ESPN Emmy Award Winner Reveals Her SECRET to Career Motivation - Anne Marie Anderson

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Speaker 2 hello everyone and welcome back to the show we have a tremendous conversation for you today with ann marie anderson 35 year veteran of espn on air personality now has a best-selling book captivating audacity and what i love about anne-marie is her approach to breaking through the barriers that keep us from getting to where we want to go.

Speaker 2 So many people talk about the glass ceiling or, you know, kind of outsourcing the reasons that we are not able to get where we want to go.

Speaker 2 Amory repositions it as the sticky floor, allowing ourselves to remain attached to the base nature of what we do. This is an incredible conversation.

Speaker 2 She has amazing stories, sports personality, just dynamic, been all over the world. You are going to love this conversation.

Speaker 2 And I promise you, if you are struggling to break through to the success that you have on your brain, that you dream about, this is going to be a conversation that will give you the tools that you need to get there.

Speaker 2 Before we talk to Amory,

Speaker 2 I just want to say, as always, thank you for being here, guys. It means so much to me that you spend your time.
I know there's so many shows out there, so many things that could take your attention.

Speaker 2 And the fact that you choose to be part of this community, listen to this show means the world to me.

Speaker 2 And I hope that you feel the energy, passion, commitment to give it back to you and to continue to bring on amazing guests, as well as doing the individual solo shows that I drop once a week that dive into specific topics related to business, personal development that help you

Speaker 2 grow, that help you grow and make all your wildest dreams come true. Because

Speaker 2 if we're not going after all our wildest dreams, then what the hell are we doing, right? If you do enjoy this show, I would love for you to subscribe wherever you listen or watch.

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Speaker 2 And if you have thoughts, comments, if you just want to give a fist pound to Anne-Marie for being on here and appreciate her time, YouTube is ultimately the place that I collect all your feedback.

Speaker 2 I reply to all the comments, and I use it as an indication of what topics we should be addressing and what future guests we should bring onto the show to put in front of you.

Speaker 2 I love you for being here. I know you're going to enjoy this conversation.
Let's get on to Anne Marie Anderson

Speaker 3 In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

Speaker 2 Amory, it's great to have you on the show. Thanks so much, Tim, for thank you for taking the time to come on today.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I've been looking forward to this, Brian. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I love shows where

Speaker 2 I completely fumble the ball and, you know, we start as a complete mess because I feel like it adds a whole dynamic and energy to getting into it.

Speaker 2 But it's just, you know, I'm reading the book, cultivating audacity, and I look at the way that you approach topics and the way that you look through.

Speaker 2 you know, the filter that you're putting your thoughts through. And I'm very interested how,

Speaker 2 like, how did coming into an organization like ESPN you know being on camera and starting at such starting that career at such a young age like how much have you changed or your mental change or your mindset matured from say those early days when you first get in the door and it's probably bright lights and so much so everything's so exciting I mean ESPN's a very exciting organization

Speaker 2 and then having a 35-year career that that's continuing the ESPN and coming through all that like like what has that evolution been for you and when you look back, maybe what's the, what's one of the big things that you see different about you today as it was when you first started out?

Speaker 3 I mean, this fits right in. I'm far more audacious, right? I'm far more willing to take bold risks now than I was then.
You mentioned I started ESPN at 21 years old.

Speaker 3 Now, I'm a former collegiate athlete, and a lot of people who work at ESPN are either, you know, were athletes or involved in athletics in some way.

Speaker 3 And I think the thing that I remember the most from hitting the floor at 21 was how competitive everything was. Like every day was competitive because it's hard to stand out at a company like ESPN.

Speaker 3 So forcing yourself to come up with story ideas and different angles. I was shy, Ryan, by nature.
I wouldn't call myself shy now, but that's kind of being a new revelation.

Speaker 3 I've just been shy or introverted my entire life. So I think what I see now compared to then is just

Speaker 3 a real comfort with competition

Speaker 3 and a completely different

Speaker 3 perspective on like rejection and fear and all those emotions I felt at the beginning. Now for me, it's like everything's settled into data.
It's all data.

Speaker 3 Whether I get the outcome I want or I don't, it's just all information.

Speaker 2 How do you become comfortable with competition?

Speaker 3 Certainly being in athletics helps, I think. A big part of audacity is understanding you're going to take the risk and it's not about the outcome.

Speaker 3 And it seems so silly, but like the win in being audacious isn't like in getting what you want. The win is in taking action.

Speaker 3 And I think with competition, you'll see a lot of people that are afraid to take action. And so

Speaker 3 your first level of competition is with yourself saying, I don't want to do this. This doesn't feel good.

Speaker 3 I'm pretty sure I'm going to get smacked in the face with rejection here, but I'm going to jump and I'm going to do it. And I think just repeated practice of that.

Speaker 2 So I have two young kids, 11 and nine. They play sports, very competitive guy.
I played sports in college as well. And

Speaker 2 I look at, you know, I, I, I pass everything through and it's probably, I don't know, maybe it's boring to some people, but I think through my coaching experience, because I coach them both now, and I think through those coaching experiences and apply that to a lot of what I see in the business environment and what's going on.

Speaker 2 And, and it feels very much like, and maybe this moment in time, things are starting to switch back, but it feels like for a very long time, competition was almost seen as a negative, right?

Speaker 2 Like it's not whether you win or lose.

Speaker 2 It's how you play the game and, you know, all the trophy stuff, which, which I know is like a cliche that has been overused so much, but there's also a reality to it, right?

Speaker 2 Like it wasn't about winning. It wasn't about applying yourself at 100%.
It was like, well, you showed up and that's the win.

Speaker 2 And I just struggle with those type of platitudes because when I look at reality, like what it, what it actually means to be out in the business environment, having started my own businesses and had big wins, big fails, like it's not whether you show up or not.

Speaker 2 Like that's, there's no victory in showing up. Maybe like psychologically there's a victory, but there's certainly not in the real world.

Speaker 2 It's you actually have to get in, like you said, be audacious, compete, try things, like get, get numbers on the board.

Speaker 2 One, do you, do you agree that maybe certainly in our society, to a certain extent, competition has been frowned upon?

Speaker 2 And do you think the idea of being competitive and trying to win in a healthy way, right? Obviously, we see the clips on social media of people who are maybe unhealthily in competition.

Speaker 2 Do you think that is an important skill set and mentality to cultivate, especially in, say, maybe people that are in their early 20s that are starting out in their career?

Speaker 3 Absolutely.

Speaker 3 Look, competition is throughout your life. And I think one of the things I've observed, I also have a 12-year-old who I coach, is getting

Speaker 3 people comfortable with the idea of

Speaker 3 like battle, really, and competition. But I do think it starts with yourself.
As far as the negative connotations, like

Speaker 3 you're right, it has been there. And I don't care.
You know, I don't care because like the word audacity had negative connotations.

Speaker 3 And I've made an attempt here to change that because who's braver than somebody who like wants to take bold risks, not knowing what's going to happen. Same idea in competition.

Speaker 3 And part of the mentality, right, of being audacious and having this willingness to take bold risks is about competition.

Speaker 3 And I use the example of like, if you're losing by 12 at the half, why do you come out to play the second half, right?

Speaker 3 Because maybe if you get your act together, you have some defense, you start to work your offense a little bit, you'll win.

Speaker 3 But even if you don't win that game, you'll have data and information to work for so you can compete again, hopefully better for the next time. Same thing happens in business.

Speaker 3 You're not going to win every contract. You're not going to win every opportunity, every promotion.

Speaker 3 So to your point about showing up, I think there is something to that because even when you've been knocked down, you get up and show up the second time and take another big swing.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I think that's a really good point.

Speaker 2 I think that it's probably like all things. There are, there's a scale, right? There's showing up and just being there physically and not applying yourself.

Speaker 2 And that's, that's, I think that's the version of showing up that maybe I like to dispel or like to play against, but then, but I completely agree with you.

Speaker 2 Uh, and I've seen it in my own career, just you just have to keep coming back. Like, you know, try the next thing, try the next thing.
It's funny.

Speaker 2 We, we, uh, our basketball season just ended and we lost a really,

Speaker 2 we lost, we played very poorly and lost by a lot in our last game of the season. It was a tough one to go out, right?

Speaker 2 And my son after the game, he's very disappointed. He's kind of frustrated.
And, you know, he, he, you know, said a couple things to me. And I just like, I was like, look, man, you're 11 years old.

Speaker 2 Do you know how much better you will be next year because you just got your ass kicked than it was if you were on the other side and just dominated the other team? Like, because.

Speaker 2 you just were dribbling in the parking lot while you were waiting me to get for me to get all the gear in the thing. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, you're more motivated to come back and try again because you competed and had that loss and you learned from it.

Speaker 2 And I think, you know, we've, I think a lot of people look at the loss as the end when really it's just, as you said, I love that you put this way because I think of it the same, it's a data point.

Speaker 2 It's right. It's one data point and a series of where you're trying to go.
I love that idea.

Speaker 2 When we were, I want to jump to something that I didn't necessarily have on the docket, but you mentioned it when we were talking before we went live. And I just, I want you to dig into this concept.

Speaker 2 I think, and it's where we are in the conversation, this idea of a sticky floor. Can you break this down for us and let's go dive into this idea?

Speaker 3 Yeah. So first of all, as women, we talk a lot about the glass ceiling, right?

Speaker 3 So I don't believe the glass ceiling is a real issue. And I think that the sticky floor is a real issue for men and women.

Speaker 3 And what I mean by the sticky floor is we are stuck waiting for the right moment when everything is aligned, when we have all the qualifications, when we have every bit of material, when we have time, as if time is somehow going to open up for us and welcome us into life, you know, that right time never arrives.

Speaker 3 And here's an example that I give Ryan when I'm talking to groups. Let's say you and I both go in to, you and I both want the same job, okay?

Speaker 3 You go in and apply with 50% of the credentials, right? And I'm like, are you kidding me? They're going to hire Ryan. He's got 50% of the credentials.
You don't get the job. That's fine.

Speaker 3 You go back again, maybe at 65% of the credentials. And I'm still working behind the scenes to add to my stuff.
You don't get that job again, right? You still don't have everything you need.

Speaker 3 At 85% of the credentials, you and I both go in to apply. Maybe I've even got 90% and you've got 80, whatever it is.
Who's going to get that job?

Speaker 3 You are.

Speaker 3 Because you have now gone three times. You know the decision makers.
You know what they're looking for. And most importantly, they have watched you add skills.

Speaker 3 They have said, yeah, Ryan didn't have that much, but look what he's added. Look what he's added.
So by me waiting until I felt like I was ready, I lost.

Speaker 3 I mean, you want to talk about competition getting stuck there waiting? It doesn't make me any better to go in and be like, voila, I have everything you need, right?

Speaker 3 It's about the grit of coming back, getting the information and the data. The sticky floor is a killer because then there's this resentment that happens sometimes.
I can't believe they hired Ryan.

Speaker 3 Like, I have more credentials than him.

Speaker 3 No, sis, you lost because you weren't brave enough to take the swings early.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, it's funny.

Speaker 2 You throw out these concepts and then you start thinking about your own career. And I think about my own hiring process, right? And what I look for when I'm hiring people for my companies.
And

Speaker 2 I think I look for the person, like I used to say this, I want to work with people with a limp. I'm always looking for people with a limp, right?

Speaker 2 Like I want that person who's battered and bruised and scarred up and maybe he's a little rough around the edges, but I know that when shit gets hectic, they're the ones that are going to find the solution, that are going to work the extra hour that aren't going to, you know, say, well, my day ends at 4.30.

Speaker 2 So I'm going home, right?

Speaker 2 Like, and again, it's not always about putting more hours in or whatever, but you want like that perfectly polished, like there's this, this image, I think, in a lot of people's heads.

Speaker 2 And I just love the way this idea of sticky floor just completely resonates. I just love it.

Speaker 2 It, it's like, there's so many people that wait until they're this perfectly polished version of themselves.

Speaker 2 And I think any company that you actually want to work for, that leader is looking at you going, I know that's not who you really are because that's who no one is, right?

Speaker 2 Like, I want to see the dirty, grimy version of you that's going to come in on a Tuesday after you just, you know, you had, you went home and you had 15 things going on at home and you didn't get any sleep because you got a baby and, you know, and you, and you show up on, what's that version of you going to give me?

Speaker 2 And if I believe that that version is going to push through and be good for us, even despite you're not at 100%,

Speaker 2 I want you.

Speaker 3 So, you know what you want? You want a teammate, right? You want a teammate who's not going to walk off the floor and be like, We're losing, I'm out of here. That's what we want in business.

Speaker 3 Somebody who's a teammate, you know, you can say somebody who's in the foxhole with you, but that was

Speaker 3 something in ESPN that I really embraced because stuff goes wrong on live television all the time.

Speaker 3 And I always wanted to be, and I was, the teammate who was like, okay, you do that. I will distract them over here while we get this in on time so it can make air.
And that's what you want.

Speaker 3 You want somebody who's going to be like, let's figure this out. Maybe let's even think outside the box.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So if I, if someone's listening to this and they're doing a, maybe a little self-awareness

Speaker 2 and they're like, man,

Speaker 2 how do you break free of the sticky floor? If that's a problem that that you have, how do you start to break free of that mentality? Okay, you ready? Yes.

Speaker 3 You go fail.

Speaker 3 You go fail as often as you can. I was so worried all the time about being rejected and failing that I had to seek out opportunities to fail.
I literally sought them out, Ryan.

Speaker 3 There was a network that I wanted to do some work for freelance, and I knew that the person who hired was a bully. I'd heard it from everybody.
He was just a bully and demeaned people.

Speaker 3 So I went in, interviewed with him, as expected. He was dismissive, whatever, whatever, didn't want me.
Fine.

Speaker 3 That was the safest place for me to go back time and time and time again to get rejected.

Speaker 3 So I remember every time I saw him at a press conference or whatever, I would reach out like a crazy person and be like, hey, how are you? Anne-Marie Anderson, we talked before.

Speaker 3 Is today the day you're going to hire me? And he was like,

Speaker 3 no, what? And then I'd see him three months later. Hey, Anne-Marie Anderson, today the day, today the day.

Speaker 3 I kept doing that because every time, right, he says, no, I don't want to hire you, that rejection got less,

Speaker 3 less of a sting. Sure enough, a year and a half later, he came up to me and said, hey, today's the day.
I'm going to hire you. I worked for him.

Speaker 3 He was dismissive and a bully and everything I thought, you know, that we were going to be there did the work. And then he came back later and said, hey, I want to use you again for something.

Speaker 3 And then I could pass and say, no, it's not the environment I want to work in.

Speaker 3 But it's about setting yourself up time and time again to desensitize yourself to those fears and failures and rejections.

Speaker 2 It's practice, right? It's just crazy, but it's practice.

Speaker 3 Go swing for the highest thing first.

Speaker 3 If you have a bunch of things you want to accomplish and then there's the big thing, do that one first

Speaker 3 so you can fail at that and then come back around.

Speaker 2 Do you think that it's insecurity, ego?

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Speaker 2 You know, that we that we all deal with that

Speaker 2 maybe stop us from doing what you did. Because I think a lot of people listening, I think a lot of people are listening, nodding, going, what she said and what she did makes a complete sense.

Speaker 2 Yet I think less than 1% of the people listening listening would probably do what you did to get, to get that opportunity.

Speaker 2 So what are some of the things that maybe if some, again, we're thinking, we're self-evaluating here as you're talking through this idea of audacity and sticky floor.

Speaker 2 Like, what are some of the things that could be holding us back? Is it, I'm, if I do that, people are going to judge me? Is it I don't want my ego to get hurt?

Speaker 2 Is it that I just doubt I'm good enough to get that job? Like, what are those limiting beliefs?

Speaker 3 It's all of those things, but more than anything, the overriding is that you're putting somebody else's evaluation of you as law, right? They say no, and therefore I must not be good enough.

Speaker 3 Like, I'm not going to buy that from somebody. I may not be ready right now, whatever, but it's, it's, you know, who, who are you listening to?

Speaker 3 Is it your inner critic who says, now, that's the third time you got rejected, so I'd give this up if I were you. Just go in the closet, sit down.

Speaker 3 And, you know, it's just, you have to think about whose evaluation yes you're afraid right you're afraid of being exposed of being judged of being embarrassed you know whatever whatever it is so go be exposed judged and embarrassed i mean that's the quickest way to desensitize yourself and then you have to think about like am i saying this is a something on my this is an evaluation my failure means i'm not worthy of something

Speaker 3 Like, that's silly. You're trying to do something new.

Speaker 2 I tend to give these little monologues to my children when we're in the car.

Speaker 3 They love that, don't they? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I did have this like parenting moment of bliss where my younger son said something about a game negative about himself.

Speaker 2 And my older son turned around and like, bop, bop, bop, like, like in a, not an accusatory way. And like,

Speaker 2 but it was like something I had said to him. You know what I mean? He's like, he's like, you're better than that.
Like, never let your coach tell you you can't do, you know, whatever.

Speaker 2 And then he turned around. I like sat there for a second.
I was like, oh my God, they're listening.

Speaker 3 Like, they actually are listening um i know and ryan you i had the craziest thing happen this summer is well i have three kids right 20 17 and 12. so i had a

Speaker 3 network this year which is super bizarre this far late in my career and the head of the network said no i don't like your voice and i was like

Speaker 3 okay like what do you What do you want me to do? Like, if you don't like my voice, there's nothing I can do. So I was annoyed, right?

Speaker 3 That this opportunity got taken away because one person didn't like my voice. Like, I've never had that in my career.

Speaker 3 so and watch this now much people be like actually I don't like your voice either but um and I was having dinner with my 20 year old that night and he and I got together and I got frustrated I got teary and I was like this is ridiculous like seriously this far in that's the thing my son listened about a week later he said mom can we go have lunch like sure teenager asked you to have lunch you're like for sure i'm going to have lunch and i had been telling him like it kind of shook my confidence that thing like is there something wrong so here's what's so wild when the kids kids get older we sat down at lunch and he goes look i wanted to have lunch with you because i needed to talk to you about something and i thought did you just call a meeting with your mother like are we having a meeting now and he looks at me and he goes i don't understand how you can let somebody you've never even met shake your confidence he's like mom i'm a confident guy i haven't done anything yet you're confident you got awards and other things like are you kidding me and he goes mom you're a killer.

Speaker 2 Okay. You're a killer.

Speaker 3 And I'm thinking, am I being coached up by my own child right now? Like, Ryan, that's your future. It was the wildest thing.
Yeah. Because I'm listening to him and then I'm like, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 3 I am a killer. I am a killer.
Rejection means nothing. But when they start flipping around, like, that's your satisfied moment.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's wild. Oh, what amazing.
That's, that's like a life. That's like something you'll remember the rest of your life.
What a, what a tremendous moment. Yeah.
It's, it's, um,

Speaker 2 you know, I grew up in a, in a very kind of poor environment. I had good parents, but they kind of were just getting by.
You know, we, we, we just, I wasn't getting life lessons in the car, right?

Speaker 2 It was like, you know, I was, it was, I kind of latch key style. Uh, when I explained the way I was raised to my children, they look at me and they're like, what?

Speaker 2 I'm like, yeah, like practice would end and I would just sit there until either grandpa or grandma came to pick me up. I had no idea when they were showing up.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like, I would just sit there. And they're like, because, you know, because my kids, if you're not there five minutes early, they're having a, you know, they're like, oh my God, you know, know,

Speaker 3 I totally know.

Speaker 2 So, you know, I didn't get these lessons. So I feel this obligation to kind of give them some of these life lessons.

Speaker 2 And one of the things I say to them all the time is like, never let someone else dictate your future. Like,

Speaker 2 never let them. It doesn't mean they can't or won't push you in certain directions, but it's only, they're all, that only applies if you then stop.
Right. If you, if because of that, you stop.

Speaker 2 But if you keep going and keep pushing, eventually you're going to move move past that person. And, you know, that, that is such a hard lesson to get into people because

Speaker 2 I think, you know, it feels like everything is caught on camera today. And if you do, you know, we see, you know, you see someone who maybe you respect has a bad moment.

Speaker 2 And now all of a sudden that bad moment is plastered everywhere. And it's all anyone's talking about.
It feels like everything is on display. And, you know, I sit to them, I go,

Speaker 2 if you knew, because they really like Kobe Bryant. They love Kobe Bryant, which thank goodness.

Speaker 2 If they take on his work ethic and whatever it is they choose to do in their life they're going to be fine but i'm like if you actually dig into kobe's life there's a lot of moments in there that you know are not bright shining moments like we see some of them on on instagram or whatever but like there's a lot of stuff that isn't good but what i said the lesson from kobe is not his jump shot or how he prepared it was that the guy literally never stopped Like he just didn't stop.

Speaker 2 Like there was, there was no one until his body physically wouldn't allow him to play the game anymore.

Speaker 2 He did not stop moving forward, which is what made him so great, you know, maybe in addition to a couple other things.

Speaker 2 And, you know, in this idea of audacity and, and, and, you know, kind of removing ourselves from the sticky floor,

Speaker 2 you know, if you're in front of a group or you're doing one of your workshops, you know, how do you coach people to keep going through these moments and see past these no's so that they do try again, they do try again?

Speaker 2 Like, you know, are there any like mantras or mindsets or advice that you have for them so that that next no they get doesn't stop them from continuing to pursue that thing?

Speaker 3 Absolutely. Can I tell you a little bit about Kobe first before I go there?

Speaker 3 So my time with ESPN when I was full staff, I was Los Angeles Bureau producer, so which means I was at the forum Kobe's first day coming in, right? A teenager drafted, 17 years old.

Speaker 3 And I remember, because my point in telling you this is like Kobe's

Speaker 3 mentality was authentic and he just owned it.

Speaker 3 Being there and watching him walk in and we're all like, I don't know, I think you're thinking at 17, he's going to kiss the ring a little bit, he's going to hang back,

Speaker 3 which Kobe didn't do. Media ate it up, of course, but it rubbed some people wrong on the Lakers.
And watching him and his belief that he belonged. there

Speaker 3 at a very young age was really inspiring.

Speaker 3 And then watching how hard he worked when you've got somebody that talented to work so hard, to your point, with all those failures and all those messy moments.

Speaker 3 And he cared that his teammates didn't like him. I mean, it wasn't like he didn't care.
Everything, he just couldn't control what they felt about him.

Speaker 3 Of course, Phil Jackson came in, made some changes, you know, and was able to really massage that effort. But one of the things I admired about Kobe was, to your point, you say he was never done.

Speaker 3 Even when he retired from basketball, he was still not done. He was going to have the greatest sports academy.
He was going to be the greatest coach for young women. He was going to champion.

Speaker 3 Like, there's always that next,

Speaker 3 that next way to be great and challenge yourself. So when somebody is getting no's, how do you get them up to do that next no?

Speaker 3 You have to convince them that no means not yet or next, and that it's a comma and it's just going to redirect you. There is no no

Speaker 3 that is final in my mind in in any way it you know if you don't think i can do it okay well you don't think i can do it maybe i still think i can do it until the data proves me wrong in which case i'll go in a different direction yeah i uh it's funny when when you talk to athletes entrepreneurs you know anyone who's who's had a successful career

Speaker 2 When you when you like dig in and you and you have that casual off-the-cuff conversation, you never hear the stories where they won. You never, those are ever the stories that they tell.

Speaker 2 It's, I was, you know, I, I had this idea for a company and I raised this money and we, and then I blew it here, and this didn't work and the market changed and I made this mistake and this fell apart.

Speaker 2 And man, you know, and but in my next company, you know, I fixed that problem. And it's, you know, it's funny, we, we, so many people avoid loss, avoid loss, play it safe, sit back, the sticky floor.

Speaker 2 I'm not ready. Yet when you, when, you know, and I'm blessed to be able to have this platform and bring on incredible people like yourself, right?

Speaker 2 And they tell these stories, they all, they always only want to talk about the mistakes they made because it's like they wear those as the badges of honor, not the accolades and the awards and the exits.

Speaker 2 They want to talk about the places where they messed up and those are the badges of honor. And I think that message is just, it's like.

Speaker 2 If the most successful people and whatever it is you do wear their losses as their badges of honor, why is it that you avoid loss at all costs, right? Like it just doesn't, it doesn't line up.

Speaker 3 No, people think that staying the same is safe. Somehow, I always say I have, I don't have FOMO, I have FOSS, like the fear of staying the same.

Speaker 3 Because the only thing that staying the same ensures is that no growth is possible, right? If you're the same, you're like, you're definitely. not going to grow.

Speaker 3 And it's interesting hearing you talk about that because, yeah, the story that I always tell when people are like, oh, you've been on television and doing this for, you know, decades and decades.

Speaker 3 And And I'm like, yeah, my first time ever on live television, I was supposed to be like regional football sidelines in the Mountain West. Someone got sick, things got changed around.

Speaker 3 And so my very first time on live television was on ESPN2, which was opening weekend of college football. At that time, ESPN2 was in 70 million homes.

Speaker 3 I was losing my mind outside the stadium, crying to my husband at the time, like, just what you want in your reporter, like tears coming down.

Speaker 3 You know, and it was like, what's, he's like, Emery, what's the worst that could happen? And I was like, oh my God, you want to know the worst?

Speaker 3 You know, I could be so bad that not only will I never be allowed on air again, but I will lose my producing job and I could lose my entire. you know, career in television over this.

Speaker 3 And if I lose my career, I'm going to be a miserable person.

Speaker 3 And if I'm a miserable person, you'll have to leave me because I won't be able to be a good mother to our children who aren't even born yet. And I could die destitute and alone, Matt.

Speaker 3 That's what could happen. And he was like, come on, Like, really?

Speaker 3 But when you catastrophize the whole thing, sometimes that will be enough to snap you out of like, okay, I'm probably not going to die.

Speaker 3 I'm just afraid that I'm going to be bad, exposed, judged, and embarrassed. And then I went on and I was bad, exposed, judged, and embarrassed.
And I survived.

Speaker 3 And I got up the next week and did it again. And yeah, I had friends who were like, ooh, that's, yeah.

Speaker 3 Are you sure you want to do this? And I was like, yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 So I just did a TEDx talk two weeks ago congratulations thank you it was it was uh it was it was a really cool experience but i've probably done north of 350 keynotes in my life i've been doing it for 15 years uh

Speaker 2 rarely do i get i get that energy that you get when you're going to be in front of an audience but i don't get the anxiety anymore right

Speaker 2 But for this talk,

Speaker 2 all of a sudden, it was like the first time all over again where my like muscles are tense. My, I can't, you know, I can't remember sections.

Speaker 2 Like, like, I just was a, you know, all of a sudden I became, I went, I reverted all the way back to, to like that first time.

Speaker 2 And I'm, I'm pacing in the lobby outside. I'm reading my notes as if reading them again for the thousandth time is going to get them into my brain.
And I'm doing exactly what you just said, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, here I am this deep into my career and I'm all the way back to like, I'm going to skip this section and then I'm not going to hit this point and then I'm gonna mess up this experience that I've been working on for a year that I've been you know blah blah blah

Speaker 2 and I'm like going through this whole thing and finally I like sat down and thank God I had a very good friend who who came to the event and was just sitting in the audience and he looked at me and he's like dude you're gonna do great and like I had this moment of like

Speaker 2 The only reason I feel this way is because just like you said, I have catastrophized this experience and created this entire scenario that has not happened in the future of all these things.

Speaker 2 And as soon as I like chopped that and, you know, and thank God that he was there and he said what he said, because it was just like this awakening.

Speaker 2 And all of a sudden I just go, well, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. Here we go.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and then went out and actually there was a slide snafu, you know, two slides in, whoever was running the, because, cause like TEDx events are very produced.

Speaker 2 So like someone's running the slides. And they, after my second slide, someone back on the panel must have hit a button and it went to like the main,

Speaker 2 like went off of my slides to like the backdrop that sits in between speakers, right?

Speaker 2 So now I'm in the little red dot and my confidence monitor is now showing something that's not supposed to be there. And I just, you know, I kind of took a pause as if I meant to, right?

Speaker 2 And it was probably five seconds at most, maybe three seconds. It felt like a lifetime.

Speaker 2 But and then it went back to my slide and then I came back in and finished and it ended up being, you know, I was very happy happy with what I did. But like,

Speaker 2 it's so like literally the catastrophe happened. But if I was still in that, I love this term that you use, catastrophizing.
That's, you should trademark that.

Speaker 2 If that's not already, Trama, you should. Uh, this catastrophizing mindset, then I completely fall apart in that moment, right?

Speaker 2 Because I'm, I'm, this, oh, this is what I expected to happen and it happened, and blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 And instead, I just like took a long pause like I would if I were doing a normal keynote for a second, as if I was gathering myself or going to deliver some powerful line.

Speaker 3 Good moment, Yeah.

Speaker 2 Right back to it.

Speaker 2 And so it literally was the difference between what you said, like instead of projecting out all these terrible things, which is, which I think comes back to when we're talking about the reason why people are so afraid of no is because they take that one no

Speaker 2 and then they create this entire timeline of horrible things that are going to happen from it.

Speaker 2 And if it's just like, what if you did the same exercise, except everything that happens after that no is amazing. Yeah.
How much less do you care, right?

Speaker 2 It's just, it's, it's such a wonderful thought.

Speaker 3 Um, it's hard, though. I will say, for people listening, they're like, Yeah, this all sounds really easy.

Speaker 3 It's hard to get that momentum, but there is a certain pride that you feel in yourself once you have put yourself out there that really isn't attached to the outcome.

Speaker 3 You're like, God, I did it, whatever. I bungee jumped off that bridge, I stood in front of a crowd and delivered a speech.
Like, there's this pride of, like,

Speaker 3 yeah, I did that.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 oftentimes,

Speaker 2 those around us,

Speaker 2 they respect the effort as much as they respect the win, right? The win comes with more accolades, but from a respect.

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Speaker 2 of peers and people around you you know they may say like ooh i wouldn't want to fail like that on tv or whatever yeah but at the same time, in the back of their head, they're like,

Speaker 2 But shit, she did it, right? She put herself out there. Like, I wouldn't have done that.
Like, that's pretty impressive.

Speaker 2 So, it's almost like there's gonna be positives that come out of it, even if you can't imagine them.

Speaker 2 And there's gonna be someone, you know, again, just to the voice point, if people don't like your voice, they've been miserable listening to my podcast because my voice is not even.

Speaker 2 But, um, you know, but like, there's always gonna be someone who watches that and goes, Yeah, she kind of messed that up, but geez, I really like the way she did this one thing at the end.

Speaker 2 Like I could see that in my program. Like I'd really like her to maybe come to, so there's, but no one would see that if you didn't do it.
And I just love that.

Speaker 3 And how much do you value that? Like I had a friend of mine who

Speaker 3 would always criticize people on TV. Right.
And so we'd be watching something. She'd be like, oh, that was terrible.
And this and that. But did she ever do it? No.

Speaker 3 And I actually let that hold me back from trying because I thought she's going to judge me. And sure enough, like after my first time on air, she didn't call.
Like she was a good friend.

Speaker 3 She didn't call or talk to me or anything. And the deal is this, like 35 years later, she still criticizes people on TV.
You know, she doesn't have her own career.

Speaker 3 And I'm like one of those people on TV who gets criticized and doesn't care.

Speaker 3 And so like now I realize, oh, right, sometimes people just want to observe because they're letting their own fears get in the way of really admiring what's going on.

Speaker 2 Well, you don't have the three Emmy awards that are sitting off your shoulder if you're not willing to be out in front of people and get criticized.

Speaker 2 Like it's just, you can't have the one without the other, right? There's a reason.

Speaker 2 You didn't win those awards because every moment from moment one to the moment that you're getting the award was perfect. That's, that doesn't happen, right? Like there's just absolutely no way.

Speaker 2 There's no way to learn the lessons that you need to learn if you do not have the failures.

Speaker 2 So it's almost like we need to start, we need to reframe our mindset from accumulating victories to accumulating failures because

Speaker 2 to your, to, to like one of the first things you said,

Speaker 2 we have to detach from the outcome. The outcome literally can't matter.

Speaker 3 It's really wild when you make friends with fear. And I really do mean that.
Because we've been told what, Ryan? Like push away, conquer your fears, overcome your fears.

Speaker 3 None of that's going to happen. None of that.
Fear is always going to be with us. It's a natural part of the process.

Speaker 3 So when you make friends with it, when you bring it in and you get curious about it, you can have a conversation with saying, I hear you, I get it, and everything, but you're not going to get to make decisions for me.

Speaker 3 You can be in the passenger seat, but you do not get to drive. And it changes everything when you acknowledge the fear instead of like trying to shove it down.
No, no, no, I'll be great.

Speaker 2 I'll be great.

Speaker 3 You know what? Maybe I may not be great, but let's give it a go. Changes everything, recalibrating that relationship with rejection.

Speaker 2 I had John Azeroff on the podcast a few weeks ago,

Speaker 2 brilliant neuroscience guy.

Speaker 2 And he was talking about

Speaker 2 a slightly different topic, but he brought up this idea that fear and excitement light up the same neural pathways in our brain.

Speaker 2 So he's like, if that's the case, then literally all you have to tell your brain is it's excitement, not fear.

Speaker 2 Now, again, easier said than done, but he's like, he's like, your brain is acting the exact same way.

Speaker 2 as if you were completely excited and energized with zero fear as it would as if you have the fear. Like the same pathways are lighting up.

Speaker 2 So just reframe that fear as excitement and it will help take down your anxiety and your stress because now you're energized to do the thing, not feeling anxious to do the thing. And

Speaker 2 sometimes I think these like

Speaker 2 mind hacks are, you know, stack enough of them on top of each other and eventually you find one that works, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 3 Again, it's about like when I feel that. now that nervousness or anxiety, I do get fired up.
And that sounds crazy, just knowing how shy I was and everything, but I'm like, oh boy, here it comes.

Speaker 3 Do you feel that? Like, I literally would talk to myself, do you feel that?

Speaker 2 Okay, here we go.

Speaker 3 Like fear is an invitation to grow. And that is, it, it took a lot of convincing of myself.
And that's something I try to go through in the book and explain to people.

Speaker 3 Here's your four barriers that stand between you and the thing you want to do. It's usually fear, time, money, or your inner critic.
So dig into each one.

Speaker 3 And I, I don't just tell people you should dig in.

Speaker 3 I show you how to dig in step by step through and then how to reevaluate going forward so that you keep yourself with that right on that level of like anxiety, energy, excitement, fear.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I think a little bit of fear is a good thing, right? Like it keeps you leveled. Like if you were, if you were taking on a big task, like if I had approached that TEDx talk or you had approached,

Speaker 2 you know, your, your first time on live TV with zero fear. Well, now you might approach it cavalier.
You might miss something.

Speaker 2 Like there's a reason fear is in our body and it's not, it's not always a negative, right? It's right. It heightens our senses.
It makes us more aware. It dials us in and focuses us.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, when you're truly scared, you're as focused as focus gets. So these are all really positive things, especially when you're engaging in a really strong moment.
Like, you know, to

Speaker 2 believe that.

Speaker 3 to believe you know to believe that you should be void of fear i think is completely misunderstanding the way your body works and the way your brain works absolutely and i think too like people get so worried right about what others will think and and what i tell people when they're trying to figure it out is to swing for the fence and sell things and i say look we all remember the guy at the bar the guy at the bar who would ask one woman after another woman after another woman out until somebody said yes like he didn't dwell on any of those rejections he just went on to the next and on to the next until somebody said yes i'm like sorry you got to be the guy at the bar sometimes and be like, this is a no.

Speaker 3 I think I sent out, I always show my oldest son because he only sees the victories, mom, you're killing it. You got that and you got this, and you got a, you know, a number one new release.

Speaker 3 And so I'll show him, I'll send him the rejections and I will also send him, hey, it's Monday morning and I got 50 emails I compose that are going out to various conferences and this and that.

Speaker 3 I might get three responses and one booking out of it. You know,

Speaker 2 it definitely is

Speaker 2 the people who achieve things,

Speaker 2 this mindset that you have addressed in your book and this idea of audacity. Like there are so many stories of some of the most

Speaker 2 widely read, most, most, most award-winning books, and there'll be like 17 rejections, 59 rejections, 37 rejections, right?

Speaker 2 And it's like, and people don't ever, they just think, well, the first, you know, he must have had publishers banging down his door.

Speaker 2 She must have had, you know, the first publisher she sent it to picked it up. And it's like, one, that's almost never the the case and two

Speaker 2 it's it's just this

Speaker 2 there's also something to and and and and you know tell me how you feel about this like

Speaker 2 sometimes that that gatekeeper to the thing that you want to do part of their process is to see if you'll come back like they may even think you're a good fit but tell you no to see if you'll try again because it's that resilience and commitment that goes, okay,

Speaker 2 she's a prime time player. Like I told her no, even though she knows she probably was qualified for this, she came back again despite the no, I got a winner.

Speaker 2 Like it's, it's, it's a, it's a gatekeeping tactic for some people to see if you're, if you're willing to do it.

Speaker 2 And if you give in, well, now you've just played right into what they were trying to filter out, even if you're, even if you were the perfect fit for that job. Yep.

Speaker 3 I mean, when I applied to ESPN when I was 21, I was rejected. I went in, had the interview with them.
They asked me to, you know, analyze the Mariner's bullpen.

Speaker 3 This This is before Randy Johnson was in the bullpen. And I froze.
I didn't know how to do that, how to overcome it. 21, they were very polite.
Sorry, you're not what we're looking for.

Speaker 3 And I was like, okay.

Speaker 3 And I drove back to New York and I was steaming mad at myself, not at them, because I choked. And I was like, how do you choke?

Speaker 3 You know, and so I wrote a letter back to them and it was a pretty audacious letter in hindsight, you know, where I said, you know, I don't think I did a very good job showing what I could add.

Speaker 3 You have a million guys who could do stats, spit out stats and numbers and this and that. Here's what I can add.
And I had already worked in television.

Speaker 3 And they ended up hiring me for a six-month temporary job working six at night to three in the morning, six days a week, Mondays off for $15,000 a year.

Speaker 3 And I thought, wait a second, what if I had never gone back?

Speaker 3 What if I had accepted that first no? I've got my entire life, my entire career has been in sports television, most of it with ESPN. So like,

Speaker 3 what if I had accepted that first no? Like, what would my life look like?

Speaker 2 Something that I've pulled from our conversation today is a general sense of self-awareness. Like you seem to evaluate

Speaker 2 yourself, your performance in both the moment and maybe who you are. Like, where do you think, like, is that a learned trait? Do you think it's innate to you that you're self-aware?

Speaker 2 Or do you think this is something you have developed this ability to say? Because I don't think a lot of people would drive back and be mad at themselves.

Speaker 2 Maybe a little, but I think a lot of people would then spin it to, well, they just didn't see what I could do and I got all this potential and blah, blah, blah, right? Like I was a college athlete.

Speaker 2 Like, of course, like, I think instead, you're driving back mad at yourself and willing to write them a letter and say, you know, this wasn't my best performance. I know I can do better.

Speaker 2 And here's the take that given another opportunity, I could give you this. Like,

Speaker 2 there's an incredible amount of self-awareness that goes into that. So is it learned? Is it not? And if it is learned, how does someone who maybe struggles with self-awareness today,

Speaker 2 if they struggle with self-awareness, maybe they don't know that they struggle with self-awareness, but if they did, let's say,

Speaker 2 how could someone maybe possibly work being more self-aware into their lives?

Speaker 3 What I always thought was they can't fire me because they haven't hired me yet. So, whenever I'm in that situation throughout the last 35 years, then it's like, let's go.

Speaker 3 Like, I get excited when somebody hasn't hired me, then I'm like, full swing. I get more tentative when I'm already working for them and I'm thinking, oh, is this a, is this a good idea? So for me,

Speaker 3 I did teach myself to get excited at the word no. No, meaning not yet or next.
Like I, I had to tell myself, here's an opportunity. I like being the underdog anyway.

Speaker 3 And so, you know, being a woman in sports television back in the late 80s and early 90s, like, yeah,

Speaker 3 you're definitely an underdog. But I think it's about looking at

Speaker 3 what's the worst that could happen. I mean, I do.
I believe in catastrophizing it and teaching yourself that there's opportunity and all these no's and all these rejections.

Speaker 3 I did teach myself that. And part of it is the ability to compete.
I mean, people who shy away from competition.

Speaker 3 really have a hard time in business and in life and in getting hired. I mean, I want to hire somebody who's willing to take a risk, fail, take direction.
That's a big one, right?

Speaker 3 Not that you just know everything

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 move forward. That's what excites me.

Speaker 2 Anne-Marie Anderson, the book is cultivating audacity. This has been a tremendous conversation.

Speaker 2 I have, I've absolutely adored it.

Speaker 2 And I think, you know, this is your book is a, is, is a, it's a playbook for what we've talked about today, for stepping outside of yourself, for moving forward, for making those big moves.

Speaker 2 We'll absolutely, guys, have a link to the book in the show notes or YouTube description, wherever you're watching or listening.

Speaker 2 But where else can people get more of you and get deeper into your world? Do you have a newsletter or whatever? Where can people kind of connect with you and go deeper?

Speaker 3 Yes, thanks. My website's the best place to start, annmarieanderson.com.
There's an E on the end of Anne.

Speaker 3 You can get the first chapter of Cultivating Audacity there for free so that you can kind of see how it works a little bit.

Speaker 3 And then I'm not just telling you to go for it, but I'm going to help you show you how.

Speaker 3 and then you'll find me on Instagram certainly there's a newsletter you can sign up unapologetically audacious you can find that on the website as well I love it thank you so much we appreciate your time and wish you nothing but the best going forward thank you for having me Ryan great conversation

Speaker 3 In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

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