Accidental FIFA commentary, Newcastle's Fibonacci fate & Premier League cliche analytics

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A Morgan Gibbs White drumbeat, instinctive small talk with an ex-Premier League footballer.

The most mid-2000s FIFA commentary of the season.

Why Newcastle now must win 21 league titles in a row or the world will implode.

143 gold prem hero Julio Vardez.

The right FA Cup final matchup.

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This is Football Clichés.

Hello everyone and welcome to football clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the adjudication panel on that panel with me.

First of all, Charlie Eccleshaire, how you doing?

I'm good.

Yeah, I was in Madrid last week and I had one of those nice

football language helping me out situations, which I feel has been on MHD listeners or will be at some point.

But yeah, my Spanish is really, really bad.

Never did it school or anything.

And when I was paying for something and I just picked up the word targeta, which I knew from watching La Liga that tajeta amaría was a yellow card and they must be asking if I wanted to pay on cards so uh I responded see and paid with cards so thank you very much Spanish football and then you you brandished your academic card my monzo yeah wow yeah football really smoothing over your existence that does sound like a really convenient sort of smoothing over of your existence i'm i'm really pleased for you actually but yeah tajeta what a lovely word alongside you on the adjudication panel david walker how are you doing i'm very good and before we kick things off here is morgan gibbs white striking in an absolutely plum volley against the Wembley crossbar on Sunday.

That is so nice.

It's a great drum beat.

Someone's got to use that for something.

It's really good.

So

you sent this round to a few of us last night and former clichés producer, A.D.

Moorhead, he immediately, within a few minutes, it was like a really good observation.

he sent us back a link to the talking heads cover version of take me to the river and the drum beat is almost identical it was a great spot yeah it's lovely stuff but yeah just but charlie like in isolation um a great sound of

it sounds like a plum volley as well it sounds like he's hit it absolutely on the money as well yeah and some consolation i'm sure to gibbs white now you know he didn't score his goal on wemberly but for him to be discussed on this platform must be pretty reassuring.

Yeah, as it is for most people.

Right, let's do the adjudication panel.

Speaking of the FA Cup semi-finals, a friend of mine, Dave, went to the Palace Villa semi on Saturday.

I think he was in the expensive seats, so he was in a box of some kind, and he says,

he immediately just messaged me and says, just met James Tompkins.

And I was like, all right.

And so my first question back was, okay, well, what was your opening gambit, small talk-wise?

And I swear to God, he said the first thing he said to me was, do nerves actually transmit themselves to players from the crowd?

Immediate search for insight from an ex-pro.

Wow.

Don't know what the response was.

But yeah.

But great to see.

That would have been the perfect time for an inaccurate, oh, I could have done with you out there today.

You really didn't need him, as it turned out.

But it's incredible, just like this might be the first thing that crosses your mind.

You never get the chance to speak to an ex-pro again.

What would you say if you were in a room with you and James Sompkins?

I mean, there's not an obvious go-to.

I don't know.

Is defending that difficult?

I don't know.

Could you prefer West Ham or Palace?

Yeah, but basically, yes.

The response from Tomkins there, because I've been in similar situations where, yeah, you find yourself in hospitality and like the

ex-player is sort of doing the rounds maybe, you know, has a little chat with every table or whatever.

And it can, and generally, they're putting their best foot forward because they're being paid to be there.

And, you know.

they're going to be polite and indulge the questions of the fans.

But sometimes they don't.

That question could have gone either way.

He could either give you a really earnest insightful answer or just completely fuck it off within three seconds like nah not really make yeah and then just look looks away to the next person to talk to yeah I think you're overthinking it there fella I think the standard issue player answer for this is that they just shut it out don't they you know you you try not to you try not to listen to it you know the all the noise but um maybe some of it could have offered him a bit of both there I thought he was I thought there was going to be an or do nerves really affect your or do you just shut it out there'll be some bit of both in the plenary don't you worry um a couple couple of great clips to really kick things off on the adjudication panel now uh first one comes from dara it's from sky's highlights of fulham's win at southampton here's tony gale with the most mid-2000s fifa commentary in a real match you're ever gonna hear

from ryan sessignon and the fulham fans are singing ryan sassignon he's one of our own what a good finish

So perfect.

It's the change of the crowd noise underneath him as well, which kind of helped.

That's so

That was such a thing they did, didn't it?

They brought in that kind of thing, like, oh, this will make it sound more authentic.

Like, refer to a chant or refer to the noise or something.

That's brilliant.

The flatness of it really helps as well, Dave.

It's like that's the best Tony Gale can deliver for FIFA that day.

It's such an identifiable cadence, isn't it?

I mean, he's been in the studio all day, to be fair to him.

You know, he's probably tired.

He's had to do

every single player, all 25-man squads in the Premier League.

Every every homegrown player yeah someone's had to go and research the data behind their homegrownness um dave do you think tony gale would have got a look in in the fifa mix back in the mid 2000s i think he might have had one edition fifa i'm not sure but if you expand

to pro evo or yeah maybe some of the third tier Yeah games potentially.

Maybe that one where it was like a really identical football game that ended up getting an addition for all the big Premier League clubs each.

This is football or something like that.

No, that's not called that, is it?

Anyway, right, next up, this came from Electronic Ideal on the Reddit.

Here is Joe Hart saying very Joe Hart things about Chelsea's Robert Sanchez.

Because you need that experienced goalkeeper who's going to keep the calmness.

But there's a reason that Robert Sanchez plays for Chelsea and there's a reason that he's in the Premier League because he's an incredible savour of a football.

Dave, I mean, I was going to say this is just a really footbally way of describing someone who's a good shotstopper, but it also feels quite Joe Harty now.

We've been exposed to a lot lot of Joe Hart recently, and I think I've got his measure.

We have heard a lot from him this season.

He's been an increasingly regular presence on the BBC.

And I'm not surprised to hear him go with that sort of that line of phrasing.

He does have a slightly different way of describing things.

I've never heard Sabre of a football before, Charlie.

I think with him, with sort of observing him, I get the sense that he's very conscious of the sort of niche that he has as a recently retired, you know, he's been playing at Premier League and decent level football way more recently than like 90 of the other pundits and so i think he's aware that he can really like you know bring people in you know you've been there you've played with these guys and it sometimes comes out a bit weirdly it's sort of like over earnest um and just not entirely sensical yeah it's not too distantly related dave from the concept of saying you know this football club or you've got to win football matches it's it's sort of fleshing out linguistically for almost no reason to make it sound more profound i don't know well i thought i quite like it as an elegant variation on Shotstopper.

Yeah.

Yeah, why not?

Save for football.

Yeah, I like it.

Fair enough.

Right, DMR295 has got his thinking cap on, Charlie, on the Reddit and says, as of today, the list of Premier League winners forms a Fibonacci sequence.

Blackburn Rivers won, Leicester one, Liverpool two, Arsenal three, Chelsea five, Manchester City eight, Manchester United 13.

Incredible stuff.

But as L285 replies, this is brilliant, but who's going to win the next 21 titles to keep the pattern going?

Oh, yeah.

I mean, this is

an amazing spot.

I mean, Newcastle would be the only one that could possibly, you know, if the PSR rules are relaxed and the Saudis just go all in and they sign a kind of Galacticos team this summer and win 21 in a row.

That's not actually that mad a scenario.

If you actually had to keep the Fibonacci sequence going, Dave, that would be the way to do it.

I mean, it could all come down in the courts, right?

Makes you think.

Does make you think.

But yeah, it pervades maths, nature, art, and now Premier League football.

Let's stick with the

potential big picture power shift in English football.

Big debate this week now, Dave, and some probably quite tedious pieces too, about who is now the biggest club in English football.

And the backdrop to this is not so much Liverpool's kind of title win under Ana Slot, but also Man United's ongoing malaise.

And I've never seen it framed quite like this.

This is a really good way of sort of framing the length, the duration of Manchester United's flatness.

Low quality regen on Blue Sky has been benchmarking Manchester United since 2013 against Liverpool's own flat period of 1990 to 2020.

So

when Liverpool last won the league in Covid, Manchester United were at the signing Carl Hines-Riedler stage

of their doldrums.

Five years on, they're now at the signing El Had's Duf stage.

So that really kind of frames just how long it's been, but you know, potentially how little time they've got left in the doldrums.

Well, how long they've got left in the doldrums.

Well left hand.

I mean yeah they're not even halfway through the doldrum era.

Might have a UEFA Cup coming up, at least.

Something to cling on to.

They've had the cups, and that's what makes the comparison so neat, is that United still have won cups and trophies in the way that Liverpool did throughout that spell.

So when did...

How has Juf signed in, what, 2002?

2002 after the World Cup.

So, yeah, they have got a long way to go.

If the sequence keeps happening, they've got...

They've got a lot of, they've got their Brendan Rodgers era.

They've got their Rafa era to come.

Well, they'd take that, wouldn't they?

Rafa era.

Yeah, this could map so nicely, but it maps even better than I thought.

Liverpool between 1990 and 2002, Charlie, won two FA Cups, two League Cups and one UEFA Cup.

Manchester United in the same time period of 2013 to 2025, two FA Cups, two League Cups and one Europa League.

It's absolutely perfect.

Yeah.

It is.

And I saw, I can't remember who it was, but they had a graphic just showing kind of the years in which each have won it.

And it is weird how it's like these periods of just complete dominance.

Like, they've never really been both good at the same time.

It feels like it's like this country ain't big enough for the both of them.

You have a couple of decades.

We'll just, or three decades, we'll just chill out and win some BOFA Cups.

I mean, I realise this is very, very mainstream chat now, Dave.

But

does it astonish you that it is now 12 years of Men United doldrums?

Like, that's an astonishing amount of time for a club not to have sorted themselves out.

I mean, I am on an almost daily basis at the moment reminded of how long ago the early 2010s were.

Moise was really young looking then.

As I rapidly approached 40.

Yeah.

It's

quite at the forefront of my mind at the moment.

You're headed for your own doldrum for the next 12 years.

Sorry, mate.

You might pick up a UEFA couple too.

My raffer years in the mid-40s are going to be great.

What's going to be your El Hadoof motor?

I've just got to get through these last few years of Hoolier.

A motorbike or something like that.

While we're on Liverpool, can we talk about the scenes at the final whistle?

I know we'll come onto it a bit later with Keys and Grey, but just in terms of the situation with the shirts, I was watching Match of the Day this morning and you had Arna Slot putting on a shirt the right way round and being interviewed on Match of the Day wearing a shirt, but you could still see his white shirt poking out from the collar as well, which just looked weird.

And then you had the players wearing special shirts with champions on the back, but they turned them round so the back, so the champions was on the front.

But it looked it's like when you put a t-shirt on the wrong way round and you immediately feel the collars too high.

It's incredible, sudden feeling of oh, this is totally on the wrong way.

It's very subtle, but it's right there.

It looks like he's it, Santa looked like he was sitting in a

barber's chair when he came

because if the collar's just too high and tight.

And Arnest Lott just looked like a fan.

He looks like a middle-aged bald bloke you'd see at any Premier League game.

I mean,

how have we got into this perfectly manicured era of Premier League title celebration, Charlie, where it's so stage-managed that players are still in a situation where they have to turn their celebratory shirts around to display the message.

Just put it on the front.

Just put it on the front.

It doesn't have to be an actual football shirt.

Just do it as a t-shirt.

They do it, and they still look so kind of homemade and crap.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Maybe there's just no way of solving that.

Why does Arnold Slot need to wear the shirt?

Why does he need to?

It's like Richard Wright wearing the outfield shirt to go and pick up the Premier League trophy with Man City again.

It's like, just put a goalie top on.

Why aren't people planning this better?

But do you think the fans love it, seeing Slot in a Liverpool shirt?

Is it kind of like it makes him feel like more one of us?

Should be doing interviews in it, though.

Not in the traditional way.

Just look silly.

Like, don't look like a manager, as Dave has already pointed out.

But

I feel we're getting a little bit too keysy about this.

And there's the real keys yet to come.

Let's move on.

The highlights on the Sky Sports website of Sheffield United's 2-0 win over Stoke on Friday night, Charlie, had the headline, Blades bounce back to keep Stoke's relegation fears alive.

Okay, development says we've all heard of a result keeping hopes alive.

Not sure how I feel about keeping fears alive.

Can you keep fears alive?

It's a bit weird.

And for someone else to be doing it to you as well.

Like, that's even odder.

Yeah, I think you could say, like, you know, Stoke still fearing relegation after so-and-so,

but I think fears alive is quite weird.

No, I I don't like Fears Alive, Dave.

I think only positive things should be kept alive.

Yeah, what could we say instead?

Blaze Bounce back to keep Stokes relegation in the relegation Maya or something.

Or

just restart it with Stoke, I think.

I think sort of putting Sheffield United in control of it.

Stokes relegation.

Yeah, yep.

Continue would be fine.

Just keep it

tidy.

But yeah, I don't like it at all.

George Wright, this one's for you, Charlie.

He says, adjudication panel request.

I was playing local Vets League tennis at at the weekend, and my partner on shanking a groundstroke screamed in self-admonishment, you've got to make that shot at this level.

Is Hertfordshire Men Winters Seniors over 45's Division 2A the lowest record echelon of sport for an at-this-level reference?

That is such a great question.

DF2A as well.

And at this level.

Yeah, I'm trying to think if like in Sunday league I've ever heard that.

You just gotta put that away at this level.

But you probably wouldn't, wouldn't because I think at that point you just say at any level.

You're at such a low level, relatively speaking that it's more at any level yeah and i think here as well you yeah i think because i would definitely am playing tennis i'm sure i've said to myself something like you've got to make that shot the at this level bit yeah that is um i think it might be a stretch at that particular level i think that this is possibly a little bit more common in tennis or maybe similar similar types of sport you know paddle or badminton or squash or whatever in that you do get those sorts of characters who because it's kind of it's you it's unless you're playing doubles, but even then it's an individual thing.

People take it so seriously.

I think their own individual identity is tied up in a much greater way than it is when you're playing football as part of a team.

I've been at tennis clubs and you get those characters.

You know, the ones, Charlie, that just take it really seriously.

Like they know.

And you're right that about an individual sport, you do have a very set

standard of yourself in your head.

In a way, like, what I think is interesting about football is it's so hard to kind of benchmark yourself.

Whereas in individual sports, there does tend to be more of a kind of standardised ranking or whatever.

Or, you know, if you play golf, you know what your handicap is.

And club-level tennis, which isn't necessarily the case here, but club-level tennis is a discernible level.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily equal, the equivalent to Sunday league football.

I think club-level tennis is a little bit higher than that.

Yeah, so it is.

I think in football, Dave, I would say that the lowest point you should start talking about at this level with any seriousness is probably when you're talking like county or district level when you're a kid.

Because that's like that, that you're stepping up then.

You're amongst the best of the best.

Like top gun.

The cream of the cram.

Saturday football, not Sunday football.

Yes, exactly right.

Yeah,

a simple kind of adjustment as that.

But yeah, definitely not Sunday league.

But

I wish I'd just been there to witness this shriek of self-admonishment.

Time for footballers' names in things.

Now, a little trio of delights.

Adam Wright first up.

We were talking about Malaysian linesman called Mark Haitley the other day.

He says, never mind Indonesian or Malaysian footballers having footballers' names in their names.

I'm randomly watching RZ versus Barca Under 19s.

And Xavi Simon's cousin has just come on for RZ.

He's called Saviola Mourinho Simon.

Mourinho.

I mean, Saviola, is that a football manager thing rather than a real life thing?

I mean,

that was where he excelled more, I would say.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, it's just, yeah, well, I mean, good point.

I mean, real-life Saviola, to have that much of a sort of influence over a player, I'm not sure that's the case, but Mourinho is very odd to me.

Has it been noted that Xavi Simons is named after Xavi?

Do Do we know that for a fact?

I don't know.

And this certainly supports the case.

But it's his cousin.

So the brothers are both doing it in their family.

It's not like it's not like it's his brother.

It's pervaded the entire family there.

Interesting as well, because, I mean, Saviola is Barcelona, but Mourinho is famously so anti-Barcelona.

So I don't know if there's some division within the family.

I don't know.

Is it investing in the future?

If he becomes a manager, then it's like, well...

you know, he's named after Jose, so that's a lifetime's ambition fulfilled.

Is he diminutive as well, like Saviola?

I mean, would you know that necessarily at the start?

I mean, I guess if you're all short in the family, maybe.

Maybe just really pragmatic.

Yeah, maybe.

Just absolutely gives nothing away.

Tracking the growth of the baby while it's still in the womb.

I think this is going to be a small one.

We can't call him Yan Colla.

Yan collar.

Superb.

Yeah.

Footballer's name's really unraveling then.

Elsewhere, this came from Ollie giving a seminar on neuroscience from Harvard University.

It's Denver Barr PhD.

That is good.

Yeah, he's giving a talk at the Grossman Center for Quantitative Biology and Human Behavior.

Alan Pardew, a case study.

Finally, this came from Duncan Cameron.

He asks, who's making an unexpected appearance in the latest episode of Small Town Dicks, the true crime podcast hosted by Yeardley Smith, the voice of Lisa Simpson?

And we have this magazine from a.22-caliber Ruger.

So I reached out to a former firearms examiner that I worked with, that I actually had hired for the lab that I worked for.

His name was Chris Coleman.

Once again, Charlie, the British name that just actually sounds really odd in an American voice.

But why should it?

Why shouldn't there be a Chris Coleman in the U.S.?

Linking those two together, I remember watching one game commentated on by Chris Coleman involving Denver Barr, and he exclusively called him Big Bar.

You know, he'd often call people like the big fella, but he just kept calling him Big Bar.

Oh.

Like, as in just, yeah, like Big Denver Barr, but just no Denver, just Big Bar.

I thought the player's not to full name as well.

One of the full namiest players there's ever been.

Extraordinary.

Now,

we've been enjoying a glut of if X was called Y recently, Dave, and long may this continue because this first one comes from Davith Rhys Bowen.

A tweet from Peter Hitchens saying if the cathedrals of England were in fashionable foreign countries, people would would flock to visit them as they travel to the Taj Mahal.

This is a nice variation on it.

Davis says, Disappointed not to see a if Salisbury Cathedral was called Saliti Katidrale in the replies.

I mean, it's the same concept again.

It's basically saying that, you know, we aren't, you know, we aren't trendy enough over here.

It's slightly different, though, isn't it?

Because it's more.

I mean, because I was thinking that, like, Salisbury Cathedral and others are, you know, Canterbury are pretty well thought of.

Isn't it more, this is saying that, like, highly rated.

Yeah, well thought of amongst

aficionados.

But yeah, it's me more saying that when something's on your doorstep, it's a bit too close and unglamorous.

You know, you don't need to go halfway across the world.

And I do kind of know what he means.

There are, like, you would never sort of go sightseeing in your own city.

I know, sorry.

But you go on a city break and you're like, oh, I bet, I guess we better go to the local castle, seeing as we're here.

Like, you can do that at home if you want.

You're absolutely right about the on-the-doorstep phenomenon.

Yeah.

Whenever you go to London, Dave, you just think, oh my God, we've got all this.

We can bring up tourists every now and then.

Yeah, there you are.

Right, next up, let's keep things cultural.

Thursday night, the Sports Bar on Talk Sport with Jason Cundy and Jamie O'Hara.

The only reason you two are hyping up Jamie Vardy is because he happens to be English.

If he was called Julio Vardez, none of you would be.

Good player, everybody.

Julio Vardez, mate.

143 goals, Julio Vardez got in the Premier League, mate.

Good, you player.

I mean, before we even get stuck into the mechanics of this particular sort of deployment of it, I love the reaction.

That's a great reaction to it.

Yeah.

143 goals for Julio Vardez as well.

Who would Julio Vardez have played for in the Premier League, Dave?

If you're scoring 143 goals, if we're going to continue O'Hara's line of thought, it's got to be

Man City

or possibly Newcastle, but they're not quite good enough for Vardez, I don't think.

Vardez.

But as Connor McLachlan, who sent this in, points out, Charlie, the caller used the if-he was called Julio Vardez mechanism, but did so to suggest that the foreign equivalent would be regarded as a lesser player.

Surely this is quite literally illegal.

A very unusual deployment of it, yeah.

Yeah, it is.

You do hear it a bit, don't you, with the like English tax or like, you know, that the players are overpriced and overvalued because they're English.

But he's giving him deliberately sexy foreign names.

It doesn't help.

True, yeah.

But I guess, is he getting at the fact that like if he wasn't this kind of like scrappy, like ratty little player who we kind of, you know, we love because of the shithousery uh if you i think as he's saying like if you just focused on his footballing maybe he's overhyped yeah maybe but i just yeah i just i just love seeing this being rolled out left right and center um let's end part one with another beloved segment of ours a bit of both i'm only going to do this because this is a great couplet of doing it well and doing it badly this first one came from darren altman it's an almost hyper-efficient bit of bothing it's in an exchange with ange posterkoglu and a journalist over the fitness of sonj jungmin Min.

Hi there, Ange.

Just wanted to ask about Sonny.

Has it just been resties needed or treatment or a bit of both?

Yeah, bit of both.

A bit of both.

It's just a clinical transaction, Charlie.

It's offered and immediately snapped up, and everyone's happy.

Let's just get out of the way.

Yeah.

We all know what it is.

Yeah, it was.

Yeah, set up perfectly.

Yeah, say, just a really, really clinical situation.

Conversely, this came from Jack Francis.

Here's Sky News reflecting on the funeral congregation of Pope Francis.

What are your

If you're not ready for it, you're not ready for it.

Clearly, inexperienced there.

She should have had long enough to prepare for it.

The question went on for ages getting to that point.

Surely she saw that coming.

After they recorded, listen, next time, just give me one option, okay?

Right, that ends part one on the Football Cliche's Adjudication Panel.

We'll be back very shortly.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

This is the adjudication panel.

A reminder that you can get in touch at football cliches at gmail.com.

You can DM me on Twitter or Instagram or get involved in our Reddit page, which I have to say is actually plateauing right now.

It's still at 28,000 users, Dave.

What's going on?

We've reached our level.

We're at capacity.

Yeah.

That's a shame.

That means we are still neck and neck with the likes of MGMT, 50 Cent, Animals Being Lovable, and Co-Parenting.

So a nice mix.

So we're still up there.

That's the good thing.

By the way, Thursday's episode of Football Cliche is going to be April's edition of the Listeners Mezza Haaland Dicks.

Admittedly, it's going to be be released on May the 1st, but surely the recording date is more important, isn't it, Dave?

That's when things actually get done.

Well, it's like when the chancer window shuts sometime on February the 1st because of some sort of administrative reason.

Yeah, this has never happened before.

Yeah, so it's absolutely fine.

Anyway, we want you to send in your niche, obscure, but highly perceptive footballing fascinations and irritations, ideally in the form of a 30-second voice note.

Just send it to football cliches at gmail.com and we're going to pick the most entertaining on-the-money entries for the final six.

So get thinking and send them in.

Right, adjudication panel continues apace.

Charlie, with the news that Channel 5 have

licensed the rights to broadcast the Club World Cup in the UK this summer.

Was there a sneaky feeling that it was always going to be Channel 5?

Is this a Channel 5e competition?

Is it unfolding as a Channel 5-y competition rather than a proper BBC ITV affair?

We've had this date from the beginning.

It did have a bit of that feel.

I mean, Channel 4, maybe, but it's

maybe a bit grubby for Channel 4.

I don't know.

Whereas,

yeah, like you know with their with their politics and kind of exposes and things like that um channel five yeah no complaints but yeah very excited to see who they cobble together it's an interesting deal dave they haven't got all the games from disone five are sub-licensing 15 group stage matches four round of 16 matches, two quarterfinals, one semi-final, and the final itself.

So for the kind of, you know, the mainstream UK audience, is that just enough Club World Cup?

Do you think?

Yeah.

You should get both semi-finals, though.

Come on.

Yeah, that's a bit weird, just having one semi-final.

I think you can still watch it free on DeZone, but that is going to be a bit of a faff, isn't it?

Is it online?

I mean,

I'm sure you can get it on your TV, on your smart TV or whatever, but still, you know, it's not as easy, is it?

It's exactly the sort of thing you'll think, like, I'm not going to bother with that, but then people will be so starved of football, they'll find themselves kind of frantically trying to hook up the zone to their TVs and thinking, what am I doing with my life?

Oh, sure.

I mean, there's one strand of argument, Charlie, that, you know, it's football and it is of a ostensibly high elite level.

So we're all going to tune in and watch.

But they're also, let's not sleep on the concept that it will take on this kind of cult, sort of social media-propelled status where people say, you know, things are just going to happen.

And listeners will start tuning in on that basis alone, even if they didn't like it in theory.

So as with any kind of footballing thing, if there's enough cultural groundswell, people will start watching.

So

five might have an audience on their hands, is what I'm saying.

I can't remember the last time I watched anything on Channel 5.

No, i cannot remember

what did you like on linear tv as well what did you last tune in on channel 5 to watch do you know what i'll i'll sometimes if i i'm very old-fashioned in that very occasionally i will record a game without finding out the score i thought you're going to say you're a big fan of dan walker on the on the news on channel five news call me crazy uh but what i'll do is i'll leave it on a channel that won't possibly reveal any football stuff and for some reason i i'll quite often go channel five will be my go-to because you can leave it there safe in the knowledge you're not going to stumble stumble across

these revelation, yeah, until this summer.

Here's a little quiz for you on that basis.

Then, can you guess the last live football game shown on channel five?

Um, even give me the year.

Well, the last football they of any note that they had was the EFL highlights.

I don't know if they did an ITV thing where they got a couple of games, but I don't think so.

Don't think so.

So, you've got surely it's got to be uh

UEFA Cup, Europa League, a Thursday night in Charlie, you'll probably remember more than me.

When did they lose it?

When are they?

I can't remember.

I mean, they were still being chanted in

the late 90s.

Whether that was an accurate,

you know, there's sometimes a bit of a lag, but...

2011?

Yeah, I still reckon around then.

So close.

It would have been.

So close.

It was the Europa League final of 2012.

Atletico Madrid versus Athletic Club of Vilbao.

Wow.

So, yeah.

Here is the lineup.

How Channel 5 is this?

So they had the Europa League final in 2013.

Two Spanish clubs.

Jim Rosenthal presenting.

Main commentator was Dave Woods with Stan Collymore alongside him in the gantry.

I remember Collymore doing that, yeah.

And Pat Nevin was the pundit.

Collymore also did punditry, so they obviously did it off-tube, perhaps.

I don't know what's going on there.

But yeah, Channel 5 out of the doldrums.

12-year doldrums-ish.

So they've done messed in.

Do you think that we're going to...

There'll be a channel 5-y-esque line-up for this, or do you think they'll push the boat out and try and get some heavy hitters?

There could be some wild punditry line-ups.

There's going to be short-term contracts all over the place.

But it's whether or not, if you're Micah Richards, say, you've got the opportunity for a bit of a summer break here, unless you're going to do anything on the women's Euros, which I doubt he would.

Or do you think, oh, you know what?

I'm going to fill my boots here.

I think that's out of their reach.

Yeah, I think Joe Hart would do it.

Joe Hart would do it.

I can see Chris Sutton.

I'll need a Man City.

city yeah who are the other english clubs in it chelsea chris arton's too sniffy for it he'll hate the club world cup but i still think he'd do it oh okay despite hating it

john arsenon's available uh stephen warnots pulled out um you're still steaming steven warnot yeah well you might think we're doing channel 5 a bit of a disservice here but um unfortunately such is channel 5's network you know if itv had the tournament dave they'd probably chuck a couple of games on itv4 or whatever channel 5's options here coverage will be broadcast live and free to air on the main 5 channel and on the 5 streaming service with some matches shown on 5 USA and 5 action.

I mean the names are probably just about okay since the tournament is in the USA but you can't show it on 5 USA.

What's this?

In 15 years time.

That'll be part of a multiple choice question on the cliché's quiz.

Yes.

5 action.

Yeah.

If everyone listening to this podcast could conveniently forget this in 15 years time that would be great.

Right, next up, a real listen fair play moment here.

This Thomas Aston got in touch and says, I recently discovered the podcast while doing some important research and thought my findings might be of interest.

I've detected the clichés in the transcripts of every Premier League club's press conferences this season, apart from those I couldn't find easily to compile a playlist on the YouTube, and crunched the numbers.

Wow.

In the preamble...

Dave, he was sort of introducing the concept of the language of football and those who study it.

And he says, if Brian's gunner is Banksy, Adam Hurry is Aristotle.

Are you happy with that?

Wow.

Big time.

Yeah.

Hey.

Look, listen.

Fair play.

But, okay, so

he sort of introduces some light data at the start, Charlie.

He says, the undisputed champion of football clichés is, of course, the immortal at the end of the day, which has clocked in at a slightly underwhelming 17 mentions all season.

This seems rather low, doesn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe is it more of a, has it become more of a player thing?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Maybe it's just on the way out.

Yeah, completing the Champions League spots of clichias are no easy games, 10 mentions, one game at a time, nine mentions, and business end of the season.

I wonder whether perhaps the surprisingly low and at the end of the day tally, this is press conferences.

Do you think that do you think post-match interviews, live post-match interviews on the telly, whatever, are more likely to be filled with clichias?

Because it's a bit more, it's a bit quicker, you're under a bit more pressure.

Yeah, you want answers to tail off a lot more.

So you need a way out.

Whereas in a press conference, you need to get a lot of...

A bit more time to think about it.

The question

is a little bit more interesting.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's actually a very, very good theory.

It might also be fewer English managers as well.

I don't know if at the end of the day is so

has kind of crossed the foreign divide as much.

Yeah, that kind of pervades all the data here, but this is fascinating stuff straight off the bat.

Nuno Espirito Santos, Nottingham Forest, are way ahead of everyone else on clichés per 10,000 words of press conferences transcript.

Nuno Espirito Santo has maintained a remarkable 2.02 clichés per 10,000 words, a rate that is over 0.7 greater than their nearest rivals, Leicester, 1.26 clichés per 10,000 words.

I mean, having covered Nuno briefly when he was Spurs manager, this doesn't, I mean, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have said necessarily he uses a lot of cliches, but I would have said he says absolutely nothing.

And so it would tally that he would be using a lot of clichés to kind of pad out his non-answers.

Yeah, he gives nothing away, like to almost clinical levels.

It might well tally with this.

But the research, fascinating.

I will send out the link with this podcast when we publish.

But the crux of this, Thomas Ashton was trying to work out, Dave, if the cliché usage of the managers tallies with the performance levels of the clubs.

So he produced a scatter graph of points per game and clichés per 10,000 words.

And you know what it tells you?

Absolutely nothing.

And that's the best bit of it.

He's quite happy to say, do you know what?

There's very little statistical significance here whatsoever.

Like so many of these scatter plots, but at least he's admitted it.

So yeah, if you can divulge anything, Forest are way out there in the high cliche, high performance segment.

Liverpool are in the low cliche, high performance, so Arna slot doing the same.

That's where you want to be.

Yeah, I guess so, for all things considered.

Ruben Amarim, low cliche, low performance.

So, you know, you've got to do one or the other, mate.

And then Leicester, high cliche, low performance, which is, yeah, very much frowned upon.

Everyone else, just more or less in the middle.

That is quite interesting, though, and Amarim, I mean, again, small sample size, but he is often criticized, criticised, isn't he, for kind of being too honest and saying too much.

So maybe a few more at the end of the days and just banal clichés would help you rather than saying like this is the shitti team ever.

Yeah.

But yeah, I think Brian's gum would definitely appreciate the levels of detail gone in here on the YouTube transcript API.

But yeah, just tremendous work and great to see people engaging with this sort of subject matter.

Next up, people getting it wrong.

Jodan Securi has given an exclusive interview with 442 magazine Charlie.

And the headline quotes was, I think I showed I could do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke many times it was very windy there and the fans were always behind us it was a loud stadium Jerdan Shakiri busts the Stoke City myth it wasn't about players who played for Stoke

yeah

not purely a conditions thing it was that that accusation was never thrown even at Bowen Coach

like he can do it what's the problem yeah disappointing um Jodan Shakiri obviously confusing people all over the place Dave because uh TNT Sports tweeted the other day 32 appearances 34 goal contributions blast from the past jerdan shakiri is still producing at the age of 33 barclaysman this is a real problem it's becoming a real issue you know the surge of the barclaysman trend a few months ago which you know had its moment and it did the quite a long tale um as well um but i saw i saw somebody hail jamie vardi

the other day i was all i almost took to twitter to uh quote tweet this particular tweet to say like don't post on here much but yeah what is going on i'm over at the other place these days yeah jamie vardy it was described as like the ultimate barclays it was like come on this it i don't know it feels like your parents getting onto a trend and then making it really lame instantly like what what who is if he is who isn't like what you're

doing so he is a barclay

yeah but yeah you're completely right and and but then you've got people i think as is the case for shigiri as well going well he did play in the last sit season where it was sponsored by Barclays.

Not the point.

Yeah, he gets in on it.

He's got it on a technicality.

Jack Pitt Brook posited, Charlie, amongst other things, that Jamie Vardy can't qualify as a Barclays man because he's won the league.

Do you think that's the headline thing here?

I think in spirit, he's not miles away from the concept.

He's rough around the edges.

That's the whole point of it, isn't it?

I think you can, maybe you can have won the league, but I think, yeah, when you're like...

There's just a seriousness to being a key player and winning the league.

That's exactly talismanic.

Talismanic, yeah.

Yeah, like you know, yes, you know, you could still be a Bittersman if, oh, did you know he actually was a squad player and won it with Chelsea in 2010 or something?

Yeah, maybe, but like, yeah, exactly.

Although he did, he, yeah, he did win the league with Last.

Yeah, but he's he's fine because he is like slightly more of a cultish sort of figure.

You can't be the main man.

Like, Chelsea would have had plenty of players in the Mourinho title-winning teams that you could consider Barclays men, you know, who played 15 games and

Asia del Horno or whatever.

Like, that would count.

But you can't have Didier Drogba.

No, no.

Which I bet has been done.

I bet that's been done in the last year.

Yeah.

It's a dangerous habit.

Frank Lampard, what a Barclays money.

Right.

This could blow things apart.

I hope not.

James McCann says, can you please adjudicate on the man in the middle?

I always thought it's because the ref is generally positioned centrally on the pitch.

But I thought this weekend,

is it because he's between the two teams?

Can you help?

Thanks.

No!

No!

As you were, James McCann, it's the man in the middle.

He's because he's he's in the center circle most of the time.

Right?

That's what I've always thought.

Yeah, I mean, that must be.

Does James mean because you saw him when they're lining up and he's suddenly before a game and he suddenly had that thought?

I'm talking conceptually, like he's he's like he's a neutral figure between the two teams.

I think that's what he's getting at.

But I think we can allay these fears.

We can allay these fears, can't we, Dave?

Yeah, yeah.

Good.

Sometimes I'll put this out there and you go, no, that's that's what it means, right?

And I was like, oh, no, shit.

I've been burned too many times before.

Right, we'll be back very shortly.

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That is worth it!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

Knights of Sidona on Reddit

has this observation.

about the FA Cup final lineup.

They say this season's FA Cup final will be between Crystal Palace and Manchester City which pleases me because it's an FA Cup final like it should be.

Since 2017 there's been a trend of big six clubs meeting in this showpiece, the only exceptions being Watford in 2019 who got smashed and Leicester and even with them they were only five years after winning the league and were competing for Champions League spots at the time.

Before that though between 2008 and 2016 there was only one FA Cup final with two top six teams 2012 Chelsea vs Liverpool.

Going back to the noughties and 90s FA Cups always seemed to have this dichotomy the big club and the club in their first final or first in decades, for whom it was a big day out.

I feel, therefore, we are getting an FA Cup we deserve.

Maybe it's more competitive with two big teams, but I feel this type of final feels more right.

I can sort of sympathise with this, Charlie.

Yeah, and also just to reinforce that point, Liverpool actually came eighth in that 2012 season.

So

they were kind of in the...

Are you allowing it?

Sort of.

Well, but he's saying as a, I think he means as a big sixth team, but I mean, it supports it because they were in a slight kind of mid-table space at that time.

Yeah, I mean, without getting too serious about this, but I do think it has been a real shame.

It speaks to kind of how dominant, you know, the FA Cup now is basically, and Carabao Cup to an extent is sort of who has the best B team.

And that's, you know, and that's why City dominates.

It's not like City love the Carabao Cup.

They win it a lot because they have an amazing squad.

So they can rotate and still be really good.

So I think this has been the most interesting FA Cup in years because, and it's a shame that it will probably end with City winning it.

But you want it to be clubs who, like, you always think, why, why if you're like a mid-table club, don't you just like go for the FA Cup?

Like, surely there's an opportunity there when everyone else is resting their players.

Just go for it from like the third round.

Like, if you're Brentford, you're gonna finish somewhere between 9th and 12th, aren't you?

Like, just go for the FA Cup.

It's like

simple, but it's like club chairmen just don't listen to 606 in August, Dave, where they're the fans that they want to go.

They want a cup run.

They want a cup run this year.

Well, this season was, you know, the exception, I think, in that case.

Obviously, with so many teams getting to the latter stages who weren't part of the big six, but going back to the original submission uh Palace were in the final in 2016 weren't they that's true so that was before this period but but I did

I do think maybe I've been kind of gotten used to the fact that the the FA Cup it has been often between two big teams because you know we've had two Manchester Derbies as well and when City won on Sunday and there's part of me the sort of Watford fan in me even though still scarred from 2019 was sort of thinking you're good on Palace like it's good that a club like them have got to the FA Cup final.

But then I'm sort of like, oh, but then, you know, City are just going to beat them, aren't they?

It would have been,

probably would have been better if it was, if it was two big teams.

You know, it's the same thing happens in a World Cup when you're sort of cheering on the underdog, but then you get to the semi-final and

it's a washout.

And it's rubbish.

I mean, Villa almost would have been perfect, I guess, in the sense that they're a big team, but they're not in the traditional big six, and they're quite fun to watch.

But

I still think City are so much worse than they were when they beat Watford in 2019.

I respect the fact that both of you have gone gone deep on the kind of footballing merits of this year's FA Cup final kind of matchup.

All I wanted to ask, Charlie, is, is a big club versus a mid-table team the archetypal FA Cup final lineup?

That's all I want to know.

Well,

does it feel right?

Does it you know just on a really superficial level, does that feel right?

I guess so.

Yeah, I mean, trying to think of how good those ones were.

I mean, like Everton beating United in 95 was a really good one.

Let me give you some sort of slight subtle variations on this scenario.

Let's say, I'd know, let's take, so Chelsea against Middlesbrough in 1997.

So Middlesbrough relegated.

That's yeah.

So you don't want it to be too low and you don't want a team from the division below with all due respect.

I know it's happened before and it's been historic.

Yeah.

No, it's fodder.

Yeah.

It's no.

So, and we've established, you know, all round, Dave, that nobody wants two big six clubs in the final anymore because we've just, it's just pure fatigue and also they haven't taken it seriously up until that point.

So it really only leaves one scenario.

Yeah.

Is it similar to that thing where when people sort of have like their ideal Premier League, all the teams that were in the Premier League when you were 10, that in your mind, that sort of crystallized as your best version of the Premier League?

I think the same thing is true as the FA Cup final.

And that for me would be Manchester United against Everton in 1995.

Yeah, red and blue as well.

But then you did get those ones where like Newcastle were beaten finalists in 98, 99.

by Arsenal who were going for the double, then United by the treble, who were going for the treble.

And we talked about it before, and that was a classic didn't show up

type performances.

So you can have them like if if palace are in real danger of doing

they could just not show up like and lose 2-0 to city that there is that danger

that's absolutely spot on right um the final item for the adjudication panel today comes from upcar baradia says as my royal mail parcel collection window began i instinctively waited in the living room then i suddenly worried that whilst i was in prime position to hear the door knock my ground level view was limited to parts of the road immediately outside my house and my neighbours i relocated upstairs to enjoy enjoy the more expansive views from the spare bedroom and was immediately rewarded with visual confirmation that the postie was already in and around the area, five or six houses away from me.

I felt like Prime Big Sam abandoning his place in the Reebok Stadium home dugout to sit in the stands for a superior tactical view.

Spot on in every sense.

I'm all for this.

I'm a big delivery man anxiety.

I bet you are.

I knew you were going to say that in response.

I just want to know where they are.

And it's the same with deliveroos and it's the same with everything.

i don't i need visual confirmation before they get to the door well i'm a homero to to to fully complete the uh the analogy up car surely has got to position his uh his partner or whoever else he lives with uh in the sammy lee role down at the door

yeah

it's funny you say that and about that anxiety one feels with an order because i was been talking to various tennis players recently about anti-doping and you have to give an hour every day of the year you have to give an hour window when you can be tested and i was thinking like that's like having a tesco order every single day.

Yeah.

Imagine that.

You're just like,

no one needs that.

I mean, I'm all for a clean sport, but that's too much.

Oh, God.

I don't know what it is about me that gets so anxious, is the wrong word, but you know, jittery on my toes when a delivery is about to, when I hear the beeps of a reversing sort of Tesco lorry, I'm there, I'm at the door.

Have you ever missed one?

No, never, ever.

Never gonna happen.

And Luce is like, he's got to stop the van.

He's got to open the things.

He's got to get them out.

And he's got to get the freezer bits out.

You're looking at a good two and a half minutes yet.

I'm like, no, I'm ready.

Got to anticipate.

Because I feel like it's insulting to wait, like, not open your door when they're.

I want to show them that I'm ready and willing to receive my Tesco order.

Anyway,

speaking of Big Sam sympathizing, superior perspectives on football, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

Right, two matters to take care of this week.

Um, this one was obviously too good to stay behind the geo-blocked gates of their live stream the other week.

So, out it came again.

At Leicester and Southampton,

appointments that bemused me at the time.

If either or had gone for Sam Aladdin,

they would have significantly more points and have had a chance of survival

when Van Nisteroy and

Jurich, Ivan Durich?

Ivan Durich.

Where did that come from?

I have no idea.

Where did either of them come from?

I mean, the fact that

Van Niseroy won four games, two of them against Leicester, that's enough to get him the job.

Nah.

What a sign-off at the end, Charlie.

That's a great nah.

That's Andy Gray resurgent.

Do you know what?

As with many Keys and Grey clips, Dave, I start off thinking, yeah, shut up, you old dinosaurs.

And then eventually they'll say something like, well, why did Van Distroy get the Leicester job, actually?

And then I'm like, yeah, fair play, actually.

On what basis was he good enough to be the Leicester manager?

Yeah, I think that half of it stacks up, but they just need to update the Big Sam reference.

That is complete bullshit.

Like, he's so out of the game now.

You can't just get Big Sam in and you're going to get six to eight points to get you safe.

Who is modern Big Sam?

I suppose sort of you could say it would be maybe Steve Cooper, but Leicester had Steve Cooper in the first place.

Where have all the firefighters gone, darling?

It's not a vandalist job.

That's why.

Didn't Van Distroy, he did a good job with PSV, didn't he?

Isn't that sort of

the thing his advocates would point to?

Don't ever think it.

Just

barely being able to remember Ivan Urich's name as well.

The disdain just inbuilt into that as well.

But that, you know, that was a mere prelude to the big topic.

of the weekend in Richard Keyes' world.

Now, Richard Keyes has a talent.

I think it's fair to say it's a talent, Charlie, for spotting things that other people just don't.

He picks up on things that other people are not talking about and makes sure that it gets the right amount of attention.

He tweeted on Sunday evening, the trophy should be at Anfield today.

I can't think of one good reason why it isn't.

They could do it all again on the last day of his palace and involve everyone, but this party needs the silverware.

The fans deserve to see it.

Now, not an invalid point, for sure, but a strange thing to get too preoccupied by, would you say?

It's like he really cares about the party yeah this party need this party is just getting a bit stale needs a bit of a lift just wants everything to be perfect don't we all but there are procedural elements and so we've all discussed you know the manicured kind of stage managed aspects of premier league title celebrations you know they hit the premier league want to get this right and they can't just they can't just be hanging on for the right

been like this like when man united and city and whoever have won the title weeks weeks in advance do they always wait to the last day or do they have they got it where they've won it before i i think it's a relatively recent thing um but they always want the breathing space to be able to make it a thing right i think they did i'm trying to remember if it was i mean obviously like did arsenal get it at old trafford no no they'd always wait for their final home game yeah um maybe engravers just aren't good any game that's sorry as then if you if you're away you'd do it for you'd wait for a home game to do it right i think no they did you always do it like if you think of um like the invincibles they got it on they'd won it like four games earlier but they got it on the last day so i think it has been that way for a while.

Okay, we might be undermining my next line then because how long do you think it is?

Sorry, how long do you think it's too long to talk about this issue on live TV though?

I'll stick my neck out and say that one minute and 26 seconds is too long.

And we have a party to attend this afternoon.

Look at this.

Well, they deserve that because I do have a great deal of sympathy for Liverpool fans that in COVID times couldn't celebrate with their team.

And one thing missing today, and I mentioned it yesterday, and it shouldn't be, is the trophy.

The only, and I'll say it again, and I'll keep saying it: the trophy should be there.

This is a party now without the ingredients to fulfill it as an event.

Should be there.

It doesn't feel like a party.

It doesn't feel like they've won the trophy without a trophy being there.

How would it be if you won an Olympic gold medal and you just came at the end of your race and there was no medal waiting on you?

Wait until the medicals.

It's got to bow the medals down.

And if it was, and if it hadn't worked out, take it back until the time's right.

But

can you make an official presentation on the last day?

Of course you can.

Involve everybody there.

Of course you can.

Present it today, put it even now.

So they're obviously going to do something, aren't they, to recognise what they've achieved?

I think they now leave the field, they go and put shirts on or jerseys on to say

champions for the 20th time.

But they come back out and and

it's like a wedding without the bride or the cake do a lot yep yep i agree yeah a wedding without the bride or the cake

which one richard one of those things is slightly more important than the other

but what's so funny is that people are probably like you listen to that of just hearing their voices you'd imagine it is this sort of like morgue like atmosphere i mean they're all they're all all the players are dancing around the crowds going wild there's there's flares like it does not it's such an odd thing to be sort of obsessing about everyone's having a great time as always Dave we're recording before he's published his blog if that's not like where which paragraph is that going to be of the blog I think that's the lead surely isn't it yeah it could be lovely scenes at Anfield but where was the trophy that would be the headline oh god it's incredible just the way he strings these things out but do you know what one of my the underrated bits of that was andy gray sort of fishing around for an analogy for the situation saying well when you win the race at the olympics and it's like not getting a medal at the end of it that's what happens at the olympics as well

they do it the next day sometimes

you don't just get a medal of your neck after you've coughed the last not yeah it's not the london marathon you right you saying bolt grabs it as he crosses well it's really fun because who's the is it john ob mikal is their guest that's right yeah because again you might think they've got like a sprinter in with them or some sort of olympian as if andy grey's like to put it in terms to help you understand it whereas it's actually just completely apropos of nothing.

A wedding without a cake.

What is the cake?

In Keys's analogy, Dave, if the bride at a wedding is the Premier League trophy of sealing the title, what is the cake?

Is it just the shirts with the backwards message on?

The cake could be the t-shirts in that, like,

you can still do it all.

It's all perfectly legal and whatever, but it would be, you'd be annoyed.

You'd definitely be annoyed if the cake was ruined.

I think the cake actually is the trophy because if the you, the union and the vows and the rings, that is getting it over the line.

That's the final whistle.

You've done it.

You've made it.

And then there's a bit of celebration.

There's clapping.

There's singing.

There's jumping up and down or whatever in the aisles.

Then you go away.

Then you come back.

And cutting the cake really is like Jordan Henderson going, ooh,

and lifting the trophy on the balcony.

Yeah.

What do we know?

We've had two weddings between us.

They've had about six.

So

anyway, thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Thursday with the listeners, Mezza Harlan Dicks.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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