”The most involved-goals man", Swiss Army knives & watching the Roy Keane film trailer

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as as you like.

Is Gas going to have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I think

he's round the goalkeeper.

He's done it.

Absolutely incredible.

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and kung fu kicked a supporter who was

without a shadow of a doubt giving him lip.

Oh, I say

it's amazing.

He does it

Has the Club World Cup met the burst into life threshold?

Is Angheldi Maria the most plausible member of any of the 32 squads?

Ref Cam's inevitable move to the Premier League?

What hybrid word links Barry Davis, Robin Cowan, and Will Smith?

Slightly desperate football references in Channel 4 TV listings?

What would it take for a player outside of Europe to win the ballon d'Or?

Swiss Army knives, passing ranges, and the first glimpse of Steve Coogan's big screen Mick McCarthy.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés.

Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry.

Alongside me for this one, Charlie Eccleshe, how you doing?

Very well, thank you.

And David Walker, how are you?

I'm good.

Coping with the heat, Charlie?

I'm roasting in this little room, I have to say.

Yeah, I am.

I had a real,

I felt like a sort of a goalkeeper or a manager the other day.

I was leaving the house and on the first floor, it was so hot, and the house gets so hot.

On the first floor, looking out onto the road, there were windows.

And I was like, do I close them?

I was like, I'm just going to leave them open.

And then if we get burgled, you've just got to put your hands up and say, too good.

I mean, if they're, do you know what I mean?

If they're scaling the walls in plain sight, then fair play to them.

Like,

there's not a lot more we could have done, really.

I'll raise you on that one.

It was the 1950s around my area recently.

We went to see my mum and dad and came back and realised I'd left the front door wide open.

So it turns out you can do it.

Fantastic.

I felt right, Maverick.

Right, by now, subscribers to Dreamland will have discovered that episode two of Dreamland is out now.

How football ranked itself blind.

Our voyage day into the inane and mundane football content machine.

We had an amazing amount of fun with this one.

And it turned out to be a little bit narrower than we expected.

You can't really cover the whole football content landscape in one go, can you?

You certainly can't.

No, we might have to do a follow-up episode at some point in the future.

But we delved into the world of blind rankings, of winner's days on, head-to-head, little videos,

combined 11s, all-time 11s.

I have to give Dave the big shout-out.

He unearthed some unbelievable stuff for this.

So yeah, some great blind ranking montage type material.

Contains an all-timer of a montage.

So if if you're interested in that, go to dreamland.football clichés.com to get involved.

For just $5.99 a month, you get ad-free listening to all of our episodes, two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive new show.

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We got some in the pipeline for the southwest and the northeast.

So stay tuned for details on that.

And also, you get exclusive discounts on merchandise, which we will get around to sorting soon as well.

Meanwhile, clichés live in 2025.

I I can tell you that Leeds is sold out.

Good old Leeds.

Leeds has gone from our lowest point to never letting us down.

Dave, love Leeds.

They're the happiest of hunting grounds for us these days,

and closely followed by Glasgow, which is which is hot on its tail in terms of the ticket sales.

Yeah, get them while you can in all the other places.

I do like the sort of cryptic vagueness you have around quiz events in the pipeline for the southwest and the northeast.

I mean, it's Bristol and Newcastle.

We can say that.

It's not going to be like Darlington and, you know, somewhere in Gloucester.

Oh, dear.

Tintagl, we're going to.

Right.

Yeah.

Hopefully details will emerge of that.

Charlie Sinex will say that those two venues are nearly sold out because they're the smallest venues of the tour.

But no, no.

Most intense venues of the tour, if anything.

Yeah, far from it.

No, that's great.

I mean, Leeds, I feel humbled that even after that first show, they're, you know.

I guess we made up for it last time, didn't we?

Yeah, tickets selling really well elsewhere.

Right, adjudication panel time.

This first one comes from Robert McMenzie.

He was watching co-commentator Glenn Murray describe Denmark's opening goal against France in the under-21 Euros quarter-final.

Once this ball arrives at Bishop's feet, he has no hesitation, laces through it, pure power, leaves the goalkeeper rest with absolutely no chance.

It's a wonderful finish.

Top corner, eat your heart out.

No one knows what eat your heart out means anymore, Charlie.

What's going on?

We had Pedro Porrow eating his own heart out in preseason last season, and now the top corner is being instructed to eat his heart out.

I assume.

I don't know what's going on.

Do you think it's a menabia going to pick that one out?

Yes.

Take your hat off.

Yeah.

Been mangled.

Yeah, I do like that.

Oh, dear.

No, I don't think we've got any idea of what really was going on there.

But the real main event, of course, this summer is the Club World Cup.

Now, Charlie,

your cynicism at that, the Club World Cup, is well documented.

As is my allegedly corrosion enthusiasm for it.

But yes, I'm telling you, it's burst into life.

Boca 2, Benfica 2, Man Each sent off for those.

Real Madrid being held by Al Hillal into Miami 2, Porto 1.

PSG losing to Botofogo.

10-man Chelsea collapsing against Flamengo.

Barusio Dortmund 4.

Mamalodi Sundowns 3.

And chief football correspondents whinging about Uber prices and partisan foreign journalists in the press box.

What more could you want?

It's bursting to life.

Was this the moment that it came alive?

you watched any of it bits and pieces i actually started watching a bit i watched a bit of that rail madrid al-halal match um i i didn't watch all of it no i i have watched some and you know i i i never said it wouldn't be you know kind of reasonably entertaining and uh um yeah so it's probably met that bar i actually thought i would get into it more than i have done you know i was kind of more along aligned with you adam before the tournament about being open-minded about it and seeing potential for some um interesting stuff but i've I have really struggled to be interested in it.

I've watched a few bits here and there.

I don't know.

As we spoke about before, the aesthetic of it is troubling me.

I just can't quite take it seriously.

It just looks pre-season-y, and it just, something in me just can't quite, there's no gravitas to what I'm seeing.

It doesn't help that the time difference means that that's all you're seeing.

Like you're not seeing live, you're not seeing evening games live, which does kind of skew it a bit.

Yeah, it's not.

You're only seeing the kind of daytime slow stuff.

Yeah, Yeah, it's not under the lights.

And, you know, all the talk about the temperatures and the conditions in which they're playing, actually, they elevate my feeling of, oh my God, that looks knackering, which is never good for footballing spectacles.

So I think that adds to the pre-seasonness as well.

But, Dave, I think we can all agree that RefCam, this sort of broadcasting innovation that's really been unleashed on the Club World Cup, is here to stay and is brilliant.

Like, it's clearly destined for the Premier League.

Like, I mean, we're already sort of close to the bottom of the current barrel for broadcasting innovations.

So they're going to be snapping this right up, I think.

They should do as well, because it really does help the referee's case in terms of how difficult it is to see stuff in real time and from their vantage point.

And it's good as well, because it drops you right into the match, but

it's better than when they did the player cam on, was it in the Aston Villa games?

Yeah, it was Tieleman's.

That's right, yeah.

And

all you could see then, or you could focus on with that, with the weird arms.

Yeah, pumping arms.

It's really odd.

So it's better to have it from the ref's point of view because you're just that little bit removed and you can sort of see everything.

I, yeah, I do think it's good.

The PGMOL should be all over it.

Well, you're right, exactly.

I mean, this would be a far more commendable case than getting Howard Webb and Michael Owen to pour over some clips.

Just show them this.

Be like, no, it's fucking quick.

You try it.

Even for the lads in Stockley Park.

Yeah, sort of reminiscent of the kind of Met Police putting out some body cam footage, though, isn't it?

After the event.

Look, there's been some unexpected.

You want to do it?

Yeah.

There's been some unexpected unexpected discoveries from this.

The referee during Realm Ridge Pachuca, getting his red card out, held the red card from the top left corner, Charlie, to brandish it.

Like he was holding up a Polaroid for someone to check.

It looked really weird.

Just shaking it around.

It was very jarring.

And on ref cam, it just looked even worse.

But yeah, I think we're definitely going to see that in the Premier League within the next year or two.

This is great from De Puisla.

Dave, he says, I just heard that Angel Di Maria is playing in the Benfiga versus Boca Jr.'s game, and I wasn't sure which side he was playing for.

Is he the player who could feasibly play for the most club World Cup sides?

And if not, who is?

I mean, this could be spot on.

I mean, it has to be a South American player because South American players lend themselves to pretty much all the confederations, I would say, most.

Yeah, I think he probably is.

There are a few other candidates because there are, if you look through the lineups, and I think they have to kind of be, to meet this threshold, I think they need to be in that sort of mid to late 30s bracket as well in that they could maybe that rules them out playing for the top clubs.

But Dinaria, you know, could feasibly still kind of be a squad player at one of the elite clubs, just sort of not like in the way that Modric was still at Real Madrid, you know, at that age.

You know, you could still be hanging around at PSG, perhaps.

So I think he kind of does tick all the boxes, but there are a few others.

Looking through the squads, actually, I was surprised at some of the names that I saw, which kind of again gives it a little bit of that sort of World Cup feel where you go, oh, he's still playing.

Oh, that guy's still playing.

So

Sergio Ramos is playing for Monterrey, uh, which I had no idea that he was, that's where he was playing.

But these.

Salamon Rondon at Pacheco.

Yeah, Rondon's there, but even sort of lesser Brazilians like Alex Telles and Felipe Anderson.

I think they

could be in MLS.

They could be, they could be in South America like they are.

They could be knocking about one of the sort of second-tier European clubs at Porto or something.

So, yeah, there are a couple of candidates.

One of the players I thought actually isn't, I don't think he's actually playing at the Club World Cup, but I was thinking Jamez Rodriguez.

He, for me, like, because he, he sort of done the Porto thing.

He was there, wasn't he?

And then he's, you know, obviously he's done for, he's played for Real Madrid.

But I could sort of, I could definitely see him in MLS or I could see him in Saudi.

I could see him back in South America.

It also wouldn't amaze me if it was like, no, he's actually, you know, in the kind of Mikatarian style.

No, he's actually, you know, still quite good, actually.

And he's playing for Juventus as a squad player, kind of, you know, that sort of level.

I mean, Mikatarian, if he wasn't playing for Inter, you'd be like, he's still playing for an elite club.

He could just as easily be playing in Qatar.

Like a third wind, yeah.

Charlie, you're on the money here because James Rodriguez currently plays for Club Leon in Mexico,

the team that got booted out just before the tournament started because of dual ownership.

God, he should be there.

They should be able to loan him out somewhere for the tournament.

He's also so FIFA.

He's just like, you know, he's such like a kind of World Cup man.

Great to see Charlie's logic being dragged back just to the last there.

That's tremendous.

Solomon Rondon was probably a good shout as well.

I think Auckland City kind of ruined this.

None of these players could feasibly play for Auckland City unless they had a stake in the club or something like that.

But a bit far-fetched.

But yeah, Di Maria, good shout.

Next up, this came from Housemaster.

A moment of healthy uncertainty for Dezone commentator Rich Wolfenden during Real Madrid versus Al Hillal.

Here's Kulavali.

Al Hillal looking to build on that disallowed goal.

He He can do such a thing.

I think of it savage.

Charlie, can you build on a disallowed goal?

It's a very relatable doubt that he has there.

I mean, often it's sort of the other way.

It works the other way around, that the other team gets a bit of a lift from the

warning, boys, you know.

Yeah, we've got away with one slightly there.

But, Dave, marginal off sides aside, or, you know, minor infractions aside, it's proved that you can break the other team's back line.

You should be buoyed by a disallowed goal, shouldn't you?

I think think it does depend on what kind of disallowed goal it is, because there are some which are obviously would never have like the play has kind of stopped and the other defenders have stopped because they know that it's obviously obviously offside or whatever.

The ref hasn't blown yet.

But there are some increasingly, obviously, in the VAR age where the play is full pace all the way through and then you get a late flag or whatever.

So I think you can build on that.

It can, yeah, it can give you some momentum, I suppose.

Yeah, I feel like you try to, don't you?

But in your head, you're a bit like, oh, it's really annoying.

We've got this out.

It doesn't change any boys.

Like, you know, we've shown we can get through them, but you're also like, oh, is that our one chance to scoring?

It's coming, boys.

It's already come in a way.

Rich Wolfenden, you have been vindicated.

Elsewhere, Leonel Messi scoring that free kick for Into Miami against Porto, Dave.

Does that now put him firmly into his still got it phase of his career?

Which I'm quite sad about.

I'm sad to see Leonard Messi get to such an age.

I want him to stick around for as long as possible, but are we now in a kind of retrospective part of consuming Leonor Messi?

I'm not sure.

The whole MLS sort of spell,

it's a bit strange, and there is the obvious contrast with Ronaldo in Saudi, and you're constantly still sort of weighing them up.

And it's kind of how much of a retirement kind of PR sort of exercise is this, or how much is Messi actually going out there every week and putting in 100% and scoring goals?

And his goals record is good for into Miami, and they've, you know, they've had some success.

And yeah, I mean, I mean, perhaps this isn't a marker for it.

I saw someone, I can't remember who it was, but somebody on talk sport over the weekend was suggesting that Messi should sign for Arsenal and

win them the Premier League.

We need to know who this was.

It doesn't sound like O'Hara, it doesn't sound like Cundy McKay.

But I think, Adam, that's a authentic one in the eye for those who are saying you're a kind of on the FIFA payroll, because I think the FIFA masters would be trying to claim that Messi's in the showing no signs of slowing down phase.

I'm glad you mentioned showing no signs of slowing down.

He is quite literally showing signs of slowing down.

I mean, that's widely established that he is, you know, he is strolling around even more than ever.

And his little legs look a little harder work for him in his late 30s.

So I don't know.

But I think that would be the message.

You know, that would be the message that the Club World Cup and MLS are trying to put out.

That, look, Messi's, he's just as good as he ever was.

Yeah.

You know, he's still scoring free kicks and big moments.

I just don't want to see the phrase still got it attached to him just

yet.

I mean, we've already had rolling back the years as well, Dave, which I think is a softer way of saying a player is past their prime.

I think it's okay to say that.

But should still got it be reserved for when you retired?

Yeah, well worth that.

Yeah, because that's quite a manager doing it on the sidelines, isn't it?

Or a testimonial thing.

Stephen Gerrard will go and score an amazing goal in whatever legends match is happening and field and it'll be be a still got it.

Also, you know, if we were being really pinnickety about it, Messi's going to be bending free kicks into the opposite side of the net to where the goal is standing until he's about 60.

I back him to do it.

I really, it's more dribbling that really if he stops doing that, then I guess this really is all over.

Next up, this came from Helpful Sock 6199 on Reddit.

Here's Dusan Vlavic entering the fray for Juventus against Moroccan outfit Weedad.

Vlavic uses a substitute as well against

Alin

most

involved goals man of 24-25

20 of them 15 goals five assists

Charlie I've got a lot of sympathy with commentator Mike Minay here uh goal involvement is is already established as pretty clunky even before you try and turn it into an adjective so most involved goals man

What a brilliant way of putting it.

I like that he quickly moves to clarify what the hell he's talking about with the 20 and the 15 plus 5.

Um, it does sound most involved goals, man.

It does sound that sort of thing we'd come up with when coming up with a hypothetical descriptor for this.

Most involved goals, man.

Yeah.

Could we tweak this into something a little bit more sensible?

I mean, uh, most goal-involved man.

Uh, most goal involved, man, yeah.

Most goal involved man, most goal-involved man.

That says, I don't know.

There's there's there's no there's no i mean it's about martin tyler isn't it there was a sort of coal man goal man thing he did a few years ago it sounds a bit like that because i mean it's not that you talk about the most the most goal man or the biggest goal man for the the guy who scored the most goals would you be happy with a goal involvement machine dave

yes yes

that's that's surely coming

goal involvement machine oh but this could work everything he touches turns to goal involvement

right um this came from Matthew Robinson over on the US coverage.

Here is Alex Scott pulling Paul Robinson up on his thoughts on Ruben Nevers' penalty for Al-Hillel against Real Madrid.

Wait, Paul, I just need to bring this back because you said that penalty never in doubt.

I swear when we're all sitting in the green room, he was like, I don't fancy Nevis.

I don't fancy Nevers.

But the way he took it, it was never in doubt.

Okay, okay.

When we're back there and I'll watch it and I'm thinking, hmm, don't fancy him.

He took it with a lot of composure.

Okay.

People at home might believe you, but I don't know.

It might be in the studio.

Dave, what a case study this is to separate never in doubt and never fancied him for it.

I mean,

so Robinson's suggestion here is that he did fancy him, but then once he'd taken the penalty, it was never in doubt.

He can't do that.

For that split second when he made contact with the ball before it went in, it was never in doubt.

You can't post-rationalize it like that.

You've got to commit to it.

Unless you're suggesting it was never in doubt for the way the player hit it made it look as if it was ever in doubt for them.

yes i'm being a bit sneaky here what paul rummers is actually saying charlie is that he was never in doubt the way that neves sort of stepped up to the penalty he didn't fancy him before it he didn't fancy the concept of ruben never's taking penalty and why would why wouldn't you fancy him he's just scored he's got the winning penalty in the nations league final didn't he for a start so why wouldn't you fancy him for this and then and then at what point can the cutoff begin between that and never in doubt i mean it does tap in something because I don't know about you guys.

When I watch a penalty shootout, I can't help but fight the urge and guess either out loud or in my head where they're going to put it, whether it's going to be saved, how you know,

how convincing they are.

And I'm just trying to think if I if I ever do change my mind.

I think maybe you do.

You're like, do you know what?

I actually think he's going to score.

Like, having thought in theory that this is someone who should be,

you're like, you watch a supercomputer with every step.

Oh, 69%.

Yeah, yeah.

74%.

Constantly calibrating.

I think this is a thing.

Like,

we've spoken about the sort of evolution of penalty shootouts before.

In general,

whether this is borne out statistically or not, it definitely feels like the average standard of penalties is much higher these days than it was, right?

And I think that that sometimes means that

there is still the impulse for us to look at someone and go, ooh, don't fancy him, looks a bit nervous.

But then they don't follow through with that as much.

They do look nervous sometimes, but then they still just go and smash it top corner.

So we're a bit confused as to what we should feel.

Yeah, and I think it's complicated, Charlie, but I think there's a greater range of penalties these days.

So a player who might look ungainly or not able to take the sort of penalty that will be good in our eyes will take another form of penalty is actually really effortless.

And then it has to make, that forces you to recalibrate what never in doubt actually means.

Yeah.

Take, for example, Dean Houseon.

If he was stepping up for a penalty, he's big, he's tall, his socks are rolled down, he's a centre-back.

Traditionally, you wouldn't back him, but obviously he is going to stroke that ball home.

Yeah, or there, or you'd think previously there's only one option for that big centre-back, and that's they're just going to smash it.

Yeah.

But you're right now, they're so multifaceted.

But I need an answer on this, Charlie.

Like, what is the cut-off point for you to be able to confidently say never in doubt?

How retrospectively can you go?

I mean, you'd never say both.

You can't say both, obviously, because you look silly.

But at what point can Never in Doubt actually kick in?

The run-up?

Yeah, I was going to say, I think they need to be doing the run-up like i don't think how much can you glean from that really but to actually as they're about to strike the ball like what's changed unless you're such a technical expert that like oh yeah i thought he was going to bottle it but actually seeing the way he pulled his leg back at that moment i just i just knew that it was minimal back now yeah i think realistically for for the lay person right you can't you you've got to be making your call by the time they're running up because that's when that's when you sort of have your sense of like do they look confident?

Do they look like they want to be there?

Are they shitting themselves?

Well, I mean, this conversation alone, Dave, I think justifies Alex Scott's intervention there because one, it was an overall quite a light-hearted exchange, but you sensed a little bit in Paul Rom saying, oh, don't pick me up on that.

What are you saying?

It was just something you say.

Tough, mate.

Yeah.

Right, that's it for part one.

We'll be back very shortly.

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze.

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Welcome back to Football Clichés.

This is the Adjudication Panel.

By the way, Thursday's episode this week will be this month's Listeners Mezza Harlan Dicks, where we're going to feature your niche footballing fascinations and obscure, irrational footballing irritations.

To get involved, send me a 30-second voice note, either as a Twitter DM or an Insta DM, or to football cliches at gmail.com.

We'll select the best half dozen to pick apart on Thursday's pod.

As always, Dave, we want them to be original, but not too weird, not ridiculously weird.

It's a bit of a high wire act.

It is.

I mean, every now and again, we'll let the odd, really weird one through.

So don't let that put you off.

No, okay.

Yeah, you know, just keep it

from the heart.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, I was, Charlie, I was trying to think of some that I was going to ask for a sort of moratorium on and say, please don't send this one in again, but it feels mean, so I'm not going to do that anymore.

No, just send them in.

And we'll see what happens.

It's a numbers game.

There will be six.

There'll definitely be six.

So

don't be perturbed.

Don't be dissuaded.

Send in your 30-second voice note with your football fetish.

Either good or bad.

Right, next up, this came from Kunal Shah.

He says, After hearing you guys laugh at the rendition of there's only one Jeff Erst in the last episode, I then listened to BBC Radio 4's documentary, Here We Go, The Art of the Football Chant, in which sociology professor Les Back does a deep dive into football chanting and support to culture.

It's a decent listen until it falls apart when Les tries to recreate the chant for ex-Millwall defender Tony Witter.

And you had your own song.

I think it was just at Christmas period.

It actually started.

That's right.

And then they carried it on.

And I was playing well, and the team wasn't playing too badly.

And they latched onto it and they took it as their little welcome to Millwall and Tony Witter, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

So it was to the tune of Bing Crosby's Winter Wonderland.

There's only one Tony Witter.

There's only one Tony Witter walking along, singing a song, walking in a Witter Wonderland.

Liz, this is basics.

Come on, mate.

I don't trust the BBC on anything anymore.

I can't believe it.

I can't believe this has happened.

What's he thinking there?

You've got your only ones mixed up.

Yeah, that's weird because that is, that's a pretty...

That's one of the first football chants I can remember being aware of.

There you are.

But yeah, still listen to it.

It is good.

I promise.

So how does it go?

So the first bit of that is...

There's only one

Tony Whitsucker.

There's only one Tony Whitsup.

Walking along.

Singing a song.

So you can see why he's got confused, but yeah.

Come on, mate.

This is BBC Radio 4 we're talking about here.

No.

Share producers for this sort of thing.

Next up, via Sanny Rujavadjilai, who has noticed what has become known via this podcast as the Ellis James crowd noise, appears in the title sequence of the BBC's Today at the Test.

Listen very carefully at the start here.

Dave, they are addicted to this sound.

Like, there are so many other celebration sounds in the BBC database, even from the same game or from other generic football games.

But why has Portsmouth versus Carlisle on the 6th of May 1985 become so widely used for cricket as well?

But the saving grace for for that is it does sound a little bit like someone appealing for a wicket and then the crowd sort of celebrating at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, it kind of works nicely.

And you're right.

It's like, why has this become so well used?

Because it works, but if you go through the BBC's archive that's publicly available...

like the sound archive, there are loads of different gold sounds you could use.

It's not a precise thing, is it?

It's not, you know, outlandishly perfect for this.

Is there some sort of in-house directive that this is the one to use?

Or do like the people that put this sort of stuff together probably quite nerdy sort of people that listen to this sort of podcast are they go and get the portsmith versus carlisle

they all know it so they all just it's just the go-to is it a superstition if it ain't broke well chariot we shouldn't rule out that this this could well be like a running joke in the industry right they might say go on where can we sneak this sound effect in i mean they're not paying it they're not paying for it so there's it could be quite a frivolous thing that they're not there's no there's no victim here that's what i'm saying or is it just there you know how sometimes if something's just in your default as your your settings you just don't really you just get used to it you're like

sort of works it could be a bit of that i want to yeah we should we should keep our uh our ears out for it now like is it gonna does it actually pop up anywhere else is it is it sneakily in the titles of strictly or or or something like that sports personality of the year just a cover all i don't know interested to see where else it pops up glastogue it could be potentially

someone taking the stage

right some listeners may remember this from january 2024.

This was matched to the days Robin Cowan, as Dominic Solanke single-handedly took care of Nottingham Forest before Christmas, evoking some classic Barry Davies.

That's a brutiful header!

As a result of that, now, Charlie, brutiful should now be a fully-fledged football word.

But what would brutiful mean?

Brutiful.

I mean, it's brilliant and beautiful, isn't it?

Combined.

That's sort of the genesis of it.

So, yeah, a slip of the tongue, maybe an intergenerational slip of the tongue.

But here is Will Smith being asked on radio one extra about his infamous Oscars moment.

What does making a mistake in front of the world?

How do you handle that?

It's brutal.

It's brutal.

It's brutal, but beautiful.

Barry Davis, Robin Cowan, Will Smith.

Together again.

Well, Barry Davies, where was Barry Davis for the Oscars moment?

Who cares?

Frankly, who cares?

Just look at his face.

If ever we needed it, that was the moment.

That's nice from Will Smith.

Yeah, that word is taking off.

It's definitely a thing, Charlie.

We could start using it.

Brutiful.

Brutiful.

Will Smith's appearing in all sorts of places these days.

He's doing this weird tour.

He's playing a show in Scarborough.

What?

Which suggests to me that he, you know, he's very much in the mood to publicise his wares as much as he can.

So.

Get him as the support actor, the old rep in Birmingham, maybe?

Well, could we get him on MHD, but who knows?

Ah, dread to think.

He'd be like Tom Cruise on Beckham and Friends all over again, wouldn't it?

Wow.

Yep.

Right, Transfer Silly Season continues in the most mundane way, Dave.

Wickham Wanderers tweeted: We're delighted to announce the capture of Northern Irish midfielder Keelan Boyd Muntz following his exit from St.

Mirren in the Scottish Premiership.

Philip McPeak says,

Official club tweet announcing the capture of a player.

Are we having this?

Not sure I am.

How do you feel about this sort of transfer speak creeping in?

Is it a completely unnecessary word to use?

Yeah.

It's strange.

I mean, it almost sounds like

you could imagine a US president announcing the capture.

Yeah, I was going to say they have actually actually captured this guy.

High-profile terrorist or something, which, yeah, it's a bit weird.

I mean, it is, it's a very subtle form of transfer speak, Charlie.

I mean, it doesn't really sex up the transfer here in any particular way, does it?

Unless he was moved against his will.

I don't know.

Which is the last thing you want to be suggesting about a new signing.

I think people often, they just,

especially if you're talking a lot about transfers or whatever, you're just like, you want to spice it up and vary it and use different words and you don't really think about the different meanings and connotations.

Pen to paper and a new contract?

I'm all right with it.

I'm all right with pen to paper.

If it absolutely has to exist, I can live with it.

But I don't think capture's needed here.

So I worry.

I worry about what's going to happen for the next couple of months, Dave.

Has there been a particularly sort of protracted, high-profile pursuit of this player?

Are there been a number of teams on

his trail?

I don't know.

Well, I was trying to think that.

Like, what, when would capture could presumably like Forrest signing to be a captcha?

Presumably, well, yeah, I guess it is.

is it against his will or is it against the club that are sort of keeping him?

Maybe it's the result of a hijack.

They hijacked him, then captured him.

Yeah, there needs to be an element of resistance in there, doesn't it?

For it to be

for capture to really work.

Yeah, I've never, I'd have to say, I don't think I've ever seen it before in an official club tweet.

So, concerns.

I saw one the other day on a similar sort of note.

I think it was Nottingham Forest when Nuno signed his new contract.

Their official tweet was, Evangelos Marianakis has handed Nuno

a three and a half year contract extension or whatever, which is well I mean again that's definitely newspaper speak creeping in but also Maranakis putting himself front and center I think at Club Communications.

Right next up this came from Leighton Pierce and also Matthew Hall who wrote in hi Adam as someone who knows a thing or two about TV listings and EPGs are you able to adjudicate on Channel 4's usage of the format on the 12th of June?

It's innovative and fresh or is it too knowingly egregious?

Maybe it's a bit of both.

So what happened Dave, was

on that day's schedules of things like Frasier, Place in the Sun, Ramsey's 24 Hours to Helenbach, they inserted references to England's opening Euro under-21 game that evening on Channel 4.

Let me give you an example: Frazier.

Frazier and Martin discover they were both cheated on by their wives.

Presumably, ref Elchin Masiev will keep a close eye on any cheating in England's opening game at the under-21 Euro tonight.

This is nonsense.

This wouldn't have happened in my day.

I was going to say, would you have done this back in your EPG era?

Never worked on Channel 4.

That was one of the sort of blue-ribboned sort of jobs and contracts we had.

I was more of a sports guy, but turns out worlds can collide here.

But yeah, Charlie, this is ham-fisted.

It's funny that they've done it for this.

I mean, that it's because it's not like a huge.

If it was like the start of the World Cup or something.

Yeah.

Yeah, that might be.

They don't get many rights, Channel 4.

I suppose you've got to try and enjoy it while you're getting it.

Yeah, true.

I mean, I don't mind it.

And

they really did commit to this.

I mean, the literal, the whole output across the day, there was something in every single programme.

So, a place in the sun.

Sharon and Brendan from East Sussex want a home near Lake Garda.

Another East Sussex resident, Brighton star Jack Hinshelwood, is also hoping for success in Europe at the Euro under 21 Euro tonight.

They've had to do research, at least.

A little bit clunky, but

forget about

the actual deployment

and the copy, which maybe could be a bit tighter.

But I sort of admire the overall effort because it's subtle.

Like, not many people are going to read this stuff.

Not many people are going to see this in full.

So, I like the fact that it's just hidden away there for just the people that stumble across it.

Well, as the day unfolded, Charlie, these got less subtle.

Here's countdown.

Here's a nine-letter word you shouldn't forget.

Cresswell.

The Toulouse defenders already won the under 21 Euros with England.

Can he help the young lions to another when they kick off tonight?

Just getting straight to it.

He scored in the game.

Oh, no.

And then dedicated the goal to

these listings.

Flimey.

But yeah, I suppose you've got to promote your stuff however you can, and all eyeballs are going to be on those, I guess.

Next up, Brad Jones, who yes, does share his name with former Middlesbrough goalkeeper Brad Jones.

You don't have to write in about that ever again.

He just keeps sending these in, these excellent contributions.

And how about this for a question?

Charlie says, I'm just watching the Club World Cup out of intrigue for the golfing quality more than anything.

And it got me thinking, what would it take for a player from another continent to be considered in the best player in the world conversation?

Surely even 50 goals and all comps, Coppe Libertadores, every domestic trophy wouldn't be enough.

Would they have to win the Club World Cup and play a big part in their country's World Cup win as well?

Well, I don't think the Club World Cup would do it because I think there'd still be question marks about this event.

But yeah, I think they would have to do it in their country.

I think they'd have to do it at a kind of a major tournament like the World Cup.

I mean, which is bad.

I mean, I guess it shows how Eurocentric we are or that...

the golf that exists, but I just can't, I can't imagine.

It would just be all the talk about this player would just be, but they've got to go and move to Europe.

Like, we don't know how good they are yet.

The closest we've come in in sort of modern times, I mean, you can obviously can go back to Pele or whatever, but like the closest we've come recently is Neymar.

Yeah.

In 11, 12, and 13, in the Ballon d'Or rankings, he was in the top 10 or thereabouts whilst playing for Santos still.

And there was a bit, you know, people knew about him.

The move to Europe was always being talked about, but he was kind of, he was heralded as already being of a certain level.

I think maybe maybe he wasn't didn't get anywhere in the ballon d'Or, but Carlos Teves a little bit as well when he was in Argentina and Brazil before he moved to Europe.

I seem to remember people talking about him in similar sort of tones.

But yeah, it was just but still so world class, yeah.

That's let's break this down though.

I mean, first of all, Charlie, um, obviously, Charlie, we're talking about a player playing in South America here.

No other confederation is gonna scratch the surface here.

But as Brad suggests, you could do pretty much everything you could in South America, scoring more than a goal a game, winning the Copa Loberta Dorres, and it probably still wouldn't put you in the conversation.

So let's set that aside.

Your concerns over the Club World Cup, yes, you're right.

It's not an important enough competition in its own right yet, but

it provides the camera opportunity, a little bit like Messi winning the World Cup with Argentina.

It still provides that kind of moment, which might sway things, but it would have to be, I think it would have to be a veteran player rather than an up-and-coming player.

A player like Messi going back to South America and crowning his career, then you've got that extra nature.

If he'd gone back to like Newell's old boys or something like that and done all of those things as Messi at the age of 35, 36, and then would he still have had to win the World Cup with Argentina as well?

But that poses an interesting question, anyway, of like, is Messi world-class now?

Or like, at what point does he stop being world class?

You know, he's still

famously, but you know, is do you lose the world-classness as soon as you leave the top European league?

Or are you always world-class?

Was Rooney always a world-class player, even when he was in MLS?

But Bessie wasn't the best player in the world when he won the Ballon Dora after Argentina won the World Cup, was he?

So, a bit of narrative can propel you to that, David.

You'd need a lot of narrative here, and it just seems too big a gap to bridge, I would say.

Yeah, I think it is.

And if the Club World Cup goes as well as FIFA hope it could possibly go, and that in 10, 15 years' time,

it's elevated to a status where people genuinely care about it.

And some of the South American and clubs from all over the world are sort of their level somehow goes up and it becomes more of a thing.

Maybe, like you say, maybe there would be slightly more reason for a top player to stay or to stay at a South American club or to go there a bit earlier than they would otherwise have done.

But if

it's still unlikely, but I think then, I think it would then reach the threshold of it would be a big talking point and a big debate that you'd have someone saying like well how can he not be world club he's just gone and done it against the best teams in europe but then the counter being like yeah but he's got to do it consistently in europe we've not seen that from him so i don't think it would be definitive it would at least create a discussion and messy aside you know whilst he was a standout case in in so many ways the ballon d'oor does feel still like a pretty accurate reflection of who the best players in the world are if you took that top 10 you're very unlikely to quibble with the people in there maybe the order, but it's still a fair reflection of who the best players in the world are.

So for now, we can rely on it as a good judge.

But, yeah, give it 10, 15 years of solid club world cupping.

You never know.

An interesting one for Brad Jones.

Come back when it does happen and you'll be vindicated.

Easy one for us, perhaps, next Dave.

Joe Brook says, how many positions does a player need to play in in order to be a Swiss Army knife?

of a player.

Now, I really like this phrase.

I really like it being deployed.

I don't necessarily think it has to be an overtly versatile player like a Luis Enrique Championship Manager, DMA, RLC.

I think it's more about roles and abilities rather than positions specifically.

I mean, that's where football's going these days.

It's not about positions, it's about roles.

Yeah, it's sort of, it's not just somebody that can just play like centre-back and right-back or fill in one or the other.

It's like being able to do two different things that are two or three different things that are really different in the manner of a Swiss army knife.

You've got the corkscrew, you've got the little nail clipper, you were made of the knife.

You've got the knife.

They are one of the coolest things ever invented.

But Charlie, let's take, I know, Philip Lahm, for example,

who wasn't incredibly versatile, but did a couple of roles very well.

I wouldn't call him a Swiss Army knife by any stretch.

No, that's too...

Yeah, he's got too few specialisms, I guess.

Like you say, he's got a couple really nailed down.

Who's Swiss Army knife these days?

Who's fitting this?

I'm trying to think, because you do, and I agree.

I really like it as an expression.

it, you hear it quite a lot.

You hear it about,

and this might sound like an odd example in a way.

Someone like Ben White as a right-back is someone who can play as a kind of up-and-down overlappy right-back, or he can play as a kind of tucked-in right-back, or he can play as just a, I'm going to sit and basically be a centre-back here.

So it's kind of, or some, there's even,

yeah, but there's even something like, he's such a good ball player, could he play as a midfielder type thing that used to get about like a David Louise or someone?

But maybe that's, maybe that's within one one role too much.

I would say so.

I mean, Dave, how about Jude Bellingham, for example, who doesn't who doesn't play lots of different positions, but he does seem to have this kind of slightly kind of nebulous footballing ability that you can't really classify.

Like, what's he overtly good at in comparison to all the other things that he's good at?

So I would call him slightly Swiss Army knifey.

Like, I would back him to sit in front of a defense if he absolutely had to, but then he does all these other things as well.

It's got to the point, man.

I'm actually baffled by what he does do.

Is he actually any good?

That's where I've got to with him.

He's really good, but he he scored a goal for Real Madrid in their most recent game, which was like a real proper strikers sort of take and finish.

And he had that season two years ago where he kind of played up front for Real Madrid.

But he, yeah, he I think you're onto something with that.

He does he does embody those sorts of qualities.

I'm just really annoyed that David Aliver isn't Swiss.

You've just googled that, haven't you?

I've just had a look at, oh no, he's Austrian.

Take me back close enough.

But I feel like Bellingham's a bit too elite for this.

Like, maybe that's something.

Maybe I

just functional.

Do you think it needs to be a more functional thing?

A little bit.

And I kind of associate it more with a sort of a filling in.

You can do lots of different things, defensive, midfield.

Bellingham's a bit too kind of a...

premium product, I think, to be a Swiss Army knife.

This is a kind of like second, you know, because it's not like your main weapon or your main accessory.

It's just like a, does lots of different things to a reasonable standard.

I think he's he's a bit too good for that.

You're not cutting up any vegetables with your Swiss Army knife, I imagine.

I mean, we're kind of drawn towards fullbacks in this day and age because they are so, you know, sort of forcibly moved into other situations, Dave.

Like someone like Mark Kukarella, who is clearly a fullback by trade, but then gets pushed into midfield and he ends up sort of playing as number 10 almost in Chelsea's very strange system.

But he needs to physically be able to do something other than looking like fullbacky things.

If he's leaping high and winning headers in a sort of Thomas Suchek kind of way, then that would make him a Swiss Army knife.

I'd need him to be taller, basically.

If Mark Coquerella was 5'11, I think he'd have a good shout at this.

You do need to be a bit taller, I think.

For some reason,

I'm not having any short Swiss army knives.

Could young Archie Gray at Spurs?

I mean, he's played in like every position

and he seems to be just he seems to be a bit like one of those kids who's just ama who's like amazing at every sport and you can kind of just transpose them and they'll they'll like yeah he's also a really good 800 meter runner and yeah he's a good cricketer actually archie grey as well not sure

that helps not sure so he can play so he can play anywhere they're something of a swiss army family aren't they the greys yeah there's so many of them yeah got everything there set of swiss army knives you've got this whole you've got the whole site yeah they're all the same yeah no i like this i mean obviously he was kind of forced into playing various positions last year but that clearly he's going to be asked to do that again exactly in the next few years yeah um they see him as a midfielder i mean yeah Where you're like, to the point, like, you don't even know what his best position is.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, it's the best shout so far.

I like this a lot.

Right, that's it for part two.

We'll be back in a moment.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

This is the adjudication panel.

Now, here's this week's cast everything into doubt that you may ever have thought about this subject or not.

It comes from Drunr on Reddit.

And it's a question about passing range, Dave.

When people reference a player's passing range, are they talking about the variety of passes in their locker?

Booming, crossfield, through ball, short and precise, etc., or simply the distance that they can accurately pass the ball?

I always thought it was the former to highlight someone's repertoire, but then all players described as having a brilliant passing range are more known for their long distance passes skulls of manchester pierlow beckham you'd highlight xabbi alonso's passing range but never shabby's or in the esters even though you'd categorize all as amazing pastors alonso can just ping it i've never really doubted my initial understanding and now it's taking over my morning i don't want to stay out of this i don't want to make a fool of myself i don't know which one i would instinctively think i think i've been under the impression that it's the latter that it's it is a literally about your ability to go long or or put the ball at whatever distance you want it it to be.

You can do it all.

There's no pass that you haven't got.

But actually, the way it's described there, I suppose it is a bit of both.

It's not just about pure distance, it is about technique and your variety, your variety.

That does make sense.

But, Charlie, let's think about is common usage.

Well, if you think about a pundit commonly deploying it in their analysis, are they talking about long-range passes or are they talking about a variety of passes?

Or, third option, is it just that long passes grab the attention more and do add that texture to a passing range?

I think it should be about what I've always thought it to mean and what I've always thought people mean is

it's the range of their passing.

Yes, it's the variety.

It's the fact that, you know, he can go five yards, 10 yards, 20, 30.

He can ping it.

He can play it short.

That's what passing range should be.

And I would actually question that.

I would say Xiabi Alonso, what I always loved about him, he could play short passes, but even short passes, he's playing in a kind of amazing Xiabi Alonso type way where he'd sort of be fading it and like doing all this nice stuff.

I think think part of it comes from as well, an assumption that if you can ping a pass 40, 50 yards, you can probably play a short pass as well.

And you kind of make that assumption, even though like Paul Scoles of Manchester, I kind of, I'm sure people can't remember it, but they just think, I'm sure he can play a short pass.

Why couldn't he?

He could do everything else really well.

Yeah, I think Scoles and Alonzo are great examples of this, of players who you primarily think of as quite expansive in terms of their passing.

They loved a crossfield ping, but both good touch players as well.

So

I'm really baffled by what I don't know.

I don't know what I think about this.

I'm really troubled.

But a good example of someone who doesn't have what I think of as a good passing range necessarily is Stephen Gerrard, who obviously was synonymous with Hollywood passes.

Right.

And I think the accusation at him was that he doesn't have a great passing range because he can't do the short, simple stuff as well.

But yeah, but could you chuck that in about Gerrard and nobody would sort of bat an eyelid?

He's got running power, he's got passing range, and people would just think, yeah, he hits crossfield passes.

No, sure, but like you say, Charlie, surely.

What do you mean he can't pass short?

Surely he can, can't he?

He did, didn't he?

Did he not?

Well, you're not talking about five yards.

You're talking about sort of, you know, threaded between the lines.

Yeah.

A little bit, but even just the ability to do the metronomic Jabbi Alonso stuff of I'm going to play at five here.

I'm going to get it back.

I'm going to give you the ball.

And then I'm going to get.

You know, I don't think of Gerrard.

I feel he was too impatient.

He'd just get it and be like, nah, well, I can see someone over there.

I'm going to ping it.

Yeah, yeah.

The golden generation effect is like,

we have to get rid of this ball upfield as soon as possible.

Exactly.

There is a skill for playing short passes and a lot of them.

And actually, if you think about it, the slip moment is because he's cocked his leg back to try and do one of those Stephen Gerrard style passes rather than just kind of, that's his default position.

Is you think of Gerrard getting the ball, taking that little touch out of his feet and looking up, and he's ready to ping one, whether that be 60 yards or 30 yards or whatever.

But he's doing it in a certain way that eventually led to that moment.

Yeah, if he had that passing range, that would never have happened.

Could have just gone back to the keeper.

You need that in your locker as well.

I'm really, really glad they raised this.

However, you say their name on Reddit.

Finally, it's arrived.

The trailer for Saipan, the film about Roy Keene, Mick McCarthy, and Ireland's 2002 World Cup training camp has dropped.

Here it is.

Please do stay tuned.

We'll hear the latest news of this coming as soon as we get to maybe.

There could be some sort of split in the cabinet.

One thing everybody seems to be forgetting is that the team isn't a one-man show.

And here's Roy Keen!

What makes him a great player on the pitch makes him a pain in the ass off it?

Roy Keene is not going home.

People are one side or another.

Roy Kane's done nothing wrong.

I feel he's lectured in his country.

He can't be replaced.

You're unmanageable.

No, it's you that can't manage.

That's the problem.

What a bad joke.

He's the best player we have.

You fucked up.

I don't think we're done.

You never tell me when we're done.

I'm just getting staffed.

I mean, first of all, Dave, just to say broad observation about film trailers now, that film could be about anything.

It could be like the next Godzilla film.

The fact that it starts with some coordinates of where Saipan is, it's just like,

yeah, and the shot of the, like, of the bay or the sea, the seafront.

Yeah, you're right.

Yeah, it could be.

Feel a bit Godzilla.

Yeah.

It looks good though.

Yeah, there's plenty of promise there, but there are also, for me, a few little alarm bells as well.

I think, first of all, I mean, Steve Coogan, as you'd expect, his Mick McCarthy accent sounds like it's going to be pretty spot on.

I think I always do struggle a little bit with this, with anything that Coogan's in, just to not see Alan Partridge just visually, because that's just one of those things.

But um I'm sure he'll be really good if you haven't seen this check it out

Eina Hardwick who plays Roy Keane we'll see what his performance is like in the in the whole film in the whole con in the full context but I don't know he just he just looks a bit too tall and rangy like he looks like a sort of modern centre back he doesn't look like Roy Keen enough to me he look he looks Charlie he looks like a fairly plausible footballer Aina Hardwick in this film but he looks like a Republic of Ireland international who also plays in the championship currently yeah yeah to the extent that when I, it took me a second after seeing it or the following scene to be like, oh, that was Roy Keane, right?

Whereas obviously, yeah, because my football brain went to, yeah, that does look like a kind of slightly hard man centre-back.

And obviously, you know Mick McCarthy so well.

I am excited.

Like, I agree with you, Dave, with Steve Coogan, but at the same time, Steve Coogan, it feels like quite a gift to have this incredibly talented person putting his talents towards like a football, a funny football moment from 2002 it's like great yeah please keep doing this do some like keys and greys stuff for our amusement i'm excited to see where the humour does spill out in this film because it it does have a humorous element i'm i'm led to believe steve coogan's mick mccarthy then dave the voice i'm very only a little glimpse of it in the trailer the voice is a solid eight out of ten at least looks wise they haven't really gone to town on it which is probably good there's no prosthetic nose there's like they've given him grey hair it's slicked back a bit um That's as much McCarthy as they've needed to do to him.

Yeah, that's fine.

I think we'll probably be able to suspend our disbelief.

I think if his accent and mannerisms are as good as we expect them to be, I'll probably be fine.

There was a tantalising little glimpse in the trailer of a shot of, it's only there for like half a second.

It's McCarthy, his two coaches, and most of the squad sort of sitting around the dinner table.

And I was going through it trying to kind of pick out who I thought which player was, but they all look quite similar, so I'm not quite sure.

There's One slightly Gary Breen-y-looking guy, the rest of them, I wouldn't be able to pick.

No Lee Carsley, very annoying.

I've been cut out, that's annoying.

But

it looks slick, Charlie.

I would definitely go and watch this at the cinema, I think.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

We should be at the premiere.

Yeah, we should be.

Looking forward to a sequel about Gary Breen's aborted move to inter.

Saipan 2.

I've been

the return of Gary Breen.

Gary Breen's revenge.

I've actually been watching, re-watching The Trip recently.

New series out.

Coogan.

All right, rest his entertainment.

They start talking about football at one point, and he says he doesn't like football.

So maybe that rules him out for an MHD.

And I hope that doesn't bleed into his, you know, let his performance down in any way.

That'll be the thing that rules him out of it.

Yeah, you need to be to play a football right now.

There's got to be somebody from this film that we can get on as an MHD.

It has to be.

Hardwick.

Maybe Hardwick's a big football fan, hopefully.

His delivery of Keene's lines is quite good.

That sort of sneer that he's got.

Yeah, the accent was quite good.

Yeah, well, you'd hope so, wouldn't you?

So, yeah, looking forward to this.

The information just leaks out about this gradually.

It's fantastic.

Thanks to you, David Walker.

Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

Get your voice notes in for the listeners' mezza Harland Dicks this week.

And we'll see you then.

Bye-bye.

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Yo, this is important, man.

Uh, my favorite Lululemon shorts, the ones you got me back in the day, I think they're called pacebreakers.

The ones with all the pockets.

I just got back from vacation and I left them in my hotel room.

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Could you send me the link to where you got them?

Oh, also, my birthday is coming up soon.

So, anyways, thanks, bro.

Talk soon.

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