Rio’s teenage kick caps a thriller at St James’ Park – Football Weekly

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Speaker 15 Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 15 And when Hugo Ekatike put Liverpool 2 up early in the second half against 10-man Newcastle, you'd be forgiven for turning the TV off and going to bed.

Speaker 15 At least I hope I'm forgiven for turning the TV off and going to bed. What an end to this game.

Speaker 15 William Asula with his first Premier League goal to get a point for Newcastle, the least they deserved in the 18th minute before Sobozlai's beautiful dummy.

Speaker 15 16-year-old Rio Ngamoa wins it for Liverpool. It was a breathless game.
Thank goodness we didn't have to watch all of it on ref cam.

Speaker 15 Newcastle were excellent with 11 and with 10 after Anthony Gordon's daft and poor challenge on Van Dijk, but Liverpool have two wins from two without being that good.

Speaker 15 Also today we'll talk Max Dauman and the ethics and practicalities of a 15-year-old playing Premier League football.

Speaker 15 We have Leeds Man United and Spurs on the panel, so we'll get their thoughts on those. Plus the latest transfer news, your questions, and that's the late Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 15 On the panel today, Johnny Lou, welcome. Hello.
Hello, Lucy Ward.

Speaker 14 Hi, Max.

Speaker 15 And good morning, John Bruin.

Speaker 5 Good morning, Max Rushton.

Speaker 15 Let's start at St. James's Park then.
Newcastle 2, Liverpool 3. I mean, what a game, Lucy.
It was brilliant, wasn't it?

Speaker 14 Honestly, it was excellent. And when that second goal went in just after half-time, I thought, oh, it probably just sort of spoils it a little bit because, you know, 2-0, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 14 But I just think that Newcastle were excellent, probably better when they were down to 10.

Speaker 14 And I think it shows you as well, all these people who are trying to make football an exact science that you can never allow it to be.

Speaker 14 It's not an exact science. You cannot take account of the crowd momentum, resilience, determination, things that you can't quantify.

Speaker 14 And I think that game last night certainly showed that Liverpool really struggled to take advantage of the extra man, but they did it in the most brilliant way right at the end where they drew, I think they just drew Newcastle into Kanate and it was a fantastic goal.

Speaker 14 Ngamoa, I mean, he is not lacking confidence. And that's, we will go on to talk about younger players, but just that sort of no fear whatsoever.
And it isn't a fear. They just enjoy it.

Speaker 14 You know, at that age, they don't have the consequences in their head. They don't have the, oh, we were not going to get three points.
They just have, let's go on and see what I can do.

Speaker 15 Hitting it first time at that that decision making incredible but yeah what a game yeah just a micart engemoa he's 17 in three days but you are 16 until you're 17.

Speaker 15 29th of august 2008 i kissed a girl katie perry was number one and lucy's right john isn't she the goal because liverpool didn't create much but actually that move and for every part of that move it was brilliant football and to sort of execute that in the 10th minute of injury time is is sort of quite impressive, especially the dummy from Soversline.

Speaker 5 Within that 11 minutes added on, Newcastle had, for the first half of that, looked the most likely. And then suddenly Liverpool recovered their

Speaker 5 on a slot sense of calm and cool and passing the ball. I think it's fair to say that Newcastle were tired and entitled to be tired.
And so, yeah, they just moved away slowly, deliberately,

Speaker 5 and using that extra man. No one marked the 16-tilly 17-year-old.
The finish was fantastic. As Lucy Lucy said, it's one of those games where spirit overcomes, well, personnel and talent.

Speaker 5 You would say that Liverpool had a more stacked team, and

Speaker 5 Newcastle wanted it more.

Speaker 5 You could see, I mean,

Speaker 5 from the very first tackle, they were throwing themselves into it. And obviously,

Speaker 5 one player in particular took this a little bit too far.

Speaker 5 It reminded me of

Speaker 5 WCW or WWF wrestling, the way that he sort of charged all the way around. It's like he ran all the way around the ring and then jumped in to do some sort of

Speaker 5 special move on Virgil Van Dijk.

Speaker 5 Van Dijk's look at him was almost like,

Speaker 5 why have you done that? You know, because it was so ridiculous. The decision went to VAR.
The Newcastle fans obviously didn't like the decision. The referee, Simon Hooper, was

Speaker 5 neither side liked the referee. We'll get on to, I'm sure,

Speaker 5 his new job in a bit as a cameraman. It was a red card.
I mean, you cannot do that.

Speaker 5 I don't think there's any dispute about that. And Newcastle, it's almost like they got too fired up.
Then they found about the right, just about the right amount of fire. Liverpool were a little bit

Speaker 5 caught cold, weren't they, by how

Speaker 5 Newcastle came at them. Bruno scored that goal.
And the way Newcastle fans celebrated a goal to go 2-1 down

Speaker 5 i think lucy's right it that set the the game even more on edge because it just felt like they were celebrating an equalizer already it just did that the whole momentum of the game was just

Speaker 5 was just spinning that way it was just uh a fantastic spectacle all-time premier classic premier league classic and It's so early in the season, we've already had one.

Speaker 15 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 15 I mean, that's the really interesting thing about how Newcastle, you know, when a Sula scores, Johnny, and it's a massive moment for him, his first Premier League goal, and then he's running to get the ball to go, we can still win this lads.

Speaker 15 And you're like, what do you do? You're 10 men, like, take the point. But Newcastle did have that ascendancy for almost all of that.
I thought they were the better side with 11.

Speaker 15 Liverpool scored against Norway and had a decent spell, I guess. But then what did Newcastle do, or why weren't Liverpool better? I suppose is my question.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, I mean, this is the immense power and I guess the ultimate limitation of how Newcastle approach these, certainly these big games, they will fight you. They will chase everything down.

Speaker 1 They are possessed by this almost godly energy.

Speaker 1 What it means is that they will, you, you know that you've got a game in every area of the pitch. They are incredible at robbing you of the ball or getting their challenges in.

Speaker 1 But I think what it also does mean is that they are liable to, I think, just lose their heads a little bit.

Speaker 1 Certainly, you saw this in the first half an hour where they like Newcastle were totally dominant and just didn't have enough guile

Speaker 1 to convert all of that possession, all of that territory, and all of that energy into the thing that they most needed, which was a goal.

Speaker 1 And that's fine when you have someone like Isaac, who's just brilliant at turning these quarter chances into half chances, into

Speaker 1 proper opportunities. But they don't quite have that poise in the final or third.
Gordon, well, we saw his rush of blood, Harvey Barnes, they are not quite there yet

Speaker 1 a as a team that that can

Speaker 1 almost modulate their their emotional temperature but it it was you know it was fantastic to see i mean i guess the reason liverpool weren't great is the reason liverpool weren't great against bournemouth they look they their pressing still isn't quite right there are enough teams in this league who can who can play through that press who are comfortable enough dwelling on the ball in their own half and then picking their moments and i i don't think uh I don't think Liverpool's rest defence is anything like it as good as it was last season.

Speaker 1 That's why they, you know, they are liable to go through periods where they're pretty under the cost because

Speaker 1 they simply can't control the game like they did last season.

Speaker 14 I saw somebody describe Newcastle as not having a particularly high ceiling in the group, but have a high floor. And I think that is just exactly what Johnny's just said.
Not quite yet.

Speaker 14 The players at the top, really, really sort of elite, high performing, but they certainly have that sort of character. But just a little point about the red card.

Speaker 14 I think that is the sort of shithouse challenge that pros really don't like. And when

Speaker 14 Virgil Van Dijk turned to look at Gordon, he knew that Gordon will be sent off. He sort of basically, I bet he said to him, listen, man,

Speaker 14 that's a red card.

Speaker 14 It's standing leg, wait on the standing leg, and someone comes in after you've kicked the ball

Speaker 14 is a real no-no, real coward challenge. And I think that, you know, obviously decision-making, not the best, but I think Van Dijk knew that he would be sent off.

Speaker 15 And and the more you watched it the and i and i follow a lot of different people on on twitter and obviously you know covering different clubs and i did see one newcastle journal basically said a contentious red cat i nearly i nearly replied and i thought no don't reply don't do it but yeah it's yeah there's absolutely zero argument about that i likened him to a sort of crazed dog the way he's sort of like he's yapping from like right back to keep he's actually almost running he almost does a home run doesn't he he does like three bases before he gets there but yes baz did point out in the whatsapp group that dogs are generally not as stupid as that apart from dalmatians he said that are all inbred but i i didn't know that about dalmatians apologies apologies to all the dalmatians out there if that is uh libelous against them i think that is i think it is really interesting the change from liverpool last year john in in in that

Speaker 15 they've invested obviously it takes time for new players to settle in

Speaker 15 but graven birch wasn't there in the first game and everyone was saying well well look when you put gravenberch back in there that covers the centre backs but even still like the goals they conceded i mean kirkz for the first goal is like it's hilarious right that's terrible defending and the second goal how they can concede that is unbelievable kirkz come back andy robertson all is forgiven uh thankfully he's in the squad and is still

Speaker 5 you know a very experienced uh campaigner and and i think we'll see probably a bit more of him than we expected at bournemouth there were there were doubts over his defending there's little doubt about his ability going forward.

Speaker 5 It can be worked on. Andy Robertson was not a dissimilar player when he joined the club under Jung Klopp.

Speaker 15 Wurtz. Okay, interesting.

Speaker 5 This guy is a

Speaker 5 no one doubts his talent, but he's a player that in Germany is a player that dominates a game.

Speaker 5 And what we're seeing so far is that he is a player who can decorate a game, but he's not in the centre of it. There was a point, a friend of mine pointed this out to me.

Speaker 5 After about 11 minutes, he he went over to take a corner and he looked tired because the pace of the Premier League compared to the Bundesliga

Speaker 5 is you ratchet it for much further up and he's having to run, he's having to press harder than he would do, than he than he would have done playing for Bayern Leverkusen, as much as Javi Alonso would have asked him to do that.

Speaker 5 He's the player that is supposed to change the dimensions of Liverpool, but he hasn't done it for the positive just yet. Hugo Ekatike,

Speaker 5 listen, we can't really complain about his impact on the team. He's scored in every game.
You do wonder, though, if he himself presses in the same way as the players that he replaced. Liverpool

Speaker 5 had made this great change, brought in so many players, and it will take time, but the message is out there. If you run and chase and harry and get at Liverpool, you can get at them.

Speaker 5 And funny enough, that message was back there, was there in the Carabao Cup final back in March. Yeah, uh, and Arna Slot hasn't really found a way around that just yet.

Speaker 15 I'm not going to make the mistake two pods in a row of saying, you know, a player doesn't have legs after claiming that West Ham midfield didn't have legs, although I think

Speaker 5 maybe they don't have legs, which amuse me.

Speaker 15 But that's interesting, Johnny, about Florian Verts in that, you know, obviously it takes time and you can't judge a player after two games. And we know his ability.

Speaker 15 But those are those things to learn, like learning, perhaps having a tiny bit less time on the ball or having to run more, those sort of physical fine margins, some players don't necessarily, you know, some players can't do that.

Speaker 15 And so that will be interesting to see if he can sort of learn to run quicker, run more, et cetera, as well as do what he does so well, but just with a tiny bit less time.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I mean, it is interesting.

Speaker 1 If you look at the players that come from, like the elite players that come from the Bundesliga to the Premier League,

Speaker 1 there is a period of adaptation because

Speaker 1 certainly for players whose game is based on movement, you know, Timo Werner, Kai Havers,

Speaker 1 guys like De Bruyne and Haaland, they adapted, I think, a lot quicker because they weren't in that, they weren't playing in the, obviously Haaland didn't have to run very much.

Speaker 1 And De Bruyne's game, I think, was a lot more, you know, a lot better suited to the Premier League originally. Wierts

Speaker 1 is a brilliant creator. I think the issue for anyone arriving on that sort of fee is like, okay, where are your goals? Where are your assists?

Speaker 1 Are you grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck? You know, Gerard style, this was, this was the issue that Pogba had when he came for that fee. People wanted to see immediate miracles.

Speaker 1 And, you know, he wasn't really that sort of player.

Speaker 1 He was a keep ticking things over in midfield sort of player. And Vietz is the same in the extent that he's not a guy who's going to get you 20 goals a season.

Speaker 1 He's not going to grab a game by the scruff of the neck. He, you know, like John said, he does decorate a game.

Speaker 1 The other issue is he is a leap presser.

Speaker 1 That's one of the reasons that Liverpool identified him as, you know, he's got an incredible reading of the game off the ball. He's incredible at

Speaker 1 robbing the ball in the final third and coughing up those big chances. And obviously that's not going to come yet.

Speaker 1 He's still learning the pressing triggers and the way they move as a team.

Speaker 1 And creatively, he's still going to, you know, he's learning what sort of runs he needs to be looking for. And that's going to take 10, 15 games.
It might take half a season.

Speaker 14 And the key is going to be can he keep enough people on side that that he he gets that half a season uh you know can he can he keep ticking over with with with goals and it says can he produce enough moments that are going to make people think yeah this guy's worth worth investing in remember as well max that um liverpool have played bournemouth and newcastle probably the highest physicality of of of opponents in terms of of of pressing as well i mean newcastle i mean there was a high level of physicality last night full stop but more so newcastle and you know bournemouth and i know there's lost players.

Speaker 14 I remember doing Bournemouth, Newcastle against Bournemouth last season, St. James's Park.
I have never seen a performance like it from Bournemouth. And that is just,

Speaker 14 there's not often a team will outphysical Newcastle.

Speaker 14 So I think that you've got to take that into account, you know, sort of for Viets, that perhaps there were a baptism of fire those first two games of the season.

Speaker 15 On Newcastle, John, I mean, it is, we're obviously just waiting for the window to close, right?

Speaker 15 And either Isaac then has to send a sort of apology going, oh, I didn't mean any of this I don't know what you're talking about and he scores a goal and everyone's happy or they or they let him go for not 150 million but 110 they're trying to get Strand Larson who I think is a good centre forward I mean I don't think he's Alexander Isaac but very hard to find another one of those but what do you think they should do because

Speaker 15 it's an interesting situation I'm I'd be minded to keep him because then he will it's a World Cup year Sweden presumably I mean yeah you know like they'll be in the World Cup they could do they've got a great set of players

Speaker 5 he has to play right let's start with Stran Larson. Strand Larson's more your Duncan Ferguson than your Alan Shearer, isn't he?

Speaker 5 As a player, he's a pretty canny forward, and I think he's improved a lot for Wolves, but that's a pretty underwhelming replacement for a player like Alexander Isak, you'd have to say.

Speaker 5 I'm not sure that's going to calm the Waters amongst fangs.

Speaker 5 Yeah, I mean, my memory of this type of rapprochement that may well happen is that picture of Wayne Rooney and Alex Ferguson when they'd had that big row?

Speaker 5 And Rooney signs a new contract, and there's this photo at the training ground. Ferguson, shit-eating grin on face, Rooney, look of,

Speaker 5 oh, God, like, you know, I've been totally done here, and, you know, I've been outmaneuvered, and this is sort of wan smile. And that, I suspect, is what may await Alexander Isaac.

Speaker 5 There's all types of manoeuvres going on, and there will be more of them. There'll be twists

Speaker 5 before we get there. But as we've said from the very start, Liverpool coffer up the money.
And Newcastle statement pretty much suggested this. You know, the conditions are met.

Speaker 5 The conditions are, if the money is met.

Speaker 5 That's the deal, right? If they offer 150 million, the deal will be done tomorrow. They aren't going to offer that just yet, but they might end up doing so.
But you've got this situation where,

Speaker 5 and actually,

Speaker 5 let's count the cost of last night's performance. Joe Linton, that looks a nasty thigh injury or groin injury.

Speaker 15 Tenale as well, Fabian Cher, yeah.

Speaker 5 Tenale's shoulder, yeah. That didn't look good.
That looked a bit like Martin Odegaard's injury at the weekend.

Speaker 5 You know, one of those where they try and soldier on and eventually he's just got an arm hanging limply. That didn't look good.
It's a thin squad.

Speaker 5 It's a good first 11, especially with Isak in the team. And they need to start.
Newcastle needs to get the skates on and bring in players. And it's funny, you know,

Speaker 5 the pattern of the summer is repeated by they make a move for strand larsen it's turned down which is what happens in newcastle all summer yeah and you know you

Speaker 5 you've got you and whisser you know who's been in exile longer than the gay traitor you know it's it's it's taken a long time it it's just not happening for them and time is running out and Newcastle and Eddie Howe have shown what lies within that squad in that performance.

Speaker 5 I thought they were absolutely fantastic. But the fans will want players to come in and further that team.

Speaker 5 They've got to play Champions League football with that list of walking, rooting, wounded already. It's incredible.

Speaker 15 Let's talk about ref cam. Mike said it's like Simon Hooper's own uncut gems, which I enjoyed.

Speaker 15 Matt said it's like when cat bores upload footage of their cat cam of tiddles running around the neighborhood. The ref cam for the Gravenbirch goal was quite good, but

Speaker 15 I mean, it's just, there's a reason why you have steady cams. You know, it's a reason why they create those cams that are so balanced because it's just losing exhausting.

Speaker 14 Honestly, yeah, you only appreciate steady cam and what the cameramen have to hold. Maybe the ref could have one of those on.

Speaker 14 He could batter a few while he's at it as well with that big contraption on. But yeah, it made you feel a little bit sick.
It's quite good.

Speaker 14 I quite liked the,

Speaker 14 I think we've seen something as well where a player had it on and just seen how fast everything is and for a referee, how the players sort of get in your face, even with other not supposed to.

Speaker 14 I quite liked that little touch

Speaker 14 of seeing that. And also, when they have to

Speaker 14 talk out, I think it was in the Women's World Cup when the referees first had to do that, where you heard the voice.

Speaker 14 And it's difficult if you're not English-speaking, but obviously, our refs don't have that excuse, but you've got to rely on technology. But yeah, I quite like that.

Speaker 15 Actually, Simon Hooper's Lucy, the first that isn't northern.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's not as northern as the others.

Speaker 15 Maybe he is, but like he's the first one.

Speaker 5 He's from Wiltshire, I think.

Speaker 15 He's from Wiltshire, yeah, exactly. But Swindon, he's from Swindon, yeah, so it's not allowed.
It's a southern or a west country ref. I'm not having that.

Speaker 1 I want them all to be like, oh, well, that was a free kick up there, lad.

Speaker 5 I was going to say the ref cam reminded me of two things. One was the 1980s, 1990s TV programme Nightmare.

Speaker 15 Yes, oh, yeah, yeah, walk forward.

Speaker 1 Walk forward.

Speaker 1 Just the sort of...

Speaker 5 And also,

Speaker 5 again, back to the 90s, I've not really played computer games since then, like Doom and Wolfenstein, that sort of...

Speaker 15 The eye of the beholder, Beholder.

Speaker 5 Yeah, front-facing.

Speaker 1 So the ref has to go,

Speaker 15 I can pick up a gold bar or a scroll. And Howard Webb's going, pick up the scroll.

Speaker 5 Wave yellow card at Bruno Kumarich.

Speaker 15 But that makes the players look like they're in a computer game. I don't know what you thought of it, Johnny.

Speaker 1 It was missing a few. a few elements, I thought.

Speaker 1 You'd expect the whole game to be

Speaker 1 to be viewed through like the red-tinted filter. Obviously, that's one feature that can happen.
Of course, the weird blind spot, the inability to see various incidents in the...

Speaker 1 And the other thing is, if you are going down this route of like, you know, first-person reality, don't turn it off.

Speaker 1 You know, take it, leave it on when he goes back to the showers, when he goes back to, gets back in his car, drives back down to, you know,

Speaker 15 Simon Hooper eating a Reddy Mitch, eating a Charlie Biggums.

Speaker 5 He drives to collect his bung from the red cartel, you know, in a.

Speaker 1 You know, collecting the excrement from his mailbox.

Speaker 15 Yeah, I like the idea of, yes, not being able joel linton's got the cloak of invisibility on you just can't see him

Speaker 15 it's not a yellow card for him anyway uh it was a brilliant game so look thank you to everyone who played in it for making it brilliant and that'll do uh for part one

Speaker 15 uh part two we'll talk about max dam and uh uh yeah the the ethics of a 15 year old playing in the premier league

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Speaker 15 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So, Thursday, the 11th of September, we are playing the Troxy in London.
Jonathan Wilson, Nikki Bandini, Johnny Lou, you'll be there.

Speaker 15 I met you at the bus stop, John. I think I've hood-winked you into coming along to

Speaker 15 an exciting cameo. Oh, yeah, yeah, there's a good outfit for you.
Uh, tickets can be purchased at theguardian.com/slash football weekly live.

Speaker 15 Still, a few tickets left, uh, live streaming around the world. So, all of you, please come.
You can watch it uh, on catch-up for a week or something like that.

Speaker 15 And the link is posted on the pod description. It'll be all over our Instagram, our blue sky, and our TikTok, which I hear is doing great things.
Lucy, you wanted to talk about Max Dauman.

Speaker 15 Stuart said, should a 15-year-old really be playing senior men's football, especially in a pressurized environment such as the Premier League? And it is so easy, Lucy, to be like, wow, this guy's 15.

Speaker 15 Look how good he is. And those are all legitimate feelings, aren't they? Look, this guy is so exciting.
But there is another side to this argument, I guess.

Speaker 14 It's the best thing but obviously the and also the worst thing for a lot of the staff at teams and at clubs where at you know 15 or an under 18 year old because basically safeguarding wise he's still a child until he's 18 and I know he might look behave play like an adult football is now

Speaker 14 in terms of sport the the the a leader in safeguarding issues after the the issues in the past they're now very very good in terms of um checks etc

Speaker 14 and one thing that they have to do is safeguard young players in an adult environment so it's all about parental consent so Max Down's parents will have to consent that he can travel so he will get changed in his own changing room he will have a chaperone he will he will not be left alone with just senior players he will the people that chaperone him will have DBS checks disclosure and barring service checks

Speaker 14 that you know you if you're working with children in a spot environment that that's the the criminal record check that you have to have and I would suspect a chaperone will travel to a weigh game specifically with him to look after to look after him risk assessments for every trip safeguarding briefings given to senior staff so you can imagine I'm going on but you can imagine what senior staff feel like they're just saying like Michael Arteta would be like well he's one of my players I just just want him to just want him to they're in training to play but there's so much more that goes on and it's someone's job to ensure that this child is is safeguarded and I know it sounds and it's difficult isn't it because the young player just wants to be to fit in the last thing you want to do as a young player in a in a in a in a changing room of of uh first first team pros is to stand out you want to just fit in and then a lot of them will change their behavior to to fit in but you that's just not possible and that's even before i get into his education so he's going into year 11 now so he will have an arsenal of very very good as a lot of of clubs is that he will i would suspect be on a full-time training program which means that he may go i i don't know for for a fact because they probably don't release it but he may go to the partner school of arsenal where his timetable is changed so that it he can go into training um but that's you've got double game double games monday morning i'm missing physics yeah but he will but now he's in the first team that first team training changes quite a lot very very quickly as well you know it might be oh we need him in we need him in but the school's like and the the academy staff education staff are like well hang on a minute he's he needs to be in school because he's doing his gcses etc so that has to all be incorporated and it's it's very very difficult having been there myself as academy staff to just make sure that he just is not not forgotten about but oh he's not here he's not in his education session and so this is because he's under 16 now when he comes in as a scholar you know by the law he still has to do two years of education.

Speaker 14 When he comes in at 16, so this is next season, he still has to do an education program. And what that will be is that it's called the SEP, it's a sporting excellence professional.

Speaker 14 It's an apprenticeship. It's like being an electrician or a plumber.
You are assessed around your ability as a footballer and

Speaker 14 the lifestyle and,

Speaker 14 you know, psychological skills around that. Due Bellingham did it.
I think he got his apprenticeship. And it's quite, you know, it's like any other apprenticeship.
It's not easy.

Speaker 14 And you have an endpoint assessment. So there's all sorts going on.

Speaker 14 Plus, this kid, all he wants to do is be a footballer and the parents need to not get carried away because all they want to be a footballer. He's not signed a pro yet.

Speaker 14 You know, it is a very complex situation.

Speaker 15 And actually, Johnny, there's something interesting about,

Speaker 15 I looked at the 20 youngest, you know, players to make a Premier League debut.

Speaker 15 Like, there's no guarantees for this guy, right? So it must be really hard to kind of balance where you put, look, the world's at your feet. You could be great.
Go out there.

Speaker 15 but also somebody somewhere saying, like, carry, like, don't, you've not made it yet because he's 15 and he's played one game, you know.

Speaker 1 The aggravating factor here, I guess, is that it's Arsenal and he is that good.

Speaker 1 You know, if you look at that list, you know, James Vaughan could probably walk down the street unharassed, you know, say with Ben Woodburn or whatever.

Speaker 1 But this guy, he has burst on the scene in such a

Speaker 1 spectacular fashion. And it is Arsenal.
It is one of the biggest clubs in the world. And the fact is,

Speaker 1 he will be famous overnight. And I think that that is the part of celebrity that I don't think anyone can truly prepare you for.
You know,

Speaker 1 you can sit them down and give them training and give them coaching and

Speaker 1 try and tell them what it's going to be like. But it is frankly

Speaker 1 quite disorienting to be able, you know, to be walking down the street and basically have that part of you, that anonymity stripped away almost overnight.

Speaker 1 And that's the part that he's not going to be prepared for. And the fact that Arsenal are also,

Speaker 1 as well as as a footballer, they're a commercial business. This guy is going to be fantastic for the numbers.

Speaker 1 How much content

Speaker 1 are they going to be getting out of this guy?

Speaker 1 What sort of commitments are they going to be going to be making him do in the future in terms of media?

Speaker 1 I think there's a slight tension there because obviously, you know, you're looking after him, you want to safeguard him, you want him to be focused and do his best on the pitch.

Speaker 1 But Arsenal is also a commercial organization that is trying to to to garner new fans and subscribers and likes and all of that stuff. Endowment is an incredibly potent asset from that point of view.

Speaker 1 And I think balancing or harnessing those two obviously quite countervailing forces that I think is the tension that I think is going to determine how a lot of young players in the future develop.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 15 And given your experience at Leeds, Lucy, who wins? I don't know if that's the right question. But like, how many people there have a long-term

Speaker 14 caring thought for a player because obviously it's so football is so short-term is right we're as guilty of ever you know we've just half written off florian verts 10 minutes ago but you know look i don't think we did but you take my point like it's so immediate you want this now how many people are a club going like you're 15 and actually we're trying to develop a good happy humor until they're 80 you know no one's thinking that are they you sort of get the buy-in from first team staff but like you say say their priorities are completely different you know for for mikel artetra it's about about winning so he will let others deal with you know the the the practicalities of dowman but the academy staff you know like johnny's just said you know it doesn't necessarily mean that he is going to be player hopefully he is he plays till he's 35 and he has a successful career but that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what's going to happen so it's very very difficult they need to have tunnel vision young footballers to make it but you also need to understand that all the other things around it-the education, you know, the life skills of player, the player care stuff-is

Speaker 14 shows what a learner you are. So, if a player's, I used to say to players, I know exactly how you play just from how you behave in my classroom

Speaker 14 when I used to teach them before I was head of education. And because you cannot change

Speaker 14 your characteristics, you know, if you're a little bit lazy or you let others do stuff, then that's what you would be like on a pitch.

Speaker 14 But there are academy staff who will constantly worry and make sure that they're aware of how many hours is about, whether he's getting changed on his own, whether, you know, the hotel room, if there's another young under 18 in the squad, he'll probably room with the other under 18.

Speaker 14 That's how it works. Just to, you know, because obviously you've got to make him feel comfortable as well.

Speaker 14 And it's then, I think what it then shows you is, I mean, Arsenal's an excellent academy, how he has been brought through the system and how the parents work with and it's it's a team effort how the parents work with the schools that work with the kid and it's all it all ends with this flourish hopefully into the first team and so you have got a system that's working magically there's just some people where it it means a little bit more to make sure it's done in a correct way players coming through young they have

Speaker 5 a lot to negotiate i mean one of the players lucy may know i mean archie gray i mean he was one of those players and he when uh Leeds got promoted from the championship a couple of seasons ago, he was having to change away from his teammates.

Speaker 5 He came into the Premier League last season and was something approaching an instant hit, but now he's having to sit on the bench and watch the new Tottenham take place.

Speaker 5 Because when you're a young player, there's oscillations, aren't there? You don't become an instant hit. Not everyone is Wayne Rooney, who I see at 16 years, 297 days old, is only the 20th youngest.

Speaker 5 So it's almost like they waited for Wayne. And it's not like with Wayne, Wayne Rooney,

Speaker 5 it isn't going to be like, I mean, the famous quote from Rooney is: you know, when he joins the Everton First team and he starts playing with them,

Speaker 5 he turns around and he just goes, These are shite

Speaker 5 because he realizes that he's much better than every one of those players. That isn't going to be the case for anyone, even someone as talented as Max Dahlman.

Speaker 5 And it is, and you actually look at that list of the top 20,

Speaker 5 It's somewhat ill-fated for quite a lot of them.

Speaker 5 You know, you've got that Arsenal, Jack Wilshire.

Speaker 5 I mean, the lead time for Jack Wilshire, which, you know, 15 years ago or so, and when he arrived, he almost arrived fully fun, but we'd heard about him a long time.

Speaker 5 And he was a great player for a few years, and it didn't happen. And injuries set in, and you wonder if managers overplayed him.
And you've got to be so careful with young talent.

Speaker 5 I mean, let's not say this is going to happen, but Saka limping off with another muscle injury, you start to wonder how

Speaker 5 it's such a delicate balance for clubs when they've got these players. And

Speaker 5 Liverpool, young Rio that scored that goal. I mean,

Speaker 5 RNA Slot has this temptation to play this guy because he can do that to win matches. But you've got to play his long-term development to think of.

Speaker 5 And Wayne Rooney, we think of as a player who burned brightly and almost burned out, but he lasted a lot longer. I mean, James Milner is probably like 25th on the list or something.

Speaker 5 James Milner is almost unique from playing from 16 through to, he's nearly 40 now.

Speaker 14 Yeah, James Milner actually was one of...

Speaker 14 I think I'm sure I've said this and bored everybody, was one of my lads when he first, so he was in school with me and then was in the first team straight away.

Speaker 14 But the thing about him, and this is my point I'm going to make about Darwin, it's the reaction now is when he goes back and plays in the 21s, right? So how does he cope with

Speaker 14 in and out of the first team?

Speaker 14 Because his peers will be like, wow, you know, he's, you know, and the lads who are under 18, the lads who are under 19, 20, 21 will be like, jealous because he's just, you know, gone on the top of them and played.

Speaker 14 So it's a very, very competitive environment. Very, everything's competitive.
What they wear, the trainers they've got, the girlfriend, everything's competitive.

Speaker 14 So it's how he then copes with going back. He's not going to stay in the first team now.

Speaker 14 That is not going to happen.

Speaker 14 You know, like for reasons John said, you know, the sort of physical aspects and the fact that you've got sort of tens of millions of players, pounds of players in front of you.

Speaker 14 So it's how the player then reacts to going back down as they would describe it. And James Milner was one of the most perfect ones of that in terms of his attitude.

Speaker 14 It was the best attitude I've ever seen. Apart from probably Lewis Cook, those two are the best attitudes I've ever seen in a player in terms of, you know, being an adult before the time.

Speaker 5 Is Ethan Wanieri now the elder state? Is he like some you know looking yeah just look at you look like Abraham Lincoln

Speaker 1 he's hanging on to his career if anything.

Speaker 5 Lewis Skelly this positive veteran yes.

Speaker 15 The only thing I was gonna say and you will laugh at this because obviously the the level is so ridiculously tiny but I do think about the fact that you know i i got soccer m out of nowhere and obviously no one had a clue who i was and when i got it virtually still nobody knew but like occasionally people would yell you'll never be loved or you mug out of a van but i was i think i'm so lucky that i never got any level you know my zed list lowercase zed list level of fame was when i was 28 29 you know like i was sort of already i had my friends and i had my life and i knew all that stuff i think even if at 15 it must be unbelievable even at like early 20s from all footballers it must be incredibly difficult and so and obviously that you're talking you know x i understand before anyone else exponential levels of you know it you know i can leave my house it's okay the two maxes dowman and rushton that's what they're all saying out on the street isn't it

Speaker 1 yeah you're right

Speaker 15 you are right anyway um before we end part two some very sad news chesterfield co-owner phil kirk has died at the age of 59 um the club announced in march he'd been diagnosed with cancer he'd recently entered palliative care uh in a statement the club said they were confirming news with great sadness their thoughts are with uh phil's family and friends and i spoke to alan biggs who's a chesterfield fan yesterday and works does Sheffield Wednesday United for talk sport, amongst others?

Speaker 15 The message he said was, you know, Phil Kirk was not only just a great guy, but a brilliant owner of a football club. And we spend so much time talking about owners that aren't brilliant.

Speaker 15 And he was brilliant. And it's incredibly sad news.
And also yesterday, Jerry Harrison, commentator on ITV in the 80s and the 90s. He did so much Anglia sport, like so much Norwich.

Speaker 15 I heard him all the time. And he did, John, have a really,

Speaker 15 he had such a distinctive voice. And, you know,

Speaker 15 I loved him as a commentator.

Speaker 5 Yeah, he's one of those voices that I think from 86 World Cup or 82, he's one of those voices that crops up.

Speaker 5 And he's not familiar to those within the Northwest that we had Martin Tyler, actually, back in those days.

Speaker 5 But on Phil Kirk, I did a piece on Chesterfield 18 months ago or so when they're in the FA Cup, and the fans spoke about him very warmly.

Speaker 5 A guy at the F for the Financial Times called the New King of the North Sea because of his business interests lay in oil, which I thought was a

Speaker 5 very nice

Speaker 5 title to have, I would have thought. Which showed

Speaker 5 a wealthy man who put it back into the club that he loved. And

Speaker 5 those are the sort of owners that we approve of. Is that right?

Speaker 15 I mean, yeah, well, we're desperate for every club to have that on you, really. So, incredibly sad news.

Speaker 15 We'll be back in a minute.

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Speaker 15 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So we thought, look, we've got a bit of time.
We have Leeds, Man United, and Spurs fans on this pod. We started with Leeds.

Speaker 15 I think, I mean, obviously, the $5 Arsenal. Everyone just said, look, don't worry about it.
Is that the way you take a performance like that? Because you were brilliant against Everton.

Speaker 15 Ellen Road would be so key. Like, do you come three points is great from two games, right?

Speaker 14 I think that, you know, the performance against Everton was good, but I think Everton were really, really poor.

Speaker 14 I think they were sort of choking cheese this week at home at Hill Dickinson Stadium but yeah leads were happy three points is so important as early as possible when you're when you're a promoted side and I think there was probably

Speaker 14 no real positive thoughts going down to Arsenal that that

Speaker 14 you know that a point would be gained or three points but My only worry, and I think that obviously I collect all my leads information from my dog walk and with the people that we meet.

Speaker 14 I think the worry is

Speaker 14 that they've they I think they've been quite sensible in the transfer market in that they are bought physical and big players because you look at Tanaka who was fantastic in the championship and he looked lightweight against Arsenal.

Speaker 14 You know it looked like Jekyll Rice looked like a dad playing with football with his kids. You know, he just was that sort of dominant over Gruer.

Speaker 15 Which is interesting because in your mind, the championship is perhaps more physical.

Speaker 14 I mean, you know, and again, you're playing against Arsenal, who are, you know, most of them are Man Mountains, and I think that was a lesson. But all the players with physicality were on the bench.

Speaker 14 So the new site, so Longstaff was on the bench, Metro was on the bench, there was a centre-half Beall.

Speaker 14 I think if you're going to buy these players, then that sort of physicality needs to be on the pitch against a team like Arsenal because, you know, at times they would, you know, Gruev and Tanaka were swatted off the ball by Arsenal.

Speaker 14 But I think you've just, just the difference, you're so used to winning in the championship, it's how quickly everybody gets used to losing and then

Speaker 14 responding to a loss. And that is so crucial in the Premier League.

Speaker 14 You get can get battered five, but you've got to come back the next week and you've got to, you've, you've got to forget that and start again. And now next week for Leeds is Newcastle.

Speaker 14 Now, Newcastle, Leeds fans will have been watching last night going, brilliant. Anthony Gordon, injured to Joel Linton, you know, these players that

Speaker 14 very very much affect the way that Newcastle play. So it's it's about that.
It's about and I know it's a it's a

Speaker 14 it's something that you say each game at a time, but it's just forgetting what's and even if you win right, you've still got to then go and perform the week after or midweek.

Speaker 14 And they play in Sheffield Wednesday, I think, tonight, so there'll be much change. But I think that it's how you get used to losing more than you win

Speaker 14 and how you perform in the Premier League.

Speaker 15 John, Manchester United, are there any are there green shoots?

Speaker 5 Well, I was at the fun game for the Guardian on Sunday. Green shoots for the first 20 minutes and then 70 minutes of constipated, turgid.

Speaker 5 You can insert your own descriptions here. It just felt like last season.
I mean, it just, you know.

Speaker 5 Where are the green shoots? I mean, you know, maybe in a player like Dorgu, you're seeing a bit more maturity, a bit more, you know, he's a bit more used to the league.

Speaker 14 Mason Mount, John? Mr.

Speaker 5 Mount. Mason Mount's playing a little bit better.
Yeah, I agree with that, that Lucy.

Speaker 5 Mason Mount's a player who listens to what his manager says, follows instructions to the letter. Obviously, he has a bit of skill.

Speaker 5 And I think playing that sort of withdrawn number nine roles is fairly thankless.

Speaker 5 And Buemo did not have a good time against the wardrobe Calvin Bassey, who is like lightning quick as well, by the way. Sesco came on.
So I was really interested to see Sesco.

Speaker 5 And Sesco came on, and within two seconds, Joachim Anderson is almost straight through him. Like, welcome to the Premier League, mate.
And

Speaker 5 I think there was one point where Sesco showed a good touch for a big man. It was a lovely little touchdown around his side.
I was sat with Barney. We're like, ooh, hello, you know, he's got that.

Speaker 5 But that was it. He was just completely climbed all over by Fulham.

Speaker 5 Cunha showed

Speaker 5 he is, again,

Speaker 5 he's a decorating player. He's not a dominant player.
And

Speaker 5 it's Amarim

Speaker 5 who's got to front all this.

Speaker 1 He

Speaker 5 already has a slightly panicked, defensive tone to himself. I think the decision to give him the job in November is probably fatal for his Manchester United's legacy because

Speaker 5 if they'd have waited and put in another caretaker and written off the season,

Speaker 5 then we might have had new shoots, new beginnings. There's a certain staleness, a sterility.

Speaker 5 And oh, God, I'm talking about how Manchester United are absolutely shining.

Speaker 15 No, no, it's comforting. It's comforting.

Speaker 14 I'm doing them tomorrow night at Groomsby for ITV, so looking forward to a trip to Groomsby.

Speaker 14 Just a little note:

Speaker 14 just a couple of

Speaker 14 one major tactical thing that I've noticed this season is, and Liverpool did it last night, is the wide players are closing down centre-backs.

Speaker 14 And I know this is a little bit geeky, but that a few teams have done it already. So they're basically saying, we don't want you through centre.
So Salah's coming in and closing down.

Speaker 14 Man United did it as well, making sure that they close the centre-backs and just allowing the width, allowing the attacking teams to have the width, but not through the centre.

Speaker 14 And it's weird how it's like, and also long throws as well. It's like they've all had a conference in summer and go, right, should we try it? Yeah, let's all try it.

Speaker 14 Let's have a little bit of a go with long throws and let's have a little bit go with changing the way our wide players press.

Speaker 5 I meant to say, Lucy, yeah,

Speaker 5 Craven Cottage by the end of it was just a series of set pieces and long throws, corners,

Speaker 5 and it's

Speaker 5 we're in the NFL now.

Speaker 5 That's what it felt like.

Speaker 5 It is a series of set routines.

Speaker 15 Johnny Spurs,

Speaker 15 we know

Speaker 15 how much you were an acolyte for Anne's Potter Cogli, but you have to move with the times. Thomas Frank is in.

Speaker 15 How are you feeling?

Speaker 1 He started very well, hasn't he?

Speaker 1 I think, you know, not just in terms of

Speaker 1 what he said and how he's conducted himself and how he's carried himself, but

Speaker 1 the results on the pitch have been

Speaker 1 they're clearly responding to him. You know, they've clearly had a decent preseason.

Speaker 1 The parts are all working together. And, you know,

Speaker 1 there has obviously been a lot of discourse about the lack of transfer business, about the SA saga. And I do think

Speaker 1 they still lack a lot of creativity in the middle. That is their Achilles heel at the moment.

Speaker 1 They have a lot of honest runners in the middle of the pitch, guys like Benton Coor and Saar, who were brilliant against Manchester City.

Speaker 1 And Paolinho, I think, you know, you would put in that category, but not players who can...

Speaker 1 unlock a defence that's what they're going to need against i guess the the the bottom half teams that they're they're they're going to to need to beat

Speaker 1 later in the campaign. Again, City, yeah, they were fantastic.

Speaker 1 I think one of the legacies of the Posta Koglu era is that they don't fear these kind of games anymore, that they go to City and they go to Liverpool and United and

Speaker 1 they might get a beating, but they actually don't feel inferior. They have a go.

Speaker 1 I think

Speaker 1 that is a big shift. And, you know, we've seen, I think, quite a lot of promise.

Speaker 1 I don't think Spurs are quite good enough to challenge for top five on what we've seen so far without a couple of signings.

Speaker 1 I think losing Madison in the summer has been a big loss for them because he's one of the players who can unlock a defense. Kulasevsky, obviously, he's struggling with injury.

Speaker 1 So I think they do still need that player. I'm not...

Speaker 1 really, you know, I'm not that excited by Savinho. I don't think, I think the last thing Spurs needs is another winger who can't score.

Speaker 1 You know, they're full of, you know, they've got guys like Odeburst and Matisse Tell. And I like Brennan Johnson, but I don't...

Speaker 15 I mean, he does score, Brennan Johnson.

Speaker 1 He does score. I like him.
Well, he does score, but what Brennan Johnson does is he pops up at the back post after a lung-busting run to score a tap in. And

Speaker 1 I know that there's a skill to that, to being in the right place and having the engine and the awareness to do that. But I wouldn't...

Speaker 1 I don't put that in the, I put that in the category of a system goal rather than a Brennan Johnson goal.

Speaker 1 I still don't, again, I think in more static games and most most of the Premier League campaign is

Speaker 1 more static games against teams that I think I go to sit back a little bit more.

Speaker 1 I still don't think he has the craft to unlock those games.

Speaker 15 On Transfers, Everton have confirmed Tyler Dibbling, who Spurs were rumored to and is that kind of an unlocker, isn't he? 35 million plus five and add-ons. So that's quite a fun.

Speaker 15 They play and die, Grealish Dibbling behind Barry.

Speaker 5 That's going to be really exciting, isn't it? But so you play them behind Barry.

Speaker 1 Teono Barry. Tiono Barry, we should make clear.
Yeah, well, Barry.

Speaker 13 It's just Barry to Archie.

Speaker 5 Haven't Everton done this before when they signed three number tens one summer?

Speaker 1 Sigurdson, Rooney, Rooney. Davy Classen.

Speaker 5 Debbie Classen, yeah. Wow, yeah.
Check out Debbie Classen's hair these days.

Speaker 5 I was saying that.

Speaker 5 They've done this before. Are Everton just doing old Everton now? Is that what...

Speaker 5 But yeah, I mean, that is exciting. Dibbling, I saw, was that rare spark in Southampton last season? He's one of those players that is direct in his running, goes straight into the heart of defences.

Speaker 5 I think there's a bit of game intelligence there as well.

Speaker 14 Can you imagine, John, as well, how buzzing he'll be to train with Jack Grealish every day as a young player?

Speaker 14 That'll have had a massive effect on him, I would suspect, going to Everton.

Speaker 5 Do you know what? There is a lot of the young Jack Grealish about him, isn't there? You know, because he's a physical specimen as well,

Speaker 5 like Jack was. And Everton, exciting, happy, cheery.

Speaker 15 Yeah, it'll never last.

Speaker 15 I'm just I'm just yeah yeah come on now yesterday we were talking about well semi-hero got in touch saying James Trafford being described as not the biggest for a goalkeeper is the pod setting the bar high pressure on microscopic 6'5 Donnarumma is they if they sign him because James Trafford is six foot six this blew my this blew my mind that James Trafford is taller than Jan Luigi Donnarumma I just won't have it even if they stood next to each other you know I mean Sam Danning did say he was a late developer I don't know if he was six foot yesterday and now he's six foot six

Speaker 15 but i can't believe he's six foot six yeah he's wiry for a sick can you be wiry and six foot six i i don't know sort of blow over in a gale because he looks tiny you know anyway anyway we'll see what happens with the with uh donarumba and city uh apparently chelsea have agreed a deal to loan nicholas jackson to buy in munich Where's Aaron Ramsey playing, Barry?

Speaker 15 This might be the most where is he now Barry piece of news. Any of you know who Aaron Ramsey is playing for?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 15 He is playing for Pumas in the Liga MX in Mexico. Oh.
Been there two months and he made his debut yesterday.

Speaker 5 That's not Ed Mallion's team, is it?

Speaker 15 Is that Ed Mallion's team? I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 15 Tell the listeners who that is.

Speaker 5 Ed Mallion, former journalist, former colleague of Jonathan's, actually,

Speaker 5 is now the owner of or co-owner of a Liga MX club.

Speaker 15 Puerataro FC is he is the owner of, apparently. Good work, producer Joel.
Jim says, do you think Gateshead fans decided to start their 350 mile return trip at half-time?

Speaker 15 Yeah, Gateshead were 3-0 down at Yeoville at half-time. You would think, shall we? And then they scored four in the second half, including one of the 98th minute.

Speaker 15 Moonlight Hanger says, with Torkey now starting their home games with a toddler driving a miniature car onto the pitch to deliver the match ball.

Speaker 15 When will IFab act to ensure this is mandatory for all future matches at every stadium? Closer look is he might be about eight or nine. I think getting a two-year-old, that is a risk.

Speaker 15 Could go anywhere. Certainly unlikely to go to the center circle.

Speaker 15 Anyway, that'll do for today.

Speaker 15 Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Johnny.

Speaker 1 Thanks. Thanks, Lucy.
Thank you.

Speaker 15 Thank you, John. Cheers, Max.
Pootbook Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.
We'll be back on Thursday.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.