Perfectly-timed crowd noise, Jacko Wilsheri & managers who qualify as "glorified PE teachers”

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I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as as you like.

Is Gascoigne gonna have a crack?

He is, you know.

Oh, I say

brilliant.

Absolutely incredible.

He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was eye without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip.

Oh, I say,

it's amazing.

He does it tame and tame and tame again.

Break up the music!

Charge a glass!

This nation is going to dance all night!

A big landmark for the cliché's pod stalwarts, the most presentable sounding chance of the Premier League season, some perfectly timed crowd noise, semi-accidental Andy Gray at the snooker, confirmation of the length of Kevin De Bruyne's shrift, which managers fit the criteria to be glorified PE teachers, can you smash the 100-point barrier if you get exactly 100 points?

If Jack Wilshire was from Albania and Richard Keys on everything, brought to your ears by Gohanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Cliches.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the adjudication panel.

Joining me, Charlie Eccleshare.

How are you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Alongside you, David Walker, manager of Ribblesdale Brovers, who have survived relegation mathematically.

Yes, the JSF Plumbing and Heating League 4 relegation battle.

I'm never going to tire of this.

It's been quite hotly contested this season.

Yeah.

So it's one of those situations where we're actually, if you look at just the points, you go, oh, we've got 17 points and there are a couple of teams on like 13, there's one on 10, but they've got a few games left.

But could they all play each other?

So none of them can win all the games.

Love that.

And there's one club as well who've got a sort of pending walkover, which I think will be added to the tally at some point.

But there was a situation briefly after Sunday which we lost 7-1 on Sunday after being 1-0 up at half-time.

Wow.

We got absolutely taken to the cleaners in the second half by just a much better team, Oldfields.

They just completely passed us off the park and just, yeah, it wasn't, it was no contest really.

But there was a moment on Sunday where Balam Mariners, who are currently occupying the ninth spot, the second relegation spot in the division, the FA website had them down as beating league leaders Argentina FC 2-1.

We're playing Ballum next week in our last game.

So I was thinking, fuck, fuck, they're going to be bang up for it now.

We can still go down technically, but it was an error.

It was an admin error.

Actually, they lost 2-1 to Argentina.

Story of the season for you, lot.

Incredible stuff.

Speaking of mathematics, huge, huge moment for the football clichés pod.

As of today, I, Adam Hurry, Charlie Eccleshare, and David Walker have made 1,001 combined clichés appearances.

What a moment.

It's a lot of experience.

Yeah.

It's just a back back three as well.

Yeah.

Get Nick involved.

Yeah.

Never made a tackle.

Never had a single tackle between us in those 1001 combined appearances.

What a moment.

Other news.

Football cliché's quiz live in Leeds on June the 12th.

That is now sold out.

Sold out in a matter of hours as well.

So on the basis of that, we will look at some other cities in due course whenever we can schedule them in.

It's going to be great, assuming it goes well, because Leeds has history for tech issues.

Yeah, but we've really turned our situation around in Leeds recently.

Like Daniel Farker.

That last live show, whisper it quietly, but the lead show of the last tour.

Pound for pound, probably the best of the lot, I think.

Right up there.

Right up there.

It's just the crowd right on top of you, weren't they, Charlie?

And that's what you want.

Certainly, some demons were exercised.

Yeah.

Let's crack on.

The adjudication panel begins with this from Donnie Amui, who's watching Match of the Day, Arsenal versus Bournemouth, Guy Mowbray on commentary as Evan Nilsson spurns an early chance.

You can't ask for better better as a centre-forward than a cross like this.

Kirker says, put it on a plate and gift-wrapped it.

The question is, Dave, what food could possibly be both eaten on a plate and wrapped as a present?

I mean, that is, I mean, that's an exceptionally presentable chance to have both applied to it.

What about a really nice gourmet burger that would come in sort of wrapped fancy wrapping?

That is wrapped, isn't it?

Is it gift-wrapped?

I don't know if old Salt Bay does burgers, but I can imagine that his wrapping, if he did, would be, you know, pretty fancy.

Yeah, so you've gone down the kind of order at a restaurant, which makes a lot of sense.

I was imagining someone actually being presented with a sort of food-based present at a birthday or something.

And I was imagining the only foods that you could really do that kind of transport-wise, would be a kind of tightly packed ham or something.

If you'd gone to Spain and bought some delicious ham or something, and this guy would, this guy loved his Jamoni Berrico, and you kind of presented it to him.

It's like, what do you you give to the man who has everything?

And you wrapped up some ham.

He unwraps it.

Oh my god, you got me my favorite ham.

Thanks so much.

But it's already on the plate though, as well.

So he can get

just stuck in.

Yeah, it's like a sort of starter for him.

I think the only thing I can think of that was both gift-wrapped and on a plate simultaneously is when

in classic times, an actress would on stage would get a platter of fruit gift-wrapped in her dressing room, which I believe is

like

sort of

like a basket with sort of film over the top.

Exactly.

But with a bow, crucially, that makes it gift wrapped.

Anyway,

on a more footballing note, Charlie, what makes a chance more presentable?

Being on a plate or gift-wrapped?

That's a hard one.

Is it?

I mean,

I think so.

I mean, they're both...

They're both such good chances.

I think

gift-wrapped implies.

Gift is more of a...

Gift-wrapped is more.

It is kind of another level.

Yeah, but you've got more work to do with the wrapping.

You've got to unwrap it.

I can't believe how early you've gone.

If it's on a plate, just tuck straight in.

And he missed it anyway.

Actually, do you know what?

I don't think the chance, I mean, as good as the cross was from Kirkz, Dave, I don't think the chance actually qualified as either of those things.

Because he was stretching a bit, wasn't he?

Yeah.

He was a fucking header.

If he'd scorned it, it would have been a fucking amazing header.

Yeah.

I also think that there needs to be a slightly higher bar for headed chances that are said to be on a plate.

I agree with that.

You've got to hang it up.

Yeah.

You've got to hang up across it to really be on a plate.

If you've got a, you know, Evan Nielsen was at full stretch, as you said.

Next up for Match of the Day is Conor McNamara Match of the Day duty for Manchester City versus Wolves.

Now, it's not what Conor McNamara says specifically here, it's more about the pedantic reaction from our listeners, which we'll get on to in a moment.

Jeruby Doku.

Oh, he's gone around Doherty like a ghost.

Kevin DeBrano, Manchester City, take the lead.

Baby Drums asks, Charlie, Conor McNamara has just described Doku as having gone round Doherty like a ghost.

Is this a thing?

And if it is, is he the ghost?

Or is Doherty?

He's the ghost.

So Doku's the ghost.

Okay, so that's been established.

Baby Drums then asks, Dave, I guess you can ghost pass someone, but isn't that done without the ball?

Can you ghost pass someone with the ball?

I think that's all right, isn't it?

Typically not.

So it's more of a kind of

ghosted in.

Yeah, no one's realised you're there and it's like, No, hang on.

No, no.

Ghosting in is done without the ball, obviously.

It's a back post scenario.

We've done this before, but you can ghost past someone with the ball because it's not a particularly sophisticated dribble, Dave.

And it's just you just can outmaneuver them, essentially.

You've made it look really easy.

Yeah.

And, I mean, it should be, he's gone through Docherty like a ghost.

The ghost doesn't need to go around him.

It doesn't need to, but it can.

I know what he's getting at here.

In a sort of like comic, in like a Disney film, I can imagine a sort of comedy scenario in which a baddie or something is being fooled by a ghost and is kind of looking from left to right and sort of feels this presence going around.

A ghost is toying.

You can't tell what it is.

A little bit, yeah.

And

so I sort of can see, like, Doherty here is a bit like a kind of hapless, not even the main villain, like a sort of lackey who's sort of being outmaneuvered as the ghost gets towards the main villain.

Okay, but it's important that all ghosts listening, please remember, you can go through someone.

You don't need to go around them.

Right, but Conor McNamara, you are essentially off the hook.

This is great.

Came from Alastair Smout, who is listening to Brighton vs.

Newcastle on 5 Live.

They're handing back to commentator John Akers at the Amex after the 220 at Newmarket.

Now it's a 4 out of 10 pun coming up and a 9 out of 10 synchronisation with the crowd.

The second impressive winner of the day, Cinderella's dream.

My word, she's got it.

That was a tremendous win.

She passes the line four lengths clear of the Guineas winner, Imalka.

Still awaiting our opening goal with you at the Amex, John.

Yeah, just Cinderella's dream just winning after Liberamento had lost his slipper as well so that's

scary very apt

the groan is so good but then also the way from people who actually did enjoy the joke tremendous timing

he doesn't acknowledge it though does like he he acknowledged he what he because at first when I heard it I thought he meant it's fitting that reaction but he actually just is still going with his slipper thing no he doesn't acknowledge it at all I mean the clip does go on to say he does reiterate that the crowd are groaning because the ball's gone out of play, but I don't think there's any recognition that the crowd noise synchronized with his lame pun.

I think you can hear John Akers losing confidence in the pun sort of halfway through as well, which is

always a favourite of mine, actually.

I like when people go for it and they realise, oh, no.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Welcome to the podcast.

Where am I going with this?

Yeah.

Next up, this came from Craig Charlie.

It's Judd Trump versus Mark Williams, the semi-final at the Crucible.

And John Virgo Virgo unleashes his inner Andy Gray.

Yeah, I was thinking, like you, he's not going to be on anything here, and all of a sudden, this red appeared from nowhere.

I said, fancy potting me.

Amazing.

Now, it's close to Andy Gray's kind of mid-90s speciality.

I don't think it's quite aggressive enough.

Andy Gray would say, go on, pop me, wouldn't he?

Pop me, yeah.

Yeah, I was thinking about this because you do often hear about in lots of sorts of ball that's just begging to be hit.

And he kind of does take that on.

you know it's a little i mean it's not quite at the begging stage but it is quite it's making the ball is making themselves very presentable come on fancy potting me yeah absolutely charlie's right here dave i think snooker lends itself to this just as much as football ever has i mean the balls are there to be potted uh the idea that you can sort of add some personification to this is just great yeah it's nice but it's not you're right it's not um quite as emphatic as Gray would have gone with it because he's sort of leading leaving a little bit of element of doubt still in there.

Fancy potting me?

I'm up for it.

Do you want to, do you want to go for it?

Is it on a plate?

I don't know.

I don't think it is.

No.

Suppose John Virgo and Andy Gray, they sort of, you know, there's a kinship there, I think, between the two, isn't there?

They'll have met at

1998, I reckon.

Andy Gray must have been on.

Would Andy Gray have been on You've Been Framed?

No.

No, no, no, celebrity, You've Been Framed.

Yeah, unless there was a celeb version, then possibly.

I know how You've Been Framed works, I promise.

Right, next up, as the end of his Premier League career surely beckons, a reminder that Kevin De Bruyne doesn't give a shit.

You're only the second player under Pep Guardiola to get 250 goals or assists, and the other one was some bloke called Leonel Messi.

So I don't know if you're aware of that fact, but how special is it to sort of get those amazing milestones again?

Don't care, to be honest.

Now, Charlie, presenting De Bruyne with a semi-tenuous stat like that was never going to be on the cards.

But to throw in a some bloke called Leonel Messi, he's not going to wash with Kevin De Bruyne.

He's not going to give you anything.

And I'm really glad to see that particular construction getting the withering treatment it deserves.

it's one of those things where it's kind of like what why are we doing it like what's it meant to do you know it's i mean i guess it's gonna from summaries get like a sort of god yeah that is clever because you know we we know who he is but it's like it's what is the best case scenario from that joke it's like you're getting either an eye roll you're mainly probably going to get an eye roll but yeah you might get a small titter and he and speaking of like losing confidence he because he says it and he's aware of like, oh, should I, I don't want to leave too long a pause for laughter because that makes it look like i'm expecting it so he then kind of hurries past it in like a you know not that i'm suggesting that's really funny but yeah de Bruyner is not a good person to try that with like we've sort of seen that before I feel like Dave you got a hint of a very polite

from de Bruyner and that was it yeah that's it the audio possibly sounds a little bit harsher than the video there is not really a smirk, but there's just there's the merest hint of like when he says I don't care like he does sort of smile just takes the edge off it a little bit but yeah you're right Charlie Like, I'm sure De Bruyne has been in these situations before.

Like, he is one of the shortest shrifters you are likely to find, I think.

And you're right as well.

What is like, all these questions are essentially designed to elicit headlines or to elicit clips, you know, to get to, or if, or if you're like first off the bat to kind of get to the heart of the story.

Questionless questions.

Let's not, let's also reiterate.

But what's the, what, what are they hoping for here?

What could he have said that would have generated some sort of shareable content from this?

Charlie, I honestly think in a post-match interview context, all sorts of essentially questions wrapped up as praise should just be banned.

Not for integrity purposes, just for watchability purposes.

We had Cole Palmer and Moises Kaisedo were interviewed after Chelsea vs.

Liverpool, and we had the sort of secondary element of this, which was not bad, is he?

Times about five.

It's like, just come on.

That I mind less.

But I'm being, I specifically mean that construction of the sun bloke.

Cool.

Yeah.

I don't mind.

I mean, I guess with that,

with the just asking the question, there's a reasonable upside of, I mean, De Bruyne could say, I mean, I guess the best case is that he says something like, you know, if I could ever be half the player he is, I've had a hell of a career, which maybe some people would find interesting.

Like,

some people, there's probably an unlimited amount.

You know, Messi has such fanboys that there's probably, you know, De Bruyne appraising Messi would get a reasonable attraction.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Extreme example.

He could have said, yeah, I am aware, actually.

Yeah, I've been focusing on this and I'm really glad to finally reach the milestone.

I mean, I've struggled to warm to Kevin De Bruyne, not in a particularly significant way, but the fact that he's completely dismissed the concept of goal involvements is incredible to me.

So I'm fully on board with him after all.

Now, this came from Oliver McCabe, Ebercci Eze's penalty for Palace against Forrest on Monday night, as heard from the stands at Selhurst.

I don't think I've ever heard this before.

Listen carefully, and you might hear the fan reaction as he stutters in his run-up.

I mean, this is unprecedented to me, Charlie.

Like a micro reaction of a run-up for a penalty.

It was already framed perfectly by the fucking hit it, which is superb.

And obviously, this is on the back of his penalty miss against Newcastle, which was lame, obviously.

But a mid-run-up groan from the old-fashioned football men is superb.

Yeah, I mean,

this is like a team playing out from the back equivalent condensed into a penalty.

It's just like, stop all this nonsense.

And as you say, the fact that he missed that one against Newcastle.

And as I say, Dave, I'd never heard this before, and it did make me think.

And it was really audible, not just there, but on the Sky Sports sort of coverage as well.

That could put a penalty taker off.

Yeah.

Mid-stutters going, oh, what?

Oh, no.

This has really gone down badly.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the crowd, if he had missed that, they would have had to have taken some responsibility.

Well, yeah, but or do you give them praise?

Because he does, in the end, hit it properly.

So maybe he heard it.

Maybe he was planning on doing a sort of similar silly thing.

You can't change your mind on the penalty, Charlie.

That's the last thing you want to do.

He did say after the game, and they asked him about the pen, he said, I saw the keeper still hadn't moved.

when I paused, so I just knew I had to just hit it.

So I don't think he did hear the crowd.

Maybe he did, but didn't say.

But like, it's, in a way, I'm, maybe I'm surprised we haven't heard this before because this, this sort of penalty technique is now very widespread and has been around for a long time.

Maybe there has been an example that we haven't heard, but I wonder if it will be, I wonder if it will continue, wonder if it will become a thing.

But his, his, his run-up last night was particularly pronounced, wasn't it?

Like the

really small steps, and it's like he was really pushing it here.

I'm sure there was a thing where, because, well, two players.

One was Pogba, who used to do, do you remember, he used to do really exaggerated run-ups where he'd sort of be like dancing on his tiptoes and would take ages.

And I'm sure there would have been people, even if it wasn't necessarily audible.

Yeah, that's long enough for it to create its own narrative in its own right.

Yeah, definitely.

And I bet, because Jorginho, do you remember?

He started missing a few for Chelsea at a time when he was already a bit of a lightning rod.

I'm sure there would have been people being like...

You can't do it mid-hot spoke, can you?

Ah!

Because it was.

Just

stop popping.

Oh, dear.

Right.

Quick footballers names in things for you.

One of the most British news stories of the last couple of years was the felling of the tree at Sycamore Gap.

The trial for that has begun and one of the reports said Richard Wright, Casey.

Actually, I only just noticed Richard Wright.

Bloody hell.

Yeah, I know.

Wow.

Richard Wright, Casey, says Alice Whistle Price, who was on a walking holiday, arrived at Sycamore Gap around 5.20pm on Wednesday, September 27th, 2023, in wind and rain as a storm approached.

She took a photo of the tree then, proving it was still standing, then as it had been over a hundred years, the court is told.

Mr.

Wright says, at 9.46 the next morning, Thursday 28th of September, it was reported to police that the tree had been damaged.

P.C.

Barini was the first police officer at the scene that morning.

Pete Rogers says, I'm currently imagining a world where Fabio Barini quit football to become a diligent rural crime policeman dedicated to protecting the countryside he fell in love with on Weirside.

Exactly.

PC Barini.

It's like it's

Heartbeat, like a remake.

Yeah.

Well, he has got that connection.

Obviously, playing for Sunderland, it's right up in that part of the world, isn't it?

Maybe.

Can't believe I didn't spot Richard Wright.

Richard Wright goes under the radar for this sort of thing, I guess.

Well, he's made a career of going under the radar, really.

The two first choice KCs weren't available.

Fulfilling that KC homegrown quota.

Lovely stuff.

Right, let's end part one with this.

On the back of the news, that Trent Alexander Arnold's Liverpool exit has been confirmed by the man himself.

The worst kept secret in football, I think it is fair to say that he is going to join Real Madrid.

Kieran Lawrence writes in, Charlie, and says, when they unveil Trent at the burnabelle, do you think they'll make him do keepy-ups?

Will he be allowed to spray 60-yard passes to random staff members dotted around the pitch?

Just not a keepie-uppy man.

I mean, of all the players to try and break the tradition, this might well be it.

Although Becks would have been that guy as well.

I mean, I know Bex is...

Did he do

keepy-ups?

I don't remember those.

Maybe, but he wasn't skillful, was he?

So, you know, famously.

So he's not someone who's going to turn up and be doing that.

They should have got him just doing a crossbar challenge or something.

But yeah,

I think that would be a better use of trend.

They should make them more bespoke.

Yeah, tailored to their specific skill set.

You're absolutely right.

You know, have like when Cristiano Ronaldo joined, he could have just scored loads of amazing headers or something.

I'm just looking at Beckham's formal unveiling as a Real Madrid player, and it was actually like indoors in

a theater, almost like a fashion show runway that they've got here.

And he comes out and he's wearing like this pastel blue suit.

I remember that suit.

He's got the blonde ponytail.

He's got a blonde ponytail at this point.

That's right.

So there doesn't appear to be any keepy-ups at any point.

But I think you're right, Charlie.

Like, Crossbar Challenge could be a really good shout for one of these.

It's a bit too soccer AM for a Real Madrid unveiling, isn't it?

Trent would nail it.

Keepy-ups are a bit silly, though.

I don't know why they force them to do it.

Meanwhile, 30-time cliché podman James Moore says he will definitely just have Trent on his shirt at Real Madrid.

That's going to happen.

It's definitely going to happen.

You think?

Yeah, I do.

I do think.

The floodgates have opened for this so much recently that i could just see it happening trent

it would be quite marketable

popular with the fans having to pay less per letter as well no that's not a thing anymore

they'll write in dave you know they will

i don't think he will though i i don't i don't i think he's still despite all the all this noise around this situation i think he's still humble enough to not go down that road l trent who's going to be who's going to push that I wonder if he'll end up with a Spanish nickname or something.

I don't know.

Anyway, that's the end of part one.

We'll be back with the second half of our 1001st combined cliché's appearance very shortly.

Charlie Sheen is an icon of decadence.

I lit the fuse and my life turns into everything it wasn't supposed to be.

He's going the distance.

He was the highest paid TV star of all time.

When it started to change, it was quick.

He kept saying, no, no, no, no, I'm in the hospital now, but next week I'll be ready for the show.

Now.

Charlie's sober.

He's going to tell you the truth.

How do I present this with a class?

I think we're past that, Charlie.

We're past that, yeah.

Somebody call action.

AKA Charlie Sheen, only on Netflix, September 10th.

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Welcome back to Football Clichés.

A reminder that you can get in touch at football cliches at gmail.com.

You can DM me on Twitter or Instagram or Blue Sky or you can get involved on our Reddit page, which is holding steady, Dave.

at around 28,000 members.

That edges us just ahead of Animals Looking at Food, Portsmouth, Millie Bobby Brown, brazilian painting lactose intolerance arcade fire coca-cola and urban farming the full gamut of reddit experiences there what what are you doing on the coca-cola reddit page like what what is there for you what are you going there for when they i guess if they like release new products would you go on

there must be coca-cola like historians maybe you've got yourself a one of the original bottles limited edition yeah fair enough yeah but to be fair the first post i went on there to have a look look at was someone found some blue Coca-Cola in a or blue bottle of Coca-Cola.

I'm like, wow, this is amazing.

Fair play.

Everyone's got a niche.

Now, Footy Quiz writes in, Dave, and says, I've just read an article that referred to Spurs as already out of both cup competitions.

While we can surely agree on how ridiculous this is in May, at what point is it okay to beat a club with this particular stick?

That's a February thing.

That's a February thing, isn't it?

Yeah.

Well, I mean,

finals.

It is, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, obviously January, it's totally...

I mean, you can't be out of the FA Cup until January if you're a big club.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

So if you say it then, then, yeah, obviously.

Yeah, I think February.

Because, yeah, by March, the League Cup's been.

Yeah, you need to have gone out in the League Cup early doors in the second or third round or something.

And yeah, lose.

Yeah, I don't think even past the fourth round.

I think fourth round would be okay for a big club, as long as you don't get to the business end of the League Cup.

I mean, I think the second and or third round will be before Christmas anyway.

So you have to.

The League Cup, yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

So maybe if you're if you're one of the big clubs with a history, you know, Man City being foremost among these with a history of getting to the final or semi-final, maybe the fifth round.

If you lose in the fifth round, you could say, oh, they're already at the FA Cup.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But when is the fifth round?

Is the fifth round up before?

Mid-Feb.

Mid-Feb, yeah.

That's great knowledge from you.

Wow.

A real gun to my head situation.

I'm dead.

I'm gone.

It's often a kind of like February half term around that sort of time.

I mean,

it gets moved around now, so you know, who knows?

Yeah, that's true.

Generally, then.

But it's because it's often it will be a thing if it's a team, because often a team might exit Europe, and then it's like, you know, they're let's say they exit Europe in the kind of first knockout phase.

You might hear it then of kind of like, and they're already out of both cups, and you know, the league forms stuttering because it's a kind of like you know, club in crisis type situation.

Yeah, exactly.

This must feel quite familiar to you, Charlie.

Yeah, I mean, it would happen where it would sort of all fall apart in the space of a few weeks, you know, and cup exits are great.

Cup exits are great because no, you know, they are like the League Cup, especially, no one gives a shit about when you go out of the League Cup unless you go out in like the semis and then it becomes this

huge deal.

Yeah, yeah, but a massive up to the League Cup even is kind of a way with playing reserves.

It's long read fodder, isn't it, League Cup?

It's never the headline, but it's part of the problem.

Yeah, yeah, seeds will be.

Simmering issues.

Yeah, definitely.

Right, next up, Chris asks, Dave, have you ever discussed on the pod what makes certain managers be labelled as PE teachers slash glorified PE teachers?

I've noticed it's only happened in the last few years.

In my mind, Oligona Solskjaer was the first to be called this.

I've also seen certain Spurs fans say it about Ange Postacoglu.

It can't just be down to being a poor manager.

We've had loads of them and you don't hear it with everyone.

So it begs the question, what makes people feel it's the appropriate term?

I assume with Solskjaer it was down to his inexperience and relatively young age, but then Ange is the polar opposite of that and gets the same treatment.

Would love you lads to try and work it out.

I mean I don't think age is a massive driver of this Dave.

I was once in a conversation with a relatively high-profile member of the England women's national team who called Phil Neville whilst he was still in post a PE teacher.

Wow, he's a former elite-level former player.

I thought, Charlie, that you know, having no playing experience was a big part of this and just being like a clipboard-wielding laptop.

No, no, I don't think that at all.

No, I think it's more...

So firstly, I think a few things they need to...

They can't be suited regularly.

I think the point is that they're kind of unsophisticated is really important.

And that might be one of the Phil Neville things is that like, so they don't have huge tactical chops.

They're basically just kind of motive, you know, people who are just on the sidelines, taking training, being hands-on, telling people what to do.

Like Paul Jewell, I remember thinking, I seem to remember he was sort of bracketed as that.

I wouldn't say Ange because Ange sort of cares about tactics.

I think you need to not have any tactical chops.

You're just a kind of bit of a motivator telling people to run around a lot.

That's my sense.

Okay, well, that's an interesting narrowing of it down, Dave, because you've got, on one hand, you've got they can't be kind of anchilotti style suited and booted kind of overlords.

They need to be people who are comfortable on the grass and in their tracksuits.

But at the same time, they can't be sophisticated tacticos and forward thinkers.

So they're somewhere in the middle.

They're kind of old-school tracksuit managers, I guess.

Yeah, but I think it's,

yeah, it is a bit of a vibe, isn't it?

It's sort of clappers.

A lot of clapping.

Yeah, it is the track suit thing.

It's sort of having a stopwatch around your neck or whistle, you know, that sort of thing.

It's kind of taking, it's taking.

If you were to go to a fancy dress party, dressed as a P teacher, would the stopwatch around the neck be the number one thing?

Would it have to be?

What else could mark you out as a P teacher?

Yeah.

So I think it's like it's taking the sort of training aspect of it really seriously without really being very good.

You've only, you've just done, you know, you've done your diploma in sports science, but you haven't done your proper badges.

You're sort of telling them to run around a bit.

They don't really respect you, but yeah, it's, it's that sort of thing.

I agree, Charlie.

I don't think Ange, because Ange is such a sort of gruff presence that he's more of a headmaster type, really, in some respects than a PE teacher.

But I think, I just don't think people would take the piss out of him in the way that you would with Phil Neville or with Oscar.

There's too much authority to Ange to call him a PE teacher, for sure.

They are a sort of dying breed, though, aren't they?

I mean, there are fewer of them because we see there are fewer tracksuit managers and also fewer people without tactical chops.

I mean, often we can't.

Can we call him Topsa?

A glorified PE teacher?

No, see, because I was going to say, I think there's too much.

I mean, I can sort of see him being described that in some ways because...

He was a fly teacher.

Well, he was a

party coach, wasn't he?

I think not that long ago.

So quite literally.

He leads Beckett University.

But yeah, I think he's sort of in that bracket, but he's kind of proved himself, hasn't he?

Enough tactically.

But then he's sort of, yeah it may be something

a lot of people would say we've gone too far the other way and that there are you know a lot of these managers are too obsessed with tactics and all of that sort of thing and being too clever rather than sort of nailing the basics and being out on the grass and getting their players motivated but it conjures an image of like the kids taking the piss out of the pe teacher behind yeah there's a haplessness to it absolutely yeah whereas i think i think

in some respects like you you could potentially label someone like fabio capello when he he was England manager as a PE teacher, but not in the same way as, like, a sort of real kind of stern, no-nonsense taskmaster, but one that's completely got it wrong.

Like, everyone hates him, but all the kids hate him because he's always making them run laps and balloons.

Framzi was a PE teacher.

If we're going to go back through history,

I don't know, this has spiraled out of control.

But yeah, great question from Chris.

Next up, David Slayden writes in, Charlie, and says, as a Burnley fan in North Yorkshire, I've been keen to balance out the excessive number of Leeds United badges currently on display in and around Yorkshire.

So I approached the checkout of a local co-op with a Burnley badge on display.

Nice to see a proper football club for once, said the checkout supervisor.

I used to sell match programmes at Turf Moor.

It was my first job in football.

Keen not to dampen his spirits, I said, I might have bought a programme from you over the years.

Well, I was only there for two months, but yeah, my first job in football.

As I walked away, I realised I should have quizzed him more on how his career in football progressed from selling match programmes, but there was a cue, all of which begs the question: can being a programme seller count as a first job in football?

Indeed, any job in football and how long does it need to be to constitute a job in football i thought about this charlie you're employed by the club right to sell programs unless it's a third-party kind of contracting situation so that's a job in football surely yeah i think so even i can haven't there been people who've risen through the ranks you know you hear of those people maybe not so much anymore but who you know left school at 15 and they worked at the you know, doing a job like that.

Like, you know, he started selling programs and he's, you know, he's risen all the way.

to what exactly to work to being like almost even the ball even

being like a director or something you know you yeah i think that's possible like mourinho being bobby robson's translator i mean it's i mean that's about us that's about who am i thinking ken friar didn't ken fryer ken fryer o-be-e-sha is that manager arsenal yeah mr arsenal i'm pretty sure he he had the sort of journey I'm describing.

But was he just helping out with the selling of the programmes, you know, just to muck in?

And then was he specifically doing programmes, but that's a sort of level, you know, opening job.

Being a programme seller is the sort of thing that if you do it really well and you hang about, then you could kind of progress, you know, you get, you become one of those people that can just be trusted to deal with small match day problems or whatever.

And then eventually...

Stop the first program and the last one.

But eventually, I think there's a ceiling for this sort of person, this sort of jack of all trades, nice to have around, loves the club, will do anything.

I think it's Kitman.

I think you could get your way up to being a Kitman.

I don't think you're going to get any more involved with the sort of first team affairs or the administration of the club.

But I think Kitman is like the zenith of this particular pathway because it's prestigious, it's important, but it's also, I suppose it's unskilled, isn't it, really?

I don't know.

I don't know.

That feels, a Kitman feels more of a clubber in this spike.

I don't think you can train to be a Kitman, can you?

I think you can.

I don't know.

You need to be really fucking organized.

Kit management.

But I think if you're...

No, I think you can go higher because if you get a reputation as being like, you know,

you sort of, you muck in, you do whatever, you know the club inside out, you get shit done, that can become, that can get you really, really high.

You know, like a sort of, he, he just, you know, he, he's not going to mess around.

You know, like Ken Fryer started as a match day messenger boy and

all the way to MD.

Wow.

Well, okay.

Okay.

So it is doable.

So, yeah, it is a job in football, at least we can, we can get a lot of money.

Definitely a job in football.

But it begs the question as to what was his other jobs in football?

We need David Slayton to go back to the co-op at a quieter time, go sort of mid-afternoon and have a chat with him because he's ended up in the co-op.

So he's come out of football at some point.

He's come out of the game.

But where did he get to?

Just fell out of love with it, I reckon.

But just I agree, it is a job in football.

But do you remember we discussed years ago what sort of met the threshold for I work in football?

You would be quite surprised if you're chatting someone and say, well, you're like, yeah, I work in football.

And then what they meant was they sold programmes.

That's not the kind of typical I work in football job.

Communications officer, technically.

Solis Chukwu gets in touch next, Dave.

A tweet from Burnley, as they claim they smashed the 100 points barrier once again.

A remarkable achievement from Scott and his players.

Solis says, surely you can only smash a points total by eclipsing it.

If you only meet it, that's not a smashing.

If you didn't get more than 100, you can't smash the barrier, can you?

Yeah, you've not smashed it at all.

You've reached it.

You've met it.

You've messed it up.

Smashed against it.

Yeah.

And it's remained intact.

That'd be spot on, isn't it?

But Birmingham City smashed the 100 points barrier.

They got 111 points.

Wow.

That is a firm smashing of the 100 points barrier.

Shatter.

What's the record points total?

That's the NFL?

That's got to be.

I was going to say.

It was 106 before with Reading, but they have smashed through it big time.

That's too much, isn't it?

That's too much.

Yeah, that is sort of, you know, leads to questions about...

the integrity and

the state of things, I think, doesn't it, really?

But I mean, as in the championship, two teams, first time there have been two teams on 100 points.

But yeah, I mean, it's tidy to look at, but it's nice, yeah.

But it's so, how would you, what would you say then?

The hundred points barrier reached, yeah, but it's just not, it's not breached, clinched, clinched.

Can you clinch a barrier?

No.

No, I mean, you basically just pass through it

like a ghost.

Yeah, I just don't think you need to go for barrier.

Like, don't talk about that.

Don't say barrier.

Don't say barrier.

100 points mark met once again.

Meeting is up.

100 up again.

Centurions.

Centurions.

Yeah.

Centurions again.

We don't know about that.

Anyway, right, let's stay in the championship actually.

This is from the Pinken, the website dedicated to all things Norwich.

It was an opinion piece headlined, Norwich City fans must show Jack Wilshire respect.

Of course, it included this.

It says, yes, Wilshire may be inexperienced, and yes, it may look like an uninspiring appointment from within, but the disrespect being shown towards a talented young coach who Norwich City's players clearly want to play for, unlike how it's looked over the last couple of months under Thorup and has made a name for himself at Arsenal, is quite frankly nonsensical.

Let's be honest, if his name was Jacko Wilshieri, Jacques Wilshire, or something more exotic, all of those prematurely writing him off would probably be fawning over him.

Jacko Wilschery, where's he from?

Well, how's me Italian?

He's meant to be Italian, but it should be Giacomo.

Yeah?

That would really sort that out.

But that's generally with a G, so maybe it feels it would lose its impact.

He can't really Italianise Wilshire.

So so he's made it sound sort of almost Albanian, really.

Like Shakiri.

Wilsheri.

Jacques Wilsher, though, is nice.

The Jacques is good.

Jacques Wilsher.

Little accent over the E as well.

Yeah, he's done a grave.

Fair play.

I mean, Venga aside, there aren't really, it's not really a glamorous coaching nation, is it?

Sort of France or Switzerland or any that sort of place.

France definitely had a moment where there are a lot of them knocking.

You know,

that felt like the Portuguese manager for a while.

But yeah, not so much anymore.

Just go Joao.

João.

What's the.

Wilshire just doesn't travel well, does it?

No.

But also, it's Jack Wilshire.

He's, he's a, he's like, he is glamorous.

A huge name, yeah.

Yeah, as many have pointed out, Dave, yeah, he's already, he's already got the job on reputation, like, you know, by his name to some extent.

So it kind of defeats the point somewhat.

Yeah, absolutely right.

Anyway, speaking of former Premier League stars clinging to relevance on the basis of their name alone, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

Now, first up, here is Richard Keyes on the Europa League.

Both United and Tottenham have a date in Europe this week.

Thursday, United three out from their game in Spain, and Bodo, the mighty Bodo trail by three goals to one to Spurs.

I mean, if those two don't win, something's wrong.

I don't mean that.

I'll tell you what's wrong.

Go ahead.

There's a Champions League place waiting for the winners.

That's what's wrong.

They don't make the rules, do they?

No, but

it's ridiculous.

Yes, I agree.

If you win this tournament, you should qualify to play in it next year.

Yeah, of course you should.

No more.

If you finish 50 to 60 to the league, you should qualify for a reopening.

Perfect.

This is nonsense.

No, it is.

Not what Keez is saying.

that and winning that should not qualify you for a champion certainly not

certainly not been waiting all these years Charlie for Richard Keyes to say Bodo glimped

and he only went for the first bit and I'm very annoyed about that but otherwise yeah just textbook I mean the logic isn't isn't unreasonable for this Charlie but and I I hear this saying a lot and I don't know if I'm using it correctly or not but I think he's he's playing the man not the ball here like it's not you can't just you can't just blame Manchester United and Spurs for having their predicament and in the league and then not deserving the place.

Those are the rules.

And, you know, on the face of it, it's not a bad bit of legislation for the competition.

So

in essence, it's classic Keesy.

Well, what he's arguing, though, I've not actually,

is, I think what he's saying, because he doesn't say it's specifically because Spurs and United are really bad, which is what Andy Gray says, and what

a lot of people are making the argument, like, how can you...

be a James League if you're this crap in the league.

Yeah, quite.

Which would obviously mean introducing a rule like you have, there's a minimum place, which

exactly.

What's what's acceptable top half mid-table yeah yeah yeah i guess that but like but i haven't actually seen anyone saying just generally winning the europa league should just keep you in the europeagle perfectly natural like it's a you just win one and you move up a level

yeah that's interesting but uh yeah interesting theory from him i liked when andy gray said if these two don't win something

something's wrong and i mean that

yeah that was

a nice little touch self-parody for me but it's it's also so funny because keesey would how much he rails against like premier league complacency and that sort of thing like if United and Spurs had lost like he would have been the first to have been like they got what they deserve for their arrogance.

Yeah.

Us assuming we're better than a team from Norway.

Why?

Like he's just like Bodo.

Like he's doing exactly what he kind of claims to release.

Anyway, I've been pointing out Keesy hypocrisy.

Yeah, you can't pin him down.

You can't pin him down.

He's he's nimble.

Right.

Next up here are Keys and Gray talking about Leeds United and Daniel Farker and his future.

And you're just waiting.

You're waiting for Keesy to roll it out, to unleash it.

If you're a Leeds fan, would you accept

if I'm the owner of Leeds?

A change now, Farker.

If I'm the owner of Leeds, right, and I've put my money into this project, and this is what I employed a coach to do, to get us out of the championship, and he's done that.

And

I think for the future of the club,

I can get a better coach, a more experienced coach, someone who I think can give us success in the Premier League, I would make a change.

Yeah, I would.

It would be

terribly sorry for Daniel Farker because he's done fantastically well, Keese.

And lots of people say, Oh, he deserves a chance, he deserves a chance.

Those three coaches were given a chance at the bottom of the league.

Daniel Farker's had two chances in the Premier League, and neither worked out very well.

So, there's your answer.

If I thought I got a better person now, because then I would pay him handsomely and give him a

leads on fire.

They would not go down, let's get that straight.

No.

And I think would would be competitive at the top end season two.

There's no move on that at the moment.

No, just a rumour.

Yeah.

Dave, do you know what?

As has happened many times before, I've been keysy-pilled on this to some extent.

If Jose Mourinho had taken over at Leeds United this summer, which won't happen because Daniel Farker has been confirmed as the man who will lead them into the Premier League, how would they have done?

Like, do you think they would have got relegated under Jose?

I think it's a chance, but I also think

he's immune to relegation.

I just can't see him being relegated ever.

Well, they've got the whole, you know, the Red Bull thing.

They've got a squad full of sort of high-pressing, energetic players who've been recruited from across Europe and that sort of thing.

It's not Mourinho-style squad that they've got.

So I just think the whole thing would have been a complete disaster.

But it's interesting that Keesy, I mean, it's not the first time that he's backed Jose, but he knows he can't go for Big Sam.

because Big Sam took leads down last time he was with them.

So it sort of has to go for Mourinho.

But I can kind of, you know, make, maybe there's a reasonable percentage chance that Mourinho would have enough and do enough to keep them up.

But to then suggest that they'd be competitive at the top end in the second season.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean,

set leads on fire.

Is that what they want?

I mean,

if anything, stability is what they want, surely.

I love that idea.

But I know what you mean, Ed, but I think that's the same logic that when players sign, like, washed, sorry, when teams sign it, washed-up players, and you're like, wow, but they must must still be pretty good mustn't they like even you know player legendary player x at 60

good yeah like they're not they're like at the depth and i kind of think same thing it's also really funny just again on the the boxing thing like that they're adopting this thing of like you know it's football he's not good enough get rid of him like imagine if a team did that to one of their mates like you know daishy got a team promoted or someone you know it would be like treason to get rid of a manager who just got you promoted i didn't actually mention daish yeah in passing there because he's quite leads in many respects.

Thanks to you, Charlie Ecclesia.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

1001 not out.

We'll be back on Thursday.

See you then.

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