RHS 108 - Catching Up with Jason Cass - Part II

26m
In this episode of The Ryan Hanley Show, Ryan Hanley is joined by Jason Cass, Owner of Agency Intelligence and managing partner of the Insurance Alliance. This is the second half of the conversation with Jason Cass that started on the Agency Intelligence podcast early this week. In this episode, we break down the current state of digital insurance and where we see the largest opportunities for growth. Don't miss this episode...

Episode Highlights:

Jason and Ryan discuss carrier growth rates and contingencies. (5:10)

Ryan mentions what’s significant about AP Intego’s platform. (6:57)

Jason and Ryan share their opinions on when to utilize B2B platforms. (9:26)

Jason mentions why every agency has their own fingerprint. (10:27)

Jason explains how to build a balance sheet. (11:44)

Jason shares what David explained to him about how agents try to build P&Ls when you should be trying to build a balance sheet. (11:32)

Jason shares one of the things he realized from what David said to him. (12:12)

Ryan tells Jason about a conversation he had this week at Indium. (18:36)

Key Quotes:

“Every agency is actually its own fingerprint, right? Because we're all unique. So, you've got your team built-in on this.” - Jason Cass

“David really laid that out one time, when he was trying to explain to me about how agents try to build P&Ls, when really you should be trying to build a balance sheet. How you build that balance sheet is by creating revenue, but not with so many clients.” - Jason Cass

“I think when you say long term of who you can be, I think people don't realize it's those types of people who are going to stay with you and build that base that's going to help you project that. It's all because you tried to give them that one coverage.” - Jason Cass

Resources Mentioned:

Jason Cass LinkedIn

Agency intelligence

Insurance Alliance

Reach out to Ryan Hanley

Press play and read along

Runtime: 26m

Transcript

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Speaker 9 Hello everyone and welcome back to the show. Today we have kind of a crazy episode for you inso much as it is the second part of a conversation that took place between me and Cass about a week ago.

Speaker 9 We recorded this episode, decided to break it up into two episodes, the first part of which was pushed out through Cass's podcast. So if you want to listen to the first half, go there.

Speaker 9 I highly recommend you do. Some of what we talk about here may be slightly out of context if you didn't listen to that episode.
But if you didn't, I think you'll still enjoy this one.

Speaker 9 So, it's the kind of continuation.

Speaker 9 Really, I think I was pretty fired up. It was a Friday morning.

Speaker 9 There's so many things going on here at Rogue, and we're moving so fast, and it's such an exciting time that I think Cass just caught me on a weird day because I was talking fast and I was talking loud, and we were talking some shit.

Speaker 9 So,

Speaker 9 it was a really good conversation hopefully you'll take something out of it i think at a minimum you'll be entertained and uh as always um when cass and i get together it's it's it's good times um that all being said i want to give a big shout out to our sponsor here at uh the show that is tarmica t-ar-m-i-k-a.com don't call me tarmika tarmica t-ar-m-i-k-a.com making small commercial profitable by giving you multiple quotes on a risk it's like 12 questions you have to answer, and bam, you're getting quotes from Chubb, Harford, Liberty, Grange, you know, acuity.

Speaker 9 I mean, depending on who you're appointed with or whatever, you know, I'm with the Indium network as well. So, Indium is kind of a best-in-class network aggregate.

Speaker 9 I don't want to call them an aggregator because that's not really what they are, but a network, we'll say.

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Speaker 9 As always, I love you guys for listening to this show. I love you for subscribing to this show.
It means so much to me.

Speaker 9 I do this show because I just love sharing these conversations with you guys and hope it helps you move your business, your agency, make a new connection, put a a new thought into your brain that could drive something fun interesting engaging in your agency carrier insurtech whatever you do i just love you for listening all right let's get on to the conversation um so i guess to kind of wrap up where where we finished last time uh on on your show is just

Speaker 10 There is a tremendous opportunity, not just in small business, but in basically every line of business for

Speaker 10 agencies, agents, I don't care if today you're just, you know, look at what Todd Tams is doing up in Iowa, creating Mod Advisor and Direct Work Comp. And

Speaker 10 for agents who want to look into the marketplace, who want to invest a little time, energy, and capital, there is the ability to scale as far as you want to go. It's there.

Speaker 10 And I do believe that window is closing. And the reason that I believe it's closing, and then I do want to get your, I've done a lot of talking so far, so I want to get your opinion.

Speaker 2 I like it.

Speaker 7 So much, so much different perspective.

Speaker 10 Yeah,

Speaker 10 this window is going to close. And I don't mean close like, again, everyone goes apocalyptic.
Oh, are you telling us that we're going to go out of business? That's not what I'm saying.

Speaker 10 Not even close, right? Like, no one is putting the Murray Group out of business. No one is putting, we referenced Matt Wood on your show.
No one's putting Matt Wood out of business, right?

Speaker 10 Like he's going to continue to grow. I'm saying for agents who want to rapidly scale into a certain niche or space or larger geographic region, it's there.

Speaker 10 That being said, there is coming a day when if you're not growing, you're gonna be in trouble. Things are gonna get harder, significantly harder.
Not impossible.

Speaker 10 You're not gonna get put out of business, but they're going to become significantly harder.

Speaker 10 And if you haven't seen it already, then you're kind of, you're either operating in a very specific part of the country where it just hasn't gotten to you yet, or you're just not listening because Carriers are moving from book of business size to growth rate when it comes to contingencies.

Speaker 10 They only care about growth when it comes to new appointments. And new appointments are becoming harder and harder to get.

Speaker 10 I was very lucky because I have the platform that I have that I was able to, and the relationships, you know, a decades worth of relationships, I was able to extend into certain places and set things up.

Speaker 10 And carriers are willing to bet on me because I think they think like, this guy's so public, you know, he's not going to let this fail because he doesn't, because he's a public guy, right?

Speaker 8 He's not, can't just like fall into a hole.

Speaker 10 I think it's valid. I understand why they took that risk.
And I, you know, I want to,

Speaker 10 for the carriers who, who, who did make investment, who were willing to invest in a relationship with me, I want to make good on that.

Speaker 10 That being said, if you are not growing, you are going, life is going to become very hard. Because if you take, you know, take your independent agency hat off and walk into a carrier for a second.

Speaker 10 If you're sitting there looking at the marketplace and you have, you know, you have Amazon connecting with Next and just driving, what, millions of premium a week?

Speaker 7 week they say next is the most that's the one that scares the most carriers out there yeah yeah that's that's I told you that that is the that is the number one yeah yeah yeah there that's where I heard it that is

Speaker 10 and I that came off way that came off wrong

Speaker 8 no no maybe it wasn't that you told me that is um that is

Speaker 10 a hundred percent and and it wasn't the amazon deal it was buying ap indigo right so now next can drive everything through next that they want anything they don't want, normally, right?

Speaker 10 If you're a, if you're just a direct carrier with one brand, if it doesn't fit your appetite,

Speaker 10 oh, bummer. You know what I mean? Now with AP Indigo, they can take that.
Anything they don't want to cherry-pick themselves, they can write through Hartford Travelers Liberty Nationwide Shelf.

Speaker 8 AP Indigo.

Speaker 10 AP Indigo is a digital agency.

Speaker 2 Oh, okay. Oh, okay.

Speaker 10 Yeah, so it's, so they, um, in large part, AP Indigo is, it, is, is in part how I'm, what I'm modeling rogue after, like affinity-based, you know, brokerage. And

Speaker 10 that, that deal for them was enormous. So now they can go back to Amazon and say, hey, you can send us anyone.
If it doesn't fit next,

Speaker 10 we now have a mechanism to write everything else that comes through that you send to us. And if I'm a partner like Amazon, I'm going, wow, that's pretty freaking sweet.

Speaker 10 Because if I go D to C with any of the large nationals, they're only going to be able able to write me with them.

Speaker 10 Now, secretively, we all know they have their own agencies on the side, but it's like now you have two brands. You can literally, as next, go to

Speaker 10 these enormous partners.

Speaker 10 I'm sure they are, so I don't want to act like I'm saying something they don't know, but they're most likely banging the door down on Stripe for business and PayPal for business and all these other large B2B platform plays to say, you can go with them direct, or you can go with us and make sure every single one of your customers is monetized because we can write but there's not a customer you can send us that we can't write and that to me is a very fine value that's a very powerful value proposition wow that is dude that is uh i see it now and i think um

Speaker 7 wow i i think a lot of your listeners do as well because like i i've never really heard you structure it out now lately you and i will both admit over the last six to eight months we really don't get to talk much because we're too busy growing

Speaker 7 and that's why this conversation is awesome And I think, and I hope you guys realize as listeners that this is genuine. Like, we're just really, I didn't really understand the total affinity.

Speaker 7 And I'm really glad I, I kind of asked some of the questions in that. So, um, and then when you think about your wife and Murray, you know, I'm thinking, God, this is like night and day from her.

Speaker 7 You know what I mean? So I.

Speaker 10 It's really not. Think about this.
It's not. Think about everyone.
Think about Kilgo. Think about her.
Think about GNN. Those are just affinity partnerships of mortgage brokers.
That's all it is.

Speaker 10 This isn't new to the industry.

Speaker 7 It's new to the industry. No, No, it's not.

Speaker 7 That's what you're thinking is pretty interesting.

Speaker 10 Yeah,

Speaker 10 it's new to small business for sure, right? It's new to small business, but it's not new to insurance.

Speaker 10 It's just no one has ever had the mechanisms or built the back-end process to be able to do this for small business.

Speaker 10 We have PL Rater, we have, you know, whatever other raters exist, you know, so we can

Speaker 10 Tarmaca hasn't launched PL yet, but, you know,

Speaker 10 eventually they will, right? So So in personal lines, the ability to take a lead, comparatively rate it quickly,

Speaker 10 bind it,

Speaker 10 the whole deal, that process has been built out for years and we're very comfortable with that process. I mean, essentially, my wife is doing this in personal lines.
That's what her even built on.

Speaker 10 And all I'm saying is

Speaker 10 we've been eating shit for 17 months on purpose to build the process mechanism systems, et cetera, so that we can do this in small commercial. And And now we're starting to execute on that.

Speaker 7 And this has got to be exciting explaining this to your team, right? I mean, because everybody's got to be bought in because this is a different model.

Speaker 7 And I say every agency is actually

Speaker 7 its own fingerprint, right? Because we're all unique. But yeah, so you've got your team built in on this.
A lead comes in for personal lines. Who's doing that? Is that your CSR?

Speaker 8 How do you create those?

Speaker 10 New York now. A lot of times I'll just send it to Lauren.
I don't want to write personal lines.

Speaker 10 Now, we will write personal lines if, like, agents sometimes will refer us business like they're hey my client is moving here we we handle them with white gloves so we're going to take care of them we'll put them with good markets we will rock because we do write a lot of personal lines for our small business clients but part of like i want to average three policies a minimum for every one of our small business customers and that can include personal lines right so so if i get a small business owner at a rap you know we're asking hey can we take you know let us let us handle your small your personal lines as well that way you only have one relationship you only have to worry about calling one place you know and that kind of stuff so and you're driving up your revenue per client as well right yeah so we think about it you know account-based revenue so you know how do we how do we push that number up and

Speaker 10 you know

Speaker 7 that's something David really explained to me I know that seems so simple but David really laid that out one time when he was trying to explain to me about how agents try to build P ⁇ Ls when really you should be trying to build a balance sheet and how you build that balance sheet is by creating revenue but not with so many clients.

Speaker 7 You know what I mean? So looking at, as you said, account-based revenue rather than just looking at policy revenue, right? Or policies in force.

Speaker 7 You know,

Speaker 7 those things don't really tell us much because you could have a thousand policies in force, but they're all $300 motorcycle policies paying your agency $30, right? And so that just doesn't make sense.

Speaker 7 And you know, one of the things I realized, Henley, I want to get your thought on this, is I witnessed two agencies.

Speaker 7 One had two and a half million in revenue, and the other had two and a half million in revenue.

Speaker 7 And one of them had 18 people working in it, and the other one had two agency owner producers, and they had like a service. They had like three other people that would help them.

Speaker 7 And it was, and they both were 2.5 million in revenue, right?

Speaker 7 And the only difference between one and the other, And as we're saying, listeners, one's not better than the other, but was that one was a generalist and one was a specialist in a niche.

Speaker 7 Doesn't mean both of them are, you and I have good friends that are generalists, but I'm just saying I don't think we necessarily realize that until later life.

Speaker 7 And I think that like what David teaches and what Charles Speck teaches was always held at like the higher, bigger broker level, right?

Speaker 7 That's what's so special about what these guys are doing is they're bringing that education down to the more main street agents that's now allowing us to look at our books of books differently and say, wow, it's more about the revenue than it is about trying to put more policies on.

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Peace. Let's get back to the episode.

Speaker 10 Yeah, well, I'm of two minds. One, I would put Mick Hunt in that category as well as another guy who is is teaching this methodology and doing a tremendous job.

Speaker 10 I got to spend some time this week with Mick Hunt and I just think the world of what Premiere Strategy Box is doing. I mean, they're all the processes.
I mean, I called him like a month ago.

Speaker 10 I think I said this on the show, one of the episodes. I'm not sure when it'll come out, but I said, like, I called him a month ago and I was like, I need your help.
Like, I'm dying.

Speaker 10 I'm just not good at documenting processes. And he's like, boop, we got it.

Speaker 10 So now we're a client of Premiere Strategy Box and he is meeting with my people every week for an hour you know or someone from his team is and like here's your cancellation process here's your this process so like you couple and my my reason for saying that is love this couple what charles speck and cruthers with killing commercial and mick and his producer guys with with process that was never readily available right like we all kept our processes like hidden in a locked box you know now it's like freaking Jenkins will just take his latest process and post it on the open web you know what I mean like and I think that's amazing So, you know, Jinx.

Speaker 10 Yeah. So those kind of things together, I think are allowing any agency of any size to compete at any level.
Now, what I will say is

Speaker 10 there was a time when I was like, oh man, that five-person agency, that must be amazing. You know what I mean? They have the same revenue.

Speaker 10 I would say, and this maybe will sound super fluffy, but, you know, I really like working with smaller accounts. You know, like I

Speaker 10 talk to people and they've just never been given real education on the business.

Speaker 10 You know, middle market people, I know Dave would say a lot of middle market people aren't given real education too, but I'd say in general, they tend to be a more sophisticated buyer.

Speaker 10 When you're writing a $50,000 check or $100,000 check for one policy, you tend to question that a little more, right? But, you know, I'm working with a guy who

Speaker 10 does vegan mozzarella stick manufacturing. It's like a $12,000 account.

Speaker 10 He's literally never had anyone walk him through his policy ever. Hey, what's your product? You don't have product spoilage, bro.
What the is product spoilage?

Speaker 8 Hey, man, like

Speaker 10 you got

Speaker 10 $50,000 worth of stuff on a truck that you're sending out to one of these warehouses, and that truck breaks down, it all unfreezes and is gone. What happens? You just got to eat that 50 grand?

Speaker 10 Well, no, I don't want that. That could happen.
Well, no, shit, it could happen. We need to, but it's, it's a $70 endorsement, right?

Speaker 10 Like, but this is the kind of stuff that, you know, I think we get so caught up. And again, I, this is not a knock-on middle market.

Speaker 10 I just think we either want to just treat these people like they're, let's get them in, get them out as fast as they can, or

Speaker 10 we want to spend time on the middle market stuff.

Speaker 10 And what I'm saying is, if I can, if we can build the processes to where my people aren't wasting time on transactional shit, that they can spend more time making that $12,000 client feel like a middle market client.

Speaker 10 And

Speaker 10 that's a win for me. I just helped a small business owner better protect his,

Speaker 10 you know, the guy, his business in this particular case. And that makes me feel good because I know,

Speaker 10 and this isn't a knock on anyone listening, but I know most agents wouldn't spend the time with that guy. They would take what he had, they would give it to their account manager.

Speaker 10 The account manager would quote apples to apples. They would try to get a better price, and they would go back to the guy and say, hey, look, I can save you $700.

Speaker 10 And he still wouldn't have product spoilage coverage. And

Speaker 7 you made $1,500 in commission is what agents are thinking right now. And what they're wrong is, is that guy's going to stay on the books for 10 to 15 years.
That's a $15,000 to $20,000 client.

Speaker 7 When Walmart makes projections that they have to live up to, which helps their stock go up and down, they're projecting out based on prior numbers. We can do that as business owners.

Speaker 7 And I think when you say long-term of who you can be, I think people don't realize it's those type of people who are going to stay with you and build that base that's going to help you project project that.

Speaker 7 And it's all because you tried to give them that one coverage. And I love what you just said.

Speaker 7 Somebody else would have come along and tried to save him $700 and he still wouldn't have had the coverage. Yeah.
Oh shit. So well said, dude.
So well said.

Speaker 10 And the good news is, you know, if you look into now, granted, I think I am on record as saying in a general sense, the agency management ecosystem

Speaker 10 is a travesty of what we're given. But, you know, I'm working towards Salesforce.
And I believe you need to have a system of that flexibility and caliber to track these kind of things, right?

Speaker 10 Like, I want to be able to track, did you offer product? Did you offer this coverage? Right? Because eventually I'm going to have 20 guys spread out.

Speaker 10 You know, like Matt Jagger, my producer, he lives in Chicago.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 10 The woman that I'm looking to hire, she lives in Florida. So there's literally going to be, I'm going to have four people in the States.
Two of them are going to live in the Albany area.

Speaker 10 One will be in Illinois. I mean, I don't know if I'm going to hire this woman or not.
I think I might.

Speaker 7 One's in the Philippines.

Speaker 10 One's in the Philippines, right? So like,

Speaker 10 to me, I don't care where you live. You know, I had this, I was at a thing this week for Indium, the network that I'm a part of that I absolutely love.
And watch out because things are happening.

Speaker 10 But I'm very proud to be part of it. And we're having a conversation.
We're talking about Facebook.

Speaker 10 Someone said, so the Indium doesn't today have like a group, like a group function that you can go to and chat and talk about stuff and bitch about things, you know. I mean, like, we don't have that.

Speaker 10 And I said, Well, let's do it on Facebook. And someone was like, Well, you know, what if your network blocks Facebook? And I'm like, Who the fuck is blocking Facebook?

Speaker 12 Oh, my God.

Speaker 10 Like, are we still doing that? They're like, Well, I don't want my people on. I go, bro, they all have a freaking phone right next to their desk with Facebook on it.

Speaker 10 Like, what do you think they're doing? Like, you know what I mean? And

Speaker 10 I said it in a slightly nicer way, but I was flabbergasted. I go, Are we really, we're really blocking websites in 2021? Like, are we still doing that?

Speaker 8 Like, we think

Speaker 7 you said even if they didn't have the phone, I still wouldn't block it. But as you said, you can block whatever you want.
They have a damn phone.

Speaker 10 So, then what? They got to put their phone in a lockbox? Like, how about we just trust our people and judge them on performance, right?

Speaker 10 Like, if Sally's not getting her work done, maybe we need to have a tough talk with Sally.

Speaker 10 Hey, Sally, I could give a shit if you spent 10 hours on Facebook if you got all your work done, but you're not. So, take take a hike.
And, you know, and I just,

Speaker 10 I don't understand that. But again, I'm a different kind of guy.
I completely get that. I think differently about it.

Speaker 10 I just, I just, you know, it's just funny to me, but I don't know how we got to that point.

Speaker 7 Well, you were talking about being an Indium and there was some guy you had met. You said you don't care where they live.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I don't care where they live. So it's kind of like,

Speaker 10 how can I worry about things like blocking Facebook if I don't care where they live? So to me,

Speaker 10 you know, as I build out this team and as I start to, you know, if I might have people across the entire country, right?

Speaker 10 All I care about is that you buy into our methodology and that you want to work hard, right? That you're willing to say,

Speaker 10 I want to help small, I believe, you know, look, I'm a registered Republican. I'm a liberal, you know, probably more of a libertarian.

Speaker 10 People, anyone who listens to this show long enough knows where my political views are.

Speaker 10 I think small business is the bedrock of our country and we have to at least let them on a level playing field.

Speaker 10 And what we do today, when we focus primarily on, and this is not a knock, but when we give A plus platinum double fucking service to middle market and treat small business owners like a bunch of jackasses who aren't willing to pay, what we're essentially saying, and then they'll bitch about the government giving tax breaks to Amazon, then you're a fucking hypocrite.

Speaker 10 And it's like, you know what I mean? Like that to me is, you know, and I'm not saying that anyone who focuses on the middle market doesn't do that.

Speaker 10 I'm saying in Jet, because I think that if those same humans who focus on middle market, and knowing specifically, I don't want anyone to killing commercial tickets the wrong way.

Speaker 10 I think if those individuals were interested in small business, they would deliver the same level of quality.

Speaker 10 I'm saying, as an industry, we look at big accounts and we're like, let's do everything we can. And for a smaller account, we're like, F them, get them in, get them out.
They're unprofitable.

Speaker 10 And that breaks me. Like, I grew up in a small town.
I, you know, small business is important to me. Like, I look at my our communities i look at our main streets and i'm like are

Speaker 10 i think that we as a society give lip service to small business and then do everything we can to you know fillate the the large businesses in our company or in our country and i'm not against big business i just think

Speaker 10 if we can

Speaker 10 give let them all operate on the same field and it and and what's gonna you're gonna have winners and losers in all the cases and it's all good but i just feel very passionate about the fact that there is a tremendous opportunity in our industry to serve small business.

Speaker 10 You need to have the systems and process in place, things like Salesforce. You know, these are big investments, but they're important.
And I think we can actually track better coverage.

Speaker 10 We can track retention better. I mean, my biggest concern is Next figures out retention.

Speaker 10 Next figures out retention, we're all screwed.

Speaker 7 So that's what's so awesome, dude. You got to go back, loyal, you know, and you're, these aren't loyal listeners, but your listeners have got to go back and listen to our prior podcast.

Speaker 7 And the reason is, Hanley, is I want you to wrap this up.

Speaker 7 But, dude, it just, it's a, it's, uh, the where you've come from, how you've progressed, your mind is thinking in advanced levels and in different scales. Good for you, man.
This is your show.

Speaker 7 But if you, if you like this, the listeners, please go back to listen to mine, which was part one. because it was just more of getting to know Hanley Morris.

Speaker 10 Yeah, so I apologize, man. I must be kind of fired up.
I got got eight hours of sleep last night, so I'm kind of jacked up this morning. But so let's do this again.

Speaker 10 Let's do another two-parter, except we'll flip it. So maybe like in a month, we'll do another two-parter.
We'll flip it, and I'll do 5% of the talking, and you can do 95%.

Speaker 7 Well, we did that earlier, and what we got to do is actually talk about 2021 second half.

Speaker 10 Yeah, we didn't talk about any of the stuff that you started it with, but I guess maybe it did. I mean, hey, you look into the way that I'm thinking, you know what I think is coming.

Speaker 8 And it's probably obvious.

Speaker 13 So let's go, brother.

Speaker 10 I got to jump to another thing, but I will say, just in closing this out, and I'll have said this in the intro to the episode as well: go back, listen to the first episode.

Speaker 10 I think this will all make sense.

Speaker 10 It's you know, agency, intelligence, podcast, network. You probably all subscribe to it, anyways.
But make sure you go listen to the first part.

Speaker 10 Dude, I didn't expect this to go where it went, but as always, guys,

Speaker 7 that's what it is. You're getting genuine.

Speaker 10 Hey, brain share, let's do it.

Speaker 7 Let's go. All right, later, man.

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