On toast in his pocket, pulling up trees & The Number-and-a-Half XI

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Speaker 5 Absolutely incredible! He launched himself six feet into the crowd and Kung Fu kicked a supporter who was eye without a shadow of a doubt getting him lip. Oh, I say!

Speaker 5 It's amazing! He does it tame and tame and tame again.

Speaker 3 Break up the music! Charge a glass!

Speaker 3 This nation is going to dance all night!

Speaker 3 A simply great coining of a tidy football phrase. Dua Leaper's testing of the football hipster threshold.
A long overdue subversion of the two goalkeepers wouldn't have saved that device.

Speaker 3 Connor Bradley's triple lock on Vinicius Jr., an early contender for semi-accidental footballing portmanteau of the season, the hero to zero criteria, the celebrity TV equivalent of inevitably signing for West Ham at some point in your career, English football stadiums that could be someone's name, and Keys and Grey on AI.

Speaker 3 Brought to your ears by Goal Hanger Podcasts. This is Football Clichés.

Speaker 3 Hello everyone and welcome to Football Cliches. I'm Adam Hurry.
This is the midweek adjudication panel. Joining me first of all is Charlie Eccleshare.
What are you doing?

Speaker 7 I'm at the uh, I'm recording at the National Tennis Centre ahead of a day playing paddle and talking about paddle.

Speaker 7 Don't know if our listeners have played. I've only played a few times, but yeah, the few times I've played, I've very much enjoyed.

Speaker 3 National Tennis Centre, your spiritual home, perhaps. Alongside you is David Walker.
How are you doing? I'm very good. How are you? Excellent.
Yeah, I'm alright, actually.

Speaker 3 Bit of correspondence, first of all. Anonymous email saying I'm the producer of Komode and Mayo's Take.
Listen.

Speaker 3 Fair play, I've been caught trying to jazz up our ad reads by smuggling cliches from my favourite podcast in and around the show amid messages from my boss and Mayo himself saying they'd found me out.

Speaker 3 It wasn't a marketing strategy, but it was generous of you to attribute that level of psychology to me. So there we are.

Speaker 3 I mean, the most plausible explanation of all, Charlie, turned out to be the correct one.

Speaker 7 Yep, it made sense. Nice to hear.

Speaker 3 It is nice to hear. People risking their jobs for us, Dave, is great to hear.

Speaker 8 Will it be one and done, or will he continue to try and perhaps similar to the spate of clichés that we had from Excalibur when he was

Speaker 8 smuggling them into wrestling commentary? You know,

Speaker 8 you can keep going, but you just got to try and make it a bit more subtle.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there is a line. There's definitely a line.
Slightly late to this one, Dave.

Speaker 3 You'll probably have seen by now Atletico Ottawa's Canadian Premier League Final Triumph in the Snow, which featured an incredible bicycle kick from Mexican midfielder David Rodriguez, which was instantly dubbed the icicle kick.

Speaker 3 Which, you know, if you think of the blanket coverage of football now and the relentless content machine, icicle kick is just a touch of genius. Like, it's quite simple.

Speaker 3 It's incredibly simple, but it's brilliant. Like, well done, everybody.

Speaker 3 I'd love to know who came up with that first. Who wants to say that praise first?

Speaker 8 Yeah, fair play to the person who got in there first. It was like seeing a FIFA or Pro Evo or computer game with all the extreme settings turned up, wasn't it?

Speaker 7 Yeah, it was always a great novelty early on playing with Snow. And then you're like, actually, this is quite shit.
I can't really see you very well.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's not necessarily a hindrance to playing Snow. I feel like it doesn't actually I mean you know as long as it's safe which I'm sure it is it's fun if anything.

Speaker 7 Do you remember the famous Chelsea Tromso game that was played in like a Blizzard with an orange ball? That was great fun. Channel 5 probably Jonathan Pierce on comms.

Speaker 3 Very much so. It was brilliant.
I did try and find out who coined icicle kick first Dave. I went back through Twitter.
chronologically to find out who tweeted that phrase first.

Speaker 3 And you get to that lovely point just before the game happened where it's just people who happen to be tweeting that phrase.

Speaker 3 And there's a video of a a bloke kicking ice off his car and just said icicle kick. I thought, little did he know.
Okay.

Speaker 3 And then it's sad to report that the first instance of icicle kick in the context of Athletic Ottawa's goal was by some grubby betting account, which I'm really annoyed by.

Speaker 3 It wasn't just a... a bloke, but maybe the algorithm's lying to me.

Speaker 7 I mean, the first time it was uttered may have been just by people watching, you know, it's possible that people watching it said it at the time, quickly made that connection, even if they didn't go online with it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, just a lovely thing, and I'm glad it exists. Speaking of things I'm glad exist, the Football Clichés podcast has been nominated once again for Podcast of the Year at the FSA Awards.

Speaker 3 We want your vote, but it isn't just a vote for clichés. It's a vote for Nick Miller's life-affirming chuckle.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for us forcing Match of the Day to change their title sequence because it had some ITV commentary in by accident.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for us correctly guessing Zhao Havalange as the answer to the most Jonathan Wilson quiz question imaginable. It's a vote for Charlie Eccleshaire's generic punditry.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for Richard Keyes accidentally quote-tweeting or tribute video to Hulk Hogan with his thoughts on Declan Rice's sending off against Brighton and somehow still not deleting it.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for working out which goal is being commentated on in the Gazette of Football Italia theme tune. It's a vote for a VPN making your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for people DMing me at 1am asking for a level 5 on Happy Hunting Grounds. It's a vote for literally Dave.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for that genuinely top bloke from Essex whose name incredibly is Rudy Voller. It's a vote for Ribblesdale Rovers over Clapham Chiefs.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for David Beckham explaining the Champions League final to an insanely interested Tom Cruise. It's a vote for listener Michael Cox.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for us laughing at the idea of a player called Vivaldo and then Watford signing a player called Vivaldo.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for Keesy writing in his blog that Rangers might as well have hired Russell Grant. It's a vote for ironically describing Jose Mourinho as box office.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for working out who England's 25th choice right back is. It's a vote for still not realising where the name Mezzert Harlan Dix comes from.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for Scottish club physios writing in to confess they help their teams time wasting.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for Jonathan Pierce's little stutter in his commentary in the theme tune that we thought about editing out but decided not to.

Speaker 3 It's a vote for all the tiny things in football that nobody else has the time or inclination to care about and we want that vote. Please thank you.
Vote.football clichés.com. Come on.

Speaker 3 Do it.

Speaker 8 Come on.

Speaker 3 We're going in. We're going full.
I don't. Max Rushton's semi-ironic campaigning is not good enough.
We're going in.

Speaker 7 Full.

Speaker 7 Are you going to do that every episode from here? From between now until the voting.

Speaker 3 I'll rewrite it. I'll do that.

Speaker 3 I'll do a new one each time. Maybe.
Right, time for the adjudication panel. Let's start with this.

Speaker 3 The sun, Charlie, says Dua Lipa turns football hipster as she's seen in Argentina kit at La Bombanera.

Speaker 3 I realise, you know, in the prep for this, that football hipster is potentially a relative concept. You know, everyone's football hipster could be different.

Speaker 3 In the grand scheme of things, does this make her a football hipster? I mean, being in an Argentina kit, no. Being at La Bombanera, potentially.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I was going to say, the Bombanera a bit more so. The Argentina kit less so, because that's going more mainstream than the game you're watching.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 7 So, um, yeah,

Speaker 8 bits of both.

Speaker 7 Was she at a game?

Speaker 8 Was she just on the stadium tour? Was she doing a concert at La Bombanera?

Speaker 3 Why was she there? I don't know, actually. The thumbnail of the picture suggests she is looking on at something, but I don't know what for.

Speaker 3 But if we assume that, you know in the in the grand landscape of football hipsterdom that's probably just about acceptable Dave what is your threshold for football hipster what would you consider given how much you consume football and you live and breathe it and potentially work it what what would your benchmark be for a football hipster or at what point would you go oh you're a football hipster aren't you I think if Mundial or these football times would put that shirt or player on the front cover and somebody's wearing that shirt, I think that's like a good benchmark for football hipsterdom.

Speaker 8 If she had a River Plate or Boca shirt on or something, yeah, then that's like bang in.

Speaker 3 Boca's more football hipster than River Plate, I think, Charlie. But what's your threshold here?

Speaker 7 I don't know. I mean, so this was Boca River, I assume anyway, because they played on the weekend and the Bombonera.

Speaker 8 Is that a political choice on her behalf then? She doesn't want to go down either side.

Speaker 7 Exactly, yeah. Like the Republicans buy sneakers too.
But Boca fans listen to Jua Lipa too.

Speaker 7 I think if you're watching this game, even if you're a UK-based person and you were watching the Super Classico over the weekend, I think that does put you in the Football Hipster category.

Speaker 7 So I think by sort of, I mean, obviously it's different because she's there. I don't imagine she's gone specially to go and watch this game.
Maybe. Maybe.

Speaker 7 Maybe she just really, really loves the Super Classico.

Speaker 8 She turns up on stage in a pennerole shirt or something in a few weeks' time.

Speaker 3 Great shout. But I never thought Charlie Ekoshare and Neil Custis would find common ground, but there it is.

Speaker 3 Moving on, this came from Emil Patrick.

Speaker 3 And what a week it has been for preston goalkeeper daniel everson at the weekend dave you'll remember him giving a comical goal away against millwall in what was described as an early christmas present and we decided that was far too early but a few days earlier he watched teammate thieri small score a screamer against swansea here is preston captain ben whiteman speaking about that goal boys to be fair is it and i cannot believe it's gone in the top corner like that it was unbelievable yeah fair play to him i don't think dan would have saved that would it no i think he just put two dans and he might have saved it it, but not one Dano.

Speaker 3 This is a

Speaker 3 great little evolution of this concept. Finally, we have someone admitting that two goalkeepers would have saved a shot, but it is complicated by the fact he's talking about his own goalkeeper.

Speaker 3 So there's bias there, but at least it's good to know that realism is playing a part.

Speaker 8 Yeah, yeah. I've watched him every day in training, and I know if there was two of him, he would have saved it.

Speaker 3 This is great. That's amazing.

Speaker 7 I've never seen anyone engage in that. It's a complete...
Even two of them were like, yeah, good on him. For actually taking it seriously.
I think two might might have done, though, yeah.

Speaker 3 To clarify that one of them wouldn't have saved it is brilliant. Just to be clear, it was a really good goal.

Speaker 3 Next up, this came from Aeon Anwar. Here is YouTube tacticsman James Alcott's analysis of the battle between Liverpool's Connor Bradley and Vinicius Jr.

Speaker 3 of Real Madrid in the Champions League last week. But instead, it was just an out-and-out battle between these two.
And Vinicius Jr. and Bradley.
Bradley had him on absolute toast.

Speaker 3 He was on toast in his pocket.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 I was prepared to have a big debate, Dave, here, about whether a defender can have an opposing player on toast. But then he introduced the toast in the pocket thing.

Speaker 3 And I actually really love the combination. Toasty pockets.

Speaker 8 You don't want toast in your pocket. Buttery pockets.

Speaker 7 Crumbs everywhere.

Speaker 3 If it was jam, that's game over. Those trousers are not coming back from that.

Speaker 3 But yeah, toasting on toast in your pocket, Charlie, is about as comprehensive a handling of an opponent as you could possibly imagine.

Speaker 7 It's nice to see the combo, you know, even for a tacticsman, you know, relying not just on the data and the analytics, but just, you know, old-fashioned eye tests.

Speaker 3 It was actually a triple threat, Dave, because what I forgot to include in the clip was that James Orcott said that not only did Connor Bradley have Vinicius Jr.

Speaker 3 on toast and in his pocket, but he had his number, which I think is, I think is really good, because I think it not only suggests that he handled him in that game, but it suggests in future games, he's going to be able to handle him as well.

Speaker 3 You know, like Ashley Cole versus Cristiano Ronaldo. He's got his number.
He's worked him out.

Speaker 8 I've got your number, son. I think...

Speaker 8 we must have touched on this at some point in the past, but can a fullback have

Speaker 8 a winger on toast?

Speaker 3 Isn't it?

Speaker 8 The winger can have the fullback on toast.

Speaker 3 That's quite right. Yeah.

Speaker 8 So the pocket, yeah. Fullback can have the winger firmly in your pocket, but on toast, it's more of a going the other way thing, I think.

Speaker 3 Yeah, the pocket definitely smooths things over. But yeah, Charlie, the concept of being on toast is that, you know,

Speaker 3 you've essentially been

Speaker 3 kind of destroyed in a way.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and it can't go the other way because,

Speaker 3 unless, of course, you know, Connor Bradley made him go the other way and start defending, of course. So, who knows? Maybe it was that.
Next up, this is from Tierney's tweets.

Speaker 3 And I'm not sure on the emphasis, exact emphasis on this one because I haven't got the clip.

Speaker 3 But he says, On Sky Sports multi-view on Sunday, the commentator just described Igor Thiago's audacious half-volley attempt for Brentford against Newcastle as spectaculative.

Speaker 3 A combo of speculative and spectacular. And to be honest, it felt right.
So, Dave, it's either spectaculative or spectac, spectac, spectaculative,

Speaker 3 spectaculative. I hope it's the first one.

Speaker 8 Oh, yeah, I was going to say, hopefully, the former.

Speaker 8 Yeah, nice. I like it.
The language of football, always evolving.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, of all, I mean, I don't know if this is an accidental portmanteau, Charlie, but what kind of effort?

Speaker 3 Because again, I haven't seen the shot itself, but you know, generically, what kind of shot, what kind of effort on goal would you describe as spectaculative?

Speaker 7 So this is, so he's described, this is an audacious half-volley, isn't it?

Speaker 7 So

Speaker 7 I mean, slightly different, but kind of like trying to catch a keeper off their line, not in a totally mad way, but you're around the halfway line. And it's spectacular because it goes quite close.

Speaker 7 There's a brief moment where the keeper and everyone thinks, oh my God, fuck, this might actually go in.

Speaker 8 Eckland Rice the other day.

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly. That's a really good example.

Speaker 7 But it's also largely speculative because the chance of it going in are minimal. And in that instance, he was kind of just kicking the ball away, wasn't he?

Speaker 3 You know, whilst having in mind, Dave, you can't describe a goal as speculative because it went in.

Speaker 3 But assuming that it hadn't gone in for a moment, Naeem's goal for Zaragoza from the halfway line against Arsenal in the Cup Winners' Cup final in 1995 has all the hallmarks was spectaculative because it was a real hit and hope.

Speaker 3 But it was incredibly spectacular. More so than just an attempt to catch the kid off the line from the halfway line,

Speaker 3 just lofting it.

Speaker 8 Yeah, because there was a real lack of finesse to that attempt, but it ended up going in.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
Spectaculative. I mean, this is it.
So I think it was Andy Bishop on...

Speaker 3 uh multi-view commentary duty and what a job that is by the way him and lee hendry having to do four games at once and it's it's effortless, it's really good, but no one will ever remember it because it never gets sort of recorded for posterity.

Speaker 3 But I just good gig.

Speaker 7 You're gonna get you're gonna get portmanteaus, you're gonna get improv, you're gonna get the boundaries being pushed when you're doing so many things.

Speaker 7 Just on that naeem god as well, as a kid, I remember finding it in well, in just like a classic, we've talked about this like inaccurate chance.

Speaker 7 I always found it irritating, like naeem from the halfway line.

Speaker 3 Really wasn't,

Speaker 3 really wasn't from the halfway line.

Speaker 3 We're inside the half, isn't it?

Speaker 7 To be yeah, and I think you know, my eight-year-old self-wasn't aware aware of kind of artistic license.

Speaker 3 I should say this is not from the half-way line.

Speaker 8 I am from the...

Speaker 3 From about 42 yards.

Speaker 3 I've had a lengthy debate, Dave, on Twitter a while ago about what constitutes from the halfway line. And I said, look, there's a degree of tolerance.
I reckon you can have 10 yards either side.

Speaker 3 Centre circle. Yeah,

Speaker 3 essentially, yeah, that's what it's for. Get on the centre circle.
It should be a line all the way down the pitch for me. Right, next up, a couple of cracking absolutings for you.

Speaker 3 This one came from Matt. Here's Simon Thomas on soccer Saturday doing his formalities.

Speaker 10 The first place to watch all the goals from the Premier League this afternoon is on the Sky Sports app. You can download it for absolute free.
Just go to the

Speaker 10 Apple to Google Play.

Speaker 3 That's a really good sell, actually. Absolute free.
Absolutely. Absolutely free.
Free.

Speaker 3 That's a real, really rams it home there. Next one, this came from James Bingham.
Here's Paul Merson recently talking about Manchester United's Premier League prospects.

Speaker 11 We're going to have a case for a few of them to get in a right few. So I think if they can get top five, I think the manager's pulled up absolute trees.

Speaker 3 That is so good.

Speaker 3 Once again, nothing cannot be enhanced if you do it right, Dave. Pulling up absolute trees.

Speaker 8 Yeah, and Merce is just the master of this stuff as well, isn't he? Yeah, he's pulling up absolute trees.

Speaker 3 Trees. Come what absolute may.

Speaker 3 On this note, got a message from Fred Gruff, Charlie, about the phrase of pulling up trees.

Speaker 3 And he asks, is this only used to compare a player's performance after changing a position/slash team slash league slash division?

Speaker 3 For example, Harry Kane has been really pulling up trees since moving to Bayern versus, you know, Jaden Sancho has hardly been pulling up trees since moving to the Premier League.

Speaker 3 I quite like it for this. I think this is definitely the context in which it's used.

Speaker 7 Yes, but I think it is way more the latter. I think of it as one of those you rarely hear a positive that a player has been pulling up trees.

Speaker 7 Obviously, the Mercen exam that's why why the Mercene example is also unusual because, yeah, I think that Sancho Simons Vert's example is absolutely text. Well, he's hardly been pulling up trees.

Speaker 7 So, yeah, it's way more of a negative than an actually doing the pulling up of the trees.

Speaker 3 Okay, I agree with that. Dave, next question from Fred Gruff is that, is this used to describe players rather than teams? I think it's definitely an individual thing.

Speaker 3 I mean, a whole team could probably pull up a tree, actually. If you get the whole squad involved, 25 people involved.
It's like the Egyptians building the pyramids. You'd get it done.

Speaker 8 Yeah, Nightingale Forest have hardly been pulling up any trees this season, have they?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 8 I mean, the ideal club to pull up trees. But where does it come from, that expression? Who would be pulling up these trees?

Speaker 8 Who's pulling up trees?

Speaker 3 Deforester, mythical figure who pulled up trees

Speaker 3 to, I don't know, to build a bridge to cross a river? Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 3 Final question from Fred Gruff, Charlie, is it seems to describe a run of form or lack of, as we've decided, rather than a single performance in a game. Yeah.
I think that's right, isn't it?

Speaker 3 Pulling up trees is a continuous idea. It's like he's been tearing it up in the era divisi.
It's the same concept, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah, it's basically like just another way of describing that someone's been pretty underwhelming.

Speaker 7 And I think often we'll come at the end of you're listing all the players that have let the side down. So Liverpool would be, you know, that would be a good example.

Speaker 7 Although Vertz is maybe too kind of high-profile, right? But yeah, it's more just like, you know, well, look, player X hasn't done much. Player Y's, you know, we've already seen him.

Speaker 7 And player Z's hardly been pulling up trees since his move from Dortmund. So yeah, I think that's kind of textbook.

Speaker 8 And I think there's a hint there in your tone, Charlie, that's bang on, that it's not necessarily about a player having an absolute nightmare time of it.

Speaker 3 No, no.

Speaker 8 It's just, you know, they're playing, you know, but they're just not really

Speaker 3 a price tag, basically. What's the tree pulling up threshold for you, Dave? Like, I mean, let's take

Speaker 3 Florian Viertz, then. Maybe that's quite a high threshold.
At what point could he start pulling up trees for Liverpool? He'd have to start really getting the goal contributions in, wouldn't he?

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 It's goal involvements for him, surely. Yeah.
Assists

Speaker 8 even just

Speaker 8 making significant impacts in big games at the moment. I mean, he is a good example of someone, like you say, Charlie.

Speaker 8 He's just too high-profile and playing too ineffectively to even get into the tree puller.

Speaker 3 Exactly.

Speaker 7 It needs to be someone you've almost forgotten about or hasn't been talked about loads, but you're introducing them to the conversation of, well, he's been getting a bit of a free pass.

Speaker 7 He's not exactly been doing much. Whereas, yeah, Verts has had way too much attention already.

Speaker 3 I mean, obviously, he's changed leagues, so that you know, that qualifies him, that makes him eligible to be a tree-puller-upper if he wants to be.

Speaker 3 But I prefer it for a player who's moved from England abroad, and then we have that distance, and we hear about them pulling up trees.

Speaker 3 So, Trent has certainly, Trent, can a right-back pull up trees, though? This is the book, but I suppose if anyone can, he can. Yeah, he can.
All right, great. Lovely stuff.

Speaker 3 Right, next one comes in Beautiful Square 301, Charlie. Gary Neville has just said he's giving Jeremy Doku the man of the match after 62 minutes of Manchester City's win over Liverpool.

Speaker 3 I don't hate it, but what could happen to have someone steal it from it or for Doku to lose it after 62 minutes?

Speaker 3 So what could have happened in that last 28 minutes of that game to take the man of the match away from him?

Speaker 7 Well, this time 12 months ago, City gave away a three-goal leader home to Fire Nord.

Speaker 7 They were 3-0 up. went 3-0 up after 53 minutes.
Haaland just got his second, and after 62, it was still 3-0.

Speaker 7 And I think the commentator then would have been within his rights, say, well, I'm giving it to Haaland. You know, he's been absolutely outstanding, and this game's going nowhere.

Speaker 7 So then Fire Nord score three, and I don't think you probably wouldn't get it. You'd give it it to one of the Fire Nord heroes who scored or been pivotal to that turnaround.

Speaker 7 So I think that that's your kind of example.

Speaker 3 If Florian Wurtz had pulled up a hat trick of trees in the last half an hour, a mini forest. Well, that's an easy question then, Dave.

Speaker 3 More tricky was what could have Jeremy Doku have done to lose the man of the match? Like, even... Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, I suppose if he conceded a penalty, I think that would still have been a mere asterisk on his performance because Man City would still have won.

Speaker 8 What about he, so City have a corner and for some reason he is deemed to be the best option to cover at the halfway line because he's the quickest. Yeah, plausible.
And

Speaker 8 Liverpool break, he ends up being the last man, brings someone down in the box, gives away a penalty, gets sent off, Liverpool get back into the game and ends up winning it.

Speaker 8 And that's the moment where it changes.

Speaker 3 Oh, I mean, I mean, it still feels like an occupational hazard rather than

Speaker 3 a hapless moment. But it's probably enough to get the man of the match away from him, though.
But what a tantalizing question this is.

Speaker 3 I think he'd have to do something a bit more deliberately unhelpful to his team.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he's like showboating in the box and then gives away a silly penalty as a result.

Speaker 7 Like someone nips in and he fouls him and then scores an own goal and it's sort of suddenly becomes a horror show.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so I don't think he's let his team down with that incident, Dave, because he was the last man. What could he have done? But

Speaker 3 he punches someone,

Speaker 3 then obviously he's getting the man of the match award taken away for moral reasons. Never was it a good thing.
What's he doing there?

Speaker 8 He's completely lost his head.

Speaker 3 I know I've given him the man of the match, match, but at this moment in time, anyway, can't punch it into your own net like that.

Speaker 3 He's gone too far.

Speaker 3 Right, this episode is brought to you in association with Nord VPN. For those who don't know, VPN stands for virtual private network.

Speaker 3 It secures your connection, protecting your personal information and online activity, especially on public Wi-Fi.

Speaker 3 A VPN can also make your phone or laptop appear as if it's in another country, which is great for accessing content while traveling.

Speaker 3 Indeed, via Bobby Fagihi of Korea We Go fame, let's head over to the WTA Finals in Riyadh.

Speaker 3 Charlie, I quite like this X doing X things. I think it's a good example, good evolution of it.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and to be fair, because this is both like playing really well, but also stepping up when it really matters.

Speaker 3 So it's kind of clutch as well as kind of elite play so i think there is kind of something in that there was an interesting emphasis there when she said the world number one doing world number one things which suggests that sometimes she might do world number 14 things she can other moments i mean she can have some ropey periods and sets including in the start of this one there you go um i mean uh completely incidentally charlie i'm i'm completely um enamoured by the idea of a group stage in tennis uh that that's a that's a cool thing for a tennis tournament to have it's just like yeah i like it.

Speaker 7 It is a real novelty. I mean, it's generally loathed within the sport.
Right, I bet.

Speaker 7 Because also, if you do get like a final dead rubber, it's not like you play the kids. You can't like, oh, I'm just going to wrestle a backhand for this.

Speaker 3 Costa Rica 2014. Exactly.

Speaker 8 Just going to serve under arm for this game, actually.

Speaker 7 I'll send my coach out to play 4B. It's fine.

Speaker 3 Anyway, if you want to try NordVPN for yourself, go to NordVPN.com slash clichés, and our link will also give you four extra months on the two-year plan. It's the best discount available.

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Speaker 9 Tis the season.

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Speaker 3 Welcome back to Football Cliches. A reminder that we're recording episode 11 of Dreamland this week.
It's going to be all things international break.

Speaker 3 Specifically, Charlie, how we survive the international break. That sounds quite a loaded title.

Speaker 3 We're going to look at it from both sort of sides, but I think it's an interesting kind of chapter in the football cycle, the international break. No one really knows what to do with it, I think.

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly. And I hope it'll be good because, you know, I'm a self-avowed clubman, certainly during the club season.

Speaker 7 And then we've got Dave, who's, you know, fully signed up member of the England club. So yeah, it should be good.

Speaker 3 And I'm a bit of both, actually. This is going to actually work really nicely.

Speaker 3 Well yeah, if that sounds interesting to you, for just $5.99 a month, you can sign up for Dreamland to get ad-free listening of all of our episodes, two episodes a month of Dreamland, our exclusive show, and other things as well, including a discount on our merch, which, by the way, has now returned from the tour journey, and it will be shipped out soon to everyone who's ordered those.

Speaker 3 So as promised, they will arrive in November sometime. So look forward to those.
Right. Really enjoyed this poser from Reddit about the concept of a 10 and a half.

Speaker 3 This is a quote from Thomas Tuchel, Dave. The main thing with Phil Foden is he gets a role in the central part of the pitch.
I don't see him as a winger.

Speaker 3 He will contribute as a nine and a half, a 10 and a half. Very fluid.
So, Dave, so let's start with the concept of nine and a half. I would say is the most common and a half in football.

Speaker 3 I think everyone commonly accepts it to mean a number nine, but can do other stuff around it.

Speaker 8 Yeah, a number nine who sometimes plays as a number 10. Harry Kane, you know, dropping deep,

Speaker 8 not being just an out and out number nine. So nine and a half makes sense in that respect.
I've never heard 10 and a half before.

Speaker 8 Tuchel was talking about Foden here, so he will contribute as a nine and a half, a ten and a half. He sort of can't make up his mind which one he wants him to be.

Speaker 8 Presumably a ten and a half would be somebody, would be the opposite, somebody who plays as a number 10, but can, like Bellingham, be a bit of a sort of number nine presence at times.

Speaker 3 That would make logical sense, but I worry, Charlie, because you know, we've got to grips with what nine and a half means, and I quite like it as a concept in football.

Speaker 3 You know, even the proper football men could probably get their heads around what nine and a half might mean in casual conversation.

Speaker 3 But if we're going to start talking about ten and a half, we need to make sure that we are sticking to the right logic. And what could a ten and a half be?

Speaker 3 Our correspondent says that a ten and a half could be someone who drifts over to the left wing, for example. Exactly.

Speaker 7 Yeah, if you follow the logic, then it's someone like Ezza who kind of plays as a ten but likes likes going over to the left as well.

Speaker 7 Interesting. If a 10 and a half is what a nine and a half is.

Speaker 3 So our correspondent, Daves, said, I started thinking about all the possible and a half roles. One and a half, a goalkeeper who sometimes goes out to the right and defends the opposition left winger.

Speaker 3 No, let's do this seriously.

Speaker 3 A one and a half would be a manual Neuer, someone who completely commits to being not just a sweeper keeper in terms of sweeping up the danger, but actively contributing to the build-up play of their team and proactively starting attacks.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 that seems to me to be a slam dunk of a one and a half. I think Jorge Campos would be too much.

Speaker 8 Yeah, but

Speaker 3 that's one and three quarters, surely.

Speaker 8 But that's the thing. So one and a half, it suggests that you're trying to reach number two.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 8 is he sort of half keeper, half right back?

Speaker 3 I want to stretch the definition to the real extremes here, Charlie. I want it to mean doing their fundamental role, but also contributing something else.

Speaker 3 But I think we can use the original sort of definition elsewhere in this team. But for goalkeeper, I think Emmanuel Neuer is one and a half.

Speaker 3 But the idea of a goalkeeper sort of biasing out to the right-hand side is very funny.

Speaker 8 I could see a German coach or a German tactics guy describing him as a 1.5.

Speaker 3 Eint und Halb,

Speaker 3 is potentially how they'll say it, but it probably not.

Speaker 3 Charlie, to our fullbacks, we go. Now, we've got a big decision, kind of 50-50 decision to make here, as we all do with many of our 11s, actually.
A two and a half.

Speaker 3 Our correspondent says a right back who drifts over to the left.

Speaker 3 I would say I want my two and a half to be a kind of maybe a Rhys-James situation where they start at right back, but they invert into midfield in possession.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I think both two and a half and three and a half are just sort of inverted fullbacks.

Speaker 7 I mean, or one could be, but the numbers don't quite work, but one could be more of one of those fullbacks who inverts into the defensive positions and makes it a back three. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 If you want to differentiate between the two fullbacks, but Dave, a fullback playing on their unnatural side, but not necessarily inverting, so you know, just happens to be playing out there in a semi-makeshift role, that doesn't count as an and a half?

Speaker 3 No. If anything, it's less, isn't it? Yeah.
Yeah, it's just a half of

Speaker 3 their right number. Okay, okay, fullback's causing us a problem there.
Four and a half, Charlie. A left centre-back who can play right centre-back.

Speaker 3 Some people will tell you that four is a midfielder number. Those people are wrong.
And let's not get into that. I definitely don't want to get into that.
But four and a half.

Speaker 3 So, I mean, a Beckenbauer, maybe? Sort of doing more.

Speaker 7 I mean, what about like Rude Hullett? Because he kind of played as a, nominally a sweeper, didn't he? But would be all over the place.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
He played everywhere.

Speaker 7 All over the place.

Speaker 3 He was a sweeper when he came to Chelsea in the mid-90s. Everyone thought he was absolutely mad that he was wasting himself there.
But yeah, so I quite like a libero, Dave, being a fan of the city.

Speaker 3 I was going to say, yeah.

Speaker 8 Are they going to have to rename the podcast to the four and a half podcast?

Speaker 3 It's got a ring to it. Five and a half, Charlie, a right centre-back who steps up into defensive midfield.

Speaker 3 I can see what, so it's not quite sweeper Beckenbauer situations. It's more of a mundane tactical role.

Speaker 7 Yeah, and that does happen, you know, against low blocks to try and

Speaker 7 add some finesse in there.

Speaker 8 John Stones.

Speaker 3 Yeah, so yeah, I think that's sticking to the ethos quite well, Dave. It's just an extra bit of responsibility, but nothing glamorous.

Speaker 8 Yeah, I think to move it forward, the six and a half. Now, that is something I could very much see being talked about at some point because there's so much talk about sixes.

Speaker 3 Is he a six? Is he an eight? eight? Yeah, I mean, he's almost six and a half, really. He can't be a seven.
That's the problem.

Speaker 3 Is he a seven?

Speaker 7 You could almost say, like, Roderick's a six and a half because he, yes, he's well, he's a six, but he gets, you know, he scored like the Champions League final winning goal.

Speaker 7 He gets forward a lot, scores good goals. But yeah, you're bang on like Dekton Rice.
That's always the debate.

Speaker 3 Is he a six? Isn't that he's both? I feel like Decton Rice is more six and a half than Roderick. Rodger, Rodger just ends up in advanced positions, but you're never really sure how he got there.

Speaker 3 Surely it's the journey is important, isn't it?

Speaker 7 Yeah, he certainly wouldn't play in any position but six. Whereas, yes, Rice does play in both increasingly just as an eight, really.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah.
Right. A seven and a half, Dave.
A right-sided forward who drops into midfield. So just touch, just talk in, talk in when we haven't got the ball.

Speaker 3 Yep. Right, good.

Speaker 7 I mean, Becks was, you know, he was a seven. He was a winger, but he always had designs on coming in field and playing more centrally.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 8 Wasn't he a six and a half then?

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 7 Well, maybe later, but I think early he was a set because

Speaker 7 his starting position was as a seven, but he would just keep coming in.

Speaker 3 But once again, we've got to be careful here that it's players adding something to their game and doing other things as well, rather than players essentially deserting their post and doing something else.

Speaker 3 Beckham, stay right.

Speaker 3 Right. Eight and a half.
Don't mind this. Frank Lampard making runs into the box.
So essentially, not an attacking midfielder, but a central midfielder scoring goals from midfield.

Speaker 3 Lampard is an eight and a half. I like this.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he is, although so key to his success was the fact that he was making runs from deep. Like, he was in no way a nine.
That just wouldn't have worked.

Speaker 7 Can you imagine like him just like standing on centre-backs and things like that? That just so wasn't his game.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is good.
And then 11.5, then finally, Dave, a left-sided forward who's not quite match fit, so starts on the bench.

Speaker 3 Okay.

Speaker 3 Yeah. 11 and a half.
Yeah, super sub. That's quite good.
A left-wing super sub.

Speaker 3 Excellent. Tremendous stuff.
We enjoyed that.

Speaker 3 Right, Craig Spencer writes in next, Charlie, and says, I was watching PSG Bayern the other day, and there was an obvious usage by the commentator of hero to zero for Louis Diaz, as he went from scoring a brace to being sent off.

Speaker 3 It did feel like a semi-appropriate usage of the term, but it also made me wonder if there are even more appropriate circumstances for the phrase.

Speaker 3 I feel like the most obvious one is when a player scores and then scores an own goal. But scoring twice and getting sent off seemed to run down, especially as Bayern went on to win the game.

Speaker 3 I welcome the panel's thoughts. What's the ultimate hero to zero situation for you?

Speaker 7 Well, I think this is a good hero to zero because not only did he get sent off, but he he caused a pretty bad injury and was quite, you know, he was quite villainous the way that all happened.

Speaker 3 Zero? Did he go to zero? I mean, he still scored twice and they won the game.

Speaker 7 Yeah, but in that moment, I think he would have felt, you know, it would have been like, we talked before about, you know, why have you let your team down?

Speaker 7 Like, it was a real, you've let your team down here moment and injured a fellow pro.

Speaker 7 But yeah, I mean, I guess just in a playing perspective, yeah, you score and you're the hero, but then you score an own goal to put your team behind. You have really gone from hero to zero.

Speaker 8 This is a real-life example of what we were talking about with Jeremy Doku.

Speaker 3 Yes, Dourette.

Speaker 3 I mean, Dave, we should allow for the fact. I'm perhaps I'm being a bit literally Dave here.
You know,

Speaker 3 in the realms of football speak, the zero doesn't really have to be zero, does it? But so I think just getting sent off and not participating in the game anymore makes you zero.

Speaker 3 I think that's basically it. Exactly.
Rhymes, all right. Just do it.

Speaker 8 There's some license involved here, for sure.

Speaker 7 There are, of course, lesser spotted examples the other way, like the film The Mask, where Jim Carrey's character, the tagline, I believe he was described as going from zero to hero. Right.

Speaker 7 But I feel like in football it is more, yeah, it's more common for it to be the other way around.

Speaker 3 He works for a bank. He's got a decent job.

Speaker 7 Stanley Ipkiss.

Speaker 8 From zero to hero. A goalkeeper who's made a real gaffe in a high-profile game, but then goes on to be the hero in the penalty shootout.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, that leads me on to the concept of hero and villain, which is so loosely deployed, Dave.

Speaker 3 And it's, and it's almost always in penalty shootouts where a goalkeeper will will save and make a really important save and be the hero potentially and then will step up and miss and be labelled the villain which is so ridiculous that's worse than calling someone zero when they don't quite qualify a villain you can't be a villain no if anything it's it's the opposite it's a it's a heroic act to even take the penalty if you're a goalkeeper the only villainous act a goalkeeper really do in a penalty shootout charlie within the realms of possibility is constantly stepping off their line to force a retake and therefore just flouting a really technical rule and therefore being a villain.

Speaker 7 I mean, he didn't, because I was going to say, villain is very like you get red card. You know, Beckham was the villain at the 98 World Cup.

Speaker 7 But Emi Martinez did get sent off in a shootout for Aston Villa, but he was allowed to carry on. He got, I think, he got a second booking in the shootout.

Speaker 3 Oh, for tossing around. Brilliant technicality that was.
For gamesmanship.

Speaker 7 And everyone's like, oh my God, someone's going to have to go and goal. But he was allowed to carry on.
But it was like, it's quite villainous behavior in many ways.

Speaker 3 That was a genuinely amazing kind of clarification of the laws of the game, Dave, when it became apparent that yellow cards reset for a penalty shootout because they're not part of the game.

Speaker 3 I was like, wow. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8 Amazing. I mean, it's a good example, Emi Martinez, because he's a villain, but in the pantomime sense.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And that's fine, I think. I think that's enough of a villain, really.

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Speaker 3 Right, next up, the lineup for I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here. You know, we hear it full-named much anymore, do you, Dave? Ashley, now I think about it.
But it's been revealed.

Speaker 3 And Cliche's very own Nick Miller says, I'm getting significant, surely he's managed Watford already vibes from some of this lot.

Speaker 3 Some of them are so tantalizingly have they done the jungle before, haven't they?

Speaker 8 It's amazing. And I suppose, in a way, that's probably testament to the casting in that they all just feel so right, sort of thing.

Speaker 8 But yeah, I mean, for me, everyone will have their own one who they think is the one that's been on before. But when I looked at it, I thought, surely Martin Kemp has been on there.

Speaker 7 He was one of them.

Speaker 8 I'm sure him on there.

Speaker 3 Also clearly. I clearly see him wearing the fucking car key outfit and the red sort of pointless vest to denote which team he's on.

Speaker 3 Ruby Wax. Ruby Wax OBE.

Speaker 7 I mean, she jumped out of me.

Speaker 3 She's wearing it.

Speaker 7 Surely she's been on something like this.

Speaker 8 My little mate, Ruby. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, just to show the tangled web of celebrity programming that props up the careers of some of these people.

Speaker 3 So Martin Kemp has done Celebrity Big Brother

Speaker 3 Series 10, which was back in 2012, which still seems a bit weird to me. Seems so much more jungle to me.
I agree, Dave.

Speaker 3 Lisa Riley has done Strictly 2012 Celebrity Catchphrase twice and Cash in the Celebrity Attic. So

Speaker 3 her time in the jungle has arrived, I think.

Speaker 8 That's interesting. I didn't realise it was celebrity attics.
It's not celebrity cash in the attic, it's cash in a celebrity attic.

Speaker 3 They've really mixed it up.

Speaker 3 Kelly Brooke, yeah, cash in the absolute attic. Kelly Brooke has done Strictly 2007, Celebrity Race Across the World, The Great Celebrity Bake Off, and Celebrity Antiques Road Trip with Lisa Riley.

Speaker 3 Okay, great.

Speaker 3 Has Lisa Riley just got a house full of antiques or something? Yeah, she's the one.

Speaker 3 Ruby Wax, Charlie, has only done Celebrity Shark Bait 2005. Wow, I find that impossible to believe.
What else is she doing? Like,

Speaker 3 finally, Eddie Caddy has done, he's sort of late onto the scene. He's done Strictly 2023 and Celebrity Apprentice Christmas special this Christmas 2025.

Speaker 3 I met him the other day on Fighting Talk on BBC. He's going to do his MHD at some point.
He's one of the nicest blokes I've ever met. Like a genuinely top man.

Speaker 8 Well, let's hope he's, I mean, let's hope he does actually do it. And because he could be king of the jungle by the time.

Speaker 8 It's a real boon for the pod if we were able to get him on.

Speaker 3 Well, he was such a nice bloke, Charlie, that I said to him, I said to him, having met him for about two minutes, I felt emboldened enough to say to him, do you know what?

Speaker 3 On the basis of the impression you've made on me for the first two minutes of knowing you, you're totally the guy who's going to be cast in the role of optimistic campfire character who gets everyone going even when there's no food left or something like that.

Speaker 3 And that means you're guaranteed to get to the final four on that basis alone. How did he take it? He said, I'll take it all day long.
He says exactly what I'm up for. Good stuff.

Speaker 3 He left me, Dave, with the immortal words of, yeah, he gave me his number and he said, yeah, Evie, you text me, I probably won't get back to you for about a month.

Speaker 3 I said, yeah, that'll do me just fine for MHD. Thanks very much.
Those are the hurdles we often have to overcome.

Speaker 8 Was that a bit of a hint as to, because

Speaker 8 I presumably you didn't know he was going into the jungle at that point?

Speaker 3 Oh, no, we did. It was all off the record confirmed.
But no, he said, I think he's just said, generally, I'm rubbish at getting back to you. And that's exactly what we want from MMHD guests, isn't it?

Speaker 3 Fair play. Hey, maybe he would be alright.
Six choices for us.

Speaker 8 Maybe he could workshop some of of them around the campfire.

Speaker 1 That would be great.

Speaker 8 Martin Kemp's a football fan, I think. So I'm sure some of the other people on there are.
Just knock about a few ideas. We'll be watching.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that'd be great.

Speaker 3 Right, finally for the adjudication panel, The Guardians, Alexander Abnos, gets in touch and says, I was watching the Premier League post-match coverage, and it was on idly in the background.

Speaker 3 And the split-screen post-match interview was taking place between the NBC studio and the stadium.

Speaker 3 My wife pointed out that the arrangement of the split-screen and the labelling of the location made it look like Leeds Ethan Ampidoux was named Elland Road.

Speaker 3 This got me thinking about stadiums that could conceivably be names of people. I was looking through the list of English league grounds and it raised some interesting possibilities.

Speaker 3 Though, despite the genesis of this whole thing, I ended up ruling out all the Road stadiums because that surname just seems so unrealistic. So here we are.
He's tiered it, which is fantastic.

Speaker 3 The Park family, Dave.

Speaker 3 James's Park, St in brackets. Langtree Park, which is Liverpool women.
Victoria Park, Hartlepool, definitely a golfer on the LPGA tour, like that. Vale Park, probably nobody in the world named Vale.

Speaker 3 This is a good start, isn't it? Strong.

Speaker 3 We're doing well. Victoria Park will stand out here.
Very, very golfy. Then there's the Lane family, Charlie.

Speaker 3 Bramel Lane feels more like a hyphenated surname, but Meadow Lane, which he thinks could be another women golfer, I think is definitely a star on OnlyFans.

Speaker 7 I mean, Americans really help you out here because surname, you know, so often surnames are first names there.

Speaker 3 So, you know, a lot of of these seem pretty plausible could be tennis meadow lane meadow lane meadow lane yeah 17 year old phenom but will retire by the age of 24 meadowlane actually pronounced

Speaker 3 right some others from alexander abnos dave ashton gate this guy definitely plays lacrosse

Speaker 3 ashton gate ashton gate again another big serving u.s star for me ashton gate 149 miles an hour what a player potentially another nfl star charlie stamford bridge yeah again that

Speaker 7 I can well imagine the American called Stanford Bridge.

Speaker 3 Perhaps the most mundane and therefore realistic one of them all, Dave. Dean Court.

Speaker 8 Dean Court could be a footballer. Yeah.

Speaker 3 For sure. Rodney Parade.
Rodney Parade, maybe? Rodney Parade. Rodney Parade.

Speaker 3 Ecuadorian.

Speaker 3 Signed for Brighton, then for Chelsea for 180 million. Rodney Parade.
You can't be a Rodney. You can't be.

Speaker 7 Named after Rodney Marsh. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Very volunteer, actually.

Speaker 8 Exactly. Yeah, his parents were actually massive OnlyFools and Horses fans.

Speaker 3 His brother Del you're joking, but this could definitely happen. For God's sake, you've seen some of the names in South America.
It's mad. And Albert.

Speaker 3 Some huge stretches finally from Alexander Abnos. Charlie Turf Moore.
I mean, it reminds me of Brech Shea a bit.

Speaker 3 If you can have Brech Shea, you can have Turf Moore. Scandinavian, but also with a US passport.

Speaker 8 But it's spelt TOF, T-O-F, but it's got the little dots above the F.

Speaker 3 So it's Turf Moore. Turf Moore.

Speaker 3 Turf Moore.

Speaker 3 Roots Hall, Dave. That's definitely possible.
Roots. Yes.
Roots.

Speaker 7 Yeah. Roots Maneuver.

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
Fair point. And then finally, potentially an England international from the 1880s, Charlie.
Since Il Bank. Corporal Sincil Bank.

Speaker 7 Amazing. College certainly Roots Manufa's real name is Rodney.
So it all comes together.

Speaker 3 Taking two of our boxes. And then finally, final category from Alexander, Dave, one named Brazilian or Iberian players, Molyneux or Oakwell.
Oakwell's so good. Yeah.
You're a Shaktar. Yeah.

Speaker 3 He's either going to play for Shaktar or release an RB album in the late 90s. Yeah.

Speaker 8 Ibrox.

Speaker 3 Ibrox is great. We could do this forever.
But you know, but we're not going to do this forever because we've got a little bit of time left for a mid-week Keys and Grey Corner.

Speaker 3 If that doesn't secure people's votes for the FSA Awards, what will? Because it's time for the midweek Keys and Grey corner. Couldn't fit this in at the weekend because we had so much good stuff.

Speaker 3 But here is Keys and Grey on Mikel Arteta using AI.

Speaker 18 Yeah, he's now one of those that has adopted the use of AI. I don't think he's alone.
So let's give the guy a break.

Speaker 18 To do what? In-game AI has become very important to coaches as well. To do what? Ask a whole sub.

Speaker 18 Well, you can feed it real-time information that it absorbs and is offering an opinion more quickly, perhaps, than those that are sitting watching the football.

Speaker 18 It's all human beings we're talking about.

Speaker 18 But if this freedom is human beings, why not use it if it's available?

Speaker 18 All right, let me give you another one.

Speaker 18 Most players these days are using a personal trainer

Speaker 18 to

Speaker 18 sometimes with the permission of the football club, often not.

Speaker 18 So they're going under the wire with this.

Speaker 18 Any small advantage that you can take, isn't that to your benefit? No. AI, come on.
I don't... I get data.
They've got enough data coming from every...

Speaker 18 every conceivable angle that they could possibly have. Data, yes, I get that.
But AI is a very good idea. But people are talking about AI as as a tool to

Speaker 18 influence coaches to make changes or tell coaches that this guy might not play good. But it is only data.

Speaker 18 It is, you're feeding into the system all of the data and more you can gather during the course of a football match and it is absorbing it and then giving it back to you in a matter of time.

Speaker 18 What if it tells you

Speaker 18 a decision you wouldn't have done? You better take your number nine off because he's hopeless. What if the data shows that?

Speaker 3 Charlie, this is just the classic setup for Keys and Gray and to a certain extent extent, evidence that they're just wasted on, you know, in the tiny audience that they probably get in the Middle East.

Speaker 3 Because you've got Andy Gray just hamming it right up. It's probably what he thinks, but he's completely overdoing it.
And then Keesy, as the knowing provocateur, doesn't believe it either.

Speaker 3 But he's giving the kind of other side of the debate, saying, Well, look,

Speaker 3 it could just be. And it's not the worst chemistry in the world.
Like, I could watch that for a little bit longer.

Speaker 7 Yeah, he's playing devil's advocate very effectively. Yeah.

Speaker 7 There's probably probably also a small extent to which, you know, when you're with someone who's so extreme in their views, you do take a slightly more middle ground.

Speaker 7 Although actually often Keesy does just agree with what he says. But yeah, it works well here.

Speaker 8 Do you think Keese's a chat GP team man?

Speaker 3 I suspect so.

Speaker 8 I suspect he he probably asks it questions about

Speaker 3 at 1 a.m.

Speaker 7 Yeah, I was gonna say for what purpose.

Speaker 3 Really?

Speaker 8 Yeah yeah in that sense. Yeah.

Speaker 3 As I say Dave Gray sort of performing his role very well here, just the slightly disengaged proper football man. But my favourite bit is when he says when he talks about living breathing footballers

Speaker 3 the the machines take over stop characterizing it like that that's not what he's using it for clearly clearly not

Speaker 3 fuck's sake but so between them they couldn't quite make sense of it so of course they summoned the great arsen venge who seems to be in doha all the fucking time as the oracle for this so as long as a human being keeps the control, the authority and the power to make the decision, you can use any scientific tool.

Speaker 18 But what is happening and what is dangerous is that the science dominates

Speaker 18 decisions. I wonder which will be the first club to appoint AI as their first team coach.
Yes, because we seem to be heading in that direction.

Speaker 3 I mean again another little great one too Charlie. Andy Gray genuinely

Speaker 3 doing that kind of half-hearted fearing for humanity angle for AI, but not actually offering any reasons specifically why.

Speaker 8 You've seen Terminator 2.

Speaker 3 And and then keesy of course coming in with the gag that a machine a robot might indeed one day take over as a premier league manager who knows who knows yeah i mean venge with them it's it's always very odd isn't it you're kind of like what's he what's he making of this

Speaker 7 yeah he's he's well

Speaker 7 but he kind of has to play he just plays the same

Speaker 7 he just plays it very straight but there are times where they'll sort of be chiding him trying to get laughs yeah and he doesn't really buy

Speaker 3 every single time they do this and he just looks baffled not annoyed just a happily baffled.

Speaker 7 Yeah, just doesn't, just, yeah, just doesn't know what they're talking about.

Speaker 8 Really makes you think: like, what must the sort of pre- or post-show banter be like with Venga?

Speaker 3 Does he get involved in it?

Speaker 8 Like, is he laughing along to the gags? God, I don't know.

Speaker 7 Again, I think he probably just zones out. Yeah.
And is sort of in his own world at all.

Speaker 3 I'd have to go, but thank you.

Speaker 3 Anyway, thanks to you, Charlie Ekusher. Thank you.
Thanks to you, Dave Walker. Thank you.
Thanks to everyone for listening. I really enjoyed that one.
We'll see you on Tuesday.

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