RHS 021 - Ann Handley Teaches us How to be Irresistible

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Speaker 9 Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of the Ryan Hanley Show.

Speaker 9 And today we have the absolutely fantastic, wonderful, creative, authentic, transparent, vulnerable, mind-bogglingly inspiring Ann Hanley on the show, who is a best-selling author, partner in marketing props, one of the most well-respected and prestigious marketing organizations in the world.

Speaker 9 And she also has one of the premier conferences in the marketing space, the B2B Marketing Forum.

Speaker 9 And she has given us an hour of her time to share her insights on what she has going on in the marketing space and it is just a tremendous episode.

Speaker 9 But before we get to Anne, I just want to give you a quick call to action, actually two quick calls to action.

Speaker 9 If you enjoy this show, please leave a rating and review on iTunes or Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts that helps us get found by more awesome people just like yourself.

Speaker 9 And if you're not already, Every week I push out a video newsletter. The videos basically break down everything that you'd normally get in a text-based newsletter,

Speaker 9 tools, breakdowns on things that happen that week, content that I created.

Speaker 9 And then we always have a section at the end, which is exclusive insights, exclusive content, something that I saw, that I heard, that I think is going to help you market your business better.

Speaker 9 It's going to help you grow your business better. Go to ryanhanley.com forward slash subscribe to get the video newsletter.
That's where all the exclusives are. That's where all the news is.

Speaker 9 It's the best video newsletter in the world. In the world, hands down.
I'm saying it right here. Get it.
RyanHanley.com forward slash subscribe. Get the video newsletter.
Now, let's get on to Ann.

Speaker 8 Where I'd actually like to start with you is the newsletter because

Speaker 8 to me,

Speaker 8 you and Tamson Webster are battling for the best, the most valuable piece of email content in my inbox every week.

Speaker 8 And whether you know it or not, I actually have like a ranking system that is arbitrary. And so

Speaker 8 that's completely personal.

Speaker 8 But it is, it's incredibly valuable. So few people are taking the time to really,

Speaker 8 there's a slight movement back to email, I think, but it still seems like, hey, just let me drive you with the shortest number of words to this thing on my website that I can actually track.

Speaker 8 And you do it completely different.

Speaker 8 It's so long form. There's so much value.
And I'm just interested in, one,

Speaker 8 what was, you know, what kind of spurred you to take an email newsletter on and why

Speaker 8 why you continue to be so willing to almost add more value with each

Speaker 8 new edition of the newsletter.

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 about

Speaker 10 two and a half years ago-ish, something like that, I got an email from a guy who lives in the Netherlands.

Speaker 10 And he said, you know, I signed up to be part of your personal website at annhanley calm so not at marketing profs but at Ann Hanley and I you know I never hear from you you know is there like a secret list somewhere like why am I not hearing from you ever you publish there very sporadically I never get anything in an email at all I just I never hear from you at all I follow you on social but that's all I get so he said why is that you know he asked me this sort of fundamental question and you know like sometimes there are moments in your life when somebody asks you a question and you get like hyper-defensive about it, and then you realize that it's definitely triggered you in some way.

Speaker 10 And that's essentially what happened that when he asked me that question, and I got super defensive. And I was just like, well, I mean, I'm busy.
I've got marketing problems. I've got speaking.

Speaker 10 I've got books. I've got na-na-na-na-na.
And I realized I was just, you know, I gave him this whole like flowchart of excuses, you know, if I were to map it out.

Speaker 10 And I realized that, you know, I really, he was absolutely right. I was missing an opportunity.

Speaker 10 I wasn't nurturing a community that had opted in to hear from me and just that that moment where I thought these people have given me their email address they have opted in to hear from me and I'm not

Speaker 10 I'm not engaging with them at all I'm not talking to them at all. I'm not writing to them at all.

Speaker 10 And it was really that iteration of my thinking as I thought more about that, again, about two and a half years ago, that I thought, you know, I really need to think about this community a little differently.

Speaker 10 And I started to really value that person who had opted into my email and my friend in the Netherlands who was sort of a proxy for that whole community at that point. And it was very small.

Speaker 10 There was only about 3,000 people that were on the list. Some people had been on the list for years just to receive.

Speaker 10 You know, basically what used to happen with that list is anytime I published a blog post, which again was very sporadically, they would just get an alert in their inbox. And that was it.

Speaker 10 Like that was the extent of how I was using that platform.

Speaker 10 And so I just started to rethink what is the value of a person who hands over their email address to you. And it was just sort of struck me that that is a really important moment.

Speaker 10 And for the first time ever, I really started to think, maybe I really should do something with that, which sounds ridiculous in a way for me, because Marketing Profs, my company has, you know, we've built our whole

Speaker 10 So much of our business is centered around email. You know, our email list is massively important to us for so many reasons, but yet I wasn't translating that same thing to

Speaker 10 my own personal stuff, to my own personal website, even though I had books and a speaking career and all that stuff.

Speaker 10 And so yeah, it was sort of a reframing and a re,

Speaker 10 what's the word, I guess, just

Speaker 10 really a new respect for that individual who had turned over their email address to me. And I realized that that's such an important and really precious gift that somebody somebody gives you.

Speaker 10 And I don't say that lightly. I really do believe that that is something that we should really be valuing as marketers way more than we do.

Speaker 8 You obviously enjoy it. It comes through in the way that you write, in the obvious time that you take to curate everything from resources to funny images to the stories that go into them.

Speaker 8 So, and I've also noticed, and I mean this in a positive way, they've gotten longer.

Speaker 8 Some of them, you know, some of them have gotten, I mean, I save them like resources in my inbox because I'm like, oh, that thing's amazing. I don't have time to research it right now.

Speaker 8 And then I actually have a folder. This is going to sound weird, and please don't consider me a stalker.
I just do find it valuable.

Speaker 8 I have a folder that I stick like

Speaker 8 yours and a couple other newsletters in of people who I want to go back to because it, there's so much value in there. So, I guess to me,

Speaker 8 so one, I completely agree. And I have, I feel like I have undervalued my email subscribers at different times as well.
And what I did was I created a video newsletter.

Speaker 8 So, I 15 to 20 minutes talking through, like you would put into a regular newsletter, but I'm talking through it.

Speaker 8 I just feel like I can be a little more authentic in myself and I can do it in a way that maybe differentiates. But that's not the point.
The point was:

Speaker 8 you keep coming back and you keep adding more value to this thing. I feel like a lot of people

Speaker 8 just do

Speaker 8 the least possible to get it off their plate.

Speaker 8 Why have you continued to invest into this thing? And,

Speaker 8 you know, what maybe I don't want to just say like the ROI because that makes it feel shallow and I don't like that.

Speaker 8 But like, just personally, what are you getting out of it that keeps you coming back to this thing that obviously takes time out of your day?

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 let me see how to, which question to answer first, I guess. So,

Speaker 10 yeah, so that, well, let me just step back for a second. So, the reason why I chose to do an email newsletter instead of, say, a, you know, like a video newsletter like you do or, you know,

Speaker 10 something on IGTV or, you know, instead of, I wanted to do something episodic. I knew that.
I wanted to be able to communicate on a regular basis.

Speaker 10 I needed a schedule because I need that as a person, as a professional. If I don't have that, I'll just, you know, I'll keep pushing it further and further down the field.

Speaker 10 So I knew I needed that, number one. And I decided to do an email newsletter because, you know, I'm a writer.
That's that's how I started my career.

Speaker 10 I started my career as a journalist, and I've wanted to be a writer since I was a little kid. And so I've always identified as a writer.

Speaker 10 And so I really wanted to, you know, just communicate in that way because that's the way that I communicate well and I'm really comfortable in that.

Speaker 10 And then the second piece of that is that I did it, I publish it every other weekend because that's the only like that's the cadence I can manage I can't do every single week

Speaker 10 and so I thought all right if I'm gonna do all so all of those things episodic it's gonna be writing and it's gonna be every other week because that's all I have time for really then what is it gonna be and how is that going to be a differentiator and so I wanted to create something that felt like a you know like like something important when it comes into your inbox I wanted to feel like a kind of gift from me because if you're giving me your email address, I want to give you something back valuable in return.

Speaker 10 And so that's the way that I approach it. And, you know, some weeks it's a little bit longer because, you know, as I start out usually with a story or a narrative of some kind that

Speaker 10 sort of encapsulates the theme for that newsletter. And then I'll curate a few links that I think are interesting.
And I'll tell you why I think they're interesting.

Speaker 10 And so it's a little bit of a, I mean, it would probably take you all of, you know, 10 minutes if you're a fast reader just to read it.

Speaker 10 And I have heard that, you know, some people say that they save them. And I think that's, that's awesome.
Like that's very gratifying for me.

Speaker 10 And so, you know, where I, so I guess the motivation for that, like, where does that come from? It's, it's because, you know, I think you interviewed our friend Brian Fanzo, right?

Speaker 10 Did you interview him on this podcast? Yeah. And so one of the things that Brian talks about all the time is push the damn button, right? I'm did he probably talked about that with you on this show.

Speaker 10 Oh, yeah. And, you know, he's a good friend of mine.
And every time I've seen him speak, he always, like, that's kind of his catchphrase. And I realized that I wasn't pushing buttons anymore.

Speaker 10 The further you get along in your career, the fewer buttons you push. And I wanted to push buttons again.

Speaker 10 I wanted to have something that was just mine, that I controlled from the writing to the packaging to choosing the images, like those funny gifts and things that I put in there, to, you know, choosing every little element.

Speaker 10 So it's all me. It's 100% me.
And even in the deploying of it, right, the mailing out, and then it goes out to people and then they write back to me. And then that's all me.

Speaker 10 And so I wanted to really own that from the beginning to the end. So why was that important to me? Why did I feel like I needed to do that?

Speaker 10 It wasn't just because I needed that sort of psychic satisfaction of pushing the button, but also I think you learn a lot.

Speaker 10 as a professional when you stay in that mode of creating and when you stay close to an audience.

Speaker 10 And so as I have gotten further along in my career, I'm not as close to the Marketing Profs audience anymore. You know, we have 600,000 people on that list and it's a massive community.

Speaker 10 And I'm grateful for all of them, but I don't, like, I don't put the newsletter together. I'm not the one that's writing it and curating it and putting it out anymore.

Speaker 10 And I just, I missed having that kind of connection. I think it also just informs who you are as a professional and it keeps you close to an audience, which only enriches everything else that you do.

Speaker 8 So would you give, would you use that, your experience?

Speaker 8 Um, would you recommend that advice to other people who've ascended to a leadership role or a role in their professional career where they have maybe lost that direct connection that some sort of creating, even if it's,

Speaker 8 you know, on a more extended cadence, even beyond every other week, if it's once a month or whatever, just keeping some sort of connection

Speaker 8 helps you overall, just maybe mentally, but also with actually making decisions in your business.

Speaker 10 Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 10 I mean, I think it's helped me so much just, you know, from, I mean, so many, so many points of view.

Speaker 10 Technology, you know, understanding how technology works now, figuring out how to grow an audience again. You know, I started with 3,000 people on that list.

Speaker 10 And when I started writing to them on a regular basis, you know, when I launched the newsletter just about two years ago now and I started writing to people through that, you know, through the newsletter, some people were like, whoa, what is going on here like we never hear from you so I had a flurry of unsubscribes at that point so those 3,000 people were maybe only about 2,000 by the time you know I they had sort of you know sort of self-selected themselves off the list unsubscribed and it's not I've now built it up to what am I just over

Speaker 10 I think I'm close to is it 23 or 24,000 somewhere around there yeah so in two years you know it's not it's not massive growth but I've done it all myself and I've learned about how to market a piece of content right so how to market your your marketing so to speak and so yeah and and then also just having that connection to the audience and find out what do people care about small things what do they click on what resonates with them am I packaging myself well so that I'm describing what I do to this audience so that when people get the email newsletter then they understand

Speaker 10 you know who I am and what I'm all about like all those small little tweaks it really does help you take a broader view of you know how you're communicating, how you're putting yourself out there.

Speaker 10 And it informs, like you said, like how you make other decisions in your business.

Speaker 10 So, yeah, I think, and it doesn't have to be an E-Mail newsletter. I think it's hugely valuable for anybody just to keep that connection.
You know, publish on LinkedIn.

Speaker 10 Start something on Instagram. Start a YouTube show.
Like, it doesn't matter whatever platform you're most comfortable on. But I really do believe that as a leader, you've got to be creating something.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Well, basically, if you're not on TikTok, then you don't exist.

Speaker 10 Yeah, you don't exist.

Speaker 10 My God, I am so addicted to TikTok. I don't create anything on there, but wow, sometimes I'll start watching it.
And like an hour later, I'm just like, holy what? This is just so entertaining.

Speaker 8 I mean, you have to believe in like the creative, the creativity of the, of the next generation. It's like, I'm like, I could never think of these things that these people are thinking of.

Speaker 8 And from all different walks, it's insane. I

Speaker 10 had to delete off my phone just because I'm, I do the same thing just boyerish but like i just was going down these rabbit holes and i said to my wife i was like i can't watch these stupid videos anymore like i know but they're so good like they're so good much fun yeah it's so really funny like quick just side side note to that so my daughter is in college and for the past couple years like because i'm always looking at social channels probably like you are too just looking to see what's up and coming and what's out there and so i'll often ask her like you know how are you using facebook or are you like are you on linkedin yet because she's now getting she's she's um been in college a few years so do you have a LinkedIn profile like just stuff like that I'm always curious like how the adoption works for her and her generation

Speaker 10 and so I've been asking you for about TikTok for like a few years now at least right however when it started and she kept saying to me no no no that's like for middle school kids no it's for high school kids like no i'm not on that and now she is completely addicted to it now she posts to tick tock so it's really funny the way it's bubbled up just her like to the early 20s now and and um and now now like, you know, I see people on there who are my age.

Speaker 10 And it's like, it's just, it's kind of interesting just to see its evolution.

Speaker 8 Yeah. I did,

Speaker 8 I posted like, and please, well, please, no one go and check me out on TikTok because it's not a, it's not a solid representation of what I've like,

Speaker 8 but like I like posted a couple things and I just literally became,

Speaker 8 I would love to consider myself at least a a fairly creative person, but I immediately realized that this is not the venue in which I am creative. Like this thought process, I'm just so overmatched.

Speaker 8 And I was just like, I'm just going to watch this one.

Speaker 8 I believe in its power and like that if, you know, if you can speak in this way and communicate, it's powerful. But like,

Speaker 8 I just was overmatched by it. You know, it was like, that is,

Speaker 8 I just, I was watching some baseball video and these, like, these college kids were doing this thing. And I like, I'm like.

Speaker 8 That's so much fun. I wish I was doing it.

Speaker 10 That's so fun. Yeah,

Speaker 10 I feel completely the same way that

Speaker 10 when I view videos on there, I'm just so blown away by the creativity. And then, you know,

Speaker 10 how I feel when I look at anything creative is like, I usually have one of two responses. The first is, wow, that's amazing.
I could never do that. Or, wow, that's amazing.

Speaker 10 I can do that, or at least close to it. You know, so those are usually what I react to, or those are my, those are the way I react.
And so with TikTok, I'm absolutely, that's amazing.

Speaker 10 I could never do that. It's just, it's not the way that my brain works either.
It's not how I work as a, as a creative person. But yeah, it's just hugely entertaining, though.

Speaker 8 Yeah. So fun.
You know, that kind of takes me into

Speaker 8 where I wanted to go with you next.

Speaker 8 Like your persona just in general, you, you're, it, it feels like, and I don't mean that in a negative way, it feels, you feel very authentic, transparent, vulnerable.

Speaker 8 The way you speak about yourself, you're very self-deprecating, you know, and, and it comes across very inviting.

Speaker 8 And even though we've never met and this is the first time we've ever spoke, it feels very natural and easy to talk to you. Like,

Speaker 8 I think a lot of people,

Speaker 8 a lot of people struggle with that particular thing.

Speaker 8 And they see that,

Speaker 8 they see that characteristic as almost like a superpower.

Speaker 8 And I have tried in the spaces that I operate to help people understand that through practice, like maybe some people are a little more predisposed,

Speaker 8 but through practice and just. pushing the damn button,

Speaker 8 you can start to develop these things and hone them. And I'm interested in your journey

Speaker 8 with this type of topic, with being authentic.

Speaker 8 Was it natural? Did you have to hone it? And what advice you have for people who struggle with this?

Speaker 10 Yeah.

Speaker 10 It's not necessarily natural to me, but I think that what is natural to me is

Speaker 10 that I don't...

Speaker 10 I can't like, there's no artifice with how I am online because I honestly don't know how to do that. I mean, and

Speaker 10 it's not false humility. I just don't know.
I don't know how to be anything other than who I am, you know? So

Speaker 10 I think the tricky part there, and I think why people sometimes struggle with it, is that there is a vulnerability in that, right?

Speaker 10 That if you are just who you are, and if you just put yourself out there, that people are not necessarily going to like you, right? That they're going to react to you in a negative way.

Speaker 10 And, but what I have learned is that that's just, that's just kind of part of it.

Speaker 10 You know, that's kind of part of being out there as a professional i also think though that there's a difference between being personal and being personable

Speaker 10 and so i

Speaker 10 I am authentic and I share who I am and I show my beloved little dog and I show my family and I show like what I love and who I am on on social media and through my writing and through my work.

Speaker 10 But I don't really get personal because I feel like there's a line there and I think that'll shift depending on who you are as a professional.

Speaker 10 but for me like I've found the place where I'm comfortable like I'm comfortable you know being vulnerable to a point but but not over sharing you know and I think it's I'm struggling a little bit with articulating that but I think it's a very personal thing you know I think you've got to decide how much you're willing to show and for some people that's going to be way more than I do and for some people it's going to be a little bit less I don't think it really matters where that line is.

Speaker 10 I just think you have to figure out where you're comfortable with that line being, number one.

Speaker 10 And then number two, I do think you have to be relatable and personable. And so that's another thing that Brian Fanzo and I have in common.

Speaker 10 We talk about it in different ways, but we talk about being relatable.

Speaker 10 And so that's what I strive for all the time, because there's nothing I hate worse than seeing somebody, you know, who is in a position of power, who has been, who has accomplished a lot in their career, say, or any of those things.

Speaker 10 And they just feel like

Speaker 10 they're not approachable.

Speaker 10 and they they try to um they they sort of have this artifice about them and there's sort of a wall set up and I don't like I don't understand that I don't know why people do that and again I don't really know how to create that wall

Speaker 10 so so yeah for me I guess it's it's been an evolution because I'm I haven't always been willing to do that but once I started just allowing myself to be to show a little bit more of who I am that I realized oh um you know that this is this is good like this is, feels comfortable to me.

Speaker 8 This is something that I've struggled with my entire career. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Because,

Speaker 8 and I almost struggle it with it to the other way. So for me,

Speaker 8 I'm the same way. I don't know how to package myself in any other way than exactly who I am.
Like it's so like I'm, I'm such a, I'm a terrible liar.

Speaker 8 Like my wife always says, like, I know when you bought a Dunkin' Donuts coffee because I can see it in your eyes. Like you can't hide it from me.
Right. Like, um,

Speaker 8 it,

Speaker 8 I just don't, I just can't. Like, I just, I don't have it in me.
Like, I start to, I look down. I'm just terrible.
Like, if I'm not being exactly who I am, then I'm, it's so blatantly obvious.

Speaker 8 So I've just tried not to be that way.

Speaker 8 But what I've struggled with is the, so, so you talked before about like packaging up your, who you are and what you deliver and your, your offering and that kind of stuff.

Speaker 8 And I have actually in my career now for other people as a, as a marketing and sales professional, I'm able to do this for them. But for myself, like packaging myself, I am terrible at it.

Speaker 8 Like I just feel like when it comes to write the what am I going to give you, it's like all of a sudden the pen stops, the ink goes dry, my arm cramps up, like now I'm hungry and I can do anything except for package my ideas of what I'm going.

Speaker 8 Like, does that make sense to you? Like, I just struggle so much with that.

Speaker 8 Because it feels like I'm being, I don't know why, but there is this personal, I feel like like now that I'm packaging myself in a positive way,

Speaker 8 all of a sudden, all the breaks, all the resistance comes in, and I can't actually use any of my creative abilities at all. Is that?

Speaker 10 Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 10 What if you talked about it not in terms of what you do, but what you do for others?

Speaker 10 So in other words, rather than focusing on packaging you, what if instead you talked about a client you helped or one person who was affected by advice you gave them or you know something something along those lines so take it outside of you in other words and and frame it more in the in the results that you gave one person yeah thought about doing that yeah i you know that that usually be then i'll just talk to myself in the third person like i like i'm and then that usually like this ryan over here does this stuff and he's super cool and you should pay for all his stuff um that's funny no you know chip tim urban wait but why do you you follow him?

Speaker 8 Yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 10 That just reminded me of like his monkey, his monkey buddy. You know, he's like, oh,

Speaker 10 I was right, excuse me.

Speaker 8 I know. Well, sometimes I get a dog sleeping on a chair right over there.
And sometimes I just talk to her. Yeah.
Her name's Isabella. And it just, it gives you like a person or a thing.

Speaker 8 I mean, that poor dog knows more about me than she ever cared to know about. So

Speaker 10 that's so funny. Yeah.

Speaker 10 Well, just like, just to go back to the, like, even to the newsletter or creating content or, or, you know, starting, you know, any kind of of channel or content program or way to communicate with prospects and customers in your audience that's exactly what i do though i i talk to one person i've i've talked about this a number of times but just really thinking about that one person who i'm writing that letter to that email newsletter every other sunday that's the only way that i can really get out of my own head and and sort of get out of my own way because i'll i'll focus on one person i'll i won't say like you know dear ryan but i'll say you know i'll be thinking about you in my head as i'm writing and it really helps me make it conversational and make it ultimately really useful to the person i'm writing to and as a result like you know the rest of the audience as well by proxy just by thinking about that one person haven't a lot of um a lot of well-known authors have done this as well like didn't ben franklin write to his his his cousin or something or his brother and you know even though he wasn't actually writing for that person and yeah uh you know they you you pick an individual and there's another famous example that I'm missing.

Speaker 10 But like, I talk about, yeah, Warren Buffett writes his letter to shareholders to his sister.

Speaker 8 That's another one.

Speaker 10 Yeah. Yeah.
I talk about that on stage quite a bit.

Speaker 10 I talked to, I was at a talk yesterday, which is why I had to postpone our conversation that we were originally scheduled for yesterday until today, because I was speaking to a group in Boston.

Speaker 10 And somebody came up, I told that story. about writing to one person.
I told the Warren Buffett story.

Speaker 10 And someone came up to me afterward and they said, it's so funny you said that because I write to my mom every time I have to sit down to write an email sales letter, you know, and I was like, that's so great.

Speaker 10 It's like, hey, mom, here's what's up, you know?

Speaker 8 Yeah. And

Speaker 8 it's funny how

Speaker 8 it's funny how some of these, you know, tricks or hacks, however you want to, they really do crack whatever that wall is that was keeping you from getting to the words or to the ideas.

Speaker 8 Like whatever it is, you know, if maybe it's getting hyped up on caffeine or maybe it's going for a run or a walk or listening to

Speaker 8 you know sometimes hardcore 90s gangster rap like just whack it just cracks it you know what I mean like you know little Wu-Tang just gets everything going and you're you're ready to go and I think it's so specific for everyone

Speaker 8 but you do need to find that thing because

Speaker 8 So often the people that I find who want to create more but are struggling to do so, it's because they don't have, they haven't built a prompt into their life, whether it's writing to one singular person, whether that be an individual or a persona, you know, writing to their self, thinking in the third person, talking to their dog, Wu-Tang.

Speaker 8 You know what I mean? They haven't done that work of

Speaker 8 finding what that thing is.

Speaker 10 I love that. I love that.
That was just like a series of prompts you just gave. I love that so much.
That's so good. Yeah, just before this call today, I was feeling very, like very low energy.

Speaker 10 I got up super early this morning. I didn't get a lot of sleep last night.
And I was just super low energy.

Speaker 10 And I thought, okay, I've got to like figure this out so I'm in Boston in Boston today it's about

Speaker 10 zero degrees Celsius so it's very cold actually it's colder than that I think it's like 11 degrees out or something like that

Speaker 10 and so I went out just ran around the block just super fast just like get myself going and it just it really helped a lot just in terms of getting my energy up getting back into it and so I do that a lot like in

Speaker 10 one of my promises I made to myself last year is outside every day one hour and that's just really changed a lot of how I go about my day because I schedule that hour just like I schedule a meeting, you know, just like I scheduled this call with you.

Speaker 10 Because, and I, and I don't break it every single day outside one hour. And it shifts my mind.

Speaker 10 It gives me the space to think about, you know, with more intention about what I'm doing throughout my day. And sometimes that relates to, you know, what I'm creating on the content side of things.

Speaker 10 And sometimes it just relates to just getting a break from your email, from the grind, you know, just taking a step back a little bit and just having that space.

Speaker 10 so that's another thing that's it's not wu-tang but it helps me a lot listening or listening to something or silence um it depends on the day um lately i've been listening to a lot of podcasts and so uh sometimes i'll do a podcast i'll listen to sometimes like a um

Speaker 10 oh actually did you have joe pulitzi on here yeah i did yeah yeah so you know he just wrote this murder mystery yeah so i read his book and now i'm listening to it i was he was he was generous enough to give me an early version of it.

Speaker 10 And so now I'm listening to it. And I expected that he would be reading it and he wasn't.
So at first I was disappointed, but now I'm really getting into it. So that's what I'm listening to right now.

Speaker 8 Yeah. He, um, so he, I, I asked him about that, about whether he read it or not.
Yeah. And he said that.

Speaker 8 because you have to do the different voices and it like you have to hire like an actor it's like a like a you know someone's profession is to walk through these different stories and um he just was like i didn't want to he goes it would disappoint more of my of my fans if i actually read it than if i didn't so i thought that was interesting yeah that's really funny yeah you know i've struggled with the podcast thing um i love podcasts i love them to death what i struggle with and and i guess this is the next question is about inputs is sometimes i feel like i get lost in other people's ideas um it's it's like a There is an amount of input from other places, which is very productive.

Speaker 8 And then

Speaker 8 there's a line at which it starts. I feel like I'm just filled with noise and it's, and it becomes a little jumbled.
I'm just interested in how you take in inputs. How, you know, is it, is it reading?

Speaker 8 Obviously, you do podcasts, audio books, you know, like, how do you take in inputs and how do you make sure that you, even though you're taking in these inputs, you're true to your thoughts and if that's even an issue for you.

Speaker 10 Yeah, that's funny.

Speaker 10 So the way that I try to balance that is that I, first of all, I totally agree with you because I have fallen into those situations where, you know, like I'll be, I'll have a thought and then it'll occur to me.

Speaker 10 Now, wait a second, was that my thought? Or did that actually, did I hear that on a Seth Godin podcast? You know, you know, and it's like, that's the last thing you want. So

Speaker 10 that my brain doesn't get too saturated with ideas from other people.

Speaker 10 That outside one hour every day. I typically, if I'm listening to a podcast, it's not a marketing podcast.

Speaker 10 I read marketing books,

Speaker 10 but for podcasts and anything audio for the most part, I don't listen to anything marketing related because

Speaker 10 that like that for me, that outside one hour every day would be my podcast time or my like my e-book time or my audio book time.

Speaker 10 And so I can't, I need a break from marketing for that time and just to ignite. different parts of my brain.
So I listen to non-marketing podcasts. I listen to non-marketing stuff.

Speaker 10 That's why I'm listening to Joe's book right now because it's not about marketing, although he has some funny Easter eggs in there for people who are marketers.

Speaker 10 And if you know Joe, it's even funnier. So, or I listen to like lately, I've been listening to Dak Shepard, armchair expert.
I don't know if you're a fan of that.

Speaker 10 It's like it's completely, he interviews celebrities or, you know, sort of higher profile people. And it's like, it's, you know, it has a, it's, it's not business at all.

Speaker 10 And so I need that just sort of complete. separation from yeah marketing because if the intent is to separate your body from your work for an hour, I also need to separate my mind.

Speaker 10 So I try to match those two up. You know, I'm like, if I'm taking a break, I'm taking a break.
I'm not going to sit here and like listen to

Speaker 10 somebody talking about marketing because I do that all day long.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 I,

Speaker 8 so I, I really love conspiracy theories. Like, not because I believe in all of them.
I just, there's just something about them that really hooks me. Like to just do it.

Speaker 8 And like, if I can catch a podcast of someone trying to convince me of like aliens or like ancient civilizations, like I am in.

Speaker 8 But what's funny, and this is, this is off topic, but like, is that I started down this rabbit hole and like, I listened to this one episode of Joe Rogan and this guy was on Graham Hancock and he talks about this early civilization, which is actually freaking fascinating.

Speaker 8 Doesn't matter. I won't, you know.

Speaker 8 But then I go down this rabbit hole with this guy.

Speaker 8 And now all of a sudden I'm like not doing my job because all I want to read about is these humans that existed 25,000 years ago that he's trying to like convince me.

Speaker 8 And I just said like, whoa, I got pumped the brakes. Like I need

Speaker 8 to, I need to make sure that if I go down, like I have to, like, I do have to come back to sales and marketing. Like, this is what I do for a living.

Speaker 8 But I agree with you. I don't listen to marketing podcasts either.

Speaker 8 I produce one, I guess. I guess this is my marketing podcast time is me trying to steal all your good thoughts for my audience.

Speaker 10 Yeah, well, I should say, like, I do listen to marketing podcasts, but not when I'm, not when I'm on a, on a, on a walk, like not when I'm doing that one hour thing.

Speaker 10 Um, like, you know, I listen to the marketing smarts podcast, but I listen to that like at like at my desk, you know, like at work time.

Speaker 10 And so, like, that's just the break that I need to take so that I don't get those, so that I balance out that, you know, taking in like the input with, with the output. So I'm not taking in too much.

Speaker 10 Cause, you know, to your point, there is so much, right? I mean,

Speaker 10 you can't. you know, there's, there's so many podcasts to listen to.
There's so many blogs to read and newsletters. And so I have to curate that pretty carefully.

Speaker 10 And so I try to to find the people who, first of all, don't think the way that I think. That's another

Speaker 10 reason, or that's another thing that I look for and how I don't get too saturated with it.

Speaker 10 Like, like

Speaker 10 there are some marketers who are sort of in our world that like I have a very similar outlook to them. And so their stuff I find that even though it's super valuable,

Speaker 10 it's almost too close to what I talk about.

Speaker 10 And so it's harder for me to really read too much of their stuff because i start to get influenced by them like and it's in a good way but it takes away a little bit of my voice and my own thoughts and so i have to be careful about that a little bit so for example just super specific example um i read avinash kaushyk right he's a data scientist at google i love avinash he's such a good friend he thinks about things

Speaker 10 that is like so different than the way that I think about things.

Speaker 10 My friend Chris Penn, I don't know if you have you ever had him on this podcast?

Speaker 8 I had him on a long, long time ago. Wait, like 2014.

Speaker 8 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 10 Yeah, he's got some new stuff going on. So he's another guy.
Like I read his newsletter because he and I, like, we talk about the same thing, but we have very different takes on it.

Speaker 10 And so like, those are the people who I seek out because I, you know, I need that to balance my own.

Speaker 10 prejudices like as a marketer that that's valuable to me but also they're so different that I don't get saturated because sometimes one of their something that they'll publish sparks something in me

Speaker 10 and I have always a different take on it. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 8 Yeah. No, I think to me, those are the, those are the types of inputs.
I think it's probably why I like conspiracy theories. Because

Speaker 8 like if you are 100% convinced that aliens exist, I might even be like 82% there, but if you're 100%, you're thinking about the world differently than I'm thinking about it.

Speaker 8 And I just, I don't care so much about the topic. I mean, literally input this crazy conspiracy theory with anything, but it's like, how did they get their mind to that point?

Speaker 8 And like, what was it about? Like, how did they connect that dot to that dot? And I didn't. Like, for me, those two things don't connect, but for them, they do.

Speaker 8 And right or wrong, you know, whether, you know, you

Speaker 8 insane or not.

Speaker 8 It's interesting from a behavioral standpoint to understand how they got to that, how they made that jump. Like, I just, I don't know.
I find that so interesting.

Speaker 10 Yeah, no, actually, it makes perfect sense.

Speaker 10 And what I really like about what you're saying, too, is that that's the exact exercise that I talk to marketers about all the time because what you're describing is why do you see the world the way you do you know and how did you get to that point like how did you what informed that decision and so that's really thinking about things from a very empathic point of view you're not saying you're crazy and just shutting it down because you believe in aliens and you're insane you're saying you know how why do you think that you know how did you come there what happened before you started thinking that like what informed that mind share that mindset and so i think that's a really valuable skill as a marketer.

Speaker 10 And it's just, it's, it all, I mean, it aids understanding your, your understanding of other people, but I think it also can really help you as a marketing and salesperson from a behavioral standpoint, from a

Speaker 10 really understanding how you can build trust with somebody, because the people you're marketing to, they may believe in aliens. I mean, I don't know, depending on what you sell.

Speaker 10 You know, maybe you sell anti-alien,

Speaker 10 you know, repellent or something like that. And if that's the case, then you've got to understand who you're talking to.

Speaker 10 So asking those questions, thinking about the world from a world view that's not your own, super valuable. It's really hard, but I never...

Speaker 10 Like I never thought about listening to podcasts like that. My friend Raheep Bhargava talks about reading magazines that are not intended for you as a way to sort of build empathy.

Speaker 10 And I do that, like I do that a lot of times when I'm traveling.

Speaker 10 So if I'm walking through an airport, you know, you walk by those Hudson News and I'll pick up, I don't know, Car and Driver or Country Living or something that's completely not what I would ever read because I'm curious in a similar way.

Speaker 10 But also, how do they package it? Like, how are they, what are the ads in here? Who are they actually focusing on? How are they talking to them?

Speaker 10 So just as an exercise to build empathy, I think it's a really fascinating.

Speaker 10 It's a really fascinating thing to do.

Speaker 8 Yeah, this is the last thing I'll talk about this topic. And I have one more question for you.
And then I want to be respectful of your time. But

Speaker 8 I actually did this experiment the other day where I listened to a podcast that was anti-nuclear power. And this take the politics out of this, but it was anti-nuclear power.
And then I went and found

Speaker 8 a respected podcast that was pro-nuclear power.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I

Speaker 8 literally listened to them back to back. And

Speaker 8 I had to listen to one before the other. So I listened to the anti-one first and then the pro-one second.

Speaker 8 And it was fascinating, fascinating to hear. And they were both done not in like an extremist way.
These were well thought out. Here's my case, rational arguments.

Speaker 8 Just one took a set of facts and pointed in one direction. And one took a set of facts and pointed in the other.
And

Speaker 8 they weren't trashing the other side. That's why I liked what I liked about this.
And

Speaker 8 it was fascinating to compare this. They would bring up this.
There were certain pieces of evidence that they both used. And in one case, they used that piece of evidence to point in one direction.

Speaker 8 In another case, they used that same piece of evidence to point another. And the persuasion techniques that these podcasters were using to make their argument was like,

Speaker 8 I mean, for, I mean, I'm assuming for you too, but like for people, like, it was like candy. It was like, it was like walking into a, well, for me, a cookie store.

Speaker 8 Like, if I had walked into a cookie store, that's what this was. Like, oh my God, look at all these different things that they're doing and the way they're framing this argument.

Speaker 8 And it's the exact same study, the exact same conversations. It was, it was awesome.
And in the end, you know, coin flip on which one is right.

Speaker 8 It's, you know, you all, everyone has their own beliefs and who really cares. That the politics weren't the point.

Speaker 8 It was just, it was so interesting to listen to this topic that most people don't even think about. We'll never consider.
hour-long podcasts trying to convince one way or the other. It was awesome.

Speaker 10 Why did you do that?

Speaker 8 Because I'm freaking insane.

Speaker 10 I was just, you know, seriously, I'm curious.

Speaker 8 made you think of that what made me think of it was um one i'm uh i'm incredibly interested in what motivates people to do certain things like it just drives me nuts i i i hate sha i i shouldn't say hate hate's a strong word i

Speaker 8 try not to accept shallow answers to questions,

Speaker 8 which is why this is really as much about getting information and sharing information with my audience as it is practice for me to get below the surface with whoever I'm talking to but in this particular one i was referred to this podcast called congressional dish and it's by a woman whose name has escaped me at the time but if you search congressional dish you'll find her and she did this um podcast on um the federal uh federal reserve

Speaker 8 um which

Speaker 8 again

Speaker 8 I'm just interested in these things, not this isn't political. So, because I, because really I don't care.

Speaker 8 But it was so well done.

Speaker 8 This guy just, a person I respect, tweeted, if you've ever been interested in the Federal Reserve in any reason, this is the best podcast ever created in the history of how the Federal Reserve was started.

Speaker 8 That was enough for me to go, I'm slightly interested in the Federal Reserve. I'll give this a listen.
And she was tremendous.

Speaker 8 It was so tremendously done that I said, I want to give another one of her episodes a try. So I gave this nuclear power one a try.

Speaker 8 And

Speaker 8 I disagree with her take on nuclear power.

Speaker 8 I think it can can be a clean source of energy that gets us off of fossil fuels, which is ultimately what I would like in a rational way that isn't perfect, but whatever. So I disagree with her point.

Speaker 8 So I said, I wonder what,

Speaker 8 so she made this argument and I saw certain persuasion techniques she was using to make her argument. And I said, I wonder what the counter argument for this is.

Speaker 8 So then I went and searched for a podcast and I can't remember which one I found because I did this like.

Speaker 8 three or four months ago, but like I found another podcast that gave the pro nuclear power thing.

Speaker 8 And I was like, I'm going to listen to hers again and then immediately listen to this one, which was two and a half hours of my life,

Speaker 8 but was still worthwhile because in the end, I was like, I still think I'm right about nuclear power, but it is incredibly interesting to think. And, you know,

Speaker 8 in some cases,

Speaker 8 they are asking you to take leaps of faith with them.

Speaker 8 There were some interesting gaps in their logic because you could see where in certain points, certain sides of the argument forced you to take leaps because they were biasing in a certain direction.

Speaker 8 And they both had to do it to make their point, which was really interesting. Like in some places, she had the logical next step

Speaker 8 and the other side had to take

Speaker 8 a gap leap to make their point and then vice versa. And it was just, you know, once you kind of listened to both sides, you started to see where they were like.

Speaker 8 forcing you to take logic gaps to or jump, you know, jump over gaps in the logic to follow their argument. And

Speaker 8 this is probably not interesting to anyone, but yeah,

Speaker 8 that's why, how I got there.

Speaker 10 Well, it's interesting to me. I mean, I just think it's, it's interesting just that you, that you saw that, though, right?

Speaker 10 I mean, just you saw that the difference between, you know, somebody can take the same research study or the same findings or results and

Speaker 10 see something completely opposite. And so.

Speaker 10 yeah, just like as an exercise in developing empathy and thinking about things from another person's point of view and allowing yourself to be challenged like that, I think is kind of interesting.

Speaker 10 So that's cool.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I think too, like what I, what it also did for me was I gained more, even though I disagreed with her opinion, I gained more respect for her because what it did was it validated that even though there were certain places where she was, you know, forcing you to take a jump in the logic, it wasn't in a nefarious way.

Speaker 8 Like she wasn't twisting the facts. She was just saying,

Speaker 8 my,

Speaker 8 you know, I think that this takes us this way and you know and really it's my buy my perception that you know went the other way so it was just really interesting but what it takes you back to i guess for me was

Speaker 8 in in getting taking it all the way back to marketing right

Speaker 8 you are there are going to be certain aspects of your offer of your product of how you enamor an audience to you of how you try to connect with the right people whose problems your your product can solve potentially like there are certain moments where you're forcing them to take a logic gap or i keep saying logic gap a leap in yeah their logic over you know to get there and um

Speaker 8 i guess what i struggle with is

Speaker 8 um

Speaker 8 some so i always want to err on the side of being as transparent with that happening as possible and i don't want to be huckstery right i don't want it to be an assumptive leap.

Speaker 8 I want to be like, look, here's the leap I'm asking you to take, but if you believe this, come jump with me.

Speaker 8 Not, I'm going to use, you know, everything from CL Dini's book to get you to make this jump, even though you don't really want to do it. I guess that's maybe a check on myself.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 10 Yeah. That's interesting.
Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 10 And the other thing that that just reminded me of is, you know, just to go back to what we were talking about a few minutes ago, about how difficult it is to package yourself and describe it, what you do.

Speaker 10 Sometimes when I've packaged myself in a certain way, or even through my writing, when I'm describing a scenario or when I'm, you know, sharing a story, sometimes the feedback that I'll get back

Speaker 10 from

Speaker 10 readers or from newsletter subscribers is like

Speaker 10 what they hear is different than what I said, you know?

Speaker 10 And so that's another really, I think, important reason why just being a constant creator, just creating something on a regular basis and talking to an audience, makes you a better marketer.

Speaker 10 Because you are able to get that immediate feedback loop and you see that maybe sometimes what you say or sometimes the way you interpret it or that leap that you took is not necessarily the leap that your audience is taking or that your customer or prospect will take for your product or service.

Speaker 10 And so

Speaker 10 I think it just strengthens that empathy muscle and I also think that it strengthens the communication muscle because you're taking that in and then saying, all right, that's the way she interpreted it.

Speaker 10 Well, that's interesting because I took this in a different direction. And that's a lesson that you can apply to growing your business as well.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 8 I also think,

Speaker 8 I have one more question that I want to ask you. This is just interesting.

Speaker 8 You know, you're,

Speaker 8 you're,

Speaker 8 you know, I feel like, and this is, I'm interested in your take on this. Like to me, you get,

Speaker 8 you buy yourself misses when you create more because it's more about your body of work and the impact that that has.

Speaker 8 But then, so if your frequency is very minimal, you know, you're creating once a year or, or, you know, just very rarely, then every single thing that you create is scrutinized.

Speaker 8 If you're more consistent or there's a cadence to it, then it's more about the general flow of value that you provide to people than it is any one particular topic. Because

Speaker 8 we're all going to miss or not have a connection on certain topics. I mean, it would be illogical to think that the other case.

Speaker 8 So, that consistency and stuff allows people to flow with you, it feels like. I don't know.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 10 Yeah, no, I like that. You buy yourself a you buy yourself a miss or you buy yourself misses.
Is that what you said? Yeah. Yeah, I like that a lot.
Yeah, I think that's really, really true.

Speaker 10 And I hadn't really framed it in that way, but

Speaker 10 yeah, 100%. I agree with that.
That's good.

Speaker 8 Okay. Here's my last question.
And I promise we will not take any more of your time.

Speaker 10 Yeah, this has been unexpected.

Speaker 10 The trajectory of this conversation has been unexpected in a very good way. So, you know.

Speaker 8 Good.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I don't have a plan, but like this crazy notebook starts to form and then that's how I get to where I'm going.

Speaker 8 This would, they would put me in in a, in a padded box if anyone ever looked at this notebook with the things that I write in here.

Speaker 8 But you, you're, you're, you're a speaker and you are a very highly regarded speaker.

Speaker 8 And my favorite thing to talk about, which we are not going to get to, but I just want to get your general feel for like, what is your favorite thing about being on?

Speaker 8 So I'm also a speaker, mostly to the insurance industry. That's, that's my area.

Speaker 8 But I just love, it's the closest thing to the exhilaration because I was an athlete. Like when I get up on stage, it's the closest thing I can get as an adult.

Speaker 8 Like, I'm not, I have kids, I'm not jumping out of an airplane. Like, I'm not, you know, doing anything super crazy, going cliff jumping or whatever because I want to be here for them.

Speaker 8 But, like, getting up on stage, I get that same rush of adrenaline. And I'm just interested in what does it mean to you? Like, what is your feelings when you're out there and you're killing it?

Speaker 8 Or, or not? Like, what is that? Like, what does that mean to you? What is that feeling to you? I just.

Speaker 10 yeah that's interesting

Speaker 10 so I I never wanted to be a speaker you know as I said I started my career as a as a writer I always wanted to be a writer and I didn't think of myself as a speaker you know like a lot of speakers I'm you know I'm more introverted I tend to I mean, I'm not super introverted, but I definitely get my energy not from being around a ton of people.

Speaker 10 And so that said, like, you know, being in an being in an event is like it it requires a lot from me I mean I love it but it also does require a lot of energy from me that I need to then restore with that one hour a day typically outside

Speaker 10 but so I've never really craved like that moment like I've we have some speaker friends who like they love being on stage they live for stage they did theater when they were in high school I missed maybe for you like being out on the athletic field would be a similar sort of rush like I was never that person I was always very much behind the scenes but then i realized that you have to be seen you know to have your to have an impact you've got to be seen and i and i felt like i had something to say i had i feel like i will i do have a way that I have a take on things that's different than other people.

Speaker 10 I have a sense that I can help marketers and businesses. And so I wanted to deliver that message.
And so that's really what drove me to get on stage. You know,

Speaker 10 I wrote a book. I had to share that message.
and that sort of was the trigger that got me there.

Speaker 10 But when I got there, I realized just how powerful that platform really is.

Speaker 10 And I realized that I'm good at it and I worked at it and I really love it. Like I love being on stage and I love talking to people because I love entertaining them and making them laugh.

Speaker 10 But I also love sharing really important lessons that are sort of

Speaker 10 wrapped in that humor. So it's one part entertainment, one part education, and there's really no other way to deliver that

Speaker 10 than being on stage at a live event. There's so many things that can go wrong.
There's so many things that can go right. And I love that sort of that tightrope that you're walking constantly.

Speaker 10 So there is that feeling that you're making an impact and it is in real time.

Speaker 10 And it's, you know, it's never the same twice. I mean, there's just so much about it that I've really grown to love.
But, you know, the first thing is I think that I feel like I have something to say.

Speaker 10 I wanted to say it.

Speaker 10 And I think that being on stage and delivering it in person to actual people in the audience and seeing them react real time, making them laugh, making them think is just, it's so gratifying. And

Speaker 10 when you see somebody do it well, I think, I mean, I really appreciate it even being in the audience too, just seeing that.

Speaker 10 It's just, it's changed the way that I think about being on stage and stage work, you know.

Speaker 8 Well, we are so glad that you do what you do. And if you listen to this podcast and you have not read Ann's book, Everyone Writes, This is a Must Get,

Speaker 8 Google that, go to Amazon, go to annhanley.com. You can find everything there.
I'll have links in the show notes, but don't go to my stuff. Go directly to her.

Speaker 8 So her Google gets the hits and then she gets all the little dopamine hits in her brain because she sees her Google Analytics go up.

Speaker 8 But I just, I think the world of your work, I'm very grateful that you do what you do and that you find joy in it because that comes through in it and then we get to siphon some of them off for ourselves.

Speaker 8 Thank you so much for your time and I wish you nothing but the best.

Speaker 10 Thank you so much for having me.

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Granger for the ones who get it done.