”The most involved-goals man", Swiss Army knives & watching the Roy Keane film trailer

Speaker 1 This is Marshawn Lynch, aka Beast Mode, checking in this holiday season.

Speaker 1 Everybody out here stressing, shopping, rapping, cooking, but me trying to kick back, martial sports, and go green on my Proz Picks lineups.

Speaker 1 Right now, Prospects is getting into the festive spirit where new users get $50 instant in lineups. When you play your first $5, it's real simple to play.

Speaker 1 Pick two or more players, pick more or less on their stat projections, and you could win big. Real simple, real quick.
I'm talking two-minute tops. Faster than heating up leftovers.

Speaker 1 Mix and match players from any sport all season long on prize picks. Available in 45 states, including California, Texas, Florida, and Georgia.

Speaker 3 Download the Prize Picks app today and use code Spotify and get $50 instantly in lineups when you play $5.

Speaker 3 That's code Spotify on Prize Picks. They get $50 instantly in lineups when you play $5.

Speaker 3 Win or lose, you'll get $50 in lineups for just playing.

Speaker 4 Guaranteed. Prize picks.
It's good to be right.

Speaker 3 Must be present in certain states.

Speaker 5 Visit PrizePicks.com for restrictions and details.

Speaker 6 Deck your home with blinds.com.com. TIY or let us install.com.

Speaker 5 Free design consultation. Free, free, free, free, free, free, free.
Plus, free samples and free shipping.

Speaker 5 Head to blinds.com now for up to 45% off with minimum purchase, plus a free professional measure.

Speaker 2 Rules and restrictions may apply.

Speaker 7 This episode is brought to you by Progressive Commercial Insurance. Business owners meet Progressive Insurance.

Speaker 7 They make it easy to get discounts on commercial auto insurance and find coverages to grow with your business. Quote in as little as eight minutes at progressivecommercial.com.

Speaker 7 Progressive Casualty Insurance Company, coverage provided and serviced by affiliated and third-party insurers. Discounts and coverage selections not available in all states or situations.

Speaker 8 I'm sorry, sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Speaker 9 Is Gas going on out of crack?

Speaker 2 He is, you know. Oh, I think

Speaker 2 brilliant.

Speaker 2 But jeez! He's round the goalkeeper. He's done it!

Speaker 2 Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and kung fu kicked a supporter who was, I will, without a shadow of a doubt, giving him lip. Oh, I say!

Speaker 2 It's amazing! He does it tame and tame and tame again. Break up the music! Charge at last!

Speaker 2 This nation is going to dance all night!

Speaker 9 Has the Club World Cup met the burst into life threshold? Is Angheldi Maria the most plausible member of any of the 32 squads? Ref Cam's inevitable move to the Premier League?

Speaker 9 What hybrid word links Barry Davis, Robin Cowan and Will Smith?

Speaker 10 Slightly desperate football references in Channel 4 TV listings, what would it take for a player outside of Europe to win the ballon d'Or?

Speaker 10 Swiss Army knives, passing ranges, and the first glimpse of Steve Coogan's big screen Mick McCarthy. Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.
This is Football Clichés.

Speaker 9 Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry.
Alongside me for this one, Charlie Eccleshaire, how you doing?

Speaker 11 Very well, thank you.

Speaker 9 And David Walker, how are you? I'm good. Coping with the heat, Charlie? I'm roasting in this little room, I have to say.
Yeah, I am.

Speaker 11 I had a real,

Speaker 12 I felt like a sort of a goalkeeper or a manager the other day.

Speaker 11 I was leaving the house and on the first floor, it was so hot, and the house gets so hot. On the first floor, looking out onto the road, there were windows.

Speaker 17 And I was like, do I close them?

Speaker 11 I was like, I'm just going to leave them open. And then if we get burgled, you've just got to put your hands up and say, too good.

Speaker 18 I mean, if they're, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 11 If they're scaling the walls in plain sight, then fair play to them.

Speaker 9 Like, there's, there's not a lot more we could have done, really i'll raise you on that one it was it was the 1950s around my area recently we went to went to see my mum and dad and uh came back and realized i'd left the front door wide open so it turns out you can do it yeah fantastic i felt right maverick right by now subscribers to dreamland will have discovered that episode two of dreamland is out now how football ranked itself blind our voyage day into the inane and mundane football content machine uh we had an amazing amount of fun with this one, and it turned out to be a little bit narrower than we expected.

Speaker 9 You can't really cover the whole football content landscape in one go, can you?

Speaker 18 You certainly can't. No, we might have to do a follow-up episode at some point in the future.
But we delved into the world of blind rankings, of winner's days on, head-to-head little videos,

Speaker 18 combined 11s, all-time 11s.

Speaker 2 I have to give Dave the big shout-out.

Speaker 11 He unearthed some unbelievable stuff for this. So, yeah, some great blind-ranking montage type material.

Speaker 9 Contains an old-timer of a montage. So, if you're interested in that, go to dreamland.football cliches.com to get involved.

Speaker 9 For just $5.99 a month, you get ad-free listening to all of our episodes, two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive new show.

Speaker 9 Pre-sale access to Football Cliches live tickets, free entry to cliches quiz live events. We got some in the pipeline for the southwest and the northeast.
So, stay tuned for details on that.

Speaker 9 And also, you get exclusive discounts on merchandise, which we will get around to sorting soon as well.

Speaker 9 Meanwhile, clichés live in twenty twenty five. I can tell you that Leeds is sold out.
Good old Leeds. Leeds and it Leeds has gone from our lowest point to never letting us down.
Dave, love Leeds.

Speaker 18 They're the happiest of hunting grounds for us these days.

Speaker 18 And closely followed by Glasgow, which is which is hot on hot on its tail in terms of the ticket sales. Yeah, get them while you can in all the other places.

Speaker 18 I do like your the the sort of cryptic vagueness you have around quiz events in the pipeline for the south west and the north east. I mean it's Bristol and Newcastle, we can say that.

Speaker 18 It's not going to be like Darlington and, you know, somewhere in Gloucester.

Speaker 9 Oh, dear. Tintagil, we're going to.

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Hopefully details will emerge of that. Charlie Sinex will say that those two venues are nearly sold out because they're the smallest venues of the tour.
But no, no.

Speaker 9 Most intense venues of the tour, if anything.

Speaker 11 Yeah, far from it. No, that's great.
I mean, Leeds, I feel humbled that even after that first show, they're, you know, I guess we made up for it last time, didn't we?

Speaker 9 Yeah, tickets selling really well elsewhere. Right, adjudication panel time.
This first one comes from Robert McMenzie.

Speaker 9 He was watching co-commentator Glenn Murray describe Denmark's opening goal against France in the under-21 Euros quarterfinal.

Speaker 4 Once this ball arrives at Bishop's feet, he has no hesitation, laces through it, pure power, leaves the goalkeeper rest with absolutely no chances. A wonderful finish.

Speaker 5 Top corner, eat your heart out.

Speaker 9 No one knows what eat your heart out means anymore, Charlie. What's going on? We had Pedro Porro eating his own heart out in preseason last season.

Speaker 2 And now the top corner is being instructed to eat his heart out, I assume.

Speaker 9 I don't know what's going on.

Speaker 13 Do you think it's a menabia going to pick that one out?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 2 Take your hat off.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Been mangled. Yeah, I do like that.

Speaker 9 Oh, dear. No, I don't think we've got any idea of what really was going on there.
But the real main event, of course, this summer is the Club World Cup. Now, Charlie,

Speaker 9 your cynicism at that, the Club World Cup, is well documented. as is my allegedly corrosion enthusiasm for it.
But yes, I'm telling you, it's burst into life.

Speaker 9 Boca 2, Benfica 2, Man Each sent off for those. Realm Madrid being held by Al Hillal into Miami 2, Porto 1.
PSG losing to Botofogo. 10-man Chelsea collapsing against Flamengo.
Barusio Dortmund 4.

Speaker 9 Mamalodi Sundowns 3. And chief football correspondents whinging about Uber prices and partisan foreign journalists in the press box.

Speaker 2 What more could you want?

Speaker 9 It's bursting to life.

Speaker 11 Was this the moment that it came alive?

Speaker 9 You watched any of it? Bits and pieces.

Speaker 11 I actually started watching a bit. I watched a bit of that Real Madrid Al-Halal match.

Speaker 9 I didn't watch all of it.

Speaker 21 No, I have watched some.

Speaker 11 And, you know, I never said it wouldn't be, you know, kind of reasonably entertaining.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 11 yeah, so it's probably met that bar.

Speaker 18 I actually thought I would get into it more than I have done. You know, I was kind of more

Speaker 18 aligned with you, Adam, before the tournament about being open-minded about it and seeing potential for some interesting stuff. But

Speaker 18 I have really struggled to be interested in it. I've watched a few bits here and there.
I don't know.

Speaker 18 As we spoke about before, the aesthetic of it is troubling me. I just can't quite take it seriously.

Speaker 18 It just looks pre-season-y, and it just something in me just can't quite, there's no gravitas to what I'm seeing.

Speaker 11 It doesn't help that the time difference means that that's all you're seeing. Like, you're not seeing live, you're not seeing evening games live, which does kind of skew it a a bit.

Speaker 11 Yeah, it's not under the light. You're only seeing the kind of daytime slow stuff.

Speaker 9 Yeah, it's not under the lights.

Speaker 9 And, you know, all the talk about the temperatures and the conditions in which they're playing, actually, they elevate my feeling of, oh my God, that looks knackering, which is never good for football and spectacles.

Speaker 9 So I think that adds to the pre-seasonness as well.

Speaker 9 But, Dave, I think we can all agree that RefCam, this sort of broadcasting innovation that's really been unleashed on the Club World Cup, is here to stay and is brilliant.

Speaker 9 Like, it's clearly destined for the Premier League. Like, I mean, we're already sort of close to the the bottom of the current barrel for broadcasting innovations.

Speaker 9 So they're going to be snapping this right up, I think.

Speaker 18 They should do as well, because it really does help the referee's case in terms of how difficult it is to see stuff in real time and from their vantage point.

Speaker 18 And it's good as well, because it drops you right into the match, but

Speaker 18 it's better than when they did the player cam on, was it? in the Aston Villa game?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was Tieleman's. That's right, yeah.

Speaker 18 And

Speaker 18 all you could see then, or you could focus on with that with the weird arms.

Speaker 2 Yeah, pumping arms.

Speaker 18 It's really not. So it's better to have it from the ref's point of view because you're just that little bit removed and you can sort of see everything.
Yeah, I do think it's good.

Speaker 18 The PGMOL should be all over it.

Speaker 20 Well, you're right, exactly.

Speaker 11 I mean, this would be a far more compelling case than getting Howard Webb and Michael Owen to pour over some clips.

Speaker 12 Just show them this.

Speaker 9 Be like, no, it's fucking quick.

Speaker 2 You try it.

Speaker 11 And even for the lads in Stockley Park.

Speaker 18 Yeah, sort of reminiscent of the kind of Met Police putting out some body cam footage, though, isn't it, after the event?

Speaker 9 Look, there's been some unexpected. Do you want to do it?

Speaker 9 Yeah, there's been some unexpected discoveries from this.

Speaker 9 Um, the referee during Realm Ridge Pachuca, uh, getting his red card out, um, held the red card from the top left corner, Charlie, to it to brandish it like he was holding up a Polaroid for someone to check, right?

Speaker 9 Which is really weird, just shaking it around, it was very jarring, and on ref cam, it just looked even worse.

Speaker 9 But yeah, yeah, I think we're definitely gonna see that in the Premier League within the next uh year or two. Um, this is great from De Puisla.

Speaker 9 Dave, he says, I just heard that Angel Di Maria is playing in the Benfiga versus Boca Jr.'s game, and I wasn't sure which side he was playing for.

Speaker 9 Is he the player who could feasibly play for the most club World Cup sides? And if not, who is? I mean, this could be spot on.

Speaker 9 I mean, it has to be a South American player because South American players lend themselves to pretty much all the confederations, I would say, most. Yeah, I think he probably is.

Speaker 18 There are a few other candidates because there are, if you look through the lineups, and I think they have to kind of be to meet this threshold, I think they need to be in that sort of mid to late 30s bracket as well, in that they could, maybe that rules them out playing for the top clubs.

Speaker 18 But Di Maria, you, you know, could feasibly still kind of be a squad player at one of the elite clubs, just sort of not like in the way that Modric was still at Real Madrid, you know, at that age, you know, you could still be hanging around at PSG, perhaps.

Speaker 18 So I think he kind of does tick all the boxes, but there are there are a few others.

Speaker 18 Looking through the squads, actually, I was surprised at some of the names that I saw, which kind of, again, gives it a little bit of that sort of World Cup feel where you go, oh, he's still playing oh that guy's still playing so um Sergio Ramos is playing for Monterrey

Speaker 18 which I had no idea that he was that's where he was playing but these Salamon Rondon at Pacheco yeah Rondon's there but even sort of lesser Brazilians like Alex Telles and Felipe Anderson like they I think they

Speaker 18 they could be in MLS they could be they could be in South America like they are they could be knocking about one of the sort of second tier European clubs at Porto or something So yeah, there are a couple of candidates.

Speaker 11 One of the players I thought actually isn't, I don't think he's actually playing at the Club World Cup, but I was thinking of Jamez Rodriguez.

Speaker 11 He for me, like, because he, he's sort of done the Porto thing. He was there, wasn't he? And then he's, you know, obviously he's done for the, he's played for Real Madrid.

Speaker 11 But I could sort of, I could definitely see him in MLS or I could see him in Saudi. I could see him back in South America.

Speaker 11 It also wouldn't amaze me if it was like, no, he's actually, you know, in the kind of Mikatarian style. No, he's actually, you know, still quite good, actually.

Speaker 11 And he's playing for juventus as a squad player kind of you know that sort of level i mean mikatarian if he wasn't playing for inter you'd be like he's still playing for an elite club he could just as easily be playing in qatar like a third wind yeah charlie you're on the money here because jamez rodriguez currently plays for club leon in mexico

Speaker 18 the team that got booted out just before uh the tournament started because of dual ownership god he should be there they should they should be able to loan him out somewhere for the tournament he's also so fifa he's just like you know, he's such like a kind of World Cup man.

Speaker 9 Great to see Charlie's logic being dragged back just to the last there. That's tremendous.
Solomon Rondon was probably a good shout as well. I think Auckland City kind of ruined this.

Speaker 9 None of these players could be feasibly playing for Auckland City unless they had a stake in the club or something like that.

Speaker 12 But a bit far-fetched.

Speaker 9 But yeah, Di Maria, good shout. Next up, this came from Housemaster.
A moment of healthy uncertainty for Dezone commentator Rich Wolfenden during Real Madrid versus Al Hillal.

Speaker 18 Here's Kulavali.

Speaker 18 Al Hillal looking looking to build on that disallowed goal.

Speaker 22 He can do such a thing.

Speaker 14 I think of it savage.

Speaker 9 Charlie, can you build on a disallowed goal?

Speaker 11 It's a very relatable doubt that he has there.

Speaker 11 I mean, often it's sort of the other way. It works the other way around, that the other team gets a bit of a lift from the like, that's a warning, boys, you know.

Speaker 11 Yeah, we've got away with one slightly there.

Speaker 9 But, Dave, marginal loss sides aside, or you know, minor infractions aside, it's proved that you can break the other team's back line. You should be buoyed by a disallowed goal, shouldn't you?

Speaker 18 I think it does depend on what kind of disallowed goal it is, because there are some which are obviously would never have like the play has kind of stopped and the other defenders have stopped because they know that it's obviously obviously offside or whatever.

Speaker 18 The ref hasn't blown yet, but there are some, increasingly, obviously, in the VAR age, where the play is full pace all the way through, and then you get a late flag or whatever.

Speaker 18 So, I think you can build on that. It can, yeah, it can give you some momentum, I suppose.

Speaker 12 Yeah, I feel like you try to, don't you?

Speaker 11 But in your head, you're a bit like, oh, that's really annoying. We've got this out.
It doesn't change any boys.

Speaker 11 Like, you know, we've shown we can get through them, but you're also like, oh, is that our one chance to scoring?

Speaker 2 It's coming, boys.

Speaker 18 It's already come in a way.

Speaker 19 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Rich Wolfenden, you have been vindicated. Elsewhere, Leonel Messi scoring that free kick for Into Miami against Porto, Dave.
Does that now put him firmly into his still got it?

Speaker 9 phase of his career, which I'm quite sad about.

Speaker 9 I'm sad to see Leon Almessi get to such an age.

Speaker 9 I want him to stick around for as long as possible, but are we now in a kind of retrospective part of consuming Leonardo Messi?

Speaker 12 I'm not sure.

Speaker 18 The whole MLS sort of spell,

Speaker 18 it's a bit strange, and there is the obvious contrast with Ronaldo in Saudi, and you're constantly still sort of weighing them up.

Speaker 18 And it's kind of how much of a retirement kind of PR sort of exercise is this? Or how much is Messi actually going out there every week and putting in 100% and scoring scoring goals?

Speaker 18 And his goals record is good for into Miami, and they've, you know, they've had some success. And yeah, I mean, I mean, perhaps this is a marker for it.

Speaker 18 I saw someone, I can't remember who it was, but somebody on Talksport over the weekend was suggesting that Messi should sign for Arsenal and

Speaker 9 win them the Premier League. We need to know who this was.
It doesn't sound like O'Hara. It doesn't sound like Cundy.
Okay.

Speaker 11 But I think, Adam, that's an authentic one in the eye for those who are saying you're kind of on the FIFA payroll, because I think the FIFA masters would be trying to claim that Messi's in the showing no signs of slowing down phase.

Speaker 9 I'm glad you mentioned showing no signs of slowing down. He is quite literally showing signs of slowing down.

Speaker 9 I mean, that's widely established that he is, you know, he is strolling around even more than ever. And his little legs look a little harder work for him in his late thirties.
So I don't know.

Speaker 13 But I think that would be the mess.

Speaker 11 You know, that would be the message that the Club World Cup and MLS are trying to put out.

Speaker 18 That, look, Messi's, he's just as good as he ever was.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 11 You know, he's still scoring free kicks and you know, big moments.

Speaker 9 I just don't want to see the phrase still got it attached to him just

Speaker 2 yet.

Speaker 9 I mean, we've already had rolling back the years as well, Dave, which I think is a softer way of saying a player is past their prime. I think it's okay to say that.

Speaker 18 But should still got it be reserved for when you

Speaker 18 retired?

Speaker 11 Yeah, well, I think that, yeah, because that's quite a manager doing it on the sidelines, isn't it? Or a testimonial thing.

Speaker 11 You know, Stephen Gerrard will go and score an amazing goal in whatever legends match is happening and field, and it'll be a still got it.

Speaker 9 Also, you know, if we were being really pinnickety about it, Messi's going to be bending free kicks into the opposite side of the net to where the goal is standing until he's about 60.

Speaker 9 I back him to do it.

Speaker 9 I really, it's more dribbling that really if he stops doing that, then I guess this really is all over. Next up, this came from HelpfulSox6199 on Reddit.

Speaker 9 Here's Dusan Vlavic entering the fray for Juventus against Moroccan outfit Weedad.

Speaker 2 Harvard chooses substitute as well against

Speaker 2 Alin.

Speaker 2 Most involved goals man of 24-25.

Speaker 2 20 of them. 15 goals, 5 assists.

Speaker 9 Charlie, I've got a lot of sympathy with commentator Mike Minay here. Goal involvement is already established as pretty clunky, even before you try and turn it into an adjective.

Speaker 9 So most involved goals, man.

Speaker 9 What a brilliant way of putting it.

Speaker 11 I like that he quickly moves to clarify what the hell he's talking about with the 20, the 15 plus 5. It does sound most involved goals, man.

Speaker 11 It does sound like something we'd come up with when coming up with a hypothetical descriptor for this.

Speaker 18 Most involved goals, man.

Speaker 11 Yeah.

Speaker 9 Could we tweak this into something a little bit more sensible? I mean, most goal-involved man.

Speaker 11 Most goal-involved man, yeah.

Speaker 9 Most goal-involved man. Most goal involved man.

Speaker 19 That says, I don't know.

Speaker 2 There's there's no there's no I mean, it's like Martin Tyler, isn't it?

Speaker 11 There was a sort of coal man, goal man thing he did a few years ago. It sounds a bit like that.

Speaker 11 I mean, it's not that you talk about the most goal man or the biggest goal man for the guy who scored the most goals.

Speaker 9 Would you be happy with a goal involvement machine, Dave?

Speaker 2 Yes. Yes.

Speaker 11 That's surely coming.

Speaker 9 Goal involvement machine.

Speaker 2 Oh, but it looks could work.

Speaker 18 Everything he touches turns to goal involvement.

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 9 This came from Matthew Robinson over on the US coverage. Here is Alex Scott pulling Paul Robinson up on his thoughts on Ruben Nevers' penalty for Al-Hillel against Real Madrid.

Speaker 22 Wait, Paul, I just need to bring this back because you said that penalty never in doubt. I swear when we were all sitting in the green room, he was like, I don't fancy Nevis.

Speaker 2 I don't know what he never doubts. But the way he took it, it was never in doubt.
Okay, okay. When we're back there and I'll watch it and I'm thinking, hmm, don't fancy him.

Speaker 2 He took it with a lot of composure. Okay.

Speaker 22 I might believe him, but I don't know.

Speaker 2 It might exhibit in the studio.

Speaker 9 Dave, what a case study this is to separate never in doubt and never fancied him for it. I mean,

Speaker 9 so Robinson's suggestion here is that he did fancy him, but then once he'd taken the penalty, it was never in doubt.

Speaker 9 He can't do that.

Speaker 18 For that split second when he made contact with the ball before it went in, it was never in doubt.

Speaker 18 You can't post-rationalize it like that. You can't commit to it.

Speaker 11 Unless you're suggesting it was never in doubt for the way the player hit it made it look as if it was ever in doubt for them.

Speaker 9 Yes, I'm being a bit sneaky here. What Paul Rummers is actually saying, Charlie, is that it was never in doubt the way that Neves sort of stepped up to the penalty.
He didn't fancy him before it.

Speaker 9 He didn't fancy the concept of Ruben Nevad's taking penalty. And why wouldn't you fancy him? He's just scored.
He's got the winning penalty in the Nations League final, didn't he, for a start?

Speaker 9 So why wouldn't you fancy him for this? And then, and then at what point can the cut-off begin between that and never in doubt?

Speaker 11 I mean, it does tap in something because I don't know about you guys.

Speaker 11 When I watch a penalty shootout, I can't help but fight the urge and guess either out loud or in my head where they're going to put it, whether it's going to be saved, how, you know,

Speaker 12 how convincing they are.

Speaker 11 And I'm just trying to think if I, if I ever do change my mind.

Speaker 11 I think maybe you do. You're like, do you know what? I actually think he's going to score.
Like, having thought in theory that this is someone who should be,

Speaker 9 you're like, it's a supercomputer with every step. Oh, 69%.

Speaker 2 Yeah. 74%.
What's that?

Speaker 11 Constantly calibrating.

Speaker 18 I think this is a thing, right?

Speaker 18 We've spoken about the sort of evolution of penalty suits before.

Speaker 18 In general,

Speaker 18 whether this is borne out statistically or not, it definitely feels like the average standard of penalties is much higher these days than it was, right?

Speaker 18 And I think that that sometimes means that there is this, there is still

Speaker 18 the impulse for us to look at someone and go, ooh.

Speaker 9 don't fancy him looks a bit nervous but then they don't follow through with that as much they do look nervous sometimes but then they still just go and smash it top corner so we're a bit confused as to what we should feel yeah and i think it's complicated charlie but i think there's a greater range of penalties these days so a player who might look ungainly or not able to take the sort of penalty that will be good in our eyes will take another form of penalty is actually really effortless and then it has to make that forces you to recalibrate what never in doubt actually means yeah yeah take for example dean houseon if he was stepping up for a penalty he's big he's tall his socks are rolled down, he's a centre-back.

Speaker 9 Traditionally, you wouldn't back him, but obviously he is going to strike that ball home.

Speaker 11 Yeah, or you'd think previously there's only one option for that big centre-back, and that's they're just going to smash it. Yeah.
But you're right now.

Speaker 11 They're so multifaceted.

Speaker 9 But I need an answer on this, Charlie. Like, what is the cut-off point for you to be able to confidently say never in doubt? How retrospectively can you go? I mean, you'd never say both.

Speaker 9 You can't say both, obviously, because you look silly. But at what point can Never in Doubt actually kick in?

Speaker 11 The run-up?

Speaker 18 Yeah, I was going to say, I think they need to be doing the run-up. Like, I don't think...

Speaker 9 How much can you glean from that, really?

Speaker 20 But to actually, as they're about to strike the ball, like, what's changed?

Speaker 11 Unless you're such a technical expert that, like, oh, yeah, I thought he was going to bottle it.

Speaker 11 But actually, seeing the way he pulled his leg back at that moment, I just knew that it wasn't going to be a good thing.

Speaker 2 Minimum back now.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I think realistically for the lay person.

Speaker 9 Right.

Speaker 11 You've got to be making your call by the time they're running up. Because

Speaker 11 that's when you sort of have your sense of like, do they look confident? Do they look like they want to be there?

Speaker 19 Are they shitting themselves?

Speaker 9 Well, I mean, this conversation alone, Dave, I think justifies Alex Scott's intervention there because, one, it was an overall quite a light-hearted exchange, but you sensed a little bit in Boram saying, oh, don't pick me up on that.

Speaker 9 What are you saying? It was just something you say.

Speaker 2 Tough, mate. Yeah.

Speaker 9 Right, that's it for part one. We'll be back very shortly.

Speaker 23 From mobile clinics in Jordan to water wells in Ghana, Islamic Relief USA is transforming lives through powerful development programs, education, medical aid, food, clean water, and women's empowerment.

Speaker 23 These efforts are helping millions thrive across East Africa, Asia, and even here in the U.S.

Speaker 23 Be part of the change. Visit irusa.org to support global development.
That's irusa.org. To make your donation today, Irusa.org.

Speaker 24 Looking to transform your business through Better HR and payroll? Meet Paycor, a paychecks company, the powerhouse solution that empowers leaders to drive results.

Speaker 24 From recruiting and development to payroll and analytics, Paycor connects you with the people, data, and expertise you need to succeed.

Speaker 24 Their innovative platform helps you make smarter decisions about your most valuable asset, your people. Ready to become a better leader? Visit paycorp.com/slash leaders to learn more.

Speaker 24 That's paycor.com/slash leaders.

Speaker 25 A new phone for Billy, a necklace for Sam, all the while on the lookout for scams.

Speaker 10 A swipe here and tap there.

Speaker 25 Better make it go far. Turns out mom didn't know she needs a new car.

Speaker 26 This year, stay on top of your credit with the My FICO app. Get your FICO score straight from the people that created it.
Plus, free credit monitoring and a free credit report every month.

Speaker 26 No credit card required. So make holiday spending one less dress under the mistletoe.
Visit myfico.com/slash free or download the MyFICO app today.

Speaker 9 Welcome back to Football Clichés. This is the Adjudication Panel.

Speaker 9 By the way, Thursday's episode this week will be this month's Listeners Mezza Harlan Dicks, where we're going to feature your niche footballing fascinations and obscure irrational footballing irritations.

Speaker 9 To get involved, send me a 30-second voice note, either as a Twitter DM or an Insta DM or to football cliches at gmail.com. We'll select the best half dozen to pick apart on Thursday's pod.

Speaker 9 As always, Dave, we want them to be original, but not too weird. Not ridiculously weird.
It's a bit of a high wire act.

Speaker 18 It is. I mean, every now and again, we'll let the odd, really weird one through.
So don't let that put you off.

Speaker 2 No, okay,

Speaker 18 yeah, you know, just keep it

Speaker 18 from the heart. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 9 Yeah, Charlie, I was trying to think of some that I was going to ask for a sort of moratorium moratorium on and say please don't send this one in again but it feels mean so i'm not gonna do that anymore no just send them in and we'll see what happens it's a numbers game there will be six there'll definitely be six so don't um don't be perturbed don't be dissuaded send in your 30 second voice note with your football fetish uh either good or bad right next up this came from kunal shah he says after hearing you guys laugh at the rendition of there's only one jeff erst in the last episode i then listened to bbc radio 4's documentary here we go Go, the Art of the Football Chant, in which sociology professor Les Back does a deep dive into football chanting and support to culture.

Speaker 9 It's a decent listen until it falls apart when Les tries to recreate the chant for ex-Millwall defender Tony Witter.

Speaker 27 And you had your own song.

Speaker 4 I think it was just at Christmas period. It actually started.

Speaker 5 That's right.

Speaker 4 And then they carried it on. And I was playing well and the team wasn't playing too badly.

Speaker 4 And they latched onto it and they took it as their little welcome to Millwall and Tony Witter, you know what I mean?

Speaker 27 Yeah, yeah yeah so it was to the tune of bing crosby's winter wonderland there's only one tony witter there's only one tony witter walking along singing a song walking in a witter wonderland lens this is basics

Speaker 9 come on mate

Speaker 9 i don't trust the bbc on anything anymore

Speaker 9 i can't believe it i can't believe this has happened what's he thinking there you've got your only ones mixed up yeah that's weird because that is that's a pretty that's one of the I can remember.

Speaker 11 That's one of the first football chants I can remember being aware of.

Speaker 2 There you are.

Speaker 9 But yeah, I'm still listening to it. It is good.

Speaker 2 I promise. So, how does it go?

Speaker 18 So, the first bit of that is.

Speaker 2 There's only one

Speaker 9 Tony Weirdo.

Speaker 2 There's only one Tony Weir.

Speaker 2 Walking along. Walk along.

Speaker 17 Singing a song.

Speaker 18 So you can see why he's got confused, but yeah. Come on, mate.
This is BBC Radio 4 we're talking about here.

Speaker 9 No. Show producers for this sort of thing.

Speaker 9 Next up, via Sanny Rujabadjulai, who has noticed what has become known via this podcast as the Ellis James crowd noise, appears in the title sequence of the BBC's Today at the Test.

Speaker 9 Listen very carefully at the start here.

Speaker 9 Dave, they are addicted to this sound. Like, there are so many other celebration sounds in the BBC database, even from the same game or from other generic football games.

Speaker 9 But why has Portsmouth versus Carlisle on the 6th of May 1985 become so widely used for cricket as well?

Speaker 9 But the saving grace for that is it does sound a little bit like someone appealing for a wicket and then the crowd sort of celebrating at the same time.

Speaker 18 Yeah, yeah, it kind of works nicely. And you're right.
It's like, why has this become so well used? Because it works.

Speaker 18 But if you go through the BBC's archive that's publicly available, like the sound archive, there are loads of different gold sounds you could use.

Speaker 9 It's not a precise thing, is it? It's not

Speaker 9 outlandishly perfect for this.

Speaker 18 Is there some sort of in-house directive that this is the one to use?

Speaker 18 Or do like the people that put this sort of stuff together, probably quite nerdy sort of people that listen to this sort of podcast, are they just like a single-shotted- Go and get the Portsmouth versus Carlisle?

Speaker 18 They all know it, so they all just it's just the go-to. Is it a superstition?

Speaker 9 If it ain't broke, well, Charlie, we shouldn't rule out that this this could well be like a running joke in the industry, right? They might say, go on, where can we sneak this sound effect in?

Speaker 9 I mean, they're not paying it. They're not paying for it.
So there's, it could be quite a frivolous thing that they're not, there's no, there's no victim here. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 13 Or is it just there?

Speaker 11 You know how sometimes if something's just in your default as your settings, you just don't really, you just get used to it.

Speaker 2 You're like, nah, sort of works.

Speaker 9 It could be a bit of that.

Speaker 18 I want to see, yeah, we should, we should keep our ears out for it now. Like, is it going to, does it actually pop up anywhere else? Is it, is it sneakily in the titles of Strictly or

Speaker 18 something like that?

Speaker 9 Sports personality of the year, just a coverall. I don't don't know.
Interested to see where else it pops up. Glastograph, it could be.
Potentially.

Speaker 2 Someone taking the stage.

Speaker 9 Right. Some listeners may remember this from January 2024.

Speaker 17 This was matched to the days Robin Cowan as Dominic Solanke single-handedly took care of Nottingham Forest before Christmas, evoking some classic Barry Davies.

Speaker 9 That's a brutiful header.

Speaker 9 Brutiful.

Speaker 17 As a result of that now, Charlie, brutiful should now be a fully-fledged football word.

Speaker 5 But what would brutiful mean?

Speaker 19 Brutiful. I mean, it's brilliant and beautiful, isn't it? Combined.
That's sort of the genesis of it.

Speaker 9 So, yeah, a slip of the tongue, maybe an intergenerational slip of the tongue. But here is Will Smith being asked on radio one extra about his infamous Oscars moment.

Speaker 27 What does making a mistake in front of the world?

Speaker 6 How do you handle that? It's brutal. It's brutal.
It's brutal. But beautiful.

Speaker 9 Barry Davis, Robbie Cowan, Will Smith.

Speaker 2 Together again.

Speaker 18 Well, Barry Davies, where was Barry Davis for the Oscars moment?

Speaker 9 Who cares?

Speaker 2 Frankly, who cares?

Speaker 18 Just look at his face. If ever we needed it, that was the moment.

Speaker 2 That's nice from Will Smith.

Speaker 9 Yeah, that word, it's taking off. It's definitely a thing, Charlie.
We could start using it.

Speaker 2 Brutiful.

Speaker 9 Brutiful.

Speaker 18 Will Smith's appearing in all sorts of places these days. He's doing this weird talk.
He's playing a show in Scarborough. What?

Speaker 18 Which suggests to me that he, you know, he's very much in the mood to publicise his wares as much as he can.

Speaker 9 Get him as a support actor, the old rep in Birmingham maybe.

Speaker 18 Well, could we get him on MHD, but who knows?

Speaker 9 Ah, dread to think. He'd be like Tom Cruise on Beckham and Friends all over again, wouldn't it? Wow.
Yep. Right.
Transfer silly season continues in the most mundane way, Dave.

Speaker 9 Wickham Wanderers tweeted. We're delighted to announce the capture of Northern Irish midfielder Keelan Boyd Muntz following his exit from St Mirren in the Scottish Premiership.
Philip McPeak says

Speaker 9 Official club tweet announcing the capture of a player. Are we having this? Not sure I am.

Speaker 18 How do you feel about this sort of transfer speak creeping in is it a completely unnecessary word to use yeah it's it's strange i mean it almost sounds like um no you could imagine a u.sid announcing the capture yeah i was gonna say they have actually captured this guy

Speaker 9 high-profile uh terrorist or something uh which yeah it's a bit weird i mean it is it's a very subtle form of transfer speak charlie i mean it it doesn't really sex up the transfer in any particular way does it unless they unless he was moved against his will i don't know

Speaker 11 which is the last thing you want to be uh suggesting suggesting about a new signing.

Speaker 2 I think people often they just,

Speaker 11 especially if you're talking a lot about transfers or whatever, you're just like you want to spice it up and vary it and use different words, and you don't really think about the different meanings and connotations.

Speaker 9 Pen to paper and a new contract? I'm all right with it. I'm all right with pen to paper.
If it absolutely has to exist, I can live with it. But I don't think capture's needed here.
So I worry.

Speaker 9 I worry about what's going to happen for the next couple of months, Dave.

Speaker 18 Has there been a particularly sort of protracted, high-profile pursuit of this player? Have there been a number of teams

Speaker 18 on his trail?

Speaker 11 I don't know. Well, I was trying to think that.

Speaker 21 Like, when would capture...

Speaker 11 Presumably, like, Forrest signing to be a capture, presumably...

Speaker 18 Well, yeah, I guess it is.

Speaker 11 Is it against his will or is it against the club that are sort of keeping him?

Speaker 9 Maybe it's a result of a hijack. They hijacked him, then captured him.

Speaker 11 Yeah, there needs to be an element of resistance in there, doesn't it? For it to be...

Speaker 11 for capture to really work.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I've never said, I'd have to say, I don't think I've ever seen it before. In an official club tweet, so concerns.

Speaker 18 I saw one the other day on a similar sort of note. I think it was Nottingham Forest when Nuno signed his new contract.
Their official tweet was Evangelos Maranakis has handed Nuno

Speaker 9 a three and a half year contract extension or whatever, which is well, I mean, again, that's definitely newspaper speak creeping in, but also Maranakis putting himself front and centre, I think, at club communications.

Speaker 9 Right, next up, this came from Leighton Pierce and also Matthew Hall, who wrote in, hi, Adam.

Speaker 9 As someone who knows a thing or two about TV listings and EPGs, are you able to adjudicate on Channel 4's usage of the format on the 12th of June?

Speaker 9 It's innovative and fresh, or is it too knowingly egregious? Maybe it's a bit of both.

Speaker 9 So what happened, Dave, was, uh on that day's schedules of things like Frazier, Place in the Sun, Ramsey's 24 Hours to Helenbach, they inserted references to England's opening Euro under 21 game that evening on Channel 4.

Speaker 9 Let me give you an example, Frasier. Frazier and Martin discover they were both cheated on by their wives.

Speaker 9 Presumably ref Elchin Matiev will keep a close eye on any cheating in England's opening game at the under 21 Euro tonight. This is nonsense.
This wouldn't have happened in my day.

Speaker 18 I was going to say, would you have done this back in your EPG era?

Speaker 9 Never worked on Channel 4. That was one of the sort of blue-ribboned sort of jobs and contracts we had.
I was more of a sports guy, but turns out worlds can collide here.

Speaker 9 So, but yeah, Charlie, this is ham-fisted.

Speaker 13 It's funny that they've done it for this.

Speaker 18 I mean, that it's because it's not like a huge...

Speaker 11 If it was like the start of the World Cup or something. Yeah.

Speaker 18 Yeah, it might that might be um they don't get many rights channel four i suppose you got to try and enjoy it while you're yeah true i mean i don't mind it and they they they really did they really did commit to this they i mean the literal the whole output across the day there was there was something in every single programme so a place in the sun sharon and brendan from east sussex want a home near lake garder another east sussex resident brighton star jack hinchelwood is also hoping for success in europe at the euro under 21 euro tonight they've had to do some research at least a little bit clunky but forget about forget about the the actual deployment

Speaker 18 and the copy, which maybe could be a bit tighter. But I sort of admire the overall effort because it's subtle.

Speaker 18 Not many people are going to read this stuff. Not many people are going to see this in full.
So I like the fact that it's just hidden away there for just the people that stumble across it.

Speaker 9 Well, as the day unfolded, Charlie, these got less subtle. Here's countdown.
Here's a nine-letter word you shouldn't forget. Cresswell.

Speaker 9 The Toulouse defenders already won the under 21 Euros with England. Can he help the young lions to another when they kick off tonight? Just getting straight to it.

Speaker 18 He scored in the game, so hard to go.

Speaker 11 And then dedicated the goal to these listings.

Speaker 9 Glimey. But yeah, I suppose you've got to promote your stuff however you can.
And all eyeballs are going to be on those, I guess.

Speaker 9 Next up, Brad Jones, who, yes, does share his name with former Middlesbrough goalkeeper Brad Jones. You don't have to write in about that ever again.

Speaker 9 He just keeps sending these in, these excellent contributions. And how about this for a question?

Speaker 9 Charlie says, I'm just watching the Club World Cup out of intrigue for the golfing quality more than anything.

Speaker 9 And it got me thinking, what would it take for a player from another continent to be considered in the best player in the world conversation?

Speaker 9 Surely even 50 goals and all comps, Coppel Libertadores, every domestic trophy wouldn't be enough.

Speaker 9 Would they have to win the Club World Cup and play a big part in their country's World Cup win as well?

Speaker 19 Well I don't think the Club World Cup would do it because I think there'd still be question marks about this event.

Speaker 11 But yeah, I think they would have to do it in their country. I think they'd have to do it at a kind of, yeah, a major tournament like the World Cup.
I mean, which is bad.

Speaker 11 I mean, I guess it shows how Eurocentric we are or that the golf that exists, but I just can't, yeah, I can't imagine.

Speaker 11 It would just be all the talk about this player would just be, but they've got to go and move to Europe. Like, we don't know how good they are yet.

Speaker 18 The closest we've come in in sort of modern times, I mean, you can obviously go back to Pele or whatever, but like the closest we've come recently is Neymar.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 18 In 11, 12, and 13, in the Ballon d'Or rankings, he was in the top 10 or thereabouts whilst playing for Santos still. And there was a bit, you know, people knew about him.

Speaker 18 The move to Europe was always being talked about, but he was kind of, he was heralded as already being of a certain level. I think

Speaker 18 maybe he wasn't, didn't get anywhere in the ballon d'Or, but Carlos Teves a little bit as well when he was in Argentina and Brazil before he moved to Europe.

Speaker 18 I seem to remember people talking about him in similar sort of tones.

Speaker 2 Yeah, just but still so world class. Yeah.

Speaker 9 Let's break this down though. I mean first of all Charlie obviously Charlie we're talking about a player playing in South America here.
No other confederation is gonna scratch the surface here.

Speaker 9 But as Brad suggests you could do pretty much everything you could in South America scoring more than a goal a game winning the Copa Libertad Doris and it probably still wouldn't put you in the conversation.

Speaker 9 So let's set that aside. Your concerns over the Club World Cup Yes, you're right.

Speaker 9 It's not it's not an important enough competition in its own right yet, but it provides the camera opportunity a little bit a little bit like Messi winning the World Cup with Argentina.

Speaker 9 It still provides that kind of moment, which might sway things. But it would have to be, I think it would have to be a veteran player rather than an up-and-coming player.

Speaker 9 A player like Messi going back to South America and crowning his career. Then you've got that extra native.

Speaker 9 If he'd gone back to like Newell's Old Boys or something like that and done all of those things as Messi at the age of 35, 36, and then would he still have had to win the World Cup with Argentina as well?

Speaker 11 But that poses an interesting question anyway, of like, is Messi world class now? Or like, at what point does he stop being world class? You know, he's still

Speaker 11 famously, but you know, is do you lose the world classness as soon as you leave the top European league? Like, or are you always world class? Was Rooney always a world-class player?

Speaker 11 even when he was in MLS?

Speaker 9 But Messi wasn't the best player in the world when he won the Ballon Dora after Argentina won the World Cup, was he? So a bit of narrative can propel you to that, David. Yeah.

Speaker 9 You'd need a lot of narrative here, and it just it seems too big a gap to bridge, I would say.

Speaker 18 Yeah, I think it is. And if the Club World Cup goes as well as FIFA hope it could possibly go, and that in 10,

Speaker 18 15 years' time,

Speaker 18 it's elevated to a status where people genuinely care about it.

Speaker 18 And some of the South American and the clubs from all over the world are sort of their level somehow goes up and it becomes more of a thing.

Speaker 18 Maybe, like you say, maybe there would be slightly more reason for a top player to stay or to stay at a South American club or to go there a bit earlier than they would otherwise have done.

Speaker 2 But if you don't rule it out, it's still unlikely.

Speaker 11 But I think then, I think it would then reach the threshold of it would be a big talking point and a big debate that you'd have someone saying, like, well, how can he not be World Club?

Speaker 11 He's just gone and done it against the best teams in Europe.

Speaker 17 But then the counter being like, yeah, but he's got to do it consistently in Europe.

Speaker 11 We've not seen that from him. So I don't think it would be definitive.
It would at least create a discussion.

Speaker 9 And messy aside, you know, whilst he was a standout case in so many ways, the ballon d'Or does feel still like a pretty accurate reflection of who the best players in the world are.

Speaker 9 If you took that top ten, you're very unlikely to quibble with the people in there, maybe the order, but it's still a fair reflection of who the best players in the world are.

Speaker 9 So for now, we can rely on it as a good judge. But yeah, give it.
10, 15 years of solid club world cupping. You never know.
An interesting one for Brad Jones.

Speaker 9 Come back when it does happen and you'll be vindicated. Easy one for us perhaps next, Dave.

Speaker 9 Joe Brooke says, how many positions does a player need to play in in order to be a Swiss army knife of a player? Now, I really like this phrase. I really like it being deployed.

Speaker 9 I don't necessarily think it has to be an overtly versatile player like a Luis Enrique Championship Manager, DMA, RLC. I think it's more about roles and abilities rather than positions specifically.

Speaker 9 I mean, that's where football's going these days. It's not about positions.

Speaker 19 It's about roles.

Speaker 18 Yeah, it's sort of, it's not just somebody that can just play like centre-back and right-back or fill in one or the other.

Speaker 18 It's like being able to to do two different things that are two or three different things that are really different in the manner of a Swiss army knife.

Speaker 18 You've got the corkscrew, you've got the little nail clipper, you were made of the knife.

Speaker 9 They are one of the coolest things ever invented. But Charlie, let's take, I don't know, Philip Lahm, for example,

Speaker 9 who wasn't incredibly versatile, but did a couple of roles very well. I wouldn't call him a Swiss Army knife by any stretch.

Speaker 13 No, that's too...

Speaker 11 Yeah, he's got too few specialisms, I guess. Like you say, he's got a couple really nailed down.

Speaker 9 So who's Swiss Army knife these days? Who's fitting this?

Speaker 11 I'm trying to think, because you do, and I agree. I really like it as an expression.

Speaker 11 You hear it quite a lot.

Speaker 28 You hear it about...

Speaker 11 This might sound like an odd example in a way.

Speaker 11 Someone like Ben White as a right back is someone who can play as a kind of up and down overlappy right back, or he can play as a kind of tucked in right back, or he can play as just a, I'm going to sit and basically be a centre-back here.

Speaker 11 So it's kind of, or some there's even

Speaker 11 yeah but there's even the something like he's such a good ball player. Could he play as a midfielder type thing that used to get about like a David Louise or someone?

Speaker 11 But maybe that's maybe that's within one role too much.

Speaker 9 I would say so.

Speaker 9 I mean Dave how about Jude Bellingham for example who doesn't who doesn't play lots of different positions but he does seem to have this kind of slightly kind of nebulous footballing ability that you can't really classify.

Speaker 9 Like what's he overtly good at in comparison to all the other things that he's good at? So I would call him slightly Swiss Army knifey.

Speaker 9 Like, I would back him to sit in front of a defense if he absolutely had to, but then he does all these other things as well. It's got to the point, man, I'm actually baffled by what he does do.

Speaker 9 Is he actually any good? That's where I've got to with him.

Speaker 18 He's really good, but I know he scored a goal for Real Madrid in their most recent game, which was like a real proper strikers sort of take and finish.

Speaker 18 And he had that season two years ago where he kind of played up front for Real Madrid. But yeah, I think you're onto something with that.

Speaker 18 He does embody those sorts of qualities. I'm just really annoyed that David Aliver isn't Swiss.

Speaker 19 You've just googled that, haven't you?

Speaker 18 I just have to look at, oh, no, he's Austrian.

Speaker 9 Take me down.

Speaker 2 Close enough.

Speaker 11 But I feel like Bellingham's a bit too elite for that. Like, maybe that's something.

Speaker 2 Maybe I need to be more functional.

Speaker 9 Do you think it needs to be a more functional thing?

Speaker 11 A little bit, and I kind of associate it more with a sort of... a filling in.
You can do lots of different things, defensive, midfield.

Speaker 11 Bellingham's a bit too kind of a premium product, I think, to be a Swiss Army knife. This is a kind of like second, you know, because it's not like your main weapon or your main accessory.

Speaker 11 It's just like a, there's lots of different things to a reasonable standard.

Speaker 19 I think he's a bit too good for that.

Speaker 18 You're not cutting up any vegetables with your Swiss Army knife, I imagine.

Speaker 9 I mean, we're kind of drawn towards fullbacks in this day and age because they are so, you know, sort of forcibly moved into other situations, Dave.

Speaker 9 Like someone like Mark Kucarella, who is clearly a fullback by trade, but then gets pushed into midfield and he ends up sort of playing as number 10 almost in Chelsea's very strange system.

Speaker 9 But he needs to physically be able to do something other than looking like fullbacky things.

Speaker 9 If he's leaping high and winning headers in a sort of Thomas Suchek kind of way, then that would make him a Swiss Army knife. I'd need him to be taller, basically.

Speaker 9 If Mark Coquerella was 5'11, I think he'd have a good shout at this.

Speaker 18 You do need to be a bit taller, I think. For some reason,

Speaker 18 I'm not having any short Swiss Army knives.

Speaker 11 Could young Archie Gray at Spurs? I mean, he's played in in like every position

Speaker 11 and he seems to be just, he seems to be a bit like one of those kids who's just amazed who's like amazing at every sport and you can kind of just transpose them and they'll like, yeah, he's also a really good 800 meter runner and yeah, he's a good cricketer actually, Archie Gray as well.

Speaker 15 Not short.

Speaker 18 That helps. Not short.
So he can play, so he can play anywhere. They're something of a Swiss Army family, aren't they? The Greys.
Yeah. There's so many of them.
Yeah.

Speaker 11 Got everything there.

Speaker 9 Set of Swiss Army knives.

Speaker 9 You've got the whole site. Yeah, they're all the the same.
Yeah. No, I like this.
I mean, obviously, he was kind of forced into playing various positions last year, but

Speaker 9 clearly he's going to be asked to do that again in the next few years. Yeah.
They see him as a midfielder. Yeah.
Where you're like, to the point where you don't even know what his best position is.

Speaker 9 Yeah. Okay.
Well, that's the best shout so far. I like this a lot.
Right. That's it for part two.
We'll be back in a moment.

Speaker 9 Oh, look

Speaker 9 Welcome back to Football Clichés. This is the adjudication panel.
Now, here's this week's cast everything into doubt that you may ever have thought about this subject or not.

Speaker 9 It comes from Druiner on Reddit. And it's a question about passing range, Dave.

Speaker 9 When people reference a player's passing range, are they talking about the variety of passes in their locker, booming crossfield, through ball, short and precise, etc., or simply the distance that they can accurately pass the ball.

Speaker 9 I always thought it was the former to highlight someone's repertoire, but then all players described as having a brilliant passing range are more known for their long-distance passes.

Speaker 9 Skulls of Manchester, Pierlo, Beckham. You'd highlight Xavi Alonso's passing range, but never Xavi's or Iani Estes, even though you'd categorise all as amazing passers.
Alonso can just ping it.

Speaker 9 I've never really doubted my initial understanding, and now it's taking over my morning. I don't want to stay out of this.
I don't want to make a fool of myself.

Speaker 9 I don't know which one I would sensitively think.

Speaker 18 I think I've been under the impression that it's the latter, that it's it is a literally about your ability to go long or put the ball at whatever distance you want it to be. You can do it all.

Speaker 18 There's no pass that you haven't got. But actually, the way it's described there, I suppose it is a bit of both.
It's not just about pure distance. It is about technique and

Speaker 18 your variety. But that does make sense.

Speaker 9 But Charlie, let's think about his common usage. What if you think about a pundit commonly deploying it in their analysis?

Speaker 9 Are they talking about long-range long-range passes or are they talking about a variety of passes? Or third option, is it just that long passes grab the attention more and

Speaker 9 do add that texture to a passing range?

Speaker 11 I think it should be about what I've always thought it to mean and what I've always thought people mean is it's it's the range of their passing. Yes, it's the variety.

Speaker 11 It's the fact that, you know, he can go five yards, 10 yards, 20, 30. He can ping it.
He can play it short. That's what passing range would be.
And I would actually question that.

Speaker 11 I would say Jabbi Alonso, what I always loved about him he could play short passes but even short passes he'd play in a kind of amazing xiabi alonso type way where he'd sort of be fading it and like doing all this nice stuff i think part of it comes from as well an assumption that if you can ping a pass 40 50 yards you can probably play a short pass as well and you kind of make that assumption even though like paul scoles of manchester i kind of I'm sure people can't remember it, but they just think, I'm sure he can play a short pass.

Speaker 11 Why couldn't he? He could do everything else really well.

Speaker 9 Yeah, I think Scoles and Alonso are great examples of this, of players who you primarily think of as quite expansive in terms of their passing.

Speaker 9 They loved a crossfield ping, but both good touch players as well. So

Speaker 9 I'm really baffled by what I don't know. I don't know what I think about this.
I'm really troubled.

Speaker 11 But a good example of someone who doesn't have what I think of as a good passing range necessarily is Stephen Gerard, who obviously was synonymous with Hollywood passes. Right.

Speaker 11 And I think the accusation at him was that he doesn't have a great passing range because he can't do the short, simple stuff as well.

Speaker 9 But yeah, but could you chuck that in about Gerard and nobody would sort of bat an eyelid?

Speaker 9 He's got running power, he's got passing range, and people would just think, yeah, he hits cross-field passes.

Speaker 18 No, but like you say, Charlie, surely he... What do you mean he can't pass short?

Speaker 2 Surely he can, can't he? He did, didn't he? Did he not?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 9 25 yards. You're talking about sort of, you know, threaded between the lines.

Speaker 11 Yeah, a little bit, but even just the ability to do the metronomic Jabbi Alonso stuff of I'm going to play at five here, I'm going to get it back, I'm going to give you the ball, and then I'm going to get, you know, I don't think of Gerard, I feel he was too impatient.

Speaker 11 He'd just get it and be like, nah, well, I can see someone over there, I'm going to ping it. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9 The golden generation effect is like,

Speaker 9 we have to get rid of this ball upfield as soon as possible. Exactly.

Speaker 11 Whereas there is a skill for playing short passes and a lot of them.

Speaker 18 And actually, if you think about it, the slip moment is because he's cocked his leg back to try and do one of those Stephen Gerard style passes rather than just kind of that's his default position.

Speaker 18 As you think of Gerard getting the ball, taking that little touch out of his feet and looking up, and he's ready to ping one, whether that be 60 yards or 30 yards or whatever.

Speaker 18 But he's doing it in a certain way that eventually led to that moment.

Speaker 11 Yeah, if he had that passing range, that would never have happened.

Speaker 11 Could have just gone back to the keeper. You need that in your locker as well.

Speaker 9 I'm really, really glad they raised this. However, you say their name on Reddit.
Finally, it's arrived.

Speaker 9 The trailer for Saipan, the film about Roy Keen, Mick McCarthy, and Ireland's 2002 World Cup training camp has dropped. Here it is.

Speaker 2 Please do stay tuned. We'll get the latest news of this.

Speaker 29 There could be some sort of split in the camp.

Speaker 7 One thing everybody seems to be forgetting is that the team isn't a one-man show.

Speaker 2 And here's Roy Keene!

Speaker 29 What makes him a great player on the pitch makes him a pain in the ass off it?

Speaker 2 Roy Keene is not gone on.

Speaker 2 People are one side or another.

Speaker 7 Roy Keene's done nothing wrong.

Speaker 26 I feel he's letting his country.

Speaker 2 He can't be replaced.

Speaker 2 You're unmanageable.

Speaker 9 No, it's you that can't manage. That's the problem.

Speaker 2 I don't know if it's right.

Speaker 29 What a bad joke.

Speaker 20 He's the best player we have.

Speaker 2 You fucked up.

Speaker 10 Earthquake shook the nation.

Speaker 2 I don't think we're done.

Speaker 10 You have or tell me when we're done. I'm just getting stabbed.

Speaker 9 I mean, first of all, Dave, just to say broad observation about film trailers now, that film could be about anything. It could be like the next Godzilla film.

Speaker 9 The fact that it starts with some coordinates of where Saipan is. It's just like,

Speaker 2 yeah.

Speaker 18 And a shot of

Speaker 18 the bay or the

Speaker 18 seafront. Yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it could be.

Speaker 14 Kicks in.

Speaker 18 Feel a bit Godzillay.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 2 It looks good, though.

Speaker 18 Yeah, there's plenty of promise there. But there are also, for me, a few little alarm bells as well.
I think, first of all, I mean...

Speaker 18 Steve Coogan, as you'd expect, his Mick McCarthy accent sounds like it's going to be pretty spot-on.

Speaker 18 I think I do struggle a little bit with this, with anything that Coogan's in, just to not see Alan Partridge just visually, because

Speaker 18 that's just one of those things. But I'm sure he'll be really good.
If you haven't seen this, check it out.

Speaker 18 Aina Hardwick, who plays Roy Keene. We'll see what his performance is like in the whole film,

Speaker 18 in the full context. But

Speaker 18 he just looks a bit too tall and rangy. Like, he looks like a sort of modern centre-back.
He doesn't look like Roy Keene enough to me.

Speaker 9 He looks, Charlie. He looks like a fairly plausible footballer in a hardware in this film, but he looks like a Republic of Ireland international who also plays in the championship currently.

Speaker 11 Yeah, yeah, to the extent that when I, it took me a second after seeing it or the following scene to be like, oh, that was Roy Keen, right.

Speaker 11 Whereas obviously, yeah, because my football brain went to, yeah, that does look like a kind of slightly hard man.

Speaker 11 centre-back and obviously you know Mick McCarthy so well.

Speaker 11 I am excited like I agree with you Dave with Steve Coogan, but at the same time, Steve Coogan, it feels like quite a gift to have this incredibly talented person putting his talents towards like a football, a funny football moment from 2002.

Speaker 11 It's like, great.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 11 Please keep doing this. Do some like Keys and Greys stuff for our amusement.

Speaker 9 I'm excited to see where the humor does spill out in this film because it does have a humorous element, I'm led to believe. Steve Coogan's Mick McCarthy, then, Dave, the voice,

Speaker 9 only a little glimpse of it in the trailer. The voice is a solid eight out of ten at least.
Looks-wise, they haven't really gone to town on it, which is probably good.

Speaker 9 There's no prosthetic nose, there's like they've given him grey hair, it's slicked back a bit. Um, that's as much McCarthy as they've needed to do to him.

Speaker 18 Yeah, that's fine.

Speaker 18 I think we'll probably be able to suspend our disbelief. I think if his accent and mannerisms are as good as we expect them to be, I'll probably be fine.

Speaker 18 There was a tantalizing little glimpse in the trailer of a shot of it's only there for like half a second.

Speaker 18 It's McCarthy, his two coaches and the most of the squad sort of sitting around the dinner table.

Speaker 18 And I was going through it trying to kind of pick out who I thought which player was, but they all look quite similar.

Speaker 2 So I'm not quite sure.

Speaker 9 One slightly Gary Breeny looking guy. The rest of them, I wouldn't be able to pick.
No Lee Carsley, very annoying. I've been cut out.

Speaker 2 That's annoying.

Speaker 9 But

Speaker 9 it looks slick, Charlie.

Speaker 9 I would definitely go and watch this at the cinema, I think.

Speaker 18 Oh, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 12 We should be at the premiere.

Speaker 9 Yeah, we should be.

Speaker 11 I'm looking forward to the sequel about Gary Breen's aborted move to enter.

Speaker 9 Saipan 2.

Speaker 2 The return of Gary Breen. Gary Breen's revenge.

Speaker 13 I've actually been watching, re-watching The Trip recently.

Speaker 19 New series out.

Speaker 9 Coogan. All right, Rest is Entertainment.

Speaker 18 They start talking about football at one point, and he says he doesn't like football.

Speaker 14 So maybe that rules him out.

Speaker 18 for an MHD. And I hope that doesn't bleed into his, you know, let his performance down in any way.

Speaker 11 That'll be the thing that rules him out of it. Yeah, you need to be able to get somebody.

Speaker 9 There's got to be somebody to play a football right now.

Speaker 18 There's got to be somebody from this film that we can get on as an MHD. It has to be.

Speaker 14 Hardwick. Maybe Hardwick's a big football fan, hopefully.

Speaker 9 His delivery of Keene's lines is quite good.

Speaker 9 That sort of sneer that he's got.

Speaker 18 Yeah, the accent was quite good. Yeah.

Speaker 17 Well, you'd hope so, wouldn't you?

Speaker 9 So, yeah, looking forward to this. The information just leaks out about this gradually.
It's fantastic. Thanks to you, David Walker.
Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare. Thank you.

Speaker 9 Thanks to everyone for listening. Get your voice notes in for the listeners' mezza Haaland Dicks this week.
And we'll see you then.

Speaker 15 Bye-bye.

Speaker 28 Verbo's last-minute deals make chasing fresh mountain powder incredibly easy. With thousands of homes close to the slopes, you can get Epic POW, Freshies, First Tracks, and more.

Speaker 28 Find last-minute deals with the last-minute filter on the app. Book a private vacation rental now at Verbo.com.