RHS 085 - Preston Diamond on Worker’s Comp and Using Language Your Clients Can Understand

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Speaker 6 In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

Speaker 5 Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.

Speaker 5 Today we have the one, the only Preston Diamond, founder of the Work Comp Institute, educating insurance professionals around the country on everything workers comp. They give the

Speaker 5 Workers' Comp Insurance Advisor designation and master

Speaker 5 masters in work comp designation as well and Preston has forgotten more things about workers comp selling insurance handling customers than most of us will ever know in three lifetimes and but that's not necessarily why I wanted to have Preston on the show although his expertise in the insurance world is undeniable and his reputation and just you know

Speaker 5 what I why I wanted to have Preston on the show is one, I just don't see him on many shows, and I wanted to have a chance to talk to him, as well as

Speaker 5 Preston has this ability to put insurance into terms that, you know, kind of the non-insurance folk can understand.

Speaker 5 And I think that's a superpower. So often we get caught in our,

Speaker 5 you know, using our own language that it's an enormous turn off to our customers. It's actually one of the things that I pride myself on.

Speaker 5 And as much as I'm not an incredible insurance salesman, I do think that one of the things I've been able to develop over the years is an ability to boil what we do down into language that people can understand and it is relatable.

Speaker 5 And Preston is a master at that. So anytime I have a chance to talk to someone who is, you know, light years ahead of me in a skill that I want to continue to develop,

Speaker 5 it's a huge win. And I think you're going to love this conversation.
There are a few technical issues in the middle, so you'll hear what feels like a couple jumps.

Speaker 5 Those are just where I've spliced where his internet went down. So, just, you know, I hope you'll look past that.

Speaker 5 It's nothing major, but if it seems like there's a weird moment, that's what's happening.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 in general,

Speaker 5 if you're interested in digging deep into the real nitty-gritty of comp,

Speaker 5 the Work Comp Institute is a great place to get that education. I know a lot of people who are part of it.
And

Speaker 5 before we get to Preston, I want to give a big shout out to today's sponsor, and that is Donna.

Speaker 5 Donna for Agents by Arius Analytics.

Speaker 5 Donna is starting to take over the independent agency ecosystem by storm. They're hooking into agency management systems.
They're already inside of Hawksoft. They'll be in Now Cert soon.

Speaker 5 I know they're looking at connecting to different CRM systems. What Donna does is it gives you insights into your customer base that you didn't even know were there.

Speaker 5 They have a proprietary scoring system for your communications, your text messages, your emails, your phone calls that boils down the language, you know, how often people are

Speaker 5 contacting you, what they're saying, what they're talking to you about, what your responses are to them. And it creates this centimeter score that is basically

Speaker 5 how someone feels about your agency. And then it's ranking, you know, it can show you that based on the agency as a whole, broken down into segments, all the way down to individuals.

Speaker 5 And what that allows you to do is get out ahead of customers who maybe

Speaker 5 have the potential for leaving. Now, this might sound a lot like MPS, and MPS is great, don't get me wrong, but MPS, the most that you should be tracking net promoter score is once every six months.

Speaker 5 If what Center meter score is taking every conversation that you have with one of your clients and it's able to real-time gauge where they are. And there's all kinds of other features to Donna.

Speaker 5 It's not something that I have implemented into my agency yet, but it is on my 2021 roadmap. Delivering

Speaker 5 this type of customer experience, this type of insightful, engaged customer experience is a priority rogue. It's an important aspect.

Speaker 5 I'm bypassing other aspects of my business to make sure that this is part of it. And when they get hooked into now certs, I will absolutely be on the

Speaker 5 path to putting Donna in. But I spent a lot of time with

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Speaker 5 I met them through Paradiso and have just been blown away by what their tool can present to you.

Speaker 5 specifically the centimeter score, but then there's a whole bunch of other stuff as well that comes with it that I'm not going to,

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Speaker 5 You need to get the demo and just know what it's about because I'm telling you, for some of you, this is going to blow your mind and change

Speaker 5 the way you view data and analytics. All right, guys, let's get on to Preston Diamond.

Speaker 7 Hello, sir.

Speaker 4 Hey, how are you?

Speaker 7 Excellent, sir. You too, young man.

Speaker 4 How uh, I appreciate you coming on and doing the show.

Speaker 7 Hey, I appreciate you asking, of course.

Speaker 4 Well, I uh,

Speaker 4 so I um

Speaker 4 I have been following these some of these LinkedIn posts that you've been doing and I just was like oh my gosh we I want to learn more about this stuff like um just some of the concepts and ideas uh the way that you break them down are it's um it's really it's fun so and interesting and i'm i'm i have a ton of questions so um what were the things you said you added a few things that you definitely wanted to talk about what were those things

Speaker 7 well

Speaker 7 you know this this year's,

Speaker 7 let's say this last

Speaker 7 year and this coming six months at least are different.

Speaker 7 And the difference is so many unemployed. Our webinar tomorrow is hiring producers.
And you're probably not on that list, but

Speaker 7 We have 14 or 15 questions over a two-week period that we're going to talk about on hiring producers with the New Yorker who does that.

Speaker 7 And there's so many unemployed people.

Speaker 7 If any agent isn't looking for a new producer,

Speaker 7 it seems their folly

Speaker 7 because there are a lot of good people.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 They probably don't have to pay. They just need to put somebody to work.

Speaker 7 And even if it's an intern in their agency, and every agency should have an intern to do research on prospects,

Speaker 7 take it out of the producer's hands.

Speaker 7 The producer just has to draw the specs. The agency draws the specs and then put the $15 an hour person to work.
We've had an intern for a bit, actually, right now.

Speaker 7 We have one who's 35 who's just getting his degree in college, but he owned a business and had a bad accident, so he had to sell his business.

Speaker 7 And so he went back to school to get his college degree. We're going to try to keep him.

Speaker 7 But for us, he runs the automation. He's learned how to be a great videographer and produces the wisdom letter

Speaker 7 and

Speaker 7 manages our Infusion Soft

Speaker 7 CRM really well.

Speaker 7 And he's, you know, he never bothers. He's just great.
He's a stay-at-home dad. His wife is a fundraiser for a college down the road.

Speaker 7 So there's so many opportunities. We had,

Speaker 7 you know,

Speaker 7 the major statistics and not the middle of the road are different, but we had an advisor who did 600 grand in new revenue last year

Speaker 7 all online, and another who did 300

Speaker 7 because they really learned how to use

Speaker 7 Zoom

Speaker 7 and they really engaged their folks.

Speaker 7 And And truly, it saves a buyer time.

Speaker 7 You just have to be active at how you use Zoom.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Make it engaging and not make it very long a lot of the time.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 the one who did 300 is a 38-year-old producer who only

Speaker 7 talks about cyber and comp

Speaker 7 two hotspots. Doesn't get muddled up in packages or those kind of apps,

Speaker 7 things of that nature

Speaker 7 and

Speaker 7 his call is for large companies is direct to the risk manager

Speaker 7 who's in charge of that yeah which is pretty smart

Speaker 4 going after high mod high mod stuff or just just no it doesn't matter yeah just

Speaker 7 you know he's calling accounts well

Speaker 7 He has no fear. His first job out of college was making cold calls to business owners to sell them seats to the master's golf tournament and to the baseball all-star game.

Speaker 7 So he was selling $25,000 tickets at 20 years old, out of college at 21.

Speaker 7 And he's kept that mentality. So he's called

Speaker 7 a hospitality firm with 500 locations. Cold call, bless you.

Speaker 7 And he's called another retail establishment around the country with 300 locations. Direct call.
Didn't know.

Speaker 7 They found out who the risk manager was and just called the risk manager.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So, yeah, I know I've talked about it before on the show, but the thing that holds me back the most is call reluctance.

Speaker 4 I make the calls.

Speaker 4 I just don't make enough of them or make them often enough.

Speaker 4 And I get so twisted up in my head. And it is one one of the things about my own personality that I struggle with the most is

Speaker 4 call reluctance. And it's like, even saying it out loud makes me crazy that I struggle with it so much.
But left to my own devices sitting here, I don't make enough phone calls.

Speaker 7 That's all, you know, that's a number of us. And I, you know, I've been doing this for a long time.
It bothers me to get on the phone. It's like I'm disturbing somebody now.

Speaker 7 And I'm calling people who are agents, you know, so I can talk to them and their language easily enough. Yeah.
But you just have to trick yourself. And there's a couple of ways to do it.

Speaker 7 My guess is that you go to the refrigerator a little bit during the day.

Speaker 4 Occasionally.

Speaker 7 What's the first time?

Speaker 7 What happens? What's the first thing that happens when you open the refrigerator door?

Speaker 4 Start scanning.

Speaker 7 No.

Speaker 4 What?

Speaker 7 When you open the door exactly, what's the very first thing that happens?

Speaker 4 The light comes on.

Speaker 7 Right. So pretend you're on the stage.
That's a practice moment for a call.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Trick yourself into doing these things that become automatic.

Speaker 7 Set your alarm, set your phone alarm for

Speaker 7 37 after the hour, two hours a day,

Speaker 7 and practice for a minute.

Speaker 7 Yeah.

Speaker 7 in front of you. So that kind of stuff,

Speaker 7 The other two things that make calling easier that we talk to the young young new agents about is our phones obviously record.

Speaker 7 You can talk back. You can use apps like Otter that'll print what you're saying.

Speaker 7 And when you read anything out loud,

Speaker 7 you'll know how it sounds to the listener.

Speaker 7 And we try not to let a letter get out of here unless somebody reads it out loud.

Speaker 7 We're not really good at it enough, Amanda is, but like I write it, you know, I just get it out, so I'm

Speaker 7 an old lazy guy, maybe.

Speaker 7 So it's

Speaker 7 doing

Speaker 7 things that change how we think.

Speaker 7 Like I have a document that I think is

Speaker 7 up

Speaker 7 here.

Speaker 7 It's

Speaker 7 break the rules and make new rules for this year. It's just one page with, I think, three, six, nine, twelve squares on it.

Speaker 7 So those are the rules that we're talking to agents

Speaker 7 to break and make new rules this year.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Because, you know, one of them is something I've been touting for 50 years. I started consulting in 77, so 43 years, 44 years coming up.

Speaker 7 And that is not talk insurance talk.

Speaker 7 Purely. And for my next, I posted a little bit on that, but the next one's going to be getting rid of a couple of insurance terms to make it simple.

Speaker 7 And I've done a PowerPoint I've distributed to a few advisors called Food and Insurance.

Speaker 7 So that you relate something that everybody knows to a product that nobody understands.

Speaker 7 Like I used to ask folks when I was teaching CIC, how many of you have, when you get your personal policies at home, call your best friends and have a let's read my insurance policy party.

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 4 exactly yeah

Speaker 7 so

Speaker 7 the biggest thing an agent can do the strongest thing an agent can do is to create insurance understanding

Speaker 7 and you can't do that by words

Speaker 7 so if you're a personal lines or personal insurance client we throw out the word lines because that's our term if you sell auto and home insurance

Speaker 7 and people come into your agency when that was the case

Speaker 7 The salespeople and personal department should have two toy cars on their desk and crash them together and let them go to the floor to talk about collision.

Speaker 7 Visual sale. You know, if you Google visuals versus words,

Speaker 7 it opens your eyes on how to sell insurance.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I've started,

Speaker 4 I took this little like mini online course called,

Speaker 4 oh, geez.

Speaker 4 I'm going to tell you a story about it and I don't even I can't remember what it was virtual visuals something like that

Speaker 4 this is gonna kill me oh my gosh

Speaker 4 whatever some visual course and

Speaker 4 so I started creating and basically it was just a course to teach you how to make graphics out of ideas you have so if you have an idea how do you create a graphic that represents that idea and and um i started creating these and i've created maybe 30 of them so far.

Speaker 4 And what's been interesting about them is the

Speaker 4 feedback that I've gotten has been tremendous. I mean, I don't want to necessarily say people are calling me to do business because I put some social media graphics out, but I will say that

Speaker 4 in some cold emails that I've sent to people, I've included one of these visuals and stuff like that. I have one that's like,

Speaker 4 it's three

Speaker 4 Vs next to each other. And

Speaker 4 one of the Vs is then filled halfway. And then the middle V is filled halfway.
And then the third V is filled all the way to the top. And it has our logo in the middle.

Speaker 4 And on top of the first V, it says, uh, half empty. And in the middle one, it says half full.
And then in the third one, it says Rogue Risk.

Speaker 4 So the title of the graphic is, Are You Getting a Full Cup Experience? So like this was, right? So it came out of the idea of like, you know, you, you,

Speaker 4 I wanted to basically say, like, why, why are we arguing over a half, you know, this cup that is obviously not full? Like, why don't we just fill the cup up?

Speaker 4 Why don't we just do all the things we say we're going to do? And,

Speaker 4 you know, it's been interesting. I've emailed that to a few potential clients that I'm working on and I've at least gotten responses from them, right? It's at least gotten them to engage me back.

Speaker 4 So it is, I will say, the visual thing

Speaker 4 is hugely powerful.

Speaker 7 It is. And

Speaker 7 that's why Zoom theoretically works better than a phone call because I can see your body language. And we're having a face-to-face conversation, not a mouth-to-ear conversation.

Speaker 7 And so

Speaker 7 I wonder how many agencies have their account managers calling all of their clients so they have a face-to-face meeting

Speaker 7 because

Speaker 7 account managers rarely get to meet the people they service.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And if those agencies aren't taking advantage of Zoom or whatever platform they use.

Speaker 4 Well, you know, I think about this from the standpoint as well of there being like virtual assistants becoming so

Speaker 4 both now

Speaker 4 from a security standpoint, virtual assistants have become, you know,

Speaker 4 a more secure part of your business that you can have. So before it was just bringing someone in that you didn't really necessarily know.

Speaker 4 Now, if you use an agency VA or one of these other companies that have secure systems that they use, they can actually get into some of your systems.

Speaker 4 And my reason for bringing that up is whether it's someone in the States or someone outside,

Speaker 4 if you're utilizing virtual assistants for some of the

Speaker 4 tasks that would normally keep an account manager from having the time to make some of these calls and do some of these things like Zooms, it really,

Speaker 4 you know, coupling a tool like Zoom or even just a

Speaker 4 like one of these video tools like Loom or Vidyard,

Speaker 4 you can give your account managers more time. It just, it feels very much like what COVID is, with this COVID,

Speaker 4 with the pandemic and all the repercussions from it have shown us is

Speaker 4 what is actually available to us now, like how much more we can do with the time that we have to be a value add and build relationships with our customers.

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 7 Absolutely. And how many agencies are doing it? No idea.
How many are complaining because they can't go see people?

Speaker 7 No idea.

Speaker 7 but

Speaker 7 this and the other thing that zoom has done and this environment has done is you can get referrals from friends 300 miles away from a client and take care of them as well as you can take care of somebody in your own backyard yeah so our exposure to new clients is unlimited now Oh yeah, we had a program for assisted living and anybody who took care of apart people.

Speaker 7 We still do.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 I don't think we saw 10 clients except when we did marketing seminars around California. It was more than marketing.

Speaker 7 It was helping them with the codes because they're assisted living and they were regulated and all that.

Speaker 7 But today,

Speaker 7 when the team there makes calls, they're all picture calls. So now they get to know the people, which increases retention.

Speaker 7 And if every agent isn't doing that with their top accounts, at least, and not just the owners of the account, but the account manager, the person that writes the check or

Speaker 7 the person that take care of the audit in the business,

Speaker 7 somebody in safety, if they're that large, the HR person, if they're that large, anybody that the agency has a relationship with.

Speaker 7 everybody who handles that account or services that account should have Zoom their clients.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Sure, that happens very often.

Speaker 4 No, no, I don't think it does. I think that I think it's going to take a while for agencies to become accustomed to doing, to working video.

Speaker 4 I think most people have still to this day,

Speaker 4 I think they're still hoping that eventually it goes back to face-to-face. And, you know, if you're in.

Speaker 4 a lot of the southern states, then you know, you haven't had the lockdowns like we have in the north. I mean, up here,

Speaker 4 there's clients that I literally don't even know what they look like. I, you know, it's been interesting.
I've had clients who haven't wanted to do Zooms.

Speaker 4 They're still, they're perfectly fine with the phone.

Speaker 7 They've never met in person.

Speaker 4 They're fine over the phone, you know. So I think it is,

Speaker 4 it's just a very dynamic time. And I think it's, to me, it feels like

Speaker 4 it feels like it's very easy to

Speaker 4 it's very easy to to to present to to feel like you can't deliver as much value because of covid and i guess what i'm seeing is you can actually deliver a lot more um

Speaker 4 because of you know what covet has forced us to do like you know as a as a as a bright spot as a good way of looking at it yeah no i agree with you 100

Speaker 7 and you know i think part of our problem as agents are

Speaker 7 we don't ask our clients how they like to do things. Like

Speaker 7 my favorite, and we don't ever use the word question. My favorite, we call it, I mean, we check a few points because question can be an intimidating word.

Speaker 7 So, you know, one of the points that we would always check is when we communicate, how do you like to communicate? In person, well, we're social people, but it's a little harder today,

Speaker 7 Ryan.

Speaker 7 So do you like phone? Do you like facts still? Do you like a Zoom call where we face to face? How long do you usually like to talk? A couple of minutes.

Speaker 7 You know, I think when we ask our prospective clients how they like to do things,

Speaker 7 do you prefer me just to drop by when the time is right? Is that okay? Or prefer me not to?

Speaker 7 Who is it that I should talk to who helps you out?

Speaker 7 You know, none of those things are on accorded apps. Yeah.

Speaker 7 So we don't a lot of time use common sense ways

Speaker 7 to

Speaker 7 frame our business around how the client wants to frame the business as long as it's not costing us more money and how to communicate isn't.

Speaker 7 And when we come back to present, and we don't use the word proposal or presentation, we have our own keywords for things like that because those are too

Speaker 7 hard to

Speaker 7 I think it puts the buyer on a little defensive. But anyway, when I come back to

Speaker 7 give you our our report of findings is what we use.

Speaker 7 You prefer one at 30,000 feet, which would be for me, because I'm a skimmer. I'm not a detail person like Kevin.
And he would like it boots on the ground. He wants to know everything.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 Would you like your report of finding at 30,000 feet? We'll give you the highlights. Would you like it at 10,000 feet? We'll give you a few more details that we think are important.

Speaker 7 Or would you like boots on the ground? Well, we'll give you a 52-page report of findings.

Speaker 7 So, the key is to find out how your buyer likes to do business. And if that fits into your way of doing business financially, then why wouldn't you do that?

Speaker 7 And you'll keep the buyer more because they're not straining to fit into our way of doing business.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And I don't think agents pay much attention to that. Well, not, I don't think.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 Well, I think that I think most

Speaker 4 us feel so lucky to get an account that

Speaker 4 everything you just described would never even enter the realm of consciousness. You know, I think that it's a, it, yeah, I had, I had someone the other day, um,

Speaker 4 they were talking about, um, oh, they sent me this quote. And I'm, again, now

Speaker 4 I couldn't figure out the name of the visual course and I'm not going to remember the quote either, so I'm going to butcher it. But the idea was basically, um,

Speaker 4 most

Speaker 4 people live

Speaker 4 by chance. You know, basically what they were saying is that the average person is just kind of bumping into things.
And if something good happens, that's great.

Speaker 4 Something doesn't good happen, you know, something doesn't happen, that's what they want. They kind of deal with it.
And that

Speaker 4 we have to be

Speaker 4 conscious and consistent and focused.

Speaker 4 Or otherwise everything is just by chance.

Speaker 4 And I think that's what you're talking about is like, if we're not, if you're not figuring out up front that someone, how someone likes to communicate, like if someone said, I, you know, I don't care about COVID, you have to come into my office and coming into that, their office doesn't work for you, right?

Speaker 4 Or you're 400 miles away from that person, you know, you've just, you're, you're putting a ton of work and effort into an account that's never going to actually work out for you.

Speaker 4 And you're wasting time and energy. And then you'll complain that it, you know, why does it, you know, why didn't this happen?

Speaker 4 Or, you know, the insurance customers you know they don't care anymore and you make up all these excuses but really it was because you didn't take the time to figure out right up front if this person was a good fit for you or not sure

Speaker 7 but you know every agent should be in charge of that what are what are your rules for having for

Speaker 7 having a client hire you yeah they have to live by your rules because you're guard governed by the insurance company because they're not flexible.

Speaker 7 So what are your rules knowing how the insurance companies operate? Like,

Speaker 7 way before you were born and direct bills started, you know, we were all worried that we were going to lose all of business and all of that kind of stuff because, because, because.

Speaker 7 And then now it's

Speaker 7 ingrained in everybody's businesses because it's personal and commercial. So, those were rule changes.
So, what are the rules of doing insurance business with Ryan Hanley?

Speaker 7 Do you have your 10 rules that your buyers can fit into to make it easier for them and for you?

Speaker 7 And they're pretty common sense, like, how do you like to communicate? When I come back to present my report of findings,

Speaker 7 you know, we can say non-fat, low-fat, and artery clogging. We can use any metaphors.
that we want and we should use

Speaker 7 so that the buyer understands it exactly.

Speaker 7 You know, one of the secrets of selling

Speaker 7 is,

Speaker 7 well, for you, if you suffer a disaster, not have a claim, because that's an insurance word.

Speaker 7 So if you suffer a disaster, or an employee suffers an injury, not has a claim, because that's an insurance word.

Speaker 7 Do you want to know how much the check you're going to have to write when that happens? or how much the check the insurance company is going to write when that happens? What do you prefer, Ryan?

Speaker 4 Yeah, are you asking, are you asking me personally or?

Speaker 7 Absolutely.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I want to know how big a check I'm going to have to write.

Speaker 7 Right.

Speaker 7 But how many agents

Speaker 7 know that and ask that question?

Speaker 7 And when I, we created a proposal system in 1995 that had to be put on the shelf a couple years ago because our coverage analyst took another job and I haven't really done much work to find somebody who wants to keep up wording on the insurance industry.

Speaker 7 But it was all visually based

Speaker 7 back then. And it was three columns.
On the left-hand side column was the house. The center was just the word where you live.
And then about 10 words describing a homeowner's.

Speaker 7 And then coverage items with pictures.

Speaker 7 But, And it was simple, built-in Word.

Speaker 7 So agents didn't like it because it didn't fit in their agency management system.

Speaker 7 They'd rather produce something that everybody else produces that people can't understand because it's insurance stock and have an intern put together these presentations, report of findings, proposal, whatever they call it for them, which buyers understand

Speaker 7 because they're put together how the mind and the brain work together.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 You know, we,

Speaker 7 if, if I spelled G-A-R-B-A-G-E for you,

Speaker 7 your mind would automatically go to garbage. You wouldn't go to G-A-R-B-A-G-E, the letters.

Speaker 7 So that's creating insurance understanding, which is the key to selling the product because people fear what they don't understand. Yeah.
That's human nature.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I've said this before on the show. I was lucky to be raised in an agency where my father-in-law is like the ultimate storyteller.

Speaker 4 And I would sit in my office and I could hear him selling people. And he had these stories that he would tell.
And I basically stole all of them and made them my stories. It's great.

Speaker 4 But he would run people through a story for every coverage on a home and auto.

Speaker 7 Exactly.

Speaker 4 Every coverage had a story, you know,

Speaker 4 no fault, uninsured motorist. Why do you have full glass on comp when you need collision, when you don't need collision? On and story, story.
I had a client that did this. Here's how this happened.

Speaker 4 What if this happens? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And by the end, the people would

Speaker 4 be talking to him, not in insurance language, obviously, but

Speaker 4 they would know what they were buying. And it was insane watching the transformation.
And it was because, even though he didn't necessarily have imagery, he created that with stories.

Speaker 7 That's wonderful. Stories and gossip sell.

Speaker 7 Facts confuse.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 You talk too much, you confuse, you lose.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I have an agent friend in Washington. It's a monopolistic state, so he's not a cop agent.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 he's a big personal insurance agent, big, big accounts, obviously, Microsoft, Amazon, all of the wealth there. And he just roams around taking pictures of accidents.

Speaker 7 He gets when houses are on fire.

Speaker 7 So his stories are on his laptop showing actual loss of events, clipping articles from the local newspapers.

Speaker 7 And that's his report of findings or presentation. Yeah.
And it's really persuasive and really simple today.

Speaker 7 Yeah. We make it hard.
Agents make it hard.

Speaker 4 Well, you know, I think I think we forget sometimes that

Speaker 4 everyone just assumes that they're never going to have a bad loss like unless you've actually had one you basically assume it's never going to happen to you and that's why or at least i think one of the reasons why just talking people through coverages and like you say the facts it

Speaker 4 it's so meaningless because if they are operating under the assumption it's never going to happen to them which i think most people do and they've never had it happen, then what is just telling them, you know, what does a million dollars in in liability mean to someone who basically assumes that's never going to happen to them?

Speaker 4 They're, they're too small or they, they're too safe or they've been doing it for too long and it's never happened.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I mean, these kind of things mean, you know, all of a sudden it's meaningless.

Speaker 7 Totally.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Totally. We had an earthquake program and I have a good friend client in New York City who was wiped out by.
Hurricane Sandy five or six years ago.

Speaker 7 And when Jim and I were talking about afterward, he was saying, you know, I should be able to sell flood insurance. He's the only one in his block that had flood insurance.

Speaker 7 And he said, these people are silly. I should be able to sell them all flood insurance.

Speaker 7 And the New York Times and all the papers said this is a once in a thousand year event.

Speaker 7 That was noted all the time. So who do you think bought flood insurance from him?

Speaker 4 Nobody. Well,

Speaker 7 didn't sell one. We had an earthquake program and we had San Francisco quake during the World Series of 89.
We had about 200 houses with

Speaker 7 problems. During the Northridge quake in 1994, which sort of made us think about moving

Speaker 7 from California, we had about 800 houses damaged.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 there hasn't been a quake like that since 1994.

Speaker 7 Little ones.

Speaker 7 So the 89 and the 94 quake so that's we're going on six years to 2000 20

Speaker 7 26 years since a big quake and you keep reading about the big quake that's coming but the people that buy quake insurance are those whose lenders make them

Speaker 7 yeah voluntarily unless you know and we insured some houses of 10 million we insured stars we were a wholesaler so i didn't know any of these people

Speaker 7 but you know the the premium didn't matter to them and they had managers that bought insurance and the managers had to cover their

Speaker 7 buns yeah so they did it but

Speaker 7 you're right 100 and your father-in-law has it exactly right gossip and stories sell insurance yeah yeah

Speaker 4 so

Speaker 4 you um one of these items on one of your linkedin posts that i was that i was super interested in is unseen and untold is unsold what what does that mean can you break that down for me well just, you know, the words talk for themselves, really.

Speaker 7 If I don't see you and I don't tell you, I can't sell you.

Speaker 7 So picture sell.

Speaker 7 Now, phone, but Zoom makes that happen.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So unseen,

Speaker 7 face-to-face person. But the point is, really, back to your call reluctance.

Speaker 7 You can translate unseen as not talked to.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So if you can't talk to them,

Speaker 7 you can't sell them unless you're really direct market and you're selling some product they can buy by mail and never see you.

Speaker 4 So then there was another post you had about winning questions. And this was another one.
This is one of the ones that I wanted to break down a little bit because this was really interesting as well.

Speaker 4 So you had, these are winning questions, 12 winning questions

Speaker 4 posted on LinkedIn. And if you're not following Preston on LinkedIn, everyone that's listening, I would absolutely go do so.

Speaker 4 Must follow on the LinkedIns.

Speaker 4 But there's a few of these questions I thought were really interesting. And this is like, you know, you've already broken down a couple of these.

Speaker 4 When I present, do you like 30,000, 10 foot or boots on the ground?

Speaker 4 I liked,

Speaker 4 what was it, non-fat, low-fat, or

Speaker 4 artery clogging was one. I like that.

Speaker 7 You have to be a little careful about who you use artery clogging with.

Speaker 4 Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure.
But, you know, even 30,000 10-footer boots on the ground probably gets it done.

Speaker 4 You know,

Speaker 5 when you're, when you're

Speaker 4 for these particular questions, I guess my first part is, when are you going through some of these with them? Are, or, is this before a sale, post-sale? Should this be part of your

Speaker 4 like the courting process, you know, but as you're, as you're getting to know them as a prospect or a suspect?

Speaker 4 Or are you, is this after the sale is over, I, you know, you, they've signed all the docs and I pull out my trusty notebook and I go, you know, okay, how did you get in the business?

Speaker 4 Like, what, what is, what, when is the appropriate time?

Speaker 4 And I'm assuming you do not want to just. like rattle these off one after the next like there's got to be some artistry to working your way through some of these questions as well

Speaker 7 sure

Speaker 7 and that, you know, it starts with your intern researching, finding out, because today information is pretty readily available through many sources.

Speaker 7 And if one belongs to an association or a group, like every agent should belong to two at least, to become an industry insider.

Speaker 7 So we happen to be in California when the assisted living industry started in 1977.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 a friend introduced me to the president of the association.

Speaker 7 So I was on the ground floor of that industry in California. So I got to learn it.
And California is an anomaly for that industry.

Speaker 7 So other states don't have what California has as far as licensing is concerned. Yeah.

Speaker 7 My wife and I could become an assisted living facility and just have one resident in and

Speaker 7 get paid by the state or the city or by the resident if it's private, as long as we had a fire alarm and an exit in that room.

Speaker 7 So California has a law that six beds or less could be in a private dwelling or had a law. And I think they still do.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 I think there are five or six questions that are paramount.

Speaker 7 The very first Zoom meeting and the very first meeting.

Speaker 7 And then I actually put together, I think, 112 blue chip questions that cover all of the incidents that you can run into, pretty much any of them back when I did it, but it's not up to date with cyber and the new coverage that are out there.

Speaker 7 But anyway, the number one is always, how did you get into this business anyway?

Speaker 7 Because

Speaker 7 you want to know their background in that business so you can learn what they learn, what they know, and talk to them the way they talk about their business.

Speaker 7 So that's critical. The second one is as critical, please share your marketing plan with me.
Are they going to expand? Are they going to go all virtual?

Speaker 7 is their website going to be their main source of revenue are they going to go international

Speaker 7 are they

Speaker 7 hoping to increase revenue by three times

Speaker 7 so you know understand when you come back and how you can model your program the third one and only insurance question because we're comp people is please share with me how you felt when an employee suffered an injury and how that and how your insurance company took care of you and your injured employee.

Speaker 7 And the reason for that question is a BOR opportunity. Number one,

Speaker 7 if they said they didn't like what the company did,

Speaker 7 then

Speaker 7 getting them to sign a BOR may not be the right thing.

Speaker 7 If they liked it, then it comes down to you, not the company, which is what you want,

Speaker 7 because what you're going to provide for them is

Speaker 7 an error-free,

Speaker 7 overcharge-free

Speaker 7 program.

Speaker 7 And I'm betting most of your listeners, clients, don't know what their lowest possible mod could be.

Speaker 7 So, you know, we go that in the course, as you know.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And some of these things are key. So that's the question that leads into that.
The fourth one is, how do you like to communicate?

Speaker 7 The fifth one is, when I come back to present, you like 30,000 feet.

Speaker 7 So those are the five

Speaker 7 all-the-time ones.

Speaker 7 And with that,

Speaker 7 you have a checklist because everybody knows checklists.

Speaker 7 And the metaphor for that is when you go onto an airplane in those days, when we will again, most of us look to the left because it's just common,

Speaker 7 just its habit to look into the cockpit.

Speaker 7 And typically,

Speaker 7 we'll see the pilot or co-pilot filling out a checklist.

Speaker 7 So people are familiar with checklists.

Speaker 7 So checklists are really important

Speaker 7 and compare that to your

Speaker 7 implementation

Speaker 7 checklist at the end of your present report of findings to show the buyer how you operate. Because if they don't know, well, maybe fear will set in.

Speaker 7 But when you have a checklist at the front end and a checklist at the back end,

Speaker 7 your buyer is going to feel more comfortable.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 because you're checking these points of interest.

Speaker 4 Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. And it's something that I have, I have

Speaker 4 creating that type of process, a checklist-based process,

Speaker 4 has never been my strong suit.

Speaker 4 A strength of mine is that I move fast. A weakness of mine is that I move fast and I don't slow down

Speaker 4 to put some of these processes in place. But I have started to to do it.
And I have found just in the few interactions with clients that I've had where I've started to use some of my,

Speaker 4 you know, whatever document, you know, standard documentation that it

Speaker 4 almost provides security to people. Like, it's almost like they want to see that you have this defined,

Speaker 4 like, I think some people, I think my, I shouldn't say some people, I'm going to speak for myself.

Speaker 4 I think my perception would be

Speaker 4 that

Speaker 4 my perception would be is that some, you know, you want to be loose and engaged and back and forth.

Speaker 4 And, you know, you want to, you know, you want to feel confident and off the cuff and that you've done this a million times and that a checklist takes you away from that.

Speaker 4 But the opposite is actually true. Like the client wants to see you going, yep, we got this squared away and that squared away.
And okay, seven things, boom, check number seven.

Speaker 4 Hey, you know, we're in good shape. Look, all seven of my boxes here are checked.
I got it. I know exactly what you want.
You know that I have the information. Here it is.

Speaker 4 Like, let's move on to the next step. Like

Speaker 4 it, it provides peace and security that you actually have a process that you're following and that you're going through it.

Speaker 7 Do you know anybody who's never made a checklist?

Speaker 4 Do I know anyone who's ever not made one? Is I just asking?

Speaker 4 No, I mean, most people have at some point in their life, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah, you know, in the morning, come in, I'm going to do these five things today, or before I go home last night, or we're going to buy these groceries, or, or, or

Speaker 7 checklists like report cards are part of American life.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And if you fit in, you know, the old saying that I've used forever, if you can see John Smith through John Smith's eyes, you'll sell John Smith what John Smith buys.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So understanding your buyer and not using insurance language and creating insurance understanding are the heart of a great program.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 People buy people. They don't buy things.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 So tell, so for everyone who's listening,

Speaker 4 I'd like you to maybe spend the rest of our time together just talking a little bit about the Institute and about what the Institute is about, why you got it started, you know,

Speaker 4 who considers joining? Who are the people who

Speaker 4 become part of your organization?

Speaker 7 Thank you for that question.

Speaker 7 I met a consultant in a hot tub in 1977, which was a

Speaker 7 watershed point for me.

Speaker 7 And I invited him to come to our agency. This was in Southern California.
We were a couple hundred miles away, so he came up. He wasn't busy.

Speaker 7 We were doing pretty much what he would recommend to any of his clients. And he was an icon in the industry.
He sadly died at 52.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 back in those days, he had a Volkswagen, he had a van and he would consult with an agency during the day.

Speaker 7 At night, he'd go back to his van and type up the report and leave it at the front door of the agency when he drove on to the next appointment overnight, someplace close.

Speaker 7 And so

Speaker 7 he taught me that and I consulted with a number of agencies. And

Speaker 7 that led me to being 400 plus agencies over a period of time. And I've spoken to a number of groups.

Speaker 7 And when I was speaking to a group out in Las Vegas in about 1995, an agent there came up at the end and said, I like what you said.

Speaker 7 I'm a comp guy. Can you help me? And so we formed a.

Speaker 7 relationship and that and then I work with a nice comp agent in California who wanted to do like we're doing.

Speaker 7 And so just from that, it morphed in to the Institute because I was,

Speaker 7 we moved back to Chapel Hill, North Carolina in 97 up to Asheville in 04.

Speaker 7 And so my wife and I would drive around the country with me consulting and she was a champ. Spent the day in the hotel room reading, then we'd go to dinner and then

Speaker 7 driving back to either to North Carolina or California at that time too. We'd spend time

Speaker 7 really sightseeing

Speaker 7 because I spread my gigs far enough apart so that we'd make a lot of it pleasure to see the country. And we did.

Speaker 7 It's great driving around the country and finding things you read about and all of a sudden you're there.

Speaker 7 And so

Speaker 7 we started the Institute in 2001, 30 days after 9-11.

Speaker 7 And because I had consulted around the country, I had a cadre of a lot of agents I knew. So they were handpicked to come and critique us and do that.
So from there it started.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 our daughter was going to school in Virginia and came home for one semester and happened to meet Kevin during that semester. And he was a techie through and through.

Speaker 7 He got his first computer at age eight. And he

Speaker 7 going to North Carolina, North Carolina State, he was a techie there.

Speaker 7 And so

Speaker 7 because he was dating dating and then married our daughter, you know, he

Speaker 7 helped us with our

Speaker 7 stuff because neither of us were technologically handy. And so that led to him coming aboard.

Speaker 7 And so it was just something that happened based upon my consulting that no agent treated workers' comp as an insurance policy.

Speaker 7 because every state has the same policy. There can be no value adds.
There can't be other stuff you can throw onto it except the right endorsements because of the hazard.

Speaker 7 So agents didn't pay attention to comp.

Speaker 7 Commissions were the lowest. Every policy was the same.
They couldn't differentiate themselves.

Speaker 7 And little did they realize that workers' comp is incredibly complex, especially today when there are so many multi-state employers because every state makes their own rules and regulations all moderated by NCCI and 37 or

Speaker 4 you were saying when you first started to break up a little bit you were set you were talking about um NCCI

Speaker 7 oh

Speaker 7 before then uh back then not the laptop no you know you did no before the laptop okay

Speaker 7 37 or 39 states are NCCI. The rest are independent states and

Speaker 7 four states are monopolistic. So, there was a great opportunity because agents didn't treat workers' comp as an insurance policy.
It was just compass, compass, comp.

Speaker 7 You can't have value, you can't add value to it really, etc.

Speaker 7 And the most important part of comp are injured employees, obviously, and all of that was delegated to insurance companies. So, mods could rewrite

Speaker 7 if the injury wasn't managed correctly. So, there was a lot of opportunity and a complex

Speaker 7 coverage policy that has a lot of moving parts. And comp is money.

Speaker 7 You pay a premium, you have an audit, money.

Speaker 7 An employee suffers an injury, doesn't have a claim, suffers an injury, is money.

Speaker 7 Reporting date to NCCI or your independent bureau is money.

Speaker 7 The renewal is money. So comp is really more money than it is insurance.

Speaker 7 And it's the only insurance that the buyer has complete charge over because of safety, because of preventing errors and overcharges, because of getting to their lowest possible cost.

Speaker 7 And no agents knew that back at that time, or let's say very few. No, it was too strong a word.
So that's what we focused on. But our very first institute in 2001,

Speaker 7 We offered everybody to come as a teaser a laptop.

Speaker 7 Thought that would do it because we're teaching them comp, which they just, everybody sold. It's a takeover insurance, which is another great thing.

Speaker 7 You don't have to sell a new policy like EPLI

Speaker 7 or cyber where people say, well, I've never had a claim. I'm not going to buy it.

Speaker 7 So comp, we knew every agent sold. That was part of it.
And the computer was to entice them to come, but I was the one who called to fill the seats.

Speaker 7 And most people never wanted to talk about the comp. They wanted to know what kind of computer they were going to get

Speaker 7 and how was it specced.

Speaker 7 And that was just disaster because I'm certainly far along. I'm not a techie.

Speaker 7 So we cut that out after about five phone calls and went back to convincing them to come. And we charged a lot of money

Speaker 7 to do that.

Speaker 7 And the write-ups for the first one were great. They were handpicked to come.

Speaker 7 agents I had worked with, so we had a strong relationship because I consulted in their agency. I knew their agency.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 7 so

Speaker 7 it grew and it morphed into,

Speaker 7 instead of a training session like I taught CIC,

Speaker 7 so instead of a training session where you pay to get trained, we made it a membership organization

Speaker 7 where we train you

Speaker 7 and we certify you and we hold your hand to make money. Like Kevin is at 981 mod worksheets so far analyzed since 2011.
And we'll hit a thousand in a month or two or three, maybe.

Speaker 7 And we have

Speaker 7 records of being able to help employers.

Speaker 7 Well, we have one advisor who's been an advisor since 2004.

Speaker 7 And I challenged him when he came to keep records. He's very, very detailed.
And he kept great records from 2004.

Speaker 7 And we have a

Speaker 7 testimonial from him that he's helped employers reduce costs and return money over 50 million bucks in that time, and he's tripled their revenue.

Speaker 7 So it's the only insurance where you have a 100%

Speaker 7 hold

Speaker 7 on the employer's money. And we really

Speaker 7 say all the time, lead with comp,

Speaker 7 prove yourself and let the buyer beg you to take over the rest of the insurance. And I try all the time to get some producer in the agency to only be the comp person.

Speaker 7 We have a few agencies like that. We have one that we work with closely, where they always team sell.

Speaker 7 One of them is the liability person, and the other is

Speaker 7 the comp person. And whoever gets the appointment takes the other one who doesn't say a word unless spoken to, but introduced as a liability person.

Speaker 7 So that with a compass put to bed, the liability person can call. Smart.

Speaker 7 Smart.

Speaker 4 Very smart.

Speaker 7 So it's morphed into that. And we've got, you know, the only state that we can't seem to get into that we're dying to is Hawaii.

Speaker 7 We have an agent in Alaska. It's great.

Speaker 7 He's active.

Speaker 7 We've had a few hits in Hawaii. I've tried a few times, but that hasn't worked because that would be obviously more than just an institute.

Speaker 7 And we've done a number of agencies in-house and we have a number of groups.

Speaker 7 Like we're doing

Speaker 7 an institute

Speaker 7 next week or early February for

Speaker 7 an agency with 47 locations or 37 locations. So virtually makes it happen.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 They wouldn't bring anybody to one location, but now they can have 30 offices sit in.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 4 I know

Speaker 4 the NYCIRB in New York has been,

Speaker 4 it's been interesting,

Speaker 4 you know, because I work in Connecticut, Vermont, and New York primarily.

Speaker 4 Appointed in a few other states, but most of my clients and even inside of there, Vermont and New York are the Bellwethers.

Speaker 4 And just

Speaker 4 keeping it straight in my head between Vermont being NCCI and New York with the NYCIRB, you know, there's not, it's, it's just, you know, just those differences can be, can sometimes be a little, I don't know, you just, just trying to keep them all straight and how does this one work and the difference in the rating and getting all the information.

Speaker 4 It's,

Speaker 4 you know, if you, if you work primarily in NCCI states, it's nice because at least they're operating under the same organization.

Speaker 4 I know the states tend to differ too, but,

Speaker 4 you know, New York is always its own monster. So that's been interesting.

Speaker 7 Well, and you have it like we do. You know, we're 50 miles within four states.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 Send employees to another state to work. It's a different rule, maybe.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So, you know, Kevin lives with all of this every day and he loves it. Yeah.
Starts every day at NCCI on their website to see what's new.

Speaker 7 And then. You know, we have agencies in California has their own bureau.
North Carolina has their own bureau. We have a number of agencies in your state.

Speaker 7 We have them in states with their own bureau, and there's state exceptions.

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 we get into all of that stuff.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 4 so if someone wants to

Speaker 4 learn more about joining or just what membership looks like, just where do they go? What's the best place for them to head?

Speaker 7 Sure, there's workcomprofessionals.com

Speaker 7 or there's

Speaker 7 that's a good starting point. Yeah.
Certainly, you can email Kevin at iwcpro.com or Preston at iwcpro.com.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Conversation with you.

Speaker 4 Guys, I will say if you're if you're looking to

Speaker 4 really become an expert in comp and and

Speaker 4 drill down into the nitty-gritty of what's going on and be surrounded by other people who appreciate the nitty-gritty of the coverage And in particular, when you're dealing with multiple states

Speaker 4 and just all the different facets that come with,

Speaker 4 you know, workers' comp in general. I think the work that you and Kevin are doing, I mean, I can't speak highly enough.

Speaker 4 And, you know, I

Speaker 4 think, I think that you guys are doing some of the best work in our industry

Speaker 4 for any particular coverage, but workers' comp especially. And, you know, I, we do, you know, I'm building my agency around comp.
So I, I think, um,

Speaker 4 I think

Speaker 4 I'm excited that you were able to give us so much time. And I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 And I hope that more people after hearing, you know, if they, if they weren't aware, uh, are going to give your organization a second look or a first look, learn more.

Speaker 4 There's, there's tons of free resources on your site.

Speaker 7 There's ways that you can, I think there's a newsletter they can subscribe to right uh correct work comp advisory which we've been doing since 2006 which is yep no marketing we private label leaf for your agency yeah there is an extra charge over institute fees and there's i didn't mention teresa who's injury manage who our injury management person but teresa was a claims manager at disney world for seven years and she is a licensed adjuster and she worked at disney world for 14 years and so she manages injuries for our advisors who have larger accounts, retro plans or things of that nature based upon her time.

Speaker 7 And she's helped advisors really manage claims very well. And well, obviously, look at her background.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's tremendous.

Speaker 7 So we hold your hand after you take the course and get certified. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Master Work Comp advisor course,

Speaker 7 which is free form.

Speaker 7 The certified work comp advisor course, we filed for continuing ed.

Speaker 7 And now we provide continuing ed for Georgia, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, and Missouri and we've just filed for four more states and we're going to bleed it out four states at a time.

Speaker 7 So continuing ed is part of the certified workup advisor course.

Speaker 7 The master workup advisor course is more limited in attendance and it's not as structured and the tests are different.

Speaker 7 And we go way deep into the manual and the master course

Speaker 7 and deeper in a little bit of the how to get and keep clients once you learn the process. And thank you

Speaker 7 for asking us. Appreciate everything.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Well, thank you.
I wish you nothing but the best. And thanks for coming on the show.

Speaker 7 Yeah. And I didn't mean to call you a different name than Ryan.

Speaker 4 You know what?

Speaker 7 I wandered there for a moment.

Speaker 4 I just,

Speaker 4 that went right over my head.

Speaker 7 I didn't even realize. I wouldn't even know the difference.

Speaker 7 Thanks, Guy. Keep well, please.
Stay safe. Yeah, be good.
Have a good one.

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