237. From GloveBox to Marshberry FirstChoice: The Andy Mathisen Story

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Speaker 4 Are you ready to get spicy?

Speaker 5 These Doritos golden sriracha aren't that spicy.

Speaker 4 Sriracha sounds pretty spicy to me.

Speaker 5 Um, a little spicy, but also tangy and sweet.

Speaker 4 Maybe it's time to turn up the the heat.

Speaker 5 Or turn it down.

Speaker 5 It's time for something that's not too spicy. Try Dorito's Golden Sriracha.

Speaker 4 Spicy,

Speaker 5 but not too spicy.

Speaker 8 In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

Speaker 1 Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.

Speaker 6 Today we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you, a conversation with Andy Matheson,

Speaker 9 former co-founder of Glovebox and now regional sales director for First Choice, which is a Marshberry company.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 10 I wanted to have Andy on because

Speaker 10 Andy worked for more than six years in a family-owned independent agency, Colorado Insurance.

Speaker 10 He then founds this incredible startup, Glovebox, which I'm sure many of you have heard about. And for a whole bunch of reasons, which Andy talks about,

Speaker 10 he now has left Glovebox and become, you know, working with Marshberry First Choice as a regional sales director, helping agencies across across the country grow and develop.

Speaker 10 And, you know, that type of move is a move that

Speaker 10 I think many would struggle with. I think many would worry what maybe the perception of that move is.
And Andy had to make this move for a lot of reasons.

Speaker 10 And those reasons are his. And I think they're important.
And I think we all struggle at different times with how our professional life impacts our personal life.

Speaker 10 And I think that kind of the Andy Matheson story, which is obviously the title of this episode,

Speaker 10 is a wonderful display of a thought process on how to make the right decision for yourself and for your family and how to prioritize meaning and happiness over public perception necessarily.

Speaker 10 I think Andy's an incredible guy. I always love talking to him and I think you're going to love this episode, which is episode number 237.
Guys, I love you for listening to this show.

Speaker 10 As I've mentioned many times, every week our show is growing and we have more and more subscribers, more and more listens, more and more downloads, more and more

Speaker 10 watches or whatever you call them on YouTube.

Speaker 10 You know, it's just such a pleasure to bring you these conversations.

Speaker 10 And whether it's the solo episodes that I do where I try to put, you know, a new, you know, kind kind of reframed or contrarian or just, you know, some sort of idea in front of you that you can consider and think through and just, you know, question some of the norms in our industry in a way that, you know, hopefully some of which you can apply, some of which you can toss that into the garbage.

Speaker 10 I mean, that's the point. Not every idea works for everybody.

Speaker 10 And then these incredible conversations that I have with people like Andy who are so willing to come on and share their time and their story and their expertise and their experience.

Speaker 10 I just, it's a very meaningful process and I just couldn't thank you more for being part of it.

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Speaker 10 I just appreciate you for

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Speaker 10 I respond to every single comment and I, you know, it's a wonderful place to capture thoughts, capture ideas. And if you want to go even farther down the rabbit hole, go to masterclass.insure.

Speaker 10 That's masterclass.insure.

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Speaker 10 And as we get closer to launching the coursework around being, you know, kind of the first piece of coursework we're going to put out is kind of our one-call close process, you know, what it means to be a closer, et cetera, talking through how to generate, you know, kind of fill your funnel with inbound leads.

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Speaker 10 But with all that said, I appreciate you. I love you.
And let's get on to Andy Matheson.

Speaker 8 Good to see you.

Speaker 6 Yeah, good to see you too, bud.

Speaker 6 What's the haps, man? What's going down?

Speaker 8 Depends on the moment.

Speaker 8 Obviously, a moving target with all the new stuff going on for me, but it's been outstanding. I mean, I'm in a very comfortable place now.

Speaker 8 And I'll be honest, like my stress level went from way up here to like way down here for the first time in like seven years. So

Speaker 8 feels good. Feels good.

Speaker 8 Needed that.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I get it. You know, what do you get it? You do.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I do. It's,

Speaker 6 you know, it's funny. I was talking to, I have a, I have a mentorship call every other week with a very good friend of mine.

Speaker 6 And we're kind of accountability partners and the different things that we're trying to do in our lives. And

Speaker 6 it was funny, I was sharing a story with him

Speaker 6 about,

Speaker 6 you know, just

Speaker 6 how

Speaker 6 much stress and anxiety will allow us, like, we'll believe anything our mind or our body tell us when we're stressed or anxious, right? Totally.

Speaker 6 When you're in a good place and you're feeling good and you're feeling motivated, your mind or your body can be like, I'm tired.

Speaker 6 And you're like, fuck you, body, or your mind can be like, oh, you need to have another drink or you need to, you can be like, no, you, like, I'm good. Like, I'm crushing.
I'm going.

Speaker 6 And then you hit a patch of anxiety and stress. And all of a sudden, your mind is like, hey, man, like, why don't you have like three glasses of whiskey tonight?

Speaker 6 Or why don't you not go to the gym today? And your body's like, oh, I'm kind of tired. Sleep in.
And you're like, sure. You just say yes to all of it.

Speaker 8 You fall into a lot of traps.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And, and, and then all of a sudden you wake up one day, like, you start that for whatever reason, that stress or anxiety, like you get a little window, like a window will open and you look and you'll go, what am I freaking doing?

Speaker 8 Like, dude, I had so many of those cycles, so many of those cycles for the past, like from 2022 to end of 23, it was just constant. And it became so obvious that,

Speaker 8 you know, my brother and I had to have a heart to heart. And it was like, dude, not that you're not bringing value to Glovebox, but.

Speaker 8 we need to understand where your head's at because this in and out approach of being here, being gone, being here, being gone is draining to the company. And it sucks for you.
And

Speaker 8 I felt it worse than he did. It was like

Speaker 8 i know that it's happening and that sucks and that's not what we set out to do and like dude i i think i kind of most people know by now but it's like single dad stressed as can't lead a team anymore because i'm always constantly being torn on every angle of my life and it was just weighing on me so i had to make the right choice for the company and for myself and i'm so thankful that i'm in this in this seat right now it feels a lot better so dude i'm one i'm happy for you I am, and I know you don't need this, but I'm very proud of you for making this decision, you know, also single dad, also having gone through a lot of shit, you know, like I, I completely feel you.

Speaker 6 And, you know, it's funny.

Speaker 6 Um, since I started finding peak, the coaching and consulting company that is now what I do, dude, the number of people that have reached out to me on the side and said, bro, you know, what's this?

Speaker 6 Just another thing you're going to do for like six months or you always do this, you're always changing, you know, you've never committed to any, like, dude, the freaking people that come out of the woodwork and like question your decisions, question, and I'm like, and, and, you know, it took me, took me a second, right?

Speaker 6 Cause, cause I was like taken back. And then actually, you know, I called, uh, I called uh Jason Cass, who, you know, he's been probably my, my oldest friend in the industry.
And, um, you know,

Speaker 6 I just said, dude, you know, I just was sharing with him my, my struggles, as I'm sure, you know, you share with your brother or whoever else, you know, and you're just like, you know, I'm just like, dude, like, I, you know, I don't understand why,

Speaker 6 I don't understand why

Speaker 6 all I've ever wanted to do, and I, and I know this about you, it's why you and my, me are friends, it's why I connect with you.

Speaker 6 Like, all you want to do is add value, build things, you know, help people, lead people. Like, like, this is what you're trying to do with your life.

Speaker 6 And life throws these curveballs at you and you just have to make tough decisions. And that's kind of what I want to get back to with you.
But like

Speaker 6 the lack of empathy or lack of understanding or just complete callousness that people will have to, I have to make a life decision that like isn't on some linear path, linear expected path that you, you know, you might think is the right way to go based on what I was doing previously.

Speaker 6 But like, totally, it's also like the real world. And

Speaker 6 being able to get through that is a superpower. And I'm sure you've gotten some of it.

Speaker 6 And that's what I'm really interested in, I guess, at the beginning here is like, I'm sure you've gotten both sides of it, right? Like, hey, man, so happy for you.

Speaker 6 Glad you're in a place you're killing it. And then the other side is like, dude, how could you leave this company? I'm sure you've got it both.
Like, literally

Speaker 6 just yesterday. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
How do you deal with that? That's to me, really interesting.

Speaker 8 The empathy piece is really interesting because typically people hear things, doesn't matter what the topic is, and they have an immediate opinion.

Speaker 8 It doesn't matter what, like putting yourself in someone else's shoes.

Speaker 8 It's like, oh, how could they possibly how could they possibly do a b or c for me i always try and uh give the benefit of the doubt that they didn't consider what people actually go through on a daily basis and so i'm typical like first my first reaction now because i'm calloused as well is like okay they just don't get it it's fine like the false narratives are all over the place and i have to be okay with the reality that like people are going to think what they're going to think i don't have to recreate the narrative i don't necessarily need to even tell my story however

Speaker 8 I want to. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 And there's a lot of things that happened in the past 24 months that have been entertaining,

Speaker 8 interesting to

Speaker 8 give different, get a different perspective on.

Speaker 8 Have some insight into what other people do that I've never realized before. And at the end of the day, that has made me a very well-rounded expert in the industry.

Speaker 8 And so, but going back to your original question, it just gives me an opportunity to get in front of more people, talk about more things. These are icebreakers, man.

Speaker 8 These are just icebreakers because now we lead into other things together. So I've just taken it as opportunities, man.
That's really all it comes down to.

Speaker 8 I'm not going to control what other people think, but I will turn it into an opportunity.

Speaker 6 So, you know, man, a good buddy of mine, someone I've known for a while, Aubi Knight, said to me the other day, uh, dogs don't park it, dogs don't bark at parked cars.

Speaker 6 So, how I've always wrapped my head around this,

Speaker 6 you know, I take a lot of shit and I deserve some of it because I'm very open and honest with my opinions. And a lot of my opinions are contrarian.

Speaker 6 And so I deserve to have people push back on me and it's part of the job. So I totally.
But

Speaker 6 sometimes people will say things and it'll get under your skin a little bit, even though, you know, I don't care how and I've heard like.

Speaker 6 It was funny, I heard Tony Robbins on a clip the other day talking about this. And I'm like, oh my God.

Speaker 6 I'm so glad I heard this because because if Tony Robin, if people can still get under Tony Robbins' skin, that's going to feel so bad when people get under mine.

Speaker 6 So like, you know, so, you know, and, and I just have to say myself, and it was funny, uh, Aubi, you know, I was sharing this with him. I was like, you know, I've caught,

Speaker 6 you know, I don't want to tell the rogue story anymore. It is what it is.
And I'll,

Speaker 6 you know, all the details will never get out, right? And for both legal reasons and because I don't think it's necessary for people to know.

Speaker 6 I think everybody in that situation made what they thought was the next best decision, and it just it is what it is. Um,

Speaker 6 but I have caught a sign, I have gotten a significant amount of blowback from people about it.

Speaker 6 And I was sharing that with Aubi, and when he said he, he just said, you know, kind of off the cuff, and Aubi's a great dude.

Speaker 6 Um, uh, for those that don't know, he's the executive director of the big eye uh of North Carolina, and uh, he just said, dude, dogs don't part, don't bargain, park cars. And I was like, What

Speaker 6 Exactly. Right.
Like you, you're a guy who, when people meet, they know you, they see you. You have energy, you're thoughtful, you understand the industry, you have experience in the industry.

Speaker 6 And I think that the key is,

Speaker 6 for as much as you may or may not need to hear this,

Speaker 6 if you hadn't built a reputation and people didn't see you as someone withstanding, they wouldn't. say shit to you.
You know what I mean? It would go, the move would go unnoticed.

Speaker 6 But the fact that people are noticing it, both positive and negative, speaks to the impact that you've had, even, you know, at a relatively young age.

Speaker 8 So yeah, it's kind of a similar, it's a similar quote to the lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of a sheep kind of thing in a similar vein, in a similar vein.

Speaker 8 But it comes with the respect factor. So well said, well said.
Yeah. I can appreciate that.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So, so, so you said you had a story you wanted to tell it.

Speaker 6 Let's let's hear what parts, what you know, you can go into detail or not, or, or maybe maybe just lessons you've learned, things you've seen.

Speaker 6 I'm just interested in your perspective. And then I want to hear more about,

Speaker 6 you know, what you're doing, smart choice, et cetera. I want to get into that as well, but I'd love to spend a little bit of time just on.

Speaker 6 And the reason I'm so interested in this, and I don't want to over-index on it, it's not just because I've been through it, although I feel like I have a master's degree and having my life upside down.

Speaker 6 I think there are a lot of people

Speaker 6 who go through life and they're so nervous about a big change like this, right?

Speaker 6 Maybe they're sitting in a job that they don't like or isn't fulfilling them or they're not making enough money or whatever the issue is, right? Whatever their particular thing is.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I think a lot of people allow others' potential perspective or opinion on a move stop them from doing what's best for them and best for their family.

Speaker 6 And obviously you have made a fairly large transition to do what's best for you and for your family.

Speaker 6 And I'm interested in what takeaways you have from that so far, what lessons, what thought process, et cetera, you've picked up during this time.

Speaker 8 Really good setting of the stage because,

Speaker 8 you know, for those that don't know, it's very clear and obvious now, like single dad had a tough separation, divorce, but it allowed me to kind of look at things differently as far as how I'm going to handle my business, how I'm going to want to raise my kids, and honestly, how I want to treat people because of the empathy thing.

Speaker 8 So that's kind of the side, the back burner there.

Speaker 8 But what I'm going to get at too is like when we were at our agency and from 2012 to 2019 things were honestly pretty comfy i had i was single for half of that i got married on the second half of that career uh piece of the agency career but when i would come home to a support system that allowed me to do things really well at my agency it made life very easy like things couldn't have been easier when i was at my agency because we had our you know operations in place our staff in place i could come in do my job and come home and have a great life

Speaker 8 We sold our agency in 2019. We had an influx of cash that we reinvested into Glovebox.
When we did that, we actually had no paycheck for 18 months.

Speaker 8 We were paying our company instead of our company paying us. Very odd concept right there.
So that's a perspective in and of itself.

Speaker 8 It changes the way you go about your daily life, what your spending habits are, you know, how you.

Speaker 8 start a family. And that's what I was doing.
I was starting a family, starting a company at the exact same time.

Speaker 8 We can go into detail about what I saw a glove box, but really what I was going to get out here is that the trajectory of my career has had bumps and bruises because of my support system at home.

Speaker 8 Long story short, when you go through trials and tribulations in any phase of your career, you got to have some sort of a grounding. And my grounding was my family, my friends, my...

Speaker 8 colleagues, my business partners, my referral partners, et cetera. Conversation, insight, knowledge, advice, take it all.

Speaker 8 It's like reading books all day, every day, but you're doing it with real life scenarios with real people.

Speaker 8 And I was doing that throughout the entire time at the agency, the startup company, and now here at what I do now.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 to kind of come to conclusion on this topic here.

Speaker 8 it only makes sense when you can grasp what everyone is doing and you turn it into like reality for yourself meaning put it in perspective everything is perspective And now I can look at myself honestly, look at myself in the mirror and say, I'm doing well.

Speaker 8 Everything I'm going to do going forward is based on my experiences and how hard it's been, challenges. And it's honestly, it's going to be okay.
It's never as bad as as good as it seems.

Speaker 8 It's never as bad as it seems. And that's kind of where I've been getting at with all this.
A comfy lifestyle at the agency, stressful times at the startup company for capital,

Speaker 8 turning it into a successful company, moving on and doing what I'm doing now. So

Speaker 8 kind of a long version for that answer there.

Speaker 6 No, no, I love it, man. And I'll give the audience, and if you if you haven't read this book, I recommend this too.

Speaker 6 The gap in the gain by Benjamin Hardy. He wrote a book in partnership with Dan Sullivan.
It's a strategic coach original idea. So Dan Sullivan's strategic coach is where this idea came from.

Speaker 6 And then Ben Hardy worked with Dan Sullivan to turn it into a book.

Speaker 6 concept is very simple. The book is a good quick read.
There's some depth to it, but the top-level concept is very simple.

Speaker 6 We, and I explained it on the show a couple of weeks ago, but I will again because it's, I can't, there's sometimes these concepts hit you and I feel like they're, they're, they're first principle ideas.

Speaker 6 And I just can't help but continue to bring them up. Basically, we have where we started and we have our ideal, right? And I think,

Speaker 6 I think the misconception, when we logically think about this, I think what I'm about to say makes complete sense, but emotionally are, I think most of us emotionally assume that we're going to go start to ideal in this linear line over some period of time, and everything will just work out, and everything will be in that that's what happens, right?

Speaker 6 Like here, but

Speaker 6 everything's good, and I get to this point.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 that's not the way life works at all.

Speaker 6 We've all seen that meme of like what people think success is, and it's this straight line, and then what it really is, it's like this tangled mess, like spaghetti mess, right?

Speaker 6 So, the idea of the gap and the gain is that we have our start and our ideal,

Speaker 6 and then where we actually are.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 stress and anxiety are the result of measuring ourselves between where we are and our ideal.

Speaker 6 And what Dan Sullivan recommends and what he teaches all his entrepreneurs who come through the strategic coach program is we need to measure ourselves not by the gap where we are to the ideal, but from where we are from where we started.

Speaker 6 Because if we're constantly measuring, and this is the, this is written in the book over and over again, always measure backwards.

Speaker 6 If we think like, okay, who was I in 2012, that first day I walked into my family agency, like, who was I there?

Speaker 6 Probably a little disorganized, probably slightly more cavalier, brash, you know, unpolished.

Speaker 6 And then you kind of refine yourselves and you now you learn the agency business, like the back of your hand, you start this, you know, tech company.

Speaker 6 You start to go through all those experiences and you look at yourself today and you're like, oh shit, my job now

Speaker 6 as part of, and I want to hear what you're doing at Smart Jersey in detail, but you know, I now have this job with this, with this, you know, largest network in the country, and I now have this decade of wins, losses, beats, stories, experience, et cetera, to pull off of that make me this incredibly unique value provider to members of Smart Choice, where you could be like,

Speaker 6 oh, I didn't exit GloveBox for $20 million, right? Like maybe that was your ideal in a moment. And you could

Speaker 6 have all that anxiety on yourself, or you could say, holy shit, I have a decade of experiences that no one else has and now i get to be this tremendous value provider no anxiety and like totally that dude that to me is something i constantly have to remind myself of because i'm nowhere near my ideal but when i look back at my experiences i'm like

Speaker 6 i i have like a phd in this industry And, you know, people can believe that or not believe it, but like, you know, and I see the same thing from you. I see very similar moments in time.

Speaker 6 And it's just like that, I have to remind myself, but here's the key. And I'm interested in your take on this.

Speaker 6 I literally have to remind myself of these things every day, or I wake up and I'm riddled with anxiety, right? Like every day, I have to go, look, man, here's where you're at.

Speaker 6 Here's the value you provide. Like that, that, that, that, that.

Speaker 6 Go get it. Okay, great.
Reset. Let's go.
Feel great. Yeah.
The days where I forget to do that, or maybe, you know, whatever.

Speaker 6 I get to like two, three o'clock in the afternoon. I'm like, holy fuck, finding peak's never going to be anything.
No one's ever going to respect me. I've screwed my career up.

Speaker 6 My kids are going to hate me. You know, I'm never going to be able to make the payments on my new house.

Speaker 10 What's up, guys? Sorry to take you away from the episode, but as you know, we do not run ads on this show. And in exchange for that, I need your help.

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Speaker 10 We have a tremendous lineup of people coming in, men and women who've done incredible things sharing their stories around peak performance, leadership, growth, sales, the things that are going to help you grow as a person and grow your business.

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I'm out of here. Peace.
Let's get back to the episode.

Speaker 6 And then all of a sudden you're like vibrating and you can't wait to go get drunk that night to ease the pain. It's like,

Speaker 6 you know, and I just, it's like these little thoughts that just, I don't know, they're so important. So I don't know.

Speaker 8 Well, and I think the fairy tale ending is what you hope to achieve.

Speaker 8 But how many people get the fairytale ending? And honestly, I don't even know if that's ever reality to have that.

Speaker 8 I mean, we're, I always relate things to sports and we're in a, you know, And sorry for your bills.

Speaker 8 We're in a, we're in the Super Bowl conversation right now as far as like timeframe.

Speaker 8 And, you know, these teams made it to the ultimate goal of getting to the Super Bowl, and that's their fairytale ending of hopefully raising that trophy.

Speaker 8 For me, it was start in Sure Tech Company, sell it for a billion dollars, and, you know, ride off into the sunset. By the way, I still had an outstanding experience.
I left on amazing terms.

Speaker 8 I am going to have a positive.

Speaker 8 you know, ending to that story just along the same lines. It's just not going to be that fairy tale.
My fairy tale was realigned.

Speaker 8 That expectation went from here to here and it's okay because the new reality is still what you just described.

Speaker 8 Everything in between, the blood, sweat, tears, the monetary, you know, earnings at the end of the day, still in a good place.

Speaker 8 Like everything is actually going to work out just the way it needs to, with exception to the trajectory of like the scale, right? The scale just shrinked.

Speaker 8 And that's okay because now there's a new scale and there's a new opportunity. So I don't know, like I'm always realigning expectations.
And I think that's what you're getting to.

Speaker 8 The anxiety kind of puts you, it grounds you a little bit. And it's okay to have anxiety because I think it makes you aware of what's going on.
Yes.

Speaker 8 Because in the middle of the day, you get in your groove and you kind of jump back out of it with anxiety.

Speaker 8 But I think it's okay to constantly re-bounce off, you know, bounce ideas off people so you can recalibrate, recalibrate, like once a month, if not more. And so that's where I'm at.

Speaker 8 Like the fairy tale is just a new fairy tale. So yeah, I

Speaker 6 have,

Speaker 6 one i love the idea that anxiety keeps us aware i do think that's true i do think that again i think there's a threshold obviously where you don't you know you don't necessarily want to put yourself in places that go too high but i do think a small we want to keep a constant level of stress and it and you know we'll put anxiety in that turn in that in that category because otherwise we're not actually pushing ourselves like if you're showing up every day and everything is friggin easy and you have no stress you are not growing growing as a person.

Speaker 6 And this, this kind of plays into my next question for you, which is like, do you think we even like,

Speaker 6 I, like, there's no fairy tale ending for me. Like I, people are like, where are you trying to go? I don't fucking know.
Honestly, like, I don't know. I know

Speaker 6 I don't have like a 10-year plan where I have a second house in Florida and a boat and whatever. Like, I plan on working forever.
Like, I love

Speaker 6 doing, there's certain things that I love doing. And I guess my goal, my fairy tale is more like being able to work on the projects that I choose to work on as often as I can.

Speaker 6 But like, I guess my point is,

Speaker 6 is, is shooting for like a fairy tale or even having that as a goal, is that even a worthy pursuit? Like, is that even something that we really want?

Speaker 6 Like, does anyone, is anyone truly happy if they have nothing to do but put their feet up and drink? you know, colorful alcoholic drinks out of umbrellas.

Speaker 6 Like, is anybody really happy long term in that life? I don't know. I wouldn't be.

Speaker 8 So the only exception would be if I'm playing golf every day. That'd be fun.

Speaker 8 Like insurance agents typically do. No, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 8 No, I mean, yeah, you're onto something because then what you do is you kind of look around at your peers and you think to yourself, like, what are they going through?

Speaker 8 What are, what is their, what does their trajectory look like? And how am I going to relate to that?

Speaker 8 Why do we always have to compare ourselves to

Speaker 8 that notion there? So I'm okay with where things are.

Speaker 6 I think that's a perfect way to transition into your new role is just this idea that, and I see this, I see this in agencies all the time. It's in everybody.

Speaker 6 So I'm not singling out agency owners or whatever, or even producers, but like, I think too often we see chest thumping on LinkedIn.

Speaker 6 And I can tell all of you listening to this with 100% certainty that most of the people.

Speaker 6 constantly chest thumping on LinkedIn are doing some small portion of what they say or present online, just so we're all clear. Like, I know a lot of these people and I know the backstories.

Speaker 6 Like, it doesn't mean they're not good people and it doesn't mean they're not successful. Just be careful that we idolize

Speaker 6 people that are chest thumping and shit. And like, I'll give you an example of this.
I post on Instagram a lot videos of me like working out. Now, one, that is not for the audience.
That's for me.

Speaker 6 I go back and I look at them and I look at form and whatever.

Speaker 6 I put a little like, sometimes I put like some inspirational shit on top of it just to make it interesting, but like, but I suck at boxing and I know I suck at boxing.

Speaker 6 And I put the sucky boxing videos out so that to in part to show people that you don't, like, I don't compare myself to good boxers, but I still three times a week go and hit the bags for the workout.

Speaker 6 And I think that what we need to stop doing is saying, because I don't, I'm not as good at so-and-so at cold calling, I'm not, I'm going to, you know, be unhappy or I'm not gonna cold call because I'm not as good as him or her, or whatever.

Speaker 6 Like,

Speaker 6 we just have to, if we, again, going back to this gap in the game, if we just think about our own personal growth, everything seems to work out the way it should,

Speaker 8 dude. I think if

Speaker 8 you consider what it looks like for others to see your posts, your,

Speaker 8 you know, your story, and you listen to your, you know, what we're talking about here,

Speaker 8 I think it's okay to understand that everyone's going to have a different opinion of you. And as long as you're doing right by the industry, your peers,

Speaker 8 I think it's going to be a good reflection of who you really are and what you stand for. And that's okay to me.
Like, I don't want to be an influencer. I don't want to be this insurance celebrity.

Speaker 8 I want to just do right by my peers, work hard for insurance agencies, make good money and have a good life. Yeah.
And that's okay.

Speaker 8 So that's where I'm at.

Speaker 6 So let's talk about that. So, okay.
So

Speaker 6 I'm sure based on your experience your history who you know you had options on what your next move would be and you chose smart choice talk to me a little bit about that it's i'm at marshberry or marshmallow sorry marshberry first choice no it's first choice i guys i apologize marshberry first choice sorry i completely apologize completely apologize no it's fair so like yeah you're right like the free agency market when i hit the when i hit the market was kind of funny like 10 15 folks immediately like, we must talk to definitely get set aside some time.

Speaker 8 I knew in the first couple days, like who the top, who would rise to the top as far as who I'd want to talk to. You're talking everything from

Speaker 8 insurance carriers to other insure tech companies to, of course, networks,

Speaker 8 to everything outside the industry, mortgage companies, other insurance agencies, both publicly traded and smaller mom and pops.

Speaker 8 It was pretty interesting to take on every conversation to realize what is the next five to 10 years really going to look like and what do I actually want to do to make it most effective for myself?

Speaker 8 Because I have two core

Speaker 8 pieces of logic for my next phase of my career.

Speaker 8 Doing what I do best, which is marketing, lead generation, networking, professional networking, et cetera, and challenging myself to learn something new inside the industry.

Speaker 8 I've had experience as a, you know, inside the agency space, now at the startup space in the insurtech world, and now in the network space.

Speaker 8 And what I really wanted to accomplish because honestly networks were always fascinating to me we're talking like the business model um everything you can do for agencies um

Speaker 8 you know you're talking about um

Speaker 8 like honestly there's there and this is what i think of networks right now you have the one and there's a big gap so like just like good insurance agencies and bad insurance agencies uh the big gap is the value they bring to the to the to the client you can and i heard this term the other day i was cracking up um

Speaker 8 What was it? Dang it, no, I'm spacing it. It was a,

Speaker 8 oh, commission clubs. Networks are just commission clubs.
And I heard that and I was cracking up because I was like, okay,

Speaker 8 clearly the reputation for networks or groups is that all it's doing is giving you market access and enhanced commissions, right?

Speaker 8 And okay, that's probably the more antiquated old school approach and reputation for what networks and groups are. But the good ones are doing way more than that.

Speaker 8 And so I was looking for things like, how can I help agencies operate more effectively, give them legitimate guidance into tech stack and how they can operate with technology and the next version of what a modern, modern agent looks like.

Speaker 8 How can I help them advise? Like, I just want to be an advisor because that's honestly what I can bring to the table at this point. Great advice.
Consult.

Speaker 8 Lead by example. I've done it.
I can show you what I did. I can show you what other people are doing.
I talked to thousands of insurance agencies at Glovebox. I saw what they did wrong.

Speaker 8 I saw what they did right. Everything in between, a lot of gaps, a lot of overlaps.

Speaker 8 There's things that, and here's kind of the reality too, is a lot of these agencies really are just insurance agents that happen to own an agency. And that is okay.

Speaker 8 That's great. The problem is you can't be an expert in everything.
You're

Speaker 8 worried about sales and service and marketing and commission statements and carrier relationships and training and recruiting and all this stuff.

Speaker 8 There's no way in hell you're going to be an expert in all that. So it's okay to lean into your resources, which regard, which for me was the network space.
I've known First Choice for years.

Speaker 8 I've watched them grow. They are the number one premium aggregator in the country.
When MarshBury acquired First Choice in 2022, it was a huge opportunity to say, you have one of the best

Speaker 8 insurance agency consulting firms now owning and operating or help you know,

Speaker 8 provide distribution across the nation for the aggregation side of the house.

Speaker 8 And now I can team up with a great reputable name brand, represent them the way I want to represent them. It's all conducive to my

Speaker 8 first goal, which is helping independent agents succeed. Everything just fit the bill.
So it was funny going through all those recruiting conversations, hearing what possibly I could do.

Speaker 8 It was easy to eliminate. It was very simple.
And it only took two weeks. I knew what I was going to do.
Honestly, the first conversation I had with First Choice, it was a done deal

Speaker 8 as far as I was concerned.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's awesome. I mean,

Speaker 6 it's so exciting when you feel that connection and you can dive into it and really feel like

Speaker 6 you're being successful. Yeah.

Speaker 6 What is that?

Speaker 6 I don't know why. I don't know what it is.
I'm sorry for everyone listening.

Speaker 6 For some reason, when I do hand gestures, certain hand gestures, the video creates these little bubble things, which is weird. And I'm going to, I got to figure out how to turn it off.

Speaker 6 For the YouTube people, they saw it, and this is all just wasted time for them. I want to go back to your comment around the commission club thing.

Speaker 6 Have you heard that term?

Speaker 8 I was cracking up.

Speaker 6 I have not heard that term before, but I think

Speaker 6 I can hear agents saying it. Like, it sounds like something agents would say about networks.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 here's one of the things that I always, so I was part of, Rogue was part of two different networks. So we were originally part of Indium

Speaker 6 and then when we were purchased we had to leave Indium obviously and we were part of SIA

Speaker 6 and uh

Speaker 6 I you know

Speaker 6 I would always get people

Speaker 6 reaching out why did you decide to join Indium what's it like being part of SIA what's it like being part of a network you'd get a lot of those questions etc or people are in other networks trying to compare and and and I would get never I never commissioned club but I would get basically like oh you know they don't add any value they take more money money, whatever.

Speaker 6 And I'll be honest with you, in both scenarios, when I did the math,

Speaker 6 if it was just a commission club, it was still worth being there. So I've never completely understood why revenue's revenue.
Yes, yeah. So, like, I could understand.

Speaker 6 I mean, someone could say, oh, geez, they don't do anything but aggregate premium or whatever, or it's a commission club. Okay.

Speaker 6 Okay,

Speaker 6 but I make more money than I would if I wasn't part of it.

Speaker 6 So I'm not really sure, you know, if it, if they were solely that, which neither one were, you know, both had their own set of services, et cetera, just like Marshbury First Choice. And

Speaker 6 I just never understood why that is used as a negative. Like

Speaker 8 I think because

Speaker 8 I think it's because of the language in the contract.

Speaker 8 You must remain independent. You're an independent agent for a reason.

Speaker 8 Don't join a group if you don't think you're going to remain independent if that group has aspirations of acquiring you or getting equity stake in your agency or taking your commissions personal preference don't do it yeah

Speaker 8 i think that you lose independence you lose autonomy you're actually working with not even a silent partner at that point that is just a true partner groups networks that are

Speaker 8 benefiting an independent agent allow them to stay independent and they allow them to, we're just not, we're not, we're a silent partner. We don't touch your business.
We advise.

Speaker 8 We give you better opportunities with these carriers. We get you the access you deserve.
We're going to give you some outlets to lean into. So that's kind of where I'm going.

Speaker 6 Yeah. No, I, I, I'm, I am, uh, just to be clear, I am not saying that there isn't a hierarchy of

Speaker 6 value that different networks give you. For sure, there is.
I guess I just

Speaker 6 assuming I think most, most networks at face value, at a minimum, if you do the net net, you make more money being part of most networks.

Speaker 6 I definitely think there are networks where that is not the case. And I also think there are networks that add more value than don't.

Speaker 6 And I also, and I think to your point, which is very, very important and probably the most important part, before you join any network or any agency cluster, right?

Speaker 6 There's all these little like five and six agency clusters forming. And I have heard, you know, some people will be like, it's the best thing I ever did.
It's great.

Speaker 6 And I've heard other people have these horror stories. And it's because

Speaker 6 we, we don't look at the exit clauses, right?

Speaker 6 You brought this up, and I think this is the most important part of all these contracts is

Speaker 6 the

Speaker 6 what happens if everything goes wrong, right? It's awesome to talk about the good stuff.

Speaker 6 This commission level and this split and this bonus structure, and you get to fly to Hawaii, if you hit the president's club or whatever, amazing. All those things are amazing.

Speaker 6 What happens if things don't go right?

Speaker 6 What happens if the

Speaker 6 agency principal gets hit by a bus and his his or her spouse who doesn't want to run the agency now wants to fire sale how does that work how do they get out do they get screwed you know the the exit clause in these contracts is so important and and the people that i know that have the biggest beefs with any network it always comes back to you didn't really read the exit clause that's what they'll they got gripes and maybe those gripes are legitimate but You didn't read the exit clause and that's why you're pissed.

Speaker 8 And that's the sign of an agency owner that needs help. And that is, again, I keep saying this.
It's okay. That's okay.
You're not an expert in everything. Neither am I, neither is Ryan Hanley, right?

Speaker 8 It's okay.

Speaker 8 So I think leaning into networks is vital. Actually, did you know 70% of agencies, independent agencies, are a part of a group in 2024 and beyond?

Speaker 6 I didn't know it was that high, but I knew it was more than 50%. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Yeah, which is interesting. So any agency of any size, we're talking 250,000 in revenue.
We're talking 200 million in revenue. So I think that's interesting to assume as well, because every

Speaker 8 agency is using it for different reasons. And that's something that I keep an eye on as well.

Speaker 8 Thankfully, at first choice, we have a lot of reasons why we would get a big agency involved versus a small agency.

Speaker 8 We're talking about the Marsh Berry ecosystem at that point, but we don't need to dive into it.

Speaker 8 It's just kind of like, if we're leveraging all our value adds for every agency, it's not all one size, right? Yep. You need this, you need that.

Speaker 8 I'm going to advise you according to who you are and the makeup of who you are and your

Speaker 8 aspirations, your goals, and what you actually looking to accomplish. Is it perpetuation? Is it sale?

Speaker 8 Is it just simply to benchmark myself against another agency and understand what are my peaks and valleys, my gaps and overlaps? There's a lot to be said for every agency is treated uniquely.

Speaker 8 And that's not something I think every network does. So that's another big point to observe.

Speaker 6 Yeah, no, I think, I think it's a great point. And I love that you brought up that stat.
I did not know it was that high.

Speaker 6 What I think is really interesting is I wrote, I can't remember if it was an article or I created something. It was probably a podcast, but I think it might have been an article around the idea that

Speaker 6 having when I first joined Indium,

Speaker 6 which Cat Turns now runs and is doing a great job with, it's kind of a different organization,

Speaker 6 much, much more,

Speaker 6 much more,

Speaker 6 a much better run organization under CAT. CATC.
He's doing a tremendous job

Speaker 6 than it was when I joined it. But

Speaker 6 I just getting in and that version of it, which, you know, I wish that I was part of the cat, Cat Turns version, but I wasn't.

Speaker 6 Just getting in and getting my hands, the first time I'd ever been part of a network because my previous agency that I worked for wasn't in a network and they were very against them.

Speaker 6 There was like this idea that, you know,

Speaker 6 my ex-father-in-law was like, if you, if you have to join a network, then you're not a good good business owner You're failing or you can't sell or whatever and I'm like, you know, and I don't want to make him sound so douchey.

Speaker 6 It was just his opinion. He wasn't

Speaker 6 a lot. And then I joined Indium and I was like, wait a minute.
Like, so I get access to these four carriers that I need, but probably don't have the ability to feed enough. So that's an advantage.

Speaker 6 I get... contingencies on this carrier immediately day one that I wouldn't have gotten commissions on contingencies on for another year.

Speaker 6 I up only the contingency point, you know, whatever the deal was. I can't remember exactly what it was, but you know, and there was like some discounts on a couple of technologies or whatever.

Speaker 6 And I remember going, like,

Speaker 6 okay,

Speaker 6 I don't,

Speaker 6 is there going to be a day? Here's my question for you.

Speaker 6 I wrote an article at that time that said there may come a day in the not too distant future when you cannot do this alone anymore.

Speaker 6 You have to, part of starting an agency, part of, you know, like choosing your AMS or your CRM or your phone system, one of those primary decisions pre-launch is going to be which network or aggregation system am i going to join upon launch like do you believe that day is coming obviously there'll always be exceptions but could you see this number 70 going to 90 someday

Speaker 8 here's an interesting uh way to respond to that there is i think i think we're at the mercy of the carriers I do, because I think they're starting to frown upon small groups like the five person groups, the 10 person groups, and just saying to themselves, if you think about it from a company standpoint, like, if I'm progressive, why am I giving the benefit to these five agencies where they're really not bringing anything different to me as they were on an individual basis, right?

Speaker 8 There was nothing differently they're doing for me with these five specific agency groups.

Speaker 8 So the smaller groups could potentially fade just based on the mercy of the carriers, right?

Speaker 8 They're the ones who are going to dictate, are these groups worthy of the higher splits, of the profit sharing incentives, et cetera?

Speaker 8 So So to answer your question, I think it's a wait and see.

Speaker 8 I think the big ones are in the clear as far as their relationships with the companies, their ability to get the most out of them, and kind of this mutual benefit to both the agency and the carrier.

Speaker 8 But the small ones may have this plateau where they can no longer

Speaker 8 grow because they're at the mercy of the carrier. So I think we should watch that.
That's something to watch.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think,

Speaker 10 i mean

Speaker 6 it is not you know it's not breaking news that there is a lot of downward pressure on agencies particularly smaller agencies for production right and i've heard from you know a bunch of my my uh agent connections that you know and we were seeing this a little bit at rogue uh pre pre moving over to sa that that obviously changed everything because of their scale in terms of the pressure that we had but you know we had some pretty substantial pressure before we made that move from a few of our carriers on production right?

Speaker 6 And I was like, guys, I'm getting you in now because I need you to believe in what I'm trying to do five years from now, right?

Speaker 6 But because the market was changing, you know, there's obviously market dynamics at that time.

Speaker 6 We were starting to get the, yeah, but we still need X amount of production to like keep your appointment, whatever. And I've heard, right,

Speaker 6 you know,

Speaker 6 from a few of my friends who are either more closer to startups or just run smaller agencies that that downward pressure has continued and is starting to go

Speaker 6 up book. So like, you know, maybe before, if you had 250,000 a premium with a carrier, they were kind of pushing on you or 250,000 or below.

Speaker 6 Now it's like 500,000 or 750, they're starting to push on you a little more. And

Speaker 6 that market dynamic to me is, you know,

Speaker 6 how high that pressure goes, like what size book, you know, how high they go with that pressure, that downward pressure that the carriers are putting on them, I think is going to determine a lot of the network adoption.

Speaker 6 Because if you, you know, if carriers say, hey, if you're over five, if in general, again, we're broad stroking here, if you have over 500,000 premium with us, you're good, right?

Speaker 6 We're happy, just keep producing every year, we're fine. But if that starts to creep up and now it's like, geez, if you're not at 750, we're going to really have to start to evaluate this.

Speaker 6 Or if you're not at a million, we're going to start to evaluate this. That's going to push a lot of agents.

Speaker 6 into the network discussion because they're going to want to keep writing that carrier, but they're not going to want to deal with the downward pressure all the time.

Speaker 8 Dude, not only that, but there's some confusion right now.

Speaker 8 Obviously, with these unprecedented times, with the way this market is, you're hearing from carriers things like, hey, we no longer offer these products.

Speaker 8 And yeah, we don't really offer those bonuses anymore. So don't really worry about that.

Speaker 8 And by the way, you actually didn't grow with us last year. And oh, by the way, can you write more business with us? And so there's this confusion.
It's we've pulled opportunities from you.

Speaker 8 You have to become more niche.

Speaker 8 You're not going to get paid the same on that niche. And by the way, I need you to do a lot more business with us.
And so this, it's very conflicting.

Speaker 8 It's, you know, pulling the rug out from under you and making you skip back on your feet immediately and do better than you did previously.

Speaker 8 So I think there's a, it's a bit of a confusing time we're in.

Speaker 8 And so what that's going to do as well, kind of piggybacking off of what you said, it is going to possibly force agencies to join because then they really aren't going to have to have that pressure of production they're not going to have to worry about these conversations as much the confusion will probably dissipate because now that's the group's problem not the individual's problem kind of thing if you get what i'm saying so i think it's a strange time yeah oh no it's definitely a strange time i have two i have two uh two questions for you um

Speaker 6 I'm going to ask them both at the same time because I'm a bad podcast host.

Speaker 6 So just deal with that. And then you answer them in the order that you want to.

Speaker 6 So one, you said we have to become more niche.

Speaker 6 I'm very interested in that because considering the market dynamics, I actually think it will pay dividends and create sustainability in agencies if they become more of generalists, right?

Speaker 6 And my reason for saying that, just let me articulate and then we'll go one at a time because this is kind of a big question.

Speaker 6 So I push back back then that only from the standpoint of if I have, let's say, I have three carriers and I know what goes where, and they have appetites, and I've been growing with them and feeling good.

Speaker 6 Then, all of a sudden, the last two, three years happen, this hard market comes in, and now there's holes in all those appetites because those carriers, rightfully, and you know, and I'm trying not to bang on carriers as much because I know they're businesses, right?

Speaker 6 And we have to deal with the reality of who they are, the reality that they face.

Speaker 6 So, so they're looking at profitability and they're starting to pull out of markets and/or jacking up pricing, et cetera. And now

Speaker 6 you add like these three or four or five classes of business that you wrote really well, you know where they go or where they went. All of a sudden, you know, you don't know where to put them.
Okay.

Speaker 6 If instead

Speaker 6 you wrote 20 classes of business instead of five, again, just broad stroking the numbers here, guys. Don't don't hold me to five versus 20 or whatever.

Speaker 6 But like if you became more of a generalist and said, okay, we know how to write these five really well,

Speaker 6 but what we're going to do is add five more or 10 more classes that we write really well and really work on. Now, all of a sudden, your pool becomes bigger and you have more opportunities.

Speaker 6 And are you, you know, does that make sense? I'm saying, like, by broadening

Speaker 6 our appetite as agents, we are, we are giving ourselves the flexibility to move with the market. And, you know, maybe all of a sudden, yeah, we can't write those

Speaker 6 auto repair shops anymore that we've been killing it with the last couple of years because so-and-so carriers doesn't want them.

Speaker 6 But man, we could slide into bakeries for a while and crush because they'll still write bakeries and they want bakeries and whatever. And I think, so I guess that's just my thought.

Speaker 6 And what do you think about niching more versus going more generalist as a way to weather this storm?

Speaker 8 Well, it changes your business model because if I'm an insurance agency and I do one thing really well, and for us, that was always personal lines, professional networking. That was my mission.

Speaker 8 Carrier comes in or carriers, plural, come in and say, that's just no longer the way we're going to take on business.

Speaker 8 Obviously, personal lines is a mess um you got to change your business model all right well shoot scratch that idea i can't proceed with my current referral partners my professional network changes my day-to-day changes i think it sets an agency back a little bit as far as how they're going to recalibrate and reassess how they're going to accomplish what a carrier wants now although going back to the original question

Speaker 8 Being more of a generalist is better long-term for the health of your agency.

Speaker 8 in the near term i think it's a hindrance on your success rate which ultimately hinders your revenue which hinders your growth which hinders your ability to hire and do well with your tech and it i think we're in this very funky state of yeah of the industry it really it's putting a halt and saying reassess yourselves come back to us in a little bit and then you can realize what you're going to do for us as a company like an insurance carrier agency relationship

Speaker 6 Dude, that's, I love that perspective. I actually agree with you.
And I think that's a really good perspective.

Speaker 6 I would completely agree that if you, say, had three to five niche markets that were your primary specialty,

Speaker 6 if you followed my advice

Speaker 6 in the most straightforward manner, it definitely would set you back. I think that's a very fair assessment.
And I'm kind of thinking about this in real time. I love that you said that.

Speaker 6 If I were to game plan that, what I would say is, one, I think the earlier you can create a base,

Speaker 6 an inbound base

Speaker 6 that can, that can. So what I'm advocating in general with my consulting agency is that

Speaker 6 what creating an inbound flow and base of business does is give you the sustainability to ride these out because

Speaker 6 you've created a mechanism to place a wide range of accounts that come in on their own accord because they've chosen. So it's easy to close, high converting,

Speaker 6 but it does come, you have to cast a little wider net, all right? And that's what I teach people to do. Okay, that's great.
But I had an awesome conversation with Charles Speck, who

Speaker 6 is going to be a couple episodes before this one comes out. So people will have heard that, where we were talking about how

Speaker 6 the answer is probably. Now, today you're going to face some turmoil, but I think this really is the answer for agencies moving forward.

Speaker 6 It's we need to have this layer, this inbound layer that creates kind of a

Speaker 6 steadily increasing foundation of revenue generation, right? Inbound is never going to give you, I shouldn't say that.

Speaker 6 It is very rare that inbound is going to give you these huge monumental growth moments. What it does is just incrementally increase every month.

Speaker 6 And then all of a sudden, two, three years later, you pop your head up and you're like, holy crap, I'm doing nothing and bringing in X amount of premium every month. That's awesome.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And what Charles and I kind of got to,

Speaker 6 and this, and just, I'm, you said this, and it just like set this thought off in my head. I think you're so right, dude.
Is that, is it really,

Speaker 6 I think both are necessary, right? We, we go for our, we go, we pick our three to five niches. Our, our, he, he recommends one to three max, right?

Speaker 6 So say, say we have those and, uh, and those are our big wins. Those are our accounts we crush.
Those are the ones that, you know, put those big spikes in revenue on the board.

Speaker 6 But underneath that, having that base layer of inbound, if, you know, allows us to ride out these types of storms, which if you haven't built today, you're going to feel some pain, but like understanding that it doesn't feel like the market is going to become any less dynamic in the next five to 10 years, considering what's going on politically and economically, et cetera.

Speaker 6 That feels like the formula, right? Like have your nice base layer and then these targeted big wins that you go after with maybe an outbound program. Does that sound like what you're saying?

Speaker 8 Yeah. And I think that base layer you're talking about is probably only attainable if you are part of something bigger, because it might not be something something you can achieve on your own.

Speaker 8 And so that's why I'm advocating a network. It's because it's okay

Speaker 8 to lean into the network for the foundational stuff that you're talking about that can no longer be accomplished with the way the market is.

Speaker 8 And it's okay to be niche when you feel like you already have that access and relationship with the people and companies that you know you can get done.

Speaker 8 But then you're talking two different business models in one.

Speaker 8 But here's what I would advise.

Speaker 8 You, if you're an agency owner and you do have this issue,

Speaker 8 start to hire producers for the niches that you're trying to expect and grow in.

Speaker 8 So for example, if you're a commercial in shop, you have your specific producer, one or two individuals who specifically go after

Speaker 8 roofers and plumbers and contractors.

Speaker 8 And then you work on another individual who goes after the habitational stuff and maybe the cannabis stuff. And then you have individuals that represent your niches.

Speaker 8 And then you can grow those verticals in within your organization and you, they know their markets.

Speaker 8 And some are going to lean into the network access and some are going to lean into your individual access that you have as an agency. And that allows you to be versatile.

Speaker 8 Because now you're not relying on one vertical or one or two or three, kind of like you mentioned. You can lean into your

Speaker 8 specific silos of production, right? You're looking over here with these producers, these, and that's the right way to, in my opinion, grow your agency long term.

Speaker 8 Cause now you're not worried about these market influxes. It's just, okay, like some are going to drive more revenue today.
Some are going to drive more revenue tomorrow.

Speaker 8 And I'm just going with the punches.

Speaker 6 And what I hear you saying as well is being intentional about the thought process, right? So like you won't, you know, it might not from a sustainability standpoint, right?

Speaker 6 Which is a lot of like, I have this concept and I actually.

Speaker 6 shared it in a solo video that will have also been out most likely by the time this one comes out, but it's this idea that like how I used to pitch people who'd push me, who'd push back on me about the value of insurance.

Speaker 6 So so at Rogue, we wrote a lot of startups. Even when I was back at the Murray Group, we wrote a lot of startups,

Speaker 6 you know, or new businesses, et cetera. And a lot of times.

Speaker 6 What I think is amazing, people who've been in business for 10 years and all the, you know, you'll know this too. I mean, everyone who's been in Asia knows this.

Speaker 6 10 years in business, completely respect insurance for the most part, you know, listen to you, you know, take your advice. New in business, know everything they've ever needed to know about insurance.

Speaker 6 You're an asshole and you don't know anything, right?

Speaker 6 So they would call and I'd say, okay, man, here's my pitch on why insurance is important.

Speaker 6 Insurance provides the foundation in which you build growth. You can't grow without insurance.
And I could almost hear them on the phone, like taking that in.

Speaker 6 And depending on the response, you know, I'd be like, look, man, here's the deal. If you don't have, you can't hire more people unless you have workers' compensation insurance.

Speaker 6 You want to add a professional element to your business? You need E ⁇ O. You want to go raise money.
Now you have a board of directors. You need DNO.

Speaker 6 You need, you know, all these different coverages. You want to, you know, expand

Speaker 6 the size jobs that you work on. You need a commercial umbrella.
So, like,

Speaker 6 your growth, your top line revenue growth that turns you on, none of it is possible without this foundation.

Speaker 8 So, I've never heard anyone say it like that. That's outstanding.

Speaker 6 Yeah, everyone can steal that or just join my join finding peak today or even more tidbits like that. You know, bump, bump, dynamite drop.

Speaker 6 So,

Speaker 6 the but I think this also, that kind of foundation to growth analogy, this is, again, I, I love what you said about the niche markets. My only thing that I would add to that is

Speaker 6 I think you also need to have a, what I call closer, completely different position, completely different

Speaker 6 psychological profile who handles your inbound accounts as well, right? So it's, it's like creating a generalist inbound niche.

Speaker 6 Like my, my niche, if you were to hire me to come work at your agency, would not be to cold call people. I would not be amazing at that.
I don't want to do it and I wouldn't be great.

Speaker 6 However, you put me as a closer, right? You, you know, you, you just have my phone ring and have me close, dude. I'll close 90% of the accounts that come in.
And that, because that's what I'm good at.

Speaker 6 There are other people who couldn't do that, but dominate as outbound producers.

Speaker 6 So I think we almost have to think about this inbound position like another niche that we that we work on that just gets us this consistent flow of business that's coming in and then we have these other guys and gals uh people humans um

Speaker 6 uh who are doing that hey they're going after those ten thousand dollar revenue accounts five thousand twenty thousand revenue accounts so now everybody

Speaker 6 pop yeah yeah yeah and then that way no matter what happens you you're protected yeah you're always kind of you're you're kind of like ah you know just like the ebbs and flows don't impact you as much much.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah.

Speaker 8 And I think, I guess, I completely don't think you can accomplish that without your, your network, because

Speaker 6 I agree with you.

Speaker 8 You're fighting your carriers all day.

Speaker 6 And I, and I think that's the point that I want to, I want to reiterate that point. That was a really good point that I hope people didn't lose.
In order for inbound to work, right?

Speaker 6 That inbound position to work, you have to have.

Speaker 6 You have to have a decent carrier set.

Speaker 6 You know, two or three carriers in inbound is not going to help you. Like the thing with Rogue, and again, I, I, you know, some of this, I'm not advocating for you to have as many markets as we have.

Speaker 6 We had the day that we closed, we had 61 markets.

Speaker 8 Can't be an expert up.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So, so that was too many markets, way too many markets.
And no, and I get everyone's, oh, yeah, I get it, traditionalists. You don't have to hit me.
I know that was too many.

Speaker 6 However, what it did allow us to do is I could place we had 271 industry classes that we placed at Rogue Rit. 201, no, that's right, 221.
Sorry, 221 industry classes that we placed.

Speaker 6 So I think 62 is insane. That's not what I'm advocating for.

Speaker 6 But I do think finding a network that matches your value structure is important if you don't have a broad portfolio of carriers directly, because

Speaker 6 what that allows you to do is place the business exactly where it's supposed to go versus trying to wedge it in somewhere.

Speaker 6 Again, speaking specifically to inbound, and because you are going to have kind of a broad set, you'll have a bakery, then a contractor, then a then a marketing consultant then you know you know whatever a delivery person and

Speaker 6 having a broad set of carriers which i believe is probably only possible through some sort of network relationship today is the only way to get that done

Speaker 8 um that is a perfect opportunity for me to transition over to something real quick yeah because i think it's just as important you can't plan for your business without some sort of financial guarantees and with the way we are right now with the lack of personal lines, you know, new business and our commercial lines in and out of niche opportunity,

Speaker 8 you are banking on your current revenue, but that can fluctuate so strongly with regards to your production and your retention.

Speaker 8 If you are a part of a network, you have a little bit more

Speaker 8 guarantee that you're going to know your financial outlook every year because there are some profit sharing guarantees. There are some contingency bonuses that are part of the fold.

Speaker 8 There are some commission enhancements that are specific to each company you write with.

Speaker 8 And that allows you to plan ahead for things like, you know, building up those silos we talked about, hiring and training and getting software in place to do all these things.

Speaker 8 So I think it adds another element of the financial aspect. You got to plan out your year or a couple of years in advance.

Speaker 8 And if you can't financially back that plan, then you're not going to, it's not going to work anyway.

Speaker 8 So a network also financially would benefit you because you have some guarantees behind the way you're planning your business.

Speaker 8 And so, yeah, you're talking about what we were talking about a few minutes ago.

Speaker 8 And then the other consideration is financially, you have to have some guarantees and know what that outlook is going to look like.

Speaker 6 Let me, I want to ask you, I know we're kind of getting up against a number, but I have one more question that I want to ask you specific about this before we wrap. Um,

Speaker 6 the way I've seen

Speaker 6 a lot of network memberships pitched, right? When they're pitching to the agency. And

Speaker 6 I am not just talking about Indium or SIA. I've heard this, been part of different conversations, et cetera, with a bunch of different stuff.

Speaker 6 If I'm being honest, never first choice Marshbury, so I have no intrinsic knowledge there, but I've heard this pitch from a bunch of different networks, okay?

Speaker 6 And it usually boils down to owner income, right?

Speaker 6 It comes down to, hey, overtime, discounts, relationship, whatever your value things are, that we you can make more money agency owner by being part of this network okay that's usually where the pitch comes back to however they get there okay

Speaker 6 my question for you is

Speaker 6 do you think in the times we're in today

Speaker 6 that pitch should change from owner income improvements to growth. Like to me today,

Speaker 6 you know, if you're the owner and you have a lifestyle, et cetera, I'm not saying you should get rid of your income or whatever. I'm not trying to knock that.

Speaker 6 I guess my point is like, if I were pitching a network today, and I'm just interested in your take because I could be completely off here.

Speaker 6 If it were me and I was pitching a network, I would focus on growth. I would be like, look, the only way to get through these times is not to maximize your personal income.
It's to grow your agency.

Speaker 6 And the best way to do that is to be here. And I've always found it interesting.
I think the pitch 10, 20 years ago was when the markets were really stable and they were soft, right?

Speaker 6 It was owner income, owner income, owner. You're going to grow regardless.
Prices are always coming down. Owner income.
Today, I feel like

Speaker 6 that needs to be changed to growth, growth, growth. Is that wrong? Do you disagree? What are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 8 No, it makes me think of a really good point that my brother Ryan actually mentioned to me just literally this morning. And I'm just going to read it because it's sitting right here in front of me.

Speaker 8 And it says, basically,

Speaker 8 let me start at the top for a second. So

Speaker 8 building a business fast is way easier than building it slow. And what Ryan meant by that is it's kind of twofold.
Growing agencies have a tendency to take profits out of the company far too early.

Speaker 8 That could be specific to the agency owner's compensation

Speaker 8 and put it in their own pockets at the sacrifice of the agency's growth. When you're in pure growth mode, reinvest most of the profits back in to fuel the growth in that way.

Speaker 8 So pour the gas in the fire now in favor of larger returns later.

Speaker 8 The business is going to go through waves of growth where you figure out strategies that just seem to align with the market at the right time.

Speaker 8 It's important to triple down on what's working and put the blinders on as you don't know how long that specific wave is going to last.

Speaker 8 And when Ryan said that, I was like, yep, that's completely what agency owners should be focusing on right now. You are not in a market to make money for yourself today.

Speaker 8 You are in a market that's allowing you to take opportunities,

Speaker 8 do whatever you can to grow now because your benefit is triple down the road. Yes, dude,

Speaker 6 I literally, I love that.

Speaker 6 That is,

Speaker 6 guys, go back, hit the back button, you know, 30 seconds or whatever and go back and listen to that again. I couldn't agree more.
You know, I had someone, I had a former employee at Rogue

Speaker 6 kind of troll me on the internet and make a comment about how Rogue wasn't profitable.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 my, you know, I don't engage in trolls because people don't know who the idiots are, but like, you know, in my head, I was like, that is such a stupid statement because we were a three-year-old agency.

Speaker 6 Our growth rate was probably, if we were to put our growth rate against, and again, I can't talk about specific numbers, but if I were to put our growth rate against any other agency in the country, we would freaking blow everyone out of the water.

Speaker 6 It wasn't, it wouldn't even be close. The things we were doing were effing insane.
And

Speaker 6 yes, we weren't profitable because

Speaker 6 we were a three-year-old agency.

Speaker 6 We wanted, I wanted to, I wanted to grab as much market share as I possibly could as fast as I could and gain because you can always cut expenses out of a business, but you can't, but it's really hard to put revenue on the top, right?

Speaker 6 So, like, I could not agree with that more. This hard market, if you are complaining about,

Speaker 6 not being able to grow in this hard market, I know there are extenuating circumstances and I'm not saying it's easy, but this is an opportunity to you said small gains today will spring forward in the future and all of a sudden you'll look up and you'll be light years from where you are.

Speaker 6 I couldn't agree with that sentiment more.

Speaker 8 Now is not the time to take profits, guys. Now is not the time.
Reinvest hard, harder. Double, triple down.
So I'd like to be able to do that.

Speaker 6 It's time to become a wartime general, bro. It's time to become a wartime general.

Speaker 6 if you are not a wartime general find someone in your agency or find someone you can bring in who is or find a coach or a mentor or a consultant who can come in and be a wartime general for you because that that is what you need right now and the people who do what you just said man they're they're gonna they're gonna be the ones we have on pedestals three five ten years from now so yeah i love it yeah i love it that's it's i'm glad we we covered that that's really important right yeah all right so dude i appreciate the hell out of you i love this um where can people connect with with you personally?

Speaker 6 And if they just want to learn more about what you're doing or Marshbury Smart First Choice, where do they go?

Speaker 8 Always on LinkedIn. So Andy Matheson on LinkedIn is the best.
Find me, get in touch with me, chat with me, DM, and we can set something up specific.

Speaker 8 I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised at what networks are doing right now. It is not what you thought five, 10 years ago.
So just consider that.

Speaker 8 Don't just think your agency doesn't

Speaker 8 fit the mold just because of what you think it is. Get some education, understand what it really means, and then you can make an educated decision.

Speaker 6 Dude, appreciate the hell out of you. I'm so happy for you.

Speaker 6 Thanks.

Speaker 6 I'm proud of that journey. Not that you need to hear that, but just as, you know, as someone who cares about your success, I'm proud that you're in a place that you feel better.
I can see it in you.

Speaker 6 Like, you just, dude, you seem.

Speaker 6 You know, last couple of times I saw you, you could just see the stress on you a little bit. I love it.

Speaker 8 I heard that from a few. Yeah.
No, I feel it too. I feel that sense of

Speaker 8 relief.

Speaker 6 And just and very appreciative that you would come on and share your story, share your emotions,

Speaker 6 good to hear that stuff. So, awesome, bud.
I'll let's get out of here.

Speaker 8 Awesome, good to talk to you, man. Talk to you soon.

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