Accidentally patronising commentary, the Battle of the Big Dan B's & Keysey meets Piers

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Speaker 6 I'm sorry, you can sit there and look and play with all your silly machines as much as you like.

Speaker 7 Is Gascoigne going to have a crack?

Speaker 2 He is, you know. Oh, I think.

Speaker 2 Brilliant!

Speaker 2 But jeez! He's round the goalkeeper! He done it!

Speaker 2 Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and kung fu kicked a supportler who was Iwip without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip. Oh, a save!

Speaker 2 It's amazing! He does it tame and tame and tame again. Break up the music! Charge a glass!

Speaker 2 This nation is going to dance all night!

Speaker 7 Head loss versus heads gone. Cliché's catchphrases in unexpected places.
An unashamed appeal for your vote at the FSA Awards. Steve McManaman co-commentating on a small child's drawing.

Speaker 7 early, early Christmas presents, famous footballing brothers in mermaid drama credits, Big Dan Verne versus Big Dan Ballard, tinpot scenes at the Under 17 World Cup, and Piers Morgan goes head to head with Richard Keys.

Speaker 7 Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts. This is Football Clichés.

Speaker 7 Hello everyone and welcome to Football Clichés. I'm Adam Hurry.
This is the adjudication panel. Joining me of course is Charlie Eccleshare.

Speaker 2 How you doing? Very well, thank you.

Speaker 7 Alongside you is David Walker. How are things? Things are good.
Charlie, a compelling WhatsApp from you this weekend.

Speaker 7 He says, in relation to my kids, I was discussing with my wife the differences between head loss and heads gone. I daren't ask the context behind that, but a nuanced topic indeed.

Speaker 7 I mean, talk me through your logic between them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think they are quite similar. To me, head loss is a slightly more temporary and extreme thing.
Heads gone, I think that lasts for a slightly longer time.

Speaker 2 His head's just completely gone.

Speaker 7 So head loss, Dave, we're going to be able to get a little bit of a message.

Speaker 2 Headloss is a moment.

Speaker 7 Headloss, Dave, is an angry reaction to something that's just happened. Heads gone is, you know, existentially, that's it, you're irretrievable.
Past the point of no return, yeah, it's gone.

Speaker 7 Whereas loss, you can calm down and get yourself back in the game. Well, I hope it was the first one then, Charlie,

Speaker 7 for your offspring.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it was actually historical. It didn't happen over the weekend, so all good.

Speaker 7 Good.

Speaker 7 Dave, I I don't know if this was just the Clichés Pod's cultural reach or some galaxy brain marketing strategy, but this was spotted by several listeners in an advert during the Commode and Mayo's Take podcast.

Speaker 8 Mark, are Black Friday and Cyber Monday stressful flashpoints that whip people into a spending frenzy, or a good chance to get presents for Christmas at great prices? A bit of both, I suppose.

Speaker 8 You want Shopify in and around your business this November. Shopify's marketing tools will help push your brand to the forefront of the chaos and helps helps them get the shop away.

Speaker 2 What is going on? Who wrote that? What is this?

Speaker 7 I'd say

Speaker 7 the least likely scenario is that Mark Comode and Simon Mayo are big fans of the pod and have decided to do that themselves.

Speaker 7 The most likely scenario is that whoever is writing that ad or producing the pod is a fan of clichés and has decided to have some fun with it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, Charlie, some real gusto with that last bit that gets the shop away.

Speaker 7 At that point, they must be wondering what the hell this script was about, but yeah, can't say they're fully invested in

Speaker 7 the niche material.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I like the idea they're thinking they're really thinking carefully about the script. It might be that it's all kind of lightly washing over them.
Who can say?

Speaker 7 Who can say? I do like the idea of the producer recording this advert with Kimoda Mayo and say, guys, can you just,

Speaker 7 you know, the bit where it says gets the shop away? Can you just do that again, but sort of sing it a little bit for me?

Speaker 7 What is going on here? Absolutely not. But yeah.

Speaker 7 But yeah, what a great time for the Clichés Pod to be spreading its cultural wings because we have been nominated for the sixth time at the Football Supporters Association Awards for Podcast of the Year.

Speaker 7 We want to win it, Dave, don't we?

Speaker 7 There's no pretending to be done here. We want this.
We'd love to win it, yeah, for sure. And we need you to vote.
All you listeners out there, we need you to vote for us if we're going to win it.

Speaker 7 Last year, the Football Ramble somewhat surprisingly won it, given that the Guardian Football Weekly seemed to have an iron grip over this award for several years. So

Speaker 7 perhaps it is up for grabs. Yeah, are Ramble Leicester here, Charlie? Yeah, I don't know if that was better or worse.

Speaker 2 It was kind of like Football Weekly. But Football Weekly winning it is like City winning the Premier League every year.
It's like you can make your peace with that. Like, that's fine, whatever.

Speaker 2 But then Rambled it was like, but that really could have been us. Yeah.
And even they read it, because it wasn't, I remember that moment where they read it out and it wasn't Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 2 It was like straight into football. And you had this like split second.
So I guess it gives gives hope that it might not be Football Weekly every year.

Speaker 7 You could possibly say that Ramble are Liverpool. You know, they've been around for a long time.
Oh, no question.

Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 7 I think we wouldn't be Leicester, but I think we'd be like Villa or someone.

Speaker 2 In 94.

Speaker 7 A surprising, you know,

Speaker 7 someone who's in the mix, but then just comes through the pack and wins it, surprisingly. I don't know where to place us, but I don't care now because I just want to win it.

Speaker 7 So go to vote.football clichés.com. Yes, we have a special URL for this.
Hopefully that gives us the edge over the competition. I don't care.

Speaker 7 If you love this podcast like we do, please vote for us because it really would be the icing on our cake. Perhaps even the cherry.
Right, time for the adjudication panel.

Speaker 7 This first one came from Danny Scott. It's superb.

Speaker 7 With athletic Bill Bow 2-0 down at Newcastle and the clock ticking down in the Champions League last week, Steve McManaman provides perhaps the most unintentionally patronising piece of co-commentary ever recorded.

Speaker 7 That's a nice turn.

Speaker 2 Oh, good effort and popat again.

Speaker 11 Interesting, actually.

Speaker 7 Solaro, yes, great effort. Because Nick Paul wasn't set, he wasn't in the middle of his goal.
He actually makes a good save, sneaking in. It was a really good effort and a great save from him.

Speaker 7 Just bounces before them.

Speaker 7 Charlie, that tone is so recognisable to me when you have to congratulate your child for doing a six out of ten piece of work.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, last week I went to my younger son's changing nursery, so I had to go and have settling in days with him. So I was with him as he was being talked to by his new key worker and stuff.

Speaker 2 And it's a very similar tone. It's like, do you want to play with a puzzle? You're doing great.

Speaker 2 McManaman should, you know, he could double up and go work at a nursery.

Speaker 7 Danny Scott's bang on here, David, is weirdly patronised. It's like, well done, athletic Bill Powell.

Speaker 7 You might have limited yourselves with your Cantera policy, but you've produced a fairly decent speculative effort for 25 yards against Nick Pope there. Could have snuck in.

Speaker 7 He's full of surprises, McManaman, isn't he? His co-compass just keeps on giving it. He's really good.

Speaker 7 Worrying scenes, Charlie, on the weekend of the 8th and 9th of November on soccer Saturday, the Preston goalkeeper gifting a gold to Millwall was presented as an early Christmas present.

Speaker 7 I think that might be the earliest one on record.

Speaker 2 Yeah, funny enough, I sent another one. I think it was to do with Dover Athletic, but there was an early Christmas present there as well.
So, yeah, I mean, you know, when Bonfire Night is barely

Speaker 7 still fresh in memory, isn't it, Bonfire Night? Yeah, horrendous scenes. Right, time for footballers' names in things now.

Speaker 7 This came from Simon Meeke, and with a heavy heart, we return to the Reacher novels.

Speaker 12 Soon to be the largest, if Strickland had his way,

Speaker 12 and already the most profitable. The same time Reacher was heading back to town, Strickland was walking through an area that was usually full of armored vehicles.

Speaker 12 He was on his way to a walled-off space at the far end of a bay. It was nominally his office, but more often than not he slept there when he was stateside.

Speaker 12 He fished a key from his pocket, but before he could work the lock he heard footsteps approaching. Two sets, both moving fast.
He adjusted the patch that covered his left eye.

Speaker 12 He had lost it to an IED along with his left arm when he was serving in Iraq and 03.

Speaker 12 Then turned to see who was coming. Two men hurried into view.

Speaker 12 Steve McLaren, the operations director, who was tall and rangy with a freshly shaved head, and David Moyes, VP of procurement, who was his physical opposite, short and stout, with gray hair and a matching straggly beard.

Speaker 7 We've said it before, Dave. Lee and Andrew Child, authors of the Reacher novels, are out of control.
David Moyes. Wow, and Steve McLaren.

Speaker 7 So they've taken steps there to make sure that the physical appearance of the characters in the book is as far away as possible from the real-life counterparts.

Speaker 7 Steve McLaren shaving off his McLaren's Island.

Speaker 7 Yeah, both very describable faces, I would say, Charlie, for a novel. I am least reassured that he didn't go down that, you know, hyper-accurate route.

Speaker 2 Yeah, then it becomes sort of weird fan fiction. Yeah,

Speaker 2 which you don't want.

Speaker 7 David Boys, honestly, we really need to rein this in. But this next one's very curious.
It came from Jack Evans, who's staying in a hostel on the Gold Coast in Australia.

Speaker 7 And he's watching Naughty's Nickelodeon mermaid drama H2O Just Add Water.

Speaker 7 And in the credits, you've got the costume designers, the makeup artists, and the mermaid tale wranglers, Jack Charlton and Robert Charlton. This is silly, Jack.

Speaker 2 That's amazing. That's amazing.

Speaker 7 Jack Without the K.

Speaker 2 Jack's spelled differently, though, isn't it? Yeah.

Speaker 7 But you sometimes get this in credits, Dave, you know, just sort of silly credits. And the mermaid tale wranglers is presumably one of those, but a sneaky little football reference.

Speaker 7 The Jack Without the K is strange, though, if it is made up. I didn't have time to look him up on IMDb, Jack Charlton, to know if that is indeed his just specialist role across all mermaid films.

Speaker 2 He will wrangle their tales. Yeah.

Speaker 7 Listeners, get in touch if you know the story behind that one. Finally, this is from Adam Freiwald.
It's from Murder Town Series 5, Episode 2.

Speaker 7 And the policeman interviewed in a shadowy room about a case was DCI Jeff Hurst from Lancashire Police.

Speaker 7 Spelled exactly the same as well. He must get a lot of banter about that.
Class man standing.

Speaker 2 Jeff Hurst.

Speaker 7 It's a normal name, Charlie, but you never considered the idea that someone else might be called that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, there must be

Speaker 2 loads of people. Was it actually, Jimmy Greaves actually should have been the DCI? That's the thing.
Like, really, you know,

Speaker 2 if you actually look at it, look at the Lancashire Police Force. He was the better policeman.

Speaker 7 Next up, this came from George Winter. It's Football Conversations in Films.
This is Ken Loach's Sorry We Missed You from 2019.

Speaker 7 And I want us just to appraise the kind of accuracy and the realism of this football conversation. It is a parcel delivery guy, and the door is answered by a Newcastle fan.

Speaker 4 Parcel figure. Just give us a secret to him up.
Cheers.

Speaker 9 What's up?

Speaker 4 United, mate. Man United.
Man United? Yeah.

Speaker 10 Seriously? Yeah. Why?

Speaker 13 Why not support a local team? Even Sutherland's better than that shade. It is my local team.

Speaker 14 I'm from Manchester.

Speaker 13 Where a bottoms, man, I've never seen a man you fan from Manchester. I mean, like, goodie London.

Speaker 4 Yeah.

Speaker 13 Yeah, you got.

Speaker 4 What's that?

Speaker 13 Must have been a long and upsetting day for you, that mate. What's that? When you think you're winning the league, seconds to go, man City hanging on.

Speaker 13 Last kick of the game, Sergio Guerrero pops up, wins the title, takes it off your hands.

Speaker 13 You win the title, you win, fuck all. Must have been torture for you.
It was fucking great. And then he pissed meself off and mate.
What a day that was.

Speaker 4 Funny, innit? Aye.

Speaker 14 Not as funny as the time that you lot were 12 points clear the way and you blew it. Do you remember when Keegan went and tell him of his little rant after Fergie got in his head?

Speaker 14 I'd love it, I'd love it if we beat him.

Speaker 14 Yeah, and then we come up here and King Geric puts one past your lot, one nil, and who won the league? Us, not fucking you. Alright, you are cantonal, pal.
I'll see you in a bit. Enjoy the pastel.

Speaker 14 Have a good day.

Speaker 11 Sunday up 2 hours 20th, 1996 with Biggest Five. Five note, and I fucking loved it.
Loved it. Man, fuck off, you motherfucker.

Speaker 7 Think it's Charlie. There are elements of this that are incredibly real.
Like, this is a perfectly plausible bit of banter that could happen, but it's the sheer weight of exposition in the air.

Speaker 7 All the little details. It's like Charlie Eccleshare on Happy Hunting Grounds.

Speaker 2 A couple of things to raise. One, and this may be true.
Maybe some fans just do love Charlotte Freud so much, but he talks about how great a day that was when City lost the league.

Speaker 2 Sorry, when City won the league in 2012. Newcastle did also miss out on a Champions League spot that very day.
They lost away at Everton. So it was actually quite a bad day for Newcastle.

Speaker 2 So maybe this fan was just so preoccupied with what was going on. You know, he hates Manchester United that much, but I would say I don't think that was a great day, really.
Focus on your own team.

Speaker 7 Brilliant work from you.

Speaker 2 He also, as he's leaving, he could turn around and be like, yes, you did beat us 5-0. We did also go on to win the league that's happening.
So it was ultimately irrelevant.

Speaker 7 My favourite bit of extra information in there, which completely ruined the realism of it, Dave, was the rundown of Kevin Keegan's ramp, which is, of course, so iconic and so embedded in the football consciousness in this country that it would never need explaining to the other person, especially if they were a Newcastle fan.

Speaker 7 But it's these little bits of football conversation and films that just go on just too long.

Speaker 7 It won me round by the end, though, because the initial escalation I thought was a bit weird from the Newcastle fan. Like, just unnecessarily aggressive

Speaker 7 escalation. Although, that even that said, I think as we experienced recently in Newcastle after the quiz, where there was a particularly hostile is not the word, but

Speaker 7 there was a

Speaker 7 Newcastle fan who was in the presence of some Sunderland fans.

Speaker 2 Oh, God. Who

Speaker 7 just was very visibly uncomfortable with their presence.

Speaker 7 So angry. So football fans do have this in them to just be weirdly aggressive

Speaker 7 in sort of non-aggressive situations. But I like the way that...

Speaker 7 by the end i the escalation of it all kind of made sense but i did also like right at the start where he said the emphasis that he puts on what man united

Speaker 7 when they are when the guy says united which was that that's authentic yeah they're kind of like other united fans they get annoyed about that don't they yeah but yeah i just you know i thought i thought ken loach's films charlie were were at least famed for their sort of realist dialogue but uh no not in that case but yeah you've got to cater for various audiences and some people need the kevin keegan rant context explained to them so uh yeah, I'll

Speaker 7 give that a generous six out of ten.

Speaker 7 Ali Darlow gets in touch next Dave in an attempt to solve the conundrum we were faced with last week about what would a Premier League table look like for a season where there were no managerial sackings.

Speaker 7 You know every club in its rightful place to that every fan base would be placated to a certain extent. So here's his rundown.
Liverpool to win the title. Arsenal second.

Speaker 7 Manchester City third but get to the Champions League semi-finals. Chelsea fourth.
Manchester United fifth and qualify for the Champions League. Tottenham sixth and qualify for the Europa.

Speaker 7 Newcastle seventh and qualify for the Europa. Bournemouth eighth but were fourth at Christmas.
Villa ninth but gets to the final of the Europa. Brighton 10th but gets to the FA Cup semi-finals.

Speaker 7 Forest 11th and gets the quarters of the Europa but go out to Lyon. Fulham 12th.
Brentford 13th. Everton 14th.
15th Palace. They win the Conference League.
West Ham 16th.

Speaker 7 and get to the Carabao Cup final. Wolves 17th, bottom at Christmas but survive, crucial.
18th Sunderland. They fall to relegation on the final day.

Speaker 7 Cheers echo around the stadium light, even in relegation. Bit weird.
Leeds 19th, Burnley 20th. It's close, isn't it? There's a lot of stuff in there that makes sense.

Speaker 7 And I posted about this on a similar thread on the Reddit page the other day.

Speaker 7 I think the most crucial thing for there to be no sackings in a Premier League season here is how that relegation battle unfolds. You need Burnley, Leeds, and Sunderland to know.

Speaker 7 You can't have anyone that's adrift too early.

Speaker 7 You need them to be in touch, but you can't really have them going on a run, because if they go on too much of a run, that means a big club will be sucked down, like we're seeing at the moment with Wolves.

Speaker 7 And I think Wolves bottom at Christmas. I think if Wolves are bottom at Christmas, I think they're pulling the trigger, aren't they, before the January window?

Speaker 7 You can't have Wolves bottom at Christmas in this hypothetical situation.

Speaker 7 I think you need one of West Hammer Wolves to be... muddling along.
The fans are a bit disgruntled, but they're just about with enough games here and there.

Speaker 7 But then they get sucked into the battle right at the end.

Speaker 7 West Hammer Wolves are the danger teams here, Charlie. So obviously, they are the real weak point of this whole scenario.

Speaker 7 They will pull the trigger pretty much at any point, and they're always essentially going to be underachieving, and there's no space for them further up the table. So that's it.

Speaker 2 Well, I mean, the eight teams being in Europe is helpful for this potentially. Yeah.
Like, it's a bit of a cheat in some ways, but that would. You could offset.

Speaker 2 So any team like Newcastle, you know, they could be lower potentially. Firstly, Eddie Howells aren't getting sacked.

Speaker 2 So if you're going, oh, not for for a while anyway but if they you know if they get to like the Champions League quarters which isn't totally ludicrous it's unlikely but or even last 16 because if they have to win a playoff then you're having like mad incredible nights at st james's where they win a champions league knockout tie i reckon they can sort of you can have them you can afford to have them in mid-table such a delicate balancing act this but i think this is about as close as we've ever got so far but yeah enjoyed that i've been unsure dave what to make of dan burns week last week because there was a surprising amount of awestruck discourse about his header against athletic bill Bowell.

Speaker 7 Yeah. A big long Reddit thread on our page about what kind of header it was.
I waded in with Guided. I think it's a Guided header.

Speaker 7 A lot of people said it was too powerful to be guided, but I think he used the power of the cross because he headed it back from whence it came, which is always useful. So I'm happy with Guided.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and

Speaker 7 because of the angle of it, the trajectory of the cross and the power of the cross, he didn't really need to put too much neck power into it. He just sort of

Speaker 2 threw it. He ran through the ball.

Speaker 7 And I mean, the most amazing thing about it, obviously, is the arc of the ball once he's headed it. It's pretty rare you see a curled header like that.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he hid it with the inside of his head, Charlie.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it is an extraordinary header. It's kind of hard to classify as to exactly what happens.

Speaker 7 I know I've seen one like this. Yeah, I was going to ask you that.

Speaker 2 Did you get a satisfactory answer to that? Because I do know what you mean. It doesn't, I have an image of a comparable one, but yeah, I can't think what that is.

Speaker 7 It came down to two, which I don't really think nailed it in my head. It was Steve Bruce's goal for Man United against Sheffield Wednesday that clinched Man United the title in 1993.

Speaker 2 I don't think so.

Speaker 7 And then there was also headed by Michael Balak against Chelsea, Man United at Stanford Bridge about 2010 or something like that. And

Speaker 7 it was a little bit closer range, but he came in from the same angle and it did follow a similar trajectory. But I don't think either of them are right, but I've got it in my head.

Speaker 7 It might even have been at the other end and mirrored, which really annoys me because it makes it even harder to find.

Speaker 7 But Dan Burns' week then got worse, though, Charlie, because he was sent off against Brentford and it was one of the most magnanimously accepted second yellow cards I've ever seen.

Speaker 7 Did you see the little nod he gave them everywhere? Yeah, fine. Still out of the way.

Speaker 2 Which is weird because I don't think he really makes much content. Is it? Because he gets lucky with the other one, so he's sort of like, yeah, fair cop, I probably should have gone earlier.

Speaker 2 That's fine. It's evened itself out.
But yeah, it is incredibly magnanimous.

Speaker 7 That could well be the logic. I mean, if anything, Dave, that's the classiest of touches.
You're just based to say, yeah, I should have gone for the first one. You saw it on my body language.

Speaker 7 You still didn't give the penalty and now I'm

Speaker 7 pretty much have to go. Yeah, and in both situations, after he's made an attempt to play the ball, both times he's done the old arms,

Speaker 7 both hands raised over his shoulders sort of thing.

Speaker 7 He looked guilty both times. But it was almost like he was waiting for the referee to get the yellow card out.
And it was like, are you going to send me off? Are you going to send me?

Speaker 7 Yeah, okay, yeah, fine.

Speaker 2 See you later.

Speaker 7 Speaking of big Dan Bees, the athletics Colin Miller alerted me to this.

Speaker 7 This is ex-Sunderland defender Mickey Gray on Talksport with Sean Custis and Henry Winter talking about Dan Ballard and making the absolute classic footballing era.

Speaker 15 And look, this is a late shout and it might be going a little bit over the top, but we haven't got too many centre-afts in our country.

Speaker 15 And he left it too late because I think his performances deserve an England call-up.

Speaker 7 Can we have two big Dans?

Speaker 2 Two Big Dans in the

Speaker 2 back four.

Speaker 7 Just the 32 caps for Northern Ireland there. I mean, it's great.
I mean, this happens a lot. Do you know what, Charlie?

Speaker 7 I'll be honest during Dan Ballard's recent surge to notoriety I did think to myself how old is he could be could he be in the England picture just so it happened to coincide with Northern Ireland being on TV I saw him and went okay definitely I'll remember that I won't make that mistake but yeah I mean it it's a classic one this this has been this mistake is this mistake has been made dozens of times over the years yeah I remember Harry Rednapp writing a telegraph column talking about Wes Morgan when Leicester were on the way to winning the league and could he you know why isn't he in which is frame less excusable than you shouldn't make this error anyway, but just saying it off the top of your head whilst you're on live radio or TV, like it can happen.

Speaker 7 Mickey Gray knows more about

Speaker 7 in a column. I mean, that's gone through, that's gone through some editing and some checks, surely.

Speaker 7 But, I mean, Dan Ballard, born in Stevenage, looking at his Wikipedia page, but his mother's Northern Irish.

Speaker 7 Maybe Mickey Gray's met him and he hasn't got a Northern Irish accent, so he thought that's probably it, isn't it?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 7 Maybe there should be a clause in the FIFA regulations about International Allegiance switching Charlie, which says, you know, if the general talk sport consensus is they don't know who you play international football for, you're allowed to switch.

Speaker 2 I mean, there's also because, like, obviously, this doesn't excuse it, but he is so the platonic ideal of a sort of tough English centre-back. Like, I can totally see why the mistakes were made.

Speaker 2 Obviously, you might then check it or whatever, but he is, it's like when we have, when we did, like, you know, players who should have played for this club but haven't, and some of them were international shouts.

Speaker 2 You know, I think there was one about, like, how is Pedro Porro not Portuguese? Like, he just gives off that vibe. There is something very like young, lionheart, centre-back English about Dan Ballard.

Speaker 7 There just is. Mickey Gray's Twitter account yesterday was a perfect snapshot of sort of ex-pro randomly midway through the day.
He retweeted himself from 2021, just linking to his Instagram account.

Speaker 7 And then that was followed up by an apology

Speaker 7 for the situation, for the Dan Ballard situation. Oh, no.
I didn't realize he'd addressed it and broken his silence about it.

Speaker 7 Oh shame all round. Okay.
The Under-17 World Cup is going on in the small but powerful state of Qatar at the moment. And

Speaker 7 as is Qatar's want with this sort of thing, Dave, all the games are taking place within close proximity to each other because it's easy. Easy to get around for the fans, for the players.

Speaker 7 But even more microscopic than the 2022 World Cup, they're all being played at the Aspire campus in Doha. And

Speaker 7 so I was looking at the Wikipedia page for the pictures. And they're all in like, there's one game on pitch three one game on pitch seven This is like a kids fiber side tournament.

Speaker 7 It's tin pots Hackney marshes at least give them a name.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I mean and that's the thing like in Doha in Qatar It's the sort of place where you wouldn't put it past them to sort of name all their pictures after world-famous stadiums like you do get at Bower League sometimes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Name them after Keezy.

Speaker 7 That would be class. Have you seen the footage? Have you seen any footage from this?

Speaker 7 I've seen the aerial shots of it all going on, yeah.

Speaker 7 During a match, if you're watching, I saw some of the England footage the other day, and you can sort of see some of the other games going on in the background. Shouldn't be allowed.

Speaker 7 And the bit I saw, England were playing in the top left-hand corner of the shot.

Speaker 7 You could see through to the other pitch, but the game hadn't started yet, and the two teams were lined up for the anthems next to each other, which just looked really strange. Can't be having this.

Speaker 7 I know it's under 17s, but Jesus, there's some standards that FIFA need to uphold.

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Speaker 7 Welcome back to Football Cliches. A reminder that you can sign up for Dreamland for just $5.99 a month.

Speaker 7 You'll get an ad-free listening of all of our episodes and two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show, plus other things as well. We're recording episode 11 this week.

Speaker 7 The series so far includes deep dives on match of the day, the history of football video game commentary, the perfect football season, the Champions League, and Monday night football.

Speaker 7 Go to dreamland.football clichés.com to sign up. Right, next up, we've got Jason Souter.

Speaker 7 He writes in and said that the camera during the Astonville Bournemouth game, Charlie, panned to Astonville's set piece coach, the fellow with the long hair, after Emmy Buendia scored a direct free kick.

Speaker 7 I'm not having it.

Speaker 7 Yeah,

Speaker 7 this is not involved in his remit, surely. I mean, I'm sure he has some guidance, but no, he can't take the credit for it, can he?

Speaker 2 I don't know. Yeah, probably not.

Speaker 2 I mean, we don't know the extent to which he's talked to the players about this is where, again, I don't know if this would be him or more of the analysts, but you know, this is where the goalkeeper likes to stand, this is where they like to position their wall, all of that kind of stuff.

Speaker 7 Yeah, Austin McPhee is the guy's name. Yeah, yeah, direct free kicks.
Come on. We don't need set-piece coaches for those, do we? Yeah, let's

Speaker 7 with the close-ups.

Speaker 7 The England World Cup news cycle moves on one notch, Dave, because, as Jack Pittbrook writes for The Athletic, England are looking into ways to tackle the heat in North America next summer.

Speaker 7 He interviewed Tuchel's assistant Anthony Barry, and apparently all the focus is on developing a physically intense style, but England's coaches know they will need a way of playing next summer that can work in intense heat and humidity.

Speaker 7 They have analysts studying the Club World Cup so they can establish what works in such conditions. Barry says it will be our job to build a heat-proof game model that can be successful out there.

Speaker 7 Good to have this addressed soon. We cannot have wilting next summer.
A heat-proof game model is

Speaker 2 just call that conserving energy.

Speaker 7 you do worry a bit as well if they're basing too much off the Club World Cup from last summer as well. How reliable is that data? I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 Different game. Yeah.

Speaker 7 But yes, good to know. I mean, what other issues can we get ahead of? Presume they've nailed the training camp already and whether it's entertaining enough or too entertaining.

Speaker 7 But yeah, good to have this one nailed straight away. Right, next one comes from Henry Collier.

Speaker 7 Here is Cambridge United manager Neil Harris reflecting on his side's 0-0 draw with Salford in League Two.

Speaker 20 We're just at disappointment. We just felt a couple of decisions went against us in the final third, which I thought any decent referee would have given.

Speaker 20 But that's the way the apple crumbles sometimes.

Speaker 7 Once again, I ask Dave, can we see how this might have happened? Yeah.

Speaker 7 The apple's not the crumbly part of the crumble, Neil.

Speaker 7 Maybe he dehydrates his apples and crumples them over the top of the soggy biscuit, Charlie. Isn't that an upside-down crumble? That will get him to the final of of Master Chef easy, Neil Harris.

Speaker 7 Next up, George Baker writes in, David says, I'm currently watching Eastleigh vs. Walsall on the BBC in the FA Cup.

Speaker 7 Very early on, the commentator, I think it's Mark Scott, makes reference to Aaron Presley and Daniel Carnew as the classic big man/slash little man partnership up front for Walsall.

Speaker 7 As a semi-regular spectator at the best scot, I can confirm that Presley is a mountain at 6'4. However, this comment didn't really seem right in respect to Carnew.

Speaker 7 Apparently, he's 5'11, taller than the average height of 5'9 for a UK male. As someone who is the same height as Daniel Carnew, I wouldn't be considering myself as a small man.

Speaker 7 Surely we can't be having this. I suggest only a striker below average height, Michael Owen, for example, could be considered your classic little man in a partnership.

Speaker 7 How strict should we be here, or is it just that they're performing the small man role? Yeah, I mean, I suppose the little man can be little relative to the big man, can't he?

Speaker 7 If the big man's especially big,

Speaker 2 then yes, you're right. Yeah,

Speaker 7 the average height man could perform the little man function. But I think it's style of play as well, isn't it?

Speaker 2 Like, like is is is he making the runs in behind is it flick-ons that sort of thing I also do think football just is slightly different from the average height of a UK male because I think footballers tend to be I would say on average I don't have the data to back me up here but I'm sure footballers are on average taller than you know that it is slightly different

Speaker 2 so like you know if you're five foot ten as a footballer I think that would feel fairly short whereas it would whereas it wouldn't or at least technically shouldn't fullbacks pretty much aren't they Dave yeah I mean do you have this thing, Charlie?

Speaker 7 You must have met, you know, or been in the presence of a fair share of footballers over the years. Sometimes, no, no, not such a height thing, maybe, but sometimes they're smaller than you think.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, they're often so lithe, like their build is like there's just nothing on them. That blows my mind

Speaker 7 how skinny they are, I have to say. But yeah, that's how you get through 60 games a season, I guess.
But five-inch difference here, Dave.

Speaker 7 That's probably the low end of the tolerance limit for the big man-smallman allowance. Yeah.
Yeah. Five foot eleven is pushing it, but you've definitely got to be under six foot to be the small man.

Speaker 7 But But I will allow Charlie some thematic criteria here. If they are performing, you know, if one's latching onto flick-ons, then they are by default the small man in the partnership.

Speaker 2 I mean, according to Wikipedia, Shane Long is 5'11. And I would consider him perfect for a kind of small man in a big man, small man partnership.

Speaker 2 He's nippy, he's scrappy, he'll run in behind all day, he'll latch onto things. So yeah, I think maybe it is okay to be that kind of thing.

Speaker 7 Could you have a partnership where you have somebody who's 5'11, say, or less than 6' and he's actually really good in the air because they've got a great leap? So Heider Helgerson, let's say.

Speaker 7 Maybe he was six foot, but he said he wasn't tall, but he was superb in the air. And then playing with somebody like Harland, who's massive but really quick and loves running into space,

Speaker 2 latching onto his flicker.

Speaker 7 That would be so good to see. Commentators wouldn't know what to do.
More within the realms of actual realism, Charlie. How about this?

Speaker 7 Would you consider Chris Sutton and Alan Shearer as a big man, small man partnership?

Speaker 2 No. No, I wouldn't.

Speaker 7 No. I mean, Shearer wasn't latching on to flick-ons.

Speaker 7 That was kind of their defined roles, and it's Sutton more of the target man, Shearer, more of the finisher. Only three inches between them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but they were more all rat. Like, they could both do the other stuff better, I think, than your classic little and large.
Fair enough. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 7 So, ideally, Dave, what heights are we looking for? 5'8 and 6'3? Something like that? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you want it to be obvious, don't you?

Speaker 7 Yeah, but anyway, speaking of big men, it's time for Keys and Gray Corner.

Speaker 7 Let's loosen up first with this from Dan Lewis. Some cracks beginning to show in Keys and Gray's decades-old chemistry.

Speaker 21 I said to you last week that exact thing, Keesey. Is it because he's arrived at Torton?

Speaker 7 How can you be making that mistake now? This is insane. What a thing to call him up on.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's very weird.

Speaker 7 Who's lost their mind more there, Charlie?

Speaker 2 Keesey's head's gotten more there.

Speaker 2 Absolutely mad.

Speaker 7 It was a harsh S in Keese's defence, but other than that, a strange thing to finally pick up on 30 years into their working relationship. Yeah, very odd.

Speaker 7 But really, only one thing that we can talk about on Keys and Grey Corner today: it is the Piers Morgan interview with Cristiano Ronaldo, which he re-released on YouTube shortly afterwards with added reaction from a panel of esteemed guests featuring Fabrizio Romano, Mark Goldbridge, ex-Real Madrid president Ramon Calderon, social media influencer Emily Austin, who was only there to talk about how hot Cristiano Ronaldo is, and superbly Carol Prince, HMRC of football, was on there at the tail end to dissect some of Ronaldo's claims.

Speaker 7 But on the main panel, it was Richard Keyes, Henry Winter, Guillem Balaguer.

Speaker 7 What? An incredible panel to accompany Piers Morgan. So good that these people are coexisting in any context.
Let's hear Piers Morgan setting the scene with his panel.

Speaker 10 I've assembled a star panel of sporting luminaries to give me their verdict, and we'll hear from some special guests along the way.

Speaker 10 Well, joining me now is the Bain Sports anchor Richard Keyes, the Sports Illustrated correspondent, Henry Winter, and the journalist and biographer to both Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo, Guillaume Balagier.

Speaker 10 Well, welcome to all of you.

Speaker 7 I mean, I'd never heard Bay In pronounce Bay In before, but I'm all for it. But straight off the bat, Charlie, weird to hear Piers Morgan talking directly to Richard Keyes.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm really fascinated by how and why this came that Keesey was art. Like, is Piers Morgan kind of oblivious to Keese's state within football media more generally, or does he just not care?

Speaker 2 And he's kind of like, yeah, he's my, you know, he's my mate, and I want to get him on. The latter.

Speaker 7 I just can't, I can't imagine him you know Keesy being it's quite strange like it's quite incongruous for him to be on this it is a little bit and he is the arguably the most tenuous of the three to have on in this panel Dave but at the same time there's not a great deal of texture in this panel is there really I mean I'm not saying they're all the same but I mean we could have got a bit more variety well I don't know I mean some of the other names there that you've got yeah Colbridge and Piers Prince but I think Keesy I'm I think he's popped up on Piers Morgan stuff before they definitely know each other they will have they will their paths will have crossed in their pomp in the 90s for sure.

Speaker 7 And Piers Morgan certainly isn't going to care, even if he is. I mean, I'm sure he's across everything that happened, and he isn't going to care about any of that stuff.
Yeah, that's true. Right.

Speaker 7 Let's focus purely on Kesey for this one, though. Here is Kesey on Cristiano Ronaldo's claims to greatness.

Speaker 10 And Ronaldo will go there with Portugal. How important is it, do you think, to Ronaldo's legacy, given that Messi has won a World Cup?

Speaker 10 Does it matter whether Cristiano wins one or not?

Speaker 16 Can I just say, first of all, Piers, that I thought he was self-effacing,

Speaker 16 occasionally funny, very honest,

Speaker 16 a little ego-driven, but then that's all right, because we all are. And he certainly threw some big names around.

Speaker 16 And I'm talking about the interviewer, not Cristiano.

Speaker 16 I thoroughly enjoyed the interview. Really, I don't agree with Henry.
I don't think he's got to win the, he won't win the World Cup. Let's get that straight.

Speaker 16 Portugal are not going to win the World Cup. And I don't think he has to win the World Cup to be considered one of the greats.
He is without question now.

Speaker 16 I do agree with Henry that he is one of the top five.

Speaker 16 But in my five, you see, I've got a guy called George Best who played in a very different era, never went to a World Cup,

Speaker 16 would never ever have dreamt about going with the country that he represented.

Speaker 16 Cristiano has done everything he needs to.

Speaker 7 So So, some good entry-level Keesy here, Charlie, chucking in a name of his own to ruffle a few feathers, just a certain Mr. George Bess.
George Bess.

Speaker 2 No one really bites, though, do they? They just kind of move on from it quite quickly.

Speaker 7 I mean, I always feel awkward for anybody, Dave, who tries to chuck in some humour on what is essentially a Zoom-based discussion, because you know

Speaker 7 you've got to nail the timing, or it's never going to go down well. Yeah, there is a slight delay there because Keesy's laughing at Piers laughing at the joke.
And yeah.

Speaker 2 It also doesn't quite work if I'm being a pedant, because he has asked specifically about Cristiano Ronaldo and he says he, if he wanted to reframe that joke, he could say something like, well, look, I think the man that we all came to watch was da da da da da, go it that way.

Speaker 2 But it doesn't quite work, Keesy.

Speaker 7 Could have workshopped it a bit better. Here is Keesy now on the old wet Wednesday night in Stoke debate.

Speaker 10 What do you think the core problem is at United?

Speaker 16 Just to answer the question that we left hanging, Piers, for me at Stoke on a wet Wednesday against the Tony Poolist team, team, particularly Cristiano, all day long.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I agree. I agree.

Speaker 16 Absolutely.

Speaker 16 As for Manchester United.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 7 this is the first time in this, Dave, where Keesy reiterates that he's nailed his colours to the Ronaldo mast.

Speaker 7 He's a staunch Ronaldo man in this debate, isn't he? And always has been.

Speaker 2 Power. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Power.

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's quite weird watching them, and Piers Morgan in particular, watching them talk about this stuff with the sort of same seriousness that he would talk about big political stories

Speaker 7 and whatever it might be.

Speaker 7 There's no reason for them to be talking about this other than the fact that he got the interview with Cristiano Ronaldo or whatever, but there's this strange relationship, weird bromance that they've got,

Speaker 7 him and Ronaldo. The whole thing's a bit weird.

Speaker 7 Piers Morgan's got into a strange chapter of his existence, actually, Charlie, because he has been sort of slightly over-mythologised as a kind of operator.

Speaker 7 He's really only got one gear, which is why he can treat this topic like any other.

Speaker 7 He basically, it's that kind of mild, subtle, wind-up merchant tone, but with the kind of slightly wide eyes of, I can't believe I've got this much attention at the same time.

Speaker 7 It's basically like deluxe Gary Cotterell. So in this sense, he lends this topic its legitimacy somehow, but it's just great to see the others engaging with it.
Well, two things.

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess one thing, one, just...

Speaker 2 answering the doing a bit of a keys but answering the previous question as to why a keysy was on i guess the fact that he is so pro-Ronaldo probably appealed to Piers because he was like, well, you know, he's very much on my side.

Speaker 2 But yeah, I mean, I have to say, like, watching, I could only stomach not that much of it, but the actual interview, it's kind of incredible.

Speaker 2 Like, I know if you haven't watched it, like, you'll be imagining it's obsequious and sycophantic and kind of horrendous. Like, it's unbelievable how much it is of those things.

Speaker 2 Like, he's basically just asking him, like, how much money you have. Is it amazing to have that much money? Like, wow, you have so much.
How many cars do you have? How many planes do you have?

Speaker 2 Like, it's it's it's kind of amazing that he's I don't know, he's obviously maybe he's lost credibility before, but he's obviously just so in awe of Cristiano Ronaldo that he's willing to make himself look like servile, basically, just so he can talk to this man who he's clearly like in awe of.

Speaker 7 He has no shame with this sort of stuff. That that much is very much obvious.

Speaker 7 Um, on the wet Wednesday night in Stoke thing, Dave, Piers Morgan presents this dilemma to Henry Winter about who would you trust to score for you, a goal for you, to save your life on a wet Wednesday night in Stoke?

Speaker 7 Cristiano Ronaldo or Leonor Messi so Henry Winter starts to start answering this question and then pivots so elegantly to shoehorning something in about Lou Macari's great community work in Stoke-on-Trent and then gets back to the question like it's the absolute Henry Winter by numbers classy touch it's just of course he's going to mention that everyone's doing their job perfectly here

Speaker 7 to save your a goal a goal to save your life on a wet Wednesday night in Stoke as well yeah what what What a miserable existence that's going to be. What or what predicament it is exactly?

Speaker 7 Oh, I should have gone with Messi. Fuck.
Turns out he wasn't skillful enough to jibble around those defenders. Fucking hell.

Speaker 7 But

Speaker 7 the conversation turns to the huge debate, and this is where they bring in social media influencer Emily Austin, about who's hotter, Cristiano Ronaldo or David Beckham. Keys, are you here?

Speaker 10 Richard Keys, you're obviously a fine-looking specimen of a man.

Speaker 10 Do you agree with Ronaldo? Is he basically, in terms of full package, the hottest footballer that's ever walked the earth?

Speaker 16 My judgment is probably based on

Speaker 16 David's such a charming individual. I mean, he's a lovely, lovely guy.

Speaker 16 Cristiano, I think it's come across during the period of time we've all been together, I'm an enormous fan.

Speaker 16 I would have to go,

Speaker 16 I think he's right, Cristiano.

Speaker 16 I mean, I look at the other guys on here. I mean, Henry Winter,

Speaker 16 Henry Cristiano, David Beckham,

Speaker 16 tight, Guillem Balagay.

Speaker 2 You know, I think we're all of the same opinion.

Speaker 10 You know, Henry, Henry, Henry's got...

Speaker 7 God, he was struggling there, Dave.

Speaker 7 To be fair to Keesy there, even he is

Speaker 7 so taken by how tedious this question is that he thinks, what can I do to try and make it interesting and get move it on into a different area I mean it's ridiculous

Speaker 2 what are we what are we doing here the look on winter's face yeah winter is not enjoying that is he fucking hell

Speaker 7 I I thought Charlie in the grand landscape of masculinity these days I thought we were in a kind of post-modern phase of this where you know it's perfectly acceptable to discuss about which fellow male is the hottest in the world but Keesy seems to be really struggling with this on that level I think he says you can't ask me to to answer something like that David's such a good mate

Speaker 2 He's got skin in the game, so to speak.

Speaker 7 I would never have been sure if he was pro-Beckham or not, David, actually.

Speaker 7 But Beckham's done stuff for Qatar, though, hasn't he? Yeah,

Speaker 7 that's the big tick in Keys' book. But this is the crowning moment for me.
Here is Richard Keyes on his fears for Ronaldo post-retirement.

Speaker 10 Danny, I keep hearing you talk about Donald Trump as being a unique character. She said, do you think there's such a thing as being too unique?

Speaker 10 Richard Keyes, you've maintained a stony face. Yeah, well, Richard, you've maintained a stony face since the Trump word was mentioned.

Speaker 10 You're not a massive fan of the President of the United States. So what did you make of what Cristiano said about him?

Speaker 16 I agree with Cristiano. I think Trump is more infamous.
He will be forgotten far more quickly.

Speaker 16 I think we will be talking about Cristiano as football people and sports fans for a long, long time to come. Yeah, just one thing on the interview, Piers, I did want to mention.

Speaker 16 And by the way, terrific, to be serious. It really was.

Speaker 16 It was, if we had firesides in this part of the world, it's the sort of thing I'd expect to see two guys just sat in front of a fire, relaxed in each other's company, clearly enjoying each other's company.

Speaker 16 It's a really, really good watch. But there was just a moment, and I think the most illuminating part of it for me was when he said, do you know, I don't want to be famous.
And I get that.

Speaker 16 I really do understand that because there's an enormous price to pay. He talks about his cars, 41 cars, 42 cars.
He never drives his cars. He can't drive his cars.
He can't shop and get bread.

Speaker 16 And it reminds me of a way in what happened to Diana.

Speaker 2 Oh, my God.

Speaker 7 We should have done a little sweepstake on who he was going to mention there.

Speaker 7 I thought for a moment, Charlie, that it was going to be a story about him, about how press intrusion on his life had made his life completely intolerable and it was out of his control.

Speaker 7 But then in came Lady Die. Wow.

Speaker 7 But not even called Lady Die, Die, just Diana.

Speaker 2 Diana. I mean.

Speaker 2 Spencer.

Speaker 7 He's definitely got a Diana mug from the wedding, 82.

Speaker 2 He might have been there covering it for local television or something.

Speaker 7 If you look at some of the blokes that Diana was linked with post-Charles. Will Carling.
Like Will Carling, the Heart Doctor, Dodie himself. Keese's sort of in the mix with him, isn't he, really?

Speaker 7 Imagine.

Speaker 2 I mean, Will Carling, yeah, famously her suit as well. Yeah,

Speaker 2 Keesy.

Speaker 7 Not a world away from Peak Keesy, actually. Yeah, same sort of avuncular face could handle a red wine or two, definitely.

Speaker 7 Just an astonishing broadcast. And the fact that they chucked in your Goldbridges, your Romanos in there, it's just sensational.

Speaker 7 Yeah, more of this, please.

Speaker 7 This was a gift from the clichés gods, wasn't it, Dave? Yeah, wow. On that note, thanks to you, Charlie Eccleshare.
Thank you. Thanks to you, Dave Walker.
Thank you. Thanks to everyone for listening.

Speaker 7 We'll be back on Thursday. See you then.

Speaker 3 This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

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