5-a-side injury updates & watching TV football from an acute angle: The listeners' loves & hates

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The UPS store.

Be unstoppable.

Come into your local store today.

I'm sorry.

You can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Is Gascoigne going to have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I think.

Brilliant.

He's round the goal, Keeper.

He's done it.

Absolutely incredible.

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was

without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, save!

It's amazing!

He does it tame and tame and tame again.

Break up the music!

Charge a glass!

This nation is going to dance all night long!

The Roy Keene film's cheapscape location scandal revealed the sprained ankles of the nation's five-aside group chats, the cod psychology behind pundits who instinctively list the options for a player's age or height, players who look like they think throw-ins are beneath them, why watching a game on a TV at an angle of less than 40 degrees is worse than death, and the unsatisfying asterisk that looms over at least half a dozen major international tournament winners since 1954.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés and your Mezza Harlan Dicks.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Clichés.

This is the listeners Mezza Harlan Dicks for Dune, your footballing fascinations and irritations.

I'm Adam Hurry.

Joining me for this one is Charlie Eccleshare.

Hello.

Hello.

And David Walker, how you doing?

Live show news.

First off,

I was hasty when I said Leeds was sold out.

We've released a handful.

A couple of handfuls, I would say, Dave, of tickets for Leeds.

So you can get back in there if you want to join us at the wardrobe on Tuesday, the 21st of October.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think they'll be around for long, so get them while you can down to the very last few that we've uh we've managed to release from somewhere yeah of course we are going to brighton cardiff hackney empire in london birmingham dublin manchester and glasgow in october it's our biggest tour yet and it's going to be our best show yet as well go to tickets.football clichés.com.

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It's great fun.

Right before we get stuck into the main event today a little adjudication panel.

We enjoyed the trailer for Saipan on Tuesday's episode Charlie.

The film about Roy Keene and Mick McCarthy before the 2002 World Cup.

Eagle-eyed TH-14BS7 on Reddit took one look at the swimming pool in the trailer for Saipan and noticed that it was the same same one from his holiday in Tenerife last year.

What a spot that is.

Actually, that's amazing.

Yeah.

Wow, that's really bust it open.

Yeah, didn't they film it in the Northern Mariana Islands after all?

That's disappointing.

Just filmed it in Tenerife.

Don't know if the whole film's set there, but the Hotel Botanico and Oriental Spa Garden in Puerto de la Cruz, Tenerife, Dave.

Very nice.

I mean, I guess this sort of thing happens all the time, right?

You know, we obviously hold these films to a very high standard and we are after accuracy where possible, but I guess you just need a nice tropical-ish hotel setting to film in and Tenerife probably easier to do than going to Saipan to actually do it in the real one.

So sorry, but Buenos Dias, do you have any palm trees at your hotel?

That'll do.

See you later.

See you in a bit.

There was a part of me that thought, and I doubt this is the case, because I've actually found the real hotel that they stayed in, which was a Hayat Regency in Mukto, Saipan, which kind of does look a bit similar, to be honest.

A couple of nice tennis courts.

It's a reasonable proxy.

Yeah, you'd have been having a great time, Charlie.

But I did wonder, did Roy Keene go on holiday, like during the tournament after he decided to leave?

Like, could it be a shot of Roy Keene just away from it all in Tenerife?

Escaping to Tenerife from the PAX, maybe.

Yeah, maybe let's reserve our judgment for now.

I mean, there are other elements of the film that haven't got it quite right.

The training gear and all the shirts, Charlie, are missing the Umbro logo.

They've had to sort of genericize the Umbro logo.

One account I read on Twitter this week was that Umbro just didn't get back to them in time.

They were well up for their logo being on the shirts.

They just didn't get back to them in time.

The film was made.

Now they've just got some darf little sort of geometric pattern on it instead of the logo.

Such a shame because everything else is really realistic, you know, clothing-wise.

That is annoying.

At least they tried.

It's not just a kind of error on someone's side.

Might ruin it for me when I'm watching it on the big screen.

It was only a bit annoying.

It's going to take me out of the story.

Elsewhere, Donnie and Mui writes in, Dave, Dave, and says

a tweet from David Bumble Lloyd during the final day of the test match between England and India.

And Donnie and Mui say they can't help but read this tweet in Keese's voice.

So here it is.

Really enjoyed the test match.

Fabulous measured chase by England.

A young Indian team will learn from this.

They're on an adventure.

Hats off to the YCCC.

They put on a great show.

We do things right in Yorkshire.

Always have done.

It's so relevant.

Yeah.

The many short sentences.

It's a little bit too positive.

Like there should be a dig in there somewhere.

Like that they've somehow defied expectations.

Like shows what the experts know or something.

You know, whereas

it's all a bit positive.

But the rhythm cadence-wise is spot on.

I see what you mean, but Dave, maybe David Lloyd is treating Yorkshire like Keesy would Doha in this situation where nothing can go wrong.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I think you're right, Charlie.

Maybe Keesey would have said, you know, despite a dog of a pitch, we still saw a great test match.

Yeah, or, because, and with, but with Qatar as well, he would still find a way to be like all the so-called experts before saying it wouldn't work.

So, you know, Bumble in this instance would say, like, there's so much Yorkshire bashing.

Yeah, you can come and watch this and say that.

You can't start a test series at Headingley, they said.

Is Keese into cricket?

There's been no indication of that.

He's just eating that.

I don't think he is, which is amazing, really, because there are so many elements of it he must love.

Yeah.

But the Britishness of it.

Yeah, I wonder what his opinion on cricket is.

Warwickshire?

I guess so.

Coventry's around there, isn't it?

There you go.

News emerging as we record, Charlie, that Arsenal are exploring a deal to sign Christian Norgard from Brentford.

It did get me thinking.

I mean, it's quite a surprise.

move anyway, but it did get me thinking, at what point does it become a Brentford Exodus?

You don't hear about Exoduses anymore.

They seem quite an old thing, but Thomas Frank leaving Brentford.

No, it's not Exodai.

Don't get me on that.

Thomas Frank leaving Brentford for Spurs, I think, is the quintessential Exodus sparker because it has all the ingredients.

I think Brentford are well placed to have an Exodus.

They kind of reached the end of their cycle.

Players at the end of their contracts are very much up for grabs as well.

And Burmo, Wissa, and now Norgard, apparently.

And their model kind of accommodates for it as well.

But does it accommodate for an Exodus?

Yeah, mass Exodus.

I'm trying to think, what, trying to think of like Exoduses from gone by.

When was the last big Exodus?

Yeah, well, I guess when teams get relegated,

that often sparks an exodus, doesn't it?

Yeah, it has to be a footballing reason for an exodus, Dave.

Either a manager leaving and all the players going, well, I'm not doing this without him.

Absolutely no way.

Or, or relegation or something like that.

But it couldn't be a financial meltdown.

That's a fire sale.

That's a clear route to a certain extent.

Clear outs are sort of halfway, but yeah, an exodus is not about finding a business.

Not you bet in 2006.

Absolutely not.

No.

Do they all have to go to the same club or not?

It's fine if they they just disperse.

Just scatter.

I think you want some going to this.

Ideally, that feels sort of right somehow.

But yeah, they don't all.

I mean, they're not all going to go.

If Frank goes back to Brentford and raids them for a couple of players, then

even then I feel like he's too respectful to actually overtly do that as well.

So it's all very awkward.

But yeah.

Yeah.

I think the fact they're about to appoint Keith Andrews as well, an untested manager who's

never had a head coach job before, the set piece coach or whatever, the fact that they're about to do that as well it does play into the sort of the the exodus narrative quite nicely it's great for the long read yeah the end of next season just on um linking everything to keese but that's going to be an intriguing one keith andrews because for keese at his heart the idea of a set piece coach andy becoming a manager is so anathema to everything he stands for but he'll surely like keith andrews the fact that he's irish and always seems like a good lad so that's going to be one to keep an eye on yeah there's a touch of be in about keith andrews as well well because he's done sort of pundit work as well.

So, yeah, I can see him having popped in there.

Yeah, maybe RTE first and then on to be in uh the Jason McAteer route.

Perhaps.

Um, this next one came from Under the Pressure on Reddit.

Uh, this is from the Wikipedia page of IAX goalkeeper Remco Pasvir.

It says he made his debut for the club on the 7th of August 2021 in a 4-0 loss to PSV in the Johan Cruyf Shield.

Due to suspensions and injuries for goalkeepers Andrei Anana and Martin Stekelenberg, Pasvir stayed on as the starter in goal.

On the 19th of October 2021, Pasvir earned a record as the first goalkeeper to stop three direct shots on goal from Norwegian striker Erling Haaland in a UEFA Champions League match.

What?

That's mad.

Was that a thing?

I mean, I guess Opta could sort of capture this data, but don't ever publicise it as a record.

That's mad.

But that's surely a good example of what we've talked about before.

That must have been tweeted out by Opta or something at some stage and then just enters the football ecosystem and is taken as being an interesting thing because someone with all the stats has said it is and we all just sort of say oh yeah no yeah well i guess that is interesting i bet it's also much rarer than you think for harlan to have three direct shots on target in a game yeah yeah surprisingly low this sort of stuff this was um harlan's third season at dortmund so he was established he'd scored 12 Champions League goals in the two seasons before that.

So he was established as a European force.

But does it warrant that sort of thing?

It just reeks of like modern-day Guinness Book of Records nonsense.

It's not a record.

It might be notable in a very minor way, but it is absolutely not a record.

No citation on this, by the way, Charlie Wichita.

Does make me think that maybe his agent put it in there or has made it up.

Who knows?

Who's going to check it?

We are.

But yeah, fair play to Remco Pasphere.

Next up, Last Saint, Dave, says, I just saw some transfer speculation about Jamie Gittens, which makes me think is is his the most Harchester United coded name in actual football.

It is very made-up footballers' name.

Once he got rid of the bino from his surname, it's got very Harchester.

Yeah, that is...

That's nice.

The only thing with it is

it is quite Harchester United, but it's also quite

children's football fiction somehow to me.

Jamie Gittens.

I don't know if that would be like Renford Rejects or something like that.

There's something quite youthful about Jamie Gittens.

I also think we did this last summer when the Olympics were on.

I think it's quite...

it could be quite Olympic-y.

I could see him being a team GB

for the leg of a relay.

Yeah, Jamie's also quite a generation spanning footballer's name.

Like, it could easily be a player in the 90s, 2000s, 2010s, and now.

So I can see how it might be a go-to for a kind of

audience aiming for production company.

Ronnie Edwards is a current England under 21.

He could be quite Harchester.

Ronnie Edwards.

Sleeps with a chairman's wife.

Ronnie Edwards seems like more of a throwback, though.

Yeah, Ronnie is just, it's too, it's too East End gangster, isn't it, Ronnie?

What about CJ Egan Riley?

I mean, a player being called CJ in any sort of programme is definitely going to happen, right?

Incredible that he's not somehow playing for the US MNT.

Hayden Hackney.

We could do this for ages.

We're not going to.

Finally, this came from Alex Korns.

It's some lovely vintage late Channel 5 era Jonathan Pierce for you here from Liverpool versus Levsky Sofia.

UEFA Cup third round, first leg, February 2004.

Levsky Sofia shut down.

In comes the cross.

Suddenly they switched off.

This is Gerard!

Army hit back!

Howard!

Gerard!

Brilliant!

I don't know, it lacks the absolute loose canon-ness of his capital gold days and his mid-90s channel 5 era, but there's still that you can see that's when you start to see jonathan pierce just letting go for one more time before he takes on a kind of bbc sheen doesn't he dave yeah yeah yeah that's great and i feel as you know as we've heard in recent months it's it's still there it's he's he's never quite lost that initial kind of energy that he brought in the capital days um

and in the hands of another commentator that just doesn't work as well i can imagine matterface going down that route on an ITV broadcast.

But imagine Pierce just pulling something like that out on match of the day next season, Charlie, just thinking, I want another go at it.

I want to pivot back to where I was.

Yeah, I think that's really been lost.

I can't imagine Matterface doing that.

It's too,

I think people are too straight now.

I mean, it's a funny thing as well.

This goal is what, 10 months before the beauty?

Sort of Pierce slightly preempts, you know, that a huge moment.

I wonder if he thinks that.

Oh, if only I'd had that.

If only I'd had that goal rather than this one.

The early tremor before the earthquake lovely stuff right that's the adjudication panel taken care of we'll be back very shortly with the listeners mezzer harlan dicks This episode of football clichés is brought to you in association with Saley, a new e-Sim service app from the creators of NordVPN.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

It's time for the listeners mezza Harlan Dick's your niche footballing fascinations and irritations for this month.

A cracking selection as well, high quality, and took some work to sift through this.

Let's kick off your fascinations with this from Martin Hudson.

My football fascination is the obligatory swollen ankle photo that a Sunday league or five-aside player sends to the group chat after they've suffered a sprain.

It's usually about an hour after everyone's got home.

Normally, I'd be cynical and chalk it up to a bit of social media attention seeking, but actually, I think it's fair enough.

You know, they're going to be out of action for the next couple of months and there's that anxiety that they're going to be forgotten while they rot on the sidelines.

Plus, I think there's a need to prove how bad the injury was.

Like, they weren't just being theatrical.

So, yeah, you'd need a steel heart not to...

allow them that little final moment in the spotlight before they go off the radar for a bit.

It is still quite attention-seeking, though.

This is a little minor aspect of particularly fiber-side culture, Dave, that I don't think we've touched on before.

He's spot on about this.

I mean, there's definitely a threshold for the type of injury that gets revealed in this situation.

And

they can be quite major.

You could be in hospital A and E or something.

But what's the low threshold for an injury for this?

I think sort of sprained ankle is about right, or you know, a heavy bruise.

Oh, yeah, it's definitely an ankle thing in the main, because that's often it's injured enough for there to be some sort of visible sign, so either a swelling or a bruise, but not injured enough, as you say, to be too gruesome or to be in a hospital or with any sort of protective boots on or anything.

Yeah, you can't have bones sticking out of skin, can you, Charlie?

I mean, that's

like a trigger warning for this sort of thing.

Yeah, I think as well, another one is a kind of in 11 aside would be sort of showing stud marks and being like, yeah, ref didn't think this was a foul or something.

Um, you know,

they're wanker number six or something.

But I think it comes down as well to like this so much, something that we've talked about before.

It is kind of cosplaying as a pro, and it's one of the rare areas that there's no major difference in a way.

You know, like you can

get injured just like the pros can, and you can kind of look a bit hard because often the a lot of the time, or you hope, they're not that painful, or they weren't that, they certainly weren't that painful at the moment.

They hurt a bit now because the adrenaline's worn off and whatever, but you'll probably be back quite soon anyway.

So it's kind of like, look, this looks really bad.

It's not actually that bad.

And I look a bit professional.

I'm just holding up a picture.

I've just dived into the Ribblesdale Rovers WhatsApp group.

In the group media, there are...

plenty of swollen swollen ankles uh

to different degrees and a few bruised ones here and there and actually quite a lot of complaints about like people that like oh i don't want to see your horrible ankles.

There's nothing wrong with the swollen ankle.

That's fine, put it away.

It's a little bit, isn't it?

Yeah, I know.

That's a family-friendly injury, the swollen ankle.

But you're absolutely textbook.

The swollen ankle dry.

Maybe a golf ball-sized lump on someone's head after a clash of heads.

I think that's probably okay.

I mean, if it happens to you, just sheer curiosity, you're taking a picture of it just for posterity.

But I'm interested that Martin touched on the motivations for posting this in the group chat, Dave.

And it's kind of twofold.

One, people just like sharing sharing information about themselves when things happen to them.

And two, probably more pertinently, proof that them limping out of the game was backed up by something substantial.

It's a mini macho aspect to this going on.

Completely, yeah.

To show that actually, yeah, this really did hurt.

That really was a serious foul.

And also, as Martin said in his submission, to kind of provide a little bit of an explanation for like why I might not be around for

a little while.

We had to take a couple of weeks weeks off, I'm afraid, lads.

Next time, can you just have a copy of the day's newspaper actually with your ankle,

just to prove that?

The reactions to this are usually quite sympathetic, Charlie, because I think there's a team ethic that comes first here, because all the teammates will know the context in which that injury probably happened, where it might have been a bad challenge or something like that.

So

there's more or less a sympathetic reaction, I would say.

Take it easy, mate.

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, like, oh, mate,

yeah, don't rush back.

Depending on how good they are.

The little emoji reaction with the bandage on the head.

Yeah.

You'll get a few of those.

Just why not?

That is one as well, actually.

If you do end up having to go to AE, we had a player this year who had a really bad clash of heads with one of our own players, actually.

And I had to patch him up on the sidelines.

But then he had to go to AE later that day and get his wound glued back together.

All right.

That's not a picture situation, is it?

No,

not of the wound, but of the here I am in AE fucking Lads.

Oh, it's 5 p.m.

and I'm still here sort of thing.

Yes, spot on.

You have to take the sort of funnily angled AE picture with enough sort of material and sort of furniture in the background to prove that you are indeed in AE.

I do fear though, Charlie, that the threshold for this might be lower in certain Fiverr WhatsApp groups across the country.

I imagine there must be groups sharing sort of pictures of AstroTurf burns on their knees and someone going, oh, it looks sore.

It's like, ah, it doesn't make the threshold for me, son.

I remember actually, I took a picture.

I think I just sent it to a couple of people I had a really horrific astrobird I just found actually here

so yeah I can I can empathize with that does really hurt fair play okay do you ever get um like there's a step further from this not not so much in like regular teams or like Sunday League because you kind of know each other to a certain degree where it's sort of fine to share stuff in that in that scenario.

But when you're in like a big WhatsApp group for sort of a regular game of five aside or something, where you probably don't loads of people are in there and they might play casually, don't really know everyone.

And every now and again, somebody will give like an excuse a bit too much.

They'll tell you about some sort of medical procedure that they just are going to be having.

And you just can't make it, would have done, would have been fine.

Things are a bit tough at home at the moment.

It's fine.

Don't tell us that.

People love talking about themselves.

That's just it.

I mean, I'm not much of an injury poster.

I'm more of a subsequent scan poster.

Yeah, posting a picture of the separation between the two ends of my Achilles tendon from an MRI.

That's elite level for me.

And also, not a very photogenic injury.

There's nothing to look at because it's all under the skin.

But yeah, great start.

Next fascination of football comes from Adam Lewis.

My football fascination actually used to be an irritation, but over the past couple of years, I've grown increasingly fond of it.

Mainly because I've noticed how much it's used in day-to-day life and not just in the world of football.

But it is where someone isn't sure of a statistic, so instead just gives it a range of like one or two up or one or two down either way.

So in football, this is typically used around transfer fees, players' ages, maybe goals scored.

And Gary Neville is particularly bad at it or good at it, depending how you look at it.

But for a working example, you'll hear something like, you know, Vardy's still doing it now.

And what is he?

33, 4-5?

Or, you know, Harlan's the best striker out there.

And, you know, last season, his return is, you know, strong.

He's got 23, 4, 5 goals.

Or X Club, I think they underperformed last year.

But, you know, they've still finished sixth, seventh, eighth.

So it's just a great way of kind of sounding like you have the stats in your mind.

When in fact, you have no fucking idea.

Charlie, this is a noted phenomenon for this podcast.

We love this, and I've got some bones to pick with Adam Lewis's examples, though.

No one would ever say 23, 4, 5.

Come on.

We've got to get this right.

Yeah.

Yeah, but the spirit of it is spot on.

Yeah, the what is 23, 24, 25?

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty ubiquitous.

I mean, the famous Andy Gray 70s, 80s 80s one to describe Tony Blair.

70s,

80s, 90s.

I mean, we all do it.

And it's annoying because you'll sometimes do it when you're actually right the first time, but you sort of doubt yourself and you sort of feel I should be vague.

No, I'm sure he is 28.

What is it in your mind that makes you have that moment of self-doubt?

Like, I've done it as well when

you might know, Charlie, you've been talking about Harry Kane or, I don't know, talking about Jack Draper, you'll know how old they are.

But just in that split second, you'll go, oh, fuck, is it his birthday yet?

Or is he turning 25 yet?

I've just realised, yes, you're absolutely right that it is self-doubt.

You're trying to be precise about something.

You don't know if you've got it right.

You're trying to pad it out, hoping that, you know, in accumulation, you might finally get there.

But maybe also there's the reverse phenomenon, Charlie, where you don't, you suddenly realise that you don't want to look like a know-it-all.

So you kind of, you kind of row back from it and go, oh, well, you know, what's he sort of 23 24 like yeah but then i think there are there are more elegant ways of doing that you know because you can say like you know they they came up in what 98 i think when you know full well it's 98 i'll do that but you know you

peek behind the curtain

you know i wouldn't say they they came up in what 98 99 2000 okay so that's too vague okay so charlie let's say you are doing it deliberately you do offer a range of three answers.

Are you going to sandwich the correct answer?

Are you going to go with it first and then go full on?

Or are you going to arrive at it last?

Which one is it?

Oh, I don't think I'd do three.

I think three is too many.

I think that betrays too much that you don't really know.

Trying too hard, okay.

Yeah, I think you'd start the one you think it is and then go up from there.

That would be my instinct.

He's what, 24, 25?

Because he's rarely going to be younger than you think.

He's usually older.

Because you're worried about a sneaky birthday that you've missed.

Yeah, I think so.

Unless you're talking about a young player then, but though, maybe someone who's been around,

who you think is older than he is, who they've been around a little while.

I think you could definitely.

You always go ascending, don't you?

You wouldn't say he's he's what, 18, 17?

That would sound mad!

That would be absolutely mad.

I'd love to see it catch on.

Why shouldn't it catch on?

Especially talking about a young player.

What is he?

18?

17?

16?

That would be incredible.

Benjamin Button.

But I think with Yamal, I think there might be a bit of that.

He's what, 13, 12?

You already forget, because you're already thinking that he's a bit older than he is because he was like 16 at the Euros or what?

Isn't he?

Eminently possible.

Yeah.

And if you also, you know, naturally, Dave, if you go too high, first of all, and you're not sure, you probably are going to go down.

What was he?

Six foot six, six foot five?

But okay, we could do this forever.

But Dave, obviously, ages and heights are the absolute classics for this because, you know, an inch or a year either way isn't a massive amount, but you kind of do want to incorporate it into the thinking.

But Adam Lewis's example of a league position.

What do they finish?

Sixth, seventh, eighth?

You can't do that.

I'm sorry.

You certainly can provide three options.

That's nine million pounds in prize money.

And yeah, and that is, I mean, obviously they're all easy to check, but like, that's one that you really should just remember it.

Just find it out, remember it.

Like, there's no sneaky birthday.

There's no sneaky, like, a post-season reshuffling of the table that you've maybe missed out on.

Yeah, pause the podcast, Zoom, and go and check it on Wikipedia and pick it back up.

That's what we do.

But then that said, like, if it depends what you're talking about as well.

If you're on to specifically talk about, you know, a club and it's a key piece of the conversation, then yes, know it.

But if it just you happen to be taken down a cul-de-sac and you end up talking about something you're not quite sure about, but you sort of roughly know, then, you know, there can be a bit of leeway for sure.

I think heights are

perfect, actually, for this because I don't know.

I'm six foot two, maybe six foot three.

Could I even have shrunk a bit to six foot one?

I'm not quite sure.

I've not measured myself in 20 years.

I am basically exactly six, one and a half.

I got measured for like a medical type thing.

So I am very much

6'1-6, 2.

Wow.

Okay.

I mean, is that what you say to people?

You don't say 6'1 ⁇ 1.5, do you?

Don't you?

No, exactly.

You can't.

But it's like, oh, where do I go?

I mean, I guess you round up typically.

I said I didn't want to dwell on this, but I'm going to.

When it comes to ages and the heights, let's deal with ages first.

What are the three ages that will be most traditionally incorporated in?

I think, would it, should it span a decade?

Like, is it that important?

Or could it be any age?

I think spanning a decade is a bit too important because if you're saying someone, he's what, 29, 30?

That's...

You've never span it.

No, he absolutely is.

No, I think it's too important.

But to me, like 24, 25, because you know, you're talking about someone who's still got lots of years left.

But also, just on heights, I do think as well, often heights are quite, like, people might have their heights wrongly listed or something.

So there's a bit more justification in doing the he's what he's saying.

60 years ago.

He's natural.

Yeah.

Whereas obviously ages are not.

Why are players?

Sometimes, but.

Why are players' weights on Wikipedia as well?

That's just mad.

Like, I mean, it's completely useless.

What age was it taken?

Is it preseason?

Like, what's going on?

I don't know why players have their weights on Wikipedia, but height-wise, Dave, it's absolutely that's this is more cast iron.

It's definitely six foot one, six foot two, six foot three, or you know, moving an inch either side, maybe.

Yeah, yeah, I think that works.

But I think to go back to what you were just saying about spanning a decade, I don't know.

I think when sometimes people are wanting to make a point about a player, and I've heard, I remember sort of people talking about Harry Kane like this.

I mean, mean, he's 31 now, but 31, 32.

And, but, but if you're trying to, when he was 29, you can kind of, people sort of go, he's 29, 30.

Like, because they're trying to make out this sort of over-the-hill sort of thing.

You know, there is sometimes there are slight ulterior motives, perhaps, to this.

It's not completely, I don't know what I'm doing.

People are trying to make a point that maybe they're trying to push something that isn't really there.

Well, one to look out for in that regard, then.

I was in the athletic office yesterday, and I was talking to Jacob Tanswell who covers Villa and Art DeRocher who covers Arsenal and we were talking about Ollie Watkins.

Now Ollie Watkins turns 30 in December.

So he is ripe for the 2930 depending on the argument because if you are making a why are they why are they interested in the you know he's he's 29 30 whereas you you know if you're trying to make it young you could be like he's what 20 28 29 you know he's still got a lot of years left in it he's in his prime yeah if only there was an iconic twitter exchange to reference that but there we are um i i did wonder dave if this is loosely linked to the pluralisation phenomenon among football pundits, where they sort of try and pad out their evidence by saying, you know, you're Arsenals, you're Chelsea's, you're Tottenham's.

And when these two phenomenons combined in brilliant style was when Gary Neville, I think he was,

I think he was being interviewed on the overlap for something.

And he was talking about his sort of regime.

And he says he often wakes up at the twos and threes and four o'clocks.

Yeah,

which is just a perfect combination of the two things.

Yeah, yeah, that is perfect.

Has anyone ever done four ever?

As in each, what is he, 26, 27, 28, 29?

It's definitely been, I think it's been reported to the pod.

I can't remember a specific example.

We'll have to go on listenfairplay.com to find it.

I don't know how you're going to find it on there, but it's definitely a habit.

Like, and when you add the fourth, it's so wrong.

It's so weird.

An extra 33% really tells in that situation.

It's too much.

Everyone's sitting there waiting for you to finish.

Lovely stuff from Adam Lewis.

We talked about that for a lot longer than I expected to.

The final fascination for this month comes from Callum Ewing.

Hi guys, fascination here.

One of the best feelings in football is when another manager or a rival supporter says that your team is the best they've played this season.

Just feels great.

Makes me feel warm.

A good example on this is when Liverpool beat Brentford this season.

Thomas Frank was saying it's the best team that we faced this season.

They're just something else.

Or when an opposition fan says, you're the best team that's come to our ground this season.

You were brilliant.

It's just the best feeling, almost better than winning a trophy.

I would put this very much at the epicenter, Dave, of classy touch culture.

You know, there is a healthy scarcity of this sort of praise that gets bandied about.

So when it is received, it will be a nice feeling.

And it does soften the blow of a defeat for your team, right?

Yes, but there's definitely moments where you feel it's genuine and it's well received and there's a healthy respect.

And that's great.

And also that, you know, we can go on to this, but there's also slight different aspects to it at like Sunday League sort of level as well.

But there's also moments where it's kind of weaponised as a as a sort of backhanded compliment or patronising thing.

Yeah, Pep Pep's done loads of people.

He's the king, these palace guys, wow, like he's kind of the king of that sort of like thanks, mate, after you've just battered us.

But also using it to like mock journalists as well.

Didn't he did he say last maybe this was Arteta?

Is it one of Arteta or Peps said last season that Chelsea are like, have you not been watching them?

They're the best attack in the league.

So,

yeah,

you know, it's kind of, you know, I know a bit more than you, mate.

Well, yeah, but I think there is something, um, I think it is more meaningful than a classy touch.

When a manager does it,

I think this is really spot on.

Like, there is something really uplifting about it, especially if they have lost, because then they're not doing it in a like patronizing way.

They're just doing it in a really genuine, kind of, yeah, they are really, really good.

And it does have an outsized effect.

Like, among Arsenal fans, they will often reference, like, Rob Edwards once basically gave this very kind of eloquent description of why Arsenal was so good.

And obviously, it means so much more coming from an opposition manager than it does, obviously, someone from your own ranks or even a pundit, because it's like he's experienced.

And I think as well, there's something

like almost that we're Thomas Frank does it.

I think Thomas Frank was referenced there, wasn't he?

And he does it very well.

There was an incident as well.

It's not quite the same thing, but he was asked, like, someone was trying to get him to do like celebration police.

And they were like, Thomas, Arsenal celebrating like the the world won the World Cup with that girl.

What did you think?

And he was like, Basically, he was like, off, like, they have every right to celebrate, and that's so potent because you're kind of like, see, that's a guy, that's like a neutral or even not neutral, and he's cross-bench support is good, isn't it?

Yeah, won't be able to say that next season,

yeah.

He's gonna have to delete all of those old uh, no, they were celebrating like they won the World Cup.

Like, I'd be hounded out if he, yeah, exactly.

Um, yeah, so I mean, part of the appeal, as we've established, Dave, is taking a crumb of comfort as a fan from a defeat.

Now, a Saturday 3 p.m.

defeat

it can ruin your weekend.

And there is always this kind of digging around for any kind of rationalisation of a defeat.

But if you can get that extra bonus of the other team saying, actually, do you know what?

You were really because you were really unlucky today.

And sort of fans on the train.

I think they play like that every week.

Yeah.

I thought you were unlucky today.

That wasn't a pen.

It wasn't a pen.

Yeah, that's great.

And yeah, you're right.

Whether it's on the train or maybe you're in a sort of friendly home and away pub after a match.

Or I've had a few situations where if you're walking out of a busy stadium and

the fans are sort of mingling and you might find yourself next to a member of the other team and you sort of strike up a bit of small talk.

I did that last season.

I ended up doing that with Burnley.

Burnley had beaten Watford towards the end of the season and were basically all but sealed their promotion.

Right.

And they were sort of chanting and giving it the biggin and i kind of started to chat to one of them and i think initially he thought i was gonna have you know give him some stick or or something but when i said oh i was like oh fair play mate like you know you've been classed this season how have you conceded so few guys are not ready for that are they yeah it was he was a bit disarmed initially he was like oh okay yeah and then we had a nice chat after it but just just on dave's point about weaponizing one of the most famous examples of that if you that led to the i would love it rant from keegan was fergie famously saying about leads like i don't i don't get it Whereas this team are really good.

They've been cheating their manager.

You know, he was using it completely for his own.

But do you remember what he was saying was that they're really good.

Like, if they actually could be us, like they are against us, they're a very good team.

So there can be lots of kind of elements to this.

I think when

there's a noticeable disparity between the giver and receiver of this back-handed praise, Dave, let's say with Burnley against Watford, he must have signed off your sort of conversation with, yeah, I think you'll be fine.

Next season, a couple of new, I think you'll be all right.

I think you'll be all right.

Good luck.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There was a mutual, you'll be fine.

I was trying to tell him, I think you'll do all right next season.

I think you'll be better.

And he was like, no, we'll come straight back down.

Trying to out-patronise each other.

It's like two managers patting each other, and he's going to get the last pattern.

There was another example of when this annoyed me.

It was the start of the 23-24 season.

The first game, Watford beat QPR 4-0.

We were 4-0 up at halftime.

Gareth Ainsworth was the QPR manager.

And after the game, in his post-match, he kind of excused the defeat by saying, Well, I think we've just played the champions there.

I was like, well, don't say that.

We're not going to be the champions.

Don't put that expectation on us.

And don't try and get out of jail because you're naming us the champions after one game when you were 4-0 down at half-time.

Or the slightly more unwieldy, Charlie.

You know, if you finish above Team X, you'll be winning this league.

Yeah, yeah.

But people always butcher it.

I always butcher it by saying, oh, to win this league, you've got to finish above Team X.

Well, yes, yes, yes, that's how it works.

But yeah, I'm not working it right.

As if it's like cryptic in some ways.

Just say you think they're going to win it.

All I'll say is if you finish above them, I think you're winning this.

It is pointlessly cryptic.

You're absolutely right.

So we inevitably must talk about Sunday league here, Dave.

At what point of the Sunday League sort of day from sort of second half to departing the changing rooms does this classy touch take place?

Someone popping their head around the changing room door?

Say, you guys were good today.

Unlucky.

Yeah.

Best team we played this season.

I think there are two scenarios that come to mind.

One for me would be in the sort of handshaking bit at the end of the game.

You might, particularly if you sort of know the opposition, like if you're the manager and you see the other, the other opposition manager who's playing as well, you might have a little chat more than you would with other players.

But there is that sort of, if it's been a good-natured game.

well-contested game, you can sort of hold your hands up as a team that like, fair play, lads, you deserve that today.

Best team we've played this season.

It's really cathartic i think it really helps take the edge off of defeat charlie especially when you go up to a player and say what a finish that was love loves your goal and you just think oh my god that's a real weight off my shoulders i feel really good i yeah i think it's more about well there are a couple of other avenues one is like about an individual player like fucking hell your number seven's good or something and if they're really good they just go yeah yeah

but there's also a thing of like it might not be as direct to praise you it might be more like a how the fuck is surreal madrid winning this league and then you can be like yeah I know, mate.

We've had a lot of injuries.

I couldn't get a team out in Feb, basically.

Like, you know, it's that kind of thing more than just you should be winning the league.

I think there's also sometimes you have like a bit of a pre-match conversation.

Sometimes this is towards the end of the season, so maybe you've already played a team and they beat you really handily.

And they might have gone up since, or as you say, Charlie, maybe you're saying, How come you haven't gone up?

But when you've played them once, maybe you've played them a few times over the years, you're a bit familiar with them, and you sort of have a nice little chat right early on before like the rest of the team have turned up.

Right.

How are you getting on this season?

Yeah, yeah, just sort of friendly, small talk.

I like to see this.

This is a very nice, wholesome conclusion to this month's fascinations.

We'll be back very shortly with your irritations.

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Welcome back to Football Clichés.

We've done the listeners fascinations for June.

It's time for your footballing irritations.

We start with a guy called Paranjayan Nepal from Nepal.

My irritation about football is when the attacking players do not think they are lowly enough to take a throw in, especially at the end of the game.

And I'd understand if the player, if the fullback was about to take a long throw-in, but normally the attacker just waits for the fullback to take a short throw in.

Just take it himself.

It's quite Roy Keene at the end there.

Take it yourself.

We've got listeners in Nepal, Dave.

This is tremendous.

Fair play.

Yeah.

Quizzy, Nepal.

Hello, Katman Do.

Charlie,

I kind of was trying to sort of envisage a situation in which I would detect this.

But obviously, throw-ins are right up there as one of the least glamorous tasks in a sort of regular football match.

I could see how, say, Killian Mbappe might find it vaguely insulting that he's got to do a regular throw-in to get the game started again.

Obviously, if it's a desperate situation, they need a goal.

He's going to take a quick one if he sees an option.

But otherwise, he's probably just thinking, someone might take a photo of me doing this.

I don't want it in my portfolio.

In my Getty.

Yeah, it's a bit embarrassing for him, isn't it?

It's like...

Being seen out with your parents on a weekend night or something.

I don't really want to be taking a throw in.

Someone else do this.

Imagine, Dave, like Mbappe taking a throw in and then, and I don't know, his agent or whatever, or his people putting it together in his Instagram sort of dump after the game in the four photos.

There's one of him taking a throw in.

You think, oh, no, how's that made it?

He's such a team player.

But then, yeah, someone like Jude Bellingham, I think, really showily would take a throw in in a kind of like, I'm a team player.

Don't worry, guys, I'm here to help.

And then other people would be like, oh, it's a bit for show.

Yes.

Yeah.

Dude Bellingham is very much an outlier in this situation.

Because it is a bit of a classy touch thing, isn't it?

It is a bit, Mark Noble cleaning the dressing room up after yourself.

It's like, don't worry, I don't think this is beneath me.

Why should it be?

I'm just as much part of this team as you are.

I'll take a throw.

It's about the crappest job that there is for an attacking player.

I mean, how many times a season will you see sort of generic attacker ex sort of being in a position where they receive the ball from a ball boy and then

sort of a, I don't know, a dutiful Mark Kucarella sort of trotting up and saying, oh, don't worry, I'll take this one.

Don't worry, I've got it.

Don't worry.

Why'd you come up?

A good option available to you is pretend you have an intention of taking it.

Look around.

Pretend you're sort of looking around for options.

You don't see any.

You're kind of like,

I wanted to, but I can't.

There's nothing on, so I'll just drop it.

Yeah.

Yes, but let it roll down your back.

Yeah, in reality, you never had any intention of taking it.

To underline the point about Mbappe, I have just searched on Getty for Mbappe throw-in.

There are three photos of him taking a throw-in for one for PSG, one for France, one in training, but there's also a child in the shots.

I don't know if he's sort of just messing messing around or something.

And then the fifth one, to underline how rarely it happens, is him throwing the first pitch at an LA Dodgers match.

Passing it to Danny Carver-Hall or something.

You take it, mate, will you?

Just lob it at him.

Wow.

I mean, empirical evidence there that Galen Mbappe just doesn't do throw-ins.

Opta, get on that.

Get him on his Wikipedia page.

I mean, at the other end of the scale, Charlie, goalkeepers taking throw-ins.

An absolute joy.

Yeah.

Pure MHD material.

The stadium should rise as one in applause when a goalkeeper takes the throw-in with his gloves on.

Horrendously.

Hard not to feel really nervous when that happens.

That just feels like a gaff in the making.

One in a million situation there.

I love that.

Are either of you sort of throw-inmen at Sunday League?

You can count the number of throw-ins I've taken in my Sunday League career on the palm of one hand.

Get so nervous about making a foul throw.

Yeah, I hate to take, like, to the point where in extremists I would sometimes play right back.

And I didn't mind.

I liked a lot of elements to it.

I liked how much space you got, that you could just kind of get up and down.

But the throw-in, I was like, oh, fuck, I really don't have to take throw-ins.

Literally is part of the job as a Sunday League full-back.

You will take 94% of the throw-ins, apart from the ones in the final third, where some other bloke who's insanely good at long throws for no reason.

Why are you good at long throws?

What is wrong with your body?

That's basically it.

I don't know.

I find them really hard, Dave.

They're actually quite painful to throw a ball really like mechanical hurts.

And everyone appealing for foul throws all the fucking time.

Shut up.

Stop appealing for this.

I'm so paranoid about foul throws.

Oh, God.

You're so exposed.

Yeah.

But also when you do one right and it goes away.

Oh, fuck.

Thank fuck for that.

Okay, that's one less I've got to worry about.

Charlie, you know, I have freely confessed that I'm shit at throw-ins.

Like, it's not a part of football I've ever been interested in being good at.

But there have been times where, you know, I'm in the right place to take it, so I will take it.

And I will go through the body language routine of someone who is good at throw-ins.

I will sort of lean forward and sort of get the ball sort of, you know, rubbed against my shirt to sort of dry it off.

And I will lean forward in that kind of hunched, I'm about to take the throne kind of way, take a sort of medium run-up, and then it would sort of limply throw it.

It will go over the head of the nearest player.

That's it.

That's all you need.

I mean, if you do that.

I mean, you know, success looks like basically not getting pink for a foul throw.

Anything else is a bonus.

And also, if a player, if a midfielder beckons you to come short and is like demanding it short, I can't

throw it down to you there.

I'm definitely going to do a foul throw if I do that.

It's going up the line every time.

Oh, if someone sort of wants it short, but they're not too close.

So to avoid that scenario, if you can just pop a little throw into them, that's fine.

I like that.

To me, that's like a crisp little five-yard pass.

I'm all for that.

I can do that.

To flip it on its head, though, as a manager on a touchline, I get annoyed when non-fallbacks take it upon themselves to take the throws quickly sometimes.

Not a long throw, because that's a separate thing, but you'll be shouting to the winger, leave it.

Leave it, leave it, leave it.

Calm it down.

Which you can't say.

Once again, whilst underlining the fact that I am essentially throw-in resistant, I have this ball under my desk here, which I use as a footrest.

It is a replica of the 1992 Premier League Call.

Of course it is.

Whenever I have it in my hands, I feel obliged to sort of pull it back and just feel the tension in my shoulders.

And at that moment, in this simulated scenario in my little room in my house, I reckon I could absolutely dilap it.

I feel like I've got the stored energy here to absolutely welly it.

And it just never happened.

So I don't know.

Maybe my PT's got something to work on, but in my head, I feel like I could do it.

But anyway, lovely stuff from Nepal.

Next one is from Sam Newton.

My niche footballing irritation is my brain's inability to adapt to watching football on TV at an oblique angle.

The classic scenario for this is when you're watching in a crowded pub, maybe a Big England game when you get there a bit late and all the good seats in front of the TV are taken.

Or Or I had one recently where I was watching a game at my in-laws who aren't huge football fans and we were having dinner but they said they'd put the game on in another room for me so I ended up watching it through a doorway, not at the perfect angle.

From this position the game looks so squashed, everything looks so painfully slow and the weird lopey strides that your players take just look really odd.

Logically I know this is happening but the emotional part of my brain just can't adapt.

The worst scenario for this is my instinctive reaction to every single backpass of a bloody hell, he's under hit that.

Surely a striker is about to storm in from right of frame, just nick it in front of the goalkeeper, take it round him and slot it home.

The other one is that I cannot stop myself getting angry at one of my team's fullbacks when a winger, whom I know to be rapid, ghosts past him at what appears on the screen to be three miles an hour.

Rationally, I know it's probably fair, but my subconscious will have a red mark against that defender for the rest of the game.

Been watching football for 25 years and still can't get over this.

Completely on board with this Dave I think I feel like we really need to raise awareness of a bleak angle pub TV watching it's it makes a game look shit really bad really hard to watch so sluggish it's really annoying and there's always that moment when yeah as he says if you're in a packed pub and it's a big tournament game England or Champions League or something and yeah you've got there late you haven't secured the best seats but you take what you can get there's a moment where for the first five minutes or so of you watching it from that angle, you try and square it with yourself.

You try and convince yourself that it's fine and that you're happy with it and you can kind of work it out.

But at some point, you just have to admit, fucking hell.

I might as well watch it on my phone.

It's it bears no resemblance to the actual product.

Charlie, I'm trying to work out what the actual angle is in specific degrees that would be the threshold for me saying, no, fuck it.

I'm not watching this.

This is a disaster.

You know, when you know, I mean, you just know, don't you?

It's too much.

I would say, I mean, 45 degrees, I think I could handle it.

Anything less than if you're into your high 30s that's when it starts to become oh no this isn't happening so yeah i'd say yeah 40 under 40 degrees is where i'm out the pub i'm finding someone else but yeah dave we talk about obscured views and pillars in pubs and and you know tall people being in your way and all sorts of stuff and then that sort of random patch of floor where nobody stands and then someone does try to stand there and then they realize that that's you're blocking about 58 people's views but no one ever talks about the angle do they why don't they talk about it well i suppose probably relatively rare situation because most.

It depends though.

I suppose for a tournament, you could end up with a pub that doesn't normally show football and just

put up a projector or just one TV and they're not kitted out for that.

A projector?

A projector?

It's a cute angle.

I think I'd actually rather die than watch a football game that way because you've got a really faded screen in the sunlight and

I was going to say projectors in and of themselves.

That's a whole other entry.

I think, oh God.

The folded bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The angle.

It's not been calibrated correctly.

It's like a trapezoid.

I know what you mean.

Yeah, yeah.

Awful.

I mean, obviously, you know,

this would ruin a good game that you're invested in, Charlie.

It would completely obliterate a game that you're watching as a neutral just out of, you know, out of border.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, if you're watching a mid-table 12pm Premier League clash and you're watching it from an acute angle in a pub,

I couldn't get through the 90, that's for sure.

Storming straight out.

Yeah.

I mean, the scenario that Sam Newton has painted here, Dave, of having to endure this at the in-laws, standing up in the doorway.

Persona non grata.

I know, just surely, if you care that much, just bite the bullet and say, I'm just going to go and watch it in the other room.

Is that all right for a bit?

You know, try and watch it through a door.

That's the worst of all worlds.

Throw a pair, Sam Newton.

Stab your authority on this marriage.

There is an offshoot of this which is on my long list of MHDs, and that's

so say that you're in a group and you're in the pub, and you

there's

four of your five are in a position to be able to watch the big screen front on and they can see it, but you're like on the end, and maybe you are at an angle and you're the one that can't really see the biggest screen.

But there are other screens in the pub that you can watch, and you have to decide whether to commit to one screen.

And you're not quite sure, do I go for that one?

It's a bit further away, but the picture is a bit better.

Do I go for the one that's closer, but my neck's at a bit of an angle, but I can see it a bit better better because it's closer.

And

you sort of, it's hard sometimes to choose one and stick with it.

Totally.

And you're in a monologue, keep saying the other thing.

It's like, no, I'm definitely going to stick with it.

This is better.

This is better.

Don't worry about it.

It's a bit far, but it's better.

And they'd be like, no, it's too bad.

Have people noticed that I'm switching screens?

Like, are specific phases of play more conducive to this screen?

And you're looking over people, like, but do they think I'm staring at them, but I'm actually staring just behind them?

I just can imagine it.

Oh god, awful.

Sam Newton, you open up a paranoid can of worms here.

So we are finally at our final listener irritation for June and it comes from James Aldrich.

Hello lads, an irritation that really bothers me every couple of years is back.

It's major tournament summer.

England under 21s lost their third group game against the Germans before progressing anyway and going on to beat Spain in the quarters.

They might go on to win the tournament.

This is horrible.

I propose that winning a major international tournament, having lost a group game, should result in an asterisk being placed against that nation's name in the history books.

It's messy, it's unsatisfying.

I'd actually argue it's illegitimate.

I think actually losing a group game should result in immediate elimination, although I appreciate that's impractical for kind of tournament purposes.

At Euros or a World Cup, you have to go seven games unbeaten to avoid this fate.

It's not a big ask for the supposed best team in the competition.

In the Under 21 tournament, there's only six games, six games unbeaten.

Failing to do so not only looks horrible when it's written down, it gives credence to this nonsense that we're the real world champions, a claim that's used by, for example, the citizens of Zurich in 2010 or Riyadh in 2022.

I would literally prefer a Portuguese-style three draws from three situation in ALA 2016 than losing a game in the group stage.

Stay unbeaten.

You are supposed to be the best team.

In the Premier League, if you stayed six games or seven games unbeaten, it would be not

even a relevant discussion point.

You'd be pleased to know this extensive other sports I've got a loose interest in.

England 2019, Cricket World Cup.

You lost a quarter of your games.

It's pathetic.

Sorry for the rant.

It really bugs me.

I mean, I really like this clinical approach to this sort of thing, Charlie.

I mean, we love applying asterisks to certain teams' achievements for all sorts of reasons these days.

But teams winning major tournaments despite losing a group game is unsatisfying.

And there should be, not an asterisk, but

there should be an element of doubt cast upon it all.

I don't know.

I'm glad he mentioned the Portugal three draws, because I found that annoying.

And I think...

Do you think it's more annoying?

Do you find it more unsatisfying than a team losing one group game?

I think so, because I think especially they drew over 90 minutes their round of 16 match and possibly their quarterfinal match.

Right.

So I think they were particularly, they didn't win in the 90, their first five, which did feel like...

And then the final, they didn't either, did they?

Examine Twitch time.

I think it was just Wales they beat.

That felt more annoying.

I don't mind the losing because I think, especially...

Like in that Spain example or Argentina, it was their first game.

And I quite like the fact that then they had no margin for error, really, from that point on

and kind of had to turbocharge their way.

Although in the Spain case, that obviously did have the effect of making them play a bit more conservatively and probably contributed to why they kind of 1-0 and 2-0 their way to that tournament so it had an effect but those are the terms you know those are the terms when you enter so it doesn't bother me can't argue with that um i suppose the case against um teams drawing all three games and going through as as as being more um acceptable dave is that that that that's really the hallmark of a team being really jammy and squeezing through whereas you you could you could go through quite comfortably by losing one game and winning two.

Like, it's just a blip.

So maybe it doesn't really carry the narrative weight in that respect.

No, and it's something that people would do well to remember, I think, as well.

When it comes round to tournaments, a group stage defeat in the opening game, in particular, is often seen as a complete catastrophe for England.

And it's like, well, you know, big teams lose in the group stages all the time.

It's fine.

I think there's...

Where do you stand on the difference between losing your first game a la Argentina and Saudi Arabia and Spain and Switzerland or your last game when you're already through?

Clearly, that is a difference.

I mean, like, Europe forgotten about.

France has lost over.

France and Netherlands at Euro Tasman were both through already and then played each other.

Yeah, completely.

Oh, yeah, especially if you've rotated your squad and you've got Bernard Diamed playing or something like that, then it doesn't matter.

Yeah, Greece lost to Russia in their final group game at Euro 2004.

Though they didn't know they could.

That was a legitimate.

Oh, okay.

So hot.

They were trying.

They thought they needed to, but they got done a favour.

But they're biting all their arms and legs off for second place in that group anyway, though, aren't they?

So, to a certain expect, probably all right.

Yeah, I mean, the most famous example narratively, Dave, is West Germany losing 8-3 to Hungary in the World Cup in 1954 and then going on to beat them in the final, which is, you know, a lot went on in that respect.

So

I think we can count that out as a kind of asteroid.

I mean, why should we, really?

I mean, Pushkus did them over in the first game.

So

yeah, I think that's.

But I don't think it, I think that's in the like, like if that was nowadays and anyone was, you know, that's in the classic like, oh cry more or wore a trophy if people were whinging about it because it kind of is like sorry lads that's irrelevant well done you won the first game I think there are there are examples of teams losing group games then going on to win the tournament where the defeat sort of takes on a quite romantic hue like West Germany were beaten by East Germany in 1974 Charlie I think that's just a quite that's just a nice little chapter nice little mini sort of twist in the whole thing they still deserve to win the tournament yeah or there was the thing the like Spain losing to Switzerland meant that New Zealand were the only team that went unbeaten in the the 2010 World Cup.

Yeah, I like those little quirks.

Which is the converse situation, Dave.

You know, New Zealand famously going through the World Cup without losing in that edition is a crap stat.

And like, they shouldn't be necessarily hailed for it, should they?

I don't know.

I think you've got to put it in context.

You know, they were the Auckland city of that tournament, I suppose.

I'm rethinking about how much I do think this is an asterisk, actually, Charlie.

Maybe it, you know, it's good to have a bit of fallibility in your journey along the way.

Because if you think about, Dave touched on this a moment ago, if you lose your first group game, there's that sudden kind of sort of root and branch review that goes on and you bounce back from it.

You lose your second game, that's dangerous because that implies you're on the downturn.

Losing your third game could well be explained by some rotation.

You're already through some simple permutations.

So they're different scenarios, but you don't want to lose your second game is basically the left.

That's the message.

Yeah,

I'm kind of on board with it because I think you...

It's about playing the system to an extent.

It's true, actually, isn't it?

Because I don't think any of the examples we're talking about are second games.

I think they are all first and thirds.

Right.

Because first, yeah, like you can get surprised.

You can be not quite ready.

And like Saudi Arabia can just pull something out of the bag and really surprise you and you've lost.

And then you get your act together.

Like winning your first and third, but losing the second feels like a quite strange scenario.

It is strange.

I remember Germany did that, I think, at the 2010 World Cup, and it felt really jarring for that reason because it was like, like, but you've had your first game.

That's the one where you sort of blow off the cobwebs and whatever.

Now you should have sorted yourself out.

You've got no right losing here to Serbia or whatever it was.

I mean,

you know, in our hurried research to do this before we record it, it's happened more times in World Cups and Euros than I thought it might have done.

So as you say, Charlie, maybe sort teams can build this in to their journey.

That's just how tournaments work.

That's a really mundane and boring explanation for it, but it is nevertheless true.

But I guess, like, just to frame it this way, I mean, imagine how how pathetic we would feel as england fans if we lost in the final to a team but had beaten that team in the opening group game and we were saying oh but we did we did beat them in the first group game be like yeah well done lads like you lost in the final that's what matters like you know i don't think we'd be making that or if we'd just won and the team we'd beaten was making that argument like yeah well done france yeah you beat us in a group game didn't matter you could see it hailed as a masterstroke after the tournament like it's

in the long route yeah exactly you know he engineered that first defeat defeat just to send a message to his players.

Didn't Rafa Benitez?

He got really paranoid about using good set piece routines and certain ways of playing in matches before like a big Champions League target.

He's like, don't waste it now.

So, yeah, maybe it'd be something like that.

Yeah, I'm not terribly against teams meeting in group stage and then going on to meet in the final.

But yeah, if you lose and if you wore your away kit in the defeat in the group stage, it doesn't count.

I think it's just world.

No one will sort of connect the two.

That's quite right.

James Aldridge, though, is going to trouble him for a long time to come.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare.

Thank you.

Thanks for the tremendous correspondence for this.

We've saved a lot for future episodes, but keep them coming for July as well.

Thanks, everyone, for listening.

We'll be back on Tuesday.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sport Social Podcast Network.

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