Billy Crudup on Working with Adam Sandler & George Clooney + Theater Horror Stories

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Let me see what you got, Space. Look,

not as good. Not as good.

Scribbles. I called for line, and we didn't have any system in place for line, so calling it back.
From the booth, I hear our poor stage manager go, I don't really have an injury.

We're looking at a music room.

Yeah, you have to tell the audience there's real bullets and you're really shooting at each other. It's a great idea, Dave.
And one person put it on the playbill. That's the kind of producing we need.

So Billy crude is, what did we? He's on the morning show.

He's in Prefontaine, right?

Yeah, I was really excited to talk to Billy because I've just, you know,

he's one of those just kind of always good actors, you know.

Everything he does is great. He's amazing in the morning show, like an electric.
Yeah. And yet he's sort of under the radar as a celebrity.
I don't know how you describe those kinds of people.

He's always good, but

he's not around. Then he comes in.
He's always great. And he's in Jay Kelly, which he was promoting with

Adam Settler and George Clooney. Yeah.
And just very, very interesting guy to talk to. Very interesting.

Adam says a lot of great things about him because once we talked to him, I went on the road with Adam and loves this dude, thinks he's a big star. He's a great-looking, cool dude.

You guys got into that Pre-Fontaine movie a lot. Yeah, and he starred as Steve Prefontaine.
There was a few movies about this famous Olympic runner from the 70s, and his was great.

He did a great job with that. So, I don't know, it was just fun talking to a guy like that.

You know, he's in so many once you see his face, he's he's very well known anyway, but you go, Oh, that guy, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, we were watching Spotlight last night, it's a Michael Keaton movie.

Is he in Spotlight, and then he shows up in Spotlight, it's like, and he's great, you know. So, anyway, really fun, nice guy, and um,

highly entertaining, highly intelligent.

Anyway, I enjoyed it. I hope you will.

Here he is, Billy Cruder.

We're not going to talk about how good looking he is. We're going to skip that because people get sick of it.

Look at those notes.

Look at his goodness.

Let me see what you got, Space. Look.

Not as good. Not as good.

Scribbles.

That's right. You and I found out

Justin Thoreau.

When I found out you were friends, I went, oh, that makes sense. Yeah, we this is how I connect it.

Good-looking guys, handsome guys, because obviously Spade and I are, you know, sex symbols with a small S, but you guys,

and you don't, you don't play it up that much. The small what? You know, which S? Is it the sex or the symbol that's small? I don't know.

Or the wiener.

Somewhere an angel gets their wings when he says wiener.

Got it in fast this show. This is where Justin and I met.
We were doing a play in New York, and he and Paul Giamatti and I were all in the

three of us used to take breaks regularly while the rest of them were doing drama to go play video games in New York Times Square. And that's when he and I became friends back in 1996.
Whoa.

There's something about you guys. I'd say two ex-cons, you know, white-collar criminals become undercover cops.
And it's called We Know All the Tricks.

We go to the same same surgeon we've been using the same guy year after year gio motti decided to go with a different guy

god these are three of my favorites you you're already in my top three

giamatti i love talking to justin and now you we could stop right now you guys are my because that guy's both those two are they're incredible incredible i can't keep up with them well gio motti is just yeah he's a monster yeah are you in new york now uh i'm in la right now just doing some pressing stuff um

Now, here's a big question everyone gets with you. Is it three options are crude up, crude, or crucial? Some people pronounce it fuckwad.

Fuckface. Fuck wad.
My family and I have always pronounced it.

Crude up.

Crude up. It's German, and I think there used to be an umlaut over it.

Uhmla, yeah, like in Lowenbrau. Yeah, crude up.
Yeah. I'm doing a movie with Bill.

Kudap. That's right.
You did that play where you played 14 characters.

Did you do a lot of different voices and accents? Can you do seven of them? Could you do...

I've already seen German.

Hey, I'm not giving it away for free, pal. If you're going accepting on the side, I'll give you three.

I heard that movie Multiplicity with Keaton was seven or eight. That was...
I thought that was impossible. Yeah, this was a play where you came out naked and then you you do 14 characters.

I think you're conflating two things, Dan.

I'm not a good researcher. That's right.
Your fantasies and the actual off-broadway production.

Actually, no, the theater that I did do the play in, that was the first place I ever did a play in New York in 1994. And in fact, there was a scene where I appeared completely naked for $225 a week.

And what I might say was a relatively chilly theater. That being said.
Yeah, I would say that. You had to

saying

put it on the playbill it was it was an esoteric think piece on japanese internment camps so i'm sure you didn't miss it spade

you know what i was sick that week but um

i usually try to get out and watch the boards

spade worked as a

stand-in naked guy remember the broadway show you did spade there was a guy's supposed to be naked and then you would stand in for him it was kind of a shadowy thing and that was the last time we used stand-ins on stage yeah it was the stage version of Police Academy 4.

It said, there's no such thing as a stand-in. It's like, well, I'm here and I'm naked.

When I'm a stand-in, the audience goes like this, girl or boy. And they go.

They just go spade. And that's all.
Yeah, they go, it's a spade, whatever that is.

The other one that I did was...

I told a story for, you know, an hour about a guy who's going through a bit of an identity crisis. And he's from Indiana, but he grew up wanting to speak with a British accent.

So his dad beat the shit out of him. And he'd never, none of them had ever been to England, but he didn't like, he didn't like that his son liked to speak like this all the time.

And so he came up with this other alter ego, which was like, oh, go, you want to fuck with me? Go fuck yourself. How about that, dad? You know, just take this punch in the nuts.

You know, so there was that kind of character was going back and forth. So I was having dialogues between the two of them.

And so at the end of it, you just feel like you've seen a story and then the lights come up and it's just one dude so you go oh theater's fun so that was the kind of whole is that the 14 one you're saying yeah oh wow so you had to do all that is very tough to do it was it well

it it was so tough in fact david that they uh during the first preview uh first week of previews i i went up i forgot my lines and um so we didn't i've never forgotten my lines like that and uh i started to have a full-blown panic attack you know you get tunnel vision my heart's coming out of my chest and there's only 150 people there it's not like anything terrible is going to happen but still you feel responsible for their 30 in each uh seat so i called for line and we didn't have any system in place uh for line so calling it back from the booth i hear our poor stage manager go i don't know if we get your family what are you gonna do

At which point,

I shit my pants, the full norm pitch everywhere. I cut about 20 minutes from the show, and it's a thriller that things are supposed to accumulate over time.

So nobody knew what the hell I was talking about. And then I get home, and my wife is like, I'm sure it wasn't that bad.

And I'm telling this story a couple of years later, and there's silence at the end. We're at a brunch, and there's silence at the end of the table.
And this director, who my wife knows, says, Gabby,

I'm sure it wasn't that bad, right? And she goes, I was at that production that night.

One of the worst experiences of my life.

I'm the worst.

But you know what?

You won't pay. Audience would never forget it, though.
I'd actually rather see a debacle because

it was a complete train wreck. Why do they say that's like Saturday Live? Yeah.
This is, we have so many, it's going to be a two-hour.

But why do they say when an actor loses their train of thought or they've gone up? Is that the expression?

I mean, this is the first time I've thought about it, Dana, but I suppose because when you forget your lines, you typically go like this.

Oh, yeah,

looking for him. You look up because you go, wait, what am I? Yeah, maybe that's it.
I don't know. I'm sure there's a better explanation.

The first few beats, they think you're acting, so they don't know. And then someone, is it

you're standing supposed to yell it out? Is someone important to me?

Well, typically it's a stage manager, but actually, that reminds me of another time that I went up, but I didn't have a panic attack on this one. It was just a quick, you know, as you get older,

you

I think this is my theory, guys. Any actor already has a brain that's hardwired for internalizing text.
So you can take a speech, you read it once or twice, and you know the general gist of it.

You get the story of it, and the words kind of go. You just have a brain that's ready for that.
And as you get older, that starts to atrophy a bit. And you don't

until you're in front of people, and all of a sudden, the words aren't there. And I was doing a play with Martha Plimpton and Ethan Hawke, amongst many others.

And I had this big, long, like five-minute monologue. And at the beginning of it I went up and that was the first time I'd really gone up

on stage and I thought it was kind of funny so I just kind of paused and I'm supposed to be lecturing the whole group and they're listening to me and I pause and I was like

it works this is an awkward experience and so I went and sat down and just kind of put my hands together waiting for the lines to come and to watch Martha Plimpton go go from fake listening to real listening was my most joyful

things happening

yeah

this isn't the way it's supposed to be they have to adjust their acting because you're adjusting you're acting like oh he's doing this happening exactly somebody might yeah

they think you're coming over to make a new move on your speech and you're they're like okay we're doing this now you're right there might be billy's going to improv some tom stoppers

some Some Tom Stoppert.

It was a Tom Stoppert play. Oh, improvising there.
That's funny.

Sounds like a Dennis Miller reference. Try six.
Oh, Dennis Miller had some great references. Tommy Stopper.
You know, it's like the Sam Shepherd of the East Side. All right.

I don't know where that came out.

I just watched Baby Boom last night with my wife, daughter of Diane Keaton. Yeah.
Sam Shepard was in that.

It's slapstick. It's 1930s.
It's absolutely brilliant. And so is Diane Keaton and Sam Shepard.
But anyway.

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So, where do you want to begin? I mean, morning show's out now.

Yep, we've got the fourth season out now.

And,

you know, it feels like we did it more than a year ago. I could barely remember what happened, but I know it's been a great experience working on it.

I've never worked on a character, you know, more than a couple of months. So, to return to this,

this guy where they keep writing, you know, weird shit for me to do has been, it's been really fun.

And actually, the best part has been just being with the cast and the crew because it's been seven years now. And you never get a chance when

you, I mean, you've had the, you know, I do plays and movies and wherever kind of the jobs come up.

So it's like three months somewhere and you get really intense with a group of people and then you don't see them again for a while.

So this one, getting to come back again to Los Angeles year and year with the crew and the cast has been that's been fucking awesome. I'll say that uh, this is a true story.

So, my wife and I are watching, I guess, season three or something, and John Hamm's in it, and you're in it.

And you know, you go with live streaming shows, just you sometimes you miss a season, you come back.

So, we watched your character who's sort of a genius, egomaniac, and just and by the end of it, we went, fuck

Billy Cruddup. I mean, we both said he,

we were just sort of reintroduced to you by that season and that arc and that character where someone is so in the pocket and so rhythmic and so connected and those monologues and your alpha male confidence.

It just must have been a blast, but it really landed with us. We were like, hey, honey, you want to watch anything else? Like, fucking Billy Cross.

I had to convince them that they didn't want me for that part.

I had just done that

play where I was doing all those different characters. So I was like,

no, if you guys give me a lot to say, I bet I can do it. Okay.

And then when I read that specific character, if you've ever spent any time in New York and gone to a gala of any kind, it's just riddled with dudes who are room readers looking for the power.

They don't care about the charity. They don't care about their jobs, whatever.
They just want to be in proximity to power and they know how to read people. They talk fast.
They think fast.

They're very proud of themselves. They've never failed before.
If they have, they thought it was a lark.

and so that's not how i live it's a sweaty experience for me being in those but i i knew those guys and so when those monologues started to come um the writer carrier and she just started writing them for me like she would use the kinds of ways of speaking that i would use so it was i i and i never had that experience either it was just she was teeing it up for me so all i had to figure out how to do is think more quickly because the guy thinks in paragraphs He doesn't think in, you know, like little phrases.

And he's sure he's seeing around corners, knows a lot more than everybody else does, very proud of himself. It's very easy.
It's a good character in that environment, too, because everybody's so

the stakes are so high. Everything's so

kind of wound tight.

It's so tightly wound. And so when you've got a guy who comes in and goes, hey, this won't be a problem.
Let me tell you the 50. Very laissez-faire.

The audience gets a quick reprieve, and then you get back to the drama.

The smartest guy in the room who knows he's the smartest guy in the room.

And you know what's funny too, Dana, is that there are plenty of producers out here and politicians too, who will either come up to me or come up to my agent and say, that's based on me, isn't it?

Because they're sure

they're the smartest guy in the room.

Really? And Bernie Sanders said that to you.

Wait, how would he have said it, Dana? Yeah.

I'm, you base the character on me.

did you did you just have a cup of coffee this is how i talk i'm 84 do not proceed why do him as a crosswalk guard in my standing back don't proceed don't proceed the system's rigged the system's rigged

uh he has a lot of energy for an 84 year old he sure does he sure does only 84

yeah uh billy got a good line in the pilot where

well well the setup is we're setting the whole stage for the whole series, but I thought the pilot was super cool because it's very glossy, very expensive. It looks great.

Mimi later, I guess, is director from the old ER days, maybe?

Indeed. She had an early Halloween winner.

And so

when Steve Crell gets fired and Jennifer Anderson is sort of soaking in it,

and he says, nobody wants to watch a widow get fucked.

I'm like, if I was reading the pilot, I would circle that and go, make sure that stays in. Let me tell you, and that was a temp one.
They were like, We're gonna go ahead and do a couple takes of this.

Uh, we're not entirely sure, and I have to say, I think we have a couple others that were even uh

um

rougher

the right way, yes,

for a more late-night audience, but you need those lines that stand out like that. Everyone goes, Whoa, okay, and I would say it, and and they'd go cut, and I'd say, I need a shower.

That would be a while,

man. Are you guys actually going to put that out there? Yeah.

Steve Currell being a bad guy is just so much fun to me. Oh, that was great.
He was brilliant in that. I was excited to see him go.
Such a sweet, sweet guy.

There's one little fetish I have about this interview, and that is that you play, I'm a track and field guy, and I am

a distance running mile through. Oh, you did? All right.
I knew about

pre-fun tanks. Yes.
Yeah.

And,

you know, yours was. I'm a play-the-field guy, but go ahead.
Okay, that's similar, but not the same.

That's not a dick athlete. That's a dick athlete, right? That's something like that, yeah.

I interrupted Dan. Dana's actually a good runner, so I'm glad we're talking about this.
I was during that running, and Pre-Fontaine was the Beatle of distance running, and Jared Leto did one

called Prefontaine the year before. And then yours was without limits, and you had Donald Sutherland.
And I was just curious about your training.

Did you do sports in high school? I did.

My dad was kind of a jockey guy. My granddad,

he set records, high school records in boxing and football and track in North Carolina. And he had all the pictures up, all the clippings.

and the trophies and stuff. And my dad was always trying to live up to that, tried out for the semi-pro Jets team, but blew out both shoulders and uh was selling yarn um but he was

a natural next move you know every all of the guys who don't make it into the semi-pro they get that's selling yarn one way or the other um but he had a a crazy affection for sports um and you know it it um it ended up coming out

um in

a not necessarily legal way. He was a it was a bookie for many years.

But we had TVs on all the time. And so sports, it was a big thing.
I don't know if you guys ever saw the great Santini.

We both lived it. We had kind of a dad's cool.
Oh, really? Dad saw that. He called us sports fans for about two years.
And

he was the kind of guy who my brother played baseball in high school.

And my dad would bring, you know, uh six pack of Miller High Life or whatever, start to get drunk in the stands, start yelling at the umpire, get kicked out to the parking lot where he had another six-pack and start laying on the horn and yelling at him from out in the parking lot.

So there was a lot of sports.

And I was, you know, I was the feelings guy. I was short and skinny, and I put on shows and stuff, but I liked to compete.
And about when you get to high school,

first of all, a fastball, your freshman year,

if you're not feeling it, that looks really fast. And

baseball wasn't going to be the thing for me. And soccer, which I had played since I was like, you know, first grade or whatever,

I became, you know, a lot slower as the guys got faster. So much so they called me Flash for a while.
And I thought, nope, that's not for me either. But I had always

wrestled since fourth grade. And that's when, you know, it's a handicap system.
So you're always wrestling, guys, your weight.

So I wrestled when I was in high school, but I was not a great asset to the team. The year I was-who was your weight class? Yeah, what were you? I was 148,

and I think we had 152 at the time.

Were you? That's big for me. I would have wrestled.

Oh, you were a heavyweight. I don't even know how tall you are.
I don't know anything.

It's not necessarily fat. It's booked.

I would have wrestled it at 112, I think.

I was about, honestly, I was 114 or something. I was like a fucking full pip squeak.

But I loved the competition. So when

I got to do that movie, yeah, I did like exercising and stuff, but there was a woman named Patricia Donnelly who was in another of Robert Towne's movies called Personal Best,

which was, yeah, you remember that, David.

I do, sort of. I know you do.

Robert Towne made a lot of great movies.

There was a relationship between two of the athletes, and there was a shower scene. That's why I'm thinking you might remember that.

All right, let's look at a class yeah so we did our research about you and you did your research about david that i mean yeah

research comes from just taking a hard look at him right there that's nothing to know it's all big shoes and so um she said

listen the the the thing that'll screw you up if you do this is if we run anything more than 200 meters at a time because we're gonna we're gonna do these takes and right then we're gonna there's gonna be an hour between the setup and during that time if you cool down, you're going to tear something when we get back up and going again.

So I'm only going to train you with intervals. And we spent about like six weeks training out here.
And the guy ran in a kind of specific way. He's sort of barrel chested and

ran with his chest. He stamped arms a little bit.
Exactly. He's kind of giving it.

And yeah, he wasn't as efficient as some of the other runners. He liked to run with guts.
So I just had an incredible time getting to hang out with all those people and

some really world-class athletes and runners, you know, that, and all of them,

when you see middle-distance runners, it looks like they're jogging. They're running like four-minute mile pace.
You know, they're just so efficient with their movement.

And a four-minute mile pace for anybody else is a full sprint.

Learning how to do that, you know, was

that was that was a really fun experience. They want to see them chunk together and it looks like they're all going medium.
Totally. Because they're are all together.

But if anyone else was running, they wouldn't be able to keep up.

100%. You can't really tell.
The cardio on those guys, it's unusual. They all have, you know, pretty physiologically unique bodies.
Yeah, VO2 Max is a big

measurement. And Prefontaine was 84, 85.

There was a Norwegian cross-country skier that was 93. Then some of the people stopped testing.
But Lance Armstrong apparently was an 83 or an 84. He knew he couldn't beat a 91 or a 92.

Just the engine, the way your oxygen gets to your muscles and through your cardiovascular system, your heart, lungs, arteries, and all that.

And so, if you're really efficient and you have a gift, like you

had a head start a little bit, yeah, you definitely do. That's the gift of it.
You just can run and then you can train it. But what, so I thought it was great.
I thought you really captured it.

And Donald Sutherland was

great as Bowerman. So

that was a tremendous movie. And Conrad Hall, who shot Bonnie and Clyde, he was our cinematographer.
And

the fact of the matter, I was just scared shitless. That was my first big part.
And I did not want to let anybody down. And I wasn't sure that I was up for the task, you know.

And so I couldn't really ever take the time to

enjoy the fact that I got to was getting a chance to work with these, you know, great people.

Conrad Hall was testing out some new equipment because he wanted to do

these specific kinds of shots where he was using a very long lens at magic hour.

So low light, long lens means you have a very small depth of field, which means the focus puller, if you are running at him, has to be able to keep up with you in a very precise way.

Otherwise, you know, you'll be in real time. It's constantly in real time.

He was developing the laser at the time. He was one of the first ones using the laser to try to, well, meanwhile, I'm running over these hills again and again and again.

He's like, sorry, we got precisely, which is not the exact great attitude to take with Conrad Hall.

Never.

So it was, it was, it was a bit of a mixed bag. I look back at it now and I think, oh man, I wish I wasn't such a

I don't know. I thought you came.

I thought your pre was great and I thought you actually had a resemblance once you got the kind of wig on and everything and you're playing this insecure but hyper confident, hypercocky.

I mean, Pri was so charismatic. He was.
I'll get it down to a pure guts race because then no one can beat me. His interviews are bonkers when you look.
I mean, he had such incredible confidence. And

he also, he had, he was kind of prescient about athletics as well. He was one of the first guys who was advocating, saying, you're not paying for anybody.
You should pay for somebody.

I mean, these amateur athletes are busting their balls. They're living in, you know, squalor.
And

the colleges are making money off of it.

Yeah, I've I've always said that. Like, the Olympics is another feels like a scam because you go there, you train your whole life, and then it's over.
And then

even if you won, what's next? Coaching? I mean, totally, you win or you lose even worse. So, you trained all that for nothing or whatever.

And then you go, I have to start studying for a life or a career or this life.

Because I love amateur athletics. I do love it.
It's a big sacrifice for sure.

I went to Carolina, so I'm a college basketball fan, and trying to figure out,

one of the things that is exciting about watching college athletics is you will inevitably be watching a game where a young person becomes themselves and they'll do it in front of a crowd of 30,000 people.

And it is incredible to watch. All of a sudden, this young athlete becomes the professional athlete that he's going to be the rest of his life.
And that's cool.

You know, you don't, if you're paying for it one way or another, I'm not sure you're going going to get the same experience, but obviously, I always thought it should be deferred income.

They should be able to,

there's like a pool of money that at 25, they start to get to

tap into the rest of their lives or something like that. But I don't know.
Well, at least they can do NIL. I mean, name image likeness.
They can monetize. Yeah, they can do that.
Yeah, exactly.

So that's, you know, they almost don't use any of those letters. It's just money.
It's like, what happened to the image? Like they go, no, no, we'll just shovel you some cash.

Well, some of those attractive people or gymnasts, they can go on Instagram, whatever. They make really good money.
They got to stay in school, but there's a lot of money in professional sports.

I'll just go out and say it. I don't know if you're going to get that.
Yeah, that's a hot take. It is.
But you want to get like Brock Purdy of the 49ers.

He came in as the... you know, the last guy drafted, and then he had these great seasons, but he got his contract.
He's hurt now.

And it had a guarantee. Yeah, he's rolling out there with 900 grand a year when everyone else is getting 40 million.
He must be like, my ship better come in soon. Right.

If he finishes this game, then he's on to his 200 million dollar contract. Oh, he's tackled.
He's down. They're taking him off.
Yeah, I wouldn't give it to him. I wouldn't give it to him.

$3,800.

Absolutely.

Heartbreaking. It's so brutal.
They're calling it now. I mean,

they've got the lines up on every game while you're watching them. So the probability to have a career will be the next one.

These are the actors where we have nine lives. We can keep coming back.
It's true. There is.
I watch those running backs. They're like, this is the running back for the next four years.

And they pull their hamstring. They go, next guy up.
We forgot about the other guy already.

It's unreal. It really is.

That's a rough one. Shall we talk about Jay Kelly? Oh, yeah, man.
Let's talk.

I didn't want to drive the interview because I could talk to you about free for a half hour.

Well,

it was a fun experience. And typically it's the people who were runners in high school or college that respond to it.
So I'm always happy to talk about it. But yeah, Jay Kelly.

You know who does some running in this? George Clooney.

Clooney running?

He's not doing the same kind of running. He's running from something.
But

yeah, what is the premise? Well, the premise is there's a guy who's in the last part of his career, an actor, a big, famous, fat movie star, and he's got two daughters who he has a kind of

unfamiliar relationship with. They both wanted more from him than he could give.
And he finishes this one big picture and he's at home, has a like sort of brief rest, and his mentor dies.

And he goes to the memorial, sees some of his old friends, some of his old classmates. and realizes that maybe in this process of trying to pursue this career, he's missed out on his life.

And, you know, for me,

there's something just gorgeous about George playing that character.

And Adam is his agent and is absolutely spectacular.

And he's really loving, adoring, kind. Yeah, he's a nice guy.
He's a nice guy in it, right? Sure. Yeah, Adam.
He's beautiful.

Yeah.

And George is too. And, you know, it's also too about America and how we attach our own expectations on the movie stars.
That's like the gilded idea of what if everything goes perfect.

You could end up with this sort of life where limousines are always pulling up for you and you're in the perfect and is it perfect?

It's a great interesting concept because someone who doesn't get to do that, they have their kids and they give up their career. The whole life they're going, wow, what if I had that?

You know, I never got that. And then the person gets it goes, I didn't get that.
I didn't get the other thing, which they got.

I'm going to put this out there for you guys to discuss, but I do think there's something very American about that.

This capitalistic idea that we're the land of opportunity leaves a lot of people feeling like, because most of the lives that people lead are normal and they are fine, but they're not gilded.

And so when we, this country has the expectation that you have all the opportunity in the world, most people end up feeling like, oh, my great life is about to start.

And meanwhile, while you're waiting waiting for your great life to start, you miss your life rather than accepting the fact that, you know, you can still work hard.

You might have some, there might be some great payoff there, but there's a beautiful life to be had just the same.

But I think there's some of that in Jay Kelly. Yeah.
You know, it's funny because they always say, tell your kids, you can do anything in the world. I'm like, you can't.
Right. I mean, that's a little

overreaching because then the whole time they'll be whatever they're doing, like, wait, I could do anything. And you're like, not really.

that's what i mean and and and you you end up feeling my dad he felt like about himself the whole time because he never hit the jackpot and that's a tough way you know death of a salesman is all about that there's an american kind of ideal that uh there they're if you don't make it then you have failed and by make it you know like you're the bigwig and in a free market

system there's whimsy to it like uh my friend knew someone who just was a nice young woman out of junior college or something got a job at Apple in 97, got shares, retired, millionaire.

You know, we're in a casino where people can pull the slot. And I'd say

the things that had to come together for just me to get on SNL that the previous season wasn't so good. I was there at that time.
My manager, Bernie Burlsting, knew Lauren Michaels.

I mean, so there's always whimsy to it and luck, but in the end of the day, most people are hanging out, whether it's George Cooney or you and me, you're with your wife watching this show, going for a run, whatever.

Most people just hang out, but it's very difficult. I think, especially right now, hot take social media for young people.
Everyone's a star. Everyone's making millions.

Everyone seems to be better looking than they are in the Mediterranean.

Everyone's on a yacht. And they're all curating their lives.
None of it's like, I'm like, how much of that shitty picture? Why not post that one? Because we look terrible.

And that's kind of how we felt that day. Wouldn't that, that makes for good content? That might be a real like shows the life that it's not always 10 out of 10 every second.

I think that would be great. Whatever platform is going to

take over,

I don't know, there's some Instagram corollary in there you could come up with. You're like, hello, sharks.

Everything you get, you give up something, and everything you give up, you get something. So if you're going to get all that fame, then you're sort of an exotic insect out in the world.

That's precisely what Noah is taking a look at. And, you know, I think part of him, too, was kind of disenchanted with movie making

after this movie he did, White Noise, came out, and he didn't feel like people understood it in the way maybe that he wanted.

And so he wanted to make a movie that was about how lovely movie making is and how lovely the experience is for the people who get to do it.

So part of it is really charmed, but there's an underbelly of,

I think, I've really missed my entire life.

And

there's this great line by his daughter

where she says, you know, why I know you didn't want to be there? Because you weren't there. And it's like, ooh.

And he goes, but all of this, everything that I've done, all these movies that I've made, all the ways in which I've transformed culture and entertainment, it must be worth something.

And she's like, but what if it isn't? You're like,

what if she's talking to that kid? Because they are just, just

those two. And he goes,

you know, it's probably, he's going, you know, I did all this for you. And she's like, no, you didn't.
That's exactly. That's exactly it.

And it's a, it's, I think it's a really, it's a, it's a beautiful.

It would take some of the pretense off if we got rid of the word acting and said, and the, you know, the best pretender goes to, he can pretend in front of a lens really good.

I've never seen a pretender like this.

But actor. Now, your character in the movie is the one who quite didn't make it, who's friends with George Miller.
Yeah, he was in play at acting school.

And they took acting so perfect. And he didn't make it.
That always happens.

I mean, our worlds are replete with them. It's just

an impossible business. And

so George's character runs into him at the memorial. And because George is feeling like

he's just on the verge of having that idea that he may have missed out on his life, and he was like, hey, man, you were one of my buddies back in the day. We should go have a beer.

The guy's like, oh, that would be really nice. Should I, you know, call your office or something? And he goes, no, no, let's go right now.
So they go and have a beer.

And George's character is kind of regaling him and like, oh, you were the actor we all looked up to or whatever. I could watch you do anything.

So he kind of peer-pressures them into doing some impromptu acting.

And so it's like, it's a

great, weird trick that no advice to pull off.

And

that's Noah Bomback. Yeah, Noah Bomback.
We didn't say that. That's Noah.
Oh, I didn't say that before.

Director-writer? Director, writer. I mean, just a fantastic collaborator.

It was a completely charmed experience for me to get a chance to do it and work with those guys. So I breezed in for four days and now I get to do,

you know,

we went to Venice. No, this is great.

Was Adam there? I think he was, right? He was. We had a great time in Venice and then we went to Telluride together.
So I feel it's all icing on the cake for me. Yeah.

So behind the scenes, just man to man, is Clooney,

what's that all about? Yeah.

No, I wanted to give Clooney a compliment in case he hears this, but yeah, he hasn't had one. Clooney is phenomenal.
He's almost exactly as you might imagine. He has the most brilliant stories.

He is incredibly generous, really gregarious.

I remember when we were in Venice,

the paparazzi follows you on boats. It's kind of nerve-wracking experience.
And so

Naomi and I were kind of hiding under the canopy from them. And George does the opposite.
He goes up and takes the wheel of the boat. And so he can get all the pictures.
He can't escape.

He's like Mickey Mouse out in the world.

Venice is my life. And he's pretty impressive, the number of ways that he's involved, not just in the career, but involved in our culture and our politics.
And

he's out there.

He's out there. He lives a very, very big life.
He did a nice thing early on and came to the premiere of either Black Sheep or Tommy Boy and talked to my mom for 10 minutes.

And my mom will always remember it. Yeah, and he was killing it then.
He's actually never really been not killing it for most people. From ER on, it's been up here.
So

even back then, he talks about his career with a level of humility, too, that is unusual for someone who's accomplished the kinds of things that he's accomplished.

But he still has that old memory of being a working actor, not having ER yet, trying to... get jobs, doing some shitty movies.
I mean, he's doing facts of life.

Facts of life. He and Laurie Byrne were on the stage at

the New York Film Festival talking about the fact that they had both been in Grizzly 2,

which wasn't really someone else just told us that. Yes, until like recently.
And it's like they die in the first scene, but they're the headliners now on

the case.

Oh, that's so cool. I love George Calooney and The Descendants, which is one of a great, great.
One of a movie, one of those movies that my wife and I will visit once in a while. Yeah.

Because it's so brilliant. And his scene at the end where he says goodbye to his wife in the hospital, that is masterclass.
I mean, that's as good as it gets. I agree.

I agree. He's a superb actor.
And he's, and there is a funny kind of thing that happens in the movie: there's a tribute to Jay Kelly.

And

you see the George Clooney movies.

Oh, the actual ones. That's funny.
Oh, funny. So it's kind of like a spoiler alert.

No, that's interesting. Okay.
Oh, no.

And it's supposed to be at a film festival. So when we took this to film festivals and watched the film festival crowd watching George

attribute, it's really, it's an exceptional and unique experience. And would you call it dramedy, comedy? What would you say? Yeah, dramedy sounds good.
Okay.

It looks like Joe always likes to bring in a little bit of

pathos. There's some edge to even his most lighthearted movies.
There's something uncomfortable, something, but George and Adam's relationship in particular is

really sweet and

it's executed so well. And there's just, it's just charming.

You know, David, last year,

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See, see how that works?

She integrated it into her mornings as a little personal growth ritual inspired me to do the same okay now it's part of my routine too just a few minutes a day and i feel sharper calmer more creative we needed to get you like honed down into that zone

i'm so glad you you just heard that like you've you heard me you felt you felt my i i hear what you're saying yeah exactly you listen that's my crime i'm a listener you hear but you don't listen you look but you don't see

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You know what I mean? Amy Poehler does a

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Oh, my goodness. No one says that.
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I don't remember eating it. Sorry with the roof.
I said just the roof.

Oh, one of those. Oh, yeah, I did a lot of pumpkin pie.

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I think, you know, we're in the same management company as Adam, and, you know, we know four or five managers, you know, so Adam would have a lot to draw from.

So I'll be interested to see which one he picks. Who he leans on.
He might be more like himself.

Yeah, and himself as well, you know, because he's kind of a mentor. I've got, like,

you know, and we've all had people in our lives. You can't do this alone.

And you can see in some of them raw ambition. In some of them, you can see like distraction.
In some of them, you can see like they're biding their time. But very few do you see like some mentorship.

And like they

see what you specifically,

David Spade, have to offer.

And they're able to promote that in a way that not only makes you feel good about it, but tells the story of you to people who want to hire you. And that's who he plays.

It's hard to find that's hard to find there's a great line in the movie where adam says he goes you're jay kelly and i'm jay kelly exactly you know it becomes like this and you know it's i'm sure you've done it yourself um

you know a young actor you saw in a play or you meet and you want to

say nice things or encouragement or and that's a skill set and an art really too so not look like you're shining a mom but actually specifically i always say specific compliments Absolutely.

And not condescending either. Like, oh, I'm an old sage or whatever.
It's really hard to, but it's important. I mean, I remember the people who

terrific actor Victor Garber, who I did

with in, do you know Victor?

I just remember him being on like Manix.

Yeah, so Victor, Victor was like a veteran when I was working with him first time. But the way that he was

supportive was, you know, unique. It was,

it's the kind of thing that you, you feel like, oh, okay, this might be a hard profession, but at least there's some people in it who I can align myself with.

Right.

And some people are too competitive. It's not always the case.
There's not everyone's out there to help you out. So

that's, it's mostly the competitive. They want you to go away, especially if you're any good.
They want you out of there. So it is good to get someone that actually feels like they give a shit.

It's unusual. For some reason, Soap Dish just popped in my mind that

it's a great movie. I mean, Kevin Klein, though, but there was some kind of competitive thing between them.
Soap, yeah.

I love that scene where he's on stage and he's doing, it's, but it's dinner theater, and he's doing Death of a Salesman, and somebody's eating, and he turns to him and goes, you're doing very well.

Oh, man.

What's the play you're doing? I want to talk about this because this fascinates me. First of all, Jay Kelly, November 14th in the theaters, December 5th, Netflix.

Okay, so then London, December 17th, High Noon, which I saw as a kid. Yeah.
And I remember it to this day. It really hit me hard.
I think I might have been alone and 10 years old, black and white.

You're making High Noon, the Gary Cooper movie, 1950s, 2, 3,

as a play in London. Okay, that's great.
Tell us a

great screenwriter, Eric Roth. He wrote Forrest Gump, recently did

Star is Born and has collaborated on a million things, probably been nominated for six Academy Awards. He's never written a play before, but he was really interested in this story.

He and I worked briefly together on

The Good Shepherd, it was called. It was a spy movie.

I just had a ready affection for him. He was like one of the guys that you're talking about, like a real mensch, like really wants to

support and encourage the creative process. He understands how insecure everybody is, and is just a really

expert writer. In any case,

high noon, it turns out, it was written by a guy who was blacklisted. With a timing, it's not necessarily correspondent, but what I think he saw coming was that in the face of a

physical threat, people and communities will capitulate. And that this sheriff, who's been taking care of this town for 15, 20 years now, and has just turned in his badge.

The bad guy is coming back to town on the high noon train. He's about to leave because he's just married a Quaker and she says, I don't want you to have anything to do with guns.
And the town is like,

nope, we'll be totally fine. Don't worry.

And he's like, wait, I can't leave.

I know what you guys were like before I got here. You're about to get screwed.
This guy is, you know, slaughtered. He is a badass, and he shouldn't have been released from jail.

I don't know what happened. The politicians up north released him, but so he goes around to try to get a posse together, and everybody's like,

I don't know. My shop is in really good shape.

I'd love to help you.

The apple dumpling gang. Exactly.
The apple dumpling gang. Tim Conway pops out of us.

Don nothing. One of my all-time favorites.

But so he wrote this for the stage. Yeah.
And it's a

I play the Gary Cooper part. And so

I got to figure out who my sheriff is right now. So that's what I'm going to.

I've been watching a lot of Westerns now. They're actually great to revisit right now.
There's one called The Oxbow Incident with Henry Fonda. Another one that blew my mind as a kid.

My Darling Clementine, another great, like the first Wyatt Earp story henry fonda again freaking incredible shane um yeah the man who shot liberty valance the man who shot liberty vanish and balance that's another phenomenal one um

so you're in on that you can sort of help figure out i'm gonna try to david we went and we've got some fantastic um

collaborators

the director thea sharick who is really um a brilliant director and a great designer named tim hadley and an actress named Denise Goff, who is just

otherworldly on stage. And so, yeah, we're going to give that a go in London.
Exciting. Hopefully,

I love theater in London.

I saw the ferryman out there, and I was just. Oh, that was a great production.
I saw that one as well.

Did you see Jerusalem there? No. Oh, it was another, it was a Mark Rylance one, and just sublime.
I'd be interested with the set design, you know, like a Western town. Well, that's the problem of it.

Exactly. So, you know, when you watch the movie, they cut from inside the saloon to then to the barbershop to then up to there.
Yeah.

Do that on the stage. So it's going to take some inventive.
Also, too, there's a gunfight, you know.

How exactly do you stage that in a way that is both, you know, dramatic enough, reveals something about what it means to be shooting at each other?

Yeah, you have to tell the audience there's real bullets and you're really shooting at each other. That's a great idea, David.
And one person put it on the playbill.

That's the kind of producing we need. That's that's outside the world.
You need fresh ideas.

There it is, guys. Real guns.
Real guns.

Think about it at lunch. Everybody signs a waiver.

Just say it's after the admission, we use real bullets. It's blank out.

You can decide to say you can leave if you want. You come to that.
You want to come to the good show or the bad one?

But Gary Cooper didn't have much dialogue, so you probably won't have a lot of dialogue in this. Dana, you have hit on two of the major challenges in trying to stage this is

he's known as a guy of few words

on stage that doesn't really translate.

Are you adding your precious monologues? Well, so what they've done is

they've given him like an internal monologue

where he

gets to speak to the audience, you know. Oh, he's thinking.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, you go like this. Here's the new one.
You walk into the horse. You go, check out this saloon.
That looks pretty cool.

Oh, look, they have a general store. They're like, Billy, you sure you want to add all this stuff? Hold on.
I got to write this down, David.

Check out the saloon.

A lot of good filler. Yeah, yeah.
You need filler. Here's my Gary Cooper.
This is your

only line in the first act.

I reckon I don't know where I'm going to be going.

Is that Obama? Oh, no, no, no.

I should have done Henry Fonda. If you have any problem, just do Henry Fonda.
Nobody knows what he talks like anymore. Oh, that's good.

You can use that voice the whole time. He could have done that.
That's dead on, man. That is dead on.
Nobody wants to listen to anyone but Jimmy Stewart from old-timey action. Oh, no.

I mean, when Henry Fonda, his voice, actually, in those Westerns in particular, that's the thing that gives him authenticity.

That's the thing that makes you feel like, oh, yeah, that guy seems like a Marshall.

I figure I better figure out what I want to do. You know, it's kind of a very distinct rhythm.

Ken, I don't like your.

I don't have that one yet, but I'm going to be working on it but you're going to be stoic and how how tall are you i'm six two okay so you're five i mean i've played five eight my whole life um but uh so you'll be six four with the cowboy boots

you know it's one of those things like like um

when you meet someone of a stature like myself who's running in at about 165, 5'8, 5'9.

You have to figure out what community would want him to run the show with respect to law enforcement. So he's got a couple of chances.
He's got to be really good at talking.

He doesn't mind negotiating uncomfortable situations. And it helps that this character is a vet.
He fought in the Civil War.

So he must have, and there's a couple of guys that I found online that were small guys who were, you know,

awarded. a lot of medals and stuff because they just had a screw loose and they didn't mind going into a dangerous situation.
Bonnie Murphy. The third is you got to be really good with guns.

So that's those are the ones that I'm going to lean on primarily: is that he doesn't mind getting into weird situations and he's really good with guns. Maybe Kevin Hart could play the other guy.

By the way, if I had him as Frank Miller, people would say, Well, that makes a perfect parent.

You know, Kevin Hart's, he's pretty stocky there. He uh, yeah,

just think about De Niro. De Niro, he plays the power guys, but you know, played the power guys because they got a screw loose.
So

there's something unpredictable about them. And at the, you know, if you're on the short side of it, what's going to happen is he's going to rip your throat out.
Something, you know.

Pesci and goodfellas. Yeah, precisely.
Pesci and good fellas. Exactly.
So you got to figure out the good guy version of that.

That's interesting. That's interesting.
I might come to London to see it.

That sounds cool. And Billy, I have to say very nice to meet you.
And thank you. I know we're busting your balls, but it's great to have you on here.
Right back at you, David. I appreciate it.

A lot of fun.

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Fly on the Wall is presented by Odyssey, an executive produced by Danny Carvey and David Spade, Heather Santoro and Greg Holtzman, Maddie Sprung-Kaiser, and Leah Reese Dennis of Odyssey.

Our senior producer is Greg Holtzman, and the show is produced and edited by Phil Sweet Tech. Booking by Cultivated Entertainment.

Special thanks to Patrick Fogarty, Evan Cox, Maura Curran, Melissa Wester, Hilary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Colin Gaynor, Sean Cherry, Kurt Courtney, and Lauren Vieira.

Reach out with us any questions to be asked and answered on the show. You can email us at flyonthewall at odyssey.com.
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