Chance Kornuth: How He Lost a Quarter Million — And Rebuilt | DSH #1528

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My pattern recognition is one of the skills that I'm pretty good at.

And there was this like knit.

Knit is like a really tight player.

You would randomly play a hand, and he was trying to get it to be the other player's idea to get action.

So he would do something uncharacteristic, justify it, and then put in money.

I had ran my roll back up to 250, quarter million or something, and like lost it all in the game and had to rebuild again.

Fortunately,

All right, guys, we got Chance here during the World Series in Vegas.

He's already had a good start, and hopefully, it continues, right?

Yeah, I mean, come out here every year for six, seven weeks, and it's time to shine.

I love it.

And your family's in China while you're playing out here.

Yeah, wife and kid just made it there.

They're exploring somewhere in mainland, not sure, but yeah.

How's your Mandarin game?

Oh, it's terrible.

I speak like 50 words, maybe.

And whenever I say something, my wife tells me I say it wrong.

Yeah.

A lot of people say it's the toughest language to learn.

Yeah, I've heard that like some of the the Sanskrits are like a five on the scale, which is the highest, and Mandarin is a four.

But I don't know.

I think it's impossible.

Yeah, I'm half Chinese and I can't speak it if it makes me feel better.

Makes me feel a lot better.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's tough, man.

But what's your game plan for this World Series?

Anything different from previous World Series?

No, I mean, the last three summers, I've stayed at a friend's house off strip in Summerlin.

It's got a sauna cold plunge, hot tub, pool.

So it's like a pretty dreamy situation.

And fortunately, I get to stay there again.

Yeah.

Thanks, David.

And yeah, just do the same thing I do every year.

Yeah.

It's important to decompress after playing 14 hours straight, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's grueling.

And like days where you are card dead, it's a lot harder, I think, because you're just sitting there and time just like crawls.

But when you're in every pot and like

battling with everyone, I think time goes a lot faster.

That makes sense.

How common are those days where you're card dead?

Is that a common thing you experience?

Yesterday was actually probably the most card dead I've been in a while.

Like it was a full 12-hour day and it felt like it was 18, 20 hours.

Damn, you only played a couple of good hands.

No, I mean, I still play more than most people, but for me, my

qualifier is much lower than the average poker player.

Yeah.

I'm playing a lot more hands, so in a lot more interesting spots and having to think my way through them.

But yesterday it was just like, all right, 7-3-0.

I guess wonderful.

Keep going all in.

You're more focused on coaching these days, right, than playing?

Yeah, my family and I moved to Nashville about two and a half years ago.

And I'm working on, you know, a lot of chip leader coaching stuff and we just launched a

really cool private inner circle group with myself Alex Fox and Kristen Foxon and so we've been focused a lot on that and doing some other stuff inside of chip leader and then I'll still travel out here for six weeks a year and then probably about six weeks a year other than that traveling so

three quarters of my year is focused on family and company wow are you worried about giving out all your secrets like do you feel like that could spread and bite you in the ass down the road i mean yes and no like poker is a zero sun sum game but like one of the issues I always have with poker is we're not really giving anything back to the community.

We're just like taking it away.

And I always wanted to be a teacher.

I had two math teachers in my life who were incredibly influential,

one of which encouraged me to drop out of college my senior year and pursue poker.

And, you know, I always wanted to teach.

I enjoy it.

Like we just had a student win the Mystery Bounty for a million dollars yesterday.

Like that feels good.

You know, I get goosebumps just like thinking about it.

That's awesome.

You know, so it allows me to give back to something that's given me so much.

Like I found my wife in poker.

She used to deal.

You know, I've made a career.

I've traveled the world and I'm enjoying seeing other people succeed in it.

Was there a lot of gatekeeping when you were up and coming, like trying to find coaching and mentors and stuff?

Yeah, I mean, it was much less common than it is now to have like coaching sites and stuff like that.

But there was a lot of content out there even from when I started.

Okay.

That makes sense.

Foxon was your first student, which is a crazy first student to have, huh?

Yeah, we used to do a coaching for profit where like we would take a percentage of what people cash for.

Yeah.

And I was looking for one more guy and I was playing with him at the table and I played with him for like 15 minutes and I was like, man, this guy has what it takes.

And I asked if he wanted to chat on break and kind of the rest is history.

Mr.

Miyagi's story, like the student has become the master and now him and I make the vast majority of the content together.

That's insane.

Yeah, it's fun.

He's one of the most fun players to watch.

Oh, I couldn't agree more.

Like he makes the game exciting.

He does.

Like he just goes to absolute war.

You never know what he's going to do.

It's, it's fantastic.

Yeah.

Now you've seen so many hands.

Does anything faze you or surprise you at this point?

Not really.

I would say, like, in general, I know like the options that are on the table.

You know, sometimes something would be a low frequency and you see it happen, but sometimes he finds certain bluffs or value bets that I wouldn't necessarily find, different sizings, right?

But it's those like subtle intricacies.

Like if you're expecting a bet and then they bet a slightly different size than you would expect, it's not super surprising.

Yeah.

When the solvers became, I guess, mainstream, was that a big adaptation phase for you or did you kind of adopt it quickly?

I always kind of like mentally solve is how I like to think about it, where the solvers actually made people a lot worse for quite some time where they don't,

it's like an excuse for them to just do what the solver says and not think.

You know, in reality, we're playing against an individual human at all times and no one that we're playing against, maybe one out of 10,000 people play exactly like a solver or even close to it.

And so we should be adjusting to the best of our ability to exploit that person that we're playing against.

And so if you're thinking too much, like what would the solver do here and not thinking about who am I playing against, then you're leaving a lot of meat on the boat.

I love that.

Yes.

So you kind of change your style depending on who you're playing against.

Yeah, absolutely.

Sizings, buff frequency, value better frequency.

Is that your main strategy thing, being able to read people?

Yeah, I think like being dynamic and making those adjustments in game is one of my strongest attributes.

And physical reading, physically reading people is definitely one of my best as well so you're better in person than online uh yeah definitely and like people always ask me like what's the difference and i'm like well there it's the same game live just offers the additional element of information being able to look at your opponent yeah have you accomplished everything you wanted to in the game of poker uh i would say yes you know i've i've traveled the world i won poker tournaments on three continents and damn life's been pretty darn good to me.

I can't complain.

And, you know, if there's one thing I want to do, it's win the WSOP main event, the biggest, most coveted tournament ever.

And I think I will win it eventually.

It's just

on my list of to-dos, I guess.

But, you know, it's a 10,000-person tournament.

So I wouldn't say that it's something that

I need to accomplish in poker to make my career feel complete.

You made a deep run last year, and then you got unlucky on that one hand.

All right.

Yeah, that was actually two years ago.

Oh, two years.

Yeah,

my last two deep runs in it.

I ran Ace King into aces.

Once I got 16th and once it was in like

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80th or something.

It makes you wonder how much luck is needed to win the main event these days.

I mean, a ton.

You know, even if you have a massive skill edge, you still have to beat 10,000 people.

You know, if your individual entry is worth 10 and your 100, you know, and your $10,000 is worth $100,000, you still only win it one in a thousand.

And so

it's pretty difficult to take it down to that.

Yeah.

When Helmuth came on, there was a viral clip of him saying how he's not going to play in the main anymore because it's a stamina issue.

I'm not sure if you've seen that.

Oh, yeah.

I interviewed him for a podcast of mine.

I don't know if we posted it yet.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So I guess he's not playing in the main anymore.

He is.

Oh, he is?

Yeah.

So he recently did a Twitter poll where he said,

I'll do with whatever the results say to play or not to play.

And

someone actually went and created a bot or bots to go and vote the don't and then called him a liar for not listening.

But like, obviously public wanted Phil to play.

I understand what he did, trying to get the structure adjusted.

It's more favorable for the older crowd.

And it didn't work and he's still playing.

And that was kind of my perception of the play.

Yeah.

Have you run into that issue yet of energy?

Yes and no.

I take anywhere between like one and four days off during the summer, kind of listen to my body and depending on how that goes.

But I work really hard on mental focus, physical fitness, pre-WSOP to prepare for it.

It's something that's required in my opinion.

Yeah, people don't realize, but that mental capacity, it's tough.

Like I'm a chess player and playing eight hours of chess straight, like you're exhausted by the end.

Yeah, absolutely.

Even though you're just sitting there.

And even like, that's one of the biggest differences between me and other poker players is like a lot of poker players, you'll notice if you're walking around the casino, like they'll fold their hand, they'll look at their phone, hold their hand, look at their phone.

But if you really want to be to maximize your edge, you actually need to pay attention after you fold and look at your opponents, gather live tells, information, bet sizing tells, stuff like that.

And I think that that's one of the things that separates me from other players is the desire to try hard and focus at all times.

I love that.

Did you ever find out if you had a tell on yourself and you had to fix it or adjust it?

Absolutely.

Self-awareness is one of the most important things for picking up tells on others.

It's like, wow, I noticed that I was doing this when I was weak.

It's like, I wonder if other people do that.

Because most tells are like subconscious physicalities.

And then eventually you become aware of those

things.

And so if you notice things that you do when you're strong or weak, whether it's unintentional or intentional, once you notice, you can start looking for that in others.

Wow.

That's so cool.

That's the part of the game I like.

Yeah.

The mind game.

It's, I mean, early in my career, I remember I was playing some $1,600 tournament in Blackhawk, Colorado.

It's like 200K for first.

And I 4-bet shoved the Queen Ado.

against this guy and he asked me if I would fold if or if I would show if he fold.

And I was like, man, I don't want to show this hand thinking to myself and uh I'm like no I can't do that and he calls with pocket tens flaps a boat and I'm out and so like instead of thinking about like why did I make such a big punt like this isn't the right hand combo to do this with I sat there and when I would think about stuff like

what could I have done to get him to fold it's like oh I should have said I'll show you one you'll know what I have or like something like that and so a lot of poker players like would think about what the right hand to do something with is and early in my career i would always think about how could i have gotten him to make the decision i wanted him to yeah and uh it hurt me in some ways because i was naturally trying to you know try too hard i guess you could say uh and instead of waiting for the spots to come to me i would force it sometimes but i learned a lot about live tiles and uh now i'm a little more harnessed in the area and uh

yeah it's a fun facet of the game yeah that's a cool story so i've heard you're never supposed to respond to questions right when you're when you're in the middle of a hand uh i think most people should not respond i do think that if you have a strong perception on a or a strong belief on how your opponent will perceive what you say

then you can can go for it i love that yeah you're playing chess out here you're thinking like what they're thinking yeah i mean i think that like live tells or the fake live tells is effectively just like a big rock paper scissors match yeah where it's like if he thinks i do this then you know it's Make yourself look nervous, right?

When you have a good hand.

Or when you're bluffing because he knows that I wouldn't actually look this nervous.

And like, so it's like a a leveling war.

Yeah.

Who's like your, do you have any rivals you consider?

Someone you go back and forth with all the time?

I would say lately, probably Artur Marker Ozian.

He just won the 25k heads up.

I saw that.

He's bested me a handful of times recently.

You know, fantastic player.

But there was once where Jeremy Osmas actually stacked me three times in one tournament in one day.

And like a 3K six max or something a summer or two ago.

But in general, like, you know, it's just a small sample where something like that happens.

Like in the long run, it's pretty unlikely for someone to hold over you for a long time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm sure at your skill level, everyone's about the same.

So it's just back and forth, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Like there was a while, maybe like a year, year and a half, where I just ran so good against Alex Foxon where I just won every all-in, had kingsman, he had queens, like just absolutely destroyed him.

It's evened out a reasonable amount since then.

In three or four all-ins or something like that, even in big spots, like someone's likely to hold or hold over the other one.

That makes sense.

That must be interesting playing against someone you coach so intensely.

Yeah, I mean, and now I would say that he probably coaches me as much as I coach him.

Like, we discuss a lot of stuff together.

If I have a question, I ask him.

But whenever you have that much knowledge of the opponent's game, it really is just a leveling war of

how much

you know about each other.

What's the most memorable win you've had?

Was it a World Series one?

Probably my first bracelet.

I would say to this day, the 5K PLO 2010 was

just remembering that

turn card comes and it was a coin flip all in on the flop.

Turn card comes.

I'm 95%.

And all my friends in rail were like getting super close.

I'm like holding them back.

And the river is a brick.

And I win.

I just grab my bracelet.

Everyone lifts me up.

And there was an ESPN 360 camera.

And you could go back and watch it.

I don't know where the tape is now.

But that was definitely the most surreal win, and nothing really compares to that.

Yeah, that was 2010, right?

Wow, so you've been playing in the World Series for a long time.

Yeah, I think that this might be my 18th or 19th.

Dang, because I played a couple events when I was 21,

like because I turned this month and I played a main event, satellite

1K to the 10k main event.

I got an Aces Days, King of Spades.

He flopped a flush, turned paired the board, and it breaked.

And so I still remember hands from like way back then.

And

that was 2020, I guess.

Damn.

Yeah.

Lots changed since then, huh?

19 years.

Yeah, the skill level has probably gone up a lot, I'd imagine.

Yeah, absolutely.

And that's the interesting thing about poker where like

overall, I would say that there's a higher ratio of pros to recs.

The recs are better.

The pros are better.

So you really do have to like...

Stay ahead of the curve.

You have to work hard on your game.

How much are you studying other people's game?

Or are you just mainly analyzing your game?

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Thank you.

I do watch others as a form of learning, whether it's a Triton final table or WSOP high roller type of stuff, whether it's reviewing final tables or students' hands and stuff like that, realizing where people are weak and strong.

Yeah, I mean, I think that one of the best things I do for studying is just like teaching.

They say that's the quickest way to learn even more, like when you teach it, when you verbally speak it.

Yeah, absolutely.

And it solidifies the pieces of the game that I think are the most important.

And it kind of reminds me to focus on those.

Yeah.

What's the biggest game you've played in?

Was it a Triton?

From a buy-in perspective,

I played the 500K tournament in the Bahamas like this last year in the December.

and got to cash it fortunately.

Nice.

But like poker is a funny game where like I cashed the 500k for like 900 or a million or something like that and then everyone's congratulating me the whole trip But they didn't realize that I busted four bullets in the 100k after that two or three bullets in the 50k and like a bunch of bullets in the 25k and like had I not swapped with Fox and would have won the 100k I would have actually had a losing trip everyone's sitting there like congratulating me and I'm like thanks

barely made anything it's like I'm down money and then he like wins the next day and I'm like okay I'm up money again you can congratulate me again that's poker though right very up and down yeah and that's kind of like one of the interesting things about poker is like people don't see how hard it can be sometimes.

You know, it's like absolute battle, and like you could go

many bullets with uh rebuys, entries, buy-ins without cashing and making money.

And uh, even if you are one of the better players in the field, like there's still a lot of variants.

Do you still get tilted?

Do you still feel like you can't control it sometimes?

I wouldn't say can't control it.

Like, the amount that I tilt has definitely decreased over the years.

Like, I work hard on my mental game.

Yeah, I currently currently have a performance coach.

You know, there's,

yes, things that upset me from time to time,

but it's not, it's more about like mentally resetting, not letting those emotions control your play at the table, stuff like that.

So, I mean, I would say that no one is, Tommy Angelo is like my first mindset coach, and he said that no one can be tiltless, but everyone can tilt less.

Wow.

And I'm

that's deep.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm deep into poker now and studying and, you know, all that jazz.

So I would say I tilt less, but it's impossible to be absent of it.

Yeah.

When I see photos of you at the table or videos, you're always smiling.

Yeah, I'm lucky, I think, that I enjoy my job.

I like people.

I like chatting with others at the table.

And

I'm pretty good at turning it off and putting on my poker face when it's time to play a hand.

Yeah.

Performance coach.

Wow.

Is that a new thing that players are doing?

Hiring a mental performance coach?

I wouldn't say new.

Like, it's been around forever.

And, you know, know, whether you're, I don't necessarily consider poker a sport, but it has a lot of similar elements that sports have.

And in anything competitive where you have to play your best, you

a lot of the people at the highest levels do work on the mindset aspect of it.

Why don't you consider it a sport?

I'm curious.

I said more that I'm not sure that it's a sport.

Okay.

Like, I do think it has a lot of similarities, but for me, for some reason,

sports are more active.

Yeah, I could see that argument.

Would you, so you wouldn't consider chess a sport?

Ooh, slippery question here.

They got you in trouble here.

I mean, honestly, I'm just not sure.

Like, I can see both being sports.

Like, you're competing, right?

And so, like, if chess is a sport, then naturally, so is poker.

So, is like probably competitive video games and stuff like that.

Yeah, these sports, right?

Yeah.

So, I guess, like, it would be considered a sport.

Yeah.

Is there anything outside of poker you're elite you would consider yourself elite in, like, top 1%?

Or did you go all in on poker?

Probably teaching.

Teaching.

Yeah, I think that like when I first started coaching seven, eight years ago, I was really uncomfortable with like group calls and one-on-ones and stuff like that.

But I've come a long way since then.

I'm really good at figuring out what level my students are on and using the correct vocab that they can understand the

information that you're passing along.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

I've noticed a lot of the top poker players are introverts.

So maybe that was part of it.

Yeah, maybe.

I'm

like, I think in the ground, you use the term extroverted and he's an extrovert.

Yeah, both, I guess, right?

Yeah, we're like, I do like people to a degree, like for the most part.

But it's like draining for me to be around everyone.

Like at the end of the day, like I thoroughly enjoy just like.

chilling in my bed, watching a movie, falling asleep, you know, maybe spending time with my like wife and kid.

Yeah.

But like big groups are not necessarily my thing.

So it's draining for me to be at the poker table and do that smiley.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Like I still enjoy it, but there's times where I'm like, okay, I'm ready for this conversation to be over.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely been there before.

Yeah.

So it sounds like you lean more towards introvert then.

Yeah.

I'd say definitely like have characteristics of each.

When you're coaching, is it all one-on-one or is it group or how does that work?

I do both.

Yeah.

I do some one-on-ones.

I do some group coaching and then we create some digital products.

And what have you seen in your top students?

What similarities?

Because you've probably coached hundreds of people by now, maybe thousands.

Work ethic is certainly one thing that stands out.

I would say the ability to think outside the box

and to kind of understand the concept of

if someone does X, then there's a response to it.

You know, if someone is too tight, I need to play more hands.

If someone is too loose, I play tighter.

That's like a very simple version.

And there are some,

a ton of intricacies

surrounding that.

And like I have a student who

just won a tournament in San Diego, one of my one-on-one students.

And the way that they ask questions, like the

students that I think really have a ton of potential or some that I'm not so sure about.

Yeah.

They just ask questions where you can tell they're thinking about the game where it's like, yeah, but if they do this, I do this, right?

And it's like, yes.

you know it's like it does simplify it quite a bit

what's what's the learning curve like if someone doesn't even know how to play poker Can they become good within five years?

Or what have you seen, I guess, historically?

Yeah, I think they absolutely could.

You know, I think that intelligence is a ceiling in poker.

You know, I genuinely do believe that.

But I think that anyone, whether they're smart, not, don't have the right characteristics, can become pretty freaking good at poker in five years.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah, I could see that.

I guess because I didn't know how to play chess and now I'm top 1% within three years.

so i'd imagine poker could be similar yeah i mean i'm sure you immersed yourself in it right yeah eight hours a day yeah full-time job pretty much like i remember when i was like grinding back in the day i used to dream about poker hands wow and i literally i woke up and i like called my best friend like my founding partner for chip leader coaching actually and i was like hey let me ask you about this hand i played in my dreams and he just like started laughing he's like all right what is it and like it was just a silly plo hand but

I used to like eat, dream, you know, everything.

You were locked in.

I was constantly thinking about poker.

Yeah, I closed my eyes.

I'm seeing board textures.

And when you immerse yourself in something and you're doing it for 80 hours plus a week, like that's you know, just how it was for me.

Yeah.

And now you're playing with the guys you used to dream about.

Must be a full 360 for you, right?

Yeah, for sure.

What's it like playing against Ivy?

Um,

I mean, Ivy has always been my

like goat poker player.

Yeah, um, the one that I admired, the one that I've always wanted to play with.

And then a couple of summers ago, I

made a big call down against him and was right.

And that was a pretty surreal moment for me.

And,

but yeah, in general, him and I have become like pretty good friends over the past few years.

And he's a great guy.

You know, that works for me in some other areas of my life.

And I can't say enough nice things about him.

I'm always impressed with the longevity of guys that could do it for 20 years like that.

Yeah, I mean, him and Negranu and Helmuth, or I don't care what some of of the young egotistical pros say about them not being good.

Like,

they are impressive.

Like, these guys are getting up there in years and they are still competing at the highest levels for the most part.

And I think it's incredibly impressive.

Do you still like, do you feel like you're still getting better even with age and getting older?

Yeah, absolutely.

I don't think I've peaked yet.

Yeah.

I wonder when that peak is for poker players.

Yeah, that's a good question.

Because Ivy's still pretty good.

Maybe he peaked already.

I'm not sure, but these guys are in their 40s now, right?

Yeah, definitely.

Interesting.

I mean, he told me it's like 57, I want to say.

What?

Yeah.

I could be wrong.

He does not act that age.

I was just with him at F1.

He told me to stop asking poker players if he's the GOAT because no one says his name.

He told me to stop doing that.

I don't know.

I think they're kind of crazy to think like, it just depends like what scale you're measuring on.

If you're scaling on bracelets and tournament success, like it's pretty hard to not say that he is yeah he's got what 16 uh maybe 17 16 might be right yeah 10 more than second place I believe like Negrany's probably done the most for poker of anyone you know I think that Ivy if you look at like cash games and tournaments combined would be the goat you know and

I would expect that

people

pass them by eventually just like any other goats right you know you're not going to be the greatest forever yeah where do you see poker going because i know the streaming stuff's hot right now.

Do you see it more going towards that, like with the cash games and the big live streams?

Or

yeah, to an extent.

I'm really interested to see how WSOP, like World Series of Poker fields pan out this year.

I feel like the economy might be shifting slightly downward, and I'm curious if that will show in the size of the fields and stuff like that.

Yeah.

I'm curious now, too, because the casinos have been struggling out here.

Yeah, a lot.

That's usually the first sign of a recession.

Yeah.

So do you keep an eye on things like that?

You know, like, I think that to some degree, my income via poker is recession-proof.

Wow.

I think that, like, yeah, games might be a little bit tougher, but there's still going to be tournaments.

Like, I can still go and play things that I'm making money in in the long run.

Yeah.

Do you want to shift more towards the coaching or do you want to do a 50-50?

How do you see that plan out in the future?

Yeah, I am working on shifting my

primary source of income from playing to coaching.

You know, I've had three fantastic years the last three years, and I haven't really played a ton this year so far, you know, other than WSOP, and I will play a lot more in the fall.

But I have a kid that's four and a half now, and I love being there for her and going to dance recitals and random stuff like that.

And, you know, I don't want to need to travel and play when I'm in my 50s.

Yeah.

You know, I do want to start diversifying and starting other businesses and stuff like that.

What age are you going to teach her how to play poker?

I don't know that I will.

Like, I don't, like, I just, I don't know.

Like, poker is still a very misogynistic sport.

And

I think that, like, that's something I think about for myself is like,

if I were as successful at anything else as I am at poker, I would be considerably more successful than I am today.

And I always wondered what my ceiling or path would be like if I had chosen something else.

And don't get me wrong, like, life's not just about money.

You know, like, I got to travel the world.

I met my wife.

I've done a lot of incredible things.

But from a monetary perspective, I don't know that I want that for my daughter.

You know, just being around men all the time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause what is it?

Like 95% dudes?

Probably.

That's pretty nuts.

Yeah.

Plus, it's a very up and down lifestyle that you need good mental resilience to have to make it in poker, especially over decades, I feel like.

Yeah, absolutely.

And like losing 100K doesn't feel or like hurts more than winning 100K.

And so like you have to be very mentally and emotionally disconnected from the losses.

Right.

I'm sure you've seen a lot of people come and go in your time.

Yeah, absolutely.

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Much money go broke.

Yeah.

How calm is that?

Like the people you started playing with in your early college years and stuff, or how many of them are still around, I guess?

Doesn't sound like

not many.

I mean, I think Ben Lamb's still fantastic.

Like, he was like my first real poker friend.

I started playing with like a couple of other guys that don't really play much anymore, to my knowledge.

But I met Ben when I was 22 and fantastic poker player, started a online casino recently called Yeet.

And so I know that he still plays a little bit, but not nearly as much as he used to.

Did you ever almost call it quits at any point?

Did you almost quit?

No, I never did actually.

You never got close to quitting?

No.

Wow.

Like I, after Black Friday, which in poker world is when the Department of Justice froze full-tail poker stars and whatever the other one was, ultimate bet yeah and uh

we had to find other ways of playing like most of my money was frozen online i didn't get it for a long time i had to rebuild my bankroll from nearly zero you know from like 10 or 20k after having hundreds of thousands it was all frozen online and uh that was pretty hard and i guess it i'm sure it entered my mind then at some point yeah but i was architectural engineering in college and i knew i didn't want to do that so i either had to figure out something else to do or continue with poker.

Yeah, you were one semester away.

Yeah.

You were right at the finish line for that.

Yeah.

And thank the Lord I didn't finish.

Like, I just had no desire to do the options that that provided.

Yeah.

So you were a good student, huh?

I mean, it was, I was fortunate because in engineering, like my first math teacher in high school kind of pushed me to do engineering instead of business.

And

it was easy for me.

Like, you know, it was all math-based and pretty lucky at math or good at math rather.

And that, uh,

But the

engineering specialty that I chose just wasn't for me.

I don't know if any other ones would be, but I really enjoy business.

I really enjoy trying to grow chip leader coaching as well as some other businesses that my friends and I are working on in Nashville.

And

that optimization is something that really attracts me to business a lot more than engineering.

Yeah, that makes sense.

You're good at math, which is important in poker, right?

So you pretty much know the percentages on on where you're at at all times yeah and like

that's kind of the interesting aspect of it it's because like i know what i have what the board is and what my opponent's range is the collection of hands that they could possibly be holding uh and then what my equity is verse that range and that's kind of how you make decisions wow

that's impressive so you're doing a lot of calculating Yeah, and it's like kind of subconscious now, keeping track of the size of the pot, seeing what they're betting, knowing the odds I'm getting is,

you know, it's kind of to reference Matt Damon and rounders, it's like breathing for me.

You know, it's like that part is not where I spend my mental RAM.

It's just like almost autonomous.

And then my mental RAM is trying to gather tells, think about their turn betting frequencies, the stage of the tournament I'm in, stuff like that.

I love it.

Are you part of the camp that wants masks banned at the table?

I don't really give a shit.

You don't think it affects the tells or whatever?

No, not really.

I mean, it does affect the tells in some way if people want to cover up, but like wearing a mask for 12 hours a day every day, like can't be good for your eyes so take the edge

enjoy it wear the mask what about sunglasses you don't care about those uh no i mean sunglasses have pros and cons uh the pros of wearing sunglasses are your opponents can't see where you're looking you kind of feel a little more invincible yeah more confident uh the cons are

You can't give off fake tells.

You can't do stuff with your eyes and try to trick your opponents into doing what you want.

And it's also like wearing dark sunglasses at the table for hours on end is actually terrible for your eyes.

Um, there are some like other brands of things that are like lighter and mirrored that won't hurt your eyes long term.

If you are going to wear sunglasses at the table, definitely get those.

There's one player I want to ask you about, he's coming on next week, a very controversial player, uh, Martin Cabrel.

Yeah, nice.

What's it like playing against him?

Because I know he gets under a lot of people's skin.

Yeah, I mean, he used to get under my skin a ton.

And honestly, uh, when I thought he was cheating at the final table of the 250K,

um, he got the best of me because he got under my skin so much.

But then once I realized, and this is my perception of the situation,

I'm fairly certain that he was, and again, just my opinion,

trying to get people to cheat to gain an edge, right?

Like, if you think I'm cheating and I'm marking the cards, you're going to be afraid to bluff me.

Well, if I know you're afraid to bluff me, then I can basically just fold rivers or like,

yeah.

I can three-bet bluff and you're never going to four-bet bluff, like stuff like that.

And

I think that it's a very slimy shady way to try to gain an edge yeah and uh it shouldn't be allowed you know and i think his antics have changed a lot and uh when he notices that he's getting under people's skin he takes it further and further and further uh now i definitely have been getting the better of him in that mental exchange in the last uh couple of years since then and uh it's it's quite fun he was the first person i've seen really rage bait people on purpose like that in poker yeah absolutely and he's fantastic at it, you know, and like, that's not a

strength or an area of the game I want to excel at, you know, but to each his own, I don't know.

Yeah, I don't want to talk bad about him just to each his own.

Yeah, very interesting guy.

Yeah.

You know, definitely fascinated by someone like that.

He's very polarizing.

Very.

Yeah.

I noticed a lot of pros do not like him.

Yeah, and I don't mind him now at all.

Now that I know he's not like cheating and like I'm just going to get under his skin instead of letting him get under mine.

And it it brings me actually joy.

Yeah.

Probably because he got under my skin so bad in the past but now that the shoes on the other foot it feels pretty good i had dan smith on he said he got under his skin too yeah he's just good at that yeah i mean i think dan might have been the only player at the table at that 250k that

called him out took it worse than me oh no he like dan freaked out you know like i was pretty upset too but dan took it to the next level and understandably so like like he and i at the time thought we were being cheated in a 250 000 event did they any rule changes come from that Because he was standing up and like staring at the cards, right?

That was the whole ordeal.

I don't think a rule change, but like this year at the WSOP, they

are giving him like shortened clocks.

Like when everyone's aware of your antics and the amount of time that you effectively steal from your opponents by taking as long as he does, they're giving him like 10 seconds to act on his hands and stuff like that.

And like, yeah, it's, it's honestly a good way of doing it.

Like think of it like a the optimal form of poker would be to have a chess clock where if I act immediately every decision and then I need eight minutes to think like, well, I kind of earned it.

I haven't used any of my time yet.

Right, right.

But when he uses 45, 60, 75 seconds every single decision, you're stealing the time from the rest of us.

And that's what I think is upsetting.

And the best solution is to give him 10 seconds every time.

It's like, okay, you stole enough time.

It's not fair anymore.

Everyone wants to play hands.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And like game, you know, poker is obviously a game of gathering information.

And if you're going to use an exorbitant amount of time to gather information um it's not fair to your opponents who want to see hands 100

yeah that was an interesting strategy to me because he was purposely waiting to piss people off right um i think it's partially to piss people off i think it's partially to get information like say it's before the flop everyone just has two cards and people are waiting and thinking about what to do and he has a close spot where he's not sure if he wants to put in chips or not.

And then he sits there for a minute and then the people behind him are fed up.

They look at their hands.

They start telegraphing whether they're going to fold or not.

Right.

You know, he gains information, but like, is it fair to take that minute to do so?

No, it's not.

And like, you'll notice the high rollers have a 30-second shot clock.

And this is kind of where it's annoying because he'll use the whole 30 seconds and there's not really anything you can do about it.

Yeah.

But in a tournament without a shot clock, he's just going to take like 60 or 90 seconds.

And

that's when the the tournament director has made good decisions.

It's just certainly the amount of time he can have.

Yeah, because a lot of the players are afraid to call a clock because they don't want to look weak, right?

Yeah, I think that like that could be part of it.

But

I would say people are definitely not afraid to call a clock on them anymore.

Have you ever called clock on someone?

Yeah, absolutely.

Not a ton.

And I do it in a much more, what I think is play way where like, hey, I'm going to call the clock on you in 30 seconds.

Plus, you'll give them a heads up.

Yeah, because you used to call the clock, take a floor man a little while to get there, get a minute countdown.

Well, now the countdown is 30 seconds.

And when someone calls clock on you and you're like in the middle of your like thought process, it can be very like alarming.

You're like, oh shit.

Like,

and I don't want it to be like a surprise to someone to be like, hey, it's a big spot I know.

Like, I'm going to call a clock in a minute.

Yeah.

And I think it's like a really polite way to do it.

What's the most time you've taken on a decision?

What's the deepest you've been in the tank before?

It's hard to say because when you're the one thinking, time kind of melts away.

You don't realize how long you've taken.

I used to smoke pot when I played.

And so, like, while you played?

I mean, on breaks and stuff.

Oh, okay.

I thought you meant at the table.

No, no, no, never.

I mean, in private games, maybe.

But yeah, not at like a poker tournament table.

And probably then, like, way too long.

Yeah.

I'm really not sure.

I've probably made some

10-minute tanks.

Damn.

Like, maybe, you know, in 20 years, maybe a couple 10-minute tanks.

Like, in general, not super long.

Yeah.

Wow.

Did you play better when you were high?

No, absolutely not.

I think it's like this

myth that like

smokers like tell themselves that they like play better.

They're like, oh, I'm more patient.

It's like, yeah, addicts can adjust.

Addicts can justify anything.

You know, and it's like when I was drinking and partying and stuff like that, like I could justify my actions as well.

Yeah.

I remember there was one guy in the main event two years ago.

He had a mushroom shirt on and he made it really far.

And people were like, is he micro-dustling?

Does that give him an edge on mushrooms?

I mean, I know.

I don't want to blow the person's.

You don't have to call them out.

Yeah, yeah.

I know like someone who plays high rollers, an

older recreational player who's like a serious hobbyist, and they micro-dose.

And they have dose for a couple of years now.

And I think it's every other day, part of their like regimen.

I know other people who macro dose.

I know a handful of people that do micro-dose.

I've never tried the poker table.

I could see.

life becoming more vivid and being able to get tells being more interesting.

Like that's kind of one of the reasons I've wanted to try it, but I haven't.

I'd be curious, yeah, because I've micro-dosed and you're definitely more focused.

It's like a natural lateral, people call it.

Yeah.

And I feel like you pick up on energies better.

I don't know if you're spiritual at all, but I feel like you could just pick up on stuff.

Yeah, I feel like some of that stuff is out there.

I have a student who actually does talk about that type of stuff, like auras and like

and stuff like that.

And I haven't gotten that deep into it or don't think that I'm deeply aware of people's energies as well as others.

Um,

you know, I've been thinking and talking about live tales so long that I'm able to articulate the little things that someone does that makes them weak or strong.

And, you know, other people are like, Well, I just looked at him, I could tell he was weak.

And I'm like, It's not very helpful to me.

Like, I wish you could at least share the thought process a little bit better, but you know, it's something that I've been able to articulate for you.

You're more logical with it, right?

Yeah, I mean, it's

something I'm very experienced at.

Yeah, have you ever uh caught a cheater, been cheated against?

I have been cheated In a home game or what was that?

Yeah,

big private home game.

And

my pattern recognition is one of the skills that I'm pretty good at.

And there was this like knit.

Knit is like a really tight player.

And

he would randomly play a hand, put in a ton of money before the flop.

But he would always be like, do you want action?

And he was trying to get it to be the other player's idea to get action.

So he would do something uncharacteristic justify it and then put in money and just always make the best hand and it's like we kind of figured it like i was pretty confident actually after session one got convinced by my friends who were in the game that uh the game was on the up and up and there's no nothing to worry about we found out a few sessions later after we all lost piles that unfortunately i was right um

Damn, you confronted him in person or like, how did that go down?

I mean, it was actually after Black Friday, and I had ran my roll back up to maybe like

250, quarter million or something, and like lost it all in the game and had to rebuild again.

Fortunately, it went well for like six months.

But I mean, it was unfortunate.

Yeah.

I mean, I paid and lost, and that was it.

He didn't pay you back ever.

Oh, God, no.

The cheater pays you back?

No, no, that's not.

Well, I know like poker players care about the reputation.

So like that guy will never be able to play again, right?

Yeah, I never played tournaments with this person.

It was just like a big private cash game that we were invited to.

Yeah.

The dealer was in on it then, right?

Um,

not necessarily.

Like, it could just be a certain deck that relays

the information to their phone that tells them which hand is the winner.

Damn.

It could be

one of the new common ones is like with a phone where there's like a little camera that like looks at the cards as they come out.

Wow.

Points it at the dealer and like sees every card.

And like they have someone else like relaying the information about who has what.

i mean there's a myriad of different ways to cheat you know like i really like how the european poker tour like kind of deals where's my hands on this thing um face down like a blackjack dealer yeah and so they never get like lifted up and potentially exposed to a small camera like that interesting yeah so like you know

cheat like when you're playing for a lot of money there's a big incentive to cheat and over time

people will think of new ways to cheat people will figure out how to stop it yeah And it's just kind of like a never-ending circle.

So I would say it happens somewhat rarely, even less so, like very, very rarely in casinos.

But yeah, whenever you're playing like big private games, you definitely have to be wary.

Do you stray away from those for that reason?

Yeah.

I used to play them quite a bit.

I got cheated

actually in this one in Tennessee not too long ago.

Oh, yeah.

This is a kind of a good story.

where

it's like, hey, me and this group, we play like, I'm like, who is it?

He's like, oh, we played on a stream stream recently.

So he sends me a link to the stream.

I'm like, oh, these guys seem like good action.

I go to the game, I drive like four hours and I play.

And the game seems like insane, great action.

And like, they're just like battling, going to war,

calling three bets with all kinds of shit hands.

And I lost like 25k, didn't really think twice.

And then the game was over.

Paid, whatever.

Then a little bit later, Foxen played on stream with this like same group of guys.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

the way they'd play against each other versus the way they'd play against you was just wildly different.

And I figured out that they were sharing a bankroll.

So if you and I are on a team, it didn't matter if I bluffed it off with seven deuce against you and looked like an idiot or vice versa.

And in reality, it was beneficial because we're sharing money.

And they,

the image gets kind of crazy.

And it's like, oh, this guy's a wild man.

And then I play a pot, like the random other person would play a pot with them, but then they play like very good poker.

And so you look insane because of this image creation with each other.

And then you're actually a good poker player.

It's incredibly deceptive.

Wow.

And so that was like

one of the ones that I've, you know, gotten got by.

That's a smart one.

That's really clever, actually.

Yeah.

I never guessed that.

I don't know how you can prove it either.

How did you find out?

I just am confident that that was the case.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Interesting.

Can't even prove it.

So Foxon lost a ton of money, too?

I think he lost small, fortunately.

Okay.

But for him to lose to those guys that don't even aren't.

Well, that was the thing is, like, I noticed, like, in hindsight, like, when you're playing the game, like, the one in the morning, it's hard to realize it.

But in hindsight, they used like really good sizes, played like the right ranges, folded to three bets when I did it, but not when each other did it, right?

So like when I'm playing a pot first them, I'm thinking they just like

call a three-bet, call a re-raise with like whatever hand that they opened with because that's what they do against their friends.

But then they actually have a completely different range when I'm the one that three-bet them.

And so it was a very deceptive way

of playing.

Very creative.

Wow.

Got to give it to them for at least coming up with that, huh?

Yeah.

Private games, you just gotta gotta be careful.

Yeah.

Better to just play.

tournaments or casino games.

Yeah.

Tournaments are your bread and butter, right?

That's your main strand.

Yeah, I enjoy them.

Like, I think that they're significantly more dynamic.

You know, the

stacks change so much more.

In a cash game, it's like everyone's super deep stacked.

I don't think there's that much creativity in play.

When stacks are a lot more shallow, it's a lot more intricacies, more dynamics that you need to uncover as you go.

So, I just find it more interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You ever think about vlogging like Brad Owen and those content creators?

Kind of.

And I do put out some like content on Instagram and stuff.

But as far as like vlogging, it's a little bit difficult for me.

You know, like

those are the type of players who fold their hand and then they're on their phone creating content.

And for me, I think it would take too much away from the type of poker I'm trying to play.

Yeah.

I guess maybe some commentary after the game.

Like they're not doing anything live.

Yeah.

I think that that would be the best way for me to do something.

Yeah.

I like how Brad, I guess Brad is on his phone a lot, though.

Yeah.

He has to film every hand.

You probably see a a lot of that these days, huh?

People coming up with their phones.

Yeah, I think they were more stringent on the people who could get licenses and stuff.

Like the rampage.

Oh, the casinos.

Yeah.

The World Series, there was that controversial thing with the Solvers.

Was that last year in the main event?

Yeah, it was.

What did they do about that?

They outlawed it.

Okay.

No Solvers this year.

Yeah,

what do you think of that debacle?

I think that it was really peculiar because it was very clear that what they were doing was against the rules.

Yeah.

And

it was the floor's responsibility to say something.

The floor didn't say anything.

So I guess just continue.

You know, it's

they were doing something to gain an edge, to study whatever while playing.

And

if

the floor didn't say anything, I guess that it's completely fine.

Like, I think that it was the floor's responsibility to be the police in that situation.

Yeah.

Yeah, that was an interesting one.

I mean, they definitely noticed noticed it, right?

They were right in front.

I mean, couldn't have not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's like the biggest cash out of the whole tournament, $10 million.

Yeah.

Crazy.

You would have been pissed if you were that guy that got second, right?

See, that's like kind of the weird spot because a recreational player doesn't realize that they can just like go to the floor man and be like, that's not allowed.

Oh, so you would have called it off.

Yeah.

So like, there's so many things that, like,

just like a weird example is, say you're playing a table from day one, and one player wins like all the chips and then gets moved.

So then your table's left with like very few hundred and five hundred chips to be able to play the binds.

It slows down the game.

You're making change every single hand.

And I would just ask the floor and be like, hey, we need a hundreds and 500s on this table.

And they'll bring over chips and you give them change and then it speeds up the game significantly.

Oh, wow.

But I've done that a couple of times at last year's World Series and the players are like, wow, I had no idea we could do that.

And so like just knowing what your powers are as a player and being able to ask the floor, knowing that when someone calls the clock on you like really fast, you can like get upset and get flustered, or you can be like, oh, sir, I haven't had a reasonable amount of time yet.

You know, so like, just knowing what the rules are is pretty important.

Yeah, that's a veteran move.

Do you notice the style of play differs when you go to other countries?

Yeah, definitely.

I would say Americans overall are like more passive and weak.

Same with France, I guess.

But most of Europe is like much more aggressive.

Asia, a little bit more spazzy, where they're like

moody almost, yeah, unpredictable.

Brazilians, quite aggressive, super high check race.

Okay.

If there was a poker World Cup, you took the best players from each country, where would America rank in that?

I think number one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, there's some like fantastic, like any country like

that is IA in the country.

IA.

Romania, Romania, Russia, like all of the IA countries are like quite good.

But I think overall, USA just has

the best players by a slight margin.

I'd love to see that.

Someone should make that happen.

Yeah, that'd be cool.

That'd be a poker World Cup.

Yeah.

Or they should add it to the Olympics or something.

That'd be sick.

That'd be sweet.

Poker is getting a ton of views.

I mean, if breakdancing's in there, then.

Is it actually in there?

Breakdancing was last year, yeah.

What?

There was that

Australian dance teacher or something that did something terrible and it was like memes forever.

You had to have seen the movie.

I must have, yeah.

Well, there's so many random sports in there now.

I know.

I can't keep track.

I always watched the curling one.

That one interested me.

Curling's like my favorite.

I don't know why.

Yeah.

But I think poker has too much luck for the Olympics.

Really?

Well, any given one hand could be 99% luck.

You know, over a lifetime or like over a year or two years, whatever, like the luck diminishes way down.

But

like, I don't think any other sports have the luck factor that poker has.

It's like, yeah, even in golf, it can hit a tree and end up at the fairway or on the green.

But it's like such a smaller percentage of the game.

That's a very good point.

Most actual sports don't have high luck percentages, I feel like.

Maybe the luck would be like if your star player got injured or something.

Yeah.

So you lose, but like the Celtics, but.

Like, there's zero luck in chess, right?

It's all skill.

Yeah.

I guess the only luck would be who goes first.

Because white has a slight edge.

Yeah, of course.

But like, no, it's mainly skill.

If you lose in chess, it's your fault.

Yeah.

Which is crazy.

Yeah.

In poker, if you lose, you could play amazing, right?

I'm sure that happens to you all the time.

Yeah.

And that must be frustrating.

I feel like the better I play, the better I run.

It must be like confirmation bias.

But yeah.

Is there a lot of momentum in poker?

Yeah, I do think so.

But I think the momentum is derived from

making the little decisions that save you a few chips here and there that add up over time, and then you're still in the tournament because of it.

And so it's just like playing better

is the the momentum.

Yeah, because there's crazy stories in poker where they'll be down to the last big blind and they'll win the tournament.

Yeah.

And if you had made a mistake earlier and lost that big blind anyway, then you would have never had that opportunity.

It was crazy.

I do think that's where the momentum is derived from.

Oh, yeah.

Well, chance.

Where could people learn from you and keep up with you?

Check out Chip Leader Coaching.

Myself and Alex Foxen and Kristen Foxen do.

all of the content on there.

We have a variety of offerings from low ticket to high ticket.

I think it's the best place to learn how to be a better poker tournament player, whether you're a beginner or remediated or advanced.

If you want to follow my poker journey, check out Instagram and

X at Chances Cards.

I love it.

I hope you get another bracelet this year, man.

I'll be watching.

Have a good one.

Check them out, guys.

See you next time.