RHS 102 - Brett Fulmer, on Building the Next Generation of Insurance

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Speaker 3 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to The Show.

Speaker 2 Today we have a tremendous episode for you with a tremendous guest, Brett Fulmer, otherwise known as Broker Brett on all the socials.

Speaker 2 Brett's been around for a long time and I've always enjoyed his approach because he doesn't attack insurance from the traditional standpoint.

Speaker 2 He comes at it very much from a more technology or insurtech standpoint, but with a strong appreciation and respect for the traditional agency, the importance of insurance.

Speaker 2 And I've just always been a fan of the way that he views our industry. His work in insurance nerds has always been fantastic.

Speaker 2 You've seen him working with a bunch of different insurance tech startups as well as both like a brand ambassador slash advisor and growing his own agency that he's a partner of out in Newport Beach in California.

Speaker 2 And just this is a just a awesome conversation. It's just an awesome conversation.
And frankly, I'll say this. I say it during the episode as well, but

Speaker 2 when I realized that I hadn't had Brett on the show yet, I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I just, I kind of just assumed that I had interviewed him before.
And if I'm being completely candid,

Speaker 2 my mental around interviewing people spans the various shows that I'm done.

Speaker 2 Everything from the old Content Warfare show to Agency Nation to, you know, all, you know, I think this is the third iteration of a podcast that I've done.

Speaker 2 I tend to get it kind of jarbled in my head who I've interviewed, who I haven't. And when I realized that I hadn't actually had him on the show, I was like, oh my gosh, dude, you got to get on.
So

Speaker 2 hopefully that gives you an understanding of my appreciation and respect for Brett, what he's doing, and what I think he's capable of in our space.

Speaker 2 And I hope that you'll connect with him on LinkedIn, Twitter, great follow. But definitely get in Brett's ecosystem, make him a connection.
Highly recommend it.

Speaker 2 And he'll talk a little bit about how you do that at the end of the show. So you can also connect with him and all his spots in the show notes of this episode.
Go to ryanhanley.com.

Speaker 2 That's where all the episodes are.

Speaker 2 But before we get there, just quick shout out to a couple sponsors of the show, the people that make this possible, tools and people that I love and respect. Big shout out to Donna for agents.
Donna

Speaker 2 is an analytics platform that is changing the game for us. I mean, really, it's giving us insights into our book of business in a way that wouldn't be possible otherwise.

Speaker 2 Now, your natural reaction to that should be, Ryan, you're a startup agency. Put your head down, write business.
You know, just why are you worried about all these things?

Speaker 2 Because my agency is not going to be a small startup business for very long. Like, I'm not taking the traditional path, and I'm certainly not going to grow at the traditional pace.

Speaker 2 And for that reason, I want to make sure that I have the tools in place that mirror, or mirrors the wrong word, that support the core values of what we're doing.

Speaker 2 And data, and not just data to have data, but data that I can look at, that I can digest and make business decisions around is one of the core core pieces of

Speaker 2 that's going to separate Rogue from everyone else. And that's why I've made the investment.
And

Speaker 2 Donna is a sponsor of this show, but I pay for Donna.

Speaker 2 It is a tool that I pay for out of our, you know, it's one of, it's an agency line expense

Speaker 2 because I believe in it. That's, that's the whole deal.
I believe in this tool. And I think you should go to, you know, Google Donna for agents,

Speaker 2 just the people behind the project, the people people involved with the project, the agents that are using Donna today.

Speaker 2 This, if data is something that is important to you. Now, if it's not important to you, just disregard this.
But if it is, this is a tool you at least want to know about.

Speaker 2 It's a tool you at least want to go get the demo for and know about this tool. I promise you, you will not be disappointed.
Donna for agents, check it out.

Speaker 2 I just want to give a very quick shout out to Mick Hunt and the team at Premier Strategy Box. Guys, if you need help with something in your agency, and I'm going to say something as a broad term,

Speaker 2 connect with Mick, reach out, go to Premier Strategy, mystrategybox.com, mystrategybox.com, go to mystrategybox.com or just Google Premier Strategy Box. Find Mick Hunt, find his team.

Speaker 2 They will help you manage, build sales processes. Same thing with customer service, customer experience.

Speaker 2 The team there is incredible.

Speaker 2 And if you're looking to next level up, if you as an agency owner are sick of having your hands in every single process that happens in your agency and you want to really put yourself in positions where you can go be your best version of yourself and you need someone to step in and help manage sales flow or help manage service flow, then Mick and his team are the perfect partner.

Speaker 2 Every agent that I have referred to Mick and the team at Premiere Strategy Box has signed up. Every single agent.

Speaker 2 100 for 100, or I don't think I've sent 100 agents, but we're batting 1,000, I can say. So that's how much, how strongly I feel about Mick and the team at Premiere Strategy Box.

Speaker 2 Okay, I got that out of the way. I love you guys for listening.
As always, let's get on to Brett Fulmer, dude.

Speaker 10 What's up? How are you doing?

Speaker 9 Another day in the neighborhood, you know?

Speaker 10 We're recording already. We're coming in hot.
So I can't even ask about what we can and can't talk about. So, I mean, we'll just go for this.

Speaker 9 Well, we can we can turn it off for a sec if there's some.

Speaker 10 I don't think we should. You know, I think we just gotta, you know, the candid live feedback.

Speaker 9 Yeah, um, off if you if you want to go super off the record, we can just uh

Speaker 9 everyone can just ear muff, just say earmuffs to everyone, and then

Speaker 9 they can't hear us.

Speaker 10 Well, not to like family card, but what I think is interesting, and sorry, this will sound better.

Speaker 10 Dude, so when I got started, I'd already, I kind of cheated because I was at a startup around 2014 to 16, data visualization. Yep.

Speaker 10 But I want to say 17 or 18, I got an office job and it freaked me out because I'd always been outside salesman. So I go like walk or jog two or three miles in the morning.

Speaker 10 I listen to the whole agency nation like podcast catalog. That's really like, if I came in with a head of Steam, it's like he'd been in sales, had been around a startup.

Speaker 10 You guys were a little bit more nervous about tech than I was. I was like, and plus I had nothing to lose.
You know what I mean? So you worried about them coming in. I'm like, dude, tech happens.

Speaker 10 You know, like,

Speaker 10 usually helpful.

Speaker 9 I think the, I think the part about the insured tech revolution of 2016 that was.

Speaker 9 the most interesting to me. And I'll say,

Speaker 9 I agree with you.

Speaker 9 I think, you know, looking back now on, you know, five years ago, our position and even 2015 a little bit when it really started to get started, there was, I think it was less about the tech and more about the rhetoric.

Speaker 9 It was more this every insured tech founder of that generation.

Speaker 9 and and many some of which have changed their tune and changed their narrative it was combative it was disrupt tech

Speaker 9 it was des disrupt disintermediate the this this entire industry is filled full of sluggish idiots who don't understand, who can't innovate, who can't move, who are

Speaker 10 too. I thought it was going to come in and have a heyday, just outrun people, work hard.
It is hard to move products. It's hard to move relationships.

Speaker 9 And, you know, I'd say

Speaker 9 in the last few years, I've been blessed to be an advisor for a couple of different startups and our space.

Speaker 9 and not even necessarily startup startups, but emerging platforms of all different sizes and probably half dozen or so that some of which I talk about, some I don't.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 the number one thing that I say when I get involved with any of those groups, if they don't already understand this, is that understanding how this industry actually works and what we really do for a living is the core of being successful.

Speaker 9 I do not care how smart you are, how much money you are, how well connected you are.

Speaker 9 There are startups right now who look like they could be potential household names that have absolutely, positively no shot of ever reaching profitability.

Speaker 9 You know, you come in with a slick front end and 80% reinsurance, you're toast. You have no chance.
I don't care how good your marketing is. The first time we hit a hard market in reinsurance,

Speaker 9 you're toast.

Speaker 9 And we've seen some of that, you know, and I think, and that's just one small example.

Speaker 9 And I'm not talking about anyone.

Speaker 10 You have to start kind of unideal to get to ideal, but I see what you're saying. Like, unless the math pencils out right, you can be in trouble pretty quick, you know.

Speaker 9 And I'm not, and that's a very shallow, broad stroke example. And no one is quite so leveraged into reinsurance as that.

Speaker 9 But the idea is if you come in and you're going to bypass some of the traditional models, understand that you're not actually doing anything that is that

Speaker 10 new.

Speaker 9 And what I mean by that is there have been companies for

Speaker 9 a millennia that have tried to leverage different markets, come in with different backing.

Speaker 9 I mean, maybe not necessarily using digital or, you know, whatever, the different processes that we have today from a technology standpoint, but

Speaker 9 the idea of buying market share by dropping prices and being easier to do business with is not a new, that's not a new idea.

Speaker 9 that's a that's actually one of the most um recycled ideas that exists i think some have done it well some have haven't and the ones that i see like i look at um

Speaker 9 uh kyle um nakasuji

Speaker 10 yeah i always message

Speaker 9 and i'm sorry kyle i always switch your last name but um

Speaker 9 i have tremendous respect for the way that he's building clear cover And I'll tell you from a personalized perspective. Now, Rogue is a primarily small commercial, but we we have in our roadmap.

Speaker 9 Um, I want to start adding personal lines.

Speaker 10 Well,

Speaker 9 today,

Speaker 9 traditional per

Speaker 9 most carriers, from a commercial line standpoint, will open up to a more because we're in 20 states now.

Speaker 9 We have customers actually in 27 states, and you know, in the next six months, we'll be fully national, if not sooner.

Speaker 9 Um, probably not Alaska and Hawaii, just because it's just the traffic is so small, there's been zero interest. But say, we'll be in all lower 48 states

Speaker 9 inside of six months, if not earlier. Okay.
So to get an appointment with

Speaker 9 a traditional carrier in, and in the lower 48 on a national level for commercial lines is not incredibly difficult.

Speaker 9 You have a, you've, if you can prove that you understand the product and you have a plan. you know, checkbox, hey, just send us your license.
You're good to go.

Speaker 9 But on personal lines, I found, and again, I'm sure someone will email me and say, Ryan, but we are.

Speaker 10 I think I know where you're going.

Speaker 9 It's way, way different. It's, we're not appointing anyone in New Jersey.
Well, what do you mean? I'm in Pennsylvania and New York with you and have written business.

Speaker 9 You want to mean, well, in New Jersey, you know, you got to talk to Tim. Tim's been underwriting new.

Speaker 9 It's, it's like this completely different thing. So, okay,

Speaker 9 some of the bureaucratic stuff, completely willing to deal with. Some of it is just too much of a struggle.
So I look to some of the insure tech carrier, and I shouldn't say insure tech,

Speaker 9 this next generation of insurance carriers, clear cover, I'd put in this bucket

Speaker 9 as

Speaker 9 better national options for personalized insurance.

Speaker 10 Especially if you're focusing somewhere else, I think insurtechs can make all of us cross-sell more.

Speaker 10 There's a friend with a niche commercial expertise, and I was like, no, just go get set up with hippo and clear cover.

Speaker 10 That'll make that part of your life easy when people are demanding to get a quote for X.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 that's the way we're going to address it too.

Speaker 9 I think we will write with

Speaker 9 very commonly known traditional agencies. Not that we won't look at some of the insured techs, but pound for pound, I haven't seen them displacing

Speaker 9 either in ease of business or in quality of product. You know, any of the insure tech carriers.
on the commercial line side, I like the people running them and I have no problem with them.

Speaker 9 But I'll tell you i i'll take hartford or chubb or you know even

Speaker 10 gets you to them it's you know you know they're the

Speaker 9 the it's just as easy to quote with chubb or hartford as it is to quote with any of the insurtechs the product i think is is still better by far and the claims and is way better and um

Speaker 9 So I don't know that you're actually getting a better product yet on the commercial line side.

Speaker 9 But on the personal line side, like I look at Clearcover cover and I think clear cover is a, is a primetime player.

Speaker 9 I think clear cover's got a real shot of being, like, I look at hippo as a best in breed, personal lines. You know, I'm doing Air Course, you can't see me, insure tech, personal lines carrier.

Speaker 9 I think Hippo has kind of done a lot of things really right.

Speaker 9 And I have a lot of respect for them. And I think Clearcover is the auto equivalent.

Speaker 9 And I think they, did they just have a, no, it was Metro Mile that Hippo did a partnership with. I'm sure that's because of, because of scope, but

Speaker 10 I put a bunch of people. It looks like a, like a faux bundle, which I think is.
It's a faux bundle. Yeah.
Which I think it's cool. I mean.
Yeah. No, it makes sense.
No, I liked Hippo.

Speaker 10 The way, and I'm always way too political for my own good. I'm, you know, nice little Southern California guy.

Speaker 10 Hippos, I'm weeded. You know, 40 things are going on.
A realtor reaches out and says, hey, I need a quote. I need to put a mortgage company on it.
Can you turn something around?

Speaker 10 Boom, HIPPA real quick.

Speaker 10 You know, maybe travelers, if I have some more time, a little nicer situation, bundle, umbrella, whatever else.

Speaker 10 uh something more bespoke high net worth you know we'll go to a different carrier um but yeah they're great when you're in the weeds and you're weeded and you believe in the product um yeah i've been a clear cover client myself because i like to eat my own dog food i bought a jetty renters use oscar for health insurance like can't be chilling this stuff but i've actually gotten the point where i don't even think about it as insure tech and insurance anymore it's sort of like fit place time and hopefully everyone's using technology well yeah But I do think you're right, though, to look at the reinsure and the claim side and kind of the full spectrum, you know, of what you're offering.

Speaker 9 offering yeah one of my so in in personal lines and again this is all um

Speaker 9 what are you willing to tolerate for what exchange right or you know for what what what's the the value prop and i look at in personal lines if you're primarily third-party claims adjusters um you know independent claims adjusters and and there's that level of disconnect I feel more comfortable with it.

Speaker 9 Personal lines, claims adjusting is far more standardized. And you have companies like Snapsheet, which make it very standardized.
And so I feel more comfortable there.

Speaker 9 But in commercial lines, I still would love to see a large portion of the claims adjusters be familiar or contracted to that carrier.

Speaker 9 Nothing against independent claims adjusters, if there's any listening. I'm sure there's not a lot.
But

Speaker 9 I will say that in the situations that I've had, both in this instance of my career and in past,

Speaker 9 independent claims adjusters are oftentimes, from my perspective,

Speaker 9 involved in claims that get out of hand. And it's just a lot of times they're overburdened.
It's not even like they're trying to do a bad job. That's not a knock on them as professionals.

Speaker 9 But a lot of times they get thrown different claims for different lines of business from four different companies.

Speaker 9 And now you just, you can't, you're never going to get as good of experience as all I do is adjust this company. And I know the products inside and out.
I know the forms inside and out.

Speaker 9 So that's one of the things I try to look at. And again, it means more to me on commercial than personal.

Speaker 10 Yeah, no, that's fair. And, you know, to be honest, I've been on the sales side a lot.
I've had a few personal lines losses. Luckily, most of them have gone a good direction.

Speaker 10 You know, I haven't seen it. You know, I mean, I just, my book's small, book's growing.
And

Speaker 10 no, it makes sense to me. The other thing I was going to say is the D to C is kind of rough.

Speaker 10 You can have a third-party adjuster, whatever else, but you want to have have that broker relationship, not to be biased, you know, kind of coach people through it a little bit.

Speaker 9 You can be biased on this show.

Speaker 10 Yeah. You know, I just think you still have a spot just because, you know, we're emotional beings.
You know, we're not totally rational when, you know, the shit hits the fan. You want a relationship.

Speaker 10 You know, you want somebody who's been there since before the fallout or whatever you're working on and can help you navigate, get back quick, you know.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I was talking to an agent buddy of mine today, and he said,

Speaker 9 he said he, he, what he, he was explaining his business model, and I'm an enormous fan of it and i don't want to blow up his spot for a couple different reasons so i'm not going to name him but um somebody i think a lot of listeners in the show would probably know if i said his name um

Speaker 9 and he was describing his model which he described as and now that i'm about to bring it up i'm going to get it slightly wrong but you'll get the gist which was essentially different people same process every customer right Every customer is going to, their relationship is to the process, not to the person.

Speaker 9 And his point was, I want to be flexible with my team, both from a sales and from a service perspective, to know that you're going to call and you don't need to get Brett, right?

Speaker 9 Because Brett doesn't do car changes as well as John and the service team does car changes, right? The processes, Brett is your problem solver and your program builder.

Speaker 9 And then once that program is built, sold, and you're with our agency, now John or John and one of his peers, Sally and Tammy and Timmy and Tommy, you know, they handle service and, you know, that.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 the relationship is to the process, to the fact that you know there's someone there and it is a human.

Speaker 9 It may be different people, but the process is what you believe in because that's what helps serve you the best. And

Speaker 9 he was much better in the way that he explained it. So I'm doing disjustice.
If he listens, he'll know and he'll probably be laughing because I'm butchering the way he said it.

Speaker 9 But I said, that is what we're doing at Rogan.

Speaker 9 I hadn't really positioned it that way, but it is what I, it is a version of the traditional relationship that I believe works very well for higher volume and or more digitally oriented agencies.

Speaker 9 And I certainly believe that it is one of the models that sets you up for success in the future.

Speaker 10 Yeah, no, it's a. Adam Smith differentiation of labor and reminds of like the founder, you know, McDonald's set himself up to be hyper-efficient.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 I'll plug, you know, a little company to help out working with Fineo that's coming to the States from Canada. They're working on some really cool built-in automation.

Speaker 10 It's not there yet, but to have recommended good, better, best to have these service policies, but they still believe like the ball's got to be in the agent's court.

Speaker 10 You know, you're enabling the producer to use tech to better serve the client. So, you know, I definitely see a hybrid future.
Yeah, I don't see us going anywhere.

Speaker 9 No, I don't, I don't either. I think, I think the days of

Speaker 10 the

Speaker 9 chest thumping, you know, and I always, I give, I give Crothers a hard time for this all the time, but like, you know, he, he, he is training the next generation of these men and women,

Speaker 9 you know, the chest thumping middle market producers. I think that

Speaker 9 I think they'll still always exist.

Speaker 9 I don't think that

Speaker 9 you, I think that that they're, I think that middle market commercial is the last bastion of that ideal, though, in my opinion. I think that, you know, you, you, you,

Speaker 9 I think what a producer is, what an insurance professional is today is going to drastically change. I think for a long time, it's been, when you think insurance professional, you think producer.

Speaker 9 And I will tell you, one of the issues, and I, you know, Matt, Matt Jaggard, who I just hired to our team.

Speaker 10 Oh, congrats, by the way. Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 9 Thank you. He's, he's been awesome and fits has fit in amazingly with our team and him and Sarah.
I feel, I feel very blessed. I have to, I've been able to bring two people on.

Speaker 9 I feel incredibly confident in and have really,

Speaker 9 and Sidney Rowe can attest to this, they've taken to my more hands-off leadership style very well.

Speaker 9 And

Speaker 9 it's been good.

Speaker 9 But my point in saying that is

Speaker 9 in that process of hiring, I realized that

Speaker 9 what I was hiring for, and what a traditional producer is seen as are not the same thing. And that

Speaker 9 I think the idea of an insurance professional is drastically changing. More technologist, more marketer, you know, like

Speaker 9 more of a renaissance person than a I sell policies. You know what I mean? Like if that makes sense.

Speaker 10 No, you're 100% correct. So when the pandemic hit, I used to do something called Broker Brews.
We'd do a digital one. And then I did one with some like leader buddies for InsurTech.

Speaker 10 And then I did one with like young guns. We would do these Zooms, right? And sent Zoom fatigue.
So I started messing around with the podcast.

Speaker 10 I had fun with it, but was a little all over the place, insured some startups last year, not a lot of premium, a lot of work.

Speaker 10 And I realized between Fineo and everything else going on, I couldn't really nurture my own pipeline as much as I should. So I doubled down on the auto space with my buddy Ed, who loves it.

Speaker 10 You know, he ran a big marine agency for a number of years, but loves classic autos.

Speaker 10 And it's been phenomenal helping him build like an auto-focused podcast, helping him market, help him cold call a little bit to dealerships, making friends there, selling a couple of garages.

Speaker 10 But he's passionate about classic cars the auto industry and we're selling insurance to it we're making podcasts we're making youtube videos and we can sell product it's perfect you know i'm thrilled to see him just building a brand and join it and we're transacting business it's perfect you know that renaissance man kind of project like you're saying yeah i've always looked for allies you know what i mean like i like playing sports i joke i want to be the seventh best guy on the basketball court you know that's terrible when you're 10th and if you're the first best it's it's boring you know like i like hunting with people you know even i know your wife's a badass.

Speaker 10 My wife's in PT school, you know, she's getting doctorate. Like I'm looking for people are going to challenge me.
We can grow and win together.

Speaker 10 You know, I'm not looking for people to pat me on the butt. I'm too nice to everyone.
So everyone's too nice to me. I need people who are going to challenge me and help me kind of grow and go forward.

Speaker 10 Yeah. I love it.

Speaker 9 I'm the exact same way. I.
I get bored with people who just tell me I'm doing things right very quickly. I would not have married the woman that I married.
if that was what I was looking for.

Speaker 9 And I don't mean that in a negative way. That comes off very negative.

Speaker 9 I mean, she, she's a high performer performer and she expects me to be a high performer along with her and and that's a good thing and i uh i'm with you i i i also thrive in a team environment um

Speaker 9 i uh you know i i recently took on uh two two partners in my business who will remain anonymous for now um

Speaker 9 small small but i needed some people who are more than just emotionally invested in rogue who could be sounding boards and that I could have on speed dial.

Speaker 9 And I didn't just want to pay a consultant as much as there are some amazing consultants in our space that I don't mean that to come off negative to anyone who does consulting.

Speaker 9 I needed some, I personally needed something more, someone who was kind of, you know, very committed. And just having those two people

Speaker 9 just allow. allowed me to talk through

Speaker 9 different things. And it has taken me from, I will say,

Speaker 9 a foggy vision of what i wanted to rogue to be to now we have a laser focused vision on who we are what we're going to be how we're going to attack the market and then that has allowed me to bring in sarah and matt who who've amplified and it's funny and and and i i i want to uh after you answer this question i would like you to level set for everyone all the things you actually do because that's uh we never got to that part but uh um,

Speaker 9 you know, I think,

Speaker 9 why do you think it is like, what do you think that is about having a team? Because there are people who want to be solo, right?

Speaker 9 Like, what do you think it is that having a team brings out in you that allows you to be a better version of yourself?

Speaker 10 I'm one of three brothers.

Speaker 10 You know, I'm in the middle, always grew up playing sports, actually, naturally good long distance runner, but I always joke if God was like, you can be good at, you know, be a quarterback or shooting guard.

Speaker 10 You know, like, I had somebody tell me one time that means I'm egotistical. I was like,

Speaker 10 I don't know. Um, it's just fun.
I don't know. Success on our own, like, it's more fun seeing the bank account go up when your spouse is there, too.
You'd be like, Wow, that's pretty cool.

Speaker 10 You know, this is going up, not that it goes up that often. Um,

Speaker 10 so I guess, yeah, for background, um, probably most relevant was doing office moving sales.

Speaker 10 And a friend who's the same age, but I would say a little bit more mature, a little bit smarter, was like, Hey, you should check out insurance, good industry.

Speaker 10 So, I got my PNC license to try to see where leases were going to go or building purchases, but as as a way to put my toe in the water, I did that for like three years while moving companies.

Speaker 10 And then I thought my dad was going to buy it when the writing was on the wall that he wasn't going to buy the moving company. He was always scratch call for a commission salesman.
Great salesman.

Speaker 10 I got to work with him for six years. My older brother is badass.
Like,

Speaker 10 you know, any positive traits I have selling with him, you know, I worked at a church for three years, a lot of good, you know, influence.

Speaker 10 But anyways, personal lines for a year with the ability networking commercial. Want to kind of mess with my paycheck at the end of the year.
Small business, weird things happen.

Speaker 10 you know um six months that what i thought was insurtech was kind of leads company goofy experience got recruited something else goofy experience for three months was like screw it i'm gonna go out of my own uh go back to restaurants bartend that was like three and a half years ago um

Speaker 10 didn't know what i didn't know uh was on my own for six months sold some personal lines didn't realize how sticky the commercial relationships were how hard it is to move that paper what a long road that is so hopped at my buddy's benefit shop for a year and a half did p and c there.

Speaker 10 Great place to cut my teeth. You know, he's corporately trained, you know, really knows his stuff.
Year ago, got back out on my own, year and change.

Speaker 10 And I've got a business partner, Ed, who's 57, who's ran a national marine agency before, you know, 20 employees, six locations.

Speaker 10 Similar, you know, he lost a job two years before, had a goofy stint. I was like, dude, you're too knowledgeable.
Like, this needs to be like your masterclass.

Speaker 10 You know, at the time he's like 55, 56, we started talking. I was like, make a good 10 years.
Let's build something worthwhile.

Speaker 10 You know, and we have all my tech goofiness versus his ability to actually run a company and make sure we're making money, which apparently is important. Found out later.

Speaker 9 That's what everyone says.

Speaker 10 Apparently, yeah, that's the rumor.

Speaker 10 So luckily through, you know, insurance nerds, Lamperelli, you know, being friends with guys like yourself, you know, my buddies up in Canada, you know, Fineo kind of heard of me, knew of me, and I was independent.

Speaker 10 So I was like, yeah, I can get you licensed. I don't, I don't know life insurance as well as I should, but I'm licensed.
Like, how can I help?

Speaker 10 So we started working together about about two and a half years ago. Really cool relationship going from, you know, small, goofy business to hanging out around a VC-backed startup.

Speaker 10 It was like trying to row a canoe to hopping on a little battleship, you know, and like, it's been fun. And like, work really closely with one of the co-founders, Donald.
He's a great businessman.

Speaker 10 Get to learn from him. So.
they're working hand in hand. You know, Blake lets us use his address to start.
We end up getting our own little address. So that's all growing together.

Speaker 10 When Ed and I get going, you know, a year and change ago, he's like, hey, I have this programmer friend with a lending CRM. Would you want to try to build the AMS? I was like, dude, you're nuts.

Speaker 10 Like, we're trying the hardest thing in the world to get like a scratch agency going. And do you want to build like a CRM AMS? I'm like, you're out of your mind.
But like, he had been open to me.

Speaker 10 So I'm like, okay, sure.

Speaker 10 You know, starts off as this little quiet project.

Speaker 10 I let Allie and Donald know. I'm like, hey, by the way, this is random.
I swear I didn't mean to get into something else.

Speaker 10 Just want to let you know before this goes out in the public, like, no problem. I was like, I'm saving life for us on there.

Speaker 10 We've built, and I'll show it to you afterwards, but a really cool light CRM. You could dump in a CSV file, move them over to prospects, active, inactive, load up documents.
There's something else.

Speaker 10 It's not public yet. I'll tell you about later.
You close that business. It can drop right into the agency management side of the house.
The point isn't be cost effective, but it is cost effective.

Speaker 10 We're building it for the small guys, the one-to-two man agencies, you know, want to help out marine, want to help aviation, you know, kind of the unloved little corners of our industry. Yeah.

Speaker 10 So just a happy accident. And we're eating our own dog food.
We have, you know, 60-ish clients there ourselves, 60% probably personal lines, probably 30% commercial, 10% life.

Speaker 10 We hit it for all verticals because that's kind of rare. But this bootstrap little thing, there's four of us out of Southern California working on it.
Just real happy accident.

Speaker 10 But yeah, so the three main horses are the brokerage, which I'm lucky that Ed's living in and running. And I just try to help out with prospecting and kind of back end.

Speaker 10 The CRM AMS, which is actually, you know, somebody else's company that we're all partnering to build.

Speaker 10 And then, you know, Fineo is the big venture-backed startup that I've been lucky to, you know, they've gotten me out to Toronto twice, you know, just really cool.

Speaker 10 And you know what's like when you're out there trying to build, like you said, it's kind of lonely.

Speaker 10 So having the Fineo team while working on my own stuff has been a nice blend of like community thought building and then also my own shingle. So I don't want to sound full of shit.

Speaker 10 Like I don't, you know, like I want to sell business.

Speaker 10 I want to be in in the paperwork i don't want to pretend i've done more than i have but i'm working on insurance every day i have lists of things i need to do right here you know so try to add some authenticity to work with the startups which i've enjoyed but dude thanks for helping me get a jumpstart you know with the early podcast just giving perspective to all this it's fun to be on here you know like yeah well it was what was funny was we we communicate so often in the digital space that it like hit me one day i was like i've never had bread on a show so i then i like immediately stopped what i was was doing.

Speaker 9 I was like, yo, you got to just come on the show.

Speaker 10 And you're like, oh, yeah, well, you know, I was like, no, no, just

Speaker 9 send a time. Just come on.
And you can come on again if you got something else. But like, it was, it was weird to me that, that you hadn't been on.
And, you know, and

Speaker 9 if this is, this is probably not a surprise to our regular listeners, but there is no formal invite process for the Ryan Hanley show. It is.
I just kind of like, oh, that person would be fun.

Speaker 10 Or, oh, I haven't talked to them in a while.

Speaker 9 Or someone will re people reach out. There's like a, there's just no formal process.

Speaker 10 I appreciate though. I kind of feel like, you know, I'll call it like business big brother or something.
But it was fun when I ran into the ITC too. We got to meet in person.
That's always cool.

Speaker 10 Yeah, that was cool. Remember, Christopher Franklin be like, Brett Fulmer is a lot bigger than you'd think, just physically.

Speaker 10 That's right. Yeah.
No, but it's funny. That feels like a lifetime ago, too.
That's probably like 20 years ago.

Speaker 10 Right. So was that three years ago? I just lost a job like three months before, went out there, had a broker bruise the night before ITC, and then just drove back.

Speaker 10 I spent $60 on my hotel room, $180 on the happy hour, drove out and drove back.

Speaker 10 Yeah, no, it's fun hacking it together. But yeah, dude, you were open.
I mean, it's, it's funny to say it this way.

Speaker 10 Like, you've been known, you've been around a long time, and I felt very considered even before I started being on the scene more, you know. So, thanks for being down to earth.
Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 9 as much as I've actually done anything in what you just said,

Speaker 9 thank you. I appreciate it.

Speaker 10 Yeah, no,

Speaker 9 it's funny. I get,

Speaker 9 I, I,

Speaker 10 you know,

Speaker 9 you know, you're, you're describing where you are, right? You have this agency. You also have two startups that you're a part of.

Speaker 9 And I think for a lot of people listening, that for some people listening, they may be nodding their head and going, oh, yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 9 And for other people, they're going, geez, what is wrong with these guys? Why don't they just focus on one thing?

Speaker 9 I will say, because I've thought about this a lot, right? Because even doing this podcast, I'm doing a podcast.

Speaker 9 It's one o'clock in the afternoon on a, on a Thursday, and the day that we're recording it, you know, whenever you're listening to it, it'll be later. But, um,

Speaker 9 and there's a lot of people that if they were my

Speaker 9 life coach, they would say, why are you doing that? Like, don't do that.

Speaker 9 Like, you're, you're, you should be quoting policies or building automations or doing any other number of things to rogue that aren't this.

Speaker 9 And then I also, like I said, I'm have maybe, it's probably half a dozen companies that I'm advising for. And then

Speaker 9 the number of other things that I do during a week that aren't just rogue would would probably make a lot of agency owners want to barf. That being said,

Speaker 9 you know, I don't know, you know,

Speaker 9 I think you could probably relate to this. And I'm just interested in your perspective.
You know, I go back and forth. Like, I don't know how to be any other way.

Speaker 9 Like, I see projects that I want to be involved in that I think are interesting, whether they're interesting for rogue or not, right?

Speaker 9 There's projects that I'm involved in that I give feedback on and attend regular phone calls for to, you know, as an advisor. They'll never be, I mean, they're all insurance.

Speaker 9 Everything I do is insurance industry. They'll never be, they'll never, I'll never use the product.
Not, not just, it just doesn't fit what I'm doing.

Speaker 9 Not, not that I think it's a bad, obviously, I don't think it's a bad product. I'm advising them.
And I just think that I don't know how to be any other way.

Speaker 9 I I just, I don't know how to, how do you look at something that looks interesting and go, meh, nah, I don't know.

Speaker 10 I'm with you. I've thought about a few different ways.

Speaker 10 I tend to try to think like a VC and not literally back horses that overlap. They can kind of like go up next to each other.

Speaker 10 Like Fineo, for instance, is kind of like a cover wallet, but for a life financial planning insurance, the CRM AMS can plug into Fineo, and then I could use both as an agency.

Speaker 10 And I can sell through Fineo's pipes. I can recruit to Fineo.

Speaker 10 I think it is important to touch projects, highlight projects that you don't have any equity in, like, you know, clear cover that you don't have skin in the game on, because I think it provides an air of authenticity.

Speaker 10 I think that there's a network effect too, that by touching these things, I can overlap.

Speaker 10 Like, I actually hang out, and I haven't lately, because I'm not trying to ensure startups right now, just because they're too all over the place. So, I'm going to try to work on a classic industry.

Speaker 10 But I would hang in a fintech slack.

Speaker 10 You know, I actually don't pay that much attention to our industry for being around as much as i am i kind of don't care like i'm playing my game i'm trying to help the people that i'm friends with i'm trying to build business and none of my clients give a about broker brett you know none of my clients care that i'm lucky to have doors open within our industry to me i try to be as active as i can around the insurtech stuff to get doors open and i'm just trying to get the best spears as early as i can to go hunt as well as i can and i do appreciate having a business partner who's 57 who will call spade a spade and he'll hang with instructs with me.

Speaker 10 And sometimes the stuff makes sense. And sometimes he's like, that doesn't really pass the SNF test.
Like we actually need the clients to use that. How are they going to get us to clients?

Speaker 10 All the automation is great, but who's coming in the door? You know, like, so just balance. And for me, it was having a business partner who can live in the agency so I can touch the other stuff.

Speaker 10 You know, that was helpful. Yeah.

Speaker 10 You know.

Speaker 10 Yeah, try to be reasonable. I try to help my brother's cooler startup and my wife shut me down.
She's like, hey, it has to be insurance. You know,

Speaker 10 kind of funny. Yeah.
so there's a little bit of that. Um,

Speaker 10 to me, it's so random, but Fineo being on the East Coast is helpful.

Speaker 10 And then trying to build a business in the West Coast, so I can do a lot of that tech stuff in the morning, you know, and then cold call and whatever in the afternoon.

Speaker 10 Little things like that kind of line up, you know, pretty good. Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 9 I, I, I will say that, um,

Speaker 9 yeah, I keep my eyes.

Speaker 9 A big part of this podcast that I do, part of it is I just like talking to people.

Speaker 9 Part of it is, and I've said this a bunch, I feel an obligation to add as much value back to this industry that has changed my life, right?

Speaker 9 I mean, my kids live in a nice suburban home and go to a nice school because, you know, very, very much unlike me,

Speaker 9 you know, my youth, because, you know, I'm of this industry, because of my wife and her family and what this industry has brought. So I feel an obligation to give back as much as possible.

Speaker 9 And the other side of it is, like, just like you said, I think by

Speaker 9 engaging, by getting to know people, by taking a half hour on a Friday to hear someone's story,

Speaker 9 you, you, you know, and learn from them and give them some feedback and connect them to people,

Speaker 9 you're gathering intel constantly and building

Speaker 9 karma in the world. You know, you're building credits that you can exchange down the line for things that you might need, right?

Speaker 9 Hey, can you introduce me to insert this person that helps you deliver more value to your customers or whatever? And

Speaker 9 while I agree with and believe that focus

Speaker 9 is very much important,

Speaker 9 at the same time,

Speaker 9 if there's any. If there's any through thread to my own career, it's serendipity.
And that's only through constant connection and value delivery.

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Speaker 10 Yeah. Lamperelli, I feel lucky to be kind of mentored by him.
When I was in between, I lost that job doing my own thing.

Speaker 10 Him and Stephen Goldstein were really the two that were like, no, just figure it out. One way or another, just go build, help, be helpful.

Speaker 10 he would say it's about the relationships. He's like, I don't care if anybody watches or listens to, I have somebody for an hour that I really get to connect with and we're fighting the same fight.

Speaker 10 We're in the same battle, you know, like that to him was what it was all about. Yeah.
And I think, you know, being a partner in a brokerage, and

Speaker 10 to be honest, like we went 50-50 because like, that's a grown-ass man and he's a solid dude and you want to go to war together.

Speaker 10 I care about building my business. Like, I'll take a lot of pride when that thing's freaking chugging.
You know what I mean? Like, this stuff's really really cool. This stuff opens doors.

Speaker 10 But to me, that's the crown jewel I'm chasing is like, wow, you know, we figured out the mousetrap and, you know, we can deploy other people to do the same thing.

Speaker 10 You know, even candidly, the name sets itself up to once we feel like we have it, you know, we can deploy other insurance centers, you know, help other people get rolling, but we got to figure out how to make our own stuff work first.

Speaker 9 Yeah. And that's the, I'll tell you early on, one of the things that I have,

Speaker 9 one of the things that I have

Speaker 9 struggled. Now, I won't say struggled.
Struggled, struggled is, is not the right word.

Speaker 9 One of the things that is tough mentally is when you see where you want to go with your product or with your experience that you want to provide and you know who you want to be, but you don't yet have the volume or the, you know, you're just not there from a cash flow standpoint to put it in place, you know, and eating,

Speaker 9 eating the fact that you're not delivering at the level that you want to deliver

Speaker 9 yet is tough sometimes. You know what I mean? Because it's like, I know what I want Rogue to be,

Speaker 9 but we're not there yet. You know what I mean? We're not, we're not.

Speaker 9 I mean, they're, if someone were to come in and snapshot our business today, I'm sure any number of people could poke a million holes in our operation.

Speaker 10 That's the man in the ring versus the commentator, dude. And nothing's nothing's perfect.

Speaker 10 So not to piggyback to, you know, my main horse I've been hanging out with, but Fineo in Canada, watertight, plugged in, end-to-end, going into carriers, super clean, super fluid, rolling out in California first in the U.S.

Speaker 10 And, you know, the back-end connectivity is not there yet, for instance. There's a few other things that we would love to do here that they can't do here that are up in Canada.

Speaker 10 I'm still talking to people. I still have to say.

Speaker 10 This is what we got. This is today.
This is where it ends. This is where we want to go.
This is what we're planning on doing. And I think that's okay.

Speaker 10 As long as you're authentic, you know, know, as long as you're like, these are the tools we're offering. These are things we'd love to offer.
This is what we're working on. And we grow this together.

Speaker 10 We want your feedback. You know, we're regularly going to meet as a team of three of how we can make your client experience better.
This is what we got for you today.

Speaker 10 This is what we want to have for you. We appreciate being in this relationship for a lifetime.
There's a 93% retention rate. We hope to be 100%.

Speaker 10 you know, relationship. You're getting these services today, but in 10 years, I hope you're getting 10 times the services.
I think that's fine.

Speaker 10 You know, I think just the candidness, you know, plus I have a feeling whatever you're offering is going to be at or above what they're getting, anyways, or what they're getting from somebody else.

Speaker 10 So you're already starting in a good spot. It might not be your

Speaker 10 presentation, like vision casted perfection, but who cares? Nobody, nobody actually cares about us. We're critical of ourselves.
You know, we're trying to do it.

Speaker 10 They just want good, honest people to provide insurance that's going to do its job. You know, that's all.

Speaker 9 So, you know, just in general, what

Speaker 9 like as you're building this agency, right? So we're both building agencies that are fairly close in age. When did you launch?

Speaker 10 So technically three years ago and change, but then I kind of shelved my own initiatives to sort of learn at my buddies and to help Fineo. And then last March, me and Ed decided to kind of

Speaker 9 freak again?

Speaker 10 It's like 17th or something.

Speaker 9 Ah, I got you by eight days.

Speaker 10 So as peers, I...

Speaker 10 sounds like we're not in each other's minutiae you're ahead of us you know and you got three people and it's me and ed just rolling up our sleeves ourselves you know so like it's all perspective and i'm sure there's somebody out there who would love to have the relationships and the connections i have to open doors or even like the number of people i have on linkedin or instagram it's that whole like you can always look at somebody else and be jealous the the the problem where i think it's going to be hard on you is just the people you're running with but we're all playing our own game i just listened to a great book called the psychology of money and it's like

Speaker 10 You can't really pick on other people or you shouldn't really judge them because everyone's coming at this game from a different lens.

Speaker 10 You don't understand circumstances how i handle credit cards as a kid who grew up in la county kind of middle to maybe slightly lower at times to upper middle income it's gonna be different than my best friend who grew up in your balinda and their family has a third generation machine shop with 200 employees i'm gonna do stuff he thinks is dumb but as a salesman who's been like overextended times like i might have these mission critical decisions that are less than ideal but this is how i'm living um

Speaker 10 you know we're all on our own journey as long as you're challenging yourself like i'm jealous of where you're at. I'm sure somebody is jealous of me.

Speaker 10 And I'm sure somebody's jealous of the person who's jealous of me. You know, as long as we're all striving, I think we're doing fine.

Speaker 9 You know, yeah, I agree with you. I also,

Speaker 9 I am a big, big proponent of not.

Speaker 9 So, so, uh, Jordan Peterson, I've talked about him on the show before.

Speaker 10 I'm gonna, hey 12 Rules of Life. I listened to that book.
That was awesome. Yeah,

Speaker 9 his next one, Beyond Order, I'm reading right now. I just

Speaker 9 somehow building a startup doesn't lend itself to reading time. Now, I'm sure there's someone who's like, oh, I just get up earlier, but it's just tough.

Speaker 9 That being said, so I'm not as far along and beyond order as I'd like to be, but 12 Rules for Life,

Speaker 9 as much as a book has, it changed my vantage point on life.

Speaker 9 And one of the things that he says in that book is, do not compare yourself to anyone else. Compare yourself to who you were yesterday.
So are you better today than you were the day before? Like just

Speaker 9 win this day. Just be better today than you were yesterday.
Don't worry about anyone else. And I think that's

Speaker 9 while at face value. It's easier than done.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Yeah. I think it's powerful.
I think it's easier said than done. I think it also can be brushed off as trite.

Speaker 9 But I think if you let it sink in and use it as a construct, it's very, very important. And the reason for that is,

Speaker 9 I'll use an example. So I pay for.
It's the second most expensive thing that I pay for in my agency on a month to month basis, Donna for agents, which is a analytics platform.

Speaker 9 It's way more than that. It's the balls.
I kind of love it.

Speaker 9 In full transparency, they are also a sponsor, but I pay out of pocket for it. So it's not a, I don't get it for free.
I pay for it.

Speaker 9 And if you were to look at my agency, you would say, you don't need that. And you don't.
I don't need it to be successful. It does, it does not today

Speaker 9 make me more money than yesterday.

Speaker 9 Now, if i was in this you know five years from now i know it will so that's so so i am making an investment and building into the fabric and culture of my agency analytics and data because i believe so strongly and what they will do for my agency and i don't want to wait

Speaker 9 three years and then try to backdoor it in. I'm going to make it part of the core of who we are.
We're going to analyze what's happening.

Speaker 9 We're going to think through our data and our clients and how we can service them better and where gaps are and we're gonna find them and that's gonna be part of who we are not something not a nice to have down the road and i think that's a decision that some agency owners would make some wouldn't make i've decided to make that decision and i think that if there are people who go oh you know you get to have that i'm like not get to have i pay for that like that's something like i write the check every month for that thing and just like everything else no one likes to see their credit card go bing, you know, you just paid, you know, this amount for this thing.

Speaker 9 And you're like, oh,

Speaker 9 you know, but, but the point is

Speaker 9 that I could say that to you and you can go, that's great. Don't eat it.
Right. And that has to, we have to be okay with that, right? I think, I think that's the thing to your point about

Speaker 9 jealousy or comparing ourselves to others. I look at some of some of the people that that are, that I aspire to be like,

Speaker 9 like David Carruthers, right? I talk about him all the time in the show. The dude is just a killer of a salesman, just has it, thinks about it in a different way.

Speaker 9 The levels of, you know, the levels that he thinks about while selling in terms of connecting and connecting different ideas and examples and stories. I just don't think that way.
I just don't. And,

Speaker 9 you know, I think you, I could be jealous of that. or I could just be happy to know him, learn what I can, and, and be aspirational.

Speaker 9 And it's, it's really difficult, I think, because there are times when like he'll post something. I mean, I'm just like anybody else, right?

Speaker 9 He'll post something about just writing a $50,000 account and he's using it as an educational thing. And in my mind, I'm like, you son of a bitch, I'd die for a $50,000 revenue.

Speaker 10 Are you kidding me?

Speaker 9 Take my pinky finger right now. You can have it, you know? So it's like, it's just tough things.
You know, these are the things that we have to deal with emotionally.

Speaker 10 I kind of want to backtrack to your Donna for agents. I'm a big fan of like plan the work, work the plan, and begin with the end of mind.

Speaker 10 You know, it's sort of like if you're framing up a house and you knew you wanted a second story, like you would put to the stairs and go and plumbing, you know where you want to go, man.

Speaker 10 I don't fault that at all. I think it's smart.
Um, I don't, and this is funny to say, I don't feel like naturally the best salesman in the world. I get along with people.

Speaker 10 You know, when I said I was getting to sales, my brother's like, You're the nicest guy in the world, but you're a bulldog. He's like, You'll be fine.

Speaker 10 So, he was confident, but I'm self-conscious of my own, you know, kill mentality or whatever. But I looked at sales as the doorstep to small small business.

Speaker 10 I looked at small business as the ability to be independent. And I'm always chasing kind of independence, libertarian, whatever else.

Speaker 10 So that's why I think I got into sales was more for the potential of fiscal-related freedom, not even like to be rich, but to just kind of control your own time, energy, be a part of what you want to be a part of.

Speaker 10 I don't know. My little brother's a better salesman than I am.
He's great. He sells cars, you know, works at Dodge dealership.
He crushes it.

Speaker 9 How come he's not working for the agency?

Speaker 10 We fight too much. We can't even get off a phone call without yelling at each other half the time.

Speaker 9 Can't make that car money.

Speaker 10 Dude, we were, dude, he made, they make good money. Don't sleep on a nice Dodge Chrysler Jeep dealership.

Speaker 10 So funny. We're 21 months apart.
I would joke that like seven years apiece, three years of war growing up. He's still the only person to ever punch me in the face.

Speaker 10 I had two black eyes and a bloody nose.

Speaker 10 He's a shot putter, lineman, football player,

Speaker 10 which I actually, this is kind of twisted, but as a brother, I almost appreciate getting punched in the face once. So you can do it.
You're like, oh, okay, that wasn't that bad. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Rest of your life. You kind of have that in back pocket.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 I don't know. Yeah, dude.
I'm, I am, I'm dyslexic. I talk about that more now.
I think I was more self-conscious about talking about it before.

Speaker 10 I am very good at connecting the dots, putting things together, you know, seeing around corners a little bit.

Speaker 10 but I have other shortcomings, you know, and I play with the skill set that I have and I do my best, you know, and just keep showing up. You know, I think that's the other part of this game.

Speaker 9 Yeah. I, I, um,

Speaker 9 I, I was blessed to pick up pretty early in my career.

Speaker 9 And I don't know where I got this from exactly, probably just a string of decent managers and, and, and leaders and different businesses that I was in, where, um, the concept of, you know,

Speaker 9 know, know what you're good at and just do not get rid of your ego and everything else, right?

Speaker 10 Just know this, like, that might be the baseball player in you because baseball players are very narrow, you know, like could be, you know, I, I, I, I don't know.

Speaker 9 I don't know, I don't know exactly what it was, but I've just always operated from a mentality of if I'm not good at something, I want someone else to do it. And I have standards and I have

Speaker 9 a belief structure on quality. And that doesn't mean, because I think, I think a common, a common

Speaker 9 misconception in our space is that like if an agency owner has someone else do that thing, whatever that thing is, that somehow they're less than. Oh, you don't do that.

Speaker 9 Like, I'll be honest with you, if I never wet, if I never sold another insurance policy the rest of my life, I'd be perfectly happy.

Speaker 9 It's something I do today. I do it less because Matt is part of the team

Speaker 9 who I talked about. Hopefully in the near future, I can hire another salesperson because we have enough volume.
And then maybe I can only, then I'll only sell direct referrals.

Speaker 9 And then hopefully I'll never, ever, ever, ever have to sell another policy. And I'll be honest with you, I will, that will be a huge win in my book.
Yeah.

Speaker 10 Well, and the thing is, you have knocked the doors. You have done the personal sales.
You've done the one-to-one sales.

Speaker 10 I think you need to be, as a leader, I think you, you can't be perfect at everything, but I think you got to touch the org. top to bottom.

Speaker 10 I think it's important to know the guys at the bottom of the org. And I've learned a lot of that stuff from my best friend, Mike, like their machine shop.
He knows the guys at the bottom.

Speaker 10 He's worked the machines. He's swept the floors.

Speaker 10 Can't, I mean, I'm still making cold calls for finayota agents one-to-one i'm still calling garages and dealerships for you know newport beach insurance center i'm literally using the crm ams that we built to try to sell business to and i do it just because that's where we are today and i'm with you at some point i'm gonna have to step back um

Speaker 10 but you've done those things that allow you to lead and understand what other people are doing you know as long as you're as long as you can wrap yourself around what you're asking people to do yeah ideally you want smarter more talented more specialized people to be doing things than you are you know that's how you build a team.

Speaker 10 That's how you work.

Speaker 9 I think ideally, because that's your mindset and my mindset, and it's one of the blessings I think of working in a couple of different technology startups, because I do think it's very much the culture of technology startups is

Speaker 9 cohesively work a team of specialists cohesively working together at pace, right? I think that's a big part of the culture of these and transferred into the insurance industry.

Speaker 9 I think it's an enormous competitive advantage. I do not think it is as culturally accepted in our space as maybe you and I would think that it is.
That's my perspective.

Speaker 10 I could be wrong. I just.

Speaker 10 Well, I think there's two things at play.

Speaker 10 I heard the reason why SF sort of took off over Boston, because for a while, it seemed like tech-wise they were similar, was you have a very flat paradigm on the West Coast.

Speaker 10 Everyone has a voice, everyone's contributing, growing, but the East is a little bit more hierarchical because it's been around longer.

Speaker 10 And I think in our industry, when you get to those structures that have been in place, for good reason, lethargy is also like a projective measure.

Speaker 10 If you have a big thing, you don't want to pivot real quick and fall off a cliff. If things are working, let them keep working.

Speaker 10 I think startups and I think scratch agencies are trying to do the impossible. You know, they're getting funding to try to build a flywheel to grow past the incumbent.
So I think when.

Speaker 10 When shit's crazy, you know, Allie from Fineo opened to what I have to say. Donald opened to what I have to say.
It's all hands on deck. It's like, we're trying to do the impossible.

Speaker 10 Whoever can bail water, whoever can help, by all means, get in here. Let's help us do this shit.

Speaker 10 But I can get where, you know, if an agency's set up, if there's a structure in place you want to maintain, if you're paying the bills, if you've hit your number, I think you talked about that with Meg Whitman.

Speaker 10 You kind of check out a little, you know, and I think you and I both. are hungry.
I like the game. To me, I broke my hand when I was 30.

Speaker 10 I used to play in like three men's leagues a week, my 20s, basketball. I love basketball.
But I'm lucky that like startups and sales have kind of of taken over my sports itch.

Speaker 10 I feel like this is where I compete. Like I run a lot, but this is where I like feel like I win and I lose and I feel lucky to gain some ground.
And

Speaker 10 Ed's never sold before. It is so freaking cool.
He's taking deals soup to nuts, you know, and it's like so freaking cool, you know, and we're just winning together, competing together.

Speaker 10 I had a carrier call for Fineo the other day that went really well. I was floored, you know, like to me, that felt levels beyond, you know, what I'm expecting to do.

Speaker 10 You know, i was i was really jazzed you know no i do yeah i i do i think um

Speaker 9 it's funny man i think i feel and i think we share i think we share this because in in many regards i think our our paths and and what we do on a day-to-day basis are are are fairly similar um in so much as you know to be able to touch as many things to be able to have as many conversations to be able to say if someone calls or emails or texts and i get a lot of them and and i don't ever tell anyone no,

Speaker 9 you know, sometimes I just can't help people.

Speaker 10 I can attest to that from when I haven't been as known. You know, I mean, you were still open, dude.
Appreciate it.

Speaker 9 You just, I, I'll be honest with you. I get as much enthusiasm.
I had a call with a prospect

Speaker 9 on Friday of last week. If that deal closes, it literally changes the, it levels us up.
It's a, you know,

Speaker 9 we go from, we go, we, we jump in one of, you know, Mario jumps in one of those things that takes him from level two to level eight, you know, and, um,

Speaker 9 and, and that was awesome. Felt jacked, jacked up, you know, rolled into Duke's baseball game, like, you know, flying high.
It was awesome.

Speaker 9 And then, you know, that weekend, I got a text from a guy who said, Hey, I, but I, you know, you had a problem. And not a problem, but he had a, you know, he was trying to solve a problem.

Speaker 9 And I just said, hey, I'm going to send you an email right now and connect you to this person. They'll be able to help you.
And I did that.

Speaker 9 And I felt just as jacked up about connecting i'll never make a dollar it means it it it'll never you know it's it was not nothing about finances it was nothing about no one will ever i'll never say who what the thing was or what it was other than the situation and it was just that i felt just as much energy out of that and i was like i feel

Speaker 9 um when i first got into the industry and this is what i'll say on this and um

Speaker 9 you know is that when i first got into this industry and this this isn't ubiquitous so so please don't anyone who's been around for a long time take this negatively.

Speaker 9 But there was much more of a general sense of stay in your space. Don't share.
People will steal from you. They'll steal your producers.
They'll steal your ideas. They'll steal your clients.

Speaker 9 When I first started talking about digital marketing, people would ask me, should we put our carriers on our website? Because we don't want our.

Speaker 9 We don't want our competitors to know what carriers we have. I mean, today, that concept, I think, to the average 45 and under

Speaker 9 insurance professional is bonkers, right? I mean, we, it completely bonkers, but just a decade ago, you did not do that. You didn't, because you didn't tell anyone what carriers you have.

Speaker 9 And I love today that we're in this space where we're so open, so willing to share.

Speaker 9 You have agents who would have, who a decade ago would have been thought as competitors sitting on the same advisory boards, the same state association boards, starting, you know, JVs with each other to attack certain markets.

Speaker 9 I mean, it's just, it's so, it's such a fantastic time to be in our space.

Speaker 9 It's just fun.

Speaker 10 Not to be too like talking heady. I got lucky that too, a guy when I was a youth pass from 18 to 21 was pretty like reflective, I guess, kind of made us consider a lot of stuff.

Speaker 10 But you compare the internet to the printing press, you know, we went from competing with our neighbor because it was analog and there was like a main street to I think today you want to have that main street look.

Speaker 10 You want to build your company almost in a boring way like a grandpa would trust, but you want the digital reach. You know, so I think we just, the world changed.

Speaker 10 You know, we went from competing with our neighbor to realizing, yeah, we can go as far as fast as we want to go, you know, and like, I think it's cool, man. I'm with you.

Speaker 10 I definitely like the blue ocean mentality. To go back to Kyle Nakasuchi, which I feel like I'm messing that up.
I've heard the Sigo guys say really nice things about him.

Speaker 10 I've heard Loop Insurance say really nice things about him. Technically, these should be his competitors.
But I think that abundance mindset, you know, same thing.

Speaker 10 Like, there's a joke that Napoleon would only,

Speaker 10 you know, get generals that consider themselves lucky. Cause if you think you're lucky, you stay open, you know, and you find a, you find a, an opportunity, you know, you have a plan.

Speaker 10 No, it's fun, man. I love the next cohort, you know, and I feel lucky to be a part of it.
I, you know, I sold copiers. I work constructions.
I sold office moves for six years.

Speaker 10 This industry is awesome. I mean, compared to having to manage a crew and do collections and whatever else, like we're lucky.
Our paperwork sucks. It can be stressful.

Speaker 10 But at the end of the day, we we got an annuity. We're doing something that you can make a lot of money at, and you're generally doing good for people.
That's freaking cool.

Speaker 10 And I think what you're saying about that guy handing the thing off properly, we just want loose ends to be taken care of. We want people to have good insurance products.

Speaker 10 Doesn't really matter if it goes to the rest or somebody else.

Speaker 10 There's really like a farmer kind of mentality, I think, to insurance as opposed to maybe commercial real estate, you know, where they're competing with each other for the same building. Yeah.

Speaker 10 In the back of our mind, we just want people to be covered. You know, we just want good paper to be out there.
You know, Yeah. I think you're right.
I think you're right, man.

Speaker 9 Well, we touched on a lot of topics in an hour. I can't believe it's already been an hour.
It feels like it's been about 10 minutes. This is tremendous.

Speaker 9 And I got a few things I want to talk to you about offline. So let's.
So if people want to get at you, they want to learn more about what you have going on. Great follow on Twitter for sure.

Speaker 10 You know, where, where can people, where can people get a hold of you? Yeah. So LinkedIn, I actually think it's backslash broker Brett.

Speaker 10 And I want to say it's broker underscore Brett on twitter too um b-r-e-t-t at brokerbrett.com is probably the best one i use it kind of like a little hub site but yeah broker underscore brett on twitter um yeah i would not pretend to have anything figured out but happy to share what i'm up to what i'm learning you know as i go and if you google uh

Speaker 10 finayo yeah f-i-n-a-e-o or capital ims yeah capta uh i ms

Speaker 10 yeah it's a fun one yeah we'll cheat those in the show notes um

Speaker 10 great down-to-earth people on both projects, and I feel very fortunate to be just helping build stuff while building an agency. Yeah.

Speaker 9 Awesome, man. Well, I'm very glad that we finally got you on the show.

Speaker 9 I almost feel bad that it has taken so long.

Speaker 9 But I'm, you know, I mean this with the most sincerity.

Speaker 9 I'm, I'm glad that there are, are people out there like you who are so willing to to spread themselves out because I know how stressful that can be, but, but in an effort to help improve and provide value and just share ideas.

Speaker 9 I mean,

Speaker 9 that's how we all grow: the intermingling of people on different organizations cross-pollinating ideas. And I think that you're a big part of that.
And I'm just happy to have you, man.

Speaker 9 So thanks for being here.

Speaker 10 Thanks, man. Likewise, thanks for going through the wall first.

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