Fact-checking Paul Scholes, caretaker popes & Olivier Giroud's locker

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The second coming of Mark Clattenberg, an unsurprising discovery in the search for the origin of the pre-assist, fact-checking Paul Scholes, footballers' names in Malaysian international footballers' names, something unexpected in Olivier Giroux's 38-year-old locker.

Why not every subbed sub qualifies as the ultimate indignity?

Asda DNA, caretaker popes with Premier League caretaker managers' names, and Richard Keyes on the absolute wind-up.

Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts.

This is Football Clichés.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Football Clichés.

I'm Adam Hurry.

This is the adjudication panel on that panel with me, Charlie Eccleshaire.

How are you doing?

Very well, thank you.

Alongside you, David Walker, how are things?

Yeah, things are good.

I've got a story to share with you that was sent to me by my friend Kieran over the weekend.

And he said he was on Easter Sunday around his brother's house.

Brother's got a couple of kids, young kids, and big fans of Gladiators.

the new modern version of gladiators.

And as I remember doing when I was a kid, apparently they were like playing sort of little mini versions of the games and stuff in the garden and all that.

And instead of pretending to be the gladiators themselves, they were squabbling over who got to be Mark Clattenberg.

What a reinvention it is for him.

This is fascinating because on the Reddit, a guy called Juane Sinclair said, visiting family over Easter, my kids and their cousins decided to play gladiators.

Cue my unambitious daughter, shouting, I'm Mark Clattenberg.

No, I'm Mark Clattenberg.

I want to be Mark Clattenberg, Daddy.

It was that my nieces were then talking about gladiators Gladiators today, and I was waiting, having seen that on the Reddit, I was waiting for a Clattenberg reference, but one didn't actually arrive.

I was sort of just ready to be like, you know about his tattoos?

Are you aware of the backstory of Mark Clattenberg?

Exactly.

This is it, Charlie.

I'm trying to think of another example of someone who might have been a comic figure, you know, without really knowing about it in one phase of their life, and then for another generation being some sort of hero, and then the older generation going, no, no, no, this book's a clown, honestly.

Or at least, you know, he takes himself far too seriously.

I can't can't think of any other example of that.

It's usually the other way around, if anything.

He is, yeah.

The David Icke situation.

Nice example.

When I saw

a similar story was on the Reddit, I did think, oh, God,

is this like one of those sort of urban myth things that people kind of parrot?

But thinking about it, you know, I can remember pretending and playing gladiators, as I said, when I was a kid.

And people did like to be the referee.

You know, that was quite an iconic part of it.

It was a fun voice to adopt, wasn't it, being John Anderson?

I mean, as discussed, Klatz hasn't really got the same personality as Anderson, but I haven't been watching this series, so I don't know if his role has developed or he's taken more of a central role in it at all.

But I do like the idea of, you know, the kids chalking Klatz onto the boots, onto their boots, onto their shoes or something.

I think it's plausible that he will become as iconic as John Anderson in their eyes.

Right, anyway, time for the adjudication panel proper.

Let's revisit a listener's claim the other day that he had invented the term pre-assist back in October 2011, Charlie.

Ex-Optoman Patrick Noon got in touch and said pre-assists were recorded by Opta at least as early as 2011, which was the year I joined.

They were called second assists in the database.

We were told they existed because it was a thing in MLS that players would get bonuses for.

No idea how public that data was made or when it became more mainstream, but it's definitely existed since at least then.

So we've got an idea of when it officially became a thing in English football.

And is it any surprise that the Americans were to blame?

Yeah, well, how does that tally?

Was it, was he, was the listeners claiming, was his evidence from also from 2011?

It was from around.

October 2011, yeah.

It was from October 2011.

Okay, right.

So, yeah,

right at the vanguard.

I mean,

I'd be fascinated to know now if pre-assist bonus is a thing in the Premier League.

I mean, I'd be interested as well with assist bonus, how much that's changed.

You know, we've spoken about how assists have become this big thing.

I mean, did you hit on that topic on assist?

Did you hear there was a whole thing in the Arsenal Ipswich game yesterday about whether the first goal had been a Saka assist or an Odegaard assist.

There was then some Chris Sutton, oh, I've got Odegaard on my fancy team banter.

But

it's completely become acceptable for commentators to care about that on air when previously that would have been completely nothing to us.

You mean caring about their FPL teams, you mean?

No, not that.

I mean, that's been around for a while, but just caring about

making for the assist to be a talking point.

They're going to get a slow-mo replay.

Did Odegardo?

I think the two things are linked, though, genuinely.

I mean, they are, of course.

They're completely linked.

We've touched on this a few times before, I think.

But you use the example of Sutton there.

He's obviously got a podcast on Five Live where it's an FPL podcast that they do.

So he's invested in it.

But yeah, it was a big thing in the FBL because so many people captained Saka because they're playing twice this week.

And then he was basically robbed of an assist.

I definitely think one begets the other.

I was also thinking, was that assist for Odegaard the equivalent of or he just needed an assist in off his bum?

Because he does.

He's been really assist shy.

And that was a complete equivalent of in off off his bum like he sort of he miscontrolled the ball like barely touched it, but he gets an assist for it.

I would say just as assists are to goals generally it's a diluted version of the concept.

It's still relevant, but slightly weaker.

So I'm alright with it because that's that's one of his main objectives, right?

That's his main purpose.

So I guess you can have a drought for that.

Assist drought, yeah.

Because he's been getting in the right positions for assists.

Crucially, yeah, you know, that's when you're worried.

Well, let's blow this listener's claim out of the water because this came via Philosopher on Blue Sky.

And it probably not a huge surprise, actually, because it turns out the Arsenal bloggers were the first to coin the pre-assist, as far as it can be seen.

And this shouldn't be a surprise, because they were also the first to pioneer the manager surname ball phenomenon with Vengeball all the way back in the day.

This is from Ars blog in July 2008.

Frankly, I'm amazed that Alexander Kleb's gone to Barcelona.

I don't know what kind of player they think they're getting.

Perhaps they were looking for someone who can dribble very well well and then pass the responsibility for scoring to someone else.

Or indeed, the legendary pre-assist, which seems to have been invented by Klebermaniacs to justify his existence.

What a great player to have this for, Charlie.

Like, it sums him up quite well.

Yeah, and this is a real, I mean, this is exactly the debate that would be playing out on social media with a player.

Like, Kleb is such a divisive player.

It's really interesting to see that it was

sort of played.

I guess the blogger sphere was kind of the equivalent back then.

Charlie, were you a Kleber maniac?

I have sympathy with Arsblog's view here.

I did find him...

I thought he was quite a frustrating player.

I thought he sort of typified what was wrong with Arsenal at that time.

You were a kleber skeptic, then?

Yeah, a little bit.

Or a kleber agnostic, I think.

Klebmatic, maybe.

Right, next up, this came from Tree Much on Reddit.

Here is Talk Sports Dean Ashton talking about Mickey Van der Venn.

Mickey van der Ven was absolutely outstanding.

What a player he is and what a miss he is.

But they're having to protect him.

Absolute cotton wool wrapped around him because they're desperate for that hamstring or calf not to not to go.

Listen, if there's anyone who knows a thing or two or has some regrets about not being wrapped in cotton wool, it's probably Dean Ashton, Dave.

So this works really well, actually.

Yeah.

Although absolute cotton wool, it's a bit too forceful and strong, isn't it?

For cotton wool.

Maybe you can have different levels, different calibres of cotton wool, Charlie, and Mickey Van der Ven needs the elite level, especially given Tottenham circumstances.

Yeah, or it does sound like absolute radio kind of branching into cotton wool as well, kind of diversification of that brand.

I think if you're saving a player or essentially saving a player day for a European final and then tossing off the league, then that is the absolute of cotton wools, isn't it?

Yeah, it's the appropriate time to wrap someone in cotton wool, for sure.

Being really obvious and overt about it as well, Charlie.

Like, this is the occasion we're wrapping him in cotton wool for.

It's not an ongoing cotton wooling.

It's a wild cotton wooling.

We're not pretending this is what's going on.

Have we touched on before that wrapping someone in cotton wool, whilst metaphorically we understand it,

I mean, it doesn't really...

It would be the opposite of what you'd want to do.

You want to strap someone up really tightly, don't you?

To protect their muscles.

But you're wrapping them up to not use them at all, protect them from outside anything.

Like, this isn't to get them into battle.

This is, you're wrapping them up in cotton wool so that they're not touched by anything.

But also, if someone was going to touch, try and attack them when they're wrapped in cotton wool, it's not very protective either.

No, you want bubble wraps.

I don't know.

I find the touch of cotton wool genuinely, like it really i find it horrible it's kind of like scraping a chalkboard yeah honestly yeah it's oh so it would repel me quite successfully wow it's good to know that i'm for once i'm not the most uptight person on this podcast so you being wrapped in cotton wool would be one of your nightmares You'd hate to be wrapped in

it's more it's just a tactile thing as long as I don't have to touch myself

I'd be okay with it.

Yeah, well Charlie Stagg, we wrapped him in cotton wool from head to toe all weekend.

He hated it.

You bloody would as well, wouldn't you?

Right.

Next up, this came from Gavin Malarkey.

Now,

generally, I thought we would be above this sort of stuff on this podcast, but the level of pedantry from Gavin Malarkey really does deserve recognition.

Here he is, fact-checking Paul Scholes on TNT.

Let's hear Scolsey himself.

He looks well.

He was some player.

Matic obviously played against him quite a few times, me and Rio when he was at Chelsea.

Scolesy there talking about what a great player Nemanya Matic was.

Gavin Malarkey says, Scholes retired in May 2013, Charlie, and Matic rejoined rejoined Chelsea in January 2014.

Rio Ferdinand never faced Matic for Manchester United or QPR.

In Matic's first stint at Chelsea in 09-10, he made three appearances against Wolves, Wigan and Watford.

This is great.

Big fan of that.

Yeah.

I'm also just really fascinated by footballers or athletes in general memories and the thing, you know, you'll often get told, I mean, I've had it before, you do an interview and you're like, oh, that's such a great little detail they told me.

Then you fact-check it, you're like, that never happened.

They never played that.

Yeah, and it's incredibly annoying.

And you're like, what's happened there?

Why have you thought that?

Like, what's the process for getting that so wrong?

Presumably on the flip side as well, there's big moments in their careers that you'll ask them about, expecting them to reveal something interesting and they can't remember it at all.

Yeah, totally.

It's really, really weird, the things that stay with them and those that don't.

Do you think that Scholes and Rio, I mean, not Rio's, Rio's not really involved in this, but Scoles...

having done so much punditry since, do you think he's just, it's just all blurring into what I've watched him so many times?

Desensitized to elite level football and it's just all the same to him.

Yeah.

Not that memorable, I guess.

But yeah, Charlie, you think it might be annoying for a writer.

For a sub-editor, I can tell you, it's incredibly satisfying to pick that stuff apart and have to remove the whole thing.

Nope, sorry.

Yeah.

Good stuff from Gavin Malarkey.

I enjoyed that.

Right, Charlie, I want to know what you think about this.

Matthew Jerry took issue with the BBC's live headline after Arsenal triumphed at the Bernabelle last week.

And it said, Arsenal thrash Real Madrid 5-1 on aggregate.

Matthew Jerry says I don't think 5-1 on aggregate can be considered a thrashing.

In general, I think the term thrashing for football scores has been dumbed down in recent years, but this really takes the biscuit.

Call me old school, but a thrashing should be a win of at least 5 goals without reply, or the winning team must have scored 5 or more goals and maintained a healthy margin over the losers, i.e.

5-1, 6-2, 7-3, etc.

To consider 5-1 over two matches to be a thrashing, albeit against Real Madrid, is ridiculous.

The BBC were the only ones to go with this.

How do you feel about two-legged thrashing?

Yeah, I think given that you could have it so it could be a 5-1 5-1 on aggregate could be a 2-0 and a 3-1, both of which are just very kind of routine wins more than anything.

For that, I think two routines does not make a thrashing.

I mean, I'm just thinking whether it could be...

If you know, if Real Madrid had gone into the second leg 1-0 up and then asked 1-5-0, I think thrashing would be just so

would feel so relevant that you could.

Second leg takes precedence, okay.

Yeah,

even though you're talking more about the second leg, it would feel like an overall thrashing just because

you've just witnessed the thrashing.

But with

the way this tie went, no, that does feel a bit much.

It's awkward, isn't it?

Because, yeah, the thrashiest part of the two ties was in the first leg.

So

you're trying to convey the overall margin of victory over the two legs, which, taken in totality, was significant, even though the second game was 2-1.

It was still.

You could say dominate, couldn't he?

That's what they're trying to get.

They're trying to get that across here, but they've gone with thrash, which I agree with Matthew.

I don't think really nails it.

What's the minimum score over two legs, Dave, that you would accept the word thrash for?

You know, the specifics notwithstanding?

I think, yeah, definitely think higher.

I think two thrashings.

I don't think you can have one of them being tight.

Four and a three could be minimum?

A 7-0 over two legs?

7-0 over two games.

Yeah, and even a 5- and a 2 in that instance would, I think, be okay.

Because the 5 is such a thrashing.

If you then went and beat them 2-0 away, I think that sort of keeps

thrashing out because they'll think, just don't like the use of thrash on aggregate.

It doesn't sit right with me at all.

Yeah, I don't think you have to double it to get an aggregate thrashing.

You don't have to win 10-0 on aggregate.

8.

Let's call it 8.

8-0 is an aggregate thrashing.

This next one came from CJ, Mark Barris-Dams, Carl Taylor, and Jonathan Oates in quick succession.

Leicester City's relegation was sealed on Sunday afternoon, Charlie, and they immediately tweeted, today's result means our place in the 25-26 championship has been confirmed.

A lot of people thought this was a slightly upbeat way of saying you've been relegated from the Premier League, but it rang an immediate bell with me because Southampton, when they were relegated a couple of weeks ago, also tweeted, today's result confirms our place in the championship next season.

Do you think this is like a formal part of the process?

Are they like obliged to do this?

You're part of the championship now.

You've got to big it up.

I mean, what's next?

We booked our place in the championship.

You know, it's safe passage.

Is that sign sealed delivered?

Leicester City will be in the championship.

Please, can you include the at Skybet handle, please, when you tweet this?

You know, we joke, Dave, but is this.

I think this genuinely could be part of the solidarity agreement between the Premier League and the Championship, which is always slightly tense at the best of times.

This, this, you know, essentially paying money to the championship to just keep quiet, will you?

Just shut up and be grateful for what you've got.

I feel like this is part of it.

I'm not sure.

I think it is, as you said, it's more admins desperately trying to put some sort of positive spin on it.

Because otherwise, what are you going to say?

That's sillier.

That's sillier.

We are we've been relegated.

I mean, it is relegation for the boys.

Yeah, I bet it is more prosaic that social media admins are advised, you know, don't use sort of negative terms that might invite a pylon or whatever.

Let's let's move it on.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, take it forward.

Normalized isn't fooling anyone, but they might think it's better, less gloomy.

Listen, fair play.

Right, let's end part one with the footballers' names in things.

It came from Dan Bonington.

It's from the Good Groove with DJ Spooney on BBC Radio 2.

Tom, I absolutely love that.

Mate, you just text in if you want, like you did.

It doesn't really matter.

You know, it's just what we do on the Good Groove.

Don't worry about it.

It's not the news.

Do you know what I mean?

It's just doing that.

Good evening, also to Michael Dewberry, who's listening tonight.

He's texting to say that he's locked and loaded.

I reckon this is the Michael Dubry.

Why wouldn't it?

It can't be that many.

It could be.

It can't be that many.

We should try and we need to dig into this.

Has anyone got a number for Michael Dubry?

That's pretty much why I'm pausing here.

I think

we should be able to do this.

This is quite a mundane detail.

Who do I call to find this out?

Jodi Morris?

I don't know.

If we get his number, just say, Michael, let us know if it wasn't you.

Calling it.

Don't want to disturb you.

I'd like to think they're friends.

They must be roughly the same age.

Spoony and Jubry.

Spoony and Jewry, yeah.

I think they probably are.

What?

They'd be in there.

how old do you reckon dj spoony 40s i'd say i reckon dj spoony's about four he's 54.

oh okay well yeah but jewberry jewberry probably knocking on for that yeah he'd be 49 yeah because he would have been he was sort of early 20s in the late 90s but then if you if you think dave that Spoonie might have been trying to hang out with footballers because yeah and then you know then Blight used to have been younger than him as he was ascending to the peak of his career it probably all works out he's been in and around it I think for a long time he was kind of UK garage DJ initially, I think.

And I bet he DJ'd clubs that footballers used to frequent in the sort of late 90s, early noughties.

I bet they...

There can't be that many degrees of separation between the two of them.

No, absolutely not.

Well, on that sub-revelation, that's the end of part one.

We'll be back very shortly.

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Oh, look at that!

That is wonderful!

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

This is the adjudication panel.

A reminder that you can get in touch at football cliches at gmail.com.

You can DM me on Twitter, Instagram, Blue Sky, or you can get involved on our Reddit page, which has surpassed 28,000 users, Charlie.

That is enough to fill the Reebok Stadium or the Tough Sheet Community Stadium if you want to be

modern about it.

That's a good arena, isn't it?

Yeah.

Once the Macron, wasn't it?

Yeah.

Also that

had a lot of iterations.

Much like us, I suppose.

Yeah, I suppose.

That level pegs us, Dave, with such other rival subreddits as soccer memes.

Good to find out.

Bit of overlap there with us.

Locksmith for all your locksmithing needs.

Who's going to

go to Reddit for locksmiths?

You need a locksmith.

Reddit isn't going to help you, is it?

Get a locksmith.

Get a locksmith.

Locksmith, by the way, just the most SEO-driven thing, right?

You'll Google a locksmith in your area and one will come up and they're from fucking miles miles away, but you've got them then.

That's it.

You're locked in and they're driving from fucking, I don't know, Harpenden or something.

That's it.

Right.

Elsewhere, Croydon, Eintracht, Frankfurt.

What a week it's been for them.

Oh, yeah.

Out of Europe.

But also surpassed by the Football Cliche's podcast on Suffrage.

Mr.

Bean, The Apprentice, UK, and Thai Food.

We're staring down the barrel at getting 30,000.

That's the next market.

Time to move things on.

Come on, everyone.

Join up.

We're on TikTok as well, which I think has got off to something of a flyer, Dave.

I'm happy with our TikTok presence so far.

Yeah, going well.

Yeah.

We've run out of videos, though, so we need to actually make some more.

That's a shame.

It's fine.

Right.

Koj Deck 97 on Reddit alerted me, Charlie, to a player called Dion Johan Kools, who is a former Belgium under-21 defender and now captain of the Malaysia national team.

His mother's Malaysian.

And do you know who he's named after?

Dion Johan Kools.

I mean,

Dublin and Cruyff?

Yes.

Literally.

He is named after Johan Cruyff.

His, you know, Low Countries father admired Johan Cruyff and named him after that.

And then

he and his wife were watching Match of the Day once, Dave, and just saw Deion Dublin and thought, what a lovely name.

So they named a kid after that as well.

I thought you were going to say saw him score that goal

passage given where he ran round and

cheeky chappy.

Yeah.

Oh, that's the sort of guy we want our son to take after.

They didn't specify what game it was on Match of the Day, but I would love to know how and where.

I mean, I think it must have been Coventry era.

um but yeah so so incredible combination of names to be named after right we've seen this sort of things before naskins cabano and that sort of stuff and uh so yeah it's very interesting and um in turn charlie um dion johan cools now has a young son and he has a double first name as well right

and it's liam zane cools

wow named after indeed big fan of one director fair play

in turn i was i was hoping

mark clattenberg cools yeah yeah i was really hoping that the deonyo and next generation would be an equivalent a kind of good premier league good side of premier league striker with a european legend of the game leonel de lapp cools yeah you've got to have first

thing yeah i know but i can't think of any leonel yeah rory leonel cools yeah it could work but yeah i mean fascinating stuff sounds like a fascinating player all round really um over to the world of snooker we always love a bit of snooker chat as the world championship kicks off um listener michael cox directed me towards a fascinating little debate on Facebook, and someone said, Probably the best referee at the moment, in my unbiased opinion, is Tatiana Wollaston.

And someone replied, The good refs go unnoticed, and TW does that very well.

Do referees ever seek the limelight in snooker?

No,

make it about them, yeah, yeah.

I mean, do they ever really have very subtle presences anyway with any of the crucible singing, it's not about you.

I mean,

such a knowledgeable crowd, yeah.

who's the wanker

with the white gloves um and they're just as mime artists anyway they're gonna be

deliberately they only get involved when they have to right by definition it's not like they're just sort of floating around it's always really awkward when they get involved in the play are they it's never never good to hear a snooker referee's voice ever but whether there's a really obscure breaking of the rules charlie that's always fun like really really really random rule has been broken a proper technicality yeah good to know that that level of granular discussion is being made amongst the snooker fraternity, Dave.

I mean, that's the sort of thing you probably would be debating, I guess, if you were really into it.

It makes you wonder, do they have any former referees as part of the sort of commentary team in a Peter Walton-esque role?

Because it would actually be useful, I suppose.

More useful, because in highly technical fouls or violations, maybe you do want an expert opinion.

Fewer and further between than coming together on a football pitch, though, I guess.

Unless they're paid by intervention, maybe.

You can't pay them for the day because you might not need you.

You kind kind of assume the commentators on a sport like that as well will have a really good technical knowledge and they can hopefully help you out in a situation like that your virgos your parrots yeah exactly exactly next up this came from jg it comes from at man city brazil which is the number one brazilian fan page for manchester city responding to someone um posting a video about morgan gibbs white skills this season as he um as talk links him to a move to Manchester City this summer.

And they said that if Morgan Gibbs White was German and called Moritz Gebhard Weiss

more people would be in love with him unfortunately his name he's English and his name is Morgan Moritz Gebhardt Weitz who is he playing for because that's not a name of a top-level football dortmund I mean

sort of the the the latest kind of delicate dainty attacking mid off the Dortmund production line yeah it's not buyer it's he's a player that buyer buy from Bayer Leverkusen or or one of those but he never quite makes it there he's not he sort of

fades under the spotlight of buying Munich.

And then goes back to Dortmund.

Or a pharmaceuticals billionaire who buys like Redding or something like that and absolutely runs him into the ground anyway.

Big news.

Big news.

Dave, Olivia Giroux has broken his 16-game, 15-hour MLS duck.

Finally, we can stop talking about it.

Fair play.

Good goal.

You won't believe it.

It was from a free kick.

Wow.

What a direct free kick.

A direct free kick.

A direct free kick.

It was like Ronald Kuhmans against England in 1993, but with his left foot, obviously.

Dinked in, off the bar, onto the ground, off the bar again and in.

He's going to flick one here.

Yeah, I was going to say he's going to flick one.

He's going to flick one.

That's interesting that Giroux taking free kicks, because, you know, obviously, unless I'm mistaken, I don't recall him taking any for Chelsea Arsenal or anything.

But I suppose it does sort of befits the kind of star player going over to MLS going, oh, I'm just going to take it.

Yeah, all right, guys.

No what's going to stand in his way, are they?

Where does this kind of sit in the pulling rank debate, Charlie?

Because he has no sort of pedigree of taking free kicks at all, but he is 38 years old and he's Olivier Giroux.

Is that enough to pull rank?

Yeah, I think that's,

but that's sort of, if you're going to pull rank, that's where you need to use your rank.

You know, like penalties is kind of like, all right, fair enough, yeah.

To do it on a free kick where you've never really taken one, that is, that's quite a big flex of rank pulling.

I don't know, maybe he's maybe he's found it in his locker after all these years.

Who knows?

Next up, this came from listener Mark Cox.

Could have waited for listeners, Mezzo Harland Dix, but it was in its own right, it's just self-contained and very funny.

So here it is.

The supposed humiliation of subs who get subbed, even though they came on really early in the first half because of an injury.

They shouldn't be...

It's normal that someone would come off after that amount of time.

Just because they came on after eight minutes doesn't mean they have some sort of god-given right to last the rest of the game.

I completely agree with that.

I completely agree.

I've made the same point before.

It's such a silly thing.

It's like we all know it.

It makes no difference.

Like, what are you going to do as a manager?

Oh, I can't take him off.

He did come on.

It's even off eight minutes.

It's irrelevant.

If you need to get him off, get him off.

I mean, despite the surprising amount of confected outrage about this, including Charlie Ecclesia, Dave, there is obviously a very clear tipping point between when it becomes the ultimate indignity and when it becomes just a perfectly natural amount of time to be on the pitch and be taken off because you're a luxury player and you want to bring on some fresh legs or something like that.

And you'll be able to tell in the player's reaction about whether they think it's okay.

And

that's the first thing you're looking at, isn't it?

Not the clock.

You're looking at their face.

Are they bothered about coming off or not?

And I think as a player, you should know as well.

You shouldn't get annoyed if you're

one of these players that Mark and Charlie are talking about.

If you've come on unexpectedly to fill an injury gap or whatever, you know, yeah, you shouldn't be annoyed.

But yeah, obviously, if you, I think, basically, you have to be brought on in the second half for perceived tactical or fresh legs reasons, and then if you get subbed off, fine.

I actually did this myself earlier in this season, quite early in the season for Ribblesdale.

And I've actually, I reflect on it poorly.

I feel really

bad about it.

He was registered big time.

But I brought him on in the second half in a game we hadn't won yet.

It was, we were, I think we were 3-1 up.

And he came on and I subbed him off after about 10 minutes with about five minutes left.

I just, I was just panicking.

I just, I wanted to get another defender on and just try and really see this game out.

And I could tell that he wasn't very happy.

He did throw his shirt at you, he did throw a shirt, but

yeah, yeah, I don't think he was very happy.

And understandably so.

I didn't handle that situation particularly well.

Give me some ballpark minutes, Charlie, to bookend this

acceptable

non-ultimate indignity sub-appearance.

I mean, 1075.

That that's sort of fine, you mean?

That that wouldn't be

that shouldn't be happening.

I mean, because I think that's fine because if you went off after 65 minutes, no one's

because you could move that window.

It could be 20, 20, 85, and still

the later it gets it, the more fine it is, presumably.

Yeah, I mean, well, what's a period?

Basically, if you get taken off at half time, that's humiliating.

That's a hooking.

That's a hooking.

Yeah, that's a hooking.

Exactly.

So if you play any less than 45 minutes, whether you've come on or not, I think that is, yeah, that's a bit embarrassing and obviously if you've come on then you extend you know it's not quite the same obviously if you if you get taken off after 52 minutes but you've started that's kind of fine you're annoyed but it's not humiliating yeah you've got to make it an hour you've got to make it an hour

yeah so I think if you're a sub yeah you any less than that and you are a bit like I've I'm getting subbed off and I've not played loads yeah that that is pretty bad I think the hour window works no matter where you slide it so yeah We've solved it.

Excellent.

Right, finally for this part two, this came from George Brindley.

He says, this is from Consumer Comparison Supremo's Witch.

And they're talking about Asda's fortunes.

And they say, despite Asda often being named one of the cheapest major supermarkets in our monthly supermarket price comparison, survey respondents were clearly aware that price and value don't necessarily mean the same thing.

It got just two stars for value for money as well.

This might explain why Asda has been losing shoppers, with its slice of the grocery market shrinking in recent years.

New boss Alan Layton, who turned around the chain's fortunes in the late 90s, has pledged to restore Asda's DNA by

among other things, reviving its rollback pricing.

This is a great use of DNA, Charlie.

I kind of know what they mean in a sense, like I do think Asda has changed quite a lot.

You know, some would say for the better, but like it used to have a very kind of bargain basement-y feel to it.

It was quite like a good, cheap option.

Then maybe, then it sort of maybe peaked when it was like still pretty cheap, but the quality had improved, which is maybe this, you know, that late 90s turnaround.

But then maybe it went too far the other way.

It's like a club that it sort of was, perhaps it was ahead of its time in its heyday but it's been caught up and then overtaken by the likes of Aldi and Liddell right you know you can't stand still Brentford and Brighton have come up and now they've knocked some previously Premier League stalwarts out of the mid-table of the Premier League Brentford and Brighton are Aldi and Liddell in many ways aren't they so who are who are the Asda of this scenario then

Spurs aren't the ASDA are they I mean no can't say they've been left behind yet because they're leading the way in so many other ways so could it be like a West Ham something like that West Ham?

Yeah, because they've had a way, they had a DNA, and they're now floundering.

Yeah, so now they're just,

you know, a bit soul and they've lost their soul, as some would argue, Asda have.

Yeah.

Bring back.

Bring back the Academy.

Yeah.

As to a West Ham.

So

this is like West Ham reappointing Harry Redknapp, then, isn't it?

Or getting Alan Layton back?

It's the same guy, knows all the stores.

I'm glad this has been brought up, though, because genuinely, I did sort of think about this recently, because I saw a TV advert for Asda and it was a return to their

slapping the back pocket on your bum with the change in it.

And it's come back.

So this must be a...

He's bringing this back as well.

Yeah, there we go.

Back to basics.

Another option would be Everton as well as a kind of faded giant who'd been overtaken by smarter rivals.

Given they're always held up as being like the height of excess.

Didn't it has to get bought out by Walmart as well?

It got bought by Americans, didn't they?

Oh, love it.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

mean, this does beg the extended debate of who is Tesco and who's Sainsbury's.

Save that for another day.

That's for the Reddit, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, fine.

Right, we'll be back with part three very shortly, and it's another great Keys and Gray, by the way.

Welcome back to Football Clichés.

Part 3 begins with this from Babs.

Dave, they say I was on the bus home from work a few days ago and accidentally called for the stop before where I was supposed to get off.

I realised my mistake as I was standing up and noticed the driver looking at me through his mirror, waiting for me to move forward.

As I was near the back of the bus and needed a way to convey what had happened, I instinctively raised my hands above my head to do the finger twirling substitution signal whilst mouthing the words next one.

After a few seconds of awkward hesitation, the driver seemed to understand, closed the doors and we set off again.

I spent the rest of my journey home wondering whether that hand gesture was the most appropriate for this scenario or if years of consuming football had once again sneaked its way into my daily life.

Is that the most appropriate way of denoting to a driver that that wasn't the stop you wanted?

What could he misconstrue it for?

Because if it's the substitution one, yeah, I suppose it does sort of work.

I think I would have just gone with the sort of like, I'd pointed, I would have pointed to the next one.

Like,

don't you do the sort of VAR cancel thing that you're saying like, no, scrapple that.

That's quite rude though, isn't it?

That's rude.

Nothing doing.

You're just saying that no longer counts.

And then you're sort of pointing to the next thing.

Crouching down just to look at the bus stop just to make it clear that you were really looking at it.

I mean, obviously, I sympathise with the anxiety here.

You could easily get yourself into a bit of a muddle with this situation.

But probably would have just been fine if you did nothing.

I don't think it was going to be like the other day when Fulham accidentally substituted a player.

They went, no, you're sorry, mate.

You've pressed the button.

You've got to go.

You're off.

Look, I wish it was different.

I know it's a mistake, but you're off, mate.

No, you can't hold your nerve and do nothing.

You've got to gesture something.

And the driver will hopefully get it.

But the problem is, in this situation, Dave, what if the driver misconstrues that the substitution rotation finger gesture is very similar to the moving ball gesture from a referee?

And they might construe it as, I know, the bus is still moving, I can't get off, or something like that.

It could happen.

And we don't know.

It hasn't been tested enough.

Oh, goodness me.

Right.

Next up, this is from the latest episode of Fighting Talk on BBC Radio 5 Live.

Here's Rick Edwards introducing ex-EastEnders ace, Jake Wood.

Actor, dancer, artist, character is still alive, we think, living in New Zealand.

He's got business.

Yeah, apparently.

You've just told me that this morning.

Jake Wood is here.

Doesn't re-watch EastEnders anymore.

No, I do.

I do.

I do check in.

You've checked in.

They've had a good year, aren't they?

40th year.

So it's all good.

This is incredibly.

still keeps an eye out for their results isn't it charlie it's been going well yeah

you know good manager yeah the addition dave of it's been a good year for them is very yeah they go well under manager x yeah when the ratings come out they're the first team i look forward every time

that is tremendous um i'm on fighting talk on saturday by the way so completely out of my depth once again can't wait you've been on before haven't you uh third time third time okay yeah just rick edwards i find him massively intimidating in the flesh there's nothing i could do so there you go right who wants to see the subtlest ever games gone moment?

Dale Johnson of ESPN, who who's very keen on these details, Dave, he says that Chelsea versus Manchester United is being played the Friday night before the FA Cup final, which is the breaking of a promise allegedly made this season that no Premier League games will ever take place on the Friday night before the FA Cup final to allow focus on the build-up to the showpiece event.

This is a bit late in the day to be enforcing this sort of stuff.

They don't do the build-up this early anymore.

Have they ever done it on the Friday night?

I mean, it's all of the

mythical build-up that we hear about from back in the day.

It was obviously like, I don't know, 8am breakfast TV and it was bleeding up the whole day.

I can understand annoyance if there was a 12.30 kickoff on the same day as the FA Cup.

But the Friday night, it's all right.

This was a compromise move, Charlie, because the FA Cup final now takes place on the penultimate weekend of the Premier League season.

So they want to clear the decks in some way.

So no league games take place on that day.

But they don't take place on the Friday either.

I love this idea that, you know, a Premier League game played on Friday night could impinge upon the build-up the next morning.

No one's talking about it because it still didn't get that red card last night.

I know, and imagine, like, if your team was in the FA Cup, like, how little you'd care that there was a game or I would care.

I probably wouldn't follow it or engage with it because I'd be so excited about the FA Cup final, but you know, it's not going to.

You'd be too excited to watch.

But it was in, like,

I wouldn't care.

Like, I'm not focused on it, but all my attention is not going to be like, oh, actually, that really diluted the FA Cup Final experience for me because I was so distracted by Chelsea V United on a Friday night.

I just wouldn't give a shit.

You've got to think about

it.

Or I'd happily watch it and let it wash over.

Yeah,

that's what I had in mind.

But you've got to think of all the possible scenarios here, Dave.

Are future foreign-based Premier League stars all crowded around a telly on the Friday night watching the Premier League game as well?

Yeah, it was a tradition.

Like Christmas Eve.

It ruined the FA Cup final, actually.

We didn't watch it.

But yeah,

I didn't know this was a thing, and I can't really imagine anybody getting too angry about it.

So this could be the smallest possible Games Gone moment we've ever seen.

But nevertheless, it does, it has happened, and they have reneged on their promise.

Now, the big news on the day that we record, Pope Francis has passed away, and

until a successor has been announced,

it is said that the day-to-day running of the Catholic Church is now in the hands of Irish Cardinal Kevin Farrell, which is the name of a Premier League caretaker manager, if ever I saw one.

He's managing Crystal Palace when Glasnard gets sacked.

Kevin Farrell will take charge of first team affairs, ably assisted by

veteran cardinal.

I don't know.

He's not going to keep Kevin Farrell on.

You can't be the Pope.

Coming interim Pope, Kevin Farrell.

Pope Kevin.

Well, bear in mind as well.

Yeah, I mean, obviously, we're not used to seeing real, like, Pope's actual names, so it's particularly jarring to just get a Kevin Farrell in amongst the normal papal titles.

I don't know what his popy name would be.

Obviously, everybody on Reddit enjoyed this one in or and around.

Dave replied with: If his name was Calvino Feraldici, he'd be a shoe-in for the jump full time.

Calvino Feraldici.

Brilliant.

Has he thrown his little cap into the ring?

He surely will.

Oh, dear.

Anyway, anyway, speaking of legendary figures with the faith of millions people in their hands, it's time for Keys and Grey Corner.

Now,

I did a bit of research here and I started, it made me start to think, Charlie, would Richard Keyes care about there not being an English pope since 1159?

Time to take a chance, one of our boys, do you think?

866 years of hurt since Nicholas Breakspear became Pope Adrian IV.

Nikki.

He doesn't really get involved in these matters very often, but, you know,

as we know about him, he does have a, you know, he's plugged into world events.

So it wouldn't surprise me if he, you know, just kept his eye on it.

I think if he'd even had so much as like a passing encounter with anyone vaguely linked, then he would massively have skin in this game.

I mean, the numbers are damning, Dave.

Much like the number of English coaches operating at the highest level, only four of the 252 current Cardinals are English.

Vincent Nicholls, Michael Fitzgerald, Arthur Roche, and Timothy Radcliffe, none of whom are considered likely successes.

Yeah, but I mean, do we...

It's not quite the same, is it?

We don't really have a claim to it in the same way that we do with our game.

I was going to say, yeah, exactly.

I don't know if they're having these discussions in other parts of the world.

Just not our thing.

Fair enough.

But yeah, maybe Keesy doesn't care about it at all.

But lovely.

A bit of correspondence we got after we published the highlights video of Keys and Gray's two-hour live stream on BN Sports the other day.

Melwood Barista analysed the footage very carefully and circled the little bag next to Keysy's seat.

And Dave says, if I'm not mistaken, Keese is flaunting a Gucci GG Supreme web pouch men's clutch bag.

Easily north of £600 to carry your iPad around.

Listen, fair play.

Keesey's got expensive tastes.

That's nice.

Could he buy that, possibly buy that in Doha Duty Free?

I bet he's such a duty-free advocate.

He'd love telling people about the discounts he's got on some of his designer items.

Interesting here that we're, you know, the three of us are implying that Keechy would have sought it out and bought it himself.

It does ooze family present, though, doesn't it?

Thanks for that.

Something to carry the iPad in.

Fantastic.

Oh, love it.

I mean,

on his wedding invite that we've seen, doesn't his wife talk about Dickie wanting to be fabulous or looking fabulous or something?

So maybe she's kind of decked him out in some of this.

Or it might be on the wedding list.

600 quid Gucci.

Wow, yeah.

Yeah.

Listen, it's the only chance you get.

Rinse it.

Why not?

Now, it was such a good two hours on being for their live stream last week.

They were back to business this weekend in the normal studio,

normal surroundings.

And

how could it possibly top what we saw last week?

Well, they gave it a very, very good go.

Keese in tremendous wind-up mood.

First issue they took care of, is Reuben Amarim good enough for Manchester United?

If you you don't, then who?

Who?

And that is the question.

That is the question.

Do you want me to answer the question when you posed who?

Yes.

Gareth Southgate.

On what grounds?

On the grounds that he's taken England to two European Championship finals, on the grounds that he understands the modern player and what's required in order to make the modern player feel good about himself, his football team, and the club that he plays for, that he is a master of manipulation and motivation.

And I would say.

Sorry, it's just the same kind of southgate I've heard you chat to me about all these years.

Come on.

He's magnificent.

You can tell it's motivated.

He said England's so-called wonderful players.

And took him to two finals.

And we're going to be able to get him.

He's a whisker away from winning something.

One nothing.

Why?

Didn't he win?

Why?

Well, because he made a mess of it and rolled the ball.

No, how did they

won against Italy at Wembley?

Can he be responsible for Harry Kane sticking a pen over the bar?

Of course he can't.

He was given England's best English.

And was a whisker away from success.

Yes.

He might as well be a mile away.

Because Gareth Southgate won't be spending money necessarily.

It would be the collective that's around him at Manchester.

So you believe as a tactician he's so much better?

I believe he's somebody that understands the modern player as well as and better than most.

You speak to people that have worked with him and they will give him a glowing reference.

Well, I know lots of people that work with lots of college will give them glowing references, but it doesn't mean they're any good.

Now, Charlie, this is a great, great showcase of Keesy in that mode, knowing that he doesn't really believe what he's saying, but just sitting there with the expression on his face saying, go on, beat me.

And

unfortunately, as good as that showcase is, it's completely overshadowed by Andy Gray thinking that creme de la creme is pronounced creme de la creme.

That's how I'm going to say it from now on.

Why not mix it up?

Creme de la creme.

I mean, but Andy Gray's right because it doesn't Keese call him Safegate, isn't that one of the things that we're going to do?

Yeah, he does.

Yeah, obviously.

Keys Kesey nicknames, yeah.

Yeah, so clearly he is just on the wind-up.

I mean, and also, this is this is proper heritage because it was a debate about the next Man United manager that prompted the McAteer.

Why?

Wow.

When he suggested Laurent Blanc, I think,

to be the next Man United manager there.

So that was Keesy just warming up in wind-up mode.

Now, next up, should Liverpool play Trent Alexander Arnold ever again?

Why would you play Alexander Arnold again?

Why?

What's the point?

I don't know.

Jeeves?

Jesus?

Thanks.

No, why got him at work?

No, but listen.

What's the point?

Then, you know, let him play.

Let him just see how.

Well, why not?

Because there's no point.

It's over.

So there's no point playing it.

But Richard,

he's been a great.

He's come through the academy.

He's been part of the first title for how long?

He's won the Champions League.

He's been a massive part of this season as well.

And he has been

give him his five minutes.

What is the point?

There's no point.

Let him play out his his last four games or five games for Liverpool.

Why not?

Because there's no point.

But there is point.

If Liverpool want to keep him, pay him when he can't go anywhere else.

Give him, obviously, what he wants.

I'm not saying

that's not my argument.

So

there's a two-way argument, isn't it?

No.

Not for Keese.

But Virgil Van Dyke, you are.

I'm playing him today.

I'm playing it with him.

I'm playing him.

Are you playing him?

I'm playing him.

I'm playing him.

Last few games.

Dave,

this is like a tightrope walk of broadcasting.

This is Keesy Keesy right at the limit of how much of a piss taker he can be without it sort of actually becoming a parody.

Like, it's still a live broadcast with some genuinely serious discussions to be had, and he's right on the edge.

Yeah, but it's also the quality of the debate is sort of reminiscent of sort of teenagers just sort of being insolent.

Why?

What's the point?

Why not?

What's the point?

The response to why is why not?

So.

It's amazing.

Okay, so if you think that Keesy could get more petulant and more entrenched in a position he doesn't really believe in, let's take this final clip.

This is Richard Keyes on how Liverpool's impending title win will be remembered.

The top teams this year, all of them, have gone backwards.

All of them.

It's how you frame it, isn't it?

And if you want to frame it like that, that's right.

That's how it is.

That's why I framed it.

No, it's not, because I could frame it.

We could try and dress it up and say, I'll tell you what.

First of all, there are no pictures on scorecards, and the history books will just say Liverpool won the title this year.

They won't say it's been a good time.

so.

But it won't say it's been a good season and it's been vintage and it's been tough.

It hasn't.

But at the end of the day, like if you want to dress it up like this, they've beaten the Spanish champions Madrid, they've beaten the French champions Paris, they've beaten the German champions Leverkusen, doesn't matter who it is.

They've also beaten twice.

They've been in the Premier League season.

Right, they've also beaten twice.

But if you want to talk about just the Premier League, I'll go into that now.

They've beaten Manchester City twice.

If you also look at Europe, hold on, if you want to look over Europe and talk about

Europe, we've got an English team in the Champions League semi-final.

No, we've got two English teams in the European league.

And an English team in the semi-final of the Copy of the League season.

I don't want to look at Europe.

It's right up there in my top 10 Keesys of all time.

It's a sleeper hit, but it is right up there.

It's such a domestic argument, isn't it?

I want to look at Europe.

Yeah.

Not talking about that.

You know, as always with Keesy Charlie, as kind of near-parodic as he's trying to be, there is obviously still a grain of logic in there, like he can cling on to.

Like, you know, things that you could argue with, but do respect.

Like there are grains of logic there.

I mean, yeah,

typically the things he's debating are conversations that are being had elsewhere to varying degrees.

And this is what, you know, this has been a talking point.

How good

are Liverpool?

Obviously, most people would sort of raise it as a discussion point, but then accept, nah, but you know, they, they are pretty good.

You know, I mean, they're on for whatever it is.

They could still get like 94 points or something.

He's got McAteer on the ropes, though, really, isn't he?

He's sort of playing with him.

You can tell he's enjoying it.

Oh, yeah.

McAteer really, really coming into his own at the moment.

It's got to the point now with B and Sports Safe.

I don't want this season to end.

They're peaking too late.

Like, this is good stuff.

Ever since Keese sat back in his chair at the start of that two-hour live stream, he said, I just want to talk about how I talk at the golf club.

And, you know, that's how it's going to be.

And I said, this is how it's turned out.

And, oh, what a great last couple of weeks this season could be, peaking with the Champions League final.

I was interested to see that Keesy was trending on Twitter on Sunday evening.

You always think, oh, what's happened here?

But then when I saw it, it was just, yeah, Liverpool fans having a go at him.

Being Sports pinned the video to the top of their feed.

They were very proud of it.

And fair enough, it's genuinely box office.

And

quite literally, actually, Charlie, because I would actually pay for access to this.

So, yeah.

100%.

On demand.

Well, yeah, let's hope that people agree with us.

Charlie, thanks to you for your adjudication panel efforts today.

Thank you.

Thanks to you, Dave Walker.

Thank you.

Thanks to everyone for listening.

We'll be back on Thursday.

See you then.

This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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