Brilliant Bonmatí sends Spain into Euro 2025 final, plus transfer talk – Football Weekly Extra

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Everyone thought Spain would make the final of the Euros and they have.

A repeat of the World Cup final two years ago then, but they were pushed all the way by Germany.

In the end, itana bonmati won it meningitis the other week taking her team to the final this no big deal she found anne katrinberger's achilles heel which was quite close to anne katrinberger's achilles heel germany were defensively brilliant and probably had the better chances but given the quality on show spain must go into the final as favourites you're not writing off in them though just to adjumang it later on also today transfer news chelsea finally look like signing an attacking wide player as xavi simmons looks set to join mike rodrigo come to the premier league liverpool the latest apparently interested while marcus rashford is unveiled at Barcelona.

We'll do all that plus your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Seb Hutchinson.

Adjimang, welcome.

Hello, Max.

It was really good.

We'll get to that.

Nadia Manuha, welcome.

Morning, sir.

And hello, Johnny Liu.

Morning, Max.

So then Germany-nil Spain won.

Bomati winning it in extra time, beating and catching Berger at her near post.

Spain's first Euros final, their first ever win over germany you were at the game in zurich uh johnny how was it actually actually we only got one pass um so so uh yeah nick ames took my pass all right i i watched it from my hotel room and um

i you know i i watched most of it it was also there was also a cracking night of world match play darts which i had on the second screen uh so you know i guess we'll talk about about josh rock in in in part two maybe um but uh yeah no so at what point do you and nick nick ames decide who's taking this are you stood outside the stadium or did you know in advance you only had one pass for this i don't know a little peek behind the the guardian magician's curtain here but but it was a couple of days ago that we we realized we were only getting one pass and uh because obviously they give priority to first of all that the team's playing and then and then swiss journalists and it's not a huge press box at uh at zurich so I think a decision was made that Nick would do this one.

And if we didn't get all the passes we wanted for the final, that

I would do the final.

So that's how it's worked out.

Right, I understand.

Anyway, let's talk about the game itself.

No, it's a shame because

it was a slow burn, wasn't it?

I think there were long periods of, I guess, what you'd call Spain dominance, but in a slightly, and that slightly slow and sterile way that sometimes they do.

They obviously had chances.

It was a really heroic defensive performance by Germany, who I think they were pretty much battered in the first half, had a few chances in the second half.

And I think once it got to extra time, the fact that they'd gone 120 minutes against France and now being given the run around

with 10 players as well, and then being given

the run around by Spain for another 120 minutes, I think it just got to them.

And Bon Mati, we know she can do that.

It's a kind of a touch of class that she's capable of.

She doesn't need to always be in games to dominate them.

she's not you know somebody like mariano is i think a lot more uh a lot busier whereas bon mati she can she can lurk and she she always has that that incredible piece of skill or that incredible game-breaking touch or pass up her sleeve and and that that's how it transpired you know it won chance and i i did think she meant it i think she was talking afterwards about how she she'd seen that that berger and catherine berger who's been so so great for germany this tournament she tries to borrow a a yard or two off her line in in those situations.

So there's the, I guess, the vision to create the chance and the presence of mind to know where the gap is going to open up.

And then just the sheer skill to execute it.

And yeah, tough on Germany.

But

I think they'll be quite proud of how they've done this tournament.

I don't think expectations in Germany were sky high.

ahead of this tournament and I think that the fact that

they've reached the last four, that they've, I think, overcome quite a lot of injuries they could they can hold their heads up high definitely Nadim it is a brilliant finish isn't it from Bon Mati and you know you more proof that you can get beaten at your near post despite how many people say you can't get beaten at your near post but it is a shame for Berger because she's had such a brilliant tournament had a great game but a brilliant tournament that amazing save in the last round to get beaten like that where

I mean, I guess nine times out of ten or even more, you know, whoever's there is just going to put it in the box.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think if Bomartis is saying that she's seen that tendency with Berger, then fair play to her for being able to sort of capitalize on that.

And I think most goalkeepers would probably be standing maybe a little bit closer to their post.

So to score from theirs, it's not that it's impossible, but it's incredibly unlikely.

And like you say, it is a shame because one of the memories of that tournament will be the save against France.

You know, when she's reaching back in that manner, to be able to get her hand to it and then, you know, for the ball to not go in as well afterwards, you know, that's a really like iconic moment, the type of thing which she'll always remember.

And it's just a shame that that from her perspective, I think as that goal goes in, it'd be very unlikely that she didn't think that was at least,

well, she knows that's going to be her doing.

She knows that's her fault.

Because the positioning is one thing, but I think just before the ball goes in as well, she's looking in and around the box to tell people where to be.

That's just, that's football in a nutshell.

Like, she'd been so good.

We switch off for a second, especially at this sort of high level, then you can't be punished.

And, you know, you're only coming up against a two-time recent Ballon d'Or winner.

So maybe she could find that weakness as such.

And she did.

And those games, you know, know they're defined by those just small moments because we talked about the the chances that germany had for example even the one to start the game if they scored that first then what does it mean for the game but it's the way football goes isn't it you need to make sure that when your moments come you take them and otherwise you know you find the same team sort of taking part in the finals again

yeah and we love a story seb and you know nobody would wish anyone to have meningitis a few weeks before a tournament no but then to have that get over it you know like i've it's hard enough to play when you've had a bit of man flu but like to get over that and then be the match winner to take your team to the final.

Yeah, and I've always thought, I think there's always been a belief that Josh Rock would dominate world darts.

And I

sorry, um,

what was the question?

The question was about

Bon Mati and getting over.

I like that you've been saving up that joke for five minutes.

And I went to Nadie, like, maybe the joke will still work.

I'll still try it.

Why not?

It'll work, he'll work, he'll probably get cut out.

No, um, I think the thing with Bon Mati, she's one of the most famous players in the world.

And in that sense, what happens is when people are checking into matches, maybe for the first time, watching teams for the first time, they're waiting to see what's the hype about.

Why are these players considered the best players in the world?

And Bon Mati is not always a player.

I think, you know, Johnny touched on it.

She's not a player that you're going to be...

across when you're watching the match, keeping your eye on it all time.

She's on the ball, getting loads and loads of touches.

She's making things happen all the time.

But in a tournament in which she wasn't really involved in the group stage because of the aforementioned reasons, she's produced defining moments already in this competition.

The back hill against Switzerland, the winner in this game.

And tournaments are always remembered by the big players in teams producing those special moments.

And we know in tournament football, it is those moments that decide things.

And teams can be organised.

We've seen teams in this tournament who are organised, have defended well, have countered well, have looked like they can deal with Spain.

But those icing on the cake players are the ones that make a difference.

And she is that player.

And that's why, even when people have questioned why is she winning Ballon d'Ors, and I look at the Spain team, and I think in many ways, Patrick Guiharo is more deserving of that title of being the best player in the world because she just...

contributes to the game more than anybody else and as a figurehead on and off the pitch as well.

She's huge but it's it's the glory of the game those little moments that make the difference in bon matty epitomizes that yeah and for spain johnny given everything that happened you know after they won the world cup and clearly england fans want england to win but like the idea that this team could win a trophy and celebrate without having to think of all the bullshit it sort of feels like that would be quite a nice thing it would be and and and also you know i guess a fitting reward for for a group of players who i think have proven themselves over the last couple of years as the preeminent force in the sport.

I think what happened a couple of years ago, all these kind of well-publicized issues with their coach,

Jorge Wilder, and

I guess the ruptions in the squad that obviously led to quite a few of their top players deciding they didn't want to be involved in the team.

And that kind of thing.

it can totally derail a team.

It can split a team apart.

And the fact that they were able to to hold it together they have to the fact that they almost kind of united in that sort of adversity and went on to to win the trophy i think spoke volumes of you know the character and and the quality in there and

they obviously have a new coach now in in monte tome who i i mean i i don't i don't rate her that highly i think she's she's basically a kind of a builder sort in that she um she she sets out her team in quite a

prosaic fashion and and just waits for them to win win.

I don't think you could point out a masterstroke of tactical genius or technical innovation in terms of what she's doing.

She's just managing this incredibly talented group of players very well.

And I think if Spain do do it, I think the credit again

goes to those players.

And I guess the grit and

resolve and the character they've shown.

Yeah, it's worth mentioning, Nathan, that, you know, Germany had chances.

And actually, we talked about that burger save in the previous previous round.

And it's not quite as good a save, but that double save, you know, right at the end, that deflected shot that Cole managed to just push out.

And then she's like right in her goal then to have the speed to sort of, I always think that about keepers having to do those training where they go down and get up really quickly.

You think, I'll just be down for 25 minutes.

Like, it's a huge moment, isn't it?

I mean, it's a great chance

to win it for Germany.

Yeah, you're exactly right, Max.

And you've exposed yourself as to why it's just not for you football sometimes.

You know what I mean?

No, I just want to lay down on the floor.

No, I'm going to do my job.

I'm just going to lay down because I've done enough work already.

And yeah, you can talk about the value of a save.

And sometimes the value is higher when you think of the timing of it.

Because at this point, there's no bouncing back.

If that ball goes in, the game is basically over.

So for her to be able to do it in a game where she's been quite quiet overall as well, I think, again, it says a lot about the professionals and the mentality and just the ability as well to be ready for those situations.

And yeah, like I say, that could have been the whole game done for Spain there in a game which they thought they probably dominated.

But instead, you bought them time, gave them an opportunity and extra time was all they needed how good have Spain been this tournament Seb because they sort of started off like a whirlwind didn't they with Spain it's been building for several years now I remember before the last Euro Euros I'd watched them play a few times and I was just of the belief this team is going to win the Euros the last one

and then England did what England do which is get themselves over the line, their mentality, they never say die attitude.

But I just felt it was always on borrowed time that they are technically and tactically and cohesion wise the best team on the planet and not by a country mile because japan have elements that are similar to spain and can match them and exceed them at times but they are i think in european football the benchmark in terms of quality and so when you have a team full of barcelona players or players who played for barcelona that again that club cohesion works just like it did for the men you know 15 odd years ago so they haven't they don't need to be at their best every minute of the game.

And I think against Portugal in the first game, they overwhelmed Portugal and they played them recently twice and Portugal knew they had no answer and were beaten before the game started.

Italy had good moments against them, but Spain had changed a few players and they got through that one.

Even in the quarter-final against Switzerland, they weren't at their best and Switzerland worked hard and harried them and defended pretty well.

But again, it felt that Switzerland were on borrowed time before Spain were going to get through.

And then Germany, who I've always believed would be the side who had the template to beat them in that they could defend oddly enough and had pace on the attack and do what Germany actually did to England in a friendly at the end of last year.

They couldn't quite go the line against Spain either.

You're looking at, I just think they are a level above everybody else.

And you can rattle them at some times and you can get in behind their defense and they hold that high line and if you've got the pace, but they wear teams down and they wear me as a viewer viewer down in the sense you're watching them and you're thinking, okay, they've got the ball, they're probing, they're probing, they're probing.

And they do that to the opposition who drop deeper and deeper and deeper.

And then there's a cutback and someone has a shot on the edge of the area.

And you're constantly having to work so hard mentally to stay in the game against them.

And it is quite incredible the progress because we're talking about their first Euros final, talking about them winning the competition for the first time.

But we're also talking about a side who we expect to dominate the women's game.

And they've had eras of this in the women's game where there's been teams that are able to dominate for periods.

England felt they could be in that position, but just like in the men's game at youth level, both FAs are on this campaign against each other almost where they just keep running into each other in youth finals and now senior finals.

And Spain just have that edge.

And that's why I just felt it was inevitable that they'd be in the final.

But what route it would take was always the case in point.

Would it be Germany in the final?

Would it be England?

We'll look ahead to the final in part two.

But I wonder, Nadam and Johnny,

just watching that game last night, it felt like a better quality football match than the England Literally game.

It just felt like, okay, I know they're different styles,

Spain and Germany, but whoever wins this game, you sort of feel has to go into the final as the favourites.

I don't know, I don't know if you disagree with that.

Oh, it's a big take there.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm here for it.

People are known for, I'm known for my provocative opinions, nathan listen i've got no issue i feel like you're halfway there like if spain make it to the final as world champions then yes they will be favorites for it but i don't see why we'd say that with germany because that's the team as well who you know like england finished second in their group and were overwhelmed by sweden in their last group game and obviously they had a red card within that but i thought at times germany didn't really look as good in the group stages as say i would have hoped i think in the second half of the games they did do well but there were certain games especially the one against poland poland taking part in their first ever euros where they made germany look uncomfortable for long periods So as a consequence, I think I was more impressed with Germany when they went down to 10 against France.

I think that defensive stand that they showed and the fact that they were still dangerous on the break and so on, that was probably, for me personally, the best I'd seen them to this point.

And I thought yesterday, when this, the way they started the game with the aggression, trying to put Spain under pressure and so on, that's the way that teams need to play.

But every team has the physicality to be able to do that.

And again, I was impressed in parts, but what let me down in some ways was as the game was going on,

the ability to sort of like play the ball through the thirds and be able to take the ball off the field without some of these unforced errors and turnovers.

I think the more turnovers you have, the more frustrated you can be because as Seb was saying, like, it's exhausting playing against Spain because you won't touch the ball.

Like, I don't think there are many managers whose idea of great football is watching another team keep it and you run around and follow them.

So I understand the Spain side of things.

And Nadem, and Nadam, I'm not suggesting this happened to you a lot, but what is it like when you are a team that doesn't have the ball against a team that has the ball a lot?

Well, I think there are different ways to perceive that because some of the teams that I played for, they just let the other team have the ball because they knew we couldn't do anything with it.

Whereas I think with teams like Spain, you know, they have the ball because they're so good at keeping it.

And I mentioned that pressure that Germany put them under, but they can all take the ball under pressure.

That's when you're seeing that midfield three really sort of dominate.

That's when you're seeing the people in the back line know they can go and use their goalkeeper, recycle the ball and keep it and frustrate you because Germany don't want to just be running around.

They want the ball.

And I think that's the difference sometimes in mentality between some of the teams that I played for and some of the better teams on the international level, we could say.

Johnny, do you want to pick apart my hot take on the two semi-finals?

The interesting thing about Germany is that they don't want to play that way.

That is not how they would have envisaged going into the tournament, defending for their lives.

But I think they got forced into a certain pragmatism through circumstance rather than design.

So Lena Oberdorf, who's probably their main playmaker, their most creative player,

She didn't get fit in time for the tournament.

They lost their captain, Julia Gwin,

in the first game to an injury.

And so they've almost been forced to simplify their game plan.

And obviously they go down to 10 players against France, which again forces them into a certain style of play.

And, you know, you see this in

the selection of Giovanna Hoffmann up front, who's...

who's had a great season for Leipzig, but in a struggling Leipzig team, and has been, I think, chosen as much for her physicality, her ability to hold the ball up, her defensive work, and as anything she does on the ball.

I have to say, I have to imagine that Leia Schuler hasn't been fully fit because it kind of mystified me that she wasn't brought off the bench until something like the 15th, 110th minute.

So I think Germany would have, they would have gone into this tournament, maybe hoping or expecting to play a little bit more proactively, but I think have been forced by circumstances not to and i think they the point with england is is that if they play like that i mean i know i know we'll get to this if they if they play like that they will get trampled on but i don't we haven't seen england put in two consistent they are fundamentally incapable of putting in two like performances in in consecutive games i got a message from a message on the the group from from jonathan wilson during the the first semifinal going is there a third place playoff and i replied this is it you're watching it but i maybe that's slightly harsh on england because they can raise their game the problem is will Spain do the same which is a very important point I'm going to make I really wanted to give a massive shout out to the Germany kit it's one of my favourite international kits I've seen for some time and its success is in its simplicity the clean the the sharp the clean black proper black around the collar the trim the white the retro feel about it but at the same time and it's the culture being brought up in england and suffering headlines on newspapers saying up tung surrender in 1996 um that you're almost not allowed to say that at times and people say germany's kit

but

i i'd wear it right now if i could afford to pay what they charge for kits now yeah and after the abomination of what england and italy produced with their kits in that other semi-final it was nice to see that uh uefa and spain and germany listened to yesterday's pod ahead of the game.

All right, we'll look ahead to the final in part two.

Hi, pod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So on Thursday, the 11th of September, we are playing the Troxy in London.

First live show for two years.

So you must be frothing at the idea.

I mean I presume none of you have done anything in the last two years just been waiting for this announcement tickets can be purchased by heading to theguardian.com slash football weekly live it'll be live streamed as well if you can't make it to East London so there is no excuse for anyone listening to this not to buy a ticket because you can watch that live stream over the next week as well so you could come to the live show and then watch the live stream back if you're a football weekly completist nadam and johnny you've both experienced football weekly live you can attest attest to what a life-changing night it is, Nadam, can't you?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Without question, one of my,

one of the highlights of my life, something I always dreamed of doing.

And to be alongside you on the stage there, I don't think it can be topped.

And I hope that everybody that goes to these ones just really appreciate how a life-changing event it actually is.

I saw Beach House at Troxy a few years ago.

who are all of my favourite bands, but

they didn't do any football banter at all.

Wow.

Which was slightly disappointing.

So

you got a real chance to steal a march

on the Synth Pop Duro.

Yeah, I do.

I think I went to Ghostbusters' secret cinema there, and

they had a larger stay-puff Marshmallow man than we're planning at this stage.

But, you know, we don't know which panelists we could put in a big outfit just to satisfy the Ghostbusters audience as well.

So, yeah, go to that website.

What was it?

Theguardian.com slash football weekly live.

We will stick it on our Instagram, Blue Sky, and TikTok accounts.

I didn't didn't know we had a tick tock account are we big on tick tock how exciting right england spain then uh repeated the world cup final uh two years ago do we make changes what do you think nadam or do we you know we'll get on to seb and how how no one has said ajamang with more joy uh before but it feels like you know Reignman will start in a very similar way and then mix it up when Spain are won the luck with 15 minutes left.

Yeah, it does feel that way.

But I've got to ask the question because I've not been tracking stuff outside of the games themselves.

But the decision to go with Esme Morgan over Jess Carter, was that a decision based on the previous week's events?

Or is it a football inside of things?

Do you know the answer to that one, Seb?

Yeah, it's a football element for sure.

Absolutely.

And I think Esme Morgan, she was put up for the press conference the day after the Sweden game.

And that gave me a sense.

The way she was...

really bubbly after that game, the way she speaks, the passion about it, I got the sense that she knew she was in the fold and she impressed when she came off the bench.

I actually thought it was going to be the opposite.

I thought she wouldn't, I thought she might just play Carter because people would look at it for the reasons that you're suggesting.

But then when I have thought about it and I remember speaking to Ian Wright about it, it also helped on so many levels for just not to start that game.

And so it worked out ultimately in the end.

Do you think it'll stay that way then?

So, to let you in behind the curtain a little bit here, so I'm friends Versa May Morgan and I spoke to her after the first game, after the friends game, talking about some of the disappointments and stuff.

And she was talking about how, you know, you just got to stay ready, you just got to stay ready, so on and so forth.

And I think in some ways, her

playing, which is, I don't know if you'd agree with this, is similar to say Michelle Adjermang.

Like in a different setup for this tournament, if England are dominant, I don't think Esme Morgan's probably came on to go three at the back in the game that they had.

I don't think Adjermang's probably played those minutes at the end of the games because of the fact that they're sort of chasing the game.

But instead, they've all led to this point to where those two are now significant options for the European Championship final.

So, with Esme, I'm firstly like delighted for her.

The fact that she could stay patient enough and be ready to come in and do that.

I'm not really surprised because I know how good she is.

But, yeah, she's going to be playing in the European Championship final.

I know how much that means to her and all the rest of the women in that team.

So, it'd be amazing to get a little bit sentimental, by the way, or just to almost have a reverse reality check.

My kids, so I've got two daughters and my son.

My daughter's oldest daughter's 11, next daughter's eight, my son's about turn seven.

And, like, in their lifetimes, all they've seen is England be good, which I find hilarious.

Like,

this is the third

final in a row for England women, a World Cup in two European Championship finals.

And for even like the men's side of things, they've played in your two Euros finals.

Then let's go a bit younger.

They talk like England and 21s.

They've won back-to-back European championships.

I'm like, and these kids now, they're watching games at night time.

Are they not going to win?

Are they not going to win?

I'm like, nah, they'll be all right.

Just hang on a second.

something's going to happen so shout out to all that and sort of the the fact that it's inspiring so many um but yeah i think the team will probably say the same because she trusts them she knows that they can play on the big occasion against people who some of these call their peers and against some who they call adversaries on a sort of almost week-to-week basis so i think she'll stick with that and over this ton again my biggest takeaway is that i really really believe in serena viegman by the way because whatever the situation is i feel like she's got an idea or a sub in in play, which maybe some of us hadn't thought about, but instead she gets it done.

And I'm a full believer in it.

Because even going into the last game, in my mind, I thought, well, Russo's replacement is Agua Jones.

So if Russo stays on, then you bring on Ajimang to compliment her.

And then all of a sudden, she's bringing on Aguybiva Jones and Ajimang at the same time for Russo.

And it's because she's seen something, she's seen a different way that the game is going to compare to other people.

And her ability to, as it stands, pick the right person for those moments and not look too flustered on the side outside of that France game where I think everyone was flustered on the sidelines.

I've been a big fan, so I think she's going to probably pick the same team, but whatever she picks, I've got no doubts whatsoever that it's going to be a good enough team to win the game.

Yeah, it's hard to argue with five straight major tournament finals that Serena Beben has.

And yet, as you alluded to in part one, Johnny, England haven't been great in this tournament, which I guess you can say, well, they've got to the final without being great.

They might be great in the final, and they probably have to be, right?

England is certainly capable of playing a level of football that

is far superior to anything they've shown so far.

And I think, you know, they are going to have to.

The interesting thing about

Spain this tournament is we've not seen how they do against a team that

really pressures them proactively, that puts pressure on Patri Guijaro, for example, that pressures Paredes, who is obviously so...

so integral to their build-up.

Whether England have the energy to do that after 220-minute games remains to be seen but yeah i the other the other thing is this is this could very well be a game that that gets decided by the benches you know spain able to to to change things they're able to bring like paraluelo off the bench they're able to bring athenia off the bench and and england too have have managed to they've used their substitutes to

well you know to stick it all the forwards on and get it in the mixer in the in the in the 93rd minute so these are these are teams that will will they will not finish the game probably anything anything like how they started it which which is what makes the you know it is so fascinating because there are going to be phases and subplots and chapters to this game that that you probably can't predict and Viegran is is right that

you don't

you can't foresee

there's not some tactical master plan that is going to to foresee how this game is going to pan out.

You kind of have to react on the fly a little bit.

You have to react to how it's going.

I think if there's an early goal, it could well be like an absolutely pandemonium type game or but if it stays nil-nil for for 45 minutes we could end up going the distance it's one of those it's it's hard to no seb how good adjumang is right because obviously she keeps making this incredible impact and then you obviously you can't you can't ignore that what she's done is brilliant and actually she did play really well in that extra time but then you sort of

because it's the story so many people have saying so many more people have probably spent more time talking about her abilities than she's actually had minutes playing for us to judge how good she is 100 this is the i i know we use the word genius all the time but it always works in football even when we don't really mean somebody's a genius but serena wiegmann i've covered or i've watched all of the games of her in charge of england all of the games and

even when you think she has a consistency to a team selection

She always is ahead of the game.

People who cover all the time, we think she's going to do this and then she does something slightly different.

She's going to do this, and then she does, she goes against what everybody's calling out to do.

Now, Michelle Adjiman,

strangely enough, she is an example of this connection that Serena Vieman has with the FA itself.

And this is another reason why she's so successful because she's so integrated in the FA and what they want to do as well, while being her own person and

putting her own stamp on the England side.

The other 23 system in women's football is an important part of England now.

And the idea of that players get an opportunity to showcase what they can do in an England shirt, but not for the senior side, right next to the manager.

The senior manager can see that St.

George's Park and see the games.

And Michelle's played for England at almost every age group, and she's always looked to stand out at every age group.

And there was almost a feeling for the under 19s that she was going to make that jump straight into the seniors.

and i think serena noticed that well before this tournament but thought it's going to be about timing nobody knows about her nobody knows what she can do at senior level so let's keep our powder dry i'm not suggesting she had that conversation with arsenal per se but even when she was on loan at brighton last year she wasn't a starter week in week out

substitute appearances she what didn't dominate

you know, the games for Brighton or anything like that.

So nobody really knew.

So even when she was drafted in the squad a a few months ago, there was still a sense of, oh, are you sure?

But she had an immediate impact on her debut, 40-odd seconds, scored, I think, the best Lioness's goal I've ever seen.

And even though it was in a defeat, her attitude to that game was pick the ball up, let's get back, let's win the game, the calmness about her play.

But then we didn't see her at all until the tournament started.

And there were several games after that.

And that's but I believed she was going to be in the squad because I could just see Serena Viman even even talking about her after the game.

This is my player who is going to possibly win the Euros for England because nobody will be able to deal with her when she comes on.

The ball is like a magnet to her when she comes on the pitch.

And even from a commentator's point of view, I'm just delighted to see her on the pitch because whenever that ball's in and around the penalty area, I'm thinking, where's Ajermang?

Where's Ajamang?

Where's Ajamang?

And so it was no surprise that she's been the saviour of England on two occasions.

And I've had lots of Ghanaian people texting me and messaging me saying her name means saviour of the nation, which I think is absolutely incredible.

I've not been able to check that.

And I don't know sometimes if people send you things and you think, are they just making this up?

But that just feels so apt that that's the case.

And I just think she's somebody who...

I don't even think she people say calling for her to start the final.

No, she shouldn't start the final.

Absolutely not.

She stays out of the picture.

England stay in the game and then she scores a hat trick with two minutes to play nadam another play that is talked about loads is is lauren james she might be injured she might be tired that doesn't stop me starting for melbourne bohemians i will point out um

but do you know if she is fit enough to start do you think she should yes i think so i think so i think she still has that quality which was one of the big factors is into why she you know she made the squad and why she was selected for the for the first few games as well so i'd definitely be on board with that i think it she did seem a bit quiet in that foot in that game just gone and maybe that was because of the injury but i think the style of play that she has is probably she's probably one of the one of the players in this team that's perfectly suited to be playing against spain because i think for the way that spain wants to defend it's very much on the front foot it's aggression in the turnovers it's applying as much pressure to players as possible but who's who's the lauren james stopper who's the one that's going to be able to match her physically match her speed understand her skill and when she gets past them who can catch her who can catch her up i don't think it would be the, I don't think it'd be the Spain centre half.

I don't think it would really be the Spain fullbacks.

And I think for the way that she plays, if she's at her best, then there aren't many in world football like her.

So I think if she is fair, I think you do have to start her because it would be one of those games, as we've discussed, where for long periods, you probably will suffer.

You won't have tons of the ball.

But how are you going to be able to take the ball at the pitch sometimes?

And if it's a case of just Russo running into channels,

I think she can do that.

She's very good at that.

She's got good speeds, got a good understanding of her movement.

The hold-up player is really, really good.

But I think sometimes you also need somebody that can break past the defense with the ball at their feet.

And I think she's capable of doing that anywhere on the field.

So, if Lauren James is fit, I would 100% start her.

Yeah, how do you see it panning out, Johnny?

Yeah,

I agree.

I mean, actually, I was sort of on the fence,

but Nadim has convinced me.

He's just a very persuasive guy.

She will get more space.

It's a commanding voice, isn't it?

That he has.

You know, I want Nadim to

break bad news to me.

I wouldn't nade him in a white coat in a doctor's surgery when, you know, just sitting me down and going, I'm sorry, Mr.

Liu, it's worms.

She will get more space than she did against

Sweden and Italy.

And I do want to put to bed this kind of, there's this persistent slight on her that she doesn't defend or she can't defend.

Yeah, I've seen Lauren James in, I mean, I take, for example, the Champions League second leg against for Chelsea against managers.

She was incredible off the ball and on the ball.

She can clearly do it.

And I think a lot of the time

she gets scapegoated for issues that are collective, that when the team press isn't quite as focused or cohesive as it can be, because she's the eye-catching player, because I think there is a certain

view of her as

almost a slight luxury player, unfairly.

She, I think, gets, she gets unfairly blamed for a lot of defensive issues.

So I think if she can play 60 minutes, that would be great.

I think

you'd rather have her in the first 60 minutes, fresh and fit and attacking those spaces.

And I think giving Spain some problems going backwards.

It is a great video, Seb, of you and Lucy Ward.

You know, obviously the final is it's Seb and Lucy or Robin.

What do we do?

What do Football Weekly listeners do?

It's very difficult choice.

But like when that moment, and it's so it looks so great do you know do you know the cameras are on you is one question and two do you know how quickly after like a moment because obviously a commentator you know you're doing a lot of chat but no one's really going to remember most of it and then you have these moments you've got to get them right how quickly do you know i think we've really done that well there you know that was pretty good Yeah,

the thing is about anything, you know, commentary is subjective.

So at the end of the day, you think you nail something and someone thinks it's the worst thing in the world.

But I've always had the belief that the thing that probably makes commentary work is the idea of the added emotion to capture what people are watching.

So if you're watching a game, you're often watching the game, most people watching the game for entertainment or an emotional connection to the game, the support of teen, the support a nation.

So if you are not excited when a goal goes in, then what are you doing it for?

That's the baseline.

And there's different ways people can convey that.

And I think it's if algamang had scored that goal in the first five minutes to make it 1-0 i would not have said it in that manner because considering the opposition considering the state of the game but it was probably the last attack of the game realistically england had put in so many crosses into the match there was one more cross going in the goalkeeper had caught everything up to then giuliani and then she spills one for the first time the emotional tiredness italy were crying on the bench before the final whistle had gone sonchin i could feel like blood vessels were popping out of his head just just give me a full-time whistle and I'm a made man.

And

because of that, everyone's caught up in that.

So are you as a broadcaster?

So even before the game, I know before the social media team, they wanted to put, you know, a GoPro on us during the competition.

And at first, you are thinking, okay, commentators, we just try not to be in vision.

That's part of the, you know, part of the benefit.

And

when they put it there, but you do forget, you do genuinely forget.

And it was only afterwards, literally after the game that i saw um tilly who's this one of the social media people for itv i saw her and it reminded me oh yeah that camera's there but initially you're thinking oh no

that's the that's it's looking older and also because of the often fisheye lens look of a um gopro right that's your biggest worry how how round and stretched will my face look

especially especially in profile your head looks really long and deep And so you're thinking, so when it's flat on, it's better.

And then, but these are not things commentators have to worry about usually.

No.

I think it's so interesting thinking about when to pause, you know, what the co-comms is doing because you don't see it.

Rather, you sort of think, oh, there's a goal, everyone's shouting.

But clearly, like, you take the lead and Lucy's taking notes and what's happened.

And then you have a pause.

And it's, yeah, it's fascinating.

It's very hard.

I was going to add,

I'm not a musical person, but in your head, there is something ticking about pacing a football game.

And I always remember Brian, Brian, what I liked about Brian more back in the day was I called it being slightly one pace behind the action

to give yourself more emotion and it feels more natural.

Because when people are watching football, they are one pace behind the action.

Things are happening so quickly that it's like, oh, oh, oh, that feeling.

And so I purposely in commentary want to feel, get that across almost as if I'm reacting, being reactive to what's going on, Ryan, rather than preempting or being too

on top of it.

That's interesting.

Yeah, it's because that's what I used to like about Bromley.

You know, goal would go in, you'd go, and it's in there, and it's in there.

And it's in there.

And that, that aspect of it was what I loved.

It wasn't what he was saying necessarily.

It was just the, oh,

you know, David Coleman used to have it.

And then that sort of thing,

that is something that you can't really measure or explain clearly, as I've clearly explained.

Yeah, you can't in an interview go, give us your ooh.

Can you give us your Barry Davis?

You know that, give us your, you know,

so good.

All right.

Anyway, it's really good.

Well done.

And that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll do some Premier League transfer stuff.

HiPod fans of America.

Max here.

Barry's here too.

Hello.

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A proper football journalist, mate.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Ryan says, Should Chelsea actually strengthen a bit less in this transfer window?

Yeah, in advance talks to sign Javi Simmons from RB Leipzig.

News that will please Barry, who'll get to watch one of his favourite players every week if Javi Simmons gets in the 25.

For the tape, Nadum, I have Javi Simmons.

Perhaps, you know, I sort of saw him as a wide man and a 10.

And you have saved me a bit of grief by saying, no, this guy's a pure 10.

But even still, I know Chelsea Rotten Wide Bass.

They've got a lot of 10s.

Like, do they need him?

No, they absolutely do not need him, but you know, might as well get him if you can.

I don't really understand this strategy at the moment, but one thing I would say is that for whatever they've done to this point, they've now stumbled upon a team that's actually quite good.

So, this sort of like hoarding process of thinking, well, this works, this doesn't really work, this guy works.

Well, this guy's working now.

Like, just when they thought, for example, got Liam DeLap, I was like, oh, good, they've got a nine to part to like rival Jackson.

Oh, no, no, now they've got Jel Pedro as well.

And now Joe Pedro makes perfect sense.

So I think the methodology seems a bit intense and a bit heavy.

But as it stands, as I say, they're in good shape for it.

And I don't necessarily see how he fits in with the team because it feels quite clear in terms of how they want to play and

who the player is going to be at this moment.

But Chevy Simmons is a top quality player.

So if they do manage to bring him in and there's a plan for him, then I think there's a chance that he could be successful.

But again, it doesn't feel like a necessity.

Which player has felt like a necessity over the last, I don't know, two years?

Yeah.

Does it interest you, Johnny, that I suppose players always have self-belief right so they're not going to go well

i'm not sure i'll go there because i might not get a lot of game time but do you think eventually players will think because lander makes a good point they have you know they've won the club world cup however good or not you think that is they did beat psg like they have a good team but you know do Xavi Simmons thinking I'll just walk into this team because he clearly you know that's where Cole Palmer is standing yeah I've always wondered how how they sell the project to players and how players kind of rationalize it how you know say a kin and Dewsbury Hall, you know, do you think you're going to, you know, do you think you're going to play central midfield?

What is your realistic expectation?

I think for a lot of players who are joining Chelsea at the moment,

you're thinking, if you go to a lot of clubs, you think, if, if I don't, especially if you're in the prime of your career, if you're 22, 23, and you're at the top of the market and you're at the top of your value,

if you basically

miss 18, if you waste 18 months of your career, it can almost be sort of fatal

for your developer, because especially in the sort of positions where a player like Javi Simmons is going to operate, the competition in the market for that sort of player is so fierce that, you know, you see what happened to Dewsbury Hall, for example.

Or, you know, even Ajoel Felix, who, you know, three or four years ago, we're talking about as a potential ballon d'Or player and is now,

I couldn't tell you if he's still at Chelsea or not, or if he's on loan, or is he gone?

Is he still there?

Is he still on the books somewhere?

I don't know where Joel Felix is.

Where the hell is Joel Felix?

Where the hell is Joel Felix?

But players do, I think, they are slightly inured to this because the attitude that thinks, what if this goes wrong, is utterly antithetical.

The attitude that got them to the top in the first place.

You have to believe in yourself.

And I think Simmons is...

like easily easily a good enough player to to establish himself i like i don't i don't know where he fits in.

I think he

Simon's running into space, as we saw at Leipzig, absolutely deadly player.

How that translates to, I don't know, a Champions League game against a team that has got 11 men behind the ball,

I'm not sure.

But

he will, you know, he is easily good enough to establish himself.

But the thing is, we have said this about a lot of players who have gone to Chelsea that, well, obviously they've got to find a place for him somewhere.

And they don't always have to.

Yeah.

Naden, would you say, players,

what's going through their mind when they sign?

Or are they just, as Johnny says, you've just got that self-belief to have made it this far that you think, well, that's fine.

It's just another challenge.

It's a good question.

And I think some of it depends on where the player's coming from.

And I think one thing I'd mention as well from Chelsea's perspective is that they buy a lot of young players.

So as a consequence, the way that they perceive football is going to be very different.

Somebody who's maybe four, five, six years older in terms of their decision making.

And as a youngster, like you could go to Chelsea, you were playing in the Premier League.

It's a good location to live.

They're in the Champions League.

They're a team who are probably saying to the player, now, we're going to try and win the league this next season.

And you don't see people in the team and think, oh, my gosh, there's no way I can play ahead of this person or that person.

Maybe someone like Javier Simons is thinking, well, maybe I could play alongside a Cole Palmer, you know, somebody who I really respect and so on.

So

it's just, I think it's just the way that it pans out.

And it'd be a tough decision to...

And as Jonathan said, like, if you see, if you see that somebody is interested in you and you're like, well, maybe this isn't for me because I don't know if I'll be good enough to play or I don't know if I'll get any real game time.

Well, why are they asking for you to join them?

Because you feel that you are the exception.

You've actively been headhunted and now you're thinking, well, maybe I won't play.

I think that's a...

That's a mentality which just doesn't exist.

And you could call it naive and so on.

But if we were all in the same position, we'd be doing the same things.

So again, the fact that these are young players, the ones who can think in that manner, the ones who can sort of sign a five, six, seven year deal.

So it guarantees like a level of like job security within that as well.

Not necessarily even the financial side, but actually on reflection, do you remember when those deals were first happening?

We thought, like, how could you sign a 25-year deal, basically?

Well, now that they talk about the levels of money involved with those deals, how it's lower than, say, you would expect for a club in that manner, all of a sudden you don't have these situations where they're going to be struggling to remove play, to let players go.

So maybe that's the security that comes with some players when they join the club.

They know that if it doesn't work out, firstly, they'll still be on good money, but secondly, there'll be a way out for them should the worst case scenario happen and they're not going to be playing at the club.

So I think

Chelsea might be cooking it, you know.

And it's a really weird thing to think.

I just think of the 10, 11 elite podcast hosts on The Guardian's books that just don't get a looking.

And, you know, if they'd had their time again 2018, 2019, they just wouldn't have signed those

long-term deals.

Buyer Munich are pursuing Louis Diaz from Liverpool, who are reported to be looking.

at Rodrigo to replace him.

He would cost him about 70 million.

I mean, Seb, they've sent a lot of money Liverpool, haven't they?

already close to 300 million after ekatike arrives i would be excited if i was a liverpool fan we know that not all transfers work out but like it's a they seem to be in a good place well you know look we know transfers get supporters excited they create an expectation if you don't sign a player it's all over you know liverpool barely did anything last summer and then they won the league and this is An interesting concept of all of this is the idea of stability versus dreams versus excitement excitement in football we're talking about chelsea here who if chelsea don't win the league next season nobody's going to be saying to them well you know the project's done the project's finished it's over or it should come to an end or they should even change the manager necessarily as long as they're if they're constantly buying players freshening their team up then it's a new start of a new cycle um where you look at a team like arsenal people are saying right let's put the cherry on top if arteta doesn't win next season arsenal football club is at an end it's all over they cannot ever be involved in title races again.

And so it's interesting now, because Liverpool have made these signings, the expectation shifts and people are going to be thinking, well, Wurtz is now going to, he has to dominate the league.

And if they don't, Slot's going to be under pressure after five, six games because they haven't won them all and they haven't battered everybody.

I always can't wait for the season to start.

Because the biggest issue I have with the transfer win, there's lots of issues, is the way people are looking at the money side of it.

So they'll say a club spent, oh, this club spent 300 million.

We've got no idea what's come out of the club's coffers at a particular moment in time, what their balance sheet is showing really.

There are some people who are very good at looking into this stuff, but most people don't.

They'll say, well, if we sell Louis Diaz for 70 million, then that will give us 80 million to spend on Rodriguez.

And there's so much more money.

coming in and out.

There's agents' fees.

There's the wages themselves that people forget, the impact they have on the team.

And so I think from Liverpool's point of view, I think the excitement for them is the idea of when they always say, you know, improve from a position of strength.

And

have Liverpool done that?

It's interesting.

They have in some ways, but they've also lost an important player.

They're going through, it might be a change of style they're going to have to do with the players they've bought.

So who knows?

That's probably where the excitement comes in.

The transfer window, honestly, I mean, it just,

it really does.

It just, I'm just screaming, bring on that first game when everybody's dreams come

come crashing down crashing to happen crashing down Johnny Arsenal views has a question says now that Ange is gone how long until Johnny Lou hates on Thomas Frank quite a lot of Australians were annoyed with you for your piece on Ange they all told me about it as the Ange envoy so do you want to apologize to do you want to apologize to me Johnny no this is your fault

we've established that you set the trap I'll walk straight out I'll walk straight into it Yeah,

the content was fantastic.

I believe the click-throughs were off the scale.

And my reputation in that great footballing hotbed of Australia is now mud.

Sorry, I can't, even now, I can't help it.

I don't know.

I just keep walking.

Do you think it was?

Because interesting, like, because you went quite hard on him and like about

sort of him bullshitting.

And all managers bullshit all the time.

But was it because Ange had sort of said, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to change.

This is, you know, like it was sort of so evident with him more than other managers who all are constantly lying to us the whole time.

You see, you're doing it again.

You're setting up the trap.

He's gone.

He's gone.

He's going to Saudi.

He's going to Central Coast Mariners or, you know, I don't know.

Like, no,

is it true that all managers bullshit?

I guess so.

It is.

I think it is.

I think it is.

It is an industry based on.

And especially in terms of coaching, where your brand is so, it's so valuable.

It's such an important tool in your armory you know not just when you're looking for jobs but when when you're trying to keep them as well and yeah i mean the fact that he came he basically came from what we have to say is obscurity you know 15 20 years ago nobody knows who he is 10 years ago i think you know most

you know he he's he's the manager of the socceroos who are losing every every single game in the world cup so That branding has been incredibly important to him.

And I don't think he gets where he is unless he can tell a story and he tells a great story about himself he he is able to sell himself in a way that for example graham potter isn't and that's that's a real failing of graham potter that he can't tell a story to fans and and i think the media that that almost makes you want to root for him like i think it it's it's incredible how many neutrals uh were just really invested in the idea of Angel Postakoglu as a concept, wanted him to do well.

You know, he got no strong feelings about Spurs, but you like this guy and you want to do well that is a skill and and i think a lot of a lot of what i wrote in that that column was this is a this is a talent just as much as being able to lay out training cones or come up with a tactical plan is a talent and this is this is his super talent there are so many great great tactical coaches out there but i don't think there's anyone who can who can tell a story like him how do you feel about the thomas frank era i like him i i think he's uh i think thomas frank again is a very decent bloke um i think there was a question mark over how he's

again it's a big step into the unknown for him how he deals with not just a bigger squad but bigger expectations and a and

a team that's basically expected to compete for what is it five trophies this season um

like the early the early messages have been have been good but i think as he as he himself has acknowledged this is the honeymoon period whatever you say is is gospel everyone will will laugh and and smile and uh but it's when it's when things get tough i think we're that's where we're going to see the making of him luke says following the in-depth analysis of the predictions in the last pod, do you think that on the Guardian Football Weekly Weekly, they're doing their own prediction league on which Guardian Football Weekly pundits position where?

How many would have had Barry top?

Is that like when Leicester won the league?

Yeah, I got a message from Barry saying, I'm very excited to know 13% more about football than Jonathan Wilson, and he will never live that down.

James says, can Man of the People Max recover from today's admission that he does his big shop in Waitrose?

Oh, give me a break, James.

I'm only back for two months.

They've widened the aisles at Barbican Waitrose.

It it was really and moved the tills i presume all for me it was very exciting um we'll finish with this from luke uh who says long time listener first and hopefully one time emailing uh not planning on a vasectomy uh my son was born yesterday Tuesday, July the 22nd at 5.12 p.m.

This is after 30 hours of my wife being in labor.

Lost track of contractions and a few room changes due to overcrowding, unfortunately.

And thankfully, she got a C-section and both mum and baby are fine.

I'm emailing because during her C-section, she had to be put under anesthetic and I had to leave and I had to spend 20 minutes just on my own in a hallway, fearing the worst and feeling alone.

I had my phone on me and the notification was delayed that you had a new episode out from Monday.

I got to the Lucy Ward scale of how tall a goalkeeper should be before the doctor came out and said everything was okay.

I haven't had it before and hopefully never again where I needed and understood all the emails you get and the support that you give just by talking about football and nonsense.

I'll never be able to thank you enough.

But just keeping doing what you're doing, lads and lasses, because you don't know the next time someone is going to need to hear Jonathan Wilson talk about tournament personalities.

Thank you from a first-time dad, Luke.

Love to you, Luke.

And to Mrs.

Luke and your son as well.

Speaking of kids, Seb,

your daughter reviewed, you know, we were talking about Nadim talking about his kids as well.

And your daughter, who's not a massive football fan, has become, has got excited and you wanted to play a bit of her actually watching you do your job.

Is she complimenting you or England?

That's the question.

Oh, good crush.

I never really thought about her

complimenting me because she really does.

She's a bit of a, I say she's a bit of a fair weather football fan.

She actually started playing

football for a girls team nearby, but she only started playing it because her friend was playing it.

And she made me buy all the bits and pieces.

And then she was there for a couple of weeks.

And then her friend left her.

She didn't bother.

And she sometimes doesn't really watch games or she pretends she watches games.

And then she, you know, I question her and I quiz her intently on every aspect.

And she's got it.

I've got it.

She can't explain why.

She can't remember where Sergio Ramos is.

Yeah, exactly.

That Kirk is, Flying wingbacks is going to fit into the Liverpool system.

But it really did make me, reminded me, and I think we do need reminding of this impact of big tournament moments, what they have on people.

And, you know, Ajamang Soaring, when she did, it was, it seemed to inspire my daughter in so many ways.

She was so excited after that game that she wanted the final to be tomorrow.

And she wanted that first for football.

And you see that in an

eight-year-old, you just think,

this is the bug that gets people.

There's always a moment that gets people and they're hooked into anything and I think even in sport my moment was Frank Bruno against Tyson in the late 80s just that the emotion of that particular fight and I was getting right behind Frank in that and that I'm so gutted afterwards distraught that he'd lost you know and boxing so big in that manner you know you know literally on the ground the fighter um and i thought was this was that her moment did adjumang

create that moment in my daughter?

And I wonder if that's the case for lots of young children, you know, children across the country, particularly with this tournament, girls.

Yeah.

Well, let's play her eight-second voice note.

It seems self-indulgent, but I'm sure I'd do the same.

This is a nice way to end the podcast.

Here is

Hutchinson Jr.

on that game.

That was the best game ever.

Really good.

Thank you for your input, both Hutchinsons.

Thank you, Seb.

Thanks for coming on.

No worries.

Thank you.

Thanks, Nathan.

Pleasure as always.

Thanks, Johnny.

Thanks for having me.

Pootbook Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

We'll be back on Monday.

This is The Guardian.