it's not worth the investment bankers' time, it doesn't make sense.

So that's where technology can

make the most amount of difference, in my opinion,

by helping that process run smoothly.

That's cool.

So what's your strategy?

Are you looking to acquire businesses in the five to 20 million range, stack those up?

No, it's smaller.

I want to say this.

Well, you can obviously do bigger acquisitions and all that but there's a break so um

if you go higher in price point you're competing with institutional uh private refirms by

therefore things are higher price as a multiple of revenue so i think where the sweet spot is nowadays are companies that are let's say i want to say even like

a few hundred thousand dollar uh purchase price like 300 400k all the way to four million And

there are a ton of financing options available for entrepreneurs to buy them.

Most people don't know about it.

Obviously, the most well-known one is SBA.

It's literally designed for this kind of acquisition, helping Americans own these kind of businesses.

And

you can pick up these companies at a relatively low multiple.

Multiple means annual net income of the company and multiple of that as a purchase price.

You can buy like lower end 1.5 times annually.

So you make your money back after a year and a half.

Correct.

And, you know, higher end that I like to see is 3.5.

So it's like three and a half years.

Right.

So you essentially you use bank financing plus some deposit and you acquire the business and you run the business and have the business pay for its own acquisition price.

That's

you're not putting up any of your own capital?

Little.

That's actually insane.

So the risk seems pretty low well the business can go wrong right we all know that so you really gotta what are some ways to vet the business to make sure when the takeover happens the revenue stays the same or around the same so it's an art and science and um and part of what we're building on our platform is helping the science piece which is essentially what are the questions you've got to ask and get the answers to and that's ai can help with that um but that's not enough so you collect the data

you analyze the data you obviously get professionals to help you.

But then, a little bit, the art piece of it is the part that I'm trying to help the entrepreneurs myself.

It's like talking to the sellers, meeting them, understanding the reason they're selling.

And

a lot of times, I like businesses that the entrepreneur founder has been in it for decades.

They're in their late 60s, 70s.

I have some that are in the 80s.

And you know that they treated this business like they're the family member.

So, you know, the team is, they took care of the business.

They never thought about selling it.

So,

you know, they ran it like it is, it is there for forever.

So they didn't like put weird things on it, didn't do a lot of weird stuff.

And that, um,

that's the profile that I'm the most comfortable with.

That makes sense.

Because they've been in the business for decades.

You know, the money's not going to go anywhere.

Exactly.

Like they didn't like

so.

There's always going to be skeletons in the closet once you buy a company.

But I feel like that kind of acquisition has the least amount of those surprises.

Right.

So, and do you care about the industry?

Are you going after certain industries, or you just look at the numbers and treat it as is?

So, we are industry agnostic, so we do everything, but I tell you

where you can find really good deals are low-tech service businesses, like for example, subcontractors, plumbing companies

you know consulting companies IT consulting companies marketing companies

I mean those IT consulting companies would be a high tech but it's most of them are low tech

so service-based companies yeah I so the sector that I really like it's called tech enabled services

so

they have a particular tech cycle product that they insert into the customer's ecosystem.

And because of that, they're very sticky.

Does it make sense?

Yeah.

And then they make their money from servicing that company.

They have a high retention rate.

Much higher.

Got it.

So if you deploy even a small piece of technology into the customer's ecosystem,

you have that customer for a long time.

So, like Intel with their chips.

Exactly.

Yeah, they've been in all the computers for years, right?

Yes.

Yeah,

it doesn't have to be like hardware.

A lot of times it's software.

The best example, if you look at really big companies, is Patentier, which

has government agencies as

its customer and it essentially is software plus service.

Yeah, I like any business that sells to the government because you know that money is coming in.

When I was selling during the pandemic, I sold some PVE to some government organizations.

And I mean, they got unlimited money.

So it doesn't even matter for them.

But speak, you mentioned Puerto Rico earlier.

What's it like living there?

Because I've heard mixed things, man.

I'm not going to lie.

Whatever you're hearing.

Some people go there and they don't like it.

You know what I mean?

Are you one of those people?

I'm an introvert, so I can be inside my office and

I don't care where I live.

My wife doesn't like it, so that's much.

It's like just a little bit difficult to get, you live on a small island.

So, so island fever is what they call that, right?

Exactly.

So, you feel kind of trapped.

Yeah, I really like it.

I mean, it's a great country and great people and all that.

If you're an extrovert, you want to consider like splitting time so you know, you don't feel trapped.

Yeah, have you always been an introvert?

Yeah, interesting.

Yeah, your whole family?

Um, yeah, I want to say, yeah, well, I've kind of mixed at different phases of my life.

I've gone extrovert, introvert, but I've never happivert is the time.

Is that what it's called?

Yeah, okay, so you can switch back and forth.

Oh, interesting.

I never knew that.

Yeah, I can turn it on when I need to, you know what I mean?

Depends on the situation I'm in.

That's that actually makes you a functional introvert.

So I can turn it on too.

Gotcha.

So,

but it takes energy.

Yeah.

And I prefer not to.

You seem like you're very cognizant of conserving energy.

Yes.

Is that something you think about often?

Yes.

I actually, yes.

The actual term I use is brain damage.

I try to minimize brain damage.

So brain damage means

when you're every time

you work on a problem and

that problem, like,

people think of it as time.

I think of it as the amount of like draining power it puts on my brain.

So I like things that are straightforward and I can, I see the problem, I can solve, which is, if inside a business or like a science problem, that's perfect.

But when you're talking about like, you know, buying a company, you have to deal with the emotions of the seller and the buyer and all that.

So that's one

that's why I go for acquisitions that I fully understand.

I understand everyone's incentives and you can minimize the brain damage.

Interesting.

So you believe we have almost a finite amount of energy?

Yes.

Call it willpower.

I mean, there's quite a bit of studies on that, right?

So your willpower is limited, your energy is limited.

If you use a lot of your willpower in the morning, by night, you don't want you've heard the term decision fatigue, right?

Right.

So it's the same thing.

It's just you get tired of it, and

you become sloppy.

So,

so, what's like the optimal hours you're putting in a day before you see fatigue?

Um, I think, well, I work

pretty much every waking hour working, so I'm a workaholic in that sense, but to take breaks.

So, the way I do it, I don't know if you're for the concept of time blocking, especially things that are uh, you don't want to do, like paperwork, right?

Okay,

so the best way to handle those is to spend like an hour half an hour one hour whatever in the morning on it and just give it the amount of time that you allocate to it let's say one hour and then if it's not done by the time the time is up it's fine you do it tomorrow so that's how i do it and then i and then there are a lot of things that i like like building products i really like right so they don't feel like brain damage to it got it and uh then i fill out the rest of my day with those kinds of stuff interesting so you probably dedicated five, 10 years to becoming a doctor.

What was that transition like to business?

Because that's a very rare transition, I feel like, once you're a doctor.

Yeah, so I growing up, I always wanted to be a scientist.

And even when I was five, if you ask me.

And I grew up in a family that

valued science and education more than business.

In fact, my parents looked down on business.

So they were like, okay, so you make enough money to make like middle class lifestyle.

And anything above that is excessive.

It's not okay.

Focus on education.

Like that was like education was ranked higher, way higher than money and business.

Definitely the term business was not a thing I grew up with.

My first exposure actually was in grad school at the University of Maryland.

And

I saw an ad.

I don't know how much you know about grad school.

Have you been to?

Have you been taken?

I've heard of it.

I've never

made it that far.

Yeah, so in grad school,

you essentially live.

I mean, a lot of graduate students, they do research work or teaching work to pay their way.

And it's not a lot.

So you're always starving.

So I saw an ad for free pizza at the Yorkshire Maryland's Entrepreneurship Club.

And that's why I went there

and I'm standing in the back

eating pizza and I'm watching these entrepreneurs presenting their ideas.

I'm like, wait a second, I can't do this myself.

So that was actually my first real exposure.

And I didn't really dabble in business until I graduated.

And then I worked as a scientist for two years.

And

then I was like, okay, maybe I should try it.

And it's a one-way street.

Yeah, you don't go back.

You don't go back.

And honestly, if I go,

I like business, don't get me wrong.

But my happiest days in my life were my scientist days.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

So it was a lot of fun.

Wow.

That's fascinating.

Yes.

You weren't making much as a scientist.

No, not at all.

I mean, it's enough to live an okay life.

But

there's a lot.

It's funny.

If I go back in life, and people ask me that question, I'm like, if I go back in life, and I think I started when I was

25 or 26 as an entrepreneur.

And if I go back to that moment, maybe I don't become an entrepreneur.

Wow.

And you're so successful.

So hearing you say this is really interesting to me.

I mean, it is, look, if that

it's a, it's a,

it's, I like science.

I like scientific thinking.

And it's just you do that for a living.

It's actually a good life.

So.

Yeah, I feel like if you're really passionate about it, you could put the money to, and they make decent money.

I mean, so I guess you could, but I mean, having experienced what you have, making tens of millions, it's just interesting to see you.

Yeah,

yeah, money is not everything, right?

So it's like, yeah, you can, if, and if, and if you don't earn it in the first place, you never know what it feels like.

Right.

So, did you have a battle with your parents because they looked down on business when you told them you were transitioning?

They must have been pissed.

Oh, yeah, 100%.

So, uh, I was doing when I started my first startup,

um, I was also doing uh my MBA at Berkeley.

And

when I told my parents, I'm dropping out because I started my first company at the game Zoos.

Oh, that was your first company?

Yeah.

Wow.

And I had raised my seed round already.

I had like employees and I was at the same time doing multiple things.

And I told my parents, I'm going to drop out of school.

I can't finish it.

And I dropped out last semester.

So I had literally one semester to go.

And my dad called me.

He's like, Son, is it money?

Because I can give you more money, just stay in school.

I'm like, No, dad.

This is like

this is this is my new calling and I'm going to do it.

So, they hated it.

And how many years did it take for them to accept the I would say two, three years?

Yeah, that's that must have been rough, Matt.

Yeah, but the fact that you started Zeus as your first company, I mean, was how much of that was luck, you think?

A lot of it.

So,

uh,

I really think luck plays a big role.

Now,

there are ways to maximize your luck.

Just flip the coin more often.

So

try more ideas.

That's the, I mean, end of the day, it is luck.

Nobody can fully predict

if a product, especially a new product in a new environment, is going to have product market fit traction.

And

the best way, in my opinion, that you can maximize your luck is to do launch a lot of products and see what works.

And the ones that are the ones that are not working, you just cut.

So that's a good point because people think they have the winning product, but you never know.

100%.

It's like, it's so difficult to.

Yeah.

So those first years, I mean, you were bootstrapping, right?

We bootstrapped, actually,

I raised capital for that company relatively quickly.

Oh, pre-revenue?

No, post-revenue.

Okay.

Yeah.

So

I'm a big fan of getting to revenue quickly rather than raising capital because you want to get traction.

Yeah.

And

yeah, it's not always possible.

Like, let's say you have a medical device startup.

It's just not possible.

Yeah.

But

if you have a tech or a internet type company, you want to get to traction quickly.

And then your life becomes easier, even if you need to raise capital.

Yeah.

So that's cool.

I agree with that.

I see these companies raising money pre-revenue, and I don't understand it.

Especially in a tech company, what I mean, what are you waiting for?

Why don't you just generate some revenue?

Exactly.

Yeah, it just seems like such a big bet.

How have you seen the dating space dating app kind of change or evolve since you got involved?

Yeah, so we were one of the first movers.

And

so, to give you an idea,

we were building apps before there was iPhone apps.

Wow.

So we were building it for Facebook and MySpace at the time.

I remember those apps on Facebook.

Yeah.

So,

and then

shortly after we launched Zeus, iPhone App Store opened and we were ready.

So we launched our iPhone.

At the time, it was such a

novel idea that when I told people we built apps, they thought I meant appetizers.

That's funny.

So

yeah.

So, and I remember I was actually giving a talk at a conference and I said,

at the time, everything was dot-com, right?

So,

I told them, hey, listen, in a few years, you're going to even be doing your banking through apps.

And people chuckled.

They thought it was joking.

It's unbelievable now.

Yeah.

And that's how early we were.

And we were the dominant data gap for quite a few years.

Yeah, my mom used your app, I believe.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so did you ever get on the app store eventually?

Are you sold before the?

Are you interested in coming on the Digital Social Hour podcast as a guest?

Well, click the application link below in the description of this video.

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Oh, no, we were number one online dating gap in terms of gross revenue for four years.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah, we were actually top four, if if I'm not mistaken.

There was a study that looked at all the revenue-generating apps across all categories, and we were like top five.

That's wild.

And were you implementing AI back then to match people together?

We had what we call, yes.

So

I played dabbled in AI when I was in grad school.

It was not anywhere close to what it is today.

But in 2008, when we were growing our app,

I quickly realized that

what I call like survey or questionnaire based on my dating

doesn't quite work because people cannot tell you with certainty what kind of person they're looking for.

In fact, there's almost no correlation between what people say they're looking in a partner versus who they end up with.

Wow.

And there's studies on this.

That's crazy.

So we quickly realized that the best way to actually predict who's a good match for someone is to look at who they're trying to interact with and then who is actually interacting back with them.

So we had this algorithm that looked at what we call deep conversations.

Like it essentially looked at two people having multiple messages back and forth.

And

based on that, predicted in the future what kind of people to show them.

Interesting.

So you would analyze their messages with other people?

It's not message itself.

It's

who they're interacting with.

Got it.

Wow.

Yeah.

Those sites were always interesting.

I saw my mom on them.

You could filter how much their salary was.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you could just toggle how much they make, and a list of people would pop up.

I tell you a funny story.

So when we started, this is again before even iPhone and App Store.

So I'm talking 2007.

Yeah.

So we started collecting data on who is responding with talking with whom and like seems to be a successful match.

And

I built a simple regression model that looked at can I predict who's going to match with whom based on attributes they put in their profile.

And it was funny because for men to be successful, one of the most

important attributes was height.

Really?

Yeah.

They will do well.

I hear a lot of girls talk about the height, so that makes sense.

And then the next one is income.

Right.

So height and income, those were the most important too.

Yes.

And so if you want to be successful and you're not very tall, you have to make a lot of money to make up for it.

Or you could get that surgery where you,

you've seen that one?

You could add four inches.

Sounds weird.

So were you verifying the incomes when people put it on the site?

No.

Oh, no.

It was self-declared, declared.

So people definitely lied.

Yeah, for sure.

And

there is an actual problem in online dating.

Later on, we launched a feature.

We were ahead of everybody else on this to do photo verification.

So at least they look like what they say they look like.

And then we had user feedback if they really lied or they were a terrible person.

Yeah.

So I'm reporting that guy for lying.

I heard people would lie about their ages on those sites too.

Age too, yeah.

Yeah, it'd be like seven years off.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

The height, height, age income.

Yeah, but now I feel like Tinder makes you upload your ID or something.

Yeah, but people lie about their height on driving license too.

Wait, you could do that?

I thought they measure you.

No, they don't.

No, they don't.

They don't.

Wow.

I should have said I was like 6'8.

And weight also.

If I'm not mistaken, there's weight under a trend stuff to collect.

Nobody weighs you at DMP.

That'd be so embarrassing.

You saw there's some airlines that are going to start weighing you now?

I have heard of it.

Yeah, that's funny, man, because I guess some of the flights are too heavy.

So it's costing them more money.

Yeah, it makes sense.

Yeah.

So

are you mainly focused on dlai right now like that's that's 100 your time now yeah what about family other activities yeah i mean family is uh

i mean i set aside time for family always but uh work-wise delay

so you see a lot of potential now a lot of it so i think i think we are just seeing the tip of baby women's retiring

And I find these businesses very attractive.

I mean, they may not be sexy like circumvaluation startups, but

they've had decades of cash flow history, good team in place, like a hold on their market, whatever it is.

And

there's a lot of potential.

So I agree.

And I feel like a lot of these baby boomer companies, the owners have no idea how to sell their company.

Right.

Like you never really hear about, oh, I acquired a plumbing business.

Yes.

And

not only that, it's probably their first and last time that there's a big company.

Yeah.

So it's very important them

what they're doing, but they have zero experience.

Not always, but

some of these unsexy companies, man, they actually, they pull in some decent numbers.

Yes.

And you'd be surprised.

Yeah.

I mean, you can find like

subcontractors doing 20, $2 million of EBITDA net income.

Yeah.

And you can buy that reason.

It's out there.

Yeah, that's super impressive.

Yeah.

A couple of your clips I wanted to talk about that I saw.

You said on another podcast, I believe it was four years ago, ago, you said making 10K a month is really easy.

Super easy.

So, you still feel that way?

It's actually can make more now.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I feel like, I mean, I agree with you, but I feel like a lot of people watching would take some offense to that.

You know what I mean?

But why?

It's like, look, it is

there's so much money out there, and people looking for products and services that improves their lives or some aspect.

It's pretty easy, especially in a service business.

So

it depends on the person, obviously.

So if you have no skills and

you know nothing about it, then maybe it's difficult.

But then your step one is to go gain skills, go work somewhere where you can gain those skills.

And then it should be easy.

And it doesn't matter like the age, gender, or anything, you think everyone's capable?

Yeah, I think so.

Wow.

Because I feel like I think the average salary is what, like 50K a year or something?

56, 55, I think.

So that's what, 6K a month?

That's a terrible amount, but

yeah, 10K.

I mean,

I just feel like the average person would be pissed seeing that clip.

But why?

But why?

Is it better for people to know that it's possible

or for them to have this self-limiting belief that it's not possible?

Yeah.

I think people who think they can't do it, it's just a self-limiting belief.

It definitely is.

So you mentioned skills to develop.

What are some high-income skills you think people should look into?

uh definitely engineering marketing uh two that are easily attainable uh then sales if you have the personality for it um

and uh then everything else i mean people uh learn finance they can work as freelance uh accountant for example um

there are i mean any role that you can think of

yeah i agree you can be an hr consultant if you're good with people

you just tell me who the person is and and there's probably a path to like, you know, yeah, everyone's good at something, right?

Yes, you can find ways to monetize it.

Yeah, so your family placed, you know, heavy importance on education and took a toll on you.

What are your views on education like with your kids?

Yeah.

So education is good if you're clear about why you're going to school.

So let's say you want to be an engineer or a scientist or a medical professional.

Okay.

The only path is a school and it makes sense.

If you want to get into business, okay,

getting a degree in English doesn't help you.

So

it's just not needed.

So I would,

it's just a matter of like, don't push kids blindly into an education system.

that just wastes their time, loads them with debt, and then gives them nothing at the end.

That's kind of, I mean, there's a time and place.

Piece of paper they get that they'll probably lose in the closet eventually.

Yeah,

read history or whatever and

read the internet.

Yeah.

Read a book.

Now let's talk networking because you built an extensive network.

You're really good at networking, despite being an introvert.

How did you develop those skills?

It's a little bit of being methodical about it

in the sense that you can do it in a Google sheet or an Excel sheet.

Always identify people that you want to remain in touch with and just keep in touch with them on a frequent basis.

It doesn't take that much time.

It's like the text message, hey, thinking of you.

This is something I read that reminded you of that.

That reminded me of you.

That's a simple way.

Got it.

So it's just as you're going about.

your daily life, you see an article that is relevant to someone that you know, just send it to them so that's for already established connections but what about new connections getting on their radar well same thing so um networking events even though i'm i've never been good at it um

uh i think my approach has been uh essentially be it's kind of like think of it as a chicken and neck bro so if if you're six if you succeed a little bit in business uh people come to you and network is built and then you can success succeed more in business right so it's it's not like oh i i wait until i'm a billionaire then i network and it's not like okay i have nothing i don't even know what i'm doing with my life i'm a total bum with my mom's mom's basement yeah and why don't people talk to me it doesn't work that way either so it's like a little bit of build your life a little bit network build your life more network more i definitely agree with that because there's certain stages where you have to network to get to the next level and then there's certain stages where you don't need it as as much.

Absolutely.

I mean, at the beginning, you don't need anything.

Right.

So, yeah, you got to grind.

I'd say make that first six figures and then network and then keep repeating that.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Speaking of network, Tylope's.

How did that happen?

Uh, we met at

an online dating conference, industry conference.

Uh, so we were both on a panel.

Okay, yeah.

So this was a while ago.

Long time ago.

I want to say 2009 or 10.

Wow.

So you've known him for a long time.

And you didn't end up doing business for 10 years.

years yeah exactly so

uh we were friends he's obviously a very smart dude and uh uh we talked about books that's how we

classic

that doesn't surprise me yeah and that's how we became friends and nice friends

yeah and what made you want to take that friendship into business because that's a tricky thing it is a tricky thing

i think we started with mental docs and um

you know that's that was and it was a natural thing

so yeah that was was a revolutionary subscription product at the time.

Yes.

You guys were like one of the first subscription companies.

Yeah, into that.

I mean, the concept of capturing books in the form of a video

was invented by us, basically.

Wow.

So it's like, I mean, that's Netflix for book videos.

Yeah.

How many people were signed up at that at the peak?

Over 100,000, I would say.

Holy crap.

So every month they would get a book in the mail.

Is that how it worked?

So it was physical at the beginning, physical boxes at the beginning.

I didn't like it.

And I tell you why, because

what happens is that people feel like they're accumulating junk.

So they don't read the previous box and all that.

And it just is adding up and they feel right.

So we went into a digital one.

Got it.

So ebooks.

E-books.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And he's the physical one probably couldn't be scaled either.

Yeah.

It's 100,000 copies.

Yeah, it feels good shipping to people.

It's just like we ordered a ton of books all the time and we're shipping it.

So I felt like we were doing something good for the world.

Right.

But it has that problem of people are paying for it on a monthly basis.

Physical books and shipping is expensive.

And when people aren't reading it, because it wasn't just books, it was books plus summary pamphlets and workbooks and things like that.

So it was a whole package.

So if you were not using it,

it would just accumulate.

And it feels like you're accumulating jobs.

Yeah, because reading a book a month for some people is pretty quick.

Yes.

Yeah.

Two a month.

Oh, two a month.

Wow.

Yeah.

I don't know how you and Ty read one a day.

It's not about the speed of reading.

It's like the feeling of people have real, I mean, they have lives.

Yeah.

And maybe, you know, they don't have time in a particular month, which is most people.

And then the moment you feel like it's accumulating, that's when you want to go cancel your subscription.

For sure.

Which books really stand out to you that you've read that left a huge impact on your life?

I'm going to name a book, but it's not going to be very popular.

I think The Selfish Gene was.

I haven't heard of that one.

It's

about evolution

and

how a lot of things that we do on a daily basis

are

driven by our genetic disposition to do those things for the gene itself to propagate.

Meaning,

at least the biological system, some people are spiritual and all that, but the biological system is not designed to maximize your happiness, it's not designed to maximize your satisfaction, it's designed to maximize the probability of our genes propagating.

Okay,

so and then once you understand that, at least at a biological level, you understand people.

So you understand why people do what they do.

Interesting.

A lot of times, yeah.

Wow.

So it's a lot of subconscious thinking, then a lot of it.

I would argue that

90% of things that you do on a daily basis, I just made up that number, but that's

sounds good, yeah.

90% is driven by your some genetic code, really, yeah.

Holy crap, that's kind of scary to think about.

Yeah, so you're only controlling 10

if that dude, because I feel like I'm in control of my life, but then I hear people saying you brush your teeth in the same way, right?

And now, when I brush my teeth, I'm like, oh my god, I'm really doing that.

Yeah, so tell you, like things like

greed,

envy, fear, happiness, right?

They're all emotions that are informed with a genetic that are created for a genetic purpose, like they play a role.

So when you feel yourself happy or sad or angry,

you think there's an external there's always an external stimuli but um

but that but that's not why you're reacting.

It's just you're genetically, you're coded, encoded in you

to like things or not like this, like something, because that increases the likelihood of you succeeding in propagating your genes.

Wow.

That's actually crazy to think about.

Yeah, that's.

So we don't control what we like, basically.

Correct.

So is that sort of like, where does that come from?

Is that from past life trauma or something, you think?

No, it's literally genetically encoded in you.

So,

you feel hungry

because

people that did not feel hunger, they would not go pursue food.

Therefore,

they will not have enough calories.

They will not survive.

They will not propagate.

So those genes got eliminated.

So you're genetically programmed to like having food.

You're genetically programmed to want to have sex and have kids.

You're genetically programmed to

bond with people around you, even though you think, oh, they're like, but it's like, essentially, it's like you're building a tribe so that if there's an enemy attacking you, you can defend.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

So it's like you don't think about the underlying reason.

Yeah.

Just do it.

Yeah, just do it because it comes from tens of thousands of years of evolution.

That's crazy.

So are there ways to change this genetic modification?

Very difficult.

Very difficult.

Very difficult.

We are mostly, like, I think of it as a lot of it is genetic disposition.

And some of it is programmed early years in your life.

And then you have two factors against you if you're like over 23, 24, that prevents you from changing.

One is genetic disposition.

You cannot change that.

Second is your brain plasticity

decreases significantly with age.

So it's very difficult to change your habits.

Wow.

That's crazy.

You mentioned finding happiness earlier.

What's been your journey with that?

It takes people their whole lives sometimes.

Yeah, and

I have a very specific thing about it.

I actually don't maximize for happiness.

Happiness is a misinformed feeling.

So

it is triggered for reasons that may not be relevant.

So

I try to ignore it.

Now, having said that, I'm not a machine.

So not an AI.

I'm not an AI yet

before I connect neural links.

But

at least right now,

the way I think about it is like, okay, so why do I feel happy or sad about something?

And does it really matter?

So I try to ignore the feeling.

Wow.

That's a crazy way of thinking about it.

Yeah, I don't try to fix it.

I try to ignore it.

Clearly.

Yeah.

It's just a sadness, the same thing.

Happiness is the same thing.

Fear the same thing.

Envy the same thing.

It's a male emotion.

You just try to ignore all of that.

I try try to ignore it.

Like now, I'm not saying I don't have it.

I don't have those emotions.

I have,

I even show it sometimes because I don't have full control over it.

Like you don't have full control over your emotions.

I just try to tell myself that emotion isn't as important.

Wow.

So, and I try to not pay attention to it to the extent that I can.

Wow.

Therapists must hate you.

Yeah, I can be a therapist.

I'm not going into Trigger.

I don't think it'd work on you.

No, I don't think it would be, yeah.

I'm like, you can't play mind tricks on me, man.

But how do, how does your wife and your friends feel about that?

Because they, don't they want you to open up a bit?

Yeah, but

I'm not like that.

Like, I don't like, like, if I, if I, if I feel like I fucked something up, like I just, and I'm mad at myself, I try to analyze it and then I try to put it behind.

So

I don't think talking to people

oh, I should say that, because there are a lot of people who go to shrinks and it's just not for for me.

Right.

Yeah, I've tried therapy or whatever, and it's

interesting.

But like you said, the subconscious is 90% or whatever it is.

So they really can't do much if you think about it.

Yeah.

And look, none of us have iron minds, right?

So we don't even understand our own brains.

It's just, and I for sure cannot control it, okay?

But I can do my best to tell myself that those feelings are not important.

So, like, they're misplaced.

Right.

They're based on some old genetic code that is running in your brain that was designed for a completely different type of living.

So, now in the modern world, those feelings are misfiring, in my opinion.

So,

they're sort of not over.

I mean, if there was a button, we could just turn them off.

Yeah.

So, when you hear these terms like, you know, anger issues, depression, anxiety, do you think those are choices?

No, I wouldn't say they're choices.

I'm saying the way I deal with those is I try to ignore, like minimize their importance.

Okay.

They're definitely actually not choices.

They are,

like I said, they're genetic programming combined with your upbringing, combined with external stimuli

that causes those emotions.

And you almost have no control over it.

Right.

What I'd like to think I have some control over is how much importance i place on those feelings

so that's what i can control that makes sense were there any periods of your entrepreneurial journey that were really low points because people just see the stuff on social media but every entrepreneur i know you know high highs and low lows yeah exactly and uh there were times i mean my first startup i think we

practically thought we would shut down at least three times.

So wow, Zoosk?

Yeah.

Crazy.

Yeah.

We have at least three items

that I can think of.

That's crazy

because you ended up selling it for so much.

Yeah, it's like, it's like reviving it out of

like essentially

certain death.

Yeah.

So,

and that puts a mark, I mean, definitely leaves a mark.

And again, it's like going back, I'm like, okay, at the time, at least, it was like really impacting me.

My health was like even hit by it.

Like, Like, that was just so much stress.

And going back, I'm like, well, did my emotional reaction

help with resolving it?

The answer is no.

So, for example, fear as an entrepreneur, right?

So, you don't die if a business goes down.

It's not like you're actually, your life is in jeopardy.

Okay.

So,

fear is a misplaced feeling.

Having said that,

fear drives you to look for solutions.

Okay.

So maybe a little bit of it is okay, but you can't overemphasize it.

Okay.

Because it's not like your life is on the line.

Right.

So, especially in this country, pretty much you won't die from hunger.

So, I mean, some people, it's not like everybody's hard.

Right.

So

it's the way I think about it is like entrepreneurial emotions that come with entrepreneurship,

you don't want to completely ignore them, but you don't want to overemphasize it.

Yeah, I like that because people are really fearful, but at the end of the day, their life for the most part isn't on the line.

Yes, 100%.

Like we used to be back when we were in wars and stuff.

Yes, yeah.

So entrepreneurship back then would have been something like, oh, there's not enough crop or potatoes in my village to feed my family.

Let's all get together and just conquer like the land and stuff, right?

So there's an actual life or death scenario in that.

But in what we do, it's like nobody dies.

Absolutely.

Did you feel kind of lost after you sold the company?

Because I've heard this with founders that exit, they don't know what to do for 100%.

Yeah.

In fact, it's probably the

worst feeling that an entrepreneur can have as opposed after selling a business.

So

it feels like you could have done more.

It feels like

let a story end without putting a good ending at it.

So it just feels like it's empty.

Wow.

And how long did you feel like that?

It was,

I was against selling a company.

So,

but

so I want to say a few months.

A few months?

Okay, that's on the shorter end from what I've heard, but it was still a long time.

Yeah, well, I kept myself busy with the next one.

That's what we do as entrepreneurs.

We try to distract ourselves.

Yeah, it leaves a a hole in you and then you fill it up with the next business.

Yeah.

Wow.

So it's been fun.

Anything you want to close off with or promote?

I think people should check out deal.ai.

So it doesn't make share this one.

And I think, you know, going back to one thing you said earlier, I think

people thinking that they cannot succeed in life is because whatever reason.

Okay.

Whatever, like doesn't matter what.

Put a reason there.

I cannot win because black.

okay?

Is as is literally a self-limiting belief.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We live in a world of abundance, and especially with technology, and especially younger people,

should be able to make a good living by focusing, trying,

and taking advantage of the tools that are available to everybody.

I love those self-limiting beliefs.

You don't even notice them, but you really manifest those.

100%.

Yeah.

It's like, what doesn't that,

I don't want to hear what what your results.

If you say, I cannot succeed because of what it doesn't matter, you believe

that becomes itself in the practice.

So stop thinking that.

Yeah, and I used to think that way too.

That's why I can speak from the heart of this.

Once I stopped doing that, my life exploded.

Right.

Yeah.

So great, great advice.

Thanks for watching, guys.

Digital social hour.

As always, I'll see you next time.