RHS 058 - Mike McDonough on Taking Your Insurance Game to a Level Most Refuse to Go

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Speaker 5 In a crude laboratory in the basement of his home.

Speaker 6 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show.

Speaker 6 Today is an episode for all my true player pimps out there, for all of you looking to go real deep on a product, on a niche, just become not just an expert, but the expert, the go-to source, the problem solver, the person that doesn't just stop their level of expertise at whatever the latest training is, but takes that training, applies it, and

Speaker 6 comes up with their own philosophy and process for doing what we do at the highest level. My guest is Mike McDonough.
He's the work comp renegade, and you want to dial in on this episode.

Speaker 6 Before we get there, I'm going to save the advertisement and just say, I love you for listening to this show. Thank you for listening to this show.

Speaker 6 If you enjoy these episodes, if you're enjoying the two episodes a week cadence, tell a friend, share an episode, you know, hit the retweet button on Twitter, maybe go over to iTunes, leave me a rating and review.

Speaker 6 That just helps more people in our business who are looking for resources find this show and hopefully

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Speaker 6 Because that's really why I do the show: I just want to connect you with people that can help you, or help your agency, or help someone you know. And

Speaker 6 I just

Speaker 6 want to say thank you. So, all right, guys, let's get to Mike McDonough.

Speaker 7 The way that you approach your business with both passion and

Speaker 7 a bit of

Speaker 7 panache and also expertise, I think that mashup is just interesting to me, regardless. But I think what I'm

Speaker 7 well, really, so I, you had the episode with David, which everyone who's listening to this should go back.

Speaker 7 I'll make sure that's linked up, or just go to Crothers' Power Producers podcast and listen to the episode you did because I thought it was awesome.

Speaker 7 I don't necessarily want to spend a ton of time in your, in your background, because I think that episode did a tremendous job of telling, you know, your your story, how you got to this spot.

Speaker 5 I agree.

Speaker 7 But what I'm really interested in, and just in general, is

Speaker 7 at a high level, the idea of taking it from

Speaker 7 where everyone else is, right? So there's kind of how everyone else approaches their work. And we could even, we could talk comp specifically, but just in general.
And then

Speaker 7 Some people take a step further. And I feel like you have gone to the point of pure expertise, right?

Speaker 7 Like you, you really know, you have a defined process that you've spent time whittling away at to deliver a product in a very, you know,

Speaker 7 you've thought about it, you've put effort. It's not just like someone told you how to do it and you're executing a plan.
You've really spent time. How do you get to that place?

Speaker 7 That's what I'm really interested in because I think specifically from the comp side, this is where how I'm growing my business. I find it tremendously interesting.
I love being a value provider.

Speaker 7 I hate being associated in any way mentally with being just quoting and price. You know, I just don't like that.
I like providing value. So I'm on this path.
But

Speaker 7 so specifically to comp, it makes sense. But I think in general, if someone was really interested in property, I feel like they have a lot to learn from you as well.

Speaker 7 Does that make sense what I'm asking you?

Speaker 5 100%.

Speaker 5 100%.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I can give you my spin on that because I see it on a daily basis, what the issue is and where the disconnect is for most brokers.

Speaker 5 So Let's go tell me let's get it when it when it between workers comp and the other lines of insurance there's a huge disconnect and I don't think anybody's identified it where I did identify it and that's where I've been able to make a difference but it's not just about learning something it's like if you're gonna be good at it you know I mean look at Brady right look at Tom Brady yeah

Speaker 5 he took it to a whole nother level didn't he

Speaker 5 And that's really what it's about. So do you want to just write insurance and place policies? Do you want to have a little bit of knowledge? Or do you really want to knock it out of the park?

Speaker 5 And really, it's not about the

Speaker 5 workers' comp and all that stuff. It's, you know, what you're here helping people, and it's just like you're here to provide solutions.

Speaker 5 And if you provide the solutions, you're going to get paid, and you're going to get paid a lot. There's going to be a lot more people who want your solutions, right?

Speaker 5 So that's that's really what I've done. So let me know when you want to turn on the mic.
We're going right now,

Speaker 5 right now. Yeah.
All right. We're going.

Speaker 7 So here's what I'll say. I think that

Speaker 7 wherever you want to start, you start. Because I think that I'm really into, I want to see where you take it.
And

Speaker 7 I'll guide from there. But that disconnect that you're talking about, like just,

Speaker 7 I feel like most people don't even take the step to learn it. Most people don't even take that step.

Speaker 5 Correct. Correct.

Speaker 7 There's then the next gear, right? So you do take the time, you go get the certification or whatever. There's there's plenty of CICs that still struggle to sell shit so why

Speaker 7 what you know take me through that thought process how do you keep making those jumps those leaps forward

Speaker 5 okay that's and then this is all you know great stuff

Speaker 5 as far as any certification even that doesn't really put you at the level

Speaker 5 you know it helps it shows that you took a another step that maybe somebody else wasn't willing to take so um

Speaker 5 any program that you can do to better yourself, I'm always for, and it's always going to move you in the right direction. What I've seen in Workers Comp

Speaker 5 compared to all the other lines of insurance is the huge disconnect because if there's an auto accident, you know,

Speaker 5 you have them call the insurance company.

Speaker 5 Car goes to the body shop, car is fixed in 10 days, get the car back, no injuries, you know, bam, you know, clean, closed.

Speaker 5 Homeowners, you know, there's a a water leak, you know, they fix the water, water damage, new carpet, new floor, whatever it happens to be, you know, claim closed, right?

Speaker 5 And then, you know, but when you get to workers' car, or even in general liability, somebody slips and falls and breaks their leg, you know, it's a liability claim.

Speaker 5 So, okay, the insurance company paid $150,000, claim closed. So what happens is, is that I think brokers

Speaker 5 In their minds, they're not claims examiners, which they're not. They're not trained claims examiners.
We're not. We're here to sell the product.

Speaker 5 But what I see is that you can't treat workers' comp like an auto claim, like a home claim, or like a

Speaker 5 liability claim. You're dealing with a human being, you're dealing with injuries, and so you have to get involved

Speaker 5 to just turn it over to the insurance companies and let the claims examiner.

Speaker 5 You're basically letting some person you have no relationship with deal with your client who you signed up for, you know, basically signed up their insurance.

Speaker 5 And so now their claims examiner is doing things and every claims examiner is different. So you're basically introducing somebody that your client doesn't even know.

Speaker 5 So they're talking to a stranger, so to speak. And then more importantly, is if you get an injured worker and they really don't know the system, and so they're talking to a stranger, so it just really

Speaker 5 makes the the the claim situation a little more difficult and the employee gets really uncomfortable. And there's a lot more delays in workers comp because there's medical treatments, there

Speaker 5 has to be approvals for certain

Speaker 5 tests like MRIs, or if you have to go and have to physical therapy or there's a certain prescription drug, everything has to be approved. And so those are all delays.

Speaker 5 So if you as the broker turn it over to the insurance company and think you've done your job, well, here's a couple of things.

Speaker 5 The injured worker is lost in the system and your employer client is lost in the system, and they don't really know who to turn to.

Speaker 5 And so everybody just thinks, okay, the claims examiner is doing his or her job. And that's the furthest thing from the truth.

Speaker 5 And so what I've realized by digging deep, Ryan, into the weeds, so to speak, is that I've learned how workers' comp claims are processed. I've learned how the workers' comp claim,

Speaker 5 where the hidden costs are. And so you want to get back to David Carruthers, okay? The guy's a master at this.
When it comes to cost of risk, he's absolutely 150% correct.

Speaker 5 Most employers, you know, they just think that they look at their balance sheet, the cost of doing business, they look at their annual premiums, right?

Speaker 5 Well, the annual premium is part of it, but the hidden cost, the cost of risk is really in the indirect costs, you know, loss of production, time off work, retraining, using, you know, staffing agencies, whatever you have to do to keep your business running, there's additional cost.

Speaker 5 In addition to that, is the unseen cost that, because the claim is out of control, is driving the cost of the claim up, which in essence drives the mod up.

Speaker 5 So there's a lot of moving parts in this thing. So to really understand workers' comp, you need to understand the cost of risk.
Forget premiums.

Speaker 5 Premiums are important, but what's really driving the cost, understanding your client's business, you know, setting up, you know,

Speaker 5 proactive programs, you know, getting into the loss control. You know, David will go in and ask, you know, who's your safety advisor? And he asks all the different questions.

Speaker 5 And the people normally don't have those positions in place. Well, those are all the things that drive workers' comp claims.
So there's a lot of things involved there.

Speaker 5 But anyways, to me, the disconnect.

Speaker 5 is that the brokers agents think that it's just the insurance company and the claims examiner's job and that's not

Speaker 5 in my agency, we handle an auto claim just like we handle a work home claim. We don't ever refer our clients to strangers.
We will interact and we will always introduce and whatever it takes.

Speaker 5 But before they call the body shop, we let the body shop know they're coming.

Speaker 5 If they're going to a doctor's office, we don't ever want our clients dealing with strangers because what happens is that's where they get upset.

Speaker 5 And if you're not providing the service, Ryan, that's why people are going to the internet looking for cheaper auto insurance, home insurance.

Speaker 5 If the broker is not really providing any service, why not buy online?

Speaker 5 So,

Speaker 7 wow. All right.
So, this idea of don't let your clients deal with strangers is a hard one, is a hard one for me.

Speaker 7 Not hard, like I think you're wrong, hard. Like, it's something that I actually have started.

Speaker 7 So, when I launched my agency, one of the core ideas was I wanted to be, I wanted to partner, knowing that I was a bootstrapping startup agency, single person.

Speaker 7 I was not coming into this with a stack of cash that I could have a service person. I was doing it by myself.

Speaker 7 So one of the core ideas was partnering with carriers that had best-in-class customer care centers or service centers, right? So I'm talking about like a Cincinnati or a Hanover.

Speaker 7 Those are my number one and number two carriers just for that reason.

Speaker 7 And the idea was if

Speaker 7 if I can work closely with them so it feels very much like a seamless experience, then that allows me to focus on

Speaker 7 being an advisor, selling, finding new clients, working with clients, delivering services.

Speaker 7 And I then didn't have to worry about things like managing people, setting up all those kinds of systems because I had the carriers backing me up.

Speaker 5 Now,

Speaker 7 what I'll say is, in practice, I've found, I have found, and I've said this on the podcast before, Cincinnati Service Center is tremendous. It is essentially like having someone sitting behind me.

Speaker 7 When one of them interacts with my clients, I've gotten nothing but

Speaker 7 positive feedback from the clients after I've called them and said, hey, how was your experience? Nothing but positive feedback. That being said,

Speaker 7 the deeper I get into the business and now that I'm starting to work with some

Speaker 7 maybe call them larger, smaller, middle market clients,

Speaker 7 that does not feel like the best way to do business. If I have a $500 bop,

Speaker 7 not that that person should not get a grade A experience from me, but that feels like the type of interaction where,

Speaker 7 and then I don't even know.

Speaker 7 I will say I'm starting to question this philosophy, not because I think the customer, the

Speaker 7 service centers do a bad job, at least some of the ones that I partner with, but

Speaker 7 I really do believe that that in order for us to be successful in the future,

Speaker 7 this is the path that you are describing. The automation path is the other path, but you really have to be one way or the other.

Speaker 7 You have to be all digital, you know, everything is automation, low touch, and be the best at that version, or you need to go high touch, service, and that kind of, and anything in the middle, I think, is going to get the crap beat out of them.

Speaker 7 That's where my mind is. I don't know.

Speaker 5 Well, I think you're correct on both fronts.

Speaker 5 You're right. Somebody with a 500 bop and I have the philosophy, I don't care if it's 500 bop or 500,000 policy, a customer is a customer.
Yeah. You do have to realize there's costs involved.

Speaker 5 And so you want to make sure that you're spending your money wisely. But if you're going to use a service center like that and you believe in them, that's fine.

Speaker 5 You don't need to interact with the client every time.

Speaker 5 But when you're signing a client up, you can let them know that, hey, as part of our services, we're connected to this service service center and you know we use them and and the reason why we use them primarily is because of the service they provide and that's where we like to you know steer most of our clients and is that okay with you and so forth you know it's really it's not up to your decision it's up to the client so when you sign on a new client it's like how do you want to be serviced you like text you like email you like phone call right so think of it as a restaurant's five-star restaurant when they walk in the door they made or day you want to drink appetizers whatever right come by can I get you anything that's how you know insurance needs to be as well and if you get

Speaker 5 your clients they expect that kind of service and so we don't get involved in every aspect of it I'm just saying is that we keep transparency with our clients so that they understand through the process so they don't get confused if they do get confused they know who to turn to does that make sense It does.

Speaker 7 No, it makes complete sense.

Speaker 5 Because if you listen to Gary Vee, he says the people that are the Jetsons are the ones that are going to lose. The ones that are the Flintstones are going to win.

Speaker 5 What he's basically saying is that touch with the client. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Okay,

Speaker 5 there's a niche and there is a part for tech. But when it comes down to a middle market business owner that has 100 employees, they have benefits.

Speaker 5 They've got HR, they've got moving parts, manufacturing, truck drivers, you know, cost of risk, right?

Speaker 5 You need to go on there and give them the best program possible to be successful in their business and being that expert on the safety, bringing in that HRA component, knowing that labor attorney that can, you know, so in other words, I've surrounded myself with expertise in all the other areas.

Speaker 5 So they don't work for me, they're not on my payroll, but

Speaker 5 they're part of my resources. And so my clients see me as the person to go to.

Speaker 5 I mean, I have people call me and ask me like the simplest stuff because it's just like, hey, Mike's always steered me the right way.

Speaker 5 So it's about giving that extra touch and if you look at david's book the two minutes right it's the same thing we're in the business to to to solve problems that's what we're paid to do we're not paid to place policies i mean you you and i i know we can go to any grammar school right now get kids out of kindergarten and teach them how to go online and and place a work comp policy i think we could there's the payroll here's this and that boom you get a quote right that's that's the last piece right

Speaker 5 it's looking at the culture meeting with that business owner.

Speaker 5 Ryan, when I walk into an account, and David knows this too, when you look at a mod that's 150, that tells me like probably 20 different things. Okay.

Speaker 5 It's not just they've had claims. It's not just there's frequency.
It's not that they've had a severity. It tells me they have a culture problem.
It tells me they probably have even a hiring problem.

Speaker 5 I bet you, and not bet you, when I go in there, 95% of the time, their mod is over 100, I sit down with them. Can I see your safety manual? Don't have one.

Speaker 5 Are your IIPP logs up to date? What are those? Let me see your employee handbook. You know, let me see, you know, all these different things, right?

Speaker 5 And so what I'm getting at is that, you know, hey, when's the last time you did a training? Well, we haven't done one in over a year, okay?

Speaker 5 So what are your hiring practicing? Okay. And are you following the handbook? Okay, so I see here in your handbook, you have disciplinary actions for this.

Speaker 5 How often are you writing up employees for infractions? Oh, you know, but here would happen. here's what happened ryan so many employers today

Speaker 5 they're so stressed out about you know making money which we all are but what happens is they would rather keep a bad employee on the books okay than fire them because they know it takes a lot more time and money to retrain that person but in reality that bad employee is going to cost them more in the long run than it is to let them go and retrain and hire somebody.

Speaker 5 So if they're not following their own handbook and they're not writing people up, those are the ones that eventually are going to file the work comp plan.

Speaker 5 They're going to come back and they're going to cost you a lot of money. So there's a lot of things to identify.

Speaker 7 I was, so again, you, you know, I'm just getting back into the business and really,

Speaker 7 you know, I was a policy placer the first eight years, right? I educated, I'd say my value proposition was over educating all the YouTube videos and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 7 But in terms like of like a real tactician,

Speaker 7 you know, it just wasn't, I just wasn't there yet. I didn't, I hadn't evolved into that place.
And that's very much where I'm going now.

Speaker 7 And I'm starting to have higher level discussions with bigger companies that have more dynamic things going on. And I was just, I was walking them through just some of the basics.

Speaker 7 A company that was referred to me, just some of the basics of comp and some of the basic ideas.

Speaker 7 And the guy's going, he's going, yeah, you know, we just kind of, they just kind of tell me if something happens. And then, you know, because I was asking him, how do you file a claim?

Speaker 7 Like, how does that look like? Like, if someone gets hurt, what happens? Like, just walking me through. I just was trying to ask like a high-level question to get him talking about his process.

Speaker 7 And it was, I mean, here's a guy who, he's got a mod over one. He's paying $200,000 for comp.

Speaker 7 And he has,

Speaker 7 you could just see, there was no... It just, he was just working under the assumption that it just was what it was.
Hey, this is what it is, man. You just do this and they come in.

Speaker 7 They get hurt sometimes, and try not to get them hurt. You know, we want to be safe, but that happened, you know, he's just saying shit like that.

Speaker 7 And I was like, whoa, like, you know, you would looking at this business from the outside, you would think these guys are

Speaker 7 have everything together. And it was obvious with the first question that that was not the case.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And that brings up a good point because I actually talk about that in my book:

Speaker 5 is that the myth for the employers is that

Speaker 5 it's mandatory that we carry the coverage.

Speaker 5 The insurance companies have control over the premiums.

Speaker 5 It's based upon my payroll. I have claims.
My rates go up and that's the way the system is. And that's the furthest thing from the truth.

Speaker 5 So that client that you're mentioning right now, that's part of the myth. Until somebody like yourself that comes in that knows,

Speaker 5 Are you open to a second opinion? Let me show you. So you do what David teaches.
You pull out the mod, right?

Speaker 5 you show you go over the loss runs you you pull out the the reasons why the mod is the way it is and then you start backtracking let me see your loss control let me see your safety manual they don't have these things let me see your hiring practices so

Speaker 5 once an employer knows that they can do certain things to reduce their cost of insurance and i'm not talking premiums cost of their insurance which is the cost of the risk is by having because basically the best claim is no claim and the second best claim is a closed claim but these claims that stay open and ongoing medical treatments and indemnity going up and reserves going up and then surgery, and then some of them, you know, in different states, the attorneys get involved.

Speaker 5 And, you know, these things get drawn out. But the thing is,

Speaker 5 is that the work comp system is a money maker for everybody except for the employer. And so that's why as advisors, we want to identify the costs, cost of risk, indirect costs, premiums, everything.

Speaker 5 Everything comes together, but the employer doesn't need to understand workers' comp.

Speaker 5 They only need to understand the point is if I have an injury, I report it right away, and I need somebody that knows more than me, that can help me through the process, help me reduce my costs.

Speaker 5 Doesn't need to necessarily teach me all about workers' comp, but they're there as a strategic partner that I know that I can trust. is looking out for my best interests of my business.

Speaker 5 And that's really what every employer is looking for.

Speaker 5 It's what you and i look for you know and anybody that we're using for our business you want an it guy or i.t person you want somebody that's going to be you know helpful and reasonable and charge fair rates and not take advantage of your ignorance right and so that's what i see a lot in workers comp is that there's a lot of advantage taking of the ignorance of the employers

Speaker 5 and um once the employer understands that they can control their costs and and and like David shows them and on the balance sheet and you're showing them the true cost that wakes them up especially if you show them over a three-year period look you spent $72,000 extra in workers' comp that you didn't need to spend had you done these things well that wakes people up and so that's really all we're doing is we're just like I said providing solutions to problems and workers' comp there's big problems so you can see that it's not an auto accident.

Speaker 5 It's not a slip and fall and it's not a water claim or a theft out of a car claim. You're dealing with human beings.
You're dealing with doctors. You're dealing with legal.

Speaker 5 I mean, there's a lot of things that are going on there that the employer is not aware of. And so they don't have the time.

Speaker 5 Now with COVID, now you've got another thing to worry about because now you've got additional compliance. Okay.
Another HR issue. So they're bombarded with compliance.

Speaker 5 So if you can come in and Ryan, I applaud you for the courses you've taken because you've taken a bigger step than probably 90% of the brokers out there because you've already seen that, hey, in order to get where I need to go I have to be better at my game and so you went outside and you're bringing in people that know more than you just like I have and I continue to bring more people that know more than me I am always about hiring people smarter than me that know more than me because that's how I learn and I'm not afraid to ask questions and I'm not afraid to say I don't know something and so when I get around somebody like you guys were at that table in San Diego I mean, it was all I could tell.

Speaker 5 You know, you guys wanted to learn. You guys were like sponges.
Look at Cass. Cass is writing these big, he's landing these big whales now, right?

Speaker 5 By being associated with David Caruthers and learning from people like myself and you and everybody else in the industry.

Speaker 5 And that's what I love about IAOA is that we're all connected and helping one another. There's no egos here.
There's no about hiding secrets. We're all just open books.

Speaker 5 And that's what I appreciate about this program.

Speaker 7 Yeah,

Speaker 7 I have to

Speaker 7 second everything you said. You know,

Speaker 7 when I first got in the business 15 years ago,

Speaker 7 and so that's when I, so my history is those 15 years. And looking at the difference in widespread openness from then to now makes me very happy, makes me very bullish on the industry.
Because today,

Speaker 7 you can pick up the phone and call somebody, and obviously, as long as you're respectful of their time, and ask them questions about how they developed an expertise or how they approach a certain aspect of their business.

Speaker 7 And there's a very good chance that they're going to give you that time. And

Speaker 7 literally, just here's exactly what I do.

Speaker 7 You know, just here is how I solve that problem. And I don't know that it has always been that way, but it is definitely groups like IAOA and there are others.

Speaker 7 CAS's group is another great example where they've just developed these cultures where, you know, you just share exactly how you do the thing. There's no, well,

Speaker 7 this is my little secret that I'm going to cut out because I don't want you to know it because that makes me less valuable. I mean, there's just too much business for that to be the case.

Speaker 7 And the other side of it is, and I learned this from speaking, from doing keynote speaking,

Speaker 7 most people just are never going to do the work. They're just never going to do the work.
Like, there's, there will be

Speaker 7 within two days of this going live, 500 people have listened to it. And I bet one takes action on what I agree.

Speaker 5 I have one, maybe. One

Speaker 5 agree.

Speaker 7 So it's why it's so exciting to be on. It's why I I love doing this show is because

Speaker 7 you do stuff. You take action.
You make things happen. And being able to associate with those people, it just elevates you.

Speaker 7 Even if you can't do that thing right at that moment, and this is kind of where I want to take this conversation is,

Speaker 7 you know, some of the stuff that you've talked about is high-level stuff, injury management, experience modification work, you know, massaging culture, helping define roles, hiring stuff.

Speaker 7 That feels like a lot of really big bites. So, you know, what, like at the beginning, when you were first starting to develop your process, what were a few of the items that,

Speaker 7 or even if you're giving advice to someone like myself who's getting started, what are some of the first bites into this that you could take to be a value provider where you don't have to have 20 years of expertise?

Speaker 5 Great, great, great question.

Speaker 5 So, you have to start somewhere. So,

Speaker 5 the first work comp policy that you write the first claim that you get just make sure that you just don't turn it over to the insurance company that if you're gonna report the claim because it's reportable that you engage with that you find out right away once okay so you tell your client call in the claim when you get the claims information including the claim number you know please share that with me and then i will be in contact with your claims examiner so then once you get it from xyz carrier, you get his or her name, their email address, you just send them a quick note, say, hey, I'm the broker for XYZ company,

Speaker 5 and I would like to be kept in the loop on this claim. And so they will actually teach you.

Speaker 5 They don't mind teaching you. If you get some good examiners, now you might get somebody that's younger and maybe been around a couple of years.

Speaker 5 But you get a seasoned veteran that's been around 15, 20 years. They love sharing their knowledge.

Speaker 5 And so when they say, okay, well, we're going to do this and I'm going to set this up or I'm going to put the claim on delay or whatever, what you can do is just say, hey, could you please explain to me why you want to delay the claim?

Speaker 5 And they'll explain it to you. Or we're going to deny the claim.
So as you start hearing, that's what I did.

Speaker 5 So that's what happened was, and I don't remember the term exactly, but way back when, I used to do pretty much the same thing is I

Speaker 5 would treat insurance pretty much the same way. Of course, I always try to add value adds, but can't really do it in the property and the GL.

Speaker 5 I mean you can do a degree, but I was on a claim with a claims examiner and she said something that didn't sound right.

Speaker 5 So I asked her a question, which made me start looking things up and asking more questions. And so that's really how I got started is I just got started, started getting involved in claims.

Speaker 5 Then what I did is I hired somebody that knew claims management. And then that I had that person teach me as well along the way.

Speaker 5 So here I'm paying a third party and we're working together and she's explaining to me why she's making the decision. She started introducing me to defense attorneys.

Speaker 5 So it was an outside source that I decided to hire because I figured I don't know the claims. I don't know enough.
So I hired somebody with 20 years experience that did know the claims.

Speaker 5 And I started noticing the impact that she was making right off the bat with my claims, the reserves. the mods were going down.
I mean, claims were closing faster. And so it's like, you know what?

Speaker 5 I want more of this, you know. However, I got to the point where, you know,

Speaker 5 I wanted to learn as well. And it just, I've, you know, been able to learn it as well as some of them.
But I have a 25-year claims manager, and she knows claims like inside and out.

Speaker 5 I'll never be at her level, but I don't need to be at her level. I know enough just to,

Speaker 5 you know. to talk to an employer that's having a lot of pain.
But to answer your question is you have to start somewhere. so start getting engaged from the first claim that you have

Speaker 7 I mean I'm assuming

Speaker 7 there's so there's there's two types of agencies right there's the agencies that probably want to be involved but don't necessarily know what to do with a lot of this stuff when it comes in or it's more just transactional and then there's the agencies that aren't even tracking the claims and are just you know, here's the company phone number.

Speaker 7 You know, I always think it's funny, the page, everyone has that page on their website with like the name of the company and then the phone number to the claims department.

Speaker 7 And that page has always made me feel weird. I'm not saying it's wrong

Speaker 7 because I know like some people do it for like Saturdays and Sundays or maybe they're not there and they want to be able to give their customers a resource. But at the same time,

Speaker 7 that page has always made me feel weird because it feels very disconnected versus the classic agency value proposition.

Speaker 7 And then you just have this page listed with phone numbers where you're completely bypassed in the process of of of handling the claim to begin with

Speaker 5 right and so that's where the cost of controlling the claim starts and so

Speaker 5 most

Speaker 5 agencies that i'm aware of when an injury is called in they call it right into the carrier and if you notice some of the carriers now offer a triage and the reason why they offer a triage because they It does serve two things.

Speaker 5 It does give you immediate, you know, attention where you're talking to an occupational nurse. But the insurance company, why would they offer a free triage service included in their program?

Speaker 5 Because they want you reporting everything. Why? Because it goes to NCCI or in California, the Bureau and so forth.
So my clients, I have my own triage.

Speaker 5 And the reason why I set that up is not to not report claims. It's to mitigate the number of claims that go to the carrier that shouldn't have to go there.

Speaker 5 If somebody just like bumps their arm and you get on with a triage nurse and the triage nurse says, hey, go home, self-care, ice it, maybe take an ibuprofen.

Speaker 5 If you're not feeling better tomorrow, then we'll send you to the clinic. Well, a lot of those never go to the clinic.
So that claim never has to be reported. So 60%

Speaker 5 of our claims that come in through my agency are never reported to the carrier because of the triage.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 if the injury does go to the point where they go to the medical clinic and there are some work restrictions by rule, now you have to report that injury. However, we've already talked to the employer.

Speaker 5 We've seen the work restrictions from the doctor. Can't lift more than 10 pounds, no bending and stooping more than 30 minutes, whatever the situation is, and the employer says I can accommodate.

Speaker 5 So now, now when we report it to the insurance company, we're going to report it to the insurance company by saying, okay, so-and-so has restrictions. We're going to accommodate these restrictions.

Speaker 5 It's a medical only. So what we're telling the insurance company is do not set up an indemnity because we have a return to work program.

Speaker 5 we're offering modified duty and the injured worker you know will be you know their medical bills will be paid obviously through the carrier so we're not just having the employer call in a claim blindly to an insurance company and the insurance company doesn't know where the claim is going to go so they're automatically going to set up an indemnity and a medical reserve which ultimately affects them all right yeah so that's why when we say we want to control the injury from the get-go that's why we want to use triage That's why we want them to engage with our agency versus the carrier first.

Speaker 5 The carrier is the support, okay?

Speaker 5 But really, you're the main support because that's why the client hired you

Speaker 5 as their

Speaker 5 professional, the expert that knows workers come, because your whole job is to watch their money, right? So if you just turn them over to the insurance company, you're not really watching their money.

Speaker 5 So you want them to engage with your agency. If it doesn't need to be reported, it doesn't get reported.
If it does, then you set set it up.

Speaker 5 And so we've trained our clients how to report those claims so that when they do get set up, so then within, I don't know, two to three weeks, we request the loss runs, we get a copy, and we make sure it's only set up with a medical reserve.

Speaker 5 There's nothing there for indemnity. If there is, we call the courier and we question it and have them remove it.

Speaker 7 Is there, are you taking on any liability by having that triage service in terms of, say, the triage nurse does say,

Speaker 7 ICE it, whatever, three days later, the employee comes back and now maybe they've been working through pain, there's an injury, like, and now it's something worse.

Speaker 7 Is there any additional liability that you're taking on as an agency by operating in this way?

Speaker 5 That's a good question. And I mean, obviously, if anything happened, they could absolutely name my agency.
However, the triage

Speaker 5 in your agreement, they're the ones taking on the liability. They're the medical professional.

Speaker 7 Gotcha.

Speaker 5 So yeah, so we're doing our job by getting them to an occupational nurse that understands workers' comp injuries right away. If they misdiagnose it or something like that,

Speaker 5 then that's on the triage nurse. You know what I'm saying? Can they name my agency? I'm sure they certainly could.
I can tell you in the last 13 years, that's never happened. Yeah.

Speaker 5 And on the flip side of that the employer actually by having a triage is taking the liability off their managers for example let's say I own a manufacturing company and I'm in Europe with my family my general manager is running the company while I'm gone and so you know Johnny or Susie gets injured and they come in and they say well do you want to go see a doctor no I'm okay okay go ahead and get back to work well then Johnny or Susie passes out See, and then they end up in the hospital.

Speaker 5 That's a liability for an employer. So that's why another reason it's twofold is the triage right then and there.
Think of it as the school nurse.

Speaker 5 You know, somebody falls down on the playground, they take him in the school nurse's office to assess the injury.

Speaker 5 If Johnny's too bad, they'll call mom or dad to come pick him up and take him to the doctor. Otherwise, they'll check him out, okay, he can get back to class or whatever the situation is.

Speaker 5 So, that's kind of what triage does on an elementary level. But it's just about, you know, it does a lot of things.

Speaker 5 So, it starts the data, it's got it's it's the uh the call is recorded, so the injured worker is giving their statement, the forms are being completed on so it's doing a lot of things in the system so getting back to your question could something happen yes but the liability is is on the triage and um

Speaker 5 that's that's you know i i haven't looked at it any further than that yeah that makes sense i just know to be honest with you

Speaker 7 i kind of already knew the answer but i'm assuming there are

Speaker 7 Our industry likes to ask those kind of questions and for good reason, for good reason. But I do think I get what you're saying.

Speaker 7 So, okay, so what is the feasibility of of a triage nurse for again take let's take my agency right i'm starting to move into the middle market i mean hiring a triage nurse this moment full-time under rogue is not an option for a couple of reasons but are there ways is this someone that you work to have a partnership with are there third-party organizations that you could hire to do this kind of thing like how you know some of the stuff that you i guess here's my question

Speaker 7 i'm sure that there are people listening who who are absolutely bought into what you're doing because i think if they're interested in comp or interested in being value prior in general they'd be crazy not to but i'm also positive that if they're like me they're going i don't know how to deliver those services based on where i'm at currently now in a future state i can absolutely see myself getting there but today

Speaker 7 what Is it just do as much as you can with what you have?

Speaker 7 Are there third parties you can hire out for some of this stuff before you bring them in-house or bring them on full-time?

Speaker 7 Like, how would they start to source some of these pieces as much as possible?

Speaker 5 It's a great question. So there's only a couple really good ones out there.

Speaker 5 And one of the firms is probably one of the largest ones in the country.

Speaker 5 Their starting fee is like $7,500,

Speaker 5 which I know most smaller agencies can't. The firm that I use, because all my clients are on it, I get a discounted rate.

Speaker 5 So if somebody wanted to start that, I mean, I'm happy to introduce them through my triage or whatever. And then eventually when they build up enough, they can go out on their own.

Speaker 5 Then that way there's a one-time setup fee, which is minimal. And then there's no monthly fee.
It's just you pay as you go. So if you use the service, you get a bill.

Speaker 5 So if there's an agency out there that needs triage or wants to consider triage, I'm happy to help them under my label.

Speaker 5 And then, you know, if they have four or five calls, we'll just send them a bill for those calls and that agency reimburses us. So that way they can start getting the ball rolling in their agency.

Speaker 5 Once they start writing more workers' comps, start taking on more injuries, and they can branch out on their own. And, you know, we just release them.
They can set up their own account, you know. But

Speaker 5 when I started out, I sent, you know, I made an agreement that I would get all my clients on the triage services. And so they gave me a break.
And so I get a wholesale break.

Speaker 5 And so I've been able to do that. And so

Speaker 5 that's how I did it. So that's how you would do it.

Speaker 5 otherwise if you want to go directly to that trio service if anybody wants to PM me or email me I'm happy to help them and put them in contact with the owners and they can see what they can work out but there's a little bit more upfront cost

Speaker 5 and if they can afford it then then great otherwise they can take the second option I'm happy to help them do it you know yeah

Speaker 7 No, that's great. I appreciate making that offer to the audience.
And,

Speaker 7 you know,

Speaker 7 I'm probably going to want to talk to you offline about some of that stuff, too.

Speaker 7 So, okay, so we've talked a lot about comp and about tactical insurance stuff, which is, I could ask a thousand more questions, but

Speaker 7 there's a whole nother piece to what you do that the sales and marketing guy in me finds incredible. And I just want to talk through the work comp renegade, like the brand, the idea of it,

Speaker 7 how you've put it together.

Speaker 7 Why,

Speaker 7 you know, I've seen comp shield, I've seen, you know, things like that. And whoever has comp shield, it's not a knock.

Speaker 7 It's just, you know, that's a very kind of classic insurance risk management based branding for a product or process. Nothing wrong with that, not a knock.

Speaker 7 You went with work comp renegade and you have two samurai swords in your logo. So I'm just, I love it.
I'm just super interested in why,

Speaker 7 you know, why so bold? Like, what is it about it that you like, why did you go that direction direction versus, you know, something maybe a little more traditional?

Speaker 5 Well, that's a great question.

Speaker 5 I didn't come up with a name.

Speaker 5 Doing what I've done over all these years,

Speaker 5 engaging my clients,

Speaker 5 having them attend depositions.

Speaker 5 So the purpose of that is that the employer gets to see the defense attorney that's representing them to see if they're asking good questions, if they're actually working on their behalf.

Speaker 5 They see see their 15-year employee on the other side of the table you know lying under oath

Speaker 5 then they see that there's no legitimate injury the employee was you know let go for you know cause and you know decided to hire work

Speaker 5 hire an attorney and file a work comp claim and so you know the employer is paying out a $15,000 settlement.

Speaker 5 After seeing that multiple times, an employer gets really hardened to the system. They become cynical, just like everybody else in the system.

Speaker 5 And when they see their hard-earned money going out to a system that's broke,

Speaker 5 they, you know, basically said to me one day, you know what, Mike, there has to be a revolt. And I said, you know, I'm working on that.
So in reality, what I am is I'm an advocate.

Speaker 5 In other words, when they hire me as their representative, Ryan, when that claim, like when it's first called into triage and we're looking at the work status report, we're accommodating injuries and we're reducing and eliminating indemnity.

Speaker 5 And we have a staff that is bilingual that's talking to the injured worker, and we're reducing litigation and so forth.

Speaker 5 Really, that's really what we're doing: we're an advocate for the injured worker, making sure they're getting prompt medical attention, and at the same time, that the employer's dollars are being watched step by step.

Speaker 5 And so,

Speaker 5 I was working on doing some marketing, and and this woman referred me to this guy that does copy writing out of uh Canada.

Speaker 5 And so, he's like, You know, why don't you just send me a little bit of information about your business and what you do? So, I, you know, gave him a couple pages of this is what I do.

Speaker 5 And so, he calls me up. We're talking about it.
He goes, Why, man? He goes, I've never seen anything like this, never heard of any, you know, broker ever doing anything like that.

Speaker 5 He goes, You're kind of like a renegade.

Speaker 5 So, I said, Yeah, I kind of am. And so, anyways, um, he came up with the name Workers' Comp renegade and then we sent it out to

Speaker 5 a graphic artist and she came back with that logo and so I sent it out to a lot of people and I got you know a lot of I'd say eight out of ten you know or eighty out of a hundred or whatever but most people liked the logo and said yeah I love it and I showed it to other people I showed it to defense attorneys claims examiners people within the system And they're like, this is awesome.

Speaker 5 Mike, you got to go with it. So that's why I kept that, you know, chose that logo.

Speaker 5 uh i kept the name and uh you know people understand that yeah i mean when they see what i do they say you are the right

Speaker 5 and so it's kind of like taking off from that yeah

Speaker 7 do you um

Speaker 7 i mean i i think it's tremendous because for for for all the reasons um that i think it's memorable it's obviously a um a pattern breaker, which is the big part for me. I think that

Speaker 7 so much of the struggle that agents have on a day-to-day basis is they're just, they fit the pattern. They do not break the pattern of what people are expecting.

Speaker 7 And therefore, there's no clear delineation, even if they are real value providers.

Speaker 7 Their brand, the way they talk, the way they present themselves is so exactly what clients are expecting that they don't even give their time or attention to someone.

Speaker 7 And when I see two samurai swords and workers come renegade,

Speaker 7 you can't help but stop and go,

Speaker 7 even if I don't like this guy, there's something different, right?

Speaker 7 There's something I need to at least figure out what's going on here because this is so much different than what I would normally expect.

Speaker 7 And I think for that reason alone, not to mention the fact that you have all the substance behind it, but for that reason alone, to me, it's absolutely brilliant.

Speaker 7 And I'm, you know, the very first time I saw it, I was like, this is awesome.

Speaker 5 Well, I appreciate that, Ryan. It means a lot to me, especially coming from you and somebody who's spent a lot of time on social media, and you know how perception is everything, right?

Speaker 5 And so, but here to your point, go back to that client that you said that their model is over 100 and their premium is like $200,000, right?

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 the agent that's handling that account now, see.

Speaker 5 You're taking the time to get certified, learn more, get people like me on a podcast, learning from people like David Carruthers.

Speaker 5 So you are doing exactly what I did, is you need to keep asking and keep engaging and creating your own network of resources and so forth to put yourself on that platform.

Speaker 5 But that broker is eventually going to lose that account to either somebody like you, myself, or David Caruthers or Cass.

Speaker 5 So let's ask the brokers out there in Broker Nation right now, right?

Speaker 5 What's holding you back?

Speaker 5 What conversations are you having?

Speaker 5 Are you not willing to take the steps to learn it? You don't have the time? You don't care?

Speaker 5 What's holding you back? Because you know what? What I'm doing, anybody else can do themselves if they're willing to take the time. Now, you don't need to take it to the level I have.

Speaker 5 I chose to do this because I want to be at that authority, that expert platform.

Speaker 5 When I walk in, I could walk into a Fortune 500 company right now with my team and beat any of the largest brokers, Marsh, Aon, I don't care.

Speaker 5 Because I know their brokers aren't as educated into the workers' comp.

Speaker 5 They haven't done the homework, the resource. I know every component and you can throw pretty much any question at me and I'll know pretty much the answer.

Speaker 5 Just like David Cruthers has done with his, you know, killing commercial. I mean, that guy knows commercial insurance inside and out.
Why?

Speaker 5 He took the time, but he said that his grocery retail set the stage for him in insurance, so he already had that customer service. You have to be in customer service to be in our industry.

Speaker 5 If you're not into people, you're not into customer service, you can make decent money at this.

Speaker 5 You're just going to keep churning.

Speaker 5 I mean, I can't tell you the last time a client left.

Speaker 5 I can't tell you the last time a client left my agency.

Speaker 7 I,

Speaker 7 you know, I think to answer your question that was in there about

Speaker 7 most brokers don't do this level of work. And I think so much of it,

Speaker 7 I think there's two reasons. I think one,

Speaker 5 the

Speaker 5 bar

Speaker 7 has been set so low for so long that it doesn't feel that I don't even know that people necessarily know what's impossible.

Speaker 7 I think conversations like this, I think what Cass is doing on his podcast, the people that are on Carruthers' podcast, you know, now that there are these podcasts and people like yourself are sharing their ideas, I think there are more people waking up to what's possible.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 I think for a long time, it was just, this is what we do. This is how we do it.
You try to get a good market. You try to wedge your way in.

Speaker 7 That's what it is. I think the other side of it is, you know, I...

Speaker 7 I knew I wanted to learn these things so I can be better. That has cut into some of my time selling and prospecting for the last three or four weeks.

Speaker 7 And I know that that's going to snap forward 10,000%

Speaker 7 in the next months. But I think even

Speaker 7 putting in that amount of time, I think people get scared. They get, you know, they get that scarcity mindset that, oh my God, I'll never be able to find the clients.

Speaker 7 And so they just never do it. Because if you don't do it, you have an excuse forever as to why it didn't happen.

Speaker 7 If you put in the work and you don't make it happen, well, now you actually, now that's, that's real failure. and i think that scares the crap out of people and that's why they don't do it

Speaker 5 yeah there's a lot of reasons and i i agree with uh everything that you said and it's just everybody is different and you know the brokerages don't have to learn it to where i have however they could a lot of these larger agencies they have staff in there and they have

Speaker 5 account managers that you know they'll they'll contact the insurance company they'll look at the reserves and all these other things and they're doing a lot of the right things

Speaker 5 but that's not really where you're going to save the money those things help but if you really don't understand the other uh components you need to you need to understand it from from the time the injury is reported till the time that injured worker is released to full duty you really need to understand and so there's are there are brokers out there that can hire claims people and and you know what in in your town right there when you get to that level ryan you can go to uh any of the insurance carriers and you get some claims examiner.

Speaker 5 She's been there for 20 years, right?

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 she doesn't like working for the carrier anymore and she wants to be your full-time claims examiner. I mean, there's ways you can do this, right? So in life,

Speaker 5 whatever you want to do, we can make happen, right?

Speaker 5 But here's on a simple scale.

Speaker 5 If you write two $50,000 work comp premiums a month, for example, just two a month over 24 months, and you're getting, let's say, 15% commission, that's $180,000 in revenue just from 24 policies.

Speaker 5 Yeah. Okay.

Speaker 5 So cut that in half, do $25,000 policy, whatever you want to do, whatever number you want to use.

Speaker 5 But if you want to, you write the workers' comp, you do it right, you get the other lines of business.

Speaker 5 If you really want to, you know, triple, quadruple, you know, your income, workers' comp, cost of risk, getting the other lines of insurance, and just being solution-based minded, you're going to have a bigger agency than you ever dreamed of, you know?

Speaker 7 Mike, I want to be respectful of your time. I appreciate this.
It's been tremendous. I could talk to you for another hour about this stuff.

Speaker 7 And that just gives me another reason to invite you back on the show here sometime in the future. But I appreciate you sharing so much.

Speaker 7 And I, you know, we've slowly getting to know each other a little bit. And

Speaker 7 I'm glad for that because I like what you do. I like the way that you approach it.
And

Speaker 7 it's just, it's a pleasure. Thanks for sharing with the audience, man.
It means a lot to me.

Speaker 5 Well, you know, it means a lot to me. And it was my pleasure.

Speaker 5 And I'm just, you know, glad to help, you know, Broker Nation any way I can, IAOA members, and including yourself, you know, we all just want to become better.

Speaker 5 Every day we, you know, walk into our agencies, trying to become better. I mean, technology is moving.

Speaker 5 you know we're all just trying to keep up with what's going on so there's no fault here and it's just people will find their way it just depends on what direction you want to go but if anybody wants to reach out to me i'm happy to speak to anybody and you know hopefully you know send you in the right direction whatever direction you want to go with workers comp

Speaker 7 that's great man thank you have a good one okay thank you so much

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