England are European champions, again: Football Weekly

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Speaker 14 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. England, a European champions, again defeating Spain on penalties.
Hannah Hampton saves Chloe Kelly smashing at home. What a moment.

Speaker 14 England only led for four minutes in the knockouts or something like that, but it doesn't matter. They found a way.
They started well before Spain took over. Mariona Caldente's excellent header.

Speaker 14 It looked like England were running out of ideas, but Chloe Kelly again setting up Alessia Russo for an even better header. So many stories.

Speaker 14 Lucy Bronze's fractured tibia, Michelle Adjimang from ballgirl to European champion, Jess Carter's brilliant performance after what she's been through, and Serena Wiegman, five major tournament finals in a row, three European championships in a row.

Speaker 14 It's frankly ridiculous. It's come home again.
This is the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 14 On the panel today, he was in the gantry. Seb Hutchinson, welcome.

Speaker 7 Oh, hello, Max.

Speaker 14 He was in the stands. He was in the press box.
Nick Ames, hello.

Speaker 7 Hello, Max.

Speaker 14 And she was on her sofa with her four-year-old.

Speaker 7 Is he four now?

Speaker 7 Not quite. Almost.
Okay, nearly four-year-old.

Speaker 14 Holy faker others, welcome.

Speaker 4 Welcome. Nice to see you.

Speaker 14 Yeah, host of the excellent Guardian. Women's Football Weekly, of course.

Speaker 14 So there we go.

Speaker 14 England win 3-1 on penalties, back-to-back european championships for them the first time in england side men's or women's have won on foreign soil we should start with the shootout i guess we go to you seb because you had to talk about it i see robin cowan couldn't be bothered to show up you know there's the loyalty but outrageous what a what a moment hey when and she absolutely smashed how i like a penalty it's how to win a shootout isn't it people ask me before the game are you gonna write down what you're gonna say if they win are you gonna try and script the moment but but football just rarely plays out that way and you and you find yourself chasing your tail if you do that a lot of the time

Speaker 7 so

Speaker 7 it felt like the moment the shootout started i i did feel pretty confident about england i just felt these were the moments that they'd built up to in this tournament if it was going to be tight in the game they would be the team to get over the line And I think the shootout played out again how we thought it might.

Speaker 7 There were going to be penalty saves, there were going to be misses, but it felt special that Hannah Hampton was able to make a couple of saves,

Speaker 7 that big players were going to miss from both sides, and that Chloe Kelly would be there on the decisive moment. And it's amazing for somebody who's not started a game, it was just

Speaker 7 throughout the tournament, she was always there in the big moments. And we always say, obviously, it's a team game, but we like the individual stories, don't we? And there were so many in that game.

Speaker 14 Yeah. And Faye, I mean, of modern football parlance or sporting parlance, I find it hard to use the word clutch because I just think about a Renault Espace.

Speaker 14 But Chloe Kelly had such a clutch tournament, didn't she?

Speaker 4 Yeah, she was incredible.

Speaker 4 It's really hard when you're the player chosen to make the impact. There's A, the pressure of the impact, and B, that kind of, but why aren't I starting?

Speaker 4 And you saw that with Alessi Russo and Ella Toom back in 2022. And Chloe Kelly was the star of 2022 and yet has still had to effectively, and I don't think you can actually say this anymore in

Speaker 4 modern football, if you like, but she's had to be the

Speaker 4 spare part rather than the starter. You know, we're so used to saying that the starters are the most important.
We put so much emphasis, don't we, on the radio? What's the starting 11, etc.?

Speaker 4 And it's not, it's all about the finishers.

Speaker 4 And Chloe Kelly has this, she's a big game player, is how we always describe her, because she just knows exactly what to do in those moments, comes on, and she had, you know, more time coming on at halftime, obviously, because Lauren James had been injured.

Speaker 4 But I mean, what, what an incredible story from her for what she has achieved in her career. And she just is so brave and so fearless.

Speaker 4 And to go and step up and take that penalty knowing that she'd missed one before,

Speaker 4 Obviously, she did score the rebound, but you know, incredible.

Speaker 14 And that's interesting, Nick, isn't it? The way she plays the game. It's very different to Lauren James.
But obviously, Lauren James didn't look fully fit.

Speaker 14 And Kelly made a difference as soon as she came on. But they both play like they don't really care in very different ways, I think.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 there's a wonderful freedom to both of them. James, as you say,

Speaker 1 was struggling throughout the whole tournament.

Speaker 1 I think I don't, I mean, she scored that wonderful goal against Holm, but I don't think you can judge her really on her output over the last three weeks. That wouldn't be fair.

Speaker 1 She was laboring due to fitness. But yeah,

Speaker 1 when Chloe Kelly gets on that ball, gets on a pitch, you just feel that stuff is going to happen, really. I mean, it did within about two minutes of her coming on.

Speaker 1 I remember her skipping down the left and putting a crossing. I think it just got cleared away from it in front of goal.
But you just feel that

Speaker 1 magic is possible, you know. And

Speaker 1 when she stepped up to take that penalty with that bizarre skipping run-up yeah so dress up slightly dressed i've never seen before but i think it you know it must kind of occupy the goalkeeper that a bit um you know i i didn't have any doubt that she was gonna thunder it in but no there's um there's a real genuine joy i think to the way she plays um i think it was very very fitting that she showed up and scored that winning penalty it was just an absolutely magical moment yeah i mean i hope that inspires you know league two cloggers who smash penalties to do do that little hop.

Speaker 14 Julian Dix does that hop before welling one in. You mentioned Hannah Hampton as well, Seb, and there are so many players to pick out.
But, you know, first major tournament.

Speaker 14 And, you know, obviously what happened with Mary Oats being picked ahead of Mary Ops, chosen for her distribution. But she is, she was so good.
She sort of seems in those penalty shootouts.

Speaker 14 You know, you just sometimes think like Donna Ruma, I guess, like keepers that are just going to make saves. And she has that vibe about her.

Speaker 7 I mean, she's had an incredible football journey.

Speaker 7 And of course, all the stories are coming out now about her eye condition, about the idea that she was trouble at previous clubs, the idea that she's a player with a big mind, a big ego, all these sort of things that feed stories to help people create a picture of somebody negatively and positively.

Speaker 7 But for somebody who essentially is in her, you know, 25th year,

Speaker 7 she is the maturity

Speaker 7 was off the scale. She did two interviews with ITV recently, one before the tournament and one during the tournament.

Speaker 7 And before the tournament, she did speak about the effect of the whole Mary Ep situation and feeling that supporters weren't behind her or felt that she shouldn't be in the team and that had got to her.

Speaker 7 She's a very honest person.

Speaker 7 And then during the tournament, she did another one where you could... you could just see in her that she felt more settled once the tournament had got underway.

Speaker 7 And she'd got it's i think for a goalkeepers it's getting your hands on the ball feeling busy and knowing that you know you're the last line really before that ball goes into the net and there's a lot of things might have gone wrong before it reaches you so i think that gives goalkeepers some comfort even though they it flags up and I know I saw that you know Bon Matte got player of the tournament which I always think is a slight reputational thing as well.

Speaker 7 I seriously think Hampton was in the running. When you look back at the competition, the saves she made at certain times, her distribution that created goals for england her

Speaker 7 her mose even gave when she she was down injured she had to stick something up her nose and and battle on and and the pictures and the images from this tournament there'll be so many of them i feel like for england this tournament condensed what you would see in many many tournaments across the years that you know that terry butcher look the players strapping themselves up the roars on penalties players going off injured staying staying on the pitch great goals coming from the depths comebacks teenagers teenagers taking their moment when you hadn't really seen them before we've seen it before in major tournaments but it was all condensed in one incredible situation and and to to to wrap it back up on hannah i think uh

Speaker 7 it also shows that that somebody can be in a position where mary urps was in and considered you know, a huge player for England.

Speaker 7 But that's what makes sport so great.

Speaker 14 In one or two moments, you can just just take that spotlight yourself yeah totally I mean it's a good moment interview after the game where they were you know she was talking about the penalty shootout she just lost count and she had to ask the fans if Chloe Kelly scores this do we do we win I like that you've had done all this homework you've got all this stuff written on your arm you're like what's the score again Johnny Lou wrote a piece for you saying this is you know perhaps England's greatest sporting heist in the sense that it's sort of ridiculous that that England have won this tournament given given the performance after the France game where where I thought they were appalling, and then given the comeback, and then given the Sweden game, the Italy game, you know, just so many moments you're like, you can't keep doing this.

Speaker 4 I think it's the mark of a champion, to be honest. I think, you know, it's really easy

Speaker 4 as we sit on our sofas or up in our press gantry or wherever we're watching these games. to think that on the pitch, you know, they're not doing their job properly or, wow, they're amazing.

Speaker 4 And there's so much more context to it than that. And this side have been through so much leading into the tournament, all the noise around them, and Lucy Bronze talked a lot about

Speaker 4 the noise, the negative noise around them. We kind of, particularly in this country, we want to bash people down when they've won a lot of the time.
So we were almost waiting for them to trip up,

Speaker 4 having had such a brilliant tournament in 2022, having got to the final of the World Cup in 2023.

Speaker 4 And that opening France game, they were awful. They were so sloppy.

Speaker 4 They weren't up to speed and it was a really difficult watch. And so, of course, that feeds straight into that narrative straight away.

Speaker 4 But what we've seen in this tournament is the team, the resilient teams are the ones that have gone the furthest.

Speaker 4 I actually thought it might end up being a Germany-England final because they just had that, you know, no matter what, let's get ourselves over the line. And I think it, you know,

Speaker 4 they won it so differently

Speaker 4 to 2022, I felt.

Speaker 4 They had to win it ugly in a way. They had to win it going through three games in 120 minutes and two penalty shootouts.
That's insane.

Speaker 4 And I think once you've kind of done that, you feel a little bit invincible.

Speaker 4 And, you know, they know that they don't have to go into a tournament in the best fitness, in the best, as long as they're a collective and they push through and they don't stop and they never give up, then it's possible that they could win it, which is exactly what they've gone on and done.

Speaker 14 And actually, if you're going to beat Spain, Nick, you need all of those qualities and you have to defend brilliantly, right? They did in this game.

Speaker 14 I thought they defended absolutely brilliantly, but almost all of it.

Speaker 1 They reclosed the spaces. They got into them.
They were aggressive. They were positioning you very astute.
And I want to say a word for Jess Carter. Carter, actually.

Speaker 1 We spoke a lot earlier in the week, a very important discussion about

Speaker 1 the awful situation she'd experienced earlier in the tournament.

Speaker 1 And I think a lot of people, including some people quite close to the camp who I spoke to, were quite surprised that she was brought back in yesterday.

Speaker 1 Not because of what had happened earlier in the week, but just because, you know, there wasn't an obvious necessity that she came back in. But she was fantastic.

Speaker 1 I thought she blocked, she headed, she harried. She stepped out quite bravely a few times to win stuff and closed those half spaces in front of the defence that, you know, Spain was thrive in.

Speaker 1 And I thought she was really, really key to what happened there.

Speaker 1 Lucy Bruns, I mean, we talk about her a lot, but you know, I was sat there after we came watching her limping heavily around.

Speaker 1 And we now know that she's gone through the tournament with, I think it was a fractured tibia.

Speaker 1 I think I'm right.

Speaker 14 That's basically a broken leg, right? That is playing a whole tournament with a broken leg.

Speaker 7 It's just ludicrous.

Speaker 1 It's crazy. And I mean, we all know that her middle name is tough.

Speaker 1 I think we can probably think of a few stronger epithets than that because

Speaker 1 I mean, amazing. So,

Speaker 1 but it was just such a disciplined mirguard effort and i think you know people will say

Speaker 1 the way spain play they were dominant for a lot of the game maybe they should have put it to bed they had a lot of a lot of little half chances rather than clear chances i would say but when a team that you're up against is like good a lot of the joy and the skill of it is in adapting and playing in a way that maybe you might not want to play ideally and making it work that way and england did it and wegman wegman did it and tactically i think they were spot on and and they exploited spain with the equalizer as well at a time when

Speaker 1 spain spain had been in total control i think for half an hour after they scored it was um

Speaker 1 it was it was pass pass pass but maybe they weren't turning the screw and maybe it was getting

Speaker 1 i i hesitate to say too easy that's a bit of a get out but it was it was looking like they were in very comfortable control and then they switched off that a little bit let england them play through the fairs.

Speaker 1 I think it was a move from a back that Hamilton started again, actually, two or three passes. And just the

Speaker 1 clinical ball from Kelly, lovely arcing header by Rousseau. Like the neck muscle was on that.
And just the way they took their chance when it came,

Speaker 1 having dug in and held the line so resolutely, it was fantastic.

Speaker 4 But going back to Jess Carter, Nick, what I found really, A, I was quite surprised to see her start.

Speaker 4 But if you listen to all the pundits, obviously, who who are coaches themselves or players, they all said she was exactly the right person for this game.

Speaker 4 And I thought there was not one moment where she lapsed in concentration.

Speaker 4 And the biggest problem that England had had, once Serena Wiegman had switched Alex Greenwood to left back and Jess to left centre half, the gap between them was always massive.

Speaker 4 And that was where teams were exploiting them. But Georgia Stanway played a much more defensive game against Spain.

Speaker 4 She wasn't doing her usual drive, you know, try and shoot from distance as much as possible. She was slotting in

Speaker 4 that space between the two, and it made a massive difference because Spain just couldn't then get through it.

Speaker 14 Look, England have won the Euros, and we'll talk about it a bit more in part two.

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Speaker 14 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. We're doing a live show on the 11th of September at the Troxy in London.

Speaker 14 Barry and I were looking at the tickets, you know, we went onto the Troxy website and either it's selling very well or it's not selling at all because we couldn't work out if grey meant sold or not.

Speaker 14 But we think it's selling well.

Speaker 14 So get your tickets before you'll be disappointed. Theguardian.com slash football weekly live.

Speaker 14 We've already had one ideas meeting, which given it's over a month away is more advanced than we normally are. And we would love to see you.
So yeah, theguardian.com/slash football weekly live.

Speaker 14 Seb, I mean, there are so many people we need to talk about. Do you know, we talk about the goal there, and it was one of the only times where Kiera Walsh got space because she was so mucked.

Speaker 14 And I still think she might be England's best player, even though she hasn't been mentioned sort of at all all tournament.

Speaker 14 She's so comfortable on the ball, her decision-making is so good, and it must be so frustrating when you're that player that Spain recognized you're the one to stop, and other teams have done it that you so rarely get the opportunity to have a ball with like

Speaker 14 a second of space and time.

Speaker 7 It's a situation she's been in for years for England from the moment people realize that she was the player that starts England's attacks from the midfield.

Speaker 7 And she's actually had a lot of criticism in this competition for her

Speaker 7 perceived ability, difficulty getting around the pitch, the physicality, people suggesting that the game's moved on a little bit for her.

Speaker 7 She's at a difficult time really, leaving Barcelona, going to Chelsea.

Speaker 7 People are questioning the moves, knowing that Spain players know her inside out, have trained with her, played with her, and putting her under pressure.

Speaker 7 And Faye mentioned Georgia Stanway doing more defensive role. That's a big part of it because England's midfield has had massive spaces in it for a lot of the tournament.

Speaker 7 Because Serena Wiegman, after the France game, she felt that there weren't enough runs from midfield.

Speaker 7 She addressed it in the Netherlands game, and it worked so well. You know, Ella Toon was able to make runs in behind that couldn't be tracked.

Speaker 7 But England did become a side who were slightly bypassing the midfield in many ways getting the ball forward quickly and the midfielders as far as the tournament was concerned was looking out of the picture for the praise but I thought as the game went on she she got stronger and this is the mentality of these England players it's it's almost as if they

Speaker 7 They have switched something on and they decide they know we've been here before we've won this competition we are winners and we're going to take this deep and we're going to make this difficult for you.

Speaker 7 And one telling moment, I think, was what I say, moments during extra time.

Speaker 7 Patriarch Guiharo is one of the best players in the world and really should be in the running for the Ballon d'Or, but she was getting very irritated. I was watching her.

Speaker 7 She was going into a bit of a mood, really, during the game, angry, scowled looks. And I think England would have noticed that.

Speaker 7 And there's mentalities in the English side that if they see an opposition player getting rattled, they're like, right, we're on this. We've got them.
We've got them.

Speaker 7 And there was a lot of that going on. And that's the moment I thought, oh, hold on, England have turned this a bit.

Speaker 7 But, you know, Spain made subs of their own, which worked and didn't work for them ultimately. But yeah,

Speaker 7 to bring around now to Kira, she is a unique player in English football. And that's part of it is that people look at her.
She's in the spotlight. She was a player of the final in 2022.

Speaker 7 And she is somebody that when she's gone, England will think, you you know, we miss a player like that.

Speaker 14 When Russo equalized Faye, I was slightly disappointed because I thought, oh, we're not going to get any Ajamang. You know, this is like, we need to be 1-0 down.

Speaker 14 A 1-0 down, I was like, okay, this is all set up perfectly for another last 10 minutes. She did come on.
I thought she played okay. She didn't have like the massive impact that she had

Speaker 14 in previous games, but it's an amazing story. Like, you could see like when she was, you know, dancing forward to pick up Young Prayer of the tournament, like how happy she was.

Speaker 14 Of course, he's happy, but

Speaker 14 what an impact for her in this tournament.

Speaker 4 Oh, I mean, a star is born, except she was born 19 years ago and lots of people have known her talent for quite a long time. She was the wild card pick, essentially, for Serena Wiegman.

Speaker 4 People weren't expecting her to have this rise this quickly. We've known about her talent for

Speaker 4 a while now, but she hasn't shone on a stage like this. And I think most of us didn't really expect her to get any minutes coming into the game, which again just shows what we know, doesn't it?

Speaker 4 Because Serena Wiegman knows when a player can come in and make the kind of impact that Michelle Adjumang was was able to make what I loved about it as well is what a popular player she is within the group and that the group she's clearly quite a humble character quite quiet, plays piano in her room, had her piano shipped over for the tournament

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 likes her own space. But the players all wanted her to take the accolades.

Speaker 4 After that Italy game, she was pushed forward by Alex Greenwood and and I'm trying to think who else Beth Mead I think it was pushing her towards the crowd to say no no no take these plaudits this is for you this is amazing and you could tell that actually she started to embrace it when we got into the final and yeah she had an okay game but she was there to cause a little bit of chaos which which she did I mean it would have been a remarkable story if she'd have then gone on and perhaps scored the winner as you know because we've seen what she's done in the tournament so far up till the final you know three goals in in four England caps i think uh you know she scored a goal every 33 minutes of the time she's been on the pitch that's a phenomenal kind of form but just almost watching her grow in the tournament like that that's something that an old person perhaps would say yeah but you know you see someone come of age don't you in a tournament like that and i feel like she has yeah i mean it does take some real confidence though to say Is there anything you want to bring?

Speaker 14 Actually,

Speaker 14 you couldn't just

Speaker 7 bring my piano. Is that all right?

Speaker 14 Like, if every player says, can I bring a piano?

Speaker 7 Aren't we totally fucked?

Speaker 7 Anyway, Nick.

Speaker 1 I just wanted to add very quickly on Adjumang.

Speaker 1 I was sat after the game in the front row of the test box.

Speaker 7 And

Speaker 1 as you guys will know, you're often right behind a lot of the players at Friends and family who were...

Speaker 1 all waiting behind for a good hour hour and a half of celebrating a lot of the players coming in into the stands to see their family i've i've handed lion hemp's dad a bottle of water so we all know who won the euro really.

Speaker 1 But the Adjumang family

Speaker 1 were just

Speaker 1 down to my left of me. And there was a lovely moment.
It was way after the end when she came in with her trophy and celebrated with them.

Speaker 1 And, like, I don't know who each individual was, whether it's brothers, cousins, there was obviously parents, everything, but the sheer joy and delight and just drinking it all in as she came in and showed it to them was just absolutely, it was an absolute picture anyway.

Speaker 1 It was just everything that winning a tournament, especially at the age and with a context that Faye has just talked about, it's everything that it should encapsulate.

Speaker 1 And this, you have to remember, is a player who, and this is probably a separate discussion or a later on discussion about making sure that

Speaker 1 the next generation get enough opportunities at big clubs and in the WSO. She's not played much football.

Speaker 1 She didn't even start many games at all for Brighton on loan last season, but she's come in had this incredible impact probably played a bit longer last night than would have been ideal for her and i think she got a bit of a rough deal from the referee from the referee fleppa as well yeah i agree with you who seemed to sort of thought oh this fairly tall girl is coming on we're going to pull her up for everything but she handled it superbly and just yeah the the sheer joy and celebration with the family at the end like how could she have expected to be in that position a year ago three months ago like three weeks ago.

Speaker 1 Just incredible.

Speaker 14 She does a very good big number nine. That can't be a foul ref face as well, you know, sort of laughing astonishment.

Speaker 14 But I thought, I thought she did get some, I thought Stephanie Brappa was a little bit sort of bought into the, without going all cliche, the Spanish are hurling themselves all over the place come the end of the game.

Speaker 14 Seb, is there anyone we've, I'm trying to think of players that we haven't really talked about, Lauren Hempelot or Leo Williamson or Alex Greenwood.

Speaker 14 So I think, you know, they've all won this thing, Grace Clinton, Lee Charles, they all deserve at least a mention, right?

Speaker 7 Yeah, yeah. Should i go through them quickly then really really quickly once you have a mention

Speaker 7 leo williamson i'll go back to one of the big blocks she made in the sweden game her long passing was excellent i think she was up there in the tournament maybe the leader by some margin for accurate long passes which when you look at the tactical framework was so key she had an injury issue but came back desperate to start in the final after her injury pass.

Speaker 7 I think Alex Drew and having to change positions, a player won her 100th cap during the competition as well.

Speaker 7 A player who's been part of all of these squads of England on this amazing run over every major tournament after 2013 of reaching a semi-final at least, which is extraordinary consistency.

Speaker 7 Her and Lucy Bronze. Georgia Stanway, along with Hemp, along with Greenwood and James, missing large parts of last season with injury.

Speaker 7 Obviously hearing that Lucy Bronze had an injury in the tournament, you think there's a walking wounded England team.

Speaker 7 Aggie Bieber-Jones, another young player who's impressed in recent months, hat-trick at Wembley before the tournament scored scored in this competition.

Speaker 7 But also, we go, we've said this about squads as well. When you have people who know they're not going to be involved, really, but are great to have in the camp.

Speaker 7 And I think, you know, Vibamoy and the Tissier, they were delighted. delighted to pick up medals.
I mean, I saw

Speaker 7 Vibemoy before the tournament, and I thought she wasn't going to make it just based off her

Speaker 7 expression.

Speaker 7 But obviously, what happened with Millie Bright pulling out gave her the chance to be in the squad ultimately and because it's a team game everybody has to play their part has to be in the picture you know ella toon coming in the second game as well as me morgan don't forget about esme morgan esme morgan exactly coming in in the semi-final starting a semi-final and not looking out of place whatsoever having not really expected to to be in the mix now i'm missing somebody grace clinton still a young midfielder who probably didn't get as many minutes as she would have have liked, likewise with Jess Park as well, but they're all part of this lioness's picture.

Speaker 7 Who am I missing? Come on.

Speaker 14 Beth Mead, did you give Mead a shout there?

Speaker 4 I mentioned that she pushed Michelle Adaman forward, but she was, she, she's been brilliant, Beth Mead, because she's also had to, having started,

Speaker 4 you know, she's also had to effectively be a bit part player. But as again, I go back to my point earlier.
I don't think you can be a bit part player in football nowadays.

Speaker 7 It is the collective isn't it i mean you haven't seen me from helbin old boy so you i guarantee you you absolutely can um niam charles yeah yeah

Speaker 7 well her header away at the back post gotta say it was a great almost perfect answer

Speaker 1 nick was spain the best team in this tournament i mean they weren't the team that won so we'd have to say no but um i mean look they they score play and are capable of a level of football that no one else

Speaker 1 not England, not Germany, not any of the other leading lights are capable of.

Speaker 1 I think they will look back and they were clearly looking back at full time.

Speaker 1 They were stood there motionless with hands on hips and arms folded.

Speaker 1 They will look back and think they should have won that game and put it to bed yesterday.

Speaker 1 I mean, a lot of the England players, I mean, going back quickly to England's heroism, like in the last 15 minutes, half that team could barely run and they still held out.

Speaker 1 It was that gutsy.

Speaker 1 yeah spain are capable of of of a level that nobody else can match and i think it's um it's more that other teams now have to adapt the way they play as i was saying before in order to to combat them so i i don't think it's an end of an era for spain i don't think anyone can come close to them in terms of the fluidity and and the patterns and the moves that they make and the sheer technical quality and depth they can call upon what other countries have that maybe they

Speaker 1 don't have.

Speaker 1 And I think what England has is maybe the level of drive and commitment to the sport and the passion and the infrastructure and the whole network surrounding the team that maybe can give it those extra intangibles and five and ten percent, which I know sounds quite abstract, but I think is there.

Speaker 1 And I think England has that now. Yeah, also, what I mean, we can come to her, but I think one person we haven't really mentioned yet that Spain don't have is Serena Vigan.

Speaker 1 Yes, yeah, and and I spoil the top of part three, Nick, but carry on.

Speaker 1 Apologies.

Speaker 1 In that case, I'm going to mention the Spain manager at Monster Tommy, who, to be fair, I'm not digging out at all because her team is fantastic.

Speaker 1 But I was watching her congratulate Viegman at the end and thinking maybe just at this point, they don't have a Serena Viegman in charge, and maybe that was what made the difference.

Speaker 1 And is that a good enough segue for you?

Speaker 14 Not bad at all. Seb, you wanted to come in before we end up.

Speaker 7 I think Spain are

Speaker 7 the greatest boxer with one hand tied behind their back. And I heard some people praising the Spanish system and the Spanish setup and success, but no,

Speaker 7 this is against it completely. They have had to, what they've had to do to get to this point, it's almost the individual players' love of the sport itself that keeps them going in the backdrop.

Speaker 7 The FA have not supported them in the way that they should. The Spanish football culture hasn't supported them in the way it should.
I remember in the press before the final, a journalist asked,

Speaker 7 how can you sell this final to the Spanish public? It's like, what do you need to sell it for? They're the world champions. They're a standout side.
They've scored loads of goals.

Speaker 7 They've got the best players in the world. And yet they have to fight against that.
And I think Barcelona

Speaker 7 have been the key to it, really. I mean,

Speaker 7 they make up the vast majority of the squad and that cohesion and everything is built into that.

Speaker 7 And they've been the trigger, which is ironic, of course, because so many in that part of the world don't consider themselves Spanish. So it's quite

Speaker 7 there were players, there is a tinge of sadness to it.

Speaker 7 You know, if you're a neutral watching as well, you would have wanted Spain to win.

Speaker 7 A lot of people would have done because there are players in that squad who weren't part of the last World Cup, not because of injury. Yeah.
you know, frozen out effectively.

Speaker 7 And that's why, you know, Monce Tomei as well, there are many who don't really warm to her in the squad either because they see her as part of that previous regime and that's the thing about it if spain were to properly back their women's team i mean they could go on an unprecedented domination of the sport because technical and almost brought up raised football culture point of view i think they're almost unmatched in the world well while we're still in spain pretty big the cruelest part of the night i felt was at the end when they've set up a podium and the england players are sort of in a kind of a guard of honour kind of still not really holding in their celebrations.

Speaker 1 I don't blame them. And then Bon Mati is named player of the tournament, and

Speaker 1 she has to walk

Speaker 1 through the England players who are being very sporting and applauding her, but are still inwardly and slightly outwardly whooping. And

Speaker 1 it must have felt for Bon Matie after putting in the levels that she has put in in the last few weeks with all the context of having meningitis before the tournament.

Speaker 1 I was watching her thinking, that walk has got to feel a million miles long. And then she had to pose for the obligatory photos with a trophy and she could not crack a smile.

Speaker 1 It was absolute grim.

Speaker 7 And I must admit, well, obviously, we're all delighted with the outcome.

Speaker 1 On yesterday, my heart went out to her there because I thought nobody really could have put more. in to the last three weeks than Aitana Bronmatti.

Speaker 1 And that walk must have just been the bleakest 30 seconds of her career. But she'll be back.
Like,

Speaker 1 she's an absolute winner and an absolute superstar.

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Speaker 14 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Slightly surprised that none of you have brought up Serena Viegman yet

Speaker 14 in the first half hour. I I mean, look, three Euros on the bounce for her.
I mean, five major tournament finals in a row. It is, Faye, frankly, ridiculous.

Speaker 4 It is, but she's ridiculous.

Speaker 4 She just,

Speaker 4 what I found really interesting this tournament is, again,

Speaker 4 I go back to the point of we love to tear people down. People have been trying to find holes in Serena Wiegman, you know, criticizing her for timings of substitutions.

Speaker 4 How can you do that when the substitutions then come on and make the impact she's brought them on to do?

Speaker 4 and then they go ahead and they go and win against the odds uh the uh the euro 2025 second european championship in a row i mean you know she has a winning mentality but she also knows how to create a team and she's very honest and lots of people don't like that honesty but if they don't like that honesty then they step away as we've seen before you know we it happened to steph horton um ahead of euro 2022 devastated uh for her but you know the choice was was made and then she articulated it to the player.

Speaker 4 You know, we all work in the media. The last thing on earth that you ever want is for somebody just not to tell you and then it just happens.
You know, she's very, very honest with her players.

Speaker 4 We saw it when she was at the Netherlands and it works. It might sting at the time, but it actually does work.

Speaker 4 Same coming in when we saw the big names deciding to step away leading into this tournament.

Speaker 4 It's going to be really interesting to see what changes going forward because her number two, I am viewing, she credits with so much of the way the Lionesses play and has been with her for ages.

Speaker 4 He's now going on to manage the Netherlands himself. So that change in backroom staff is going to be a really interesting shift.
But, you know, she has this contract till 2027.

Speaker 4 She wants the World Cup. That's the one trophy that she does not have.
She's a serial Euros winner, but she wants the World Cup. And she's been to the final twice now and not won won it.

Speaker 4 So 2027 is her goal. And I tell you what, I wouldn't put it past her to go and win that if everything goes according to plan, because she is that special ingredient that England have.

Speaker 4 And you have to credit the FA for going and finding her and bringing her here.

Speaker 4 You know, again, under criticism, because, you know,

Speaker 4 in an ideal world, I think as England fans, you would prefer the England national team to be managed by an English coach.

Speaker 4 But at the same time, if you know that we don't quite have those coaches ready to take that mantle on, then finding one of the best out there, which she absolutely is, is the next thing that you go and do.

Speaker 4 And they did.

Speaker 14 Is she as good as Phil Neville, though? Like, managerly.

Speaker 7 You couldn't finish that sentence.

Speaker 14 Yeah, what impresses you the most, Seb, about her?

Speaker 7 She's the perfect manager. When you think of any, what makes managers great, and you give different different reasons motivation tactics

Speaker 7 personal um interaction with players the interaction with the media and the interaction with the fa they're all different skills needed and she nails all of them i remember after the world cup final in 2019 uh fifa did a video with the two coaches um jillelis and and serena viedman for the final and I remember watching that and thinking

Speaker 7 the way she was analysing the game, talking about it, I was learning from her analysis of the game and her real frank analysis.

Speaker 7 She's able to say

Speaker 7 she looks at the limitations as well. She knows where the problems are in her side and she tries to counter them in a way rather than sugarcoat it or not give these things away.

Speaker 7 She's open with her analysis and she's always ahead of the game. She speaks.
She's always talking about her relationship with the FA.

Speaker 7 She speaks about the, you know, I mentioned it on the previous pod about the the youth system the link up st george's park she she's confident in that she's with the media she answers questions she smiles there's actually quite a funny few funny moments when she's in the press conferences i think she's made the concerted effort to to smile during the press conferences when people are asking questions because i think maybe again she's aware of these things the emotional intelligence thing i don't want to have that resting face where people accuse me of not listening the danny murphy the danny murphy resting resting go away face but there was a German reporter asked a question and the switch up on her face was so Dutch.

Speaker 7 It told you a lot about Dutch-German relations in football because she had this German reporter ask her a question and she went from this huge smile to the straightest face and was like, what do you want?

Speaker 7 What are you doing here?

Speaker 7 And I think she buys into that humor.

Speaker 7 During press conferences, she'll say, you know, I want,

Speaker 7 if it's not in the question's not in English, she'll sort of rebuff it a bit because she feels that, you know, that's how English people also behave.

Speaker 7 It's like everything should be in English type thing. She's more into it.

Speaker 7 She even, you know, to be a bit self-indulgent, but there was a nice moment where it was passed on to me that she saw me in the gantry and she was like, Oh, is that is that the guy who that's the Seb who does the commentaries?

Speaker 7 I've been listening in on the commentary and thinking, How's that possible when you're managing the team every time you're doing it?

Speaker 7 And she, she's just somebody who those little things make all the difference because then when you're when I'm commentating on a game, I'm thinking, you know, Serena cares about this stuff, and so i have to be nice

Speaker 7 so yeah but one bit of flattery

Speaker 7 she's bought you pretty easily zeb just absolutely succumbed to the president

Speaker 7 that's all it takes we're all susceptible not even flattery just just just acknowledgement of existence not even flattery yeah it's a slight fear because she's she's got a hard edge as well she she she likes clamps down on leaks of team news she's like on this stuff and she's been so good with so many of the players players and she just instilled that group mentality and there's always going to be you know not you can't be liked by everybody but if you're liked by most that's or the majority i think you've done pretty well

Speaker 14 okay then 2027 nick unless the men win in the usa canada mexico then england would be so let's let's presume they don't you know just history suggesting then no this could be the first team to not only win a major tournament on foreign soil but in another continent as well and it is more difficult difficult for reasons that I suppose home advantage clearly helps, doesn't it?

Speaker 14 But do you think when you look at that squad,

Speaker 14 how many won't be there in 2027? What's the future looking like? How hopeful can we be, do you think?

Speaker 7 I think we can be hopeful for 27.

Speaker 1 I think they can have

Speaker 1 a real crack at it. I think most of these players will still be around.

Speaker 1 I think, obviously, a lot of the younger players we've talked about, less experienced players who have stepped up and become new heroes this summer, such as Hamilton and Andrew Meng, just to name two, will be that bit more experienced, have that bit more presence about them.

Speaker 1 Lots of good fringe players around the squad. I think they can really push on and have another big go at it.

Speaker 1 I'd be more concerned, maybe, about the four or five years after that when I think we've got to look at what I alluded to earlier, the pathways that are players coming through and how much experience at the top level players who are currently 16, 17, 18, 19 are getting.

Speaker 1 And I wonder whether England may have a slightly fallow period or readjustment period in the later half of this decade and early part of next.

Speaker 1 But I think for 27, this might be a perfect time where a lot of these players are coming right into their peak. And the young players who have supplemented this journey

Speaker 1 this summer are just that bit older and better and can play an even bigger role. So

Speaker 1 I'm all in for 27. I think they've got a really good chance.

Speaker 14 I think down the line, we've got a question about the five years after that, but let's not be a spoil sport no ellen white face said oh look my two-year-old is watching all of this and has been inspired i was like come on i mean i know two-year-olds i'm not sure what they're inspired maybe by a yellow digger but you know but maybe ellen white's two-year-old is smart smart smarter than mine but that question about legacy and inspiration that's also quite a tedious question and i just wonder you know how closer to how close are we at the end of a tournament to not having to ask and what does this mean for the women's game?

Speaker 14 Are we, are we, we're now at a stage where we can ask the question in a kind of meta way like that, but when will I not go?

Speaker 14 And what does this mean for, you know, English football or women's football, et cetera?

Speaker 4 When society changes. So it could be a while.

Speaker 4 And by the way, my three-year-old, not particularly inspired, actually on the Guardian Women's Football Weekly chose Paul Patrol over the football.

Speaker 4 Also got incredibly confused because the Lions, in terms of rugby union, play in red and we've obviously been supporting the Lions.

Speaker 4 So when he comes to sit in front of England versus Spain, he says, Go on the Reds. It's like, no, no, no, not today, not today.

Speaker 14 Your son is more basic than Ellen Mike, is what we're basically saying.

Speaker 4 Perhaps, although he did watch those,

Speaker 4 did watch the penalties behind us, but he did get the context of

Speaker 4 being English and watching penalties. Amazing.
It was half eight. This was an early kickoff.
This is what we needed because we knew that was going to go all the way.

Speaker 4 But

Speaker 4 to answer your question, I think because there is still so much growth within the women's game, that actually it's still a relevant question in many ways, although it might feel frustrating.

Speaker 4 It's still important because we're still catching up

Speaker 4 and the growth has been exponential, but there's still so much more to go. So building on the legacy of 2022,

Speaker 4 again, is going to send it up to another. level yet again.
So I do,

Speaker 4 I don't think you should be so hard on yourself for asking the question in the first place is what I'm saying.

Speaker 4 I think, you know, the legacy, what I loved about it, I go back to the answer I gave about the resilience piece. I love the fact that it wasn't just about skill and

Speaker 4 being the best team. It was about mentality.
It was about

Speaker 4 grit. It was about getting through it.
And I think that is also different because that feeds a different narrative. And you've still got these, you know, my niece was sitting there.

Speaker 4 She's 18 years old. She's like, Michelle Adjerman's the same age as me.
I'm like, yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 4 And so that to her was like, you've got no chance.

Speaker 14 You're not going to make it.

Speaker 7 She's realised she's not going to make it.

Speaker 4 But she's not even into football, my niece. And yet she thoroughly, you know, enjoyed the drama of last night.
So it's not even just people who are football fans already.

Speaker 4 It's

Speaker 4 different levels of fandom, I think, and different that you mentioned it right at the top, Max, in your introduction, the stories that this tournament has brought and the stories that this team have and the stories that this

Speaker 4 Euros have, that is what, you know, continues the legacy. We're giving a platform.

Speaker 4 It's amazing. So, you know, we're still at sky is the limit.

Speaker 14 Joe says, not a question, but I'm watching the Euros final and Seb just exclaimed, peanut, in a way that made him sound like a cockney shouting peanuts, which made me laugh.

Speaker 14 How much of a come down set will be a 3pm Burnley Nottingham Forest game in a couple of months?

Speaker 7 Well, I've got Birmingham Sheffield United in the first round of the Carabao Cup. That's my comeback game for the new season, and nothing against those two sides.

Speaker 7 But I think St Andrews on a Tuesday or Wednesday night or where there is, it will feel different. But

Speaker 7 I think that's the buzz. It's just the buzz of football.

Speaker 7 What I've loved about this tournament, and it has been my favourite from a commentary point of view, but mainly because England won but they took you from moments where you just thought well this is coming to nothing to you know moments that will go down in history as far as England teams in tournaments and that joy and knowing

Speaker 7 it's actually rare it's rare really knowing that the majority of the audience the vast majority of the audience wants one of the teams to win as in England and you are on that train because a lot of the time

Speaker 7 you have to be you know neutral really even though people might be accusing you of supporting one team over the other. You're neutral, you're down the line, it's your professional angle.

Speaker 7 And covering England gives you that rare chance to

Speaker 7 show a little bit of the football fan in you. Um, and you know, some people disagree, they think you should still remain neutral covering England.
I mean, I completely disagree.

Speaker 7 I completely disagree because I don't think from international football, that's what makes it so pure in a way is that you just by just by your cultural upbringing, uh,

Speaker 7 you are you're just connected by default or you reject it by default.

Speaker 7 So I just don't think it's something that you could, I just don't, I can't really picture somebody watching the game thinking, oh, you know, don't really have an opinion on this

Speaker 7 if they're from the UK, I mean.

Speaker 7 I can't imagine the people in Wales and Scotland going, oh, you know, come on, England, you know.

Speaker 14 Friend of the pod, Barca Jim, you know, who obviously has totally against the England men's team, this was the game that turned him to be totally against the England women's team as well, which I think is the greatest sign of progress.

Speaker 7 Yes, exactly.

Speaker 14 Matt said, This is any sport more resistant to having the best team always win than football, and is this what makes football so great? And I think, Nick, that is it, isn't it?

Speaker 14 That you don't have that is why, and obviously, it's not an objective panel for people on a football podcast saying football's the best sport, but it is, and it is because

Speaker 14 you don't have to be the best to win, and and that takes it to a level that's different to pretty much any sport

Speaker 1 Completely.

Speaker 1 And I think that maybe is partly why, you know,

Speaker 1 why the way England won it has probably been quite good for the hype back home and everything. Because if you're cruising through a tournament winning 3-0

Speaker 1 every time, if you're winning the semi-final against Italy 4-0, that quite a few people were predicting. It's very, very nice.
But what are you talking about at work the next day?

Speaker 1 Like, where are the crowds of people in the pub watching extra time at 10.30, losing

Speaker 1 everything

Speaker 1 when the winning penalty goes in.

Speaker 1 It creates those moments and that glorious uncertainty and

Speaker 1 spontaneity is something that

Speaker 1 you don't get in, I think, any other sport.

Speaker 7 And we all agree on that.

Speaker 1 So it's,

Speaker 1 yeah, without doubt.

Speaker 1 But I think the way that England did it, even if we can nitpick at most of the performances in some way, was just absolutely perfect for maintaining the momentum and hype and good feeling around the game and around the sport that we've just been talking about.

Speaker 1 We can talk about how to play in a different way another day, but I think in terms of bringing the country together around a team and making people love them,

Speaker 1 the agony and ecstasy, it's what English teams have always done. And it was, you know, in an imperfect way, a perfect way to do it.

Speaker 14 Fate, final word, because Seb has to catch a flight in five minutes to go.

Speaker 7 Carry on, Faye. We can't.

Speaker 4 In that context, we can't then strop around saying, but we were the better team. We can't do it.

Speaker 14 No, we can't. And we won't, but we still won.
So it doesn't matter. Thanks, everybody.
Enjoyed that. Thank you, Nick.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Max. Thank you, Seb.

Speaker 7 Thank you. Cheers, Faye.
Thanks, Max.

Speaker 14 We're back tomorrow with a mailbag. Barry, John Bruin, Mark Langdon.
If you have any questions, we'll go back to, you know, the transfer window and all that.

Speaker 14 Malarkey Football Weekly at theguardian.com. You can send them over on Instagram or Blue Sky Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.
Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

Speaker 7 This is The Guardian.