How This Fighter Pilot Makes Life-or-Death Decisions at 500 MPH | Michelle "Mace" Curran

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Speaker 4 You just need to focus on the next closest alligator to the boat.

Speaker 4 That sounds so simple. It's kind of like how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time, but I think it also takes urgency into consideration.

Speaker 4 Just focus on what you need to do to prepare for that flight that's tomorrow. Stop worrying about your check ride that's three weeks from now.
Stop worrying about the next block of training.

Speaker 4 Just dial in and focus your time, your energy, everything on the next thing that's going to kill you.

Speaker 4 In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

Speaker 5 I can always tell how a show's going to go. Now I'm jinxing myself by what happens in the

Speaker 5 green room before we go live.

Speaker 5 Just excited to have you on and get your viewpoint on a bunch of different topics today.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I'm excited to be here. And I agree.
It's nice to kick it off in the green room behind the scenes with some good conversation before we flip the button and hit record. So we did that.

Speaker 5 Yeah. The worst is like every once in a while, and this is, I hate to be like, Nick, every once in a while, I'll be chatting with someone before we like go live.
Yep. And like...

Speaker 5 they start giving me like one-word answers and I'm like, I start to get a little like hang hand

Speaker 5 ringy where I'm like, uh-oh,

Speaker 5 I'm going to have to pull teeth today. But I'm not worried about that with our conversation.
So I wanted to start in a place,

Speaker 5 you know, and it's something I've heard you talk a little bit about. I know you've written about it, but

Speaker 5 I work with a lot of startup founders, entrepreneurs. My industry is insurance, and I work with a lot of business owners in that industry specifically.
And I find that

Speaker 5 a core differentiator between the businesses that seem to eventually figure things out despite conditions like in the marketplace, right?

Speaker 5 That just seemingly always get through is their ability to make decisions.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I know from both watching both Top Guns and looking at your content that in your former profession, making decisions and making those decisions rapidly was maybe paramount to the job.

Speaker 5 So I would love for you to start through this mindset of like, how are you taught becoming a pilot to make those decisions and being able to operate, moving at a speed that most of us can't even imagine?

Speaker 5 Having your life on the line with every decision, like,

Speaker 5 there are real consequences to your decision-making structure. So if there's anyone who can make decisions, it's you.
So I'd love to just work through your initial thought process on that.

Speaker 4 Yeah, there's so many things that go into it. And the Air Force does a good job of teaching you from a young age when you're in the training pipeline.

Speaker 4 how to kind of adopt this mindset of making decisions with the information that you have available, even when it's incomplete a lot of the times, which I think is the case for most of us most of the time.

Speaker 4 And I came into Air Force pilot training with no civilian flight time, so it was drinking from a fire hose. It was intense.
There was so much information being thrown at me.

Speaker 4 And there were a couple of kind of key, very like fundamental mindset things that we were taught really early on that kind of laid the groundwork. One of those is that you have to compartmentalize.

Speaker 4 And I think that can get a negative connotation around it, right? Like, we should process what we go through. And there is a time and a place for that.
I 100% agree.

Speaker 4 But when you're in the thick of it, when you're flying a fighter jet, for example, at 500 miles an hour, and something goes awry, something goes not as planned,

Speaker 4 you have to do what you can with that situation and

Speaker 4 purposely focus on moving forward and the next task that you have to handle. You cannot let that thing snowball and impact your next decision.
And impact, it cannot become a distraction.

Speaker 4 And so being able to compartmentalize and focus on the task at hand was something that was just drilled into us very early.

Speaker 4 Because you would see students in the pilot training program who would go out and both have an equally bad flight. Say they messed something up.

Speaker 4 The student that would go on to thrive would come back and be like, okay,

Speaker 4 What can I learn from that?

Speaker 4 What things can I pull from that that are going to make me better on my next flight? And they would go crush it the next day.

Speaker 4 The student that would eventually fail out of the program would come back and be like,

Speaker 4 I shouldn't be here. I can't believe I made that mistake.
Now everyone's judging me. Clearly I'm not cut out for this.

Speaker 4 And they would just let that mentality snowball and affect their next flight where they were distracted by, oh, I'm about to land. Last time I messed this up, surely I'm going to mess it up again.

Speaker 4 So there's that. And then I was told a very simple phrase by an instructor very early on.
They were basically like, this program is going to to be hard.

Speaker 4 You're going to feel very overwhelmed by this idea that we're going to take you from never having flown an airplane to flying a jet trainer and soloing and doing instruments and all the things in aviation.

Speaker 4 Like the progression of skill is so rapid over the year-long program, it can seem like there is an absolutely impossible amount of things to learn. And people get discouraged and scared off by that.

Speaker 4 So they were like, you just need to focus on the next closest alligator to the boat.

Speaker 4 That sounds so simple. It's kind of like how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time? But I think it also takes urgency into consideration.

Speaker 4 And they're like, just focus on what you need to do to prepare for that flight that's tomorrow. Stop worrying about your check ride.
That's three weeks from now.

Speaker 4 Stop worrying about the next block of training. Just dial in and focus your time, your energy, everything on the next thing that's going to kill you.

Speaker 4 And kill you in that circumstance means wash you out of the program.

Speaker 4 So I know that's kind of like a slightly off topic from the question, but being taught those two things super early on, those were fundamental skills that I used years later in a combat squadron and years after that flying for the Thunderbirds when a decision had to be made with limited information.

Speaker 4 It was to set aside the things that had gone wrong previously, focus on the task at hand, and then also not get overwhelmed by the things that were coming up.

Speaker 4 So it's kind of like an extreme version of living in the moment.

Speaker 4 But you're not doing that carelessly. The other piece is that there's a massive amount of preparation that goes in beforehand in a controlled environment when there really is no risk of failure.

Speaker 4 So that's walking through, you know, contingency plans. That's getting in a simulator and practicing emergencies.

Speaker 4 That's getting with your whole team and talking about, okay, what if this asset runs out of gas and has to leave early and now we don't have those missiles for this air-to-air engagement.

Speaker 4 And so this really detailed planning, looking at contingency plans, rehearsal in our brain that we call chair flying, where we're on the ground and we're running through the flight again and again.

Speaker 4 That is what allows you to make a decision with the limited information because in your mind you've already been there and done that when you weren't at 500 miles an hour and you weren't at 9 Gs.

Speaker 4 And so I guess that's to kind of boil that down because that was the world's longest answer.

Speaker 4 You know, it's it's compartmentalization, it's prioritizing, but then it's really the preparation that allows you to do that.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Do you think that ability to

Speaker 5 stay present despite obstacles is born in? Or do you think it's something that like the second scenario, the latter scenario that you've described, the person who starts,

Speaker 5 you know, diving into judgment and you know their status in the program and starts you know coming inside themselves. Do you think that person can be trained out of that as well?

Speaker 5 Or is this just something that, like, intrinsically we have this ability to move past these things, or we don't?

Speaker 4 I think you can definitely be trained into it. And I myself have been both of those students.

Speaker 4 I would say in pilot training, I was the one that was like, okay, this is what I have to do today: study, focus on that. I have a very clear objective, like, let's go.

Speaker 4 And I did really well in that programming.

Speaker 4 Focus or fast forward a few years later. Now I'm flying in F-16.
Things have gotten a lot harder.

Speaker 4 But I am now the person that's really struggling with self-doubt and imposter syndrome and a feeling like they don't belong there and all of those things.

Speaker 4 And I mean, the second one is probably two, three years later. So I am more experienced.
I'm objectively a better aviator at that point. I'm older.
I am more mature.

Speaker 4 And now I am that one struggling with all of those things. And maybe it was just being young and naive and like super goal-driven.
Like, I'm sprinting towards getting this fighter jet.

Speaker 4 This is my dream.

Speaker 4 And then I realized a little bit more the nuances and how hard it actually was as I, you know, moved forward in my career. But I have been both.

Speaker 4 And I also went on that journey back from that second one where I really struggled to eventually go fly for the Thunderbirds. So I think there were peaks and valleys.

Speaker 4 And now I have a lot of perspective on it where I don't let myself get into that mentality anymore and wallow there. But I think

Speaker 4 really just being able to zoom out and realize when you're finding yourself in that situation and recognizing that your thoughts are not necessarily facts,

Speaker 4 that that perspective, I call it the 30,000-foot view, right? Because aviation cliches, but being able to zoom out and be like, okay,

Speaker 4 I recognize what's happening here. Here's the external evidence of what's really going on, and I need to set my feelings of inadequacy aside and focus on the facts.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 So a mentor of mine a long time ago used to say preparation breeds presence. And his whole philosophy on life was whoever can be the most present in a situation wins, right?

Speaker 5 Whoever's not, you know, ruminating over the past or projecting out into the future, right, who can be there in the moment with the most of themselves ultimately you know, most often ends up winning that situation.

Speaker 5 So outside of say just the preparation to get to that point, did you have any

Speaker 5 personal things that you did to stay present? Any like morning routine type stuff or like meditate or pray or mantras or like journaling? Anything that you did outside of, say, the,

Speaker 5 you know, what the Air Force was teaching you to kind of help keep you more present in those moments. And, and, as you said, like, catch yourself when you feel yourself going down that path.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I wouldn't say it was necessarily a morning routine, but it was more of a broader like boundaries I created for myself.

Speaker 4 Go back to that pilot training time frame, it is very intense and it's a year long, and that is a long time to operate at max capacity, you know, 12 hours a day, just learning new things constantly.

Speaker 4 So I kind of set a rule for myself that Saturdays I would hang out with my family, I would go do fun stuff, I would maybe go for like a long

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Speaker 4 Run,

Speaker 4 we play with my dog. You know, it was like, okay, shut the books, put away the flashcards.
We're going to have a day off. But then Sunday, it was study day to prep for Monday.

Speaker 4 And, you know, forcing myself to do that, even when it always felt like there was more stuff to learn and more stuff that I should be doing,

Speaker 4 I think allowed me to not burn out.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And then, you know, fast forward a decade later to flying for the Thunderbirds. Again, super intense schedule.
We're on the road 240 days a year.

Speaker 4 You are beating your body up, pulling nine times the force of gravity multiple times a week. It is very much like being a professional athlete as far as the schedule and the demands just physically.

Speaker 4 And so this is going to sound kind of funny, but like one of the things that allowed me to de-stress and get through that was finding time to go do my own workouts.

Speaker 4 Like being beat up in the jet is hard on your body. It's not necessarily good for it.

Speaker 4 So like going for a run or even just a walk or figuring out what I could do with whatever hotel gym we were staying at.

Speaker 4 And like kind of making that like a non-negotiable, even if that meant waking up super early in a new time zone to make it happen.

Speaker 4 Combine that with, again, creating a boundary where Sunday nights, you know, Saturday, Sunday we would do air shows, Monday we would fly either back to Las Vegas where we're based out of, or we would go on to our next show location.

Speaker 4 Sunday nights, I would have like a, I don't want to talk to anyone, don't invite me to dinner, I don't care if there's some cool thing happening, like backstage passes for a concert or whatever.

Speaker 4 I'm using Uber Eats, I'm getting a sushi bowl, and I'm sitting in my hotel bed, and I'm eating sushi because when else can you sit in a bed and eat sushi? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 And I'm watching whatever cable TV the hotel has.

Speaker 4 And so, like, creating those contracts with myself, even when there are constant demands of things I should be doing to be productive, productive,

Speaker 4 that became like my lifeline.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I think it's a wonderful point because I know people struggle with this in all aspects of their life, right? High achievers, especially, people that are trying to do something.

Speaker 5 And I found myself, you know, I've been an entrepreneur most of my life. And

Speaker 5 like you, you get a block of time and you feel like, well, I have two hours. where I don't have to be somewhere.

Speaker 5 So I need to be like creating a blog post or answering emails or putting together a sales debt or whatever needs to get done. And

Speaker 5 there's almost like this sense where

Speaker 5 if you get burned out somehow, you're losing, right? Like, that's only people who aren't successful get burned out. And it's like, absolutely not.
Some of the most successful people I've met work.

Speaker 5 Like, I had a guy on the show a couple of weeks ago, and

Speaker 5 multiple nine-figure exit businesses, like just incredibly successful, wealthy dude, like by all measures, incredibly high achiever. And he's like, I work six hours a day.

Speaker 5 He's like, and the reason isn't because I don't want to work. I've found that if once I hit six hours, my production quality goes down, my focus goes down, and I'm just kind of doing stuff to do it.

Speaker 5 And he's like, I would rather, so he's like, what I try to do is, you know, whether it's, you know, my morning or evenings, whatever, I try to create opportunities for either space or physical activity or time with friends and family because that recharges me.

Speaker 5 So when I get back to my six-hour block, I'm hitting it 100% and have max energy. And like,

Speaker 5 that's not a story that's told very often is the need for the recharge or that, you know, burning yourself out is a, is a choice.

Speaker 5 Certain scenarios, it's going to happen just because of the stress and how much it takes to get to certain places.

Speaker 5 But those, I think we need to look at those more as moments, like tactically pushing to burnout and knowing that after a period of time, you're going to downshift and have the ability to do that.

Speaker 5 But man, if you just sit in that burnout zone, all of a sudden, this thing you used to love becomes like not something you want to do.

Speaker 5 You start to become a little bitter, a little resentful, and none of that leads to the success you're trying to get to.

Speaker 4 Absolutely. And I don't think it should be a badge of honor, right? To be like,

Speaker 4 the hustle culture of like, no days off. We work seven days a week.
Like we haven't taken a vacation in five years.

Speaker 4 Great, like, congratulations for what?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think most of us would say, like, the whole point of building something and making enough money to have freedom of schedule and flexibility is so that you can go spend that time with your family or you can go travel somewhere you've always wanted to go.

Speaker 4 Like, just working

Speaker 4 to feel like you're that high achiever that hustles,

Speaker 4 it's a zero-sum game in the end.

Speaker 5 Yeah, yeah, I get that. Now, you know,

Speaker 5 take this wherever you want to go, but

Speaker 5 I can't imagine

Speaker 5 being a female in the military, in particular the aviation space, makes it easier to get to that position.

Speaker 5 So, you know, what were some of the challenges that maybe you were faced with that, you know, particular to that or really any other scenarios you want to hit? And like, how do you work through that?

Speaker 5 Like, when you don't necessarily look like everyone else who is doing this thing that you want to do or aren't traditionally, you know, the, the, the, the person that would fit this space,

Speaker 5 how did you push through that and be successful?

Speaker 4 Yeah, I actually like this question because I think people have an idea of what the answer is in their minds. And I like to speak very candidly about it and maybe

Speaker 4 give people a peek behind the curtain a little bit. So

Speaker 4 You know, to go back to when I first decided I wanted to be a pilot, I get this pilot slot. I'm in pilot training.
In my my mind it didn't really

Speaker 4 stick out to me that I was one of so few women like I go through pilot training with a group of 25 I'm the only woman in my class and that was pretty standard some classes didn't have any women in them and I don't mind like I'm fine hanging out with the guys they're my friends like it doesn't bother me as I get to be

Speaker 4 more competitive in that world and it becomes clear that I'm doing well in the program and that I'm actually a contender to get get one of the very few fighter jets that will be available to each class.

Speaker 4 Generally classes we're getting between one to three fighter aircraft available and then everyone else is going to fly what we call heavies like cargo aircraft, air refueling, helicopters.

Speaker 4 And to be fair, not everyone wants to be a fighter pilot, but a lot of people do.

Speaker 4 And there are always more people that want to do it than spots available. So it's very competitive.

Speaker 4 Towards the end of the program, it becomes clear that I'm a contender to be the second person in the class. Like the guy that was first was just, he just killed it.

Speaker 4 So we all knew, okay, if there's one fighter jet available, it's going to him. It's between myself and one other person for that second spot.

Speaker 4 We are down to our last check ride in the program, which a check ride is like an airborne test, and those have a lot of weight towards your class ranking, which ultimately decides who gets what aircraft.

Speaker 4 I am studying with my friend who I've been in this program for a year with, and he's getting frustrated with the answers he's giving, or whatever.

Speaker 4 We're like doing flashcards, and he's struggling with something. And his own frustration, he says, I don't even know why I'm wasting my time.
They're just going to give you a fighter to check the box.

Speaker 4 And that was like the first time anyone had said anything like that to me.

Speaker 5 Wow.

Speaker 4 And it was such like a flippant, like, he surely doesn't remember saying that, but I will never forget it because it was the first time that someone like threw being a woman in that environment in my face in a a negative way.

Speaker 4 And I was like,

Speaker 4 I'm young. I'm not super confident.
Yeah, I don't defend myself. I think I just like sit there in silence and then go on with studying.

Speaker 4 It would be very different now if that situation happened, of course, but I'm like, I don't know, 24, 23 years old, something like that.

Speaker 4 But that was kind of burned into my mind because I was like, okay,

Speaker 4 some people don't like this. Like, it challenges them that I might be better than them at this thing.

Speaker 4 Whatever, long story short, I ended up second in the class and got the fighter jet. Go on to be in the F-16.

Speaker 4 And now things get a lot more intense as you move up. It's kind of like going from being the valedictorian in high school to all of a sudden being a student at Harvard.

Speaker 4 You're like, oh, I was really good.

Speaker 4 Now I'm just average, and everyone here is really good.

Speaker 4 And in that squadron, my first operational squadron, it was myself and one other female pilot. At that time, about 2% of fighter pilots were women.
Now it's about 4.5%.

Speaker 4 So it has gone up, but mind you, that's like 15 years of time.

Speaker 4 So there,

Speaker 4 fighter squadrons have a very unique culture. There's a lot of work hard, play hard.
There's a lot of camaraderie that is built by kind of making fun of each other, by joking around.

Speaker 4 by a lot of traditions and that stuff is really important because you are trusting the people with your lives and you're in a serious business.

Speaker 4 But also, it traditionally being all men, it can kind of devolve towards like the locker room type culture.

Speaker 4 And I'm not faulting the people, like that's just kind of how it was.

Speaker 4 I came in at a very transitional point where the culture was being pushed to kind of be like, hey, we can still have all this camaraderie, this work hard, play hard, but it doesn't really have to be at the expense of women.

Speaker 4 You know, like we, like, there's so many other ways to do it without saying derogatory things towards women. And so Big Air Force Down was trying to push that into units.

Speaker 4 Of course, you have the people that are resistant to that change because they feel like the identity of a fighter pilot is trying to be forced into this like

Speaker 4 new PC kind of mold. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I think I was kind of just a little bit at the end of the whip for that. Because again, I'm young.

Speaker 4 I'm just trying to figure out how to do this really difficult new career that is overwhelming at first.

Speaker 4 Meanwhile, I feel a lot of extra responsibility because I was definitely under a spotlight.

Speaker 4 If I struggled during a mission, I felt like, you know, say it's dog fighting, since everyone's familiar with that thing, Satop Gun. Say I'm struggling at dog fighting.

Speaker 4 Now the reputation of female fighter pilots is that we're not good at dog fighting. I'm a sample size of one.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Or, I mean, it went the other way as well. Say I'm like really good at air-to-ground, like employing weapons, you know, dropping bombs.

Speaker 4 They'd be like, oh, female fighter pilots are just really naturally good at this. That's a lot of responsibility to carry.

Speaker 4 And then the other half of that was

Speaker 4 stuff would be said, like inappropriate joke would be made or whatever. And if I was in the room, everyone would be like, oh, crap.

Speaker 4 They would all turn and look at me and they would wait for my reaction. And I'm, again, I'm one of the youngest people in the squadron.
I'm a brand new lieutenant.

Speaker 4 It should not be my responsibility to determine what's acceptable in the squadron.

Speaker 4 And my reaction to that, whether whether I laughed along with it, whether I just sat there quietly awkward, or whether I spoke up against it,

Speaker 4 that determined what was going to be

Speaker 4 acceptable in the organization. And I also felt like that determined what the next woman that came into that unit was going to have to deal with.

Speaker 4 So even if I was okay with something that was being said, or I didn't want to rock the boat, and I was like, okay, I'm going to laugh along with that, even though it makes me uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 Then I would feel guilty later because I knew I was kind of screwing over the next woman that came to the squadron. So it's not this blatant sexism that people imagine.
It's not like sabotage.

Speaker 4 It's not people trying to like sexually assault you around every corner. It was like that, I will say, in the early 90s when combat cockpits first opened to women, to some extent.

Speaker 4 I've heard horror stories. It is a lot better now.
But there are still so many nuances where you feel like you have to walk on eggshells.

Speaker 4 And I don't think a lot of the guys even realize that it's a thing and they become more aware of it and I would never fault any of them and I wrote about this in my book and it was like one of the hardest things was how do I speak candidly about what that experience was like without feeling like I'm throwing my friends under the bus yeah because these were my friends or they are my friends but that's how it was

Speaker 5 could you go back at them and have would like like if you went tit for tat with them would they find it coming back at them? Like, were they looking for you?

Speaker 5 Were they throwing stuff at you to then see how you would respond? Like, would you come back and dig them and make things back at them?

Speaker 5 Or was it more like just kind of launching bombs at you to kind of keep you in your place?

Speaker 4 I think it was definitely like a

Speaker 4 we'll give it to you, you give it back to us. Like, that's how camaraderie is built.
Yeah. And that would happen all the time.
Like, you would,

Speaker 4 I think everyone does that in their friend groups, right? Especially guys, like, give each other a a hard time and you're like, oh, yeah, you don't take a personal, you just do it right back.

Speaker 4 That definitely happened with like mistakes you would make flying, dumb stuff you would say, like all of that kind of stuff. I think where it felt like it all of a sudden

Speaker 4 went off the tracks as if, was when it focused on like women in general. Yeah.
When it was something that wasn't just like, oh, Mace, you really sucked at that dogfight, whatever.

Speaker 4 You totally did not shoot the guy you were supposed to.

Speaker 5 This is like a- I know you're PCFying what they're saying to you. It's probably a little harsher than that.

Speaker 5 Like that is expected.

Speaker 4 And I think it's important because, again, that builds up camaraderie. But it's different if it's some like sexualization, objectification of women in general.

Speaker 4 And I'm in the room and it gets really awkward really quickly. That's just not necessary.

Speaker 5 Yeah. I know.

Speaker 5 It's funny. You know, I've always struggled with this

Speaker 5 because

Speaker 5 I played a lot of sports and different stuff. And like part of the part of the process, and again, I've never been involved in female sports, so I don't know how females react to each other.

Speaker 5 But like, when you join a team, you immediately start pushing on people, right? Like, can I make this joke? You know, like, will they give it, like, who's going to give it back to me?

Speaker 5 Who's going to kind of, and it, it's almost to create a like a seemingly a little bit of a hierarchy of like, who's, who, if, if I can bust your chops really bad, right?

Speaker 5 Really give it to you good and like hit on something and you don't cower, you don't get, you come right back over the top of me and get me. Now it's like, oh, we're, you know, we're good.

Speaker 5 Now, you know, I feel like, and you're like, you're constantly testing each other.

Speaker 5 And what I found is like, you know, and I had this conversation with a buddy of mine who used to play in the NFL and we were talking about locker rooms, right? And like the topic of racism came up.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I was like, I've, you know, I've never really understood racism because all I always just want to win. So like, I don't give a shit if you're purple or rainbow colored.

Speaker 5 Like if you can be part of this crew and help us get to where we want to go, like I don't give a shit. I don't care who you have sex with.

Speaker 5 I don't care what you, you know, like none of it matters when you're shooting towards a goal.

Speaker 5 And I think to your point, there are, there's ribbing and, and a little bit of hazing that happens as you try to figure out, like, it's all, it's all part of trying to figure out who's going to be there with me when shit's bad.

Speaker 5 Like if you can't take a joke, then you're not going to be there when when we're down by, you know, five runs in a baseball game and we need to make a comeback, right?

Speaker 5 I can't count on you because if you can't take a joke, you can't take, you know, a negative situation over here.

Speaker 5 But I agree, there's, and this was always the thing I think people miss, particularly with locker room talk, is that

Speaker 5 you figure, you also figure out who doesn't get it, right?

Speaker 5 Like the guy who makes, like, there's a different, like you can make like black, you know, black people make fun of white people, you know, you make these different little, and there's like a level where it's fun ribbing to figure out who you are.

Speaker 5 And then there's that guy who comes in and will make a joke and everyone's head will snap and you'll be like, you don't get what we're doing here. Like, yeah, that was, that's the inappropriate level.

Speaker 5 And I think,

Speaker 5 and, and I think some of the differences, and we just haven't figured out how to do this, is in those scenarios, those guys end up getting cut out of the herd, right? The guys who can't make the

Speaker 5 who don't understand the line between appropriate and inappropriate, ribbing and pushing and testing, right?

Speaker 5 Like, like they get cut out of the herd and sometimes physically cut out of the herd and like i think you know and i've heard this from from a few other people um in the military in particular i think there's a lot of like

Speaker 5 i think a lot of guys don't know where that line is particularly when it comes to women like right like what can i say what goes over the line and i agree with you like you know You can make fun of someone's hair color or hair length or whatever.

Speaker 5 They got a new hair. But like, then you start to sexualize.
And that's like a whole nother thing. And that shit doesn't happen in the locker rooms, right?

Speaker 5 Like there's some playful shit that happens, you know, whatever. I don't want to get offensive, but you know, we used to say it's cool until it's real, if you understand what I'm saying.

Speaker 5 But like the, there is a level in which you don't ultimately want to hurt the person. Like you're not trying to hurt them.
You're just trying to figure out, like, are they going to be there for you?

Speaker 5 And that is a fine line to walk. And I do think I'm glad to hear that that's starting to change because,

Speaker 5 you know,

Speaker 5 at this point in time, and I'm really interested in your take on this. Like,

Speaker 5 I had a guest on the other day, and he said,

Speaker 5 he has a friend who is a former three-star general who's retired. And he was talking to him, and he brought the story up.

Speaker 5 And he said, you know, now this is one of the most precarious times that we've had in a very long time in our country, right?

Speaker 5 Didn't go into much detail beyond that, but I think we all kind of feel that, you know, maybe where it falls. But

Speaker 5 today, to me, it feels like we just need the best, regardless of who they have sex with, what color they are, what they believe in, what gender they are.

Speaker 5 Like we just need the best in the places where we need the best. And we have to be malleable to get to that point.
And I think there's a give and take on both sides, but

Speaker 5 going after someone at a level that makes them feel like they can't trust you, that's the opposite of what that culture is supposed to create.

Speaker 4 Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is the goal for everyone.
Like, if you were to pull back politics and ideologies and all the things, you're going to be like, what do you want in our military?

Speaker 4 Both people would be like, we want them to be the best. Both sides would be like, we want our military to be the best.

Speaker 4 We want them to be a high-performing team that's really good at executing the mission, whatever that looks like, because that's not how it's going out and shooting people, right?

Speaker 4 Like, the military has a lot of different jobs. And we get kind of like pigeonholed into

Speaker 4 this is just like pure combat capability, which ultimately that is the primary job. But there are so many nuances and different roles that people play.

Speaker 4 Not everyone is going out and wielding a weapon in a war zone. And everyone needs to understand how their role contributes to the overall mission of doing that.

Speaker 4 But there are different people with different personalities and different backgrounds and different lived experiences that make them the best for those various roles.

Speaker 4 Not everyone is a a Navy SEAL kicking down doors.

Speaker 5 Yes. Right?

Speaker 4 And not everyone is a fighter pilot.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 the diversity of thought that comes with different backgrounds

Speaker 4 is very powerful on a team. And I think anyone in the business world would agree with that.

Speaker 4 But there's also, when you want to talk like combat capability, because that's become like so much the focus of like we're getting rid of all these other things because we just want to be really good at combat capability.

Speaker 4 Go to Afghanistan, you know, that long-lived conflict. There were a lot of things because of the cultural norms in Afghanistan that women in the military were able to do,

Speaker 4 interacting with the local population, interacting with other women,

Speaker 4 that men would not have been able to do. That was not socially acceptable in that culture for a man to talk to a woman or to search her or whatever it was.

Speaker 4 And so there are these specific examples where that difference and diversity is extremely beneficial. And we've just kind of been like, nah, that's not a thing.
Yeah. And it's frustrating.

Speaker 4 Having been in that world and having been very much a minority in that world for my whole career, it's very, very frustrating because I was part of so many high-performing teams.

Speaker 4 And I saw people that were various races, men and women, just crush it on all fronts.

Speaker 4 And it it just feels like it undermines all of their accomplishments in just like such a broad brush stroke in such a short amount of time.

Speaker 5 Is it ego? Is it just that, is it just an ego thing where, like,

Speaker 5 I don't want, like, if I, if I open up the gates right to a broader set of backgrounds, let's call it, let's use that as the term, to come in, right?

Speaker 5 Now my opportunity is potentially less, or there's more potential for me not to be the best or for me not to have this rank or have opportunities to, because now there's just different people in the system that I didn't have to contend with before.

Speaker 5 Or do you think it's just straight, like,

Speaker 5 you know, just being kind of like a caveman head? Like you just, you just can't see it. You, you want everyone to,

Speaker 5 I can't imagine a world where we all look the same. That'd be boring as fuck.
But like, I just, you know, like, what do you think it actually is that creates this? Because,

Speaker 5 and I mean this with all sincerity, like I have just never viewed the world this way. Like, I don't know, maybe it's because I grew up in a middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 5 In a shit town where we said you could leave the doors unlocked at night because the criminals lived in our town. They didn't steal in our town, right?

Speaker 5 So for me, like at 12, I remember being like, I just need to to get the out of here and the only way i could see to get out was sports so i started playing sports and like in sports to to be successful individually you have to be successful as a team so i literally could give two shits what you look like how you act what your home life was like where you were from how much money you had because i just wanted to win because winning helped me look better so that i could go to college so i get the fuck out of my small town and like so i've just never had this viewpoint of like that's a woman, so she can't be as good at me at this thing.

Speaker 5 Like, I, you know, maybe it's true, maybe I can kick a door, a heavier door down than you, but like, there's probably other things that I can't do that you can do, and let's figure out what those things are and let's go.

Speaker 5 Like, but there are absolutely, as you've defined and experienced firsthand, people who just simply do not share that view. And I'm very interested in like, why do you think that exists?

Speaker 5 Like, what could be the incentive or benefit that they get from that viewpoint that keeps them from changing, if that makes sense.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think it varies, right? Like, I think we're in a world right now where everyone wants like black and white answers, where it's like, oh,

Speaker 4 them, they are all like this, and we are all like this. And it's so much more nuanced than that.
I think there are the people that,

Speaker 4 kind of going back to that story I shared with that guy in my class, where he was, I truly believe that he had no malintent against me.

Speaker 4 I think he was just frustrated and worried about his own check ride.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 And he was like, like i am not getting this concept i am stressed out a lot is on the line she's an easy target because she's sitting right here and that is a low blow that will make me feel better yeah yeah and i think there are a lot of people that are in those moments and that's how they vocalize it right like

Speaker 4 Being in the aviation space, there are a lot of people trying to get jobs and I'm, you know, in all these different groups and I can see all the hiring things that are happening on the commercial aviation side because that's such a natural transition after my first career that many of my peers have gone and done.

Speaker 4 And there are so many people trying to get hired by the major airlines, right?

Speaker 4 And when you're frustrated and you feel like you've done the work and you've put in your application and you're not getting hired, it's a lot easier to start to throw stones at a different group and be like, they're the problem, versus being like, well, hiring's slowed down right now because of these reasons.

Speaker 4 Maybe I need to focus on growing my experience in this area, right? Like take ownership of what you can control and go double down on getting better. But that's hard.
And that's not just men, right?

Speaker 4 I think humans in general. It's easier to be like,

Speaker 4 well, I'm the most qualified. The only reason I'm not getting that job is because they are stealing the job, like women in this case, or minorities in that case.

Speaker 4 So I think that there is some of that insecurity, becomes an easy target. But there's also been this narrative created that

Speaker 4 anyone that's a minority that is in a role that is primarily not like them must have been let in by some flaw in the system.

Speaker 4 That standards must have been lowered. Quotas must have been created.

Speaker 4 And we know that DI, right, which is going to like

Speaker 4 buzzword this episode for good or bad,

Speaker 4 it's not always executed perfectly.

Speaker 4 Right?

Speaker 4 Not probably, I'm sure there have been instances where it has been executed in a way that was unfair.

Speaker 4 But the goal of it is to just let more people have a swing at the bat, right? Like, it's to let those people get their applications in. It's to show them the opportunities that are out there.

Speaker 4 And aviation, especially, since I can really only speak to that,

Speaker 4 check ride standards, hiring standards, that stuff is so defined. Like when you fly a check ride, it's like, did you hold your airspeed plus or minus 10 knots?

Speaker 4 Where's your altitude plus or minus 50 feet? Was your heading plus or minus three degrees? Like, there is really no subjectivity that's going into that. It's either you did it or you didn't.

Speaker 4 And it's all recorded.

Speaker 4 And so this idea that women or minorities are just given this.

Speaker 4 get out of jail free card to pass through all this training no matter how their performance is and immediately go to the top levels it's just not a thing.

Speaker 4 And so, I think the combination of those two things, right? It's easy to blame someone else

Speaker 4 when you're struggling yourself.

Speaker 4 And then there's just been this whole narrative built that that's the boogeyman

Speaker 4 that's lowering standards, that's making our military to get back to that not as good as they possibly could be because there's like these implanted moles in there who are women and minorities who have just been picked up and dropped into these elite positions to check a box.

Speaker 4 And that's just not a thing.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I, my thought, so

Speaker 5 DEI to me is a wonderfully intentioned idea, so poorly executed and communicated that it has crushed exactly what you're talking about, right? There's this whole counter movement

Speaker 5 because

Speaker 5 I think they missed on the core is opportunity, right? What drives me nuts about DEI. So like, you know, there are pockets.

Speaker 5 So I live in upstate New York and there are pockets around here that are just absolutely destitute.

Speaker 5 Pockets of white people in trailer parks who live just as shitty, just as poor, just as addiction-riddled, horrendous lives as the, as

Speaker 5 the black people that live down in the city who live in different

Speaker 5 houses, same destitution, right?

Speaker 5 And,

Speaker 5 you know, I think what... What I, the reason I, so I don't love DEI because I feel like what it's not not doing is actually solving the real problem, which is opportunity, right?

Speaker 5 You, you, when you say equity, if I'm not as good at you, as good at you, at whatever the skill is, right? That, that's the defining characteristic, as you just said.

Speaker 5 Clear, transparent, measurables, right? Auditable measurables that you can hold up against.

Speaker 5 But what's happened, what happened for, you know, most of our history, and this is the reason DEI was created, was that that was true if you looked like this.

Speaker 5 And then, and even inside of that, for, for, for those, you know, you know, for people who came from, say, you know, poor backgrounds like mine, right?

Speaker 5 Like, I have been the outsider so many times in my life because my parents are poor.

Speaker 5 And I came from the country and I went to a high school that was 30 minutes away that was mostly suburban and urban that was way wealthier, right?

Speaker 5 So, like, I, you know, I'm a what, six foot four white guy, so I'm not trying to pretend like I've been, you know, but I have felt that like you're the outsider kind of mentality at a, at a much lower level.

Speaker 5 And the thought is like

Speaker 5 I wish we would just get rid of DEI and everyone just focus on fucking opportunity. Like everybody gets an opportunity.
If you think you can do this thing, you get a chance.

Speaker 5 Now, clear definable measurables, just as you said, you have to be able to make this turn. You have to be able to keep this airspeed.
You have to be able to hit a fucking curveball, right?

Speaker 5 Or whatever it is, right? You got to be able to do this math equation to calculate the trajectory of this rocket or whatever.

Speaker 5 But I think think what we've missed is like, get them the opportunities and let them prove it. And the ones that prove it, awesome.
And that goes for white males just as much as anybody else, right?

Speaker 5 Give them the opportunity and support the opportunity and then you get the best. The problem with it, and this is the part that I think has just been communicated poorly, is

Speaker 5 one misplaced person who gets put in a position who isn't qualified, who was put there to check a box,

Speaker 5 blows up the narrative for all the other people that are trying to do the right thing, right?

Speaker 5 And I wish, you know, this is why what's so frustrating about our current political conversations is that you can't have those nuanced discussions, right? You can't say, this is a wonderful program.

Speaker 5 And yeah, maybe we made one or two mistakes with putting someone in a position they weren't ready for because we wanted them there or whatever.

Speaker 5 But the program, the idea is really good. Let's not blow up the idea that what we're trying to do

Speaker 5 because of a couple situations where maybe we just made mistakes or we moved a little too fast or whatever, because there's, I know plenty of fucking white dudes who suck at what they do and got put there because their dad has money, you know, and it's like, what do we do with those people?

Speaker 5 They're, they're essentially DEI hires. Their dad had an amount of money or was part of this club.
So, and they knew John and John put him in that position. And he sucks just as bad as anyone else.

Speaker 5 But because his last name was XYZ, he's there. We don't ever talk about that scenario.

Speaker 5 And that's what bugs me because I don't want that guy on my team just as I wouldn't want anyone else who isn't on board, doesn't have the skills, and isn't pushing in the same direction.

Speaker 5 And so much of it is just messaging and this lack of ability to have real conversations.

Speaker 5 It's a very frustrating time from a communication perspective.

Speaker 4 It is. And so much of that communication happens on social media, right? And that is just not the place that you can have it.
People are so hateful. They don't understand nuance.

Speaker 4 The baby has been thrown out with the bathwater. And DI has become the witch hunt.
And that phrase has just been like you, it completely has to be rebranded and defined and clarified.

Speaker 4 And it's exactly what you're talking about. No one wants lowered standards, but that has become what it's synonymous with.

Speaker 4 And at least in the military side, there are so many incredibly impactful, good programs that fell under that umbrella that have gotten killed because of like just the

Speaker 4 machete chop of we want to make sure the standards are upheld, which yes, 100%.

Speaker 4 Like, it's always funny to me when I get hate on social media, which happens quite a bit in this current time frame, with people calling me out as a DEI hire on a video of me flying with the Thunderbirds.

Speaker 4 And I'm just like,

Speaker 4 I don't know if you understand the margin of error and the skill required to execute at this level. But

Speaker 4 just

Speaker 4 not to go down this rabbit hole for this whole conversation, but on the military side, some of the programs that fell under that umbrella were things like helping

Speaker 4 women have flight suits with extended zippers so we could pee in a fighter jet.

Speaker 4 After the Air Force has spent millions of dollars training, I'll speak to my personal experience, the Air Force spends millions of dollars training me.

Speaker 4 I'm about to go to a combat zone and deploy, and I need to wear a tan flight suit instead of a green flight suit.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 they don't stock the extended zipper flight suit because there's not enough demand.

Speaker 4 I literally cannot use the bathroom in my $30 million airplane while in a combat zone executing missions, which is the whole thing we're trying to do here.

Speaker 4 Because

Speaker 4 that is like an unfair advantage.

Speaker 5 You'd think they could make a couple custom suits for you if they don't have enough in stock.

Speaker 4 I mean, my local unit, that's what they went and they did. Like in the the local economy, they took a flight suit and they're like, went to a seamstress.

Speaker 4 We're like, can you put an extended zipper in this?

Speaker 4 There's like other stuff, though, that's like

Speaker 4 around childcare availability on bases.

Speaker 4 When you have two military parents that are working like shift work and they're 12-hour days and they can be deployed and all these things, childcare is so difficult.

Speaker 4 And one of the DEI things is helping make that childcare more available. It was getting paternity leave approved so that dads could take a week off or whatever it is with their newborn babies.

Speaker 4 So there's like

Speaker 4 so many things that just got crushed because we lost the narrative. And you're right.
So much of it is around messaging and it's just, it's been lost at the moment.

Speaker 5 Yeah,

Speaker 5 it's such a shame that, you know,

Speaker 5 it's hard, right? Because you see, like you look at like Doge, right, as kind of the bellwether for this slash and burn.

Speaker 5 And they found so many things that I think a lot of people thought were happening that were good that they found. And, but then, you know, mis-messaging and whatever.

Speaker 5 And then, and then the problem is, I feel like in an effort to kind of prove a point to everything that's been said for the previous four years about waste and fraud and all this kind of stuff to prove a point, now we've like cut into the meat a little too much

Speaker 5 on things that, you know, we've kind of lost the nuance again, going back to it. Like, like none of this stuff, as you've made, you've said a couple of times is black and white.

Speaker 5 Like, we have to kind of think through it. Like, all right, you know, let's open up opportunity.
Let's make sure everyone gets to try. Everyone gets the same test.
Everyone's results are transparent.

Speaker 5 We need to see all.

Speaker 5 But maybe we should also have like the ability for their kids to be taught and kept safe.

Speaker 5 So they're not in a $30 million fighter jet worrying if their kid's going to get fed lunch today because, you know, her husband is also, you know, deployed in some place.

Speaker 5 And like, that's the kind of shit that takes you out of, again, going back to where we started being present. You know, these are some of the nuanced things that we need to think through.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I think this is a really important topic.

Speaker 5 And, you know, I know it's not necessarily where we plan to go today, but I'm very glad that we spent time here because I think even if you're not, you know, we've kind of used sports and

Speaker 5 aviation as examples, but it completely applies to our business as well.

Speaker 5 I recently had a startup that I had in 2020 and I exited right at the beginning of 2024. And actually, I found some, like, people always ask, like, how do you hire all these?

Speaker 5 It was in the insurance industry. How do you all hire all these producers? How did you, where do you find these people? And I hired

Speaker 5 moms with young kids and single moms. And the reason was because traditional insurance agencies need you to be there from 8.30 to 4.30, hard, fast, you know, punch in, punch out.

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 5 I'm a single dad with an 11 and a nine year old. They could barf at school and I would have to stop talking to you right now and be like, I'm sorry.
I have to go get my kid that just barfed.

Speaker 5 Like I have to stop what I'm doing. And like they couldn't do those kind of things.
And some of them, like their kid got on the bus at 9.30. So they could, they couldn't log in until 9.45.

Speaker 5 And what we did, we put a very flexible environment in. But my point is like,

Speaker 5 there's so much talent out there. And the world is more complex.
It's more difficult. It's more expensive.
We have less free time in general.

Speaker 5 And I think, yeah, there's ways that we can work on that personally, but these are realities. Like as leaders we have to be more flexible to the talent we have because

Speaker 5 and my thought to that was always like if I can take the idea that she doesn't have to worry about getting her kid on the bus off her brain yeah when she does log in at 945 she's gonna be X more productive because she doesn't have that concern that her boss is pissed at her because she couldn't log in till 945 when everyone starts at 830 right and just you know that kind of thing is like this isn't rocket science, right?

Speaker 5 Like, we're, this is, this is basic understanding of human needs. And we just, this, this hardline mentality, it's, it's not a long term.

Speaker 5 I mean, maybe some of this macheteing was necessary in certain places, but my hope is we start to use our brains and add back in the pieces that are necessary and make sense.

Speaker 5 And we don't just take this as some political win and kind of carve it off.

Speaker 5 We're getting towards the end here, but I have to ask you this question only because I'm a nerd and you flow planes. Do you ever see anything crazy while you're up there?

Speaker 4 I mean, plenty of stuff as far as like, oh shit, moments, you know, where something goes wrong, near misses, that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 Nothing crazy. People are always like, have you seen a UFO? Yeah, that's what I want to know.

Speaker 5 Have you ever seen a UFO?

Speaker 4 Is that what you're asking?

Speaker 5 I would not be doing my job as a podcast host if I didn't ask you, so I have to ask.

Speaker 4 I have not seen anything weird like that.

Speaker 4 I know there are plenty of pilots who have, and I think it's like very refreshing that that stuff's being kind of openly talked about now and that even like the military, like I think the Navy released some stuff.

Speaker 4 And like I think we'd be fairly foolish to just draw a line in the sand and be like, this is not possible at all. Like, why wouldn't we approach that with curiosity?

Speaker 4 Like we do all sorts of science as we learn new things in space and we learn new things. Like there's just so much out there.
So, I mean, that would be cool.

Speaker 4 Maybe someday I'll be, now I'll be looking out my window of Southwest Airlines and be like, did you guys see that?

Speaker 5 If you, like you said, a lot of

Speaker 5 aviators in the military, their next natural progression is the commercial space. Like

Speaker 5 after flying a jet, could you ever fly like a Delta Airbus?

Speaker 5 Or would that like kill your soul?

Speaker 4 Well, so I didn't go do that. And part of the reason was I didn't feel like I would necessarily feel super fulfilled.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 4 But a lot of my friends do that. And a lot of them love it.
It gives them a lot of flexibility of like lifestyle because they'll do a couple day trips and then they're home when they're not on a trip.

Speaker 4 So the schedule compared to being in an active duty military is just like, wow, this is amazing. It pays well.
You know, I think being a pilot for a major airline is

Speaker 4 kind of held with prestige. Like people look up to the, like, it's kind of like, oh, I'm a doctor.
Oh, I'm a captain at United Airlines or whatever. So there's some stuff that people like around that.

Speaker 4 The retirement's good. The pension's good.
All the things. So I think it's kind of a means to an end of creating the lifestyle and the balance that they want.

Speaker 4 I don't think that they get the same type of fulfillment in the flying itself, especially if they came from a fighter background. Because it's just so different.

Speaker 4 It literally is going from, you know, driving a Corvette on a track to

Speaker 4 a school bus. So not to like, obviously we need highly trained professionals.
Like we look at all the things that are happening right now that are in the news.

Speaker 4 Like, you want the best pilots in those cockpits. Yeah.

Speaker 4 But I wouldn't say it's the most exciting flight. You are not allowed to go upside down, turns out.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 5 Although, if they can make it happen, I might be interested in that as a frequent flight.

Speaker 5 Yeah, like if there's, if there was like a like you could check a flight and say, we'll go upside down at some point between here and Vegas. And I'd be like,

Speaker 5 I'm into that today. I'll take that one.
No. It's like an upcharge.

Speaker 5 Still you're not. You have an incredible book coming out.
Before we go, can you just hit us with the high level? We're going to have links to the book coming out soon from the release.

Speaker 5 Not exactly sure when we dropped when the release is. I know it'll be close.

Speaker 5 And we'll have links so people can pre-order and all that kind of stuff. But just give us a quick on the book.

Speaker 5 And if people want to learn more, I know on your website and stuff, you have some ways for people to get like bonuses. So just give us a little breakdown on the book.

Speaker 4 Yeah, so the book comes out September 9th. So this should be out a little bit before that.

Speaker 4 But good play on going upside down because it's called The Flip Side: How to Invert Your Perspective and Turn Fear into Your Superpower.

Speaker 4 And we didn't get too much into it today, but I really, really struggled with that internal narrative for a long time while I was a fighter pilot of self-doubt, of the fear of failure, of fear of judgment.

Speaker 4 So I would kind of avoid opportunities and putting myself out there because those weren't just chances for opportunities, but they were chances to fail in front of everyone.

Speaker 4 And I was so afraid of that.

Speaker 4 And so the book takes a story in each chapter, some pretty harrowing stories from the cockpit, but it translates them into actionable tools, mindsets, the things that they taught me, how I came back from those hard times.

Speaker 4 And it's things that anyone can use in their own life. So this is definitely not written for other pilots.
It's not written for other people in the military.

Speaker 4 It is written for anyone who feels like they've held themselves back a little bit, like they are playing a little bit small and they know they have more potential.

Speaker 4 than they're currently fulfilling, but their fear gets in the way. And so I think it's a a really universal message that a lot of people need to hear.

Speaker 4 And it's just kind of framed around a really unique background and career and experiences that I got to have.

Speaker 5 Oh, I love that. Well, I appreciate you so much.
I'm so glad you came out here and shared a wonderful conversation.

Speaker 5 And like I said, guys, whether you're watching on YouTube or wherever you're listening, just scroll down. I'll have links to the book.
I'll have links to Mace's website and everything.

Speaker 5 I highly recommend you get into her world, get on the newsletter, et cetera. I love your perspective.
I love the way you approach things. And I'm just so glad that we had you on the show.

Speaker 4 Awesome. Thanks for having me.
And like you said, like this conversation went down a little bit different path than

Speaker 4 it usually does when I'm just talking about the book, but I think it's an important conversation to have. So I appreciate the time.

Speaker 5 Absolutely.

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Speaker 1 Hey, it's Parker Posey. How did I get here? I love improvisation when it comes to acting, but when it comes to a real-life plan, I stick to a script.
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