Slot's embarrassment of riches, hyperliteral stadium noises & Zidane vs Dyche

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Gascoigne Gascoigne going to have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I say!

Brilliant!

He's round the goalkeeper!

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was eye without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, I say,

it's amazing.

He does it tame and tame and tame

Astonishing shouts from the crowd at Grimsby, BBC News getting their margin of defeat nomenclature wrong, Willie Wonka at the bridge, Troy Deaney versus Joel Ward in the battle of the mangled punditry clichés, highly appropriate stadium noises after Premier League club's goals, an entire pub unified in being happy to see Jack Grealish enjoying his football again, hyper-abbreviated nicknames that are longer than the actual name, and Keys and Gray get ultra-defensive about long throws.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Cliches.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the adjudication panel.

Joining me is David Walker.

How are you doing?

I'm very good.

How are you?

Yeah, not bad.

A 4-1 preseason defeat for Ribblesdale Rovers to Barking Mad on Sunday morning.

How are they looking ahead of the new season?

Well, we had the squad of 19 players, so it was there were wholesale changes made throughout the game, which did affect the rhythm somewhat.

Wasn't really a 4-1.

They're barking mad.

Actually, they turned up with 11 players.

So we had the better of the first half, we just couldn't score.

But then a few players for them turned up sort of at half-time and they were much better second half.

So yeah, no complaints from us.

But I would say a result which did not reflect our display.

Minutes in the the tank?

Yeah, good minutes in the tank for everyone.

Completing our squad for today is Nick Miller.

How are you doing?

I'm very well.

I'm not sure I'm happy with the players turning up halfway through,

even if they are substitutes and even though it's a friendly.

As we know, people in that league are stickler for the rules, so it's okay.

It was all cleared with me beforehand.

It's their loss.

I mean, turning up to a Sunday league game halfway through is a waste of a morning.

Tell you what's not a waste of time.

Coming to see us live in 2025.

We're in Brighton, Cardiff, London, Birmingham, Dublin, and Manchester.

Leeds and Glasgow sold out this October.

Go to tickets.football cliches.com.

As for Dublin, a rare Friday night show for us, Dave, as we talked about the other day.

So I am attempting to arrange a drinking hole for the post-show situation.

I am in talks.

with a local bar within 15 minutes walk of the venue.

All I really need in an informal tinpot basis is if anyone is listening to this from the Dublin area and is coming to the live show, could you RSVP to me in some form saying yeah I'm up for a pint afterwards so I can give them rough numbers and secure the venue and that's the best way I can think of doing it I mean it's gonna be fine isn't it I don't know just tell them just say we'll have I don't know 100 odd at least I went for 50

She said are there gonna be any famous people there and I was like

no but it will look like it's okay

I just yeah I got very uncomfortable at that point but anyway yes if you're coming to the Dublin show and you're you're interested in having at least one pint with us afterwards, let me know in some form and I can let the bar know and it's going to be brilliant.

Right.

Adjudication panel time.

I want to take you back to last week, actually, because we've got to address this.

Nick, amid Manchester United's humbling by Grimsby last week, was this.

As Brian and Burmo tried to drag his side back into the game, there was some incredible urging on from a travelling United fan.

Listen very carefully.

I am 80% sure, Nick, that someone shouted their get in on the act to Brian and Burma.

I heard, I don't know whether I need to listen to it again, but I heard get it up you, which I'm not sure whether that was encouragement or a barracking from Grimsby.

I would prefer it to be that, Dave, rather than get in on the act.

I really can't stomach the idea of someone actually shouting that from the stands.

It did sound more like getting on the act to me.

But I'm trying to, it's usually quite rare that you hear away fans, I think, picked up on

mics.

That's further complicating matters.

You normally assume it's like home fans who are sort of sitting near the...

near the press box and like near the commentary position or something.

Maybe it was a Grimsby fan saying, get him on his right, maybe, but then little do they know that Mberma's very capable with his right foot.

So

that's league two knowledge for you, I guess.

But yeah, want that to be true.

Let's just hope so.

This came from Mark Eden next, Dave.

This is how Manchester United's Carabao Cup exit was introduced on the BBC News the following night.

What is the future tonight for Manchester United's manager after the team's drubbing by fourth tier Grimsby Town?

A lot of people up in arms, Dave, about the use of drubbing here.

And then a few others suggesting that

it's not a BBC Newsreader's responsibility to be accurate here.

So where do we stand on this?

I mean, it is a disgrace.

Of course, it's not a drubbing, and it is their responsibility to be accurate.

It's

one of the main things they've got to do.

Yeah, when it comes to the language of football, I mean it.

But Nick, do we need BBC Verify to step in here?

We need a Ross Atkins explainer about what actually happened here.

I mean, it's particularly galling given...

you know, who's in charge of the BBC these days and the connections we have to him.

So it's not great.

They shipped 14 goals, didn't they, Dave?

That's surely a drug.

You called it right.

You just said humbling.

There you go.

Simple as that.

It was a definite humbling.

Yeah, I mean, I don't...

I think Manchester United papered over the cracks this weekend with their late, late show against Burnley at Old Trafford.

But Ruben Amarin's troubles clearly rumble on.

But according to Charlie Austin, there's only one solution to Manchester United's problems.

Because the situation Manchester United in, I would take Sidan, but is he the right man for the job as Manchester United speak at the moment?

How we see them?

Probably not.

In

my honest opinion, I think you've got to look at the job that Sean Dice did at Burnley, what he did at Everton.

For me, honestly, he stabilised the club.

At least he's going to put structure on that.

So, what you're saying is, if you don't get

Sedan, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm saying Sedan is the top of the tree for me, right?

But what the club wants, Sean Dice wouldn't have lost at Grimsby last time.

But what the club need and what Manchester United need now is structure, right?

There are two things here.

Dave, first of all, an incredible hypothetical shortlist for a massive club to have, Zinedine Zidane or Sean Dice.

Imagine them being interviewed on the same day with their little PowerPoint presentations.

Forget what that guy said.

Just nodding at each other as one of them leaves the interview room and the other one walks in.

Secondly, and more semi-seriously, Nick, is this idea that Sean Dice

has it in his locker to stabilise a club?

Presumably based on the idea that he just plays solid football?

Like, what evidence is there that Sean Dice could come in and stabilise Manchester United and bring them structure?

That's not what he does.

They're massive.

That's way beyond his pay grade.

I mean, the kind of success rates that he had at his other club are the sort of things that get a Manchester United man just sacked.

My worry about this, there was a little knowing grin on Charlie Austin's face.

Right.

And I don't know.

I don't know whether he was just saying that in a kind of, well, I know this is going to sound silly, but trust me.

Or whether he was doing it in a kind of windy-uppy kind of way.

I don't know.

That's potential.

But Sean Dice's job at Everton is cited as evidence for his ability to stabilise a club.

But I mean, he got sacked.

He had to leave because they were too unstable.

He left them in a better place, actually, according to Sean Dice.

He left them in a a better place.

And Moy's confirmed to Dice, as Dice has confirmed onwards, that he left them in a better place.

So maybe you can stabilise a club.

I mean, I'm tempted to lean to this a bit more, Dave, but I actually quite like Charlie Austin's delivery.

I think this is what I kind of want from a trainee pundit, which is just confidence in what he's saying, even if he is taking the piss very slightly.

Yeah, just really confidently suggesting Zidane, even though there's no...

Zidane's such a strange thing.

He's never going to be Manchester United man, isn't it?

He's such a strange sort of figure in the managerial landscape that, you know, had all that success in all those Champions Leagues at Real Madrid, but you still don't really consider him to be a manager.

Nobody knows how good he is.

Nobody does.

You've never read.

Nick, have you ever seen a single relatively long read article on Sidan's methods?

Nobody's ever written one, ever.

Nope.

Yeah, he succeeds seemingly on the basis that lots of very famous players go, that's Zenidine Zidane.

I will do exactly what you tell me.

Yeah.

And it's Real Madrid, who are their own ecosystem.

So the whole thing, just a beautiful segment there.

Now, back to the weekend.

The dying moments of Chelsea's VAR-afflicted win over Fulham on TNT Sports, by which time it had been comprehensively established so that Timothy Chalamay was in attendance at Stanford Bridge.

There's

Timothy Chalamay, the actor, played Willy Wonka.

Look at what Willy Wonka would have made of that Fulham goal.

What answer is there to that to that, Dave?

I don't know.

Why say it?

Why does there have to be a connection made at all?

He'd have chucked the VAR official into a river made of chocolate.

Old school, like it, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I just

and lovely little details in there, Nick.

Whenever, you know, that pertinent person appears on the screen, the commentator will have to go, there's uh, and there's that little pause because you don't want to commit to it.

You don't want to look like you're too eager to introduce them.

So says uh, Timothy Shallow, Scheller, mate.

Why do it?

There's also, I imagine, the kind of it is, it is him, isn't it?

We are sure it's him.

Oh, that was like the third time he'd appeared on screen.

So it's like, yeah, absolutely milking it.

But yeah, I don't know.

I wouldn't put it past TNT to have a little sort of agreement with PR companies.

Could you just...

Could you zoom in on our guy?

He's got a film coming out soon.

No, not that one.

Different one.

Yeah.

Interesting that he went for Willy Wonka.

I mean, Bob Dylan is his most recent notable performance.

He should have gone down that that road.

Surely there's way more avenues

than Bob Dylan.

Just a perfect, of course, the times they are changing.

Yeah, exactly.

Is Bob Dylan pro-VAR?

Not sure.

Probably not.

Elsewhere, this came from Sean McHardy and several others.

Spurs versus Bournemouth.

Troy Deaney on Talksport summing up the atmosphere at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.

And we're just looking over to our left now.

All the Bournemouth fans, happy as Larry, screaming, jumping around.

This whole place is as quiet as a pancake.

Somebody has got to do something to just inject a little bit of energy into this whole building.

This is the new no disrespect to egg for me.

Quiet as a pancake.

I love it.

Flat as a mouse.

Flat as a doormouse.

Flat as a church mouse, in fact.

Yeah, that was superb.

Right, Brighton's dramatic win over Manchester City.

Oscar Brownlee wrote in, delighted by the new Premier League gimmick of clubs playing the sound of their nicknames after goals.

Mitoma into Gruder.

Gruder

must be.

It is

for fuck's sake.

Dave, this is better than goal music, isn't it?

Wow.

I want this across all 20 clubs from now on.

Yeah, which some of them would work fine.

You know, Chelsea could have a lion roaring, cannons going off when Arsenal score, cockerel crowing when Spurs score.

But what sound does a cottage make for Fulham?

Slamming of a cottage door.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, sort of nice rural wooden slam of a door, like a latch hitting and closing.

Cherries for Bournemouth, difficult.

Yeah, Everton would be sort of someone chewing a toffee in a way that someone with misophonia would absolutely hate.

Rustling of a wrapper.

But yeah, incredible.

I mean, it's a really high-pitched woman.

I don't know.

I don't know what happened there, but the Highbury Screamer reinvented.

The Highbury Screamer could have moved down to Brighton.

Yeah.

In the latter years, perhaps.

North London elites, now sort of Green Party voting Sussexite.

Very possible.

Anyway, this episode is brought to you in association with NordVPN.

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And I imagine, Nick, it's probably quite handy for smoothing over any cultural differences when you're on the road.

This came from Jordan Siachi and Kia.

Here is this week's foreign Premier League manager being confronted with a quirky English idiom to his considerable bafflement.

It's Arnie Slott on Five Live.

So yeah, as always, if we can strengthen the squad, we will.

But it should be for the right money and the right player.

And otherwise, we continue with this squad, where I'm very happy with.

An embarrassment of riches some might say we heard that one before an embarrassment of riches

what does that mean it means you've got a lot of very very sort of good shiny objects yeah okay uh you mean in our squad in your squad yeah no no what you're from yeah which is normal uh that's what we're the classic one too it's the deployment of a relatively high-risk english phrase and then the the actually failed explanation of what it is afterwards.

No one's prepared to have to explain what an embarrassment of riches is.

A couple of elements other elements that were really good.

Firstly, the interviewer immediately knew that he probably wouldn't know because he said, Do you know what that means?

And then he didn't explain it properly.

And then Arna Slot's clarification by saying, Do you mean in our squad?

Like it was going to be anything else.

No, just kind of the I mean, the new training gown is very nice, isn't it, Arnie?

That's probably what I mean.

A real test of Slot's affable demeanour there, Dave, wasn't it?

Yeah, and he handled it quite well, but I would have expected that there was a decent chance he would understand that.

I feel like the Dutch.

Oh, you'd always back the Dutch.

The Dutch's grasp of English is so good.

Yeah, that you thought maybe he would have come across something like that or been able to work it out.

But yeah, curious approach from the interview there as well.

Clearly, he knew that there was a chance it wouldn't come off.

Gary Flintoff, it was.

Which I actually think pound for pound is the sportiest name I've ever heard.

Lovely man, Gary Flintoff.

But yeah, an interesting approach from him.

Yeah, I enjoyed that.

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We'll be back very shortly.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

This is the adjudication panel.

Love this.

If you enjoyed the Troy Dini one, you are gonna just adore this.

Came from David Thompson.

This is amazing from up-and-coming pundit Joel Ward.

It's from Channel 5's post-match coverage of Crystal Palace's missed chances in their goalless draw with Frederikstad.

Then, this is probably the best chance, Mateta in.

Like Blen said, I think it's one of those ones that

you put your kitchen sink on in burying that.

And I think, oh, Joel.

Joel How much is a kitchen sink?

400 quid?

And that's a good one.

Low stakes stuff for Joel Ward.

We've got one of those kind of uh you know those country style big kitchen sinks which is quite nice.

I could look an enamel one.

Lovely.

Yeah yeah yeah.

So they would.

Yeah I know.

It was in the house when we when we moved in and stuff you know so that will be quite high stakes for me'cause I I like that kitchen sink.

You bet your kitchen island on him scoring there.

We don't have an island.

No, that's a very small point actually.

Yeah, I'm working on an island.

No, I'm not there yet either.

But yeah, Joe Ward, just keep things light, keep things small.

Begamblerware.com.

International break is upon us, Dave.

100 Miles and Running on Reddit says he was looking at the island squad and their announcement and they sort of the rundown of all the players in the squad.

And he said, seeing four midfielders in a squad announcement makes me feel ill.

They've got four midfielders.

That's it.

This is just a modern way.

I feel quite keysy about this.

So where have all the midfielders gone?

It is a modern thing.

We're always annoyed about this on the England pod in that there's this, do you lump wide forwards and number tens in with attackers or are they midfielders?

Should they have their conundrum?

Should they have their own separate category almost as well?

Because you'll have, you know, Morgan Rogers and Harry Kane in the same bracket for England, which doesn't feel right.

But then also, is Morgan Rogers and Declan Rice or Jordan Henderson also doesn't feel quite right either.

And it's the same problem here with Ireland.

Yeah, it's an issue for international squad announcements for sure.

I say I don't want to get too keys about it, Nick.

You know, I'm, you know, it's more of a comforting thing for my youth to know that seeing an international sort of squad laid out has just a big chunk of midfielders in the middle that makes you feel safe.

Like, they've got all the bases covered in midfield.

They will do all the jobs you need.

And now, when you only see four, you think, oh, that's it, we're fucked.

We're exposed.

Yeah, gonna get overrun in midfield.

How far away do you think we are from like these squad announcements being broken down into numbers?

So sixes and eights here.

We've got number tens.

Yeah.

Maybe in the same way that managers don't like giving away their tactics before games.

Like that might give things away too much.

But you know, in terms of granularity, Dave, I don't see any reason why that wouldn't happen.

At some point it might do.

There might be a sort of rogue nation that makes the first move.

First strike strategy.

But the managers have been I I'm sure Southgate and Tookle have been asked about this in press conferences at some point in terms of, you know, interesting that you've got Cole Palmer down as a midfielder here.

And,

you know, but they can always just use the gas out.

Social media block.

Like, yeah, I don't do the graphics, mate.

I've just, you know.

You've done it all in lowercase, Thomas.

What was that all about?

I mean,

that's alarming enough, Dave, but something for us to get used to.

But Tom writes in and says,

thoughts on Germany in their Instagram post announcing their squad using goalies.

I don't like goalies.

That doesn't belong there.

Goalies.

I told you the other day when we were recording the most recent episode of Dreamland, which went out last week on elegant variation and we did delve into elegant variation on goalkeepers, we brought up goalies and I was talking about how within sort of footballing circles and like goalies themselves, goalkeepers themselves like to use goalie quite a lot, even if it seems a bit weird to us.

So this is further evidence of it's

you know creeping into football properly.

Have they gone a bit more informal for the Gram, Nick, do you think?

Is that why?

Yeah, possibly.

It's sort of surprising that is it a common use in Germany, goalies?

No, this is an English language sort of version of the graphic.

And as we know, English language versions of German football, social media are the pits.

So we should be expecting this sort of thing anyway.

But yeah.

Further disgraces, over the pond we go, Dave, to the New York Times' mini crossword.

The clue was continent-wide soccer tournament informally, and the answer was Euro Cup.

Fuming, I sent this to you as soon as I did it.

As an avid

New York Times crosswoodman,

I knew it would be this as well.

And when it became obvious to me that it was Euro and there were three left,

I was hoping that there would be somehow they'd think of something else and it wouldn't be Euro Cup.

But I just inevitably it was.

And rubbish.

No one's ever referred to it ever as the Euro Cup.

Really rubbish?

This is a disgrace.

Like, if you can't shoehorn it in, Nick, don't use it.

Don't do it.

If Keesy finds out about this.

To me, this is just...

And I don't want to

use national stereotypes here, but it feels like Americans have heard of the World Cup.

So they think, well, what's the European version going to be?

Euro Cup.

Yeah, it's probably that, innit?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolute disgrace.

The worlds.

But that's enough.

That's enough about our employers.

Right.

Over at Talk Sport, Dave, they tweeted Newcastle have agreed a shock deal with Stuttgart Stuttgart for striker Nick Voltamada.

After countless rejections and hijack heartbreaks this summer, the tune are finally getting their man.

This is a disgraceful use of getting their man.

Otherwise, they're probably, what, third choice?

They didn't get Jorgen Strand Larson, did they?

So

was he their man?

How can you just suddenly become someone's man?

Yeah,

he's not their man.

Because...

Weirdly, I mean, unless I'm mistaken, I mean,

maybe in the depths of Newcastle Twitter, but I didn't see any reports linking Newcastle to Volta Mada at all until it emerged last week when the sort of Strand Larson deal looked like it was not going to happen.

All of a sudden, they just went, uh, should we just keep going down the list?

Yeah, let's get this fella.

Exactly.

You know, Nick, we're focusing here on the idea that Voltamada wasn't high enough in their pecking order to be their man.

But perhaps the motivation behind the tweet is that the Newcastle have just got a man and therefore he is their man.

But I'm not having that either.

I'm definitely not having that.

You can't just become the man, you know, in abstract.

No, I mean,

it's a discretion from start to finish.

On any number of levels, you can't justify any of it.

Well, there could be more twists and turns.

The way it's worded, after countless rejections and hijack heartbreaks this summer, the tuna finally getting their man.

Like, they're trying to play on the fact that it has been such a tumultuous summer for Newcastle in this respect in terms of the EZAC and trying to get a replacement.

But it just all falls apart at the end there.

Just a a frivolous use of transfer language, um, where it shouldn't be allowed.

Is this a kind of a real like an ultimate extension of they love a number nine uh in Newcastle kind of thing?

Well, maybe, whereby, just now anyone who's could vaguely be a number nine is their man, yes, spiritually, their man, kind of thing.

Yeah, that's definitely feeding into this.

It's a mess, perhaps suitably.

I think one thing we need to keep an eye on with Voltamada is who's going to be the first pundit on Match the Day that remarks upon his good feet for a big man because it's like it's his thing he's massive he's he's six foot five or something and but it but plays like a sort of dainty number 10 at times but i feel like it's gone the way of game of two halves and stuff that sort of thing you can't really say it in its native formats can you you've got to kind of you've got to mix it up a bit with a bit of knowingness in there i think i think you're giving the pundits uh of this nation too much credit there but we'll see yeah maybe um i enjoyed this from r barker82 nick he says i was in the pub last night a match of the day was on all five at our table agreed that it's really nice to see jack grealish enjoying his football again we then realized that the group of eight next to us were having the same conversation so 13 people in total all agreeing that it's really nice to see jack grealish enjoying his football again one guy in the other table wasn't really into football but even he agreed that it was really nice to see jack grealish enjoying his football again the supporter split was as follows two times man united one times liverpool three times chelsea one times bolton one times Oxford, two times Newcastle, one times Southampton, and one times I can't remember who he supported, one times not really into football.

Is Jack Grealish the most unifying example of it's really nice to see him enjoying the football again of all time?

Yeah, I think so.

There are two scenarios here, Dave, for being happy to see someone enjoying their football.

It's someone being released from their football prison, like Grealish allegedly was from Manchester City, or it's a player coming back from an injury hell.

Are both valid?

Yeah,

and maybe,

maybe also like David Brooks at Bournemouth, who had cancer.

You know,

if there's like a particularly

notable emotional off-field issue with illness or anything else like that, that obviously will come into this as well.

But yeah, I think Grealish is a textbook example for this because he also just occupies that sort of place

in modern English football.

He's kind of the closest thing we've got to Gazza, really, in terms of a sort of being a bit of a character off the field, people liking, people liking him to Gazza in that sense as well.

I love the fact that this, you know, snowballed so much and there's so many people got involved.

It's amazing.

It's the sort of thing that I think if football clichés was a, you know, is still going in 10 years' time and we hadn't heard about this, we could have got this as a message and go, do you remember that time when Jack Grealish signed for Everton?

And, you know, he was really enjoying his football.

Well, one night in the pub, we all got talking about it.

And then every year since we've all met up on the same night and we've all become best friends, one of them said, Godfather to my child who's called Jack.

Someone should let Grealish know, Nick, that

a small section of a pub will unified in their love for seeing him enjoying his football again.

Is he enjoying his football again?

Has he played enough football for Everton to be demonstrably enjoying his football again?

Ah, now this is the beauty of this, is that there is this, I think there's a window of

probably

a month to maybe two months where this is a football opinion.

is equally valid for any

level of football knowledge at all, as this kind of

scenario suggests.

If you don't know, if you vaguely heard of Jack Drugalish, oh, he's enjoying his football, that's nice.

And then even people who will say, well, three games is far too small a sample size,

can just say, well, it looks like he's enjoying his football, so that's fine.

But once you get beyond that, people will start to analyse his role in the Everton team and, you know, talk about his XA or

whatever it is.

But for this limited period of time, this is valid and perfect for anyone, any kind of level of knowledge.

Greedish is quite a candid fellow as well, Dave.

So that probably accelerates the looking like he's enjoying his football again because he quite openly said after his debut that he was really happy to be playing football again.

So I guess that kind of seals it.

It does seal it.

But there was a moment where the other day in the Wolves game, well, I think it was, I don't know whether it was maybe after the game or was it a celebration, but I think probably afterwards when

he was over by the fans and some of them sort of called him over and were taking selfies with him.

And it just did look for a second there where I wondered, hmm, maybe he wasn't enjoying that moment quite as much as we think because it was taking a little bit too long.

There are a few too many arms around the shoulders and he did it with all good with good humour, but it did look quite annoying.

I wondered about this as well because I think it was, it must have been Everton or someone put it as a sort of social clip of saying, the fans just don't want to let him go.

And I I was thinking,

is that good?

Yeah.

I mean, you know, I'm sure they're sure they mean well, but it's, you know.

This just feeds into my overall impression of this.

It's from the people in the pub, even the people who didn't like football, all the way to the Everton fans sort of gripping him at the Hill Dico.

We all own a piece of Jack Crealish, don't we?

He is gather all over again.

We own him.

He's ours, isn't he?

So, yeah, maybe that kind of almost parental kind of aspect to it comes in.

Can I make a sort of slightly supplementary point here?

Yeah, sure.

Watching Match of the Day in a in the pub.

Yes.

That feels weird.

I don't know.

If I am in the pub on a Saturday night, I sort of, and I don't know if this is like an age thing or whatever, but I sort of write that off as, well, I'm missing Match of the Day tonight.

But if it's there, well, you're watching it, aren't you?

Yeah, you're glad to.

But if you go to the pub to watch a game on a Sunday or something like that,

that feels right.

That feels like, I'm going to the pub to watch the game.

but what watching match i'm going you don't go i'm going to the pub to watch match of the day no i don't think they were all sat around watching it on the projector they've got it on the blackboard outside

all the games listed in order this could be a weatherspoon situation where you know you're just all in the pub and because it's on bbc someone stuck it on on one of the tvs with the sound off and they're sort of it catches their eye and they remark upon it i'd be really surprised if they're all sat round you know chairs pointed at the big screen oh god can you

put on could you put on bbc one

oh no you've gone too early no turn it off turn it off they're doing the news

what a tension that was by the way right let's move on uh i had a quick check of listenfairplay.com about this and to my surprise i don't think we've covered this before saman jonster writes in dave and says there was a double no right to x in the bbc commentary of everton vs brighton the other day and indeed um i noticed that this was used for dominic shabozlai's free kick against arsenal which was he was he he had no right to score from there.

So the question is: how many things do players have no right to do during a football match?

So, what's the number one thing that players have no right to do?

Let's do it family fortune style.

Score from there.

Score from there.

So, specifically, score from a certain location.

This might be a couple of places down the list, but if, like, I can't remember who the striker was, but when Ledley King chased a striker down there.

That was Iron Robin, I think.

It was Iron Robin, but yeah, he's got no right to get to him from there or no right to make that tackle.

Absolutely spot on.

So, yeah, if you're looking at something like a 70-30 challenge or a challenge where someone's got to make up ground, a la Ledley King just there, having no right to win that ball is definitely in there.

How do you feel, Dave, about a goalkeeper having no right to make a save?

He's got no right to make that save.

Physical endeavour, sort of, sort of, or reflexes, maybe.

So it's a bit like scoring a goal, but for a goalkeeper.

So I think the no right to threshold has been met.

yeah i think it's i don't think it would be said for a dive a reflex is like it's too obviously a reflex and it's sort of too close maybe one where they were there was some distance to cover and they're sort of sliding across the goal low and sort of just blocking one of the so the odds were against them but they did the work to get there like a double save what about that save remember that save that jordan pickford made against columbia in the the world cup where he had to kind of it was from so far out that he had to sort of run across the goal and then dive full length and tip it over the ball yeah i I mean, the Colombian player had no right to shoot from there in the first place.

Oh my god, that was an amazing collision of rightless football.

I mentioned saves because as soon as I was given this conundrum by Sir Man Johnster, the words echoed in my head and I was desperately trying to remember where it was from.

And it was, of course, from one of my favourite football childhood VHS videos, Saves Galore, 1989-90.

Worthington taking it on the run, checking what's in the centre.

And David Hurst is arriving, and Grubalar had no right to keep that out, but he did.

That was just a point-blank save, Nick.

I think he had every right.

He was in the way.

That's his job.

Yeah, it's sort of...

I think he's got the wording right.

He's got no right to keep that out.

I think his fits slightly better than no right to make that save.

But yeah, in that situation, he's if you would be annoyed that he hadn't made the save, then that doesn't qualify as a kind of no right to make.

Great logic.

Great logic from you overall today, Nick.

You're having a good day.

You're having a good session.

Thanks.

What is the threshold then for having no right right to shoot from there or score from there?

What's the distance we're talking about or angle?

Do you know what?

Yeah, it's definitely an angle thing.

So I think a diagram that I included in my latest book actually sums up the no right to score from there criteria, which is essentially like an angular gothic horseshoe around the penalty area.

It sort of gets its claws into the corner of the six-yard box where it meets the byline, Nick, and then branches out all the way to about 30 yards, 35, 40 yards, just

before the start of the centre circle.

And everything within the sort of enclosure of that gothic horseshoe is perfectly acceptable game.

You should be allowed to score from there.

You've got every right.

Other than that, it's no right.

In this graphic, it sort of ends around the centre circle.

So

there's a point between this graphic and the halfway line.

So

that's a completely different zone.

Absolutely, because if you think of, you know, the classic David Beckham goal against Wimbledon, no one would ever say he's got no right to shoot from there, no right to score from there, because it's so far out

that it's actually quite outlandish because it's automatically audacious.

It's audacious.

Like, if anything, it sort of flicks around the other way where, you know, you take it on if you've got the balls, basically.

There's no sort of nuanced reason why there's no right to score from there.

Because also central to the no right to score from there or no right to shoot from there, Nick, is teammates are in a better position.

It wasn't a great idea to shoot.

Whereas with Beckham, it's kind of implied that, you know, obviously there are better options, but he's gone for it anyway.

Another thing I like about this graphic is the bits that are cutting into the penalty area on the side.

Because one of the ones that sprang to mind was that goal that Carnu scored against Chelsea from like a really tight angle.

That seems quite no right to score from there, particularly as he kind of.

100%.

Yeah,

he got it like really the corner flag, didn't he?

And then drill past someone.

Yeah, that's the sort of attention to detail you get in

Extra Time Beckham's Penalties Loom.

How to use and abuse the language of football, which is out on paperback in mid-September.

Right, we'll take another short break and we'll be back very soon.

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Welcome back to Football Cliches, a reminder that you can sign up to our exclusive membership at dreamland.football clichés.com.

Episode six of Dreamland was out the other day.

The glorious strength and depth of the language of football.

Custodians, outfits, starlets, foot versus boot versus peg, want away Swedes, and the joy of football's elegant variation.

We had great fun on this, Nick.

I think it was very much our core mission of football cliches to get stuck into the language of football.

And I think, I think we nailed this very particular corner of it.

Yeah, absolutely.

It was

my Dreamland debut, and it was comprehensive as I hoped.

Yeah, you enjoyed it.

The look on your little face

was a joy to behold.

Dave, episode seven is going to be hot on the heels of episode six.

We're going to take a comprehensive sideways look at this summer's transfer window.

And unlike many other UK media powerhouses, we will respect the Turkish Super League transfer deadline before we publish.

Of course.

I mean, how could we not?

Yeah, can't go too early.

with those sort of things you might get stuff wrong.

Anyway, if you want to enjoy that and add free listening of all of our episodes, plus other bits and bobs, go to dreamland.football cliches.com and sign up for just $5.99 a month.

Now, Nick, if I said nicknames such as CR7 or R9 to you, what sort of function are you going to say that they serve?

Pure social media,

possibly in the usernames of those weirdo accounts.

But less glamorously, Dave, it's more about sort of efficient expression of a player's identity, right?

That's what they exist for, just being a bit snappier

for the attention deficit generation, basically, yeah?

And also, it's almost a status thing as well.

It's like you've earned your abbreviated initials and number status.

Yes, absolutely.

But obviously, as with many things like this, it's started to kind of bleed into sort of semi-ironic mainstream usage.

But here's one for you.

Spurs youngster Will Lankshire has made a promising start on loan at Oxford, two goals in his first four championship appearances.

And Oxford tweeted out their mini tribute to him the other day, Nick, with WL27, which is 167% more syllables than his actual name.

I mean I'm not against it because obviously it's you know they're just being they're being they're being fun they're being they're playing with it but um I don't think can you think of a possible abbreviation of a player's name and number that more exceeds the number of syllables in their name?

Probably.

That just sounds like a postcode.

I suppose CR7 does as well.

Yeah, CR7 must be a Croydon postcode, mustn't it?

Yeah, it's probably one quite near my house.

Yeah, there you go.

CR7.

Dave, in the prep for this segment, I got myself into a right mental dilemma about how many syllables there actually are in Will Lankshear's name.

Is it Will Lankshear or Will Lankshear?

Oh, yeah, is that Shea?

Is that an extra syllable?

I think it's just Shearer.

Will Lankshear.

1, 2, 3.

Even Martin Tyler pronouncing it then.

Will Lankshear.

Lankshara.

Barry Davis.

Right, here's a conundrum for Derek Mahood that I'd never considered before.

I'm not sure either of you two have either.

He says, I was at the Kilmarnock Dundee match the other day.

Quite early on, a Dundee defender had to go down the tunnel to get bandaged up and was off the pitch for about 10 minutes.

A few minutes into this, the Dundee goalkeeper went down with, in my opinion, the fakest injury I've ever seen, in an effort to minimise the time spent playing with 10 men.

I think goalkeepers' faking injury is quite a well-known phenomenon.

However, I've always wondered whether they maintain the pretense to the physio or whether they tell them that they're faking and then the physio then knowingly pretends to treat their fake injury.

I can't decide which scenario would be weirder.

I wonder what you think.

Nick, I mean, is there an ethical situation here for the physio?

I know

What would you have to do in that scenario?

Yeah, some kind of Hippocratic oath problem.

The physio's

obliged to treat whatever he's told.

So if

the player says, oh, I think I've done

some knee ligament injuries here, then they say, well, surgery it is.

You've got to come off.

But

does it betray the Hippocratic oath to pretend to treat an injury that doesn't exist?

I mean, as long as you're qualified, that's all right, isn't it?

Yeah, I suppose

you issue kind of treatment that you think is appropriate at the time.

Yes.

And if you think that this is not perhaps as serious an injury as it might appear, then you give the appropriate treatment and you're clear.

Yeah, I think you can plausibly say that you just had to take full precautions.

Yeah, exactly.

It's a prognosis situation, right?

A diagnosis situation.

You've got to do your best to ascertain whether they really are rigid or not.

Yeah.

And there's so many injuries that are very easy to fake in this scenario as well.

You know, it's not like we need to see blood.

No.

Or twisted ankle.

You know, cramp.

Cramp will get you out of a lot of trouble in a lot of situations in this one.

But obviously, you know, physios have seen a lot of football, Nick.

They're sports literate.

And of course, let's not, let's be honest, they're probably privy to some of these strategies anyway.

So they probably know it's they know full well it goes on.

So when they arrive at these at the at the incident, they're probably they are having to act out being a physio, which is really funny.

This is a kind of uh I'm sorry to bring rugby into this, but the the um bloodgate scandal.

Part of the problem with that is that the physios were all kind of in on it and they were complicit in the whole thing.

So I don't know, maybe as a physio, do you have to kind of go, look, whatever you're doing, don't get me involved in it.

I just have to have plausible deniability here because it all kicks off.

Dave, if I had to choose one physio-y thing to act out if I was coming on to treat a pretend injury, it would be to lay them down and then kneel down behind their head and then sort of feel their neck.

You know, sort of get them into a kind of, well, this, we've got to take every precaution here, get them, make sure they don't, don't move.

We've got to check everything here.

Why are you feeling my neck, mate?

I've got cramp.

Stick with it, all right?

This is the longest delay we can get.

I just went down holding my hammy.

Surely the go-to is the kind of, is the bending of the leg

at the knee.

How's that feel?

Is it all right?

Maybe you can run it off there.

Maybe you can run it off.

You'll be fine.

Do you think they have to also, depending on how, if they are on it, do they have to do that thing now where they speak to the bench

on the mic?

So they kind of look over to the bench and sort of press their ear like they're in the secret service and give it like a little update on it.

And it's like, yeah, nothing to worry about.

He's doing the faking thing.

Yeah, it's fine.

It's fine.

Can one of you just sort of make some commotion with the fourth official, please?

Just give us an extra 30 seconds, will you?

Oh, you know, given the horror injuries that physios must have to face every now and then, this is probably the fun part of the job, pretending to do your job.

So, yeah, Derek Mahouda, thank you for this one.

Right, finally, this came from Tommy Rose.

He says there was a discussion on the latest Totally Football show about West Ham's team changes for the League Cup game against Wolves and whether they could be considered wholesale.

My question is, how many changes qualifies for that term?

A minimum of five, maybe even six for me.

First up, Nick, I put it to you that wholesale changes can't be thrust upon you.

Wholesale changes are a manager's discretion.

Like, it's a rotational thing.

You don't make wholesale changes because of injuries.

Wholesale changes are are because you want to make them.

That's true.

So

do you then have to then factor that in?

Let's say you make seven changes, let's say, but three of those are because of injury.

Does that then dip the wholesale thing below a threshold?

Five or six, I'm not sure, quite qualifies as the threshold.

I'm going like seven, eight for wholesale changes.

Well, to answer Nick's first question, Dave, I think as long as the majority of the changes are not enforced, then you can lump the others in, but you will have to say that they are have those two or three have been enforced.

As for the threshold, I think as long as it's more than half the team, i.e.

six, then that's wholesale, right?

That's the majority of your team being changed.

Now that you can make five substitutes in a game, I think that feels a bit too few then to be, you know, even six feels a bit too few to be wholesale.

Six changes is a lot.

It is.

Yeah, no, it is, but is it wholesale?

I think, I think you need to, I think wholesale

would have to be all play, every single player change, wouldn't it?

Yeah, I want edging towards 10.

Okay.

Wow.

Fucking hell.

Jesus.

I think that there's also a situational kind of element to this as well, because if

it's like early rounds of the League Cup kind of thing, I don't think

you can't say that like six or seven, or maybe like six changes is wholesale because we're so used to Premier League teams just playing a whole different team for those things.

But if it's like a manager is panicking, you know, you've lost a few games, they're panicking, they've changed the formation, they've dropped the goalkeeper, they're, you know, they're trying in a new system or whatever it is, then the threshold dips a little bit from that.

In that scenario, I think you could say that like five would qualify as wholesale.

Okay, wow, what to and fro this debate has been.

But I've enjoyed it.

Thanks to Tommy Rose.

But anyway, speaking of curmudgeonly resistance to things changing, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

Just one item for Keys and Grey Corner this week.

Here are the gruesome Tucson reacting to the resurgence of the long throw-in at top-level football, enabled in part by renowned throw-in coach Thomas Gronnemark, who you will not be surprised to know they do not take seriously whatsoever.

But in summary, I think this might be the most muddled Keys and Grey reaction to a modern football development there has ever been.

Talk about the game moving on.

There's been a rash this year in the Premier League of

long throws.

You were very skeptical when I mentioned to you a couple of years ago that Liverpool were employing a throwing coach.

Yes, yes.

I'll give you the facts and figures in a minute.

Let's hear from him.

Hi, it's Thomas Connemark, the throwing coach.

In this video, I'll give you a four-step drill that will improve your own or your players long throwing.

This season 2.4 long throw-ins per game as opposed to 1.7 last.

These are the teams down here that have been utilising it.

It won't come as a surprise to see Manchester City haven't thrown the ball long once.

Now Thomas Grunemark there, let me tell you, when he was at Liverpool, They won seven trophies and he's quick to point that out.

Seven trophies, including one title.

he did what he didn't say was he wasn't there when liverpool won 19 others no that he won

i mean honestly kee i'm sorry he was

i'm sorry

okay is this how you're supposed to do it yeah honestly i'm flabbergasted honestly you should have told me you were putting this on you really should i mean what would tony pulis

Dave Challoner, who did it?

I mentioned last week.

Dave Challoner was doing this for Tranmere when John Aldridge was the manager.

Rory DeLab.

We were doing it 50 years ago.

I mean, well, not quite 50, but 40 years ago.

You weren't.

We were.

Right.

There's so much going on here, Nick.

I'll get on to the main crux of this in a moment.

But first of all, can I just clarify that it's one of my favourite noises in the world is Keesy chuckling over the Doha air conditioning.

It's got real ASMR qualities for me.

because of rages as well.

Bloody air conditioning.

Absolutely mad.

How is that a professional broadcaster still doing that?

But

what blows my mind about this, Nick, is obviously they're programmed to say, okay, this is a...

But Nick, they are programmed to suggest that every new development of football is part of a cyclical thing in football.

We've seen it all before.

But the thing about long throw-ins is they're coming back.

There's been no insinuation from anybody that long throw-ins have been invented.

Not at least by Thomas Gronamark himself.

He's not claiming to have invented the long throw.

He's just channelled his expertise into one element, which is a modern football development to granularise coaching.

That's no problem.

But the bit where this really gathers pace is towards the end where he says,

what would Tony Pulis make of this?

Tony Pulis would think that's a brilliant idea, yes.

And so

bringing up DeLap is one of the worst examples you could because, as someone who relatively recently wrote a piece about Rory DeLap's long throws, they thought about it a lot.

And

they were really careful about where they positioned players in the penalty area to kind of maximize the whole thing.

And they were obviously such a huge thing was made of the trajectory of the throw and all that kind of thing.

Presumably, in Andy Gray's worldview, the throw-in, you shouldn't just think about it, just throw it in.

Yeah, just throw it in and not really think about it.

But that's exactly what Tony Pulis and Stoke did.

They thought about it a lot and they very carefully planned this all out and they were incredibly successful with it.

I just

don't know what to make of this, Dave.

I think it's a sensational kind of autopilot kind of reaction to something, but they just haven't thought it through at all.

It's such a strange thing for them to be annoyed about because, you know, they should love long throws.

Yeah.

Like, it fits in with their worldview.

And what would Tony Pulis do, Keesy?

Look, if Thomas Gonemark was active back then, I'm sure he would have probably brought him in.

And

the bit where Keesy starts laughing is when Gonamark is sort of on the screen, sort of

side on, and someone's filming him showing you the technique, his four-step process to getting your throw-ins better.

And it's...

Like, what's wrong with that?

Like, it's just, it is the basics, but like, also, as we've discussed many times before, like, taking a throw-in, even if you're a professional, like, taking throw-ins is hard.

Like, hurt.

Just doing some simple, learning some simple techniques to make yourself better at throw-ins is a good thing.

Yeah, this isn't kind of pro-license alchemy.

It's just teaching someone to throw a ball further.

I can't believe it.

The derision that they've had for this and then the kind of the bit where he, Nick, where they say, well, he won one title in Liverpool, but he conveniently forgets they won another 19.

That's the pin it on him.

What is this all about?

Oh, dear.

The other thing I liked is

the graphic on the screen was a feature from the Daily Mail, which I like to think.

Keys just took a screenshot of that from his iPad and just sent it to the graphics demand.

Just throw that up.

Just throw that up.

They'll be fine.

I don't know what their standpoint is on this, actually, after all this.

I'm completely confused, but it's just a magical slice of Keys in Grey.

Thanks to you, Nick Miller.

Thank you very much.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We're going to be back on Thursday with the latest football clichés quiz.

Join us then.

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