Panenka-triggered goalkeepers & empty-net warm-up anxieties: The listeners' loves & hates

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He's round the goal, Keeper.

He's done it.

Absolutely incredible.

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was eye without a shadow of a doubt giving him lip.

Oh, I say!

It's amazing!

He does it tame and tame and tame again.

Break up the music!

Charge a glass!

This nation is going to dance all night long!

Carabao Cup curiosities, Peter Crouch's streets won't forget five-aside team, Netflix's terrible football speak double bluff, post-worldy teammate reactions, the instinctive anti-Panenka moral code of the goalkeepers union, the telling eye movements of managers in post-match interviews, the anxiety of shooting into an empty goal in a warm-up, the foul-or-dive dichotomy, and a never-before-aired grievance about penalty shootout scorelines.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés and your Mezza Harlan Dicks.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry, and this is the listener's Mezza Haaland Dicks for August, your niche footballing fascinations and irritations.

Joining me to go through them, a bumper cast, actually, from NYC.

It's Charlie Eccleshare.

How you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Alongside you, David Walker.

How are you?

I'm very good.

And completing a quartet on the panel today, it's his 89th cliches cap, putting him just behind Michael Owen.

In England terms, it's Nick Miller.

How are you doing?

I'm very well.

Good to have you.

A great lineup of things that titillate and irritate our listeners about football today, but we've got some matters to take care of beforehand.

A reminder that Clichase is going live in 2025.

You can join us in Brighton, Cardiff, London, Birmingham, Dublin, and Manchester.

Leeds and Glasgow sold out in October.

Dublin pub plans are afoot, Dave.

We need to prove that we can do it on an early autumnal Friday night in Glasnevin.

We definitely can.

Need to get ahead of the property.

We've got a couple of options, haven't we, I think?

Because we're not quite in the city centre, but there does look like there's some really good little off-the-beaten track pubs near doing the show.

If everyone could have just seen Dave's reaction when I just simply sent him the fascia of a pub.

Oh, that's all I sent him.

And he went, oh, that's great.

That's going to be pretty amazing.

Mouth watering.

If your mouth is watering, go to tickets.football cliches.com and join us in your city of choice.

Right, let's do a little adjudication panel because it's a midweek of football and we need to address these things.

A couple of Carabao Cup curiosities to take care of first.

Leads were dumped out, Charlie, by Shefford Wednesday on penalties.

And on the Sky Sports live blog during the shootout, Sean Longstaff had his penalty saved by Ethan Horvath to seal Leeds' exit.

And the Sky Sports live blog said that Sean Longstaff forces a save from Ethan Horvath.

And Warm Training 1908 says, can you force a save from a penalty?

I've never even considered this before.

Yeah, I mean, technically, yes, but...

It goes against, you know, forcing a save does suggest you've had to work quite hard to do that.

Whereas having a ball sort of plonk down for you suggests it's not, hasn't taken that much effort.

I'm more worried about the scenario here, Dave.

I mean, every penalty should force a save from a goalkeeper, right?

In theory, yeah.

But Nick, why do we even use the phrase generally anyway, forcing a save?

Like, so it calls a goalkeeper into action, right?

Semi-unexpectedly?

Is that where the phrase is coming from?

I think that's probably the crucial element to it.

Just amused by the idea of a commentator say, if you miss a penalty or hit the bar or something, a commentator say, oh, you've got to make the keeper work from there.

Got it to target.

Just a really subtly incorrect way of looking at things.

How about this though?

Nick Redding played AFC Wimbledon in the carabout on Tuesday night.

At half-time, Redding tweeted, we go into the break level thanks to a Liam Fraser screamer.

The problem was that Redding scored first.

So you can't have thanks too if you scored first and then get pegged back, can you?

Again, it's, I suppose it's like technically true, but yes, nonetheless, quite ludicrous.

Because all you're doing there is you're emphasizing the fact that you've thrown the lead away.

Don't do that.

Yeah.

I mean, incredible dressing up of the scenario, Charlie.

We go into the great level amid a Liam Fraser scream.

But yeah, I mean, the Carabao Cup in midweek is the source of much chaos, but it's also the source of some absolute bottom-of-the-barrel content as well.

The Sun have simulated the third-round draw before it has taken place using a supercomputer.

You don't need a supercomputer.

What do you need a supercomputer for?

To draw various teams against each other?

Chat GP Graham Kelly.

Complete waste of time.

I don't want to explore the story any more than that.

But yeah,

apart from the fact that they've sort of, yeah, they've highlighted some of the ties, Charlie, and said, whoa, won't that be good?

Well, yeah, maybe.

What's the point?

You could do that yourself with some very primitive

technology that you could Google quite quickly, I imagine.

Yeah, I mean, it's not exactly like the World Cup group stage, is it?

Third round of the carabouts.

There's no seedings, I don't think.

There is seedings, maybe there is.

I don't know.

Well, haven't they, aren't they now localised, partly localised?

Are they?

And I don't think you'd get like the non-European.

I don't think you'd get a European team against a European team, maybe.

A team in Europe.

I mean, Charlie ridings of the supercomputers rescue here, Nick.

But I don't think it would be like massively complex to model that yourself.

If you have, you know, a dab hand XL or something.

No, I've actually started to think you do need a supercomputer for this.

But the whole makes the whole exercise even more futile, actually nick now when i think about it is it just i mean not acceptable in any way for me but but but is it just international tournaments acceptance water could simulate the draws of i would say so champions league is a bit particularly now it's not in the kind of the groups champions league is just a bit too yeah i wouldn't simulate every current format you know definitely not but what's the purpose of it i mean pure content that's it yeah but there's not

quite for the draw but i get the like this is the hardest draw that team x could get in a group or something like that has some value but just simulating a draw is

totally random and pointless.

I don't think it is totally random.

I think they've completely made this up without the use of a supercomputer because they've drawn Arsenal against Wrexham.

So they can talk about that being a rematch of the famous Mickey Thomas game.

And it's Wrexham, so that will get clicks and whatever.

And they've put Chelsea at Millwall.

at the den.

It is nonsense.

So that's where we're heading, isn't it?

We'll do fake draws and then do all the fake build-up pieces around it as well.

So we'll give you a few wrecks and retrospectives based on a fake draw.

Yeah.

Click fake supercomputer.

Disgraceful.

Let's move on.

But how about this?

All the way from Tasmania.

Nick.

This came from Grau Mirelez.

Great name.

And a headline.

Tasmanian Premier Jeremy Rockcliffe will need to appoint a new health minister before Parliament resumes following Jackie Petruzma's resignation from her ministerial roles due to a serious hamstring injury.

Wow, sorry.

Wow.

I've never heard of anything like this happening in life.

How serious does a hamstring injury have to be to stop you from doing things other than running?

Grade three.

Well,

yeah, you're bang right, Charlie, because Jackie Petrusma herself has confirmed that she's completely torn one of her hamstrings.

Off the bone.

Yeah, may well be off the bone.

No details of the incident.

It's just that's what's happened.

So, I mean, it sounds like she's going to be on crutches for a few weeks and a lengthy spell in rehab.

So you probably will step away from your duties.

But wow, the handsome isn't it?

Were there like Tasmanian sort of experts, you know, like those physios like we get on Twitter who will diagnose footballers with like frame-by-frame pictures and being like, that looks to me like a grade two tear.

Those tassy physios really coming to their own.

I mean, the big question is, how's she going to adapt her game when she does return?

to the ministerial benches.

She's not going to be the same politician, is she?

Another Michael Owen comparison.

Exactly, yeah.

It sounds like Michael Owen level to me.

And she's the health minister, too.

The irony of it all.

It's just a mad headline.

A serious hamstring injury.

Hamstrings should never just be just chucked in into general life and people should know what they are.

Next up, Dave, here's some run-of-the-mill social content from TNT Sports with a sort of oddly dour Peter Crouch.

Peter, build your streets won't forget five-aside team.

Right, so Peter Crouch has been tasked with his streets won't forget five-aside team.

What sort of obscure Barclaysman Barclaysman legends is he going to put into this?

Goalkeeper, Peter Schmeichel, five-aside goal.

Not many goals going in there.

I'm going to have one defender,

Paolo Maldini,

one of the greatest defenders we've ever seen.

In midfield, I'm going to go for Ronaldinho and Zidane speaks for itself, really.

And then Brazilian Ronaldo up front.

Oh, my God.

I mean, Dave, the headline here is that Streets Won't Forget has lost all meaning now.

As soon as big corporations have got hold of it, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Streets Won't Forget.

I mean, fucking waste of time.

For fuck's sake.

Where's his energy as well?

Why is he not into this?

It's that kind of combination of corporisation of this thing and explaining to someone who doesn't know what it means, who clearly wants to be anywhere else.

Charlie.

I've been there, like,

you know, where you ask someone a question, they clearly are answering a different question to the one you've asked.

And you've got this very awkward split-second decision of like, do I stop him and tell him that's not the question I've asked?

Because if I don't do it now, I can't do it because I can't get halfway through.

You've only got five minutes with Peter.

Exactly.

They've obviously been like, fuck, he's completely misunderstood the question, but he's in now.

And I guess after Schmeichel, you might be like, ah, not massively Street Smith forget.

Let's see which took.

Go on.

Do Limboy Primus and then we'll see you get it.

Schmeichel is so not Street Smith forget.

It's just unbelievable.

As a side note, Dave, do you think there's a sort of new generation of people that only know Paolo Maldini for being chosen the single defender in somebody's five-aside team?

Like, just he is the man.

Yeah, yeah, no.

That's what he exists for now, I think.

I mean, even

probably like Ronaldo.

You're getting into that window, aren't you?

A long time since he was in his pomp.

Now, really interesting item.

Next, lots of people sent this in.

It's from Netflix drama Hostage, starring Saran Jones as the Prime Minister.

And it really evolves a couple of things that we've been talking about a lot in recent pods.

Eight months ago, the Prime Minister won office with a promise to fix our NHS and social care system by gutting the military to pay for it.

Now, thanks to the Right Honourable Lady, you can fit the entire British Army into Wembley Stadium

and still have room for the away fans of her beloved old MFC.

Now, Charlie, it would be really easy for us to say, ah, terrible script writing, They don't know Ball.

Why can't they get someone like us in to fix it?

But obviously the setting is the House of Commons.

So maybe they are sort of thinking, well, we've got to get a politician who doesn't really know Ball either.

So then the two things collide and you end up with this.

I think that's pretty.

That is a pretty accurate, you know, in the set would have been like, and it's been an own goal from the Prime Minister.

It's that kind of level.

Yeah, that works.

I mean, there are two obviously glaring elements here, Nick.

First up, oldham FC.

so I mean I mean I mean that's borderline allowable I think but that does feel like something that a politician would say and get slightly wrong yeah yeah yeah some someone who's has asked an aide about football or something about footy so saran jones' character is the mp for oldham in this drama as well so that's hence the uh hence the reference but then dave sort of calling the oldham fans the away fans at what is famously a neutral venue unless of course spurs are back there or somebody yeah mid-stadium rebuild and they're playing the british army Army, I think, in this scenario.

Famous fixture.

Tough place to go.

If this was politics clichés, one of my constant irritations would be that people don't get the House of Commons right in any kind of dramas.

That looks not, I mean, it just looks nothing like the House of Commons.

The lighting right there.

And it should be such an easy thing to get right as well, because it's a kind of, we see it so often, it looks like quite an easy thing to recreate.

I just don't, I don't understand why people get it so wrong.

Yeah, you could 3D model it.

It'd be pretty easy, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

But yeah, I just don't know.

So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt here, basically, and that's quite generous, but I like this theory.

Finally, for the adjudication panel, this came from Rory Egan Thomas.

Davy says, I'm sitting at Gatwick on my way home, and whilst looking at the flight radar app, I noticed a charter airline aircraft with the registration G-Wayer.

Okay.

The airline in question is a group I hadn't heard of before called Ascend Aviation.

They sound like they're an airline from a Netflix drama as well.

Anyway, they're operating charter flights for various tour operators during the busy summer season.

Now, it could be coincidence, but on further inspection, it appears there might be other footballers' names and initials in their fleet registrations.

For reference, the G is country of registration, which is in this case, United Kingdom.

So that's what the G means.

Okay.

So they've got G-Wea.

Yep.

And they've also got G-Hoddle, H-O-D-L.

Okay.

G-Mullah.

Yep.

M-U-L-R.

Ginola.

What's going on?

Really tenuous one here, Nick.

G Ullit.

That's good.

That's really good.

But then there are two mystery ones.

The last two in the fleet, Charlie, which are G.

Crooks and G.

Lesso.

So G.

C.

R.

E.

G.

Crooks.

It is.

It's Graham Lessau

and Garth Crookes.

Crooks.

Well, how have they squeezed into the equation?

A mad formation on the plane.

I don't know.

Maybe the company is sort of based in Guernsey.

Or is it Lasseaux Jersey, isn't it?

Yeah, Lasseau's Jersey.

So, yes, maybe that's it.

A bit of a Spurs connection as well there.

Three Spurs players.

Oh, of course.

Janola Hoddle Crooks.

Hulitt Weyer is Milan.

Chelsea.

And Chelsea.

Yeah, and Gerdmuller's just really good.

So maybe that's what it is.

Or the Luxembourg tennis player Gilles Milan.

Oh, maybe it is that.

Maybe it is.

I've looked into this further.

They do ferry around Premier League teams for sort of away games.

They've taken Palace up to Newcastle, for example, Dave.

So that might be the football connection.

If you were to one day find yourself in charge of a charter airline service, I think this is the sort of thing you'd do.

I think I probably would.

You would, wouldn't you?

Yeah, I would.

So there you go.

Footballers' names in plane registrations.

Excellent stuff.

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And indeed, this came from Jacob McMaster from Down Under.

He says, I was watching the Australia Cup quarter-final between Avondale FC and Brisbane City on Paramount Plus.

In the 90th minute, Kian Cuba, what a lovely name that was, by the way, scored the sixth goal in a 6-2 win for Avondale with a lovely lob over the Brisbane City keeper.

But it was what the commentator said following the goal that really caught me off guard.

Fully deserves that goal.

It's a wonderful finish.

Great ball over the top from Trotchesky.

Really well well weighted.

Picked out the run perfectly.

The run was timed perfectly.

The finish was executed brilliantly.

Well, he lifted it like an embargo over the goalkeeper there.

That, flat out, Nick, is the maddest simile I've ever heard deployed in a football context.

Only makes sense to journalists and politicians dealing with like arms embargoes and so on.

With trade embargoes, it's quite timely.

Yeah, I suppose, but I mean,

is that the go-to?

Are they even famously lifted?

It's definitely not.

Yeah, embargoes, if anything, the key thing about embargoes, David, that they're applied, not lifted.

That's the headline.

They just

lapse, I suppose, do they?

Yeah.

I mean,

like...

Yeah, you can lift it.

You're like trading embargoes.

You can lift embargoes.

Yeah, I think it's

the beauty of the moment.

It's just absolutely mad.

I think we can all agree on that.

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We'll be right back after the break with the listeners' Mezza Haaland dicks for August.

See you in a bit.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful.

Welcome back to Football Cliches.

We're taking care of the adjudication panel.

Now it's time for the main event, the listeners Mezza Harland Dicks for August.

Your footballing fascinations and irritations.

We kick things off with this from Lev Harris.

Hello chaps.

My fascination is when a player scores a quote-unquote worldie and their teammate reacts by putting their hands on their head in shock and looks back to the bench whilst mouthing the word wow.

The action itself is a close cousin to the classic head-in-hands moment, although that action requires the hands to be fully on top of the head with fingers interlaced whereas the worldie reaction is more tips of the fingers on the temple.

Even though the reaction feels a bit pantomime, I like how in this moment the teammate is playing the part of every fan and stadium reacting in sheer disbelief as to what they've just witnessed.

Charlie, what really tipped this over edge for the inclusion was the micro-analysis of the finger placement.

I thought that was pure clichés.

I really enjoyed that aspect of it.

Yeah, very good.

Yeah, these are a nice

secondary thing after a great goal that you can then, you know, the reaction of the team.

Like I remember Lamella scoring that Robona at the Emirates for Spurs and Regilon just goes mad and it's like, you know, it's a nice additional bit of content.

Nick, Nick, I always worry that these, you know, especially in the social media age, that these reactions are a little bit confected.

But then the other half of my brain likes to think that these are genuine football reactions to seeing a teammate do something that, you know, they might have done on the training ground a few times, but you've never seen them in the game.

So they're natural, right?

They're...

They're for real.

I think so.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm sure I've seen people do these kind of reactions to just a bit of skill, just like a not meg or something.

Yeah.

Which does, which does feel a, you know, that feels a bit much.

But yeah, they do feel fairly genuine.

They are quite pure, I think.

I think there are lots of autopilot celebrations nowadays.

The knee slide is ubiquitous and whatever.

But it's so in the moment that I think it's quite hard to sort of plan it, really.

I think it is genuine.

I think there was a good one last season.

I think it was the second free kick that Rice scored against Real Madrid.

Odegaard was standing just off to the side and he did that.

He was like hands to head, like looking around.

He didn't even run away initially.

He was like stood still, like, couldn't believe what had happened.

That's an interesting case study, then, because that was an incredible free kick, Charlie, and sort of rightly met by a teammate whose opinion you probably respect in these situations as well, you know, with complete disbelief.

So, what is, what's the base level for a worldie, and I use that phrase, you know, carefully, in this situation to elicit a hands-on head reaction from a teammate.

It's not just about the quality of the goal.

I do think that has that context is all important.

So, like in that instance, Declan Rice, who'd who'd barely taken a free kick before for Arsenal, let alone scored one, suddenly scores two in seven minutes against Real Madrid.

And that second one, if it is the second one you're talking about, Dave, right?

That second one was even better.

I think it was.

He was definitely one of them.

Yeah, but yeah,

either way, it's such a mad, like, what is happening kind of reaction.

You know, I think if that's David Beckham scoring that, you're not getting Roberto Carlos doing that probably in quite the same way.

So there is that element of surprise.

De Lamella one, it's kind of like a, that was his go-to trick, and he's only gone gone and done it in the North London Derby.

Holy shit.

So I think

like it needs to be spectacular and also a bit of a sort of backstory to it as well.

Dave, do you think QPR would do it at 7-1 down?

I don't think so.

No, perhaps not.

No.

There is, I do, another example that comes to mind, it's not exactly hand-on-heads, but this sort of expression on your face, just like complete disbelief.

I can't believe that I'm the one that's just done this and teammates like as well being happy for him was ollie watkins against netherlands in the euro semi-finals oh wow okay like watkins scores that and there's a brilliant moment where he's just sort of looking he's running to the bench and he's just sort of looking around and his mouth is wide open his eyes are ablaze and he just doesn't know what to do and then all the subs kind of run over and there's this real sort of collective sort of disbelief that this has just happened.

Yeah, I mean, that's a rare one, a sort of self-disbelief, Nick.

You don't get that very often.

It'd be great to see a player sort of put their own hands on their heads and go, well, I just don't believe I've just done that.

That would be great.

But yeah, that would have to be something flukey, maybe?

You'd have to back yourself in a genuine football scenario, wouldn't you?

You could use that in one of those scenarios where, like, in a, did you actually mean that kind of scenario?

Van Baston, maybe?

Yeah, maybe, something like that.

Or, like, you know, someone, some, you've got people saying, no, that was definitely a cross, but and then you're going, no, no, no, no, I meant it.

Look at my reaction.

Um, I think the peak level of disbelief for

seeing a goal be scored in your favor was Bobby Robson when he was managing Barcelona and Ronaldo scored that goal against Coppostella which

in the sands of time has become slightly slightly overrated in a weird way like it's obviously still incredible but it's also what the fuck are Compostella doing but

Bobby Robson just getting up out of his bench with his head in his hands as if he's just witnessed a relative fall off a cliff or something it's like

this is awful it's not believe it oh I don't know it's there's also like a proud there's sort of like a proud uncle kind of vibe that's quite sweet to it and again the context there is is so important because he's emerging as this superstar before our eyes and that's kind of like a

wow like what's he gonna do next how's he doing this and there's i think there's possibly an element of that of like robson kind of going look i've been talking about how good this kid is for for ages and now he's kind of you know he keeps doing this kind of thing even he's still astounding me yeah yeah in that you know it's hard you'd be hard pressed to doubt any sincerity from bobby robson at his peak so uh maybe that's the clincher with self-disbelief i think it's more hand over the mouth.

Like, you know, I can, I can, there are a few examples I can sort of vaguely picture.

And they're like, On Reed, did Henri do one?

You know, where it's a bit knowing, but it's sort of like, it's like, oh my god, what have I just done?

I can picture that.

Yeah.

I'm trying to imagine.

Charlie.

There's the Dennis Burkham one where he covers his mouth.

Yeah, the Burkhamp one.

And actually, so that was, that celebration was repeated the other day.

I put to Josh Robinson the missing who scored for six Premier League clubs question that he'd given to us and there was a missing answer.

Put that to him and after about an hour of sat next to him watching the tennis, after about an hour he got it and did that celebration after.

It was a great question.

I just know you're focusing on the job.

I was.

He literally, he was, he said, he was like, I'm not here.

I'm still not present.

I would just look over and he'd have a different player.

Premier League player on Wikipedia page checking as well.

I'd be like, fuck, only five.

It was amazing.

Jesus Christ.

And the missing player was?

Andros Townsend.

Wow, there you you go.

Hope nobody from the Wall Street Journal is listening right now.

Right.

Great start from Lev Harris.

Second fascination of football comes from Robert Collins.

Hey guys, my MHD fascination is goalkeepers who faced with a player attempting a panenka against them during a shootout, give them a full beam roar of disapproval.

The suggestion being the penalty taker has broken some kind of unwritten moral code by doing so.

Just last night we got to enjoy Casper Schmeichel reprimanding reprimanding Kyra Almaty's Valerie Grummyko from his high horse as his Panenka attempt hits the bar, only for Schmeichel to concede another Panenka two attempts later.

Glorious.

Yes, I witnessed this live as well, Nick, and it dawned on me at the time that Caspar Schmeichel is the absolute archetype for objecting to being panenkered against, basically.

Where does this come from?

It must be that panenkas at one point were considered like a scoundrel's trick.

And now, despite them being mainstream, that sort of pattern of behavior has persisted.

Yeah, I mean, Caspar Smichel's sort of like a heritage proper football man, isn't he?

But yeah, this came into being in the

72 or 76.

Well, in the 90s, 70s anyway.

It seemed to be dormant for a long time and then kind of reappear in the 90s.

Remember Dwight York scoring one, and it's always that kind of, well, you know, if you score it, then it's it's cheeky and uh disrespectful.

But if you if you miss it, then you look like a complete tit.

So maybe there's another as well.

Well, let's deal with the crux of this matter then, Dave.

Is it disrespectful?

Why should it even be perceived as disrespectful by the goalkeepers union, who, as we know, have their own little sort of moral code?

Yeah, and especially nowadays when there's all manner of different novel penalty techniques, the no-look penalty, that's disrespectful.

You're not even looking at the goalkeeper.

Well, that's

disrespectful.

That one where the penalty taker doesn't take a step, he steps back and just kicks it before the goalkeeper's ready.

and they go that's I argue that's disrespectful because you you're not you're not sort of allowing the goalkeeper to prepare themselves.

You're absolutely right.

The old Mickey Quinn penalty where he used to walk back really slowly then turn around really quickly and then run.

You can't do that.

That's that's that's borderline unsportsmanlike Charlie actually you know I think about it.

So there are at least three types of penalties more disrespectful than the panenka in theory.

I think though the goalkeepers union might or some members might suggest that Kaspaschmichael is not necessarily representative of their views.

I mean he he I've mentioned this before but I've never seen a goalkeeper more likely to complain after pretty much every goal he concedes.

There'll be something, like, and it's, and a penalty.

He'll always complain about, like, the run-up wasn't right or something in that very wide-eyed, going to the ref kind of way.

I think most people just kind of accept that.

That's the sort of behavior you get from being the offspring of a Streets Won't Forget football approach.

Exactly.

Streets Won't Forget his complaints to the ref.

But you definitely still see this, Dave.

And I feel like it's completely baseless.

Like, if you challenged a goalkeeper to explain it, I don't think they would be able to.

I don't think they would say something like, you know, it's not the done thing.

You don't like to see that in football.

So I think it is purely learned behavior.

I think it's just in their DNA still.

But surely it's going to get to the point where, because Panenkas are about as mainstream as they could possibly get now.

Because if they became any more common, then

people would be missing them more because goalkeepers would be more wise to it.

So we're at peak Panenka, I think.

So goalkeepers are just going to have to get used to it.

Like, it's not that offensive.

Yeah, I don't think it is.

I mean, it's still not that common.

Like, the sort of really slow wait for the goalkeeper to move.

Maybe, maybe you're not even looking at the ball, maybe you're just looking at the goalkeeper penalty.

Like, that is becoming more and more common.

It's more of an accepted, trusted technique.

So, penenkas are still a bit novel, but what is becoming slightly more common in shootouts in tournaments are goalkeepers taking penalties as part of the first five.

Yeah.

When are we going to get a goalkeeper who does a penenka to another keeper?

X2.

That's what's like that.

That would would be amazing.

Oh my God, that would be a real schism in the goalkeepers' union that would cause.

Because they always blast them, don't they?

They always just absolutely hammer the ball.

At some point, surely someone's going to go, you know what?

I'm just going to go for it.

There must have been a goalkeeper Penenga.

Oh, wow.

Need to find out.

Brilliant.

Thank you, Robert Collins.

Right, our final fascination for this month comes from Matt from Birmingham.

My football fascination is the direction the managers are looking in the very split second before a post-match interview begins.

Now, for me, there's three options.

The first of which, which in my view is the most disrespectful, is when managers are looking right

as if they're going looking further down the tunnel for something that is just more interesting than the interview they're about to do.

I don't like it.

The second one is when they're looking directly at the interviewer once it begins.

And for me, I don't mind that.

I think that's okay.

Although, I think in some circumstances it can be a little bit intimidating,

sort of depending on the mood of the game, really.

The third one, which I think is the correct way, is when managers are looking just slightly downwards towards the floor, and then just as the interviewer starts to speak, their head just pops up at the very last second.

For me, I think that feels a little bit about

right for me.

But I'd be glad of your thoughts on that one.

Right, Charlie, obviously, I love the granular analysis that's gone into it, but I love how he's arrived at the most acceptable place for a manager to be looking just before he's asked the first question in a post-match interview madness yeah I really like I mean I'm just very much picturing Ange who I know always like didn't give loads of eye contact with interviews but that's so him to be looking at and then the look up just at the moment of it starting the ange the ange thing so notable that um my girlfriend commented on it at one point last season i think which she wouldn't normally take interest in football but she was sitting there watching it and just sort of glanced up and she was why is he looking at the floor it's so rude

Oh, it's just Anne.

It's just who he is, mate.

I mean, has a manager ever had the first second of their post-match interviews and analyzed more than Anne's Poster Coglu, Nick?

And to what extent do you think that looking at the floor is rude?

There's a bit of soul-searching about it, right?

I mean, it's like looking for answers on the floor.

Almost like an actor bring themselves into the scene as they look, they focus on something on the floor, look up, and then they're in the scene kind of thing.

Yeah.

But it is a little bit like a very mild, like naughty schoolboy being questioned about something.

And it's like, don't look at the floor.

Don't look at the floor.

Look at me.

Look at me.

As the

interviewer then sort of grills them.

Dave, Nick's kind of made me realise that this probably is quite just procedural.

Like it's like, and now we're on air.

So it's like that first.

sort of utterance of their name by the interviewer is actually the the realization they are now rolling so maybe they actually have to look up maybe there's a really boring explanation for this yeah and we only see the shot of the manager but behind the camera there's probably lots going on It's not like sometimes it might just be like two people in two people plus a cameraman in a room, but quite often they might be in the tunnel and there might be other people waiting, and there's like players might be walking past in the background.

It's sort of, there is quite a lot of distractions.

They're flying past the camera.

But like for the interviewer, I've done a couple of post-match interviews like years ago.

like just literally when there was no one else to do it and like you i i think i did claw puel in an fa cup tie once at peter at peterborough um And you sort of don't, but I didn't anyway.

I don't really want them to be like staring into my soul for the whole thing.

Fair enough.

I'm intrigued by the first option that Matt has given here, Charlie, the looking down the tunnel

option, which is basically like, I can understand this because it's footballing body language.

You're essentially referencing the place where the action has happened.

And you'll nod towards it as the interview goes on.

It's a cousin of the thumb over the shoulder scenario that reporters love to do.

So something's going to happen there.

So

there's definitely some sort of innate body language going on there.

Maybe, yeah.

So it

helps them remember what happened by looking at the spot where it did.

On that note, Charlie, someone sent me your Instagram story from the other day when you were on CBS previewing the US Open and you had Flushing Meadows behind you.

And I thought, at what point did Charlie thumb towards the stadium?

Please tell me you did it.

I'm sure, I'm almost certain I did.

I mean, I've been spotted doing that at other sports and venus and i'm not sure the extent to which i'm doing it knowingly or it's just complete muscle memory or like this instinct takes over you're prolific thumbsman yeah yeah yeah it's good to know good to know that you're on script anyway but i don't know i mean the looking the interviewer straight in the eyes option nick is that passive aggressive again i do think of ange And if Ange is looking at you, you've done something wrong, right?

A bit too intense, really.

If you're staring at the interviewer from even before they're they start talking that just that does feel quite intense and a little bit sort of alpha i suppose yeah i suppose like you know i'm in charge here son you you you with your silly little microphone imagine pep just staring you out like from half a meter away like yeah he does he does a sort of thing where he's almost he's kind of half turned away and he's almost looking at you like out the side of his eye like he's kind of like sideways look yeah yeah yeah a little bit obviously like he would rather be absolutely anywhere else other than doing this but there is a sort of i don't know slight side-eye element to his i know there are some managers been told that before will be like come on come on come on let's like let's get this done sort of thing and then you know so that's the context in which you're then going into an interview with someone who clearly is like come on i just want to get this over with um such is the lack of eye contact in various football interviews of any kinds pre-match or post-match Charlie.

I often find myself just waiting for them to lock eyes.

They think, are you actually going to to look at the interview at any stage?

Like, are you actually going to address the idea that you're talking to another human being rather than just you know reeling off your sort of post-match sentiments and just getting away from things?

I'm always quite comforted when they finally do acknowledge them with their eyes.

Okay, that's it.

A connection has been made.

They are vaguely present for this.

Yeah, it's good to hear.

Um, yeah, Matt, enjoyed that one.

Thank you.

Right, we'll take a short break.

We'll be back very shortly with the listeners' irritations.

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Welcome back to Football Cliches, a reminder of Dreamland, the premium football clichés experience.

For just $5.99 a month, you can sign up for ad-free listening of all of our episodes plus two episodes a month of dreamland our exclusive new show other perks as well episode six of dreamland is out this week as well so sign up in time for that dreamland football clichés dot com right we've heard your fascinations for this month it's time for irritations always the fun bit the first one comes from listener Michael Cox.

Hi, Adam.

My football dislike is shooting into an open goal in a pre-match warm-up situation.

So what I mean by that is everyone's ready to go.

You say, let's go and have a warm-up.

You dribble the ball into the pitch.

There's no goalkeeper there.

You feel obliged to shoot for goal.

And of course, people are watching you.

But there's no good option in this situation.

You can't go for the corner because there's a danger you'll miss an open goal, look like an idiot, and have to run after the ball.

That's really embarrassing.

But if you just go for like a lofted shot down the middle, one it looks really visually bad and two, it kind of looks like you've bottled it.

And weirdly, i find this quite a pressurized situation i hope you know what i mean charlie the flawless logic of this the incisiveness of its you know um observation has grown on me but i was so distracted in its early stages by what feels like michael cox doing an impression of somebody doing a listener's mhd

hi adam

but um

yeah i can see that but i i think he's definitely onto something definitely and i i i end up doing yeah because you you you kind of have to look quite casual doing it.

Because obviously, if you like leather the ball, it's like,

what are you doing?

You can't run

an empty goal.

Yeah.

And if you just don't have...

Not having a keeper there means it's very hard to have any motivation to do that.

So I do end up doing a kind of like quite casual looking rolled effort, which is essentially pointless.

Yeah, you're in danger of like looking a bit like Michael Owen doing the volleys at that happiness goalkeeper.

You know, just smashing it in from six yards and wheeling away when there's no keeper there in the warm-up.

The thing I find quite stressful about this is the level of power you have to put into it.

Because I only play five-aside, and then the five-side court I play at, the wall is immediately behind the goal.

If you hit it with enough force,

it'll hit the wall and come back out again, can hopefully come back straight to you.

But if you don't hit it with enough force, it will just stay in the goal.

And with those five-aside goals, they're kind of quite awkward to get the ball out of sometimes because of the height of the crossbar.

And then if you've got, as in my regular five-aside game we we often have a few kind of ringers to make up the numbers people you've never met before you obviously don't want to make a tit of yourself in front of them so you're left with quite a delicate balance to strike there you have to hit it with enough power for the ball to bounce out of you and you're not left with the awkward moment of trying to get the ball out of the goal but if you if you go if you go for if you go for too much power then obviously you you risk missing it and making yourself look like a complete idiot.

I take it from this, Nick, that you often turn up five, ten minutes early and you're the first one there.

with the ball.

Actually, I don't know what that is.

Which is a little silly, by the way.

Just to be clear, in a power league pitch with a goal to yourself is the best bit.

Do not have any illusions about this.

I'm notorious for being like

three or four minutes late, not like massively late, but enough to be irritating.

So, yeah.

What do you do, Adam, then, in that scenario when you're on the pitch on your own?

Okay, so yeah,

Nick has perfectly outlined the dilemma I face quite a lot, which is factoring in all the things that Michael Cox has talked about here.

I don't go for power.

I don't go for placement.

What I try and do is the crossbar challenge.

So I'll go through the gates, dribble a few steps forward, and then from around about the halfway line, try and ping the ball onto the bar.

Invariably, it will land just over the bar and then nestle in the back of the net.

And then I'm forced to walk the lonely walk to go and get it.

And everyone's just like, oh, that's annoying.

The ball doesn't bounce back for us to enjoy.

But then you, yeah, as Nick said, the ringer multiplier as well, having to factor up the anxiety of having your first effort on goal.

and and by that point once the warm-up's really started charlie you've got someone in goal hopefully to start you know fielding a few shots to make the whole thing a little bit more realistic at that point you can start to up the ante is that fair a bit but again you don't like it depends i mean it depends on the purpose if you're obviously if you're warming up a goalkeeper that's quite like a fine line strategy as well as yeah you're cutting you are but but again that feels quite weird because you're like this is quite an unnatural thing to be trying to do to

you but yeah i think even in like five side you're sort of just peppering them a shot you don't want want to be like absolutely leathering it past them.

It's like in tennis when someone just smashes a winner past you and you're having a little knock-up or whatever.

In the warm-up, yeah.

There's one player who's like supposedly notorious for that.

A professional player, you mean?

Yeah.

Other players have criticised it, yeah.

The thing with doing it in a 11-a-side goal,

I often find myself with this sort of dilemma as well.

In that, as a defender, as well, it's so rare that I'll ever have a shot in a match.

So I sort of, there is a bit of a novelty of me being able to just have a pop from just outside the area and like sort of take a free kick or just, you know, have a shot in the warm-up.

So you do really want to go for it.

So I don't really mind about missing it, but the

open goal thing, when there's no keeper there, if you, as often happens, if I sort of try and bend it into the top corner, but I don't catch it right, it just sort of goes along the ground into the into the middle of the goal, you do feel really stupid.

You can't really take any pleasure from it, can you?

A friend of mine had a

quite extreme example of this where I can't remember what the scenario was, but he was playing at Anfield and I think before the game, and

he's got quite a good shot on him.

And then, but there's this clip of him, someone's filming it.

There's a clip of him, the person who's filming him taking the shot, and from that, it looks like he's got quite a nice contact on it, aiming into an open goal.

And then the sort of camera pans and follows the ball as it sails gently, very, very far wide and into the cup.

Another level, though, isn't it?

Yeah.

Oh, God.

The pressure to find the postage stamp stamp there and yeah not not embarrass yourself um charlie during a five aside warm-up it strikes me that there's like sort of 10 of the population who are completely illiterate to the acceptable range to shoot from in a five aside warm-up people who absolutely hammer it at you from just inside the sort of d and you think what are you doing and then i in various like situations this you it's usually sort of you know fellow dads or something you don't know very well you can't say oh please don't do that mate like can you just not people just don't get it they just batter it at you because they play football every now and then.

They don't realize

there's an implicit distance that you're supposed to do this from.

As in inside the area of a goal, you're not allowed to shoot from in the game.

I mean, that's insane.

Yeah, I mean,

flirting with the edge of the D.

I mean, you shouldn't even really be shooting from the edge of the D in the warm-up.

Yeah.

Really?

Like, it's just like, come on.

Testing the goalkeeper's reflexes.

Yeah, just absolutely batch it, like, just a bouncing loose ball as well, just like half-volleying it at the goal.

I'm right here.

Can you just not do it?

Like, that's not a warm-up.

i was just like jesus man um but yeah michael cox has tapped into the anxieties of a a whole nation of five aside players there writes second irritation for this month comes from dan engrin mez at holland dick's frustration of football

i

i hate the

cliché

If it's not a foul, book them for simulation.

Which is often said by the same sorts of commentators

who

will say it's a physical game, it's just a coming together, blah blah blah blah blah.

But, you know, if he goes down and it's not a foul, it's a booking for simulation.

That doesn't make sense.

That's bullshit.

Stephen Warnock just did it.

And it annoyed me

like five seconds ago.

So there we go.

Adam, what what game?

What game did you listen to?

I was distracted by one, that, and two, the idea of an American knowing who Stephen Warnock is.

I heard Harry Maguire say.

So Harry Maguire as well.

So authentic, that recording.

Yeah.

A nice evolution from someone having the waves lapping at the shore.

This is a good example, Dave, of some indignant football logic, I think, sort of a complete and deliberate disregard for the inconvenient grey areas of football.

So it's foul or booking for diving.

I mean, it's a completely unsustainable piece of logic, isn't it, really?

Yeah, and you have to be a bit careful in terms of.

I don't want to sound too

sort of snobbish here, but

when you've played the game,

like, I do find that often, like, in my friends and stuff, and people, when you, when you hear people going mad about any contact and saying that should be a foul or a booking or whatever, it is often from the people that don't really play football or haven't actually played like proper 11-aside football ever.

Like they don't really get that

you can clash with people.

Like you can be physical and it not be a foul.

Like that is part of football.

These grey areas are interesting to me, Nick, because

it's the sort of lightly applied logic that football is still a contact sport.

And that logic is applied for not giving fouls a lot of the time.

It's just like it was just a coming together in the box.

Like these sort of flannelly languaged sort of ways of expressing that it wasn't really a foul.

It's just a bit six of one, half a dozen of the other.

And, you know, you get professional referees on broadcasts saying, nah, not for me.

Just that's a bit soft.

You think, that's not in the PGMOL handbook.

You can't talk like that.

You've got to tell us either way, like why it's not.

So I think a lot of people are addicted to that kind of middle language because it feels like they can just fudge an answer.

Yeah, this often feels slightly passive-aggressive as well.

It's like the person isn't usually saying, well, that should be a die, a yellow coffee simulation.

They're using it as a kind of proof that it was actually a foul.

Right.

Well, if it wasn't a foul, then why isn't he booked him?

Well, yeah, as an extension of that, I remember Robbie Keene should have won a penalty for Spurs at Stamford Bridge.

I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was in the Parking the Bus game in 2004, and he ran up to the ref and said, book me then.

Book me then.

Yeah, if it's not a penalty, you've got to book me.

Is that a trickable offence?

Do you think like getting trying to ask himself,

did he wave an imaginary card?

The reverse Robbie Fowler.

Sometimes your memory really comes up, Trumps, and that is one of the occasions.

It was a great moment.

David, imagine a dystopian future, a dystopian parallel universe, perhaps, where

football is ruled by this dichotomy of foul or booking for diving.

What a hellish existence that would be.

Just be yellow cards everywhere.

And players just go, yeah, I suppose so.

It was one or the other, isn't it?

Yeah, although, I don't know, I think you have slightly fallen into a trap there of if we were giving bookings for that or if we are giving penalties for that, then we're going to be giving, you know, 40 a game or whatever.

That's way too many for the proverbial penalties per game.

How many was it?

I think is it 10?

10 to 15?

I'm giving 10 to 15 penalties a game for a little bit and then I'd then I would lose interest.

But

that Robbie Keenan story has completely fried me.

Dan Engeren,

yeah, I need to know what game is in the background there.

But yeah, thank you for that.

Right.

The third and final irritation from our listeners this month comes from George Gooderson.

Hi guys, my niche footballing irritation is the way that penalty shootout scores are are recorded.

A relatively recent example is England beating Spain in the Euro 25 final.

It's recorded as 3-1, but England took five penalties and Spain took four.

This seems a little bit unfair to me.

I get it.

Spain couldn't come back from 3-1 down at that point, but England had the benefit of taking another penalty.

It could well have been 3-2.

I think a fairer way to do it would be to just say England won on penalties and leave the score aside because at the end of the day, it's a tiebreaker anyway, so it doesn't really matter what the score was.

One team just prevails over the other on penalties.

I think saying 3-1, 4-2, whatever it is, is just ridiculous.

This has absolutely blown me away.

I started listening to this thinking, okay, he's going to be going on about how penalties shootout score lines shouldn't be added to the score after 90 minutes, as is so often the case.

All sorts of things, like just, or maybe the representation of the score on the screen.

And then it went off in a direction I had no idea that it was going to go into.

This is mental, by the way, mental.

It is mental, but all it made me think of is the so in that scenario he presented where he said, well, maybe it could have been 3-2.

I just...

The delicious futility of someone having to take a penalty that doesn't mean anything.

A consolation penalty.

It's so pointless and futile that I now desperately want it to happen.

This is all I want to talk about now, Dave.

The scenario of a consolation penalty in a shootout where the...

penalty itself would make no difference to the end result.

What does the walk up to the ball look like?

What kind of penalty is it?

Does the goalkeeper care?

What do the bottom fans doing?

Are there ironic cheers when they score?

A panenka in the consolation penalty.

Keeper just lets it go in and just goes, all right, well done, mate.

And then wheels off in celebration with his teammates because only then is he allowed to do it.

This is like we sometimes get on a cliché's quiz where it's like the quiz has been wrapped up.

It's like, well, do you want your last question anyway?

Or like happy hunting grounds live where you've already won off with a round to spare and I still let you have a go.

This is absolutely amazing.

George Goodison, I'm really sorry for completely banning you here, but I just did not expect where this was going to go.

It just blossomed into something beautiful.

Yeah, I mean, I sometimes have a mild curiosity if I see a penalty scoreline of, oh, I wonder if that was a, you know, just how comfortable that was, because yeah, you don't know.

But that's all like, that's as far as it goes for me.

And, well, to be fair, Charlie.

And I might check.

Yeah, for someone as football literate as yourself, if you are slightly befuddled by that, then perhaps there should be a method for demonstrating that the other team had a penalty left.

You know what I mean?

I mean, the way the sort of tennis sort of denotes a tie break, you know, it tells you exactly how many points they did get in that tie break to win it.

You know, so something like that, would that help?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, but again, I was thinking like with tennis, it would be like you've won the set, but go and have your serve as well to see if it's a 6-4 set, even though I've won it 6-3.

Just so we're clear, because 6-3 could be two breaks, it could be one.

So at least that way we know.

Stat padding as well.

Yeah.

It's like, you don't need to do it.

But does anyone ever really look at the scoreline of a penalty shootout?

Do you ever actually pay any attention to that?

Only in the moment I might.

Like, there are some curiosities.

I remember very vividly, I think it was 95 at the Cup, there was a 2-0 score.

There was a 2-0 score in a penalty shootout.

And I remember being like, that is mad.

Like, what has happened there?

So I would like to check how that went down.

Yes, that is.

I generally know.

2-0 is a completely unacceptable penalty shootout scoreline, Nick.

What's your favourite?

I actually can't remember what the exact scoreline was, but the 1986 European Cup final was Barcelona against Stauberkares was famously terrible.

I don't think Barcelona scored any of their penalties.

I can't remember how many Stouse scored.

Hang on.

If I think there was a way to find this out.

Yeah, go ahead.

Go ahead.

Ah, it was 2-0.

So there you go.

Another salary.

There you go.

There you go.

But the first four penalties were missed.

Two on each team, and then Stow scored their next two, and Barcelona missed.

That is dreadful.

That's actually dreadful.

Dreadful pursuit out, both in essence and in delivery.

Dave, I'm keen on a 4-3.

I don't really mind.

Don't really care who goes first or second in this scenario, because, as you say, I'm not really going to look into it, but a 4-3 looks right.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't really care, to be honest, but

I was just trying to...

I'm not doing this.

No.

Can we...

I don't care.

Can you get a 4-2?

Is that possible?

Yeah, you can get a 4-2.

Yeah, yeah.

I'll have a 4-2 then.

I like a 4-2.

Charlie, do you know what?

I don't mind a 13-12.

Sure.

I'll take a double, double figures.

I'm all for it every now and then, but it should only happen in like an England under-21 tournament game or something like that.

Nothing major.

Not like a Champions League final.

I remember South Korea in the 2002 World Cup beat Spain 5-3 and that looking again like, is that possible?

possible?

Fair play.

That is a bit weird.

And I can't really remember one since.

Right,

we can't posit one more penalty shootout scoreline.

That is enough.

Brilliant stuff from our listeners this month.

Thank you for everyone who got in touch.

Thanks to you, Nick Miller.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshaire.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Tuesday.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sport Social Podcast Network.