RHS 045 - How Tarmika is Making Small Commercial Profitable with Raghav Tanna

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Speaker 4 Hello everyone and welcome back to the show.

Speaker 5 Fired up for today's episode. I'm fired up because I see things changing.
In this episode,

Speaker 5 I explain an experience that I had with

Speaker 5 this tool, with Tarmica, with the tool that I've been talking about for months and months, that really is a cornerstone of rogue risk and what we're trying to do in building this hybrid human digital agency.

Speaker 5 Tarmica is an integral piece of that. And I had just the perfect display of that experience last week.

Speaker 5 And it just happened that two days later, I ended up speaking with Ragathana, the founder of Tarmica, on the show. And I've kind of kept my interview

Speaker 5 with Ragath, I've kind of kept it on.

Speaker 5 I've held on to it.

Speaker 5 I didn't want to interview him right away. I wanted to experience the tool.
I wanted to be involved with it.

Speaker 5 I wanted to have more experience with it before I had him on the show and talk to him about what is happening. And I just see this tool as an absolute game changer for the industry.

Speaker 5 It makes small and micro-commercial profitable. That's what it does.
That is its purpose. And you can, you know, and there's, it's just the beginning.
And I'm so excited.

Speaker 5 And I will say that there are going to be moments where I gush over what this tool is doing.

Speaker 5 But, you know, for a startup agency like mine and for so many other, you know, small and or startup agencies that are struggling to get ahead with small commercial,

Speaker 5 what Tarmica is doing will completely flip the script on what small commercial can be for an agency. And I'm just excited about that.
I'm excited when I find a piece of technology that

Speaker 5 actually works and actually benefits independent agents. There's not some sub,

Speaker 5 you know, some sub-narrative where they're really just trying to build up enough of a business so then they can they can you know flip it and start selling insurance themselves.

Speaker 5 Or if they're constantly, you know, we're always, so many sure techs are constantly both trying to court the independent market while still subverting it at the same time.

Speaker 5 And just none of that is true with Tarmica. So I'm very excited to share this with you.
There probably will be moments where it sounds like a commercial. I don't care.
I believe in this product.

Speaker 5 I don't care if you use it or not. I use it.
I use it every single day. And

Speaker 5 I see small and micro commercial becoming available at scale, making it profitable. And I think you are absolutely nuts if you write micro and small commercial and you're not using Tarmica.

Speaker 5 Now, granted, if they don't have the markets yet where you are, that's a different story. But if they do,

Speaker 5 you need to get on this tool. So that's, that's it.
That's the deal. Um, guys, the only thing I will say other than that is

Speaker 5 go to ryanhanley.com, stop what you're doing, and type in your email address so that you can get new episodes by email. Even if you're subscribed on iTunes or wherever you listen to shows, um,

Speaker 5 get get on the email list because there are some additional things that I sent out. I wrote an article a couple weeks ago and I emailed that out.

Speaker 5 Um, so if you're interested in that kind of stuff, if you're interested in kind of being in line with some of the content that I'm creating and different things that I'm doing, it's mostly just the podcast, but there is some other stuff.

Speaker 5 And if you want to get on that email list, go to ryanhanley.com, just type your email in right at the top, and you'll be on the list. All right.
Let's get on to the interview.

Speaker 6 So, what's up, dude?

Speaker 7 Two, not much. We're having a big week.
Nine new agencies signed yesterday.

Speaker 6 That's amazing. I'm out.
Yeah, dude. So,

Speaker 6 so the platform worked exactly how it's supposed to work yesterday.

Speaker 6 So, I am sitting here, phone rings, boom, pick it up. You know, Ryan, Rogue Risk, whatever.
Hey, man,

Speaker 6 I'm really in a pinch here.

Speaker 6 I called three different agencies a week ago.

Speaker 6 I own an art studio. I'm trying to get into this new building.
I need to have insurance to get in the building. And I expected to be able to have, I expected to have it done by now.

Speaker 6 And no one's gotten back to me a week later. Can you help me? No problem.
Pull up my tarmica installation. I go, I go, hey, man, here's what I'm going to do.

Speaker 6 I've built some special technology where I can get you rates for, you know, right over the phone here. I'm just going to ask you some questions.

Speaker 6 We're going to pull up rates immediately while I'm on the phone. We'll, we'll at least know what you're going to pay within five minutes.
Is that cool? Yeah. That sounds great.

Speaker 6 So just walk through the questions: bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. You know, I mean, pretty straightforward risk.
It's like $600 bop.

Speaker 6 So it's not like I'm making a million dollars, but it took me seven minutes. I get to the end.
I go, so $553

Speaker 6 with Liberty Mutual, you know, all the coverage that he needed. And, you you know, he just needed $1 million, $2 million with a little bit of BPP.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 he's like, he literally goes on the phone. He goes, holy shit.
He goes, I've literally called three agencies and been waiting for a week. And it took me seven minutes on the phone with you.

Speaker 6 He goes, I'm giving you the best Google review ever. So there we go.
Bridged over to Liberty, took his credit card, bing, bang, boom, banged her out the door. He's into his shop today.

Speaker 6 He texts me and said, Hey, man, I just want to thank you again because I'm, you know, I wouldn't have been able to get in today if I hadn't called you and from my perspective like yeah i mean it's a 553 dollar bop you know no one's got

Speaker 6 but it took me all told to take the payment and everything it took me 25 minutes 25 minutes tops from phone call to bound policy binder out the door yep and you gotta pay 200 bucks and here's the other thing dude's gonna talk to people i'm gonna solicit his personal lines so like i just i got done with um

Speaker 6 i got done with uh with that transaction and i texted you, and I was excited because you know, that's you know, I've been putting stuff in the system as as it's come in the door, yeah.

Speaker 6 But I felt like that was the first time that I got a call, I pulled up my portal, I walked the guy right through the portal live on the phone, and and on the phone, I'm getting rates back from the carriers.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and we need to get, but that's the thing, we need to get you more carriers, but that's perfect because yesterday you texted me. I gotta say, yesterday was a great day.

Speaker 7 We had 106 quotes come in yesterday, total. That's awesome.
So 106 people quoted yesterday. You texted me saying you bound a policy.

Speaker 7 John Horvath texted me and said, just got my first submission through Grange. Like, this is fucking great.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it is great. It is great.
I will say, you know, so I was thinking about,

Speaker 6 I was thinking about,

Speaker 6 you know, the next advisory council meeting or whatever. And for those listening at home, you know, people know this, but, you know, I'm on the advisory board for Tarmagung.

Speaker 6 I'll have done an intro for this or whatever. So,

Speaker 6 but, you know some some simple things from a tracking perspective like being able to go back in and like check a box and let you guys know like hey you know i didn't quote cna i markel bounced out i quoted chubb liberty and hanover and i bound with liberty at 553 check you know like that would be that would be you know over time that would be a cool feature like to be able to track like what's going on i'm sure you're tracking some of that but um yeah you know we have a lot of reporting coming through now I mean there's still some kinks we have to work out obviously there always there always will be but we're we're working on all of them day by day getting through it.

Speaker 7 So it's awesome.

Speaker 6 Yeah. No, it um I just uh I was excited because I I could see the vision.
You know when we first met

Speaker 6 You know, so for everyone listening at home, you know, I first I first met you.

Speaker 6 We talked, did we talk on the phone? I think we talked on the phone. Paradiso did a text message intro.
We talked on the phone. We kind of hit it off.
And then I was going out to see Paradiso.

Speaker 6 This is maybe like February. Yeah, February.
And

Speaker 6 I texted you, and I was like, yo, dude, I'm going to be in Connecticut. This is before the Rona.
And I said, yo, I'm going to be in Connecticut. You bombed down.

Speaker 6 And then we probably spent like, what, two, two, two and a half hours just talking shop and stuff. And

Speaker 6 I was just completely sold on

Speaker 6 the value proposition because

Speaker 6 I just couldn't. I mean,

Speaker 6 that was a profitable $553 bot.

Speaker 6 Profit, you know what I mean? So for every other agency that's not using Tarmica, that account right there is unprofitable. That's a profitable transaction for me now.

Speaker 6 It took 25 minutes and I'm going to cross-sell the shit out of them. I'm going to get a great Google review.
Absolutely profitable transaction. And

Speaker 6 that was what I bought into in February when you pitched, you know, when you laid out what it's going to be. And I mean, and we're just, you know, what version are you on?

Speaker 6 I mean, you're just getting started. I mean, think about that.
I mean, I'm like, this is crazy.

Speaker 6 Just you have a bank of people just answering the phone, helping them, building relationships, walking them through, closing deals. I mean, it's, I think,

Speaker 6 I was super jacked up yesterday. I was super.

Speaker 7 Super iteration, like 40, and we'll probably have 100 to go this year alone. So, I mean, it changes every day, but we're working on all the kinks.

Speaker 7 And people like you are the ones that, and when you tell me, hey, I just got this account bound in five minutes or whatever.

Speaker 7 I mean, that's the most important thing to us is: how can you make yourself more profitable over the next year for anything that's under, you know, if you have a hundred thousand dollar account, obviously it's a little different, but if you're talking to these 500 to $10,000 bops, this is the easiest solution you can have.

Speaker 6 Yes, yes. And

Speaker 6 you know, because there's so much discussion today about, uh, you know, like, um,

Speaker 6 you know, so take Carruthers, right? Who I know you've talked to. Yeah.
So Carruthers and some other guys like Carruthers are really, I want to say,

Speaker 6 I don't know what the best way to say this is. They are

Speaker 6 normalizing middle market, right? They're making, they're helping more and more agents feel comfortable, address middle market accounts, which is something that is very uncomfortable.

Speaker 6 You know, unless you, unless you're taught how to do it, it is very uncomfortable to approach somebody with $150,000, $250,000, $400,000, $500,000 a premium and start talking to them before you've ever done it before.

Speaker 6 And they're starting to normalize that. And it feels very sexy.
It feels,

Speaker 6 you know, you sign a big account, you get the macho going, you know,

Speaker 6 whether you're male or female, you know, that machismo, you pull the shoulders back a little bit, you walk a little taller. And

Speaker 6 what I love about this is

Speaker 6 if we all only sold middle market, then 75% of the marketplace would have no, no one to go to. We'd all be going to progressives call center.

Speaker 6 And I believe that independent agents can with a tool like this get the best of both worlds and i don't just want this to be a i don't want this to just be a pitch for tarmunga but i just this is like the perfect time for the call since i came off of that thing yesterday where i was like it worked exactly as it's supposed to and now i'm jacked out of my mind yep i love it that's what i like to hear this is like my favorite type of conversation it's someone like you calling me and saying hey i I had someone call me.

Speaker 7 I plugged it in. It took seven minutes.

Speaker 6 Because realistically, if you had picked the market that you would have went to and went directly to that carrier on the phone chances of them coming back with a quote that you could have found right on the fly there are slim yeah you're taking a you're taking a risk or and here's the other thing what i and this is what i'm kind of doing this is what i've started doing on personal lines too uh shout out to my shorty uh for for telling me to do this even though you know i it seems intuitive now but she she

Speaker 6 my shorty is my wife lauren um

Speaker 6 she uh uh just pulling up the portal while you're on the phone with them. Because what do you normally do, right? You have a piece of paper and I have them.
I mean, look at this right here.

Speaker 6 This is the other side of it. It's this disaster of notes, which no one can see in red ink on a yellow piece of paper, which I can barely read my own handwriting.

Speaker 6 And now I'm supposed to take this and plug this into seven different carriers and figure out, you know, who's, you know, where do I save an extra hundred bucks, Liberty or Hartford?

Speaker 6 You know what I mean? Like, and then what ends up happening is you do a disservice to the client because your CSR goes, I'm not plugging that into seven different carriers.

Speaker 6 I don't care if the quote comes back at $775 or $650. Not to the client, that $125.

Speaker 6 That could mean a world to them.

Speaker 6 But to your CSR, they're like, F it, don't care. Liberty is easy to use.
I'm just going to go to Liberty.

Speaker 6 And that's what it's going to be. And,

Speaker 6 you know, the beauty of, again, of having this ability is you're talking to them on the phone. You're plugging the answers right into the system,

Speaker 6 it's pushing back real rates.

Speaker 6 So now you, you know, even if you want to go in and bridge to two different systems and kind of work some more of the stuff in the system, that's fine, but at least you know where to start. And

Speaker 6 yeah,

Speaker 6 I saw it.

Speaker 6 I just think, you know, I've been, well, obviously I've been plugging it and the listeners of the show know because I do the live read before all the episodes and stuff, but I really believe that what you've built here is

Speaker 6 should rejuvenate um or re-enthusiate bring enthusiasm back

Speaker 6 tell tomorrow's a vacation day bring enthusiasm back to small commercial because you can just fly i mean you could just fly so it doesn't have to be sexy either it's just it's profitable again I think that's the most important part.

Speaker 6 Doesn't have to be sexy if it's profitable. 100%.

Speaker 6 so okay so let's uh so we started with that enormous and ridiculous plug and i do think everyone should go to t-ar-m-i-k-a.com that's t-ar-r-m-i-k-a.com and get your demo today even if you don't buy the system know the system so that when you're ready to step into the big leagues you can uh you can you can know who to talk to but um With that plug out of the way, I just want, I think it's important for the audience, for this audience, for my audience, to know more about you.

Speaker 6 And people have probably heard a little bit about you on Cass's podcast. And I know you've been making the rounds, so maybe they've gotten some of the story.

Speaker 6 But I wanna just briefly get into your background because

Speaker 6 your background is

Speaker 6 your background was crucial to my belief in your ability to make this product. successful long-term for independent agents.
And

Speaker 6 I would just love for you to run that down.

Speaker 7 Yeah, so I started my insurance career, as Chris, our director of sales, always says in diapers. My dad's owned an agency for a very long time.

Speaker 7 And I was in his office when I was young. He used to work out of the basement for a few years when he first started.
So I've always been around it.

Speaker 7 And when I graduated college, it was natural for me to go into the insurance industry. So I worked at Travelers.

Speaker 7 I did that for a few years. And my dad was telling me that he would love for me to come back and work with him,

Speaker 7 help drive new business on the commercial line side only. So I started doing it, and I did that for about two years.
And there was one account in particular where we submitted it.

Speaker 7 Him and I were working on it together.

Speaker 7 It was a referral to him, and I also knew the person. So we're working on it together, and we'd submitted this through our CSRs to seven accounts, seven different carriers.

Speaker 7 I think it got declined by six.

Speaker 6 And this took a long time.

Speaker 7 It was a big account. It had a ton of workers' comp class codes.
It was a staffing firm out of Virginia and it took forever.

Speaker 7 So I got annoyed naturally and I decided I was going to go find a solution. And InsurTech Connect happened to be coming up.
So I went and attended.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 7 I didn't see anything that I thought was valuable

Speaker 7 for an agency. So one thing led to another, and we just decided we're going to start building this thing.

Speaker 6 And I found a co-founder, Ngita,

Speaker 7 contacted my dad's, and one thing led to another. And here we are two years later, and we have a product that agencies are using.

Speaker 6 And how many agencies are on a platform now?

Speaker 7 So we're over 200 now, but we have all these cluster agreements and aggregator agreements. So, in total, agencies that can have access to the system, it's into the thousands now.

Speaker 6 Wow, it's crazy, man. I mean, just how fast it's going.

Speaker 6 So,

Speaker 6 the key piece of that was that you had sold before and that your dad owned an agency.

Speaker 6 And what I really like too is that you were building the product out of, you know, building the product out of the office that your dad actually operated in as well.

Speaker 6 And I mean that in an incredibly positive way because what it said to me was, so my beef with InsurTech has always been that,

Speaker 6 and this is changing rapidly. So this is not really the case, but I think

Speaker 6 for a lot of agents, they're gun shy on

Speaker 6 up-and-coming insurtech products because the curve is very natural.

Speaker 6 Boisterous young CEO comes in, tells everyone that they're doing everything wrong, that the product they're creating is going to solve either one very large problem or every problem they've ever had.

Speaker 6 And either way, they act as if none of us have ever even thought about that problem before. And how could we have been so stupid up until this point not to solve it?

Speaker 6 And then they get smashed into the industry.

Speaker 6 Things don't work out quite the way they think.

Speaker 6 And then they either sell off to someone who's a competitor to us, or the product just kind of dwindles, a few agents use it, and you never hear from them again.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 the hard part about that is

Speaker 6 the innovators in the industry were

Speaker 6 always looking for that edge, and they get into these products and they try it.

Speaker 6 And then a few people follow them, and then they get burnt, and then they're back out, and they're still looking for something.

Speaker 6 And it creates this quagmire.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 what I thought was so interesting was you had a very healthy

Speaker 6 respect for what an independent agent is and does.

Speaker 6 Not just like you understood, but you lived it. You had breathed it.
You had been told no, you'd grind it out

Speaker 6 all the prospecting ways and felt that pain. And I think

Speaker 6 that type of commitment is why some of the people who are in the Tarmica ecosystem, ecosystem who are some of the most respected people in the industry are actually there i mean it's a testament to you um that you have some like paradiso like frank settner you know some of these people who are advisors to you in all different capacities you know but that that are spending time and talking to you i mean they're the right people man yeah i think one of the most important things too is and this is this is coming from the agency side as well but when back when i was on the agency side One of the worst things is to build a relationship with someone,

Speaker 7 a close relationship with someone, actually have the opportunity to quote their business and then not come back for a week. And then that ruins a relationship, right?

Speaker 7 If you lose a client because you never had a real relationship with them, that doesn't matter to me.

Speaker 7 If you actually build a legitimate relationship with someone and you can't quote it in enough time and give them the service that they deserve, that's when you lose a client and that's the worst feeling.

Speaker 7 So that's one of the reasons why we built this is because I never wanted to experience

Speaker 7 a good client relationship where I couldn't deliver.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 7 But you're right. I mean, the people that have come around is one of the reasons where we've been,

Speaker 7 and I never say we're successful, but it's one of the reasons why I'm happy where we are today.

Speaker 7 We have the right people behind us. We have the right people that use the system.

Speaker 7 People want to get a little more efficient in their offices. And fortunately,

Speaker 7 people like you have introduced me to the best people in the industry and it's helped us quite a bit.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, I know you have other advisors as well, well, but connecting with Paradiso was, I think, a huge win for you because, you know, and I'll say, you know, just to be completely transparent, if he hadn't been the one that had introduced me to you, I probably would have been much more hesitant in,

Speaker 6 you know, believing many of the things that you had said in our first discussion because,

Speaker 6 you know, you just, I've. You know, when I was at Agency Nation, I got pitched every day by another insurer, like literally every day.

Speaker 6 And it wasn't like you were pitching, we were just having a conversation, but you were describing what you're doing and what your process was. And,

Speaker 6 you know, with Paradiso being the one that's saying, hey, man, you need to talk to this kid. Like, he's doing something special.

Speaker 6 That, that kind of really opened up my ears. And I know that's the case for a lot of the other people that are working with you.
He was a, he was a really great.

Speaker 6 early get from an advisory standpoint for you. I think he played a huge role in moving you forward quickly at the very beginning.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I mean, I talked to Chris weekly, and

Speaker 7 he's been a tremendous help for us, not just with introductions, but with his entire office helping us with custom UIs and making sure that we have the right flow for an agency.

Speaker 7 He's been amazing. I mean, between him, the first two guys that really helped us out were him and Matt Namoli.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 7 those are two pretty big names in this industry. So for the two of them to back us and help us as much as they have with introductions and

Speaker 7 looking at our ui over and over again every iteration change and making sure it looks good i mean it's huge so we i i can't thank them enough and they'll tell you that i tell them every time i talk to them that i appreciate what they're doing but they always say it it's they're trying to better the industry and i think for them to give us that respect is huge well

Speaker 6 yes yes that

Speaker 6 It would be very difficult for someone to have to say,

Speaker 6 everyone can find fault in someone, but you could never say about Chris or Matt that whether you agree with their position or not, you could not say that their position wasn't in what they believed was in the best interest of not just themselves, but the industry.

Speaker 6 And I think

Speaker 6 that's a rare quality. And to have both of those guys,

Speaker 6 you know, because after, so basically for me, it was Chris told me to talk to you. We talked.
And then I called Matt and I was like, how legit is everything that this dude just said?

Speaker 6 Because Chris just interviewed, introduced. So then I got the back, the sandwich side, too.
And then I was like, then I think I texted you back and I was like, yeah, I'm in. I'm in.
That's awesome.

Speaker 6 Whatever you need to do.

Speaker 6 If those dudes recommend you, then, you know, I would be an asshole for saying no.

Speaker 7 That was a setup, though. We planned that whole thing.

Speaker 7 We made sure that you chose Matt to call next instead of anybody else to make sure that we all sandwiched you together and you joined in the next week.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Well, I mean, and you got Duffy and you got a bunch of other great agencies that are just using the tool.
And,

Speaker 6 you know, all that stuff just adds up. And I think,

Speaker 6 so it was really interesting. So, so, what was really interesting to me, and

Speaker 6 if you're not aware by now, I don't come into these conversations with an agenda, but

Speaker 6 I was listening. Cass had a really great interview.
I don't know if you listen to Cass's podcast at all. I do.
But he had a great interview with Caitlin Eggers from Quantum the other day.

Speaker 6 I don't know if you heard that one, but she was talking about buying leads online.

Speaker 6 So, if you put into IAOA's Facebook group, which I know you're not a part of, you don't own an agency, but there's, you know, if you put

Speaker 6 where do you buy leads from, you will get about 7,000 comments. Half the people will just put like interested, and the other half will put, you're an a-hole if you have to buy leads, right?

Speaker 6 That's basically the perception: is people either are interested, but don't really want, haven't really done the work to figure it out, or they just think that you're,

Speaker 6 you're less than for having bought them. Yep.
And

Speaker 6 I guess I can kind of understand both perceptions, but I think the reason,

Speaker 6 I think the reason that people

Speaker 6 believe buying leads is somehow,

Speaker 6 I don't know, like you're, you don't get as much street cred for that is because is this idea that you you couldn't be profitable doing it that way, right?

Speaker 6 If I were to buy a commercial lines lead or just run PPC ads for small business, right? And

Speaker 6 they call,

Speaker 6 if I had to go to Liberty, Hanover, Chubb, if I had to go to all these different places, guard to get to get quotes, it is now

Speaker 6 by the second carrier that I'm logging into that's going to have a different UI, that's going to be interested in slightly different information, it's going to have different discounts.

Speaker 6 You know, my brain has already taken up way too many cycles and I'm now unprofitable.

Speaker 6 And I think that's the thought process is these like super smart agents who, you know, talk in terms of like balance sheets and stuff and feel that somehow that makes them superior.

Speaker 6 They're like, oh, well, you don't get it because you have to buy leads and it's impossible to be profitable that way. So you just don't get it.
And,

Speaker 6 you know, I think as personal lines quoting becomes more straightforward.

Speaker 6 And now with this on commercial lines, I mean,

Speaker 6 I have dialed up every commercial, small business, commercial lead gen opportunity that exists. I have them all coming in now because I can just plow through quotes all day long.

Speaker 6 I mean, it's freaking easy. And I think it changes the game from a lead buying perspective.

Speaker 6 I think it opens up, it opens up, and I'm gushing, but I just, we haven't talked in a while and I'm in a good mood today. And I'm going, I'm going to Buffalo tomorrow.
So I'm super excited.

Speaker 6 I just think it opens up all these opportunities for small agencies who want to make that jump but have never had the efficiencies to do so

Speaker 7 this allows them to do that with small commercial it allows them to do it yeah and i won't i won't touch on buffalo because you know my feelings about buffalo but yeah no cam cam newton by the way so that i mean we still have that agreement that you owe me dinner once the patriots win the division just want to throw that cam newton cam newton was a gift to the buffalo bills

Speaker 6 It's going to happen. He's going to come out.
He'll have a good first game. Then he'll be terrible for three games.
And then his shoulder will hurt. And then the Bills will win the AFC East.

Speaker 6 That's what's going to happen.

Speaker 7 I'm telling you right now. I disagree, but I'll touch on what you said before that, because I guess that's more important for this conversation.

Speaker 7 So it's funny because when we first started this, everyone said you're commoditizing small commercial, and that's not what we want to do. And I feel the exact opposite.

Speaker 7 We're rewarding carriers that have the technology to actually implement it and help their agents be more profitable, more efficient.

Speaker 7 And those agencies, by nature, are going to reward those carriers in return for doing it. And that's proven true time and time again.
So it's not commoditizing anything.

Speaker 7 We consistently customize our platform for each individual carrier to make it fit what they're looking for. And their agencies are rewarding them by placing business with them.

Speaker 7 So that's the most important thing to me is I don't treat it like personal lines because it's not. It's not lowest premium wins.
18.4% of the premium in our system is the lowest. That's bound.

Speaker 7 It's extremely low.

Speaker 7 The most important thing for us is how do we reward these carriers that are actually trying to help their agencies be more profitable, be better.

Speaker 7 And in return, how do we get the agencies to reward those carriers?

Speaker 6 So.

Speaker 6 I love that you brought up the C word because

Speaker 6 this is,

Speaker 6 I've been calling bullshit on this, on this idea for basically since I started stepping on stages 10 years ago, because the things that I was talking about from a digital standpoint 10 years ago, people are like, oh, our clients don't go online.

Speaker 6 That's the commodity business. But even personal lines,

Speaker 6 it's not a commodity.

Speaker 6 So basically what you're saying is, if you're saying that online rating and comparative rating and this type of nature is in somehow commoditizing the business, then what you're saying is that what makes independent agents not a commodity is their ability to log into carrier systems and stick information in.

Speaker 6 That's what you're saying, because that's all you're doing

Speaker 6 when you give an account sheet to a CSR and you say, hey, go market this. That's all they're doing.

Speaker 6 They're taking the information, they're plugging it into systems, and then everyone goes, single sign-on.

Speaker 6 How come we don't have, you don't need single sign-on if you have one platform that's already API'd in.

Speaker 7 And I got to say, though, the carriers that we work with, and now we have 23 carriers that are contracted with us.

Speaker 7 The carriers that we're partnering with don't feel that way. They don't feel like it's commoditizing.
And there's, I mean, there's a reason behind it,

Speaker 7 but they're partnering with us because they think it's beneficial to the agency, not because they think they're being commoditized and they have to do it. No one has to do this.

Speaker 7 We need carriers more than they'll ever need us. I'm talking about me as an insured tech company, not you as an agency.

Speaker 7 We need them more than they need us. And they're willing to do stuff like this because they recognize the value in it for the future, for the future value and the current value.

Speaker 7 But there are going to be carriers that are going to say it's commoditized, and those are the ones that we don't work with.

Speaker 7 And that's, there's no loss to them. There's a loss to us.
But at the end of the day, you're not going to change someone's mind if they've already made that decision.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So what has been

Speaker 6 for you,

Speaker 6 going from working for a carrier to then working for your dad and being an agent to now being you know running an insure tech company what what was one of the things that maybe

Speaker 6 has been a challenge that you didn't see coming you know not like hey you know we got to get carriers on the platform like that's obvious but like was there anything that kind of snuck up on you that's been a challenge yeah i i mean interviewing people

Speaker 7 there's There's two things I don't like. One, I buy snacks for the office.
That was always done for me. And two, interviewing people.
That's the biggest challenge for me, though, honestly.

Speaker 7 It's been making sure that everyone understands the goal of this company.

Speaker 7 When you're interviewing people, culture fits huge and

Speaker 7 understanding is huge. And if you think that we're coming in here and the only goal is for our sales reps to close, you know, 150 agencies a month or whatever we tell them to do.

Speaker 7 then they're missing the point.

Speaker 7 The goal is to make sure that the agents using the system to the best of their ability to be more efficient and hiring new employees that are A, outside the insurance industry, but B,

Speaker 7 don't necessarily understand the independent agent model. Teaching them what that means and how it's actually working for them was by far the hardest thing because I grew up in it.

Speaker 7 I knew what insurance was. I knew what an independent agent was.
Our director of sales knew, our COO knew.

Speaker 7 And until we hired our first person outside of the three of us, I never thought that was going to be an issue. But training insurance is way harder than training technology.

Speaker 6 When you talk to a non-insurance person, sometimes I feel like I'm talking to like a Martian or something. Like you just, you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 Like when you're surrounded with other insurance people and there's like that one non-insurance person, and then you see that look start to creep over their face where like you can just tell that they just don't, like they're just not following along at all.

Speaker 6 Like the words mean different things and

Speaker 6 like,

Speaker 6 like what you would, you know, uh, what you would think should happen doesn't happen that way.

Speaker 6 And, you know, all the nuances of our industry, it's always so funny to watch someone's face when they're like their first real nerdy insurance conversation. They're just

Speaker 6 no idea.

Speaker 7 All my conversations are nerdy insurance conversations nowadays. But it is, you're right.
It's entirely different.

Speaker 7 And I think the people that build companies that came from outside the industry that try to sell to insurance agencies and insurance companies. and go in with this hard sell tactic

Speaker 7 doesn't work. No.
You have to build a relationship with the person, show them where they're gaining their value, instead of saying, Look at all this stuff we did. It's better for you.

Speaker 7 You should use this because you'll be better. That's not true.

Speaker 7 They're great as is. We're just trying to help them become more efficient.
And you have to train all these employees that you hire.

Speaker 7 The last eight that we've hired, we've had to train on insurance more so than technology.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I believe that. I believe that.

Speaker 6 The first time, like

Speaker 6 the first time, as a vendor to an agency that you tell that agency owner that they either

Speaker 6 don't understand the problem or are somehow like wrong in the way that they've chosen to solve the problem, regardless of what they're doing, you have officially lost that agency as someone you're ever going to sell to.

Speaker 6 That person, what that person is doing is sitting there, and I had to learn this the hard way when I was at Agency Nation, right?

Speaker 6 Like, I'm trying to sell advantage subscriptions for trustchoice.com and you know

Speaker 6 whatever and you you

Speaker 6 they're looking at you going you son of a bitch you have no idea how hard my job is and how many things i have to think about and you're telling me that i don't know what i'm doing like i will kill you i will eat your face like what are you talking about and

Speaker 6 in your mind you're like wait a minute you're still using a typewriter this this keyboard thing is so much easier and they're like no no no you don't understand this typewriter works great i make 500 000 in personal income you're going to tell me this typewriter doesn't work

Speaker 7 yeah people have to remember that insurance agencies have existed for so long and there's still 38 000 of them because they're successful they're doing something right yeah so you can't go in there and say you're doing something wrong fortunately for me when they say i'm running an agency i i i was the person that insurtechs were selling to at our agency when i was on the agency side so i know i know what the problem is i know what a bad sales tactic is and we're not it's about building the relationship it really is insurance is 100 relationship driven and if you think otherwise you're an idiot and and the truth is how things how products get sold in this industry is a hundred percent agent to agent referral that's what it is i mean and all the insurance insurance groups that I'm part of, you know, for infra, whatever the product, you know what I mean?

Speaker 6 Like, like I just, I just signed up for stamps.com. And I, cause I was asking people, like hey have you ever used this tool you know it's like the silliest I mean it seems silly right it's like an

Speaker 6 this you know I need to mail shit I don't feel like going to the freaking post office all the time and getting stamps how do you stamps.com that's oh I use it it works great it's you know blah blah blah and it's like and I probably wouldn't have purchased it if I hadn't seen two or three other agents go yeah we use it yep that's what we use and there's different services

Speaker 6 and I just was like, oh, okay, this is easy. It's pretty cheap.
You know, I don't send that many letters, but I don't certainly feel like driving and getting stamps all the time.

Speaker 6 And sometimes I send bigger stuff. And every service is like that, every single one over, you know, from CRM to agency management system to telephone system to every tool in the agency.

Speaker 6 Agents are constantly talking about them. Constantly.
Yeah.

Speaker 7 And if you don't get referred by another agency, I mean, the hardest part is being the first one on a new product. Yeah.

Speaker 7 because one if you're the first one you're the only one trying it out and that was i mean that was literally mark duffy chris Chris Paradise. So that was the, for us, they were the two.

Speaker 7 They were our first couple agencies that started using it. And then it spread.
But you're right. Everything needs to be agent to agent because it's a small community.

Speaker 7 As many agents as there are, it's a super small community.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And I kind of, at first,

Speaker 6 when I first kind of broke out of the Murray group, not necessarily when I left, but when I first started visiting other associations and spending more time with other agents,

Speaker 6 at first I didn't really understand,

Speaker 6 I didn't understand that nature of the business, how,

Speaker 6 you know, you and I could be bitter rivals in terms of, you know, we're both from the same town and we're looking for the same advertising opportunities, but then we can go on the golf course and talk about sales tactics and tools.

Speaker 6 And oh, this. this marketing rep's giving me a hard time.
You know, how do you deal with it?

Speaker 6 And that, that aspect of our industry, I feel like is very unique and and the other and i also feel and i was actually talking to um donielle smink on the episode that'll have come out right before this one um

Speaker 6 about how the industry has become even more uh collaborative and and agents communicate even more so if you you know you think about like um

Speaker 6 oh what was that marketing company in rhode island that that

Speaker 6 burned at every bridge um

Speaker 6 uh astonished results right You think about those guys, and you know, they're like writing these deals and they're cutting this guy like an amazing deal.

Speaker 6 And then this guy over here, they're basically taking his firstborn and in order to pay for the deal that they cut this guy over here. And like,

Speaker 6 you know, back then, I mean, so that was probably 10, 15 years ago,

Speaker 6 10, 12 years ago now. Back then, they could kind of get away with that because, you know, there wasn't today.

Speaker 6 You do one of those bad deals, and you know, 5,000 agents in IOA know know tomorrow they know tomorrow you you treat someone poorly like that and the next day everybody knows and you know people start to pump the brakes on that vendor so you have to be much um

Speaker 7 you know you just have to be more careful in how you treat and obviously you should treat people the right way but yeah you can't get away with that smarminess no i think that's the most important thing you should be doing that anyways but at least now there's some some justifiable action that can be had against you if you don't treat people the right way.

Speaker 7 And there's a lot of companies in this this insured tech space, in my space, that are a little sketchy. They do things the wrong way.

Speaker 7 So, when we started, you know, the most important thing to us, like I said, is the culture. How do we make sure that we're always upfront, honest, transparent with everybody?

Speaker 7 And we've, hopefully, we've held to that across the board for all of our employees.

Speaker 6 Yeah. No,

Speaker 6 it certainly, I certainly haven't heard a bad thing. So, let's, I want to talk a little bit about

Speaker 6 your origin story and I've gushed a little bit.

Speaker 6 And now I want to talk a little bit more about the future, right? So

Speaker 6 different parts of the country, different agency, different carrier mixes. Carriers are the number one thing.

Speaker 6 More carriers helps more agents because the more carriers that are on the platform, and this is kind of the chicken and the egg with everybody, but I will say if you are... If you are a carrier,

Speaker 6 if you work for a carrier in any capacity that can help this, help connect with Tarmica, I would encourage you to do so because

Speaker 6 this type of relationship is, this is where it's going for small business.

Speaker 6 And, you know, I know some pretty badass agents that are literally just waiting for like a couple carrier relationships to fall, which may or may not already be in the in the works.

Speaker 6 And bam, they're going to be on and moving. So, you know, where, what do you see as some of your biggest challenges moving forward and, and kind of

Speaker 6 getting past those? What does the future look like? Like, where are you going with this thing?

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think the carrier, the carrier stuff was difficult at first. For the first, you know, year of operation, getting carriers is hard.

Speaker 7 Even, even, you know, last year was difficult, but this year, it's really all come together for us.

Speaker 7 persistence, hard work, getting those carrier relationships, showing them the value was important. So that hurdle has been hopefully crossed now.

Speaker 7 And we've passed through the most difficult part as an insured tech company, which is building relationships with insurance companies but now i mean for us the biggest hurdle moving forward is understanding and this is every startup in the world is understanding how to scale responsibly um not being too aggressive not hiring too fast not doing anything crazy and actually understanding where we need people which for us is customer success i mean that's the most important part for us is you know if you're an agency quoting and there's a technical error or if there's a question you have you need someone to call you need a spokesperson at the at tarmica so that's where we've really focused our energy right now and it's been huge it's been working yeah next biggest hurdle for us is figuring out we're we're currently in the process of personal lines right yeah and

Speaker 7 figuring out which states to start in uh how many agents to start with it's the same issue we had with commercial lines is which states to start in how many agents and you know figuring that out understanding who's going to use it the most who can benefit the most from it as our beta testers for personal lines, that's important.

Speaker 7 And we have a couple already. So we got Bradley Flowers down in Alabama.
We have you. We have Matt Namoli.

Speaker 7 We have a bunch of beta testers that are going to do personal lines, Zach and Ryan from Coverage Direct. But

Speaker 7 that's probably our focus right now is how do we continue to grow the commercial line side with the team we have and then hire this whole other engineering team, this whole other sales team for personal lines now.

Speaker 7 And that's what we're in the process of now.

Speaker 6 Yeah, i'm

Speaker 6 just the workflow that you guys have i'm so excited for personal alliance too um

Speaker 6 because

Speaker 6 it's just

Speaker 6 you know i i think i want to give i want to give credit where credit is due because pl raider and and uh easy links tool like you know they blade they blazed a trail that did not exist oh yeah and i mean they sold a lot of carriers on building out the technology for those tools when the idea of comparative rating was just bringing it up was like blaspheming.

Speaker 6 But I think there is tremendous opportunity from a workflow standpoint, from

Speaker 6 a reporting and functional functionality standpoint that, you know, I still have to log into Internet Explorer to use PL Raider, right?

Speaker 6 That loses me accounts because I have to go to a whole separate computer because I'm a Mac user.

Speaker 6 So the fact that I'm a Mac user, I literally had someone say to me, well, maybe you should just stop being a Mac user. And I was like, fuck you.
Why should I have to stop being a Mac user?

Speaker 6 Which I can, you know, I've been on for 10 years.

Speaker 6 Just because you haven't figured out that Chrome is the, you know, Chrome is the number one web browser on the internet.

Speaker 6 You're using a web browser that Microsoft doesn't even upload, doesn't even update anymore. And I'm the crazy person.
Like that's hard for me.

Speaker 6 And I'm not, I don't want to bang on PL Reader because it works, right? The product works. They have a ton of carriers.
They've done the hard work.

Speaker 6 So I'm not banging on them, but I do think there's a lot of,

Speaker 6 I think there's a lot of green field there in that space. And

Speaker 6 when you can log into one system and quote personal or commercial, that to me feels like a huge win too.

Speaker 7 And that's one of the reasons why we're doing it. I mean, commercial is our primary focus, was our primary focus for a long time.

Speaker 7 And it continues to be a focus for the team that's currently here. But, you know, we can, we can have a separate team working on personal.

Speaker 7 We can have separate employees selling personal, being the customer support for personal, and it's all in one system. So it's easy for them to use.

Speaker 7 That's a challenge, though, is making sure we scale responsibly on commercial while also building out personal. And it's that, I mean, everyone always says, what keeps you up at night? That's it.

Speaker 7 That's the only thing that keeps me up at night is how do we scale properly without overdoing it.

Speaker 6 Well, I think that's smart because,

Speaker 6 you know, I know a concern for me when I get involved, because

Speaker 6 the emotional investment that you and time investment, capital investment that you have in a tool is not insubstantial. I think, you know, and I know you guys have an appreciation for this.

Speaker 6 And I've heard the way that Chris talks to agencies on the phone.

Speaker 6 So I know he has an appreciation for this when he's, you know, we'll call it selling, but, you know, building relationships, talking to people through the process. But, you know,

Speaker 6 one of the things that has been, you know, that really has like smacked me in the face as now an agency owner is

Speaker 6 when you make a decision on a piece of technology whether it's a software or whatever you're not just investing some money in it right there's like this mentality that ah it's 150 bucks a month you know it's like well it's not just that because now i have to build workflows processes i have to take brain cycles and figure out how to use the tool i have to teach my team how to use the tool you know and

Speaker 6 That's that is probably more of a concern than necessarily just the price of the tool.

Speaker 6 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 7 It could be $25 or $10,000 a month, and it wouldn't make a difference if you don't actually use it. It's a waste.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And I think that idea, what you just said about,

Speaker 6 I think the concern is if I invest my time, energy, and mental cycles, mental process into this tool in two years, are you just going to bounce and it's going to blow up or get sold to somebody, some system that I can't even use?

Speaker 6 And now all of a sudden, I'm left you, you know, I got to find something new because that's scarier.

Speaker 6 I mean, I think that's a big reason why people still stick with applied is they're just like, I know they're always going to be here. They're never going away.

Speaker 6 So even though I don't love them, maybe it's not perfect, although I know Epic is a decent system if you like the applied ecosystem.

Speaker 6 Like they're never going away. So you never have to have that concern.
And I think that's a big part of it.

Speaker 7 It is. I mean, it has to be, right? And I think one of the hardest parts of starting the company was my age.

Speaker 7 And one of the the best things about telling people i'm not going anywhere is my age so what what was once terrible is also a a blessing so starting a company at 25 people don't really trust you all that much no what the hell do you know is is a pretty common it was pretty common up front and fortunately i mean i like i said i grew up with the dad who worked in insurance for for 40 years and knows more than anyone I know about insurance, right?

Speaker 7 So I'm not going anywhere. I'm 27.
I have a long career ahead of me i love this company i love doing what we're doing i love our employees i think they're all awesome um i love doing this work so

Speaker 7 right now i always say this

Speaker 7 not planning on going anywhere um

Speaker 6 the other good news is even at 27 you have very adult hair and you look very mature which is the opposite for me i'm almost 40 but i look like i'm like 17.

Speaker 7 so i'm not really sure i'm not sure if i don't shave and you you see all the grays in the beard and i look like i'm in my 40s like that guy knows tech right there he's been around for a while exactly maybe i should just keep it so people think i'm a little bit older but no it's it is like i said it's a blessing to be able to say that you know i one of the best things i've ever said is i i always admit that i don't know what i don't know yeah i know what i don't know sorry i i'll tell you straight up if i don't have an answer and that's a good thing because when you're talking to agencies and carriers they have way more experience than i ever will Yeah.

Speaker 7 And they give advice. They tell you how they think things should work.
And you have to listen and actually implement their advice. And if you don't,

Speaker 7 you're going to be obsolete too.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I was having this conversation with Carruthers the other day about

Speaker 6 it's it's easy to tell the individuals who have never sat at the big kids table before right when they've never they've never um had the humility to sit there with their glass of scotch and just shut the hell up and listen to people who have done really amazing things, grown very successful companies, just talk about stuff and just not felt, just listened.

Speaker 6 And,

Speaker 6 you know, I think you, I mean, what I hear you saying is you were lucky enough to, you know, being around your dad to get some of that.

Speaker 6 I unfortunately had to wait much longer to learn that lesson until I was part of trustedchoice.com.

Speaker 6 I had the opportunity to sit with a lot of people and listen to a lot of agents who incredibly successful,

Speaker 6 you know, the Spencer Holdens and, you know, all these different, all these different agents

Speaker 6 and agency owners talk about the business. And it really, it helps you understand

Speaker 6 how

Speaker 6 what we're actually doing. You know, we're not just like selling a policy to someone.
We're making sure that someone's life isn't ruined on the worst day that ever happens to them.

Speaker 6 And I think it's so easy to lose sight of how big a thing we are actually doing.

Speaker 6 And that's why I hate that word commodity, because all a tool like Tarmka is allowing us to do by lining up commercial or small business carriers against each other, all it's allowing us to do is focus more on the making sure that things are right.

Speaker 6 So we, because we're not thinking about the transactional shit, like, oh, I didn't punch that number, you know, I didn't punch the sales number correctly into the seventh system that I'm rating today.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 what

Speaker 6 allows us to be better.

Speaker 7 What's the focus, though? If you're spending too much time quoting, is your focus trying to get all this data into the system? Is your focus finding the right coverage for your client?

Speaker 7 It's probably entering the data into your system. So speed up the process that's tedious and

Speaker 7 unrealistic and focus on selling your client the best coverage that they need for their specific business. Because at the end of the day, agencies are the experts on it.
And that's what's important.

Speaker 6 So I know this is probably sounding for everyone like a 51 minute commercial for tarmaga and i guess in part maybe it is but i don't mean it to be i just um

Speaker 6 you know it's hard for me to be anything other than authentic in in that i just believe in what you're doing man i uh since the first time we spoke on the phone i'm obviously i jokingly was talking you know talking about parody so you know in the intro and stuff but um i have been i've seen your vision since day one i've i've believed in in your vision.

Speaker 6 And, you know,

Speaker 6 you, you know, being part of the advisory committee and being able to help shape it is an honor.

Speaker 6 But whether I was part of that or not, I, I, I think what you are doing is going to help so many agencies

Speaker 6 sustain through the storm of small business, you know,

Speaker 6 that. and and and and thrive and potentially thrive if they can work on things like workflows and that kind of stuff and and really move.

Speaker 6 I just, I think I'm just a huge believer in what you're doing, huge proponent. And I couldn't, you know, I just feel

Speaker 6 I feel like I'm part of a very cool club to be able to, you know, give feedback and in whatever regard and help grow this thing because

Speaker 6 I think it's important to our industry.

Speaker 7 I appreciate that. That's that's huge for us to hear from an agency, especially, I mean, you're a new agency too, and you're growing quickly.
So it's cool for us to hear that.

Speaker 6 Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest,

Speaker 6 you know, the last couple of weeks, since at least in the ecosystem that I operate, it feels like things are opening up. People are starting to take phone calls.

Speaker 6 Calls are starting to come in.

Speaker 6 I don't know that I would be able to scale this business if I didn't have Tarmaka. I don't think that I would.
I think it would be impossible.

Speaker 6 If I, that guy yesterday, again, not a huge account, so don't, you know, there's some of the, some of the more douchey members of our audience are going to be like, that was $553 bop, you know.

Speaker 6 But the idea is that's, that's one of what will be 20 accounts. And if I can write 20, $500 bops in 20 minutes at a time, I'm making money.
I'm making real money.

Speaker 6 And those accounts are going to renew. And I'm going to get their personal lines.
I'm going to sell them life insurance and they're going to send me referrals.

Speaker 6 And that's how the agency is going to scale. And if I was spending all that time.
logging into each individual system, seeing if they had an appetite, figuring out what the best rate is,

Speaker 6 it wouldn't be possible. So I appreciate you.
I appreciate the work you do. Obviously,

Speaker 6 you know, I text you random shit all the time too, and you actually respond. So that's fun.
But dude, I wish you nothing but the best. And,

Speaker 6 you know, I'm sure this won't be the last time you're on the show. But where can people, besides T-A-R-M-I-K-A.com,

Speaker 6 where can people learn more about you?

Speaker 7 Hey, people can learn more about me by texting me. That's the way I get in touch with people.
So, or you can email me, ragab.jana at tarmica.com, and I'm more than happy to talk at any point.

Speaker 7 Dude, appreciate you, man. Be good.
Hey, friend.

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