Nicoletta Heidegger On Equine Therapy, Recovering from Sexual Trauma & Erotic Blueprint | DSH #215

So the classes were pretty in-depth.

You know, if you can imagine...

Experiential learning where you get to see people pretty much

you get to see a lot of things.

Oh equine therapy.

Equine therapy, yeah.

What is it?

Therapy for humans with the support of horses.

Horses?

Yeah.

People always laugh when I say I do therapy and equine therapy because they're like...

Totally different, right?

Welcome back to the show, guys.

Digital Social Hour.

I'm your host, Sean Kelly.

Today I have with me a sexologist, Nicoletta Heidegger.

How's it going?

Hey, so glad to be here.

Thanks for being willing to talk about this subject.

Yeah, I feel like it's something that needs to be shared more.

I feel like it was kind of taboo growing up to talk about and stuff, but now it's slowly slowly opening up more, right?

It's definitely getting better.

I mean, it still is a struggle.

You know, there's still a lot of shame and stigma around the field.

And obviously, social media and things, there's a lot of rules.

Yeah.

So you're a sexologist.

What exactly is that?

Basically, somebody who studies sexuality for a living.

So I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, but I wanted to specialize in human sexuality because most therapists get like little to no education in that.

And additionally, it's a subject that is near and dear to my heart.

So I got a second master's in human sexuality and made it my mission to help people feel less shame about pleasure.

Wow, I didn't know you can master in that.

Yeah, not just like someone at the bar who's like, I'm a master of.

But yes, you can actually get a master's and a PhD.

Really?

Which college was that at?

So there's only a few actually that feature this kind of degree.

I did it at a school called Widener, but there's only like two or three that have like certified programs that have higher education in it.

There's like other certification programs and lots of ways to be a sexologist.

But I chose to go like the clinical route to help people one-on-one.

Nice.

So how useful were the classes?

Because I remember taking sed in high school and it was kind of like a joke.

Focus.

Yeah.

Everyone laughed at it.

Like, you know what I mean?

This was much more in-depth.

And that's part of the reason why I'm specializing in it is because most people don't get comprehensive said, especially if they get it at all.

It doesn't include pleasure.

It doesn't include much.

It's sort of like, don't get pregnant.

Here's how that happens.

Here's the STIs that are out there.

And that's kind of it.

And so the classes were pretty in-depth.

You know, if you can imagine

experiential learning where you get to see people

see it?

You get to see a lot of things.

They have a special class that's called a sexual attitude reassessment, where they just kind of like try to shock you and like show you things that are really out there so that by the time you get into practice, nothing surprises you.

So there's very few times I'm surprised anymore.

Whoa.

So what are they exactly showing you in that?

I'm trying to like think about this.

For that specific class, they'll go into more of the taboo, sort of potentially illegal and unethical desires that people have.

Okay.

And so

it's a wide range, but it's supposed to sort of challenge your narrative about what is shameful so that you're able to help a variety of different kinds of people.

Interesting.

So what are some common problems you see your patients coming to you with in their lives?

Well, firstly, I just like want to normalize that we learn to do all sorts of things in this world.

Like you learn to drive a car from taking lessons.

And so there is absolutely no shame in needing to like learn how to be a better partner, a better lover.

I think I wish more people did it.

So I would say probably the main thing that I see is couples who have desire discrepancies.

So one of them wants different kind of and pleasure at a different time, in a different way,

with a different amount.

And so that's probably the most common thing I see for couples.

I also see a lot of people who experience unwanted pain during

so pelvic pain.

I see a lot of people like that, especially people with.

I also see a lot of folks who have never had a

or are just struggling to have the type of pleasure that they want.

So

experiencing before they want to or after they want to or not at all.

I see folks who are like on their gender journey.

So it's it's kind of all over the map.

But most common would be the desire discrepancy.

And what exactly does that entail?

I mean, this is sort of every partnership that I see because we're not the same people.

Everybody is going to have a different way that they experience pleasure, that they want to connect, the amount they want to be having it, the kind of pleasure and they want to be having.

And so this is usually a couple that comes in where one person is wanting it more in a different way and the other isn't.

And so they kind of get stuck in these boxes of like high libido, low libido.

And so it's my job to kind of like re-educate them, help them to expand their definition of and pleasure, figure out ways that they actually can be compatible and to learn each other's like sexual language basically.

So a lot of people think they're just like compatible or not, or like you have chemistry or you don't, or if you love somebody, it should come naturally.

And it's just not true.

It takes work, it takes practice, it takes intentional dedication.

And so I support people in learning those tools.

Right.

So it's not as black and white as people make it seem.

No, not at all.

Yeah.

There's so many, there's a lot of creative ways to connect with somebody, even if you're not perfectly aligning.

Yeah, I've seen some interesting ways.

Oh yeah, tell me what.

I have this one girl on that s you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

She heals you, heals your trauma through s ⁇ .

Hey, you know, I've.

I've heard, I've heard other things that fit in that alignment.

Some people need a good s ⁇ .

Yeah.

Yeah, you know, to each their own.

What do you think of s toys?

I prefer to call them tools because that's what I think they are.

I mean, toys are great.

Should be fun.

So yes, they're toys.

But I feel like a lot of people have struggled with them, especially.

Especially the dudes.

They sometimes think that they are

replacing them or intimidating or they'll say things like, well, I know how to please my partner.

We don't need that kind of stuff.

But I see s ⁇ toys or s ⁇ tools as like your best wing person or your best wingman

as just like a way to enhance pleasure.

So just like we use forks to eat differently, you use, you know, digital things to,

you know, increase your connection to people around the world.

Yeah.

Toys is just, you know, you only have two hands and one mouth.

So an enhancer.

Yeah.

Have you ever met someone that's asexual?

Yeah, absolutely.

Really?

I mean, it's, it's kind of a spectrum.

So most sexualities are a spectrum.

So for folks who don't know, asexual is somebody who

potentially doesn't experience a lot of

sexual like desire for other people.

And there's a whole range of that.

So some people who are asexual still have s ⁇ because they may like experience enjoyment with like the physical sensations, but they're not like desiring it with somebody.

And some people experience it rarely.

It's a whole spectrum and

probably more common than people would think since it is a spectrum.

I didn't know that.

I thought it was just people that didn't like having s ⁇ .

I mean, some of them might not not want to have it at all yeah um some of them might not be interested in it it's more about like the um attraction the sexual attraction to somebody um but even folks who have that some people on the spectrum are like i don't necessarily have this attraction but they then choose like other reasons to have they're like oh well i know this is like a fun way to connect with my partner or oh the physical sensation when it's happening feels nice but i wouldn't like think of wanting to do that in like a day-to-day setting.

Yeah, I feel that.

What about sapiosexuals?

I've never taken a test.

I think I am one.

I'm not.

How do you define it?

Attracted to intelligence.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that like turns me on, you know?

Yeah, totally.

There's a cool educator named Miss Jaya, and she has this thing called erotic blueprints.

Yeah.

And it's basically a quiz that you can take online that helps you kind of categorize what sort of turns you on and what your sexual language is.

So we all have different languages.

And this is what I was talking about with the desire discrepancy.

It's like the way it was kind of framed to me is like, if your erotic sexual language is like playing the drums and mine is like playing the flute, if we've never played music together, it might sound like if we try to play together, but if I learn your language, if I learn to appreciate your language, we can make beautiful music together.

And so, her framework kind of helps people figure out like what turns them on.

And so, for you, if it's you know, smarts or having your brain be massaged in a certain kind of way, um, that's great.

As long as your partner knows that, you can communicate that and figure out how to get that need met.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I just wonder, because I don't feel that way.

I mean, I feel like that in general, you know what I mean?

Like with people in general.

So I don't know if it's like sexually too, but.

Well, I imagine, I mean, when we say turned on, turned on just means your body is becoming like physically aroused to something.

It doesn't have to be like, I want to have

it could be like, I'm turned on because I'm like excited.

That's what I meant.

Yeah.

I call it like a soul boner.

So like you probably get turned on by doing this podcast, not like, I mean, maybe, maybe you're turned on in the erotic way, but not necessarily like, oh, I want to.

But I am feeling my nervous system is like my heart's beating faster.

My breath is shortening because I'm excited about something.

I'm kind of getting into that excitement.

So people get turned on by all kinds of things.

Sometimes it's sexual.

Sometimes it's something else.

I love that.

What did your parents think of?

your journey into this because I feel like our parents' generations were kind of more closed off about lives.

Yeah.

So were they supporting you?

You know, I got really lucky, and that's one of the reasons why I'm in this field is because my parents have been super supportive of me since the beginning.

Like growing up, they never really shamed me for like exploring my own sexuality.

Wow.

They, you know, when they found me like figuring out what

was or self-pleasure at an early age, they were just like, give her some privacy, you know?

And dating and things like that.

They were pretty open talking to me about things.

And so I wouldn't necessarily say they had like the clinical knowledge to really teach me things in depth.

And I learned a little bit in school, but this helped me not feel shame in talking about it.

So I kind of became the person that people would come to and talk about this stuff with.

And so even now, you know, they listen to my podcast, they come to my events.

Nice.

They're supportive.

I think, you know, at times maybe there's.

sections or parts where my dad is like, let's, I don't need to hear this.

But in general, I think they see that it's necessary and needed and wish they had had something like this.

So I'm, I, that's rare.

I would say.

I feel like that's super rare.

Super rare.

And that's why I want to help people because I feel like I kind of have this

more shame-free experience that I want to help other people have.

Nice.

What are your overall feelings towards watching adult content?

Like,

like, are you a fan of it?

Big fan.

Yeah.

So.

I am definitely a fan of adult entertainment stuff.

And I think it gets a bad rap, obviously.

I think there's a lot of people out there who say that

ruins, you know, young minds or ruins the s ⁇ s we have or addiction and things like that.

And

sure, in every field, there are maybe like systemic issues that could be coming up.

But in general, I think is a really valuable aspect of entertainment that shows people that if you're into it, somebody out there is into it.

And I like to kind of reframe the negativity around adult content that it's not the problem.

Lack of comprehensive f ⁇ ing education is the problem.

And what I mean by that is a lot of people scapegoat as the issue.

But the real issue is that people are not having

education that shows them what is reality.

And so there's a saying in my field that you wouldn't learn how to drive from watching the fast and the furious, just like you wouldn't learn how to have from watching.

So is entertainment.

It is, you know, sometimes there's amateur, more realistic stuff, but it's entertainment.

It's not reality.

And so if you teach young people or even adult people to have a discerning mind of what they're watching, like, oh, this is something that is entertainment, just like a movie that I'm watching, then they're going to be able to

kind of separate that and know what's real, what's, you know, what are real bodies, what's the diversity of bodies, all that stuff.

And so I see it as a problem of not offering comprehensive ed versus like the issue.

And

I actually have a podcast called Scholars and I interview a lot of folks in the adult entertainment world.

Oh yeah, interesting.

So if you had a boyfriend you wouldn't care if you watch

oh I we watch together oh together

I think it's fun well my partner and I sometimes I'll keep a list of like sometimes the videos I watch are just for me I'm like I don't want to share that with you yeah other times if it's something that I want to maybe show him that I like we keep like a notes list in our phone of like like favorite videos and I'll be like, check this one out.

Wow.

And I think it's so important to have a self-pleasure practice because your longest relationship is with yourself.

And so certainly if you're only doing

and not investing sexual connection in your partnership, in your relationship, then it might become problematic.

But if it's like in addition to, I think it can be something that can enhance your relationship.

Wow.

Because most people have the opposite view.

I feel like they're kind of closed off to sharing it or ashamed of it almost.

Well, yeah, I think, and this is some of the things I help people with, right?

Like people are ashamed.

They're embarrassed to share their stuff.

They also think that if their partner is watching

that it feels like they're cheating on them.

So, you know, every relationship is different.

This is just, I'm describing mine.

But I think, you know, that can mean that someone is having self-confidence issues.

And additionally, like I said, if someone hasn't had comprehensive s ed, they're not connecting with their partner,

them and their partner aren't talking about the kind of s ⁇ they want to be having and then they're just like avoiding with their partner and watching

I could see how that would feel really hurtful and problematic and that would be something folks would come to me to talk about right so I've seen a lot of studies on couples once they get married the amount of times they have every year yeah you just got engaged so yeah so it's something to keep in mind but like how do you think you can maintain numbers being with the same person for like 20 30 a long time i mean i try to invite people not to focus on quantity but rather quality

and so people who are focused on the quantity I'd be curious a little bit about that like what makes the numbers important are they actually enjoying the they want to be having right but a couple different things so

one again I would urge people and remind them that it is a practice great

is not something that just happens and continues over time if you love somebody it's not enough just to just to love somebody yeah so you have to put work and effort into it especially over time so take classes read books listen to podcasts, go to a therapist, go on a retreat, like put effort into it.

The second I would say is to redefine what and pleasure is.

I think a lot of people out there define it as penetration.

But if we can expand the definition to

kissing, cuddling, all kinds of things, there's a lot you could put on a pleasure menu that you could figure out.

taking that sexual blueprint thing so you can figure out like what is our language.

Oftentimes when people get together, they're attracted to like like an opposite of them.

And at the beginning, that's hot, that's sexy, that's exciting.

But then after time, you're like, why don't you like what I like the way that I like it?

And then people kind of misalign.

Another thing is to, this is kind of an Esther Perel thing, who's a in relationship therapist and author.

She talks about making sure that you maintain a little bit of distance with each other.

So keep some things,

yeah, like,

yeah, keep some things private and and not not in a secret keeping way but like if we become each other's like you know one person can't be our everything if we become each other's lovers best friends confidants family and we do everything together it's hard to create attraction when you become one entity because there's no room to attract yeah

interesting do you think when you have someone that you're connecting spiritually um i personally believe that i think some people don't it kind of depends on your blueprint and the way that you have s.

I also feel like I can have

or pleasure experiences with people that don't have a spiritual element.

But if I want to really connect with someone on a deeper level,

there's ways I can do that.

Interesting.

Yeah.

More like Tantra.

energy type work.

Now I'm fascinated.

You got to elaborate on this.

Yeah, well, we'll have to.

I'm sure we can do more episodes too.

So, I mean, some people consider to be like sacred for them, whether that be for religious reasons or other spiritual reasons.

Some people even believe that, you know, you're exchanging energy and like DNA contents with someone when you're connecting with them.

And so they feel like they want to be sort of pleasured on a soul level.

Right.

And so for folks who kind of need and want that, I imagine they're to be spiritual.

Other times, it's just, you know, it doesn't go that deep.

Yeah.

Literally,

I've gone down rabbit holes on this.

People think I'm crazy, but how come?

I mean, you'll see what I'm about to say.

So I've heard astral is the best feeling in the universe.

Like astral projections?

So when your souls are connecting.

Hey, look, I believe in all kinds of things, and I've seen people have what's called like energetic,

meaning they're not necessarily even naked.

They might not even be using penetration.

They're not having

in the traditional way, but they're experiencing

from no touch.

Whoa.

Or just mental stimulation or energetic stimulation.

So like I've seen it, I felt it.

And, you know,

I'm a little bit woo, but I'm also science.

And so

I see it.

It's research.

I believe it.

They even have done like MRIs of people who are doing things called thinking off, where they're like having

just without touch.

And it looks the same in the brain.

A woman named Barbara Corellis did that.

And she has a book called Urban Tantra.

So for folks who are interested to get into that,

it's out there.

No, I've seen YouTube videos of like binarial beats that you can achieve no hands.

Yeah.

And they have like millions of views.

And I read the comments and people are doing it.

Yeah.

But you know, some people aren't into that.

And so it's, I don't want to create a hierarchy where people are like, oh, you have to have this kind of for it to be good.

Like, if you're happy with the kind of you're having, great.

And that's another thing I tell couples to have great s for time too is what kind of s to you is worth having um a lot of people aren't having in their partnerships because they don't like the kind of they're having uh but they don't want to say it or or or tell their partner that yeah and so if you can like i wouldn't want to keep having if i was having that i wasn't wanting right so what kind of is worth it to you yeah what kind of is enjoyable enough what is good enough

have you seen any patients complain about ED because I see ads for it all the time and I heard it's pretty common but you know I think it's actually in the way we like define it in the diagnosis manual for mental health, it's actually maybe less common than people think, but a lot of people are sort of self-diagnosing it.

There are so many like very normal reasons why people experience, don't experience erections like when they want to be.

And so I think because of that,

because there isn't a lot of education, somebody who has a

who is like, I don't,

you know, I don't think this is normal, right?

It happens once, then they get anxious about it.

They haven't had education.

They think they have erectile dysfunction, as opposed to, we're not robots, we're human beings.

There's going to be a whole bunch of times when it's normal to not have this happen with a new partner, when you're anxious, when you're really tired, when you're stressed, if you're having some kind of trauma coming up,

just because it's a Tuesday, like who knows?

And so.

When people come in who are struggling with that, my first thing is I send them to a urologist who specializes in sexual medicine.

That person's gonna rule out any physical cause because we want to make sure there isn't something physically going on.

Once we rule that inner out, then they come to me and we get to work on the psychological and emotional piece.

Sometimes I'm just re-educating them that, like, you're normal and you don't actually have ED.

I know it's stressful and feels not good for you, so let's figure out what we can do about it.

And then, other times, sure, there are times when it becomes clinically

even more significant for somebody and you know then we work on it but i think a lot of it has to do with people comparing themselves to unrealistic expectations yeah i like that you said that because i feel like stress and anxiety kind of carries over to your life sometimes of course how could it not but i think in this culture we're taught that like if you're a man you should be able to whenever wherever at any time yeah um and so when that's not happening for somebody they think that there's something wrong with them yeah for real no that's so true and then anxiety is the worst if you're struggling with not having erections when you want.

And so if it happens one time, you get in your head.

And then that anxiety is like continuing the erectile difficulties.

Yeah, it's like a loop, right?

Yeah.

And a lot of doctors will just like give pills.

And, you know, sometimes that can give people their confidence back.

But I really prefer to help people get to the root cause.

For sure.

Because if we don't, you're just kind of putting a, you know, a band-aid over what's going on.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of those pills and they have some weird side effects too.

Yeah.

I I mean, look, some people need them and they can be really useful and helpful for folks, but let's make sure you actually need it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And part of that could be like low testosterone too.

Yeah, exactly.

That's why I send people to a doctor first to see like what's going on physically.

Are there hormone issues?

Is there a nerve thing going on?

Like some people who have like back issues can get like compression in their back.

That affects things.

And ED can also be an early sign of heart issues.

Wow.

And so it's important to take a look and see what else might be going on.

Yeah, interesting.

I saw on your website you had a tab called Equine Therapy.

Oh, equine therapy.

Equine therapy.

Yeah, what is that?

So equine therapy is therapy for humans with the support of horses.

Horses?

Yeah.

People always laugh when I say I do therapy and equine therapy because they're like...

What do you mean?

Totally different, right?

Oh, how do those two things go together?

But, you know, working with horses can be great for things like anxiety, trauma, relationships, all kinds of things.

So it's what we call an experiential type of therapy, which basically means instead of just talking about it, you're learning through experience.

So you get to kind of work on with the help of a non-judgmental creature kind of standing in for other.

people or things in your life.

And we get to like practice working through stuff in real time

with this very sentient, non-judgmental

horse that's great for a lot of things.

Interesting.

So, you're basically consulting them with the horse they're just observing?

So, it's funny.

So, it can look different.

Sometimes we do like a very specific activity.

Like, let's say somebody is struggling to work towards a goal in their life.

I might have them set up an obstacle course, and then their goal is to get the horse through the obstacle course.

And they, you know, state what their real-life goal is.

So, it's sort of like a metaphor okay but then while they're working through it you get to see what actually happens internally and externally for them when they come up against a problem let's say the horse doesn't want to walk with them or they get stuck or something happens you get to see what happens for them in real time and help them work through it in that moment as opposed to just talking about it

horses are also really good with something called co-regulation.

So sometimes they're just there to kind of be with us and co-regulation is basically when your nervous system matches another nervous system.

So like they help us kind of slow our heartbeat down, slow our breath down.

They have a lot of mirror neurons because they are prey animals

and they exist in herds or at least.

you know, initially when they evolved, existed in that.

Wow.

And so there's a lot they can kind of help us with to slow down, get present, be mindful,

and sort of practice things in real time.

Man, I'll try it out.

You know, I'm always down for new.

Hey, if you come to LA, I would love to host you for a practice session.

It's a little hard to explain.

I think you have to like do it to really see what it's about.

It's one of those things.

Yeah, I've tried out a few different therapies.

I just tried out past life therapy last week.

Have you done that?

Oh, like a past life regression?

Yeah.

What'd you think about it?

Loved it.

Did you do it?

I have done it.

Yeah, it's sick.

I mean, I, whatever works, you know, and I think if you're someone who like doesn't believe in past life stuff, that's fine.

Then you could say, okay, this is your unconscious creating some story for you that clearly has metaphors and themes and elements that you need to work through in this life now.

Yeah, it actually didn't work, which was funny, but that

it didn't work.

And she was really surprised because she's done hundreds of them.

She said that's never happened.

Whoa.

She said, maybe this is your first life.

No, no, it wasn't.

I'll tell you why.

But basically, it didn't work.

She said my brain was either too active or my conscious mind was blocking my subconscious from coming through.

But she's done hundreds and that's never happened.

Yeah.

Were you disappointed?

Yeah, I was disappointed, but then that night in my dreams, I saw my dad who passed away.

So I was like, whoa, something did happen.

That's not a coincidence.

I keep a dream journal.

Oh, thanks for sharing that.

Yeah.

And then

I tried it again with a different person like a few days later and it worked.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, look, even if something doesn't quote unquote work, I think it gives us like grist for the mill, right?

So let's say you did that, you invested in it, and then you were disappointed.

Then we get to like, you know, if I was your therapist or working with you in that setting, then we get to explore like what other areas of your life do you feel disappointed?

Yeah.

Like, how is it for you when you think something's going to help and then it doesn't help?

Or how is it for you when you have an expectation for something and then it doesn't happen?

Or when your brain gets in the way of trying to like tap into a spiritual thing.

So it to me, it's all things we can work with.

Yeah, for sure.

So you mentioned earlier a lot of people come to you with problems of not achieving them.

Yeah.

How common is that?

Because

I would say it's a lot more common for people with

that.

I knew, but like, I see these numbers online.

I don't know what to believe, you know?

Yeah, well, there's a lot of research on it.

A lot of people have done research on it, but someone that comes to mind, her name is Dr.

Lori Mintz.

She wrote a great book called Becoming Cliterate, which I would recommend.

Clever name.

But she's done a lot of research on this as well.

So you can actually see the numbers.

But she talks a lot about what we call the or gap, which is basically that,

you know, people with

experience or

a lot less than people with,

especially during first-time sexual encounters.

And the reason for that is because in our culture, there's sort of this hierarchy where penetrative is seen as like the best form of.

But most people who have a

don't experience

from penetration alone.

It's only about like maybe five to ten percent.

I think don't quote me on that number, but it's about five to ten percent of people who experience

just with penetration.

That's it.

That's it.

So most of the population need clitoral stimulation, simulation, other parts of their body.

And a lot of times that's not happening during

where women are having penetration before their body is really like aroused enough or ready.

And then people aren't talking about it, saying what they need and want.

And here we have a gap.

Can't believe it's that low.

They don't teach you that.

5%.

Yeah.

And a lot of people fake it.

I did hear that.

Man.

Unfortunately.

Yeah, it helps us.

But there are people with who struggle with this too.

And I often see it where, so actually for someone who

is separate from or

you can have it without a

you can adjust without a

and so some people will like not feel the way they want to feel um even though they're like

interesting yeah man this was fascinating i learned a lot.

We crammed a lot in there.

This was a good quickie.

Not bad.

Yeah, it was a quickie.

Anything else you want to get across or close out with?

Like I said before, like I just really want to encourage people to take the time to learn this.

That like I believe that pleasure is a human right and you deserve to have more pleasure.

And if you're interested in learning more about that, you can find me on Instagram at Therapy with Nicoletta or my podcast, Instagram,

Scholars, or through that podcast.

I see clients in California, but I also, for people who don't live in California, I host a lot of retreats.

So I'm hosting one coming up in August and October that you can find on my Instagram for people who have barriers to pleasure and connection.

But yeah, you deserve pleasure, and I hope that you take the time to learn it and get connected with yourself.

And

yeah, thanks for having me.

Yeah, thanks for coming on.

Thanks for watching, guys.

And I'll see you next time.