RHS 156 - Tanya Andolsen on How to Sell Environmental Insurance

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Speaker 5 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. Today, we have an absolutely tremendous episode for you.

Speaker 5 It is a conversation with Tanya Andelson, president of Argosy Risk Specialists, an environmental insurance specialist, MGA.

Speaker 5 And Tanya had originally reached out to me and said, Hey, environmental is a product that many of you just don't understand. It'd be really cool to have a conversation.
And I agreed with her.

Speaker 5 And we had an awesome, nerdy conversation on environmental insurance, not just about what it is, but how to sell it and where MGAs like Argosy fit in into the equation and how you get access to environmental insurance and why environmental insurance in general should be a value or a cross-sell opportunity, much like EPLI and cyber.

Speaker 5 These are important coverages that are now often included in standard package or BOP formats.

Speaker 5 Selling them not only helps better protect your customers, but also puts some extra cash in your pocket, adding revenue revenue to your agency or to your book.

Speaker 5 And I think for all you insurance nerds out there, you're going to absolutely love this conversation.

Speaker 5 Before we get to Tanya, I want to give a big shout out to today's sponsor, Podium, P-O-D-I-U-M, P-O-D-I-U-M. Podium is one of the best tools on the market for texting and for web chat.

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Speaker 5 Love you for listening to this show. Here comes Tanya.

Speaker 8 So, uh, I appreciate you reaching out, and I'm excited to chat.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I know. I had the opportunity to see you and Bradley Flowers through your podcast at the IBNO event in Cleveland.

Speaker 10 Oh, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 9 yeah, at RockCon.

Speaker 9 So, um, I'm born and raised in Cleveland. I still live here.
And

Speaker 9 I just thought, you know, I've seen a lot of of your podcasts, a lot of your social media content. It's great.
It's exciting. It's a lot of energy.
And I just thought, you know what?

Speaker 9 It might make sense for us to talk a little bit about environmental insurance because I guarantee it's not one of the things that everyone thinks about or that, you know, that everyone knows how to even talk about it.

Speaker 9 And that's my biggest thing.

Speaker 8 I love it. So

Speaker 8 let's get right into it.

Speaker 8 Environmental insurance is definitely one of those topics that I feel like, unless you go all in on, you kind of stiff arm.

Speaker 8 You know, you're like, you're either like, I'm into this and I write it and it's something I know about and I'm willing, or you're like, nope, no interest, keep it away from me.

Speaker 8 Not interested. So, so, where do you, I guess, maybe let's let's start with you a little bit.
Maybe what's your background? How did you get into writing this coverage?

Speaker 8 Maybe just talk a little bit about your career in general, like catch us up and give us the

Speaker 8 tour.

Speaker 9 Okay.

Speaker 9 So, when i entered the insurance industry 27 years ago um i had the opportunity to to join with aig right so aig was back back in the heyday of when aig

Speaker 9 um you know did full-blown training they still do too now but i was very fortunate i spent uh eight years with aig started as a professional associate underwriter manager in their environmental division right so my degrees in logistics communication from a university john carroll university in cleveland i did did not have an environmental background so all of my training on environmental stuff it was really on the job through aig

Speaker 9 they made the move from the carrier side to palmer and k which was a back in 2003 a startup agency um small agency in cleveland spent 13 years on the retail broker side palmer and k wachovia wells fargo same desk couple different names and then in um 2015

Speaker 9 came over to our mada Risk Partners, which is again retail broker, mostly commercial.

Speaker 9 So my experience on the retail brokerage side has always been environmental, always been commercial, environmental.

Speaker 9 And then in 2018, I had the opportunity with some investors to start Argosy, which is where I work now. And Argosy is a niche wholesale broker that just does environmental, right?

Speaker 9 So I work with retail agents all across the country, those that don't have an environmental expertise, that don't have someone on their team that knows environmental.

Speaker 9 And, you know, all size agencies, from very small agencies to very large agencies that just choose to use Argosy as a member of their team, right? So it's like an adjunct team member.

Speaker 9 And when, so they go to a client, a prospect, they say, hey, look, we have environmental expertise. You know, if you have any issues, we can help.

Speaker 9 So that's my background. It's been all environmental.
And

Speaker 9 one of the biggest things, Ryan, that I see when it comes to environmental and having been on the carrier side, retail broker, now wholesale broker, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 9 If you're not all in, if you don't know environmental, you're sticking your head in the sand, right? You're not even going to address it.

Speaker 9 And what I saw in my years on the retail side is the ability for an agency or a broker to walk into an account, to bring up environmental and to get their foot in the door, right?

Speaker 9 Has your agent mentioned environmental to you? Do you realize that your property and casualty program is not covering you for this type of loss? And what it does is it creates, you know, some

Speaker 9 fear, some uncertainty, some disbelief. And wait a second, you mean my agent hasn't brought this up? And it gets your foot in the door.
And I saw a lot of accounts

Speaker 9 be written by the agency that I was at, the broker that I was at, because we started with environmental.

Speaker 9 So, even from an EO perspective, that's another thing. It's just, it is an education gap.

Speaker 9 And that's what I having, while I've been on the wholesale side, that's my been my biggest focus is education is making sure that everyone is comfortable bringing up the topic, if not to protect your clients, your prospects, but to protect your E ⁇ O.

Speaker 9 There's a gap in your insurance program, whether you realize it or not.

Speaker 9 And so that's, I kind of, I like to take a marketing approach where it's, you know, asking questions. You know, do you know

Speaker 9 this could be considered a pollutant? Do you know that this isn't covered in your insurance program?

Speaker 9 Things like that. So that's my background.
And I could go on and on, but

Speaker 9 I think it's just, it's important

Speaker 9 to

Speaker 9 be comfortable bringing the topic up.

Speaker 8 Yeah. And I think that

Speaker 8 every ambitious producer is always looking for that edge, that foot in the door, the pattern interrupt,

Speaker 8 workers comp, you know, after, you know, with,

Speaker 8 you know, guys like David Carruthers and others kind of championing comp as a way to get your foot in the door.

Speaker 8 I know that's not necessarily new, new, but it certainly has been rejuvenated, I'd say, in the last three to five years with a lot of people talking about comp as a wedge and a pattern interrupt.

Speaker 8 You know, different people use different coverages. And to me, although, you know, I'm definitely a noob to environmental.
I'm one of those ones that up until this point has stiff armed.

Speaker 8 But as a marketer, I'm always looking for that, for that,

Speaker 8 for that wedge.

Speaker 8 You know, environmental has just been one of those things for me that seems interesting, but having no background or interest also seemed or not interest, having no background or experience seemed very intimidating.

Speaker 8 You know, it seemed like one of those things that like, if I start to talk about this, if I bring it up, really, the only thing I can do is probably mess it up and put myself or my client in a worse situation.

Speaker 8 So taking me kind of as a case study or is probably similar to most most of the people that are listening, right? Maybe they've written a policy or two, maybe.

Speaker 8 But, you know, what are there certain, are there certain industries that tend to have a higher environmental exposure?

Speaker 8 Are there certain classes of business or does it align well with certain coverages?

Speaker 8 Like, like for someone who's new, not someone who knows this cold and it's what they lead with and they own it, but for someone new who maybe is trying to think about maybe adding environmental into their product mix more and offering it to their clients, where would be a good place to get started?

Speaker 9 Okay.

Speaker 9 Let me take a step back.

Speaker 9 So, when I first started the industry 26 years ago, the companies that bought environmental insurance, they were chemical manufacturers, hazardous waste haulers, landfills, you know, the obvious ones, right?

Speaker 9 The ones that you're like, okay, clearly you need environmental coverage in order to operate. And

Speaker 9 today, you know, umpteen years later, I'm going to say that's maybe 25% of what I see. I actually see

Speaker 9 any type of a manufacturer, any type of a contractor. I do a lot with real estate transactions, you know, people buying and selling properties

Speaker 9 or, you know, divesting of locations and the buyer is worried. Okay, well, what if I take on this location and there's something there I don't know about?

Speaker 9 You know, you can only test a property so much.

Speaker 9 You know, without making Swiss cheese out of a piece of property, you really don't know what's there. I mean, Cleveland, okay, so I'm in the Midwest, right?

Speaker 9 So much of our businesses and our land is historical industrial use, right? So you go to develop a piece of property, you stick a shovel in the soil, you really don't know what's there.

Speaker 9 So Now I see a lot of coverage being requested by lenders, right?

Speaker 9 Lenders don't want to offer any money for a development or an acquisition of a property until they're comfortable that they protect the collateral value of the loan in case of an environmental issue.

Speaker 9 Or contractors, right? So when I say contractors, everyone thinks, well, I'm not a remediation contractor, right? No, it can be any kind of contractor, right?

Speaker 9 You have a HVAC contractor, you have a roofing contractor, you have a street and road contractor.

Speaker 9 Any contractor that steps foot on a job site runs the risk of causing or exacerbating a pollution condition.

Speaker 9 Or how about something as simple as, you know, like I said, the HVAC and the roofing, right? We mold Legionella.

Speaker 9 A lot of times they trace it back to or they allege that the issue is the result of the contractor, the result of the guy that put the roof on, the person that put the windows in, the person that designed the HVAC system.

Speaker 9 So, you know, it's not a direct answer to your question, Ryan, but what it, what it is, is it,

Speaker 9 I like to

Speaker 9 make sure that when I'm talking to producers and account managers, that it's included as a coverage that's brought up with every risk that they,

Speaker 9 you know, are presenting to as part of the the property casualty program you've got if you have a total or an absolute pollution exclusion on your general liability policy which i'm going to say 99 of them today in our environment do uh you you've got a gap in coverage um and here here's here's a

Speaker 9 the biggest thing i like to bring up in the number of years that i've presented and I hear someone say to me, well, you know what, I don't need environmental insurance.

Speaker 9 I don't deal with any chemicals. I don't deal with any hazardous substances.
you know nothing i do

Speaker 9 the truth is it does not have to be a chemical or be hazardous to be considered a pollutant if you look at the yeah if you look at the definition of pollutant or pollution or contamination it doesn't say hazardous chemicals it basically is saying that something

Speaker 9 is not where it's supposed to be and as a result of it being where it's not supposed to be has harmed the usefulness of a resource or harmed a person or caused property damage so look at it from um you know, from a general liability, from a third-party liability policy perspective.

Speaker 9 Who are you harming?

Speaker 9 Who thinks that they're being harmed by your operations? You know, maybe the neighbor that's downwind, down gradient, downstream from you that thinks there's a smell coming from your facility.

Speaker 9 There's something that's coming from your facility that's getting into the soil and the groundwater and it's now affected my property.

Speaker 9 You know, or how about a lot lot of the neighborhoods where there is industrial close to residential, the people that are, the kids that are playing in the neighborhood and there's smokestacks that are

Speaker 9 half a mile away from them. So

Speaker 9 I like to recommend that it be brought up and be a part of the property and casualty renewal with every risk.

Speaker 9 with as much, you know,

Speaker 9 as much as needed, depending on the risk, right? But at a minimum minimum to at least say this isn't covered in your casualty program it doesn't have to be hazardous

Speaker 9 if you're affecting someone or someone feels your operations are affecting them we want to make sure we need to make sure you've got the coverage in place

Speaker 8 yeah i remember um in my cic class from a long time ago uh and i'm gonna butcher most of the details so this is

Speaker 8 you know this is i just remember we're in the cic and they're talking about different coverages and this this came up in the and the instructor gave this example.

Speaker 8 And again, this is probably as much as we even touched on environmental in the whole two and a half days or whatever, but just gave this example of

Speaker 8 a big tanker truck with milk in it. And he was, and it was the, the truck tipped over and all the milk came out, some thousands of gallons of milk spilled into this.

Speaker 8 uh drainage system that then ran into the water system and then you had all this milk in the water system and you couldn't couldn't drink the water because now it's rotting.

Speaker 8 And, you know, there's all this stuff that I, you know, whatever. And I don't want to butcher the details.

Speaker 8 What he was bringing up specifically was the concept of

Speaker 8 no one in their right mind would think milk is a pollutant. No, no one would think that, right? In your mind, you're like, milk, you know, whatever.
I spilled milk. No big deal.

Speaker 8 But he's like, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 8 In this case, the milk truck dumped into a drainage system that ran into a water system that then caused the town or whatever to to have to have issues with their water and it was and it came back all the expense from that and cleaning the milk out or you know whatever to do to the water to to to make it drinkable again all that came back to the company that was the tanker truck and i think the milk company and he's like this is one of the biggest things about environmental was that something like milk which no one would in their mind kind of rationalize as a pollutant could have this enormous loss and be excluded on your general liability and be considered a pollutant and ultimately have to be picked up by an environmental policy.

Speaker 8 And for some reason, that example of a milk truck spilling has always sat in my mind because, you know, you just wouldn't think of milk as a pollutant.

Speaker 9 Yeah,

Speaker 9 that's definitely one of the ones that sticks in my mind too. I remember early in my career hearing that.

Speaker 9 And, you know, and over the years, there have been similar claims with things like cranberry juice, with sugar that's gotten in the water that's caused turned, basically turned it into molasses,

Speaker 9 Whiskey, whiskey distilleries down in Kentucky, I mean, they were definitely happy fish, but there was a fish kill, right? And you have natural resource damage.

Speaker 9 So again, all of those things that, you know, aren't what you, you don't think that you think of them as fairly innocuous substances. Yeah.

Speaker 9 But then even when I, you know, going on to the contractor, you know, like I mentioned before, you know, your plumbing contractors, your street and road contractors, that, you know,

Speaker 9 Over the year, I was heard of a claim where a street and road contractor was pulled into a mold claim because it was alleged that they inadvertently graded the road, causing water improperly causing water to flow towards a building,

Speaker 9 causing water intrusion, which resulted in mold, right? So now you've got a street and road contractor that's having to defend themselves from a mold claim.

Speaker 9 So that's not, you know, you think of, okay, they put coatings on the road, you know, asphalt coatings, things like that.

Speaker 9 So those, you know, that kind of is, all right, you can, you can kind of see an environmental twist with that.

Speaker 9 But the mold claim, I'm sure that's not something they were prepared for, thought of when they were, you know,

Speaker 9 from a financial wherewithal or from their insurance program perspective.

Speaker 8 But so you mentioned, and I apologize for interrupt, but

Speaker 8 you had mentioned something before, and I want to make sure I capture this. So you had mentioned HVAC contractors.

Speaker 8 So what you're saying is that I'm an HVAC contractor and I install a system in-house or place a system, install it, and

Speaker 8 I'm not an HVAC contractor, but

Speaker 8 they set something up improperly improperly and it creates a mold scenario. I am assuming 99.9% of HVAC contractors believe that

Speaker 8 that would be improper work,

Speaker 8 completed operations and apply on their general liability policy. And

Speaker 8 what you're saying is that mold is going to be excluded most likely as a as a pollutant or potentially, and that would be picked up under the environmental policy, which almost makes it like a,

Speaker 8 I mean, it makes it almost like a mandatory policy that most of us aren't even selling. Is that kind of core? Am I breaking that down properly?

Speaker 9 Yeah, if it, if it, if the claim comes in and it's a toxic tort type of claim where someone alleges that they've, that they're sick or there's been some type of a, you know, property damage because of a pollutant, if there's a pollution exclusion on your GL,

Speaker 9 and again, you know what, Ryan,

Speaker 9 every state, every court has different ways they interpret.

Speaker 9 But in my experience, if there is a total pollution exclusion on it and it looks, smells, acts like a pollutant, the claim is going to be denied.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 9 And so that's, you know, so yes, contractors pollution liability.

Speaker 9 You know, in the environmental coverage has been around since I'm going to say the mid 80s, right? So 1970 was when like the EPA was formed.

Speaker 9 So people started thinking, okay, we really got to start looking at what's going on in the environment. There's some environmental laws that passed.
AIG,

Speaker 9 1986 is when the pollution legal liability coverage was

Speaker 9 created as a monoline type of coverage to fill these gaps. So now you're looking at, you know, so many years later, what's happened in the industry is you have

Speaker 9 anywhere between, and it depending on how you look at the carriers, anywhere between 30 and 40 carriers, right, that write a tem type of environmental coverage.

Speaker 9 Contractors pollution liability is probably the most common and written by the most of those carriers. And the reason is because it's fairly inexpensive.

Speaker 9 In many cases, now it's becoming a contract requirement.

Speaker 9 So, some are some larger stores, some larger chains, they don't want anyone stepping foot on their property without contractors pollution liability coverage, right?

Speaker 9 Even if you're the landscaping contractor, they just want to make sure you come on, you can bring fertilizers, chemicals, your coverage applies.

Speaker 9 And the only way for it to apply is if you've got contractors' pollution liability coverage.

Speaker 9 So, you have a very

Speaker 9 mature group of underwriters and carriers now in those 30 to 40 markets. And

Speaker 9 there are a lot of different types of coverages that are available.

Speaker 9 And it's becoming more, more mainstream, right? So we see C-Cyber and the different, how these coverages evolve as claims happen. Well, environmental coverage has evolved over the last 20 years.

Speaker 9 And now I'm seeing most of the markets offering coverage out of reasonable and reasonable, experienced underwriters that know what they're looking at.

Speaker 9 Right now, if you have a cleanup or you have a spill or you have something, a known condition, obviously, underwriters are intelligent and they look at that closely.

Speaker 9 But, you know, when you're doing a transaction or you're involved in an acquisition or divestiture and you want to make sure that there's coverage, and insurance, environmental insurance policies definitely can help facilitate a transaction or help satisfy contract requirements for a contractor.

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Speaker 8 Well, you can also see it as just, you know, and again, as much as this has been talked about in every

Speaker 8 EO class ever in history, that you should be using like a declination form and offering coverages and capturing declines on a lot of these ancillary standalone policies like EPLI and cyber and you know, whatever.

Speaker 8 Environmental is one that it feels like should be right on that list.

Speaker 8 I mean, that contractor, you place that HVAC policy and they get a pollution claim and you haven't even mentioned environmental or contractor's pollution liability to them.

Speaker 8 And any lawyer worth their salt is going to turn around and go, wait a minute, my client would have purchased contractors' pollution liability if you had ever offered it, but you didn't.

Speaker 8 They didn't know. That's your fault.
And

Speaker 8 that scenario particularly should scare the crap out of all of us, anyone who's working in these classes of business, you know, particularly say manufacturing, contracting, trucking, hauling, anything like that.

Speaker 8 Anyone, I mean, anyone that has even has obvious, you know, any kind of obvious exposure. And then, you know, you'd even think, you know, my mind goes to bakeries, restaurants.

Speaker 8 I mean, what are you doing with grease? What are you doing with waste? You know, anyone who's doing any kind of cooking, you know, even if it's just food related,

Speaker 8 all of those have waste products and byproducts that come out the back end of the building. And if you're not disposing of them properly, if you're not handling them properly, I mean, those are all

Speaker 8 potential claims.

Speaker 9 Yeah, you know, a couple of things to think about when you think about disposal, right?

Speaker 9 A lot of companies and restaurants think, well, yeah, you know, we've got abc trucking that comes up and picks up our waste and takes it and they they deal with it right but what the one thing that's overlooked a lot is how does your contract read with those people or those companies that are disposing of your waste right it's your waste what if they take it someplace and they take it to the wrong place and there's an issue at that place or what if it's spilled in transit You know, if they don't have the coverage for, you know, the in-transit pollution coverage, they're going to come back to you as the generator of the waste.

Speaker 9 i mean rick uh rickra liability and you know environmental liability as the transporter the generator you know the producer it's gonna everyone's gonna become uh you know liable jointly liable until you can kind of hammer hammer in okay well who's whose fault is it who you know

Speaker 9 who's got the financial wherewithal to help pay up pay the claim you know what if that trucking company doesn't isn't financially solvent and you know and then they come back to you because you're the generator of the waste and you relied on you know your contract with them, which most likely does not address environmental liabilities.

Speaker 9 That's the key.

Speaker 9 A lot of contracts,

Speaker 9 lease agreements, contracts, when it comes to indemnities and hold harmless, more often than not, it doesn't say anything about environmental issues.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 I also think to myself, like,

Speaker 8 it's not always about whether or not you're actually at fault.

Speaker 8 I think about that scenario you just described where, you know, ABC trucking comes and picks picks up the waste and is in transit, truck tips, spills.

Speaker 8 Again, if I'm, if I'm an attorney worth my salt, I go, okay, trucking company for sure. And then whose crap did you have on the truck?

Speaker 8 Company A, company B, company C, I'm naming all of you, you know, all, you know, all of your, you know, if there's board of directors, executives, I'm naming everybody.

Speaker 8 And then we'll see what shakes out. And even if you're found not to have any type of negligence or to actually be responsible, there's all the legal bills.

Speaker 8 And if you don't have the coverage in place, your company's going to decline and not pay legal. And now you're left out.

Speaker 8 Now you're defending yourself, even if you're even, you know, as an insured in this case, you're defending yourself against a claim that may be frivolous or you may not have responsibility for, but you still have to come out of pocket for all the legal defense.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I think oftentimes

Speaker 8 I'm not going to say us as insurance professionals forget, hopefully we don't, but certainly our clients forget that even if our exposure isn't front and center,

Speaker 8 the idea that even frivolous or claims that we aren't necessarily responsible for wouldn't have a, um,

Speaker 8 that wouldn't have a result against us, we still have to defend ourselves and pay legal bills. And the insurance company and your policy pays for that.

Speaker 8 And, and that is often an overlooked selling point that like, you know, you get these contractors who will go, ah, that's never going to happen to me.

Speaker 8 I'm like, look, you can be brought into a lawsuit for anything. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean, you know, you don't just get off the hook because you weren't liable.

Speaker 8 Like you have to go through the whole process and pay attorneys and pay for all these, these fees.

Speaker 8 And your insurance policy covers that unless you don't have it.

Speaker 8 So I think that's another piece that we often forget, that even if it's a low level of exposure, having just simply the defense coverage alone is oftentimes worth its weight. for the premium.

Speaker 9 Absolutely. I do have, I do have a lot of insureds that that is one of the primary driving factors of purchasing the policies for the defense costs.

Speaker 9 And a lot of the environmental carers now too, Ryan, they include things like public relations, crisis management, or emergency response.

Speaker 9 So not only do you have the defense costs, but you also have some financial

Speaker 9 insurance there to help. with a public relations issue, right? I mean, that's getting out in the forefront, making sure it's

Speaker 9 explained properly, what you're doing to address it. You don't want to have a negative stigma associated with your business, your operations, you know, especially if you're in a small town, right?

Speaker 9 So these insurance policies now have the carriers have included coverage parts and specific limits to address things like crisis management and emergency response.

Speaker 8 Is that like a reputation management kind of thing?

Speaker 9 Yeah, it's similar. It is similar.
You know,

Speaker 9 with environmental insurance being not admitted in most cases, you'll find that those 40 carriers that offer it, the forms all look, read, act a little differently.

Speaker 9 So sometimes terminology varies, but

Speaker 9 the intent of the public relations is to be there to help and make sure that

Speaker 9 your story is told properly so that you can avoid any negative media. If it says it was truly an accident, right?

Speaker 9 How are you addressing it?

Speaker 9 How are you safeguarding the neighborhood and the people that are around you? Things like that. And that's where the insurance can come into play with that as well.

Speaker 8 Yeah, that's one. In particular, reputation management.
We don't write cyber policies anymore at Rogue that don't have reputation management on it.

Speaker 8 That's, it's a relatively new coverage that's been pulled out before it was kind of encapsulated in some other things.

Speaker 8 And now it's actually off for the carriers that Wheeler will write with, which are the majority of the ones that people would know today as they've all kind of added it. But over the last few years.

Speaker 8 this this coverage in particular has become a major deal because you have like similar to uh i'm sure a spill right you have a spill, a cyber loss can have the same reputational impact.

Speaker 8 All of a sudden, people feel like they can't trust you. They may believe that you fixed the problem, but don't feel comfortable working with you.

Speaker 8 And that's where something like reputation management comes in. So, that's really, that's really interesting.

Speaker 8 I mean, that's a whole byproduct that oftentimes you don't even think about is, yeah, we fixed the spill and yeah, the insurance paid and yeah, we got it cleaned up and yeah, we're back in business, but now no one wants to do business with us because who wants to be the person that did business with the company that just had a spill, right?

Speaker 8 I mean, who wants to sign that contract? You know, that's taking a leap of faith from your customers. And I think that's an often overlooked aspect of a loss is the reputational impact.

Speaker 9 Yeah, yeah, because environmental losses can definitely give you

Speaker 9 a negative

Speaker 9 outlook in your neighborhoods in many cases. I mean, you see them all the time, spills, explosions, having BP oil spill, things like that.
I mean, you know, those are things that we don't forget.

Speaker 9 You know, so yeah, so the insurance, you're right. The insurance are a lot of other nuances to the insurance other than, you know, the loss.

Speaker 9 And we talked, you talked, asked a little bit more about like, who do we go after? You know, there's the obvious ones. Here's another thing I like to bring up.

Speaker 9 When you talk about like the obvious companies that have exposures, you know, your large chemical risks, your hazardous waste, right?

Speaker 9 A lot of times they come back to me and their argument is, you know what, we've been doing this for 20 years. We've been doing this for 50 years.
We know what we're doing.

Speaker 9 We know what we're involved in we have the right type of containment we have the right type of safeguards we have the right type of um plant managers we've got great and i said that's awesome you know obviously that's a great thing to hear about a company you want to know that you're managing it properly but what environmental insurance does is it helps you with the things that you can't control you that the people that are coming by your property, your neighbors, you know, those class action lawsuits, things like that, because you may have all of the safeguards in place.

Speaker 9 You know, I went

Speaker 9 back years ago, I was, I had a company that was a furniture manufacturer, an upholstery manufacturer.

Speaker 9 They had an environmental insurance policy and they kept saying, you know, we store our chemicals properly, we store our glues,

Speaker 9 we are maintaining the proper permits for air, you know, air permitting, proper water discharge permits.

Speaker 9 But what ended up happening is there was a neighborhood that was downwind from them that was claiming that their children were getting sick, getting headaches from the smell from these glues and solvents, right?

Speaker 9 And so they formed a class action lawsuit. And so then you, like you said, the defense costs, that's something that's completely out of their control.
They were not doing anything that was, you know,

Speaker 9 harmful per se.

Speaker 9 but they still had to defend themselves against this lawsuit until they could prove that they were within their air permitting, you know, standards and things like that.

Speaker 9 So it's, it's that, it's that, those neighbors, those people that are around you that you can't control um unfortunately we you know our society is becoming more and more and more litigious and you know those are the things that in you know insurance is there to help you and help your bottom line and protect you because the chances are you don't have this coffer of money set aside to defend yourself from an environmental clam yeah do you see so when people are selling environmental do you find that they're proactively outreaching calling companies to offer hey, is your broker ever talked about environment?

Speaker 8 Or does it more seem like a cross-sell or an add-on as part of a package, you know, a full portfolio package of coverages?

Speaker 8 Do you see it's more something that they're proactively pushing into the market? Or is it an, I don't, add-on makes it seem, you know, less important than it is, but, you know,

Speaker 8 just a... a larger part of a or a small part of a larger package of coverages

Speaker 9 so i see a a little bit of both. I see that I see a lot of opportunities that come in and sales that come in because it is a contract requirement, a lender requirement, part of a sale.

Speaker 9 You know, all of a sudden, everyone's, oh gosh, we want to sell this property, this division of our business.

Speaker 9 And now there's environmental attorneys that are saying we haven't addressed something properly. So, it comes up that way.

Speaker 9 But I do see it as a cross-sell or an add-on or something when you're looking at all of your clients and

Speaker 9 your prospects,

Speaker 9 adding it on and making sure it's addressed with everyone you know kind of in a proactive fashion and and here's i i have a like a one hour seed class i do in ohio and that's what i try to do when i go into agencies and get i say let's talk about what your current clients you know i don't need any names tell me what they do let's talk about what they do um

Speaker 9 and then i have questions you know so okay as a contractor are you comfortable that this you know so it becomes more of a cross-sell um rather than you know,

Speaker 9 a cold calling type of, you know, I do have, there are, there are brokers and there are agents that do target environmental companies, environmental remediation companies, contractors, consultants.

Speaker 9 But like I said, you know, a large percentage of what I see are developers, real estate investment trusts, you know, and the reason they're buying it is because

Speaker 9 you've got the investors, you've got, you know, your lenders, and they want to make sure that they're they're covered and that there's protection there in the event of environmental issue.

Speaker 8 So

Speaker 8 your company in particular, so we've 30 some odd minutes into the conversation, and I am sure that there are people out there listening going, you know, this is something we've talked about or, oh my gosh, I've never even considered this, but you know, this is really something I'm interested in offering.

Speaker 8 Talk to, you know, kind of let's transition from environmental coverage in general, talk a little bit about how you guys work and,

Speaker 8 if I had an environmental risk come across my desk right now, I'd have no idea where to go. Now I do, obviously, I would come to you, but like, how does that work? How do you guys work?

Speaker 8 How do we get in? How does someone get in touch with you? How do you, what does the process look like? Is there a quote online? Is it according forms?

Speaker 8 Like, talk to me a little bit about you guys, your process, and how you act as a partner for retail brokers.

Speaker 9 Sure, sure.

Speaker 9 So

Speaker 9 just the same as any other wholesale broker, right? Any retail agent can come access Argosy.

Speaker 9 And there are other wholesale brokers besides Argosy that do have environmental divisions that do offer environmental expertise, right? Because you're going to find that.

Speaker 9 such a small percentage of brokers and agents actually have someone on the retail side that specializes in environmental.

Speaker 9 So most of the most of the policies are placed through some type of a wholesale broker.

Speaker 9 The way in my experience and in the years I've been doing it, what I like to do is I kind of like to have just little conversation. So, this is, I'll give you an example, Ryan.

Speaker 9 So, I get a call from an agent that either I've done business with or, you know, a referral from the IBNO or someone that says, hey, I heard you do environmental insurance. This is what I have.

Speaker 9 I have a client that's, you know, a prospect that's bidding on a contract, or this is, I'm going out to do their renewal in the next couple of weeks, and this is what they do.

Speaker 9 Tell me what I should be asking them from an environmental perspective. Tell me where, where they could potentially have a coverage gap, or do you have any type of claim scenarios? Can you help?

Speaker 9 I personally like to, you know, offer, you know, hey, I'll go with you. Put me on the phone with them.
Let's have a candid conversation. Let's talk about their operations.

Speaker 9 Let's talk about their experience. You know, in no case do I want to freak someone out that, oh my gosh, but I want the producers, the salespeople to feel comfortable.
You know what?

Speaker 9 Let's talk about this a little bit.

Speaker 9 So when you talk about accord forms and apps, so every environmental carrier has their own application.

Speaker 9 So it's, we have to, as in environmental, do the best that we can to get as much information as we can

Speaker 9 without necessarily filling out an application, if that makes sense, right?

Speaker 9 Because you're going to have to fill out an application for whatever the corresponding, most cases, the corresponding carrier that you end up binding coverage with.

Speaker 9 But there are some basic questions, you know, about operations, whether you're looking at a piece of property, whether you're looking at a contractor.

Speaker 9 You know, a lot of it is a lot of the general liability information, a lot of the property renewal information.

Speaker 9 So I like to do it on a more tailored type of approach where, okay,

Speaker 9 what are we looking at here? Here's five questions you need to ask, or here's five things that information that we need to have to kind of get an idea.

Speaker 9 And then the environmental market's pretty good about giving coverage indications.

Speaker 9 You know, it's not necessarily an online, when I say not necessarily, there are some online programs for things like smaller contractors pollution liability underground storage tank right i have access to some online programs with some basic information but those are for the fairly smaller straightforward ones um where you ask you know you answer 20 questions and you can get an indication but most of it's a you know a one-off type of scenario so i try to be as assist as much as possible in gathering the underwriting information um to make it as easy as possible on the producer and the insured and not to have them feel overwhelmed, you know, kind of just get some information about their operations,

Speaker 9 you know, to try to get them some type of a coverage proposal to consider.

Speaker 9 You know, and I even run into people who say, Well, you know what, we looked at environmental insurance like five years ago, it was way too expensive. If you haven't looked,

Speaker 10 if you

Speaker 10 haven't

Speaker 10 looked

Speaker 10 better.

Speaker 9 some

Speaker 9 have looked at it recently and

Speaker 9 understand what the coverage is providing. That's another thing too, Ryan,

Speaker 9 is

Speaker 9 I will, I have been involved in situations where I've taken over existing policies via like a broker of record agent of record letter.

Speaker 9 And I get them and I sit down with the insured and the retail broker and try to get a feel. Okay, well,

Speaker 9 why did you buy this policy? What did you think it was covering you for? You know, what was your concern?

Speaker 9 And there have been a lot of scenarios where what they thought they were getting coverage for is not what the policy is providing. You know, they're not off-the-shelf.

Speaker 9 you know, apples to apples type of policies. That's the thing with environmental is they're very tailored.
They're, you know, like I said, all terminology differs between carriers.

Speaker 9 So you want to just you know you want to make sure as a retail broker or an agent you're you have access to a resource whether it's argosy or another wholesaler that has someone that's willing to help you understand the coverage help you identify the exposures with with with a prospect or with a client you know feel comfortable get them comfortable with the topic and then come up with a solution you know

Speaker 9 there obviously you can't get coverage for a burning building. So there are some scenarios where there's not coverage available.
But I always try to make sure that

Speaker 9 everyone is on the same page with this is what we need to address, and this is, you know, this is what we can get addressed.

Speaker 8 Um,

Speaker 8 are you in all 50 states or 48? Yes, okay, yes, yes.

Speaker 8 If somebody is listening to this and they want to get a hold of you, they want to learn more, they would like to work with you, or at least start the conversation, where do they do that?

Speaker 8 What's the best way to get a hold of you?

Speaker 9 The best way is via email. It's tanya at argacyrisk.com.
So it's t-a-n-y-a at argosyrisk.com, a-r-g-o-s-y risk.com. That's the best way.
My email follows me everywhere.

Speaker 9 But that, you know, you know, that's the easiest way. Um, I do can call me on the phone as well anytime, 440-458-2075.

Speaker 9 So, you know, I'm open, open to a conversation. I also like, you know, even if it's just a matter of, you know, picking my brain a little bit, you know, this is, this is, this is what my client does.

Speaker 9 This is what our prospect does.

Speaker 9 What should we ask them?

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 I appreciate you coming on the show. This is a great topic.
I know we've been trying to get a time for a few months, I think it feels like, or even at least a few weeks. But I'm glad we finally did.

Speaker 8 And I love this topic. I love that, you know, that you're specializing in it.
And I think hopefully we've opened some people's eyes to environmental, not just as,

Speaker 8 you know, this tag-along thing, but as a really important piece of properly protecting the sustainability of their clients. And I love it.

Speaker 8 And I just appreciate you taking the time with me and with the audience. And you certainly opened my eyes and my little marketing brain is spinning as well.
So,

Speaker 8 yeah, I appreciate it. And thank you so much.

Speaker 9 Well, thank you, Ryan. I appreciate it as well.
I enjoyed it.

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