Grimsby’s glory and Scottish sides slump in Europe – Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Manchester United lose to Grimsby Town and the Carabao Cup on penalties.

So many penalties, so much rain.

Eventually, Brian and Bumo, second time around, hit the bar, and that was that.

Grimsby were brilliant.

Amarim's men were lucky to get to penalties.

Grimsby two up in a dominant first half.

We're unlucky to have a third ruled out before Manchester United showed some resolve in the last 15 minutes.

Rubin Amarim says something has to change.

You wonder exactly what that could be.

From crisis to existential angst, Fitbar, with Rangers and Celtic trying to outdo each other night after night.

Ewan Murray joins us against his will.

And then a Premier League preview, including Liverpool.

Arsenal.

Jonathan Wilson's written a book.

Thank goodness we needed another one.

He'll try and sell it to us.

All that plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Jonathan Wilson, welcome.

Thank you.

How are you doing?

Congratulations on writing a book.

Thank you.

We'll talk about it soon.

From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon, hello.

Hi, Max.

And welcome, Robin Cowan.

Good morning, Max.

There is only one place to start, and that is Grimsby.

Grimsby 2, Manchester United 2 in the second round of the Carabao Cup.

Grimsby Grimsby ring 12-11 on penalties.

Won't someone think of the parents of small children when they keep scoring these penalties?

United had never lost to a fourth-tier side in the League Cup.

Moby Duck says, does this show Man United can beat anyone in League 2?

I mean, the shootout, Robin, was hilarious, wasn't it?

Because you felt like it would never, ever end.

It did.

Yeah, there's been a real contrast, hasn't there, over the Carabao Cup?

Because we could get to it, I'm sure, but the Sheffield Wednesday Leeds one was like the complete opposite.

No, it was it was ridiculous.

I mean, what it was a fantastic game, wasn't it?

Cup tie, obviously, it excluding those of Manchester United persuasion.

Um, you're absolutely right, you said in your intro, Grimsby really should have won it, really, in normal time, shouldn't they?

They missed a hatload of chances, had a goal rolled out for offside, which I know is a bit contentious.

Um, there's a few people saying that that possibly shouldn't have been, and then, yes, and then the rain, oh, the rain, and Ruben Amering's laminated tactic sheet.

And that was that was my first thought: I wouldn't have to laminate things if I was still in Lisbon.

And that's possibly, you know,

I think possibly the only thing keeping him there is that payout, isn't it?

Because I just think he just looks like he's hating every single second.

And it's just, it's crazy.

Yeah, I mean, it was so wet that you would have.

I mean, I...

Elite sports people, maybe they don't feel the same, but I didn't think those, the little tactics things were a bit small, weren't they, on the laminate?

was he sort of moving them around like it just it was hard to get them in your fingers when it was so wet.

It was almost like a it was like a sort of fidget spinner almost.

It wasn't to do with anything.

It was just to kind of keep him calm maybe.

Yeah.

It was no just wonderful cup time wasn't it?

Just loads of I mean, that's going to be a meme.

It's it's an instant classic.

Yeah, I agree.

What did you make of it, Mark?

Well, the uh Robin mentioned memes and it's all that Mick McCarthy one isn't it where you sort of ask you know they can't get any worse can they Mick and he says they can and it just feels like sort of manchester united are stuck um in in this sort of never-ending sort of downward spiral at the moment should

maybe we should start with grimsby and just how great they were as a you know team from the fourth tier to i think outplay manchester united for an hour um is some effort even if it was a change united team and you know they're not in a good space but it comes back to something you said a few weeks ago uh matt so you were talking um sense around kind of players from these um sort of lower leagues have been really good at one stage they were the best in their class the the best at um you know pym for instance i think he played for england under 20s or certainly around england junior teams but he's only six four so that makes it hard i think for him to go on and and become kind of maybe as successful as he would have hoped to have been when when he was a junior.

Warren spent more than a decade at Manchester United.

Vernon

had a trials with AC Milan.

McKechron was at Chelsea.

So, you know, these players have

been around sort of top levels previously and we just felt like they were inspired and wanted, you know, had a point to prove and really did prove it.

You know, there were opportunities.

I mean, Burns missed a...

a big one to make it 3-0 as well but i thought warren definitely felt like you know, so physical.

And I mean, Seshgo was in his pocket really for most of that game.

We maybe get onto him later.

And how was it?

It took the 10th Manchester United.

Yeah, we'll get onto it.

We'll go to each player on when they took a penalty.

So we'll get to Sesco by about hour two.

Yeah, but I thought McCekran was very good.

And it wasn't even necessarily Grimsby's first choice team either.

They made a couple of changes from the weekend.

Yeah, I mean, a shameful night for Manchester United, but a great one one for grimsby and their manager dave artel yeah who was loving it wasn't it actually the barry says how bad is it for united when dave artel of grimsby is giving a quasi pep so so good post-match interview uh

so artel said look they're an unbelievable team manchester united they've got an unbelievable manager and they're on the right track you can see that and i have to say i mean he didn't put a foot wrong dave artel yesterday and he was brilliant i loved him just laughing through the penalties because obviously it sort of didn't matter but it did but i i don't think i'd like to ask him where can you see this man united team are on the right track wilson because the the biggest surprise of this game was so many times grimsby was just kind of through like like like grimsby played through united way more than united played through grimsby oh yeah i mean every counter-attack they look dangerous every set play they look dangerous and i guess you you'd say for a fourth flight team to beat a top flight team set plays often are somewhere where they can challenge them but we've seen united really struggle with set plays both both against Fulham and against Arsenal.

Well, and constantly last season.

They're really bad at defending in-swingers.

Maybe because they've made two changes to the back three, maybe that's semi-understandable.

But it's not really acceptable.

But I think the bigger problem, or the more sort of long-term problem,

is that that shape.

The one advantage, I think, of

the 3-4-2-1

is that you should always have the back three two players sitting in front creating that sort of 3-2 shape which is the basis of all defending against the counter-attack.

Almost every team does that, that 3-2.

It goes, yeah, 100 years ago when the WM comes in, it gives you that 3-2 shape.

And it has proved over 100 years the best way of dealing with counters.

Guadalajar sides,

they try and have five men behind the ball at all times, and the five will be in roughly that 3-2 shape.

How you create that, whether it's one fullback goes up and you feel the shuffle across, whether it's John Stone stepping in the midfield, whether it's a fullback stepping in alongside the whole midfield to create the 3-2,

that's the basis of it.

The big advantage a 3-4-2-1 should give you is you should have had solid block and you should have at the very least be hard to play through.

And they were dead easy to play through.

So, even on its own terms, the formation of the system is not working.

Yeah.

And, Robin, I mean, you know, with all due respect and praise to Grimsby, it's Grimsby, for goodness sake.

Yeah, no, I mean, there's no doubt about it.

They should be beating Grimsby, shouldn't they?

I mean,

pretty much, you know, any team that's higher than Grimsby should be beating it.

I mean, it's just,

I think that the demise of Manchester United, it's kind of

it's still, it's still shocking because I think even just a couple of years ago, they would have made hard work of it, but they would have got through and would have criticised how poor Manchester United were, but they, you know, they would have got through this.

Now, I mean,

I actually don't know where they go from here.

People were sort of really grasping for green shoots of recovery in the first couple of games of the season.

I mean, they have played okay in those first couple of games, but, you know, they are, what have they got?

One point.

I mean, Amarin Marfood said, I think this is a...

is a little bit the limit.

He didn't say totally this is the limit.

Like, it could get worse.

Something has to change.

In this moment, we need to focus on the weekend.

Then we have time to think everything was wrong.

The way we started the game, we were not even here.

When everything is so important in our club, everything that happened, it's a problem in our club.

We should do so much better.

I just have to say sorry to our fans.

After the game, he said, I felt my players spoke really loud today about what they want.

Like, what do you think, Mark?

I mean, do you?

It's never felt good with Amir in there.

Like, he came, and lots of people say he came at a bad time.

He did.

He turned up in November, no preseason, changed the shape without the personnel.

Yeah, well, you say that

the reason for sticking with him is that at some stage you have to stick with something.

That seems to be the sort of, I don't even know if that is logic, but that seems to be the logic

behind, you know, we just, we need to back something.

But like, you know, what if you're just backing the wrong one?

And he's making significant changes and has been allowed to make those

changes, just like Eric Ten Haag was.

So if you do get rid of him and then you bring in a coach that actually doesn't believe in wingbacks and you go, well, we've just bought Dorgu and we're trying to build around whatever it is they're trying to build around.

You're starting again.

I personally wouldn't sack him on the back of just a cup defeat to Grimsby.

And I think you do have to give him.

more of this season with his team to prove that he's not the right person or is the right person.

But things do need to change somewhere.

I mean, I can't, it doesn't make any sense to me to be so wedded to one formation, no matter what else is going on.

I think you can have a philosophy and a way that you want to play,

but I don't,

to me, that you're just limiting yourself if you only, like Mason Mount came on and was playing, I think, left wing back.

It became a mess, really.

Maybe it was that sort of tactics board and people didn't quite understand.

But I think Mason Mount was playing the left wing back.

I don't understand that um for example whatever midfield he tries doesn't work i mean ugate mayno some people think that that it should be manchester united sort of two in front and should be more solid than say casemiro and fernandez but i mean it was no more it was no better than anything we've seen previously i didn't like the way i don't know if i'm becoming a proper football man here but i didn't like the way that he hid at the pet in the penalty shootout and wasn't with the rest of his staff and wasn't fronting up as a leader.

I don't think it mattered for the end result, but the optics of that don't look great when you're sort of sat there in the dugout on your own.

He didn't realise he'd be there for two hours.

No, no, but it just, it doesn't feel amazing, that's for sure.

But the United fans

have they didn't really turn on 10 half, did they?

And they still seem to be backing Amarim as well.

I don't know if they're doing that out of just blind loyalty to the club, but the match-going fan fan

just hasn't turned really on the team or the manager at any stage during this sort of spiral.

But I wonder, Wilson, if they are still more unhappy with people above them.

Simon says, you know, Amarim is clearly struggling.

Does there need to be more focus on

Jason Wilcox or just United's recruitment, how they have such a bad midfield and goalkeeper?

Yeah, I mean,

where do you start?

But yes, the recruitment is clearly a problem.

They don't have a good goalkeeper.

I mean, it's a minor,

well, no, it's actually quite major in the context of last night.

How weak are Inanna's wrists?

He got hands to, I think, four penalties.

One of them, he just about pushed onto the bar.

But even that, okay, it's a good save.

If he's got strong wrists, it doesn't have to hit the bar, it just bounces clear.

The other three go in.

That seems...

I know sometimes a shot is so hard or hits the wrong bit of the hand or something, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Four times the same penalty shear.

It seems like a pattern.

And it's not the first time we've seen it with a nana.

Does that mean the penalty taker on his drink bottle should have just kick it at a nana's hand?

That is the well, hit the target.

You're likely to score if it's a nana, I think.

It's basically

it.

So I was just thinking of

if it did have a drinks bottle, and then that amount of rainwater is being washed out to sea.

And it's rather the message in a bottle, a message on a bottle, it'll wash up at some Pacific island in 20 years.

And it'll say something like,

Bruno Fernandes, stand still, or whatever.

So, recruitment clearly is a problem because I don't think the metaphor actually works, but let's go with it because it's what is often used in football, that you have to start with the foundation.

You don't build a house by

putting the roof on first.

And

as I say, I don't think it does hold as a metaphor, but the fact that they have just built this incredibly expensive roof, and it's not just no foundations, there's not even any walls, it's just sort of a roof suspended in the the middle of nowhere.

It's like a Victorian bandstand on very sort of rusty legs.

And to accommodate Kunya and Bermo and Sheshko, they've had to take two of the players who played quite well last season, Bruno Fernandes and Amigallo, and put them in different roles that don't seem to suit them particularly well.

So bizarrely, they spent £200 million on forwards to make themselves even worse.

We thought they couldn't make the squad less fans.

And yet somehow, fair play, they've achieved it.

But there's also,

I get Mark's point about you've got to give him time, but there's a massive danger of doing that because

why are you giving him time?

What are you thinking is going to happen?

You're showing faith.

And it is faith.

There's no evidence.

It's faith.

This will come good.

This is somebody who,

well, 10 months in the job, he hasn't won two league games in a row yet.

Is that right?

Yeah.

I don't think there's been any sign.

There is that guy.

Sorry.

There is that guy saying, you know, I'm not going to cut my hair till I win five games in a row.

And obviously his hair has got so ridiculous, but then someone tweeted yesterday, this guy's going to be the first person to die from having too much hair.

It's a funny line.

Sorry, I interrupted you a bit.

So he will only play this 3-4-2-1.

I've got reservations about that as a system anyway.

I think

for a team that should have a ball, you know, United are not Crystal Palace, it works really well

because they don't need the ball.

They play without the ball.

They're really effective at doing so.

Also, we've got the right players for it.

Wharton and Will Hughes recently,

the back of midfield, you've got one who's really good at picking passes, one who's all energy, wins the ball back.

You've then got two number tens.

Okay, Eza leaving

causes problems, but maybe Yoam Epino can do that.

But they've got basically two sixes and two tens in midfield, and that works.

And because that's base of a three and a two,

you know that that the team counters against you you're solid so that means your wing backs can play high up look at sunday where's their goal come from comes from target mitchell getting down the left his cross is cleared but then wharton pings it straight out to the right and daniel munos is in space because the whole defense has been dragged over by mitchell he's got time to measure his cross and saw scores so for palace it works is they've got the player they've got the players and

they can they're comfortable playing without the ball they're a mid-table side so playing reactive counter-attacking football is fine for them.

Manchester United, because of their stature, because of their tradition, can't do that.

So I'm not sure how you ever play 3-4-2-1 when you're expecting to have a ball, because so much creativity comes down to the two number tens.

But then look at who they're trying to play in the deeper midfield.

And

the Casemiro of five years ago possibly could have done it.

Even then, I'm not sure he quite had the energy.

the stamina, the dynamism to do it at Premier League level, possibly.

Casemiro now certainly can't.

Ugate just doesn't look good enough to do it.

Bruno Fernandes doesn't have the defensive capability, so you've got to have somebody alongside him who can play that with real aggression.

I mean, basically, you need Ngolo Cante alongside him.

And Golo-Cante did play in the one side that's ever won the Premier League, playing the 3-4-2-1, which was Conte's Chelsea 2016-17.

But he was playing alongside either Maticho or Ces Fabragas.

So, again, either a player who's really good at holding his position, tactically very intelligent, spreading the ball, or one of the best passes of the ball we've ever seen in the the Premier League.

You need very specific players and cobbling that together with the offshoots of six different Manchester United managers is really hard.

So I don't think the system is right anyway, even if everything is put in place and he has time and he can build a squad to do that.

But also the cost of taking a squad that for all it was a shambles and for all it was...

patched together from loads of different ideas.

The one thing that unified it was it couldn't play 3-4-2-1.

So you've got to overhaul the entire squad.

20 players, 25 players you've got to overhaul.

Enormous cost.

Because they're really bad at selling players.

You've got no PSR headroom to do that.

So that's a really difficult thing to do.

And the cost of doing that is you're going to lose Kobimenu.

You're going to lose the best young player you've brought through in a decade.

Because he doesn't fit in that system.

Do you mind just now I'd really want to sacrifice Kobby Monu on the altar of the Amarim faith?

for which there is no evidence it is true.

Amarim has not done a miracle.

He has not turned water into wine.

He has not raised Lazarus.

He has not

walked on water.

I mean, to be honest, he did sit in water yesterday.

But even then, you know,

the Mark talks about the optics are sitting in the dugout.

That just says

a man with no faith.

Yeah, he has no faith in his squad.

And if you are going to be a preacher, you know, this messianic figure, you know, pulling people along to your faith, to your dogma, you have to look like you believe it yourself and you contrast that with say and this is not a particularly messianic figure or charismatic figure but rafa benitas

in the liverpool chelsea semi-final champions league semi-final

and when the penalty started then when it was against mourinho and he you know obviously rafa is very conscious of mourinho's mind games his attempts against psychological psychological age what's benitez do he sits down cross-legged on the side of the pitch and looks like the calmest man in the stadium And that just, it shouldn't make a difference.

But I think that radiates belief of, well, the manager just thinks we're going to win.

The manager is so calm that he's sort of doing some sort of Zen pose.

He's a yoda, doesn't he?

Yeah, he's getting his morning yoga in early rather than sitting on the bench rocking back and forth as the rain lashes down around you

and the angels weeping for the decline of Manchester United.

Robin?

I think there is something in that, definitely.

Because, I mean, I don't know how he is with the players in the dressing room or on the training ground.

We don't know.

But the image he projects to us of just a very sad,

depressed individual.

And I just don't think that's healthy for the players.

My other point was just going to be that system, tactics, whatever, and he wants to.

You obviously need sort of square pegs in square holes.

But how about a bit of coaching?

And this is nowhere am I saying Ruben Amering is the problem at Manchester United.

You know, I think the last sort of decade has illustrated that.

But it's like, as Wilson Wilson just said, they're going to lose Cobby Maynu, maybe.

And that's an absolute, it's just a tragedy.

And just like, why don't you try and teach him to do what you'd like him to do?

Instead of recruiting more?

Yeah.

They've got Bernie at the weekend at home.

I mean, that feels suddenly just the absolute pressure on that game

is enormous.

Elsewhere in the Carabao Cup, Port Vale had a good win at Birmingham.

Cambridge United, of course, beat Charlton in the presenter, Producer Derby, Football Weekly Derby, to earn a trip to Fulham,

to which Derek says is Fulham, Cambridge in the next round, the poshest tie possible.

How dare you?

Brighton won 6-0 at Oxford.

We'll do an Oxford minute part three, Robin.

Everton won another game at Hill Dickinson.

And Sheffield Wednesday getting past Leeds on penalties is great, Robin.

You want to say that was the reverse penalty shootout, wasn't it?

It was over in like 10 seconds.

Well, because Leeds missed all of them.

It was 3-0

and all done.

So, yeah, I mean, wonderful for Sheffield Wednesday.

And I know Barry Glendening isn't here, but he was always the one to say when you're protesting against an owner, you need to do it properly.

And they did it properly, didn't they?

They didn't come in in the 10th minute or whatever.

They weren't there, Sheffield Wednesday fans.

It was like an empty stadium.

And instead, they said they'll donate the

ticket price to Sheffield Children's Hospital.

So it's just, you know, just a great gesture all round.

The only thing I was going to say is that maybe, I don't know what the owner was, I mean, she probably doesn't care.

But they obviously won without supporters.

It's like, well,

I don't need you anyway.

But I just want to say I'm hugely admirable because also I saw that apparently you do sort of miss out on points to get away tickets if you don't go to those games.

So, you know, this is proper sacrifice.

So, yeah, well done to the Sheffield Wednesday fans.

Yeah, well done.

There are some rumours of John Texter being interested.

I don't know if that is, I mean, obviously Chanceri not being there is good.

I don't know if John Texter coming in is good, but they just need a new owner, don't they?

Of the third-round ties, the fun ones, Lincoln, Chelsea, Doncaster going to Spurs, Huddersfield hosting Man City, Bradford going to the holders, Newcastle, Barnsley hosting Brighton and Port Vale hosting Arsenal.

So some possible upsets there.

Anyway, that'll do for part one.

You and Murray joins us for part two for more misery as we work out who's worse, Celtic or Rangers.

Well, look, we know Rangers are worse than Celtic.

You take my point.

Hi Pod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

We have a live show on the 11th of September, the Troxy in London.

Jonathan Wilson, Nicki Bandini, Johnny Lou.

We've already signed up some cameos.

Tickets can be purchased from the guardian.com/slash football weekly live.

We are live streaming it around the world.

We could do with some real ultras stepping up if you want to fill the top tier.

You know, we are it's I think the capacity is about the average attendance of Ultringham.

We haven't hit it yet and you owe us you bastards.

So come and watch us.

We have we have big plans.

The halftime show sounds very good.

And one set piece which

ultimately involves a video of me that I don't really want broadcast, but it is very funny.

Anyway, come along please.

Theguardian.com slash football football weekly live.

Charlie says, Has anyone had a worse week than Scotland's coefficient?

Doom says, Is this the worst week for Scottish football since the last week of July in 1966?

And Clayton says, It seems a cruel and unusual punishment to make Ewan Murray do Fitbar Corner this week.

Welcome, Ewan.

How are you?

Oh, on the contrary, I quite enjoy that stuff.

Yeah, well, you are neither a Ranger or a Celtic ball.

Who's had a worse week?

I mean, like, you can choose, Ewan.

I don't know, like, recency bias.

I was actually watching the Man United game and I put in the group, you know, go have a look at the halftime score in Bruges.

You're like, wow.

I don't know.

Rangers seem to be going worse than Celtic, even though Celtic are out of the Champions League on penalties to a team I had not heard of until this week.

So, where do you want to start?

Yeah, to Charlie's point about the coefficient, I mean, it's not over yet.

Aberdeen and Hibbs have still got to play, so it could yet get worse

after this goes out.

I think on balance Rangers, yes.

But I mean,

I don't remember the way Glasgow works, you know, ebb and flow, yin and yang with football.

Routinely, one set of supporters is happy and one is outraged, and there's not very much in the middle.

Occasionally, both of them are reasonably happy about something.

I don't remember a time when there is collective dismay and anger the way there is just now for different reasons.

But both Celting and Rangers fans are utterly furious.

Maybe it could bring that it could bring the city together.

It could be harmonious.

They could go to old firm games, you know, sit next to each other, arm in arm, possibly.

Like games on Sunday, we won't see that.

No,

it won't go that far.

And I also don't remember, I've been racking my brains for a managerial stint that seems as quickly as doomed as Russell Martin does at Rangers.

I thought of Moyes at Man United, but I think even he got a little more leeway and grace.

So yes, it's interesting times.

Yeah, Stephen says, as a Rangers fan, my team's complete and utter incompetence has reached a point where I can only laugh at how lamentable we are.

I'm guessing you'll primarily talk about Celtic being beaten by Kyrat.

I just want to emphasise to your audience...

just how rubbish Rangers are under Russell Martin.

In the first leg against Bruce, we were 3-0 down after 20 minutes.

In the post-match presser, Russell turned into David Brent and said he was proud of his players for getting it back to 3-1.

What happens next?

Bruce score after 5 minutes.

Max Ahrens, who should never be starting ahead of our club captain and legend, James Tavernier, gets sent off three minutes later.

It boggles the mind.

Yeah, 5-0 down at halftime isn't ideal.

So, what have you made of Russell Martin?

He's an interesting character, right?

And he clearly divides opinion, but sort of since arriving in the Premier League with Southampton, it has been all bad.

Yeah, and it's continuing that way.

A lot of focus,

there's two interesting things to me.

One, the level of kind of disdain Rangers fans had for him from the outset, which is unusual.

Normally, they would so desperate for success at Rangers, they would give someone a chance and almost over-support them.

But they were very, very cool on Martin from the from the outset.

And that's obviously only got worse as the weeks and the games have gone by.

I mean, touching on the game at Bruges, it was five and a half half time.

It could and should have been more.

They were all over the place.

And the other point is so many people sneak about Martin's philosophy, Martin's system, Martin's desired way of playing.

Well, that's one thing, but Rangers are just so disorganized.

They are defensively horrendous.

I mean,

it is kids' stuff.

So, I think no matter what your system or your idealism is around football, you cannot be such a mess at the back.

And that was shown up.

It'll be shown up by a decent team.

It's been shown up by, you know, they failed to beat Dundees and Mirror and Motherwell in the Scottish top flight, never mind when they play a decent team in Bruges.

And they just

horribly exposed that.

And

I mean it so early on, it seems ludicrous, but I cannot see a way, even in the medium term, that Russell Martin extricates himself from this situation.

Yeah, and like, because after the first game, didn't he throw half the team under the bus?

Which seemed an interesting move.

Yes, he did it.

They had a preseason game against,

I think it was Middlesbrough.

I might be wrong with that, but he had a go at the way certain players warmed up in this pre-season game.

That's where it kind of started.

Then he had a real volley at them again.

You're right in saying that at the game at the game at Motherwell.

But I mean, you look first at the management and the structure of the club.

They have signed players.

They've gone down a route that Rangers have tried before and it hasn't worked, which is largely players from England, largely basically championship players from England.

The Rangers have tried this before and it's failed.

You could swap the players they have now for previous guys from the same domain.

They don't seem to get the intensity of the club.

They don't seem to understand what it takes to play for Rangers.

I think people at the club think it would be easier than it is for these players to assimilate.

I mean, three of their back four last night were lone players as as well.

That's not where Rangers should be as a club.

And basically, you have a team which, as I said, is, I mean, their defensive frailty has to be seen to be believed, but they're slow, they're passive, they're not athletic, they're not quick, they're not aggressive.

The opposite of what you would want, I would suggest, from a football team.

And as I say, the level of disdain and dismay towards Martin, I'm really not sure how he pulls himself out of this, including because they play Celtic on Sunday and it's very, very hard.

Notwithstanding Celtics' problems, which we will come on to, it's very hard to make a case for Rangers in their current state beating Celtic.

Do you think Wilson Russell Martin is a you know, he has been good at times, right?

And we were talking about Amarim and his sort of dogma dogma, right?

And it's a different dogma.

And, you know, I suppose Russell Martin can say for his faith, well, there's some evidence here that it worked at one point.

I mean, it worked in that he took Southampton up from the championship.

Um, even that was a bit of an odd season.

Sundon beaten 5-0, or 5-1 just before they then went on a 20-odd game unbeaten run.

So they were never 100% convincing even that season.

But

I think the Premier League is really, really difficult.

I think we maybe underestimate how hard it is.

And the truth is that you can't play the same way for 10 games in a row because you've got 19 of the best minds in the football world backed up with...

massive data analysis teams working out where the weakness is, what can we do to stop them, how can we exploit the little flaws they've got.

And I don't think it took 10 games with Russell Martin.

I think Posse Cogli took 10 games.

And what might be alright to win in the championship or in a league elsewhere, the Premier League is, it's every single game is hard.

And I think

what you see, I think what we see with Russell Martin is his confidence or his people's confidence in him was so battered by what happened in the Premier League that because his next job is in Scotland, where there's at least sort of an awareness of what's happened in the Premier League, he's starting

from a low base.

If he'd gone to Denmark or Belgium or somewhere where people maybe haven't focused quite as closely on how he failed, or where people might even be sort of grateful that here's a Premier League manager coming to our league, I mean, he didn't work for Scott Parker in Belgium, admittedly.

Maybe you then do have a chance to rebuild.

But going to Glasgow,

everybody knows what a failure he he was, and they're just waiting for him to fail in the same way.

And it's happened immediately.

Yeah,

he's seen as a fantasist, Jonathan, isn't he?

He's seen as a guy who wants to implement a style of football which is just impossible.

That's how he is probably, possibly unfair, but that is how he is now portrayed.

Yeah, I think that's absolutely fair, yeah.

Sorry, you and shouldn't it be possible

against the other teams in the Scottish Premiership, right?

Because Wilson's saying the Premier League is hard, but like there are, he's drawn three games that Rangers just should win, right?

100%.

And that's why he doesn't have any leeway with supporters.

I mean, he speaks about pain and about process, which seemed to me like code for give me more time here.

But, you know, no one would dispute a new manager at a club which needs a big overhaul might need a bit of time to do exactly what they want to do.

But in the process, you have to beat Dundee, you have to beat Mulliwell, and you have to beat St Murin.

There's no excuse, not really just for the results, but for how completely disorganised Rangers have looked.

And then when you, as I say, you play a decent team in Europe, the whole thing just gets amplified.

So he's found himself, you know, in that invidious position of having no wriggle room whatsoever so early on in his job.

And so, Celtic, then, you know, they had a really good Champions League last year.

Like, the new system worked for them.

They got through to that playoff, didn't they?

They had some really good games.

This time they're out and they were knocked out.

I mean, had you heard of Kyrat, Ewan?

I had.

I don't know why, but I had.

Yes, they must have played someone else on my radar.

Fair enough.

You're a better football brain than I am.

No, I'm not.

No.

But look, they went out on penalty.

I mean, Celtic must have just looked at that draw.

And you shouldn't be complacent, but fans, players, the manager, everyone must have thought, right, we're through here.

Like, this is done before the game happened.

No, the fans certainly didn't.

No, really,

no, because there's been this general concern and noise, and quite legitimately so, but the fact they haven't supplemented their squad since January, actually, when they lost Kyogo, who was their main centre-forward to to Ren.

I know he's now going back to Birmingham but they lost Kyogo so they needed a centre forward.

They then they brought in Giotta, Portuguese wide player, got a bad injury.

They then sold Nicholas Kuhn to Como.

That's a lot of attacking

threat taken out the Celtic team.

They knew they had a Champions League playoff game and they haven't added to the squad and there's been audible disquiet from Brendan Rogers, even more audible disquiet from Celtic supporters.

And listen, I would be the first one to say that sometimes Celtics fans can come over as entitled and spoiled.

But in this case, they've completely got a point.

I mean, Celtic, since Brendan has come back,

they've seen beyond Scotland.

They were decent in the Champions League, although the results didn't always show it.

In his first season back, they were very, very good last season.

How many times was I on here talking about how well they did in the Champions League?

They should have beaten Baron Munich in that playoff round.

So they have a platform there and something to build from, and they've wasted it and and there's and what why why haven't they invested well i this goes back to it's quite a consistent age-old thing with celtech they don't seem to want to spend big despite having tens of millions probably a hundred million in the back i i think as a club we're possibly stuck between knowing they are dominant in scotland and and raising a level to spend a bit more that they think can make a difference in Europe and I understand them being stuck in that position but there's no excuse given the players they've lost for not at least having a squad which is at the same level of last season as they are now.

It's worse, and I think

that's unacceptable if you're a Celtic fan.

Yes, ma'am.

You know, I was just going to ask: I mean, there have definitely been some Celtic fans that have just said, well, Brendan Rogers wasted sort of the previous money, and that there's been sort of nervousness around spending.

I mean, is that fair as well?

It's a fair criticism.

I mean, the players this bought last summer, Bernardo, Trusty, Engels, and

Ida.

Ida, sorry, exactly.

Yeah, £9 million.

They have not made nearly enough impact in the team.

I think that's fair enough.

Brendan will argue that they, and he has argued, they supplemented the squad, which helped competition in the squad,

and that they are development-type players who we can make better.

I think the truth is, it's always been a Brendan Rogers' weakness, I think, signing players.

I think he's very, very good at certain things.

I think identification and signing of players is not his strong suit.

So, that is a valid criticism.

But, you know, essentially, I think we're increasingly getting to the point where Celtic and Brendan Rogers are not compatible.

They're not aligned when it comes to whatever transfer policy they want to embark on.

And we've seen that this summer.

I mean, Celtic, they will now sign three or four players before the end of the window, which actually will just annoy their supporters even more because they'll say, we could have done this weeks ago.

I mean, they didn't even have a backup left back for these playoff games.

They end up shuffling people all over the place when Kieran Tierney can finish a game.

So the whole thing is kind of muddled and it's going to get to a point.

I mean, Brendan's out of contract next summer.

I think as we stand now, there must be zero chance that he's inclined to hang around.

And it's going to go to this kind of unsatisfactory ending, which, as I say, I think is a shame given the great strides they made in European football last season.

Ange back?

Oh, Celtic would love that.

Definitely.

I mean, so many of Celtic's team touches on Mark's point actually are still Ange players.

You know, Carter Vickers at the back, Hatati in midfield, Kyogo was the main man up front until January.

You know, Posta Coglu came in, and I thought a key advantage of Posta Coglu, apart from the fact that he was an excellent coach who could succeed in Scotland, was he knew a market that Celtic could really benefit from.

And the Japanese player influence at Celtic.

Yeah.

These players couldn't have gone to the Premier League, for example, and had anything like that impact.

But it was a material benefit to Celtic to sign these Japanese players.

Well, most of them, they had a couple who haven't worked, but mostly it was a real, real success for Celtic.

So, yeah, I mean, Celtic, I'm sure, would love him back, but I suspect he will have other offers.

I also suspect he's very much the kind of guy that doesn't go back.

Yeah, possibly.

From our friends at the sweeper pod, Kirat, Almaty made history by becoming the easternmost club to ever reach the Champions League group league phase tonight.

Yeah, it was 3,500 miles for Celtic to travel.

So some big old trips there.

Does that could hearts could they what?

Seven points from nine?

They've got this investment from Tony Bloom.

Could they possibly take advantage of this crisis?

It'd be amazing to see a team that isn't Rangers or Celtic win the top flight.

I hope so.

Well, that's certainly Tony Bloom's medium-term aim, isn't it?

Yeah, if you're a supporter of Hearts, which I obviously am, you hope that advantage can be taken of the state of flux that Celtic and Rangers are in.

I think that'll be a longer-term process, to be perfectly honest.

You know, Celtic will spend money and strengthen, and I expect will win the league again.

The Ranger situation, I think, is more interesting.

It depends how long that run was on for, to be honest.

As I said, I can't,

I feel bad saying it genuinely, but I really can't see Russell Martin lasting that long.

So, on the basis, they improve that and again spend some money, they could sort themselves out, possibly not before January.

But I think Celtic

have enough

well, I'm pretty confident Celtic have enough domestically to win the league again.

But the situation situation of both is the kind of thing that Bloom will have looked at in advance and thought there's opportunity there.

Chris, can you ask Ewan what's currently big in the world of retrieval practices in mathematics?

This is once again, I tagged the wrong Ewan Murray on Blue Sky.

So

it's a different version of when people tag you instead of the golf commentator.

Yes.

This Ewan is a psychology PhD student at the University of York looking at using spaced retrieval practice in mathematics.

So apologies, Ewan.

I couldn't tell tell you the square root of 149, so I've got no chance with whatever that question was.

No, 12 and a bit is probably in it.

Anyway, maybe you can't swear 149, can you?

There you are.

That's how

that I am with that stuff.

Anyway, thanks, Ewan.

Have a good day.

Thank you.

Cheers, Pelp.

You and Murray there, our Scottish football correspondent.

And that'll do for part two.

We'll do a Premier League preview in part three.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, then the Premier League Super Sunday, 4:30, Mark, Liverpool Arsenal.

This is great, isn't it?

It is great.

It feels a bit early in the season.

You sort of want this game, I think, later on when both teams have bedded in their new players.

But

it will

still be a good game.

I mean, Liverpool defensively are not set yet.

So there is an opportunity for Arsenal to go and get a positive result.

I think going to Anfield in August is very different to, say, going there in April.

If the title's on the line, they've got this good record in recent years.

Arsenal against the...

the big six.

I will include Manchester United now,

just for the sake of that.

In that, there's 22 Premier League games unbeaten against the Big Six.

a lot of draws away from home I wouldn't be surprised if this one finished in a draw it feels to me the kind of game where like not losing is probably more important than risking the win at this stage of the season but certainly an opportunity like I say I think from Arsenal's point of view like it's better to play Liverpool at Anfield this early in the season and have the home game later on

because yeah it feels like a different atmosphere if you're going there sort of with the title on the line.

Robin Saka is definitely out.

Erdoga, maybe.

So we could see Eze coming in, which I'm fascinated to see how he goes.

Yeah, I mean, obviously very sad that he left Crystal Palace.

I mean, I feel like this every summer.

I feel like, can't you all just stay and then see what happens at Crystal Palace?

But yeah, no, unleash Eza.

And, I mean, he's just going to be buzzing, isn't he?

He looks so happy to be there.

I just wonder, I mean, yeah, Arsenal aren't beaten in the last six against Liverpool.

So I think they, I mean, I don't want to say they're going to be favourites at Anfield, and Liverpool have looked a bit shaky, but it's kind of been against teams that are more sort of counter-attacking, I think.

And I'm not sure if Arsenal, that's kind of their main threat, is it?

Well, it's corners, isn't it?

So, yeah,

I guess we'll see.

If Liverpool can defend corners, it might end up in a draw.

Yeah, look, we spoke about it on Tuesday after the Newcastle game, Jonathan.

But it is interesting how open Liverpool appear to be.

Yeah, I mean, six goal have conceded in three games so far.

And weirdly, they haven't been behind yet, which suggests the problem is when they take the lead.

Well, last season they were so good at controlling games with the lead.

You know, they made 2-0 their sort of

trademark scoreline.

And

in both league games so far, they've been 2-0 up and haven't held it at 2-0.

So that suggests that the changes they've made, they struggle to get that level of control.

I think it's not just personnel, but I think Kirk has looked really shaky, surprisingly so.

Canate's had a horrible start of the season, which I think partly has to do with changes in midfield

and that shift to some more of a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3.

It has changed roles in midfield.

And I think there was maybe a hope from a Liverpool point of view that Gravenberg coming back in on Monday would just solve that straight away.

Well, it didn't.

So

that is an issue for them.

But I think if you make as many changes as they've made,

there are going to be problems early on.

And I think another issue they've got is that the right side, and it's obviously Frimpon getting injured, Sabersai having to play right back on Monday, doesn't help this.

But Salah seems to be becoming detached as a result.

That they've,

I think, Alexander Arnold's capacity to play those quick 30-40-yard passes to release Salah, they really miss that now.

Ekatike, and who knows, perhaps Isak at some point, will have to form a relationship with Salah.

And it's, I think that's easy for centre forward because part of your job with Salah is to get out of the way for him.

So, I think there's quite quite a lot of, anyhow, not massive problems, but there's a lot of little question marks there.

Crisis game, Mark, is at the city ground, Nottingham Forest versus West Ham.

Where's the

Claxon of Doom going to land on all of this?

Well, I definitely think the Claxon of Doom is more in East London than it is in Nottingham at the moment.

Because if Nuno does depart the city ground,

it's an attractive job now.

And I'm sure that they'll get a good manager, Poster Coggle, who was linked to it.

I think Brenda Rogers

was also being mentioned.

They'll find somebody.

I watched West Ham lose to Wolves, and

it was not a good performance when they were winning 2-1,

but it ended in just terrible fashion.

Jared Bowen clashing with away supporters.

I would have felt that Bowen would have been the last one that would have been the target of abuse, but definitely kind of throwing the captain's armband to to the floor um didn't go down well what's worse a shirt or an armband i mean on the xhaka scale it's not quite the whole shirt is it it it's not but yeah when when fans when a fan base is angry um it becomes angry at everything um and so you know most of the most of the frustration is aimed at the owners um

they've also just seen everton move into a new stadium that immediately has got a better atmosphere than the one that they're kind of been forced to play in for the last few years.

And so that kind of has been brought up again.

It was forgotten about for a while while they were on some decent European runs.

So that's come back to the fore.

We're speaking about formations and systems quite a lot in this pod, but the West Ham fans are not happy with the way that West Ham have implemented their back three.

It has meant that Boeing has not played wide.

They went to Bollinghouse, didn't play with a striker.

They're in a bad, terrible shape,

conceding just so many goals.

I mean,

I'm trying to add it up now in my head.

Is it 11 in three games?

Yeah, so 11 in three games.

Like, this is a big opportunity for Norium Forest to get another three points on the board.

And I'm not sure how long Potter can ride this out for because as much as Karen Brady was on the radio recently saying that he's a good man, he'll be given time.

How much time he hasn't improved him him from Lockertage, that's just clear.

Yeah, actually, she was on the show before us.

Me and Barry were listening along before we went in.

And she said, you know, the thing about, you know, we've got a never say die attitude.

And I didn't want to pop into the studio and go, I mean, I did watch Summer Way yesterday, Karen.

I didn't seem like that.

That isn't how I would define never say die.

I let them get on with that bit.

Man City goes to Brighton.

It's quite interesting.

Right off the back of that defeat to Spurs, you know, because City had won the title in the first week.

So

now they're at now they're out of the race.

Do they go back in it?

Because

Brighton have looked actually good in both games and haven't got a win yet.

Yeah, no, I agree.

Yeah, it was a really bad sort of second week for knee-jerk reactions, wasn't it?

Because it kind of, yeah, there was a lot of that.

Yeah, and I think, yeah, Brighton obviously had a really good confidence-boosting win over Oxford United in the Carabao Cup, having changed their whole team.

And yeah, they've had the better XG in their first two games.

But again, you know, Barry pointing out that they they don't seem to hang on to what they have or or sort of finish off teams because you know they can see that later equalise to Fulham and then yeah they were better against Everton but somehow conceived to to lose

lose that game so I think they can give Manchester City a run for their money but it's just it's just what sort of Manchester City team turns up and how how well Brighton implement their their game plan.

How have you felt about Sunderland?

Wilson, they played Brentford at the the weekend.

It's a big game.

I mean, Sunderland have been granted a relatively straightforward start.

So you compare that, you know, Ipswich last year started Liverpool, Manchester City.

So there are no points taking potentially two bat rings for the two games.

Whereas Sunderland going West Ham at home, Burnley away, Brentford at home.

Then...

Yeah, you've got Palace away and Villa at home.

So, okay, Palace away is probably the hardest of those five.

So

I think

on the one hand, it's an opportunity to get a good start and get a bit of confidence and belief you can

exist at that level.

On the other hand, if they don't get at least one more win in those next three games, then you're starting to think, oh, hang on, those were the easy ones.

And

what do we do next?

So,

yeah,

the danger always from that first game was, was it a case of Southern being good or West Ham being bad?

I think it was definitely West Ham were bad.

It's just you hope a little bit of it was Southern being good.

Dan Ballard's injury is not great news.

That Mukiele was able to start the game against Huddersfield mid-week.

Well, he lost on penalties because everybody loses on penalties to Huddersfield.

Huddersfield's penalty record is incredible.

I'm aware of this.

Yeah,

they've been promoted.

They won the League Two, League One, and Championship Playoffs on penalties without scoring a goal in the games.

So, yeah, Huddersfield and penalty shootouts are the surest thing going.

So, look, I think going out of the League Cup is not the worst thing in the world for a team desperate to stay up.

But they probably do need any result to have against Brentford just to keep the sense of momentum.

Going out of the Carabao Cup for teams that are, you know, desperately trying to stay up is good news.

So, it, I suppose, we should have said in part one, it was good news for Manchester United.

Um, Spurs, Bournemouth, Mark, uh, how have you uh rated Thomas Frank's excellent start to our title-winning season?

Yeah, well, yeah, it has been um an excellent uh start, it looked very organized, um, you know, throughout the team, uh, clear plan and identity in each game.

Um, he's been able to change tactics depending on the um opponent.

Like, I heard people on Saturday mentioning the P-word like Pochettino, and how it feels

because every Pochettino is just the reference point now for kind of you know, for Spurs fans.

Now, like, is it as good as when Pochettino was in charge?

And you kind of, nobody's been able to get that balance right like he did.

Uh, Mourinho and Conte were, or Luno, were on one side of kind of tactics and Postakoglu was at the other end of

that scale.

And like Frank seems much more balanced, been very good in press conferences, but there's this disquiet in the background around transfers.

I prefer to win football matches than transfer windows, but there is this belief that from a growing section of supporters now that kind of the club is being let down really and it's been embarrassed

this summer and sort of the moves that they've tried to make.

And if they don't sort that out in the next few days, you're going to get into the Champions League with a squad that won't be able to cope with playing sort of every Saturday and then midweek.

So I think there's going to be another protest outside the ground at sort of

again the section of supporters that want the change in ownership.

I won't be joining them on the march to the stadium, but I would like to see a couple of new players just to help Thomas Frayne.

One of those protests, Robin, where they protest and then go and watch a football match.

Chelsea Fulham leads Newcastle.

Newcastle had a £55 million bid for Translation turned down by Wolves who play Everton.

Villa play Crystal Palace as well.

Robin, let's have your Oxford United minute, in order of importance, your Oxford United minute, then Jonathan Wilson's new book.

I don't think I'm going to need a minute.

Yeah, it's been a very tough, tough start.

Tough start to the season.

Lost every single game.

So they had a very big defeat to Brighton in the Carabao Cup, which was a...

We're labelling that as a free hit, which we didn't hit anything.

So yeah, tricky, tricky start.

Whose gaffer there?

Is it still?

Gary Rowatt.

So I believe in Gary we trust.

I do think he's an excellent coach.

I know that Oxford United, you know, to think that he would be coaching us a couple of years ago, that would be kind of a bit fanciful.

So tricky.

New stadium coming in a few years.

So that's very exciting.

But whether we're in League One or Championship at that point, not sure.

You know, lowest budget in the league, you know, rightfully should really be relegated.

So anything you can do is a bonus.

Now, I understand Oxby United fans, I have a different, you know, as someone who sort of works in the game, I know they're...

They have a more vociferous view of this sort of thing.

I'm quite Zen.

It's still early on.

I think are not relegating us yet.

But yeah, I've got Coventry at the weekend who obviously hit seven past QBR so yeah we'll we'll see we'll see but I do like you know knowing the level of your football team to be safe two years ago if you told me Gary Rowatt was managing our team I'd have bitten your arm off it's the thing dreams are made of no I agree he's a very he's a very good manager come on then Wilson you've written your big book of World Cups

Yeah, and I don't want to oversell it, but I think it might be the greatest book ever written.

That's good.

Yeah, we've seen a lot of worrying stats recently that people are not reading as as much as they were.

This will single-handedly change all that.

This is going to make literacy cool again.

How many will you give away at the live show?

Two.

Two, okay.

That's not Oprah levels, is it?

Half the audience are what I hear.

The big Wilson spike.

You get a free Wilson book, two lucky winners.

Okay, well, why is it good?

Tell me why it's good.

So it's a history of the World Cup.

It's got all the stuff you'd expect in terms of the great goals, the great players, the great games, but it also gives you a lot of politico-economic, socio-cultural background and lots of detail on stories that I thought I knew and it turned out I didn't know as well as I did.

So

it's a work of, if I may say so myself, monumental research written in a beautiful and moving way that'll lift the spirits and raise the hearts, maybe even bring a tear to the eye.

It will be the greatest thing you've ever read.

Right, yes, right.

I'll say I saw it was a delight to see Wilson in the press room at Crystal Palace last weekend and he showed me his wedding dance video.

I've seen that.

Beautiful.

It was very moving.

And probably the most exciting thing of that, that was pre-match.

That's probably the high point, I'd say.

There wasn't a 3-4-2-1 formation.

I thought it was a little stiff, but you know, like it was...

It was good, Wilson.

I think what you failed to understand is that

it was too Tchaikovsky.

If you look at the way that late 19th century Russian stance, that was quite stiff.

It was quite formal.

I think you have to bear in mind that was probably about, I don't know, about 10 p.m.

by then.

I'd say alcohol had been consumed.

Well, no, that should loosen you up.

I think without any booze, it would have been...

No, so

having to remember the...

It was two minutes and six seconds that I had to remember of moves.

It took a lot of focus.

I think as well, you've got to remember as well.

It starts with

the comedy and collude of having to be begged to dance.

That was all built in.

And then there's the.

Some of the worst acting I have ever seen.

Yeah, but deliberately so.

Oh, right.

Okay, that's the Russian 19th century style.

Exactly.

And then the impromptu bit where...

When my wife punched me in the face right at the end

by mistake.

And I wish I'd gone down clutching my face.

That would have been a better conclusion than when we had.

If there'd then been a melee between, you know, both sides.

And then you've got, like, you must be friends with some rep, like Jeff Winter had come on.

Barry could have done the VAR sign and sort of could have put it on the big screen.

Exactly.

Yeah, it'd been really good.

She throws down her garter.

But then everyone has to wait for 20 minutes while the decision is, they're all just going.

At the wedding, you don't know what's going on.

No one's telling you.

There's no communication.

We've got no idea what's happening.

Anyway, well done.

It was marvellous.

And that'll do for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thank you, Robin.

Thanks, Max.

Thank you, Wilson.

Cheers.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mark.

Thank you, Max.

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray.

Our executive producer is Joel Grove.

We'll be back on Monday.

This is The Guardian.