England leave it very late but Euro 2025 final beckons: Football Weekly

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Oof, England into the final of the Euros.

They were seconds away from being knocked out, but let's face it, the 96th and the 119th minutes are not bad times to score.

England worked great, flat in the first half, better in the second without creating much, and we called for it on Monday.

Get it launched to Adjumang.

Michelle Adjermang with another crucial goal.

She almost won it in extra time with a beautiful lob before Chloe Kelly, hero of the last Euro, scored the rebound after her penalty was saved.

It was soft, but it was given agony for the Lime Greens, as the Italians have always been known.

Also today, we have an Arsenal contingent on the pod, so we'll discuss Yokores and the rest of their spending.

In other transfer news, is Emi Martinez going to Man United?

Is Johan Wisser joining the Brentford Exodus?

And Granite Jack as the next man going to Sunderland.

Rangers start their season with a win in the Champions League.

Palace Appeal, their European relegation, and the regulator is now the law.

Someone with far too much time on their hands has rated our previews of last season.

As always, we'll answer your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Nikki Bandini, welcome.

Commiserations.

Morning, thank you.

Noreen Chowdhury, hello.

Hello.

Jordan Jarrett Bryan is here.

Hey, Jordan.

Morning, mate.

How are you?

I'm very good.

Joining us from Geneva.

Was that the game last night, Nick Ames?

All right, Nick.

Hello, Max.

Yes.

Good.

Luke says, has Barry taken the week off?

Because it's coming home.

Yeah, here we go again.

England two, Italy one.

Nick, you were there.

I mean, it was a sort of another, it was very similar in a way, I guess, to the Sweden game where England didn't really turn up for quite a lot of it.

But I don't know if that matters anymore.

I don't know what that means, but it doesn't matter.

We're in the final.

I've got a clue what it means either, Max.

That was absolutely bunkers, wasn't it?

Just

another of those nights of white knuckle tournament football in a stadium here in Geneva that is brilliant for holding the noise in.

So it was another full house, 26,000 or so, I think.

And

England fans and Italian fans as well.

tremendous voice and by the end everyone is just shattered yet again for the second time in five days and um

what does it mean like you

you can look at it in two ways: that this team has got such a resolve and certainty and confidence that they can find that way through at the end, even though for long periods they have frankly.

I mean, England were labored all night, really.

I don't really think they had a good spell or sparkling spell in the game.

There's a couple of chances first half.

Um, I think Toon had one, James who went off at half-time.

A couple of chances for Lauren Hemp shortly after the interval.

And apart from that, it was all scratchy, scratchy, desperate stuff.

And Adrian comes on, and

what I loved about her equaliser, which

came straight after England had had a corner in the about the 94th and 95th minute.

And the keeper Hamilton's up, and we're all like, okay, this is the moment.

This is going to be the one.

And then she,

you know, Chloe Curly, fantastic player, but she she puts it in the side nothing and it it was face palms or invisible face palms everywhere and you think that's it and then a few moments later um

yeah to to go back to my train of thought adjamang it gets cast almost as this battering ram agent of chaos but the composure for a 19 year old to connect a loose ball in the box at a moment like that when it's on the line and the whole country is watching you two whole countries are watching you and not to snatch at it but to take the touch and pick the spot and drill it 19 years old and not not played much that much domestic football at all except out on loan at Brighton absolutely extraordinary so then the the the lid goes off the whole place obviously like the subs are cascading down the bio line you know the

touchline the classic scenes And then you think, okay, they're going to do this now.

Italy, who, I mean, I'm sure Nikki will talk a bit more about, but were fantastic.

I thought they were so well drilled and played it nearly perfectly.

It was tactically spot on from a team that is sort of technically inferior.

They looked out on their feet.

And then fast forward, Adrian again shows what a wonderful, subtle player she is too, by lobbying against the woodwork, which was a fantastic effort.

And then you think, we've got...

got the penalty rigmarole again you're all ready for that and then it did take a penalty but only one penalty and kind of a bit of a penalty because um chloe kelly steps up and

again just puts it not wide enough of a keeper parried she's sharp enough to rebound and then all hell blakes loose again and still trying to make sense of it but are you are you coming down on the side of it's written in massage they they just always find something or is it more they're going to get found out by quite possibly Spain on Sunday who are quite capable of dishing out a clinic if you're on a sort of five or six out of ten which England had been for most of the tournament.

I mean that penalty Nikki it is so soft isn't it?

I mean I'm I'm watching it delighted that it's been given and then I just don't see in maybe I don't see enough replays but it's one of those where you think if that if that was against me I'd be pretty I mean the Italian manager was furious and I would have been.

Yeah I don't know what to say with the penalty.

I think it's one of those that

it is a foul.

If you do it somewhere else in the pitch it is a foul.

She is grabbing her and and i do think severe initiated the contact even though there was some contact both ways and i want to shit back i think she does um it's one of those fouls that um i i think a lot of referees in the penalty area in the semi-final with two minutes left of extra time a lot of them are going to go you know what it's not it's not worth it i think a lot of referees wouldn't have given it and i think a lot of referees I think any referee who hadn't given it, I don't think VAR would have overturned it.

I don't think it would have been clear and obvious to the VAR booth if it hadn't been given.

given.

But I think the ones it was given, VAR was never going to overturn it because unfortunately,

as much as it breaks my heart, it is a foul.

I think it's really hard.

It's really easy to say it's soft because I think it was soft.

And I think if it had gone the other way, I think you would have absolutely had everyone in England kicking off about it.

So it's completely fair to call it soft this way.

But I think it's one of those that is soft and feels worse because of when it is and how it happens in the context of the match rather than because it's an outrageous call.

It isn't an outrageous call.

I think there is a foul there.

It's just a soft one.

Yeah, Mark Luckenberg on, I'm not sure who he was broadcasting for, said he wouldn't have given it because, you know, that's not how to decide a game, which is clearly not how referees are meant to referee football matches.

You know, that's not how it works.

Jordan, you were at Croydon Box Park.

You have our sympathies.

How much beer was flying around when that penalty, when the rebound went in, or when Adjumang scored?

Lots of ginatonics more so than beers, if I'm okay.

But not as much beers as you probably see in some of the men's games.

I mean, the best moment of this whole game for me, guys, wasn't even necessarily the winner from Chloe Kelly.

It was, and I lived in Italy for five years, it was when the Italian manager, I think it was when the penalty was conceded.

Obviously, we can't hear what he's saying, but I'm pretty sure I saw him mouth va fan cool on camera, and that was the bit where I was like, yep, he's lost his head tier.

Um, I thought this was a really, really good game, but for maybe not all great reasons.

I thought England, for large parts of the first half, were actually quite poor.

I think Lauren James had a couple of half chances that she could have done better with maybe.

Roos had a poor miss.

But I thought the tempo from England for large parts of the game was really just tepid and slow.

And I was really disappointed with the lack of intensity from their play.

It took them quite a long time, 70 minutes onwards, I noticed, before they really just thought, sod it, as you love to say, Match, get it launched, but also get, go two at the back.

They had three and even fought the back for way longer than they needed to.

Italy weren't a massive threat, so they didn't need to have three or four players at the back.

Just go, you know, get pushed another player from defense into midfield.

And that really annoyed me.

One of my favorite things, probably my favorite thing in football is a great first touch.

And forgive me, I forgot my Italian player's name who scored.

But for her goal, that first touch is so, so good.

And even Ajimajang, her first touch, as Nick mentioned, was really good.

She got it out of her feet and a great strike, which is a double nutmeg.

So when the gods are with you, the gods are with you on another day that gets blocked by the defender or the goalkeeper.

So,

you know, the luck on the fortune was definitely with her on that particular moment.

But I think for England, if they're going to win this final, be it Spain or Germany, they'll have to play a lot better because I don't think in large part they actually played that well.

I think they were quite fortunate.

And had Italy not lost their heads in that last 10 minutes, there was an opportunity when a player had a chance to either run into the corner or pass it inside to two of her colleagues.

The player shot and it went wide.

And I thought to myself, I'd be absolutely spitting blood if I was the Italian manager because that's an opportunity where you've just got to run into the corner and run the clock down.

And then you never know.

And I think the penalty is a clear penalty.

I'd slightly disagree with both of you.

I think it's a quite obvious penalty.

And I think it's an example of them, again, just panicking and not keeping their composure.

And if England are going to do better in the final, definitely if it's Spain they're playing the final, they'll have to play a lot better.

And my final point would be that there's this whole discussion around whether Serena Wiegman is getting her selection right or wrong, because she seems to be getting it right in that she's rectifying it with her substitutions.

But I don't know if that can always work.

I don't know if that's always going to get you through, because as I mentioned, I don't think they play particularly well until Chloe and Ajim Zang came on in that second half and changed the game.

And I also love how raw those two players are.

Chloe and Ajimajan feel like they're not FA groomed tactical players.

They feel like they're very off the cuff.

Just give me the ball.

I'm going to do something a little bit raw.

I'm going to take on a player.

I'm going to be a little bit, a little bit rogue.

And I kind of like that about those two players as well.

Notice you wanted to talk about Ajimae, who has had such an impact in the last couple of games.

Yeah, completely.

She really feels as if she's had this breakthrough tournament and just like looking at the fact like she

Her debut is so recent and she scored like, is it three goals in four games or something?

It's amazing.

But

I think especially in the context of of like this issue about diversity and particularly in the women's game and also in the context of of jess carter's um experiences and and racism on social media i the other day i was i was reading an article in the guardian by um anita asante it was it was from 2022 and uh she she was basically talking about the lack of diversity in in the women's game and in particular the lack of lack of black players and it was it was so predominantly white she she cited like loads of reasons that that that might be the case.

One being

how white the coaching sort of

setup is in the women's game.

Another one was about how WSL teams seem to have copied the men's game in terms of having training facilities in rural sort of like areas in suburbs.

And obviously, those are predominantly or far more white compared to inner city areas.

And then you get into a whole issue about how difficult it is for certain demographics

to sort of travel to training and travel to trials.

And at that time,

when she and other people sort of brought this up, obviously the England team were doing really well and they experienced a big backlash to that.

Oh, it's all on merit.

We're like, why are you bringing this into it?

Which is obviously sort of like

really stupid-headed.

But

I think when you've got a breakout style like Ajimang, I think it's that thing of if you see yourself in the people who are having success, if you see yourself um on the pitch and and becoming sort of national heroes and almost transcending the sport in some way that can inspire um and and and that's i think i think that's what's particularly exciting about adjumang in in terms of like hopefully she will

she already feels as if she's going to be a transcendent sort of like uh individual in terms of the game even though she's so young and even though she's so early in her career but like it's just exciting the fact that that this could sort of like you could you could have like lots of girls of different sort of demographics that sort of look at her and plays like her and kind of think well it's actually like uh i finally see someone like me on the pitch doing it so i think i think that's what i find most exciting about that i think it's um just a shame that we have to have someone like ashuman who who has to be excellent and almost a star to inspire other girls to to want to be in this particular england setup i i would love it to just her just to be a squad player and just not

getting the you know the crucial goals um for that to be enough to just be able to see her on the the bench, for example.

She's a phenomenal player and she's a great talent.

She's doing really, really well.

But it just feels like the bar for

there has to be a...

a star player, a black star player, for that to inspire other ethnic minority girls.

And I think that's a shame.

Why can't she just be an okay player and that be enough?

Do you know what I mean?

For her to inspire other girls and other generations to want to be England footballers.

They feel like we need this pin-up star.

We looked at her.

If she hadn't scored yesterday, would the conversation be around inspiring other black girls other british asian girls into wanting to be footballers do you know what i mean i feel that just the bar of expectation for inspiring other girls for black girls is so much higher than than than everybody else and i just think that's so unfair but you but but you you know as well as i do jordan like that that's always been the case anyone of course any any person of colour or any any sort of like um ethnic minority like it's not like like sadly and and this is this pisses me off as much i'm sure as it does you being mediocre is sort of like seen as being less than mediocre and it's this idea of like it almost relates to like the good immigrant thing of like of like you

have to be the you have to be exceptional and then you're accepted and then you're heroized.

But

if you're just at a level where like say a white player is, then suddenly you're not one of the good ones.

And

I think sadly, like that's that's the that's the nature of things.

And what I'd hate is if you've got a situation now where you've got players who are legitimately complaining about racism on social media because of the colour of their skin.

And I don't want basically thinly veiled racists to turn around and say, oh, well, look at Angela Man, she's getting all the praise,

which is a totally

wrong-headed way of looking at it.

But it sort of points to what you're saying in terms of like, why does it always have to be exceptional sort of people of color who are who are heroized?

Nick, there's an interesting discussion about Vegman and her changes and when she makes them and when she brought, you know, Kelly and Ajamang on and whether she should do it half an hour earlier or actually you wait until

the Italians are knackered and A, think, oh, we're close here.

And then you sort of hit them with the chaos, as Jordan called it.

Because at the time, you're thinking, you've got to change something.

I felt like I'm yelling at Wiegman like I'm yelling at Southgate.

Yeah, completely.

I'll talk about one of the changes first in the context of the very instructive discussion that we've just had, because it's worth pointing out that Jess Carter did come onto the pitch right at the end.

She had been named among the subs.

She came on towards the end, and you know, it can get lost in the maelstrom of those late moments of a chaotic game like that, but she got an absolutely incredible reception, which was just

a really nice moment, I think, and a deserved moment.

And at the start of the game as well, it was quite well documented.

The players opted not to take the knee because I think they're looking for more substantive action rather than gestures and and i think we

we have to go along with them on that because they know how they feel and how the situation has affected them and just and um the subs instead linked arms on the touchline in in you know a a visible show of solidarity so so that was a really important and good moment that you know can can get lost in the swirl regarding the other subs yeah

i i mean people

with like 15 20 minutes to go were definitely starting to agitate for rieman to start shaking things up a bit more they were toiling as as as we've all said already um but she does seem to time it well and to be fair um the game breakers came on and broke the game and i think you just have to trust that they understand how long certain players can go for they've got the data They've got the stuff like that.

They can see signs in the opposing players when they're tiring, which Italy were clearly, I think, in the last 10 minutes or so.

And I think, yeah, you kind of can only trust the manager's nouse and judgment in terms of the timing of those subs because it's worked out so far quite spectacularly.

It always comes to this over and over again in football, doesn't it?

As journalists, reporters, broadcasters, storytellers, we always come down in the end to having to fill our narratives around what actually happened on the pitch, right?

And

similar things happened actually with the England men's team, didn't they?

At the Euros, when you've got goals coming out of nowhere in injury time, suddenly a tournament that could have been a terrible tournament becomes an all-right tournament.

And I think this tournament for England does feel like one that has been on the margins of being a very different tournament.

And now they could still win the whole thing.

And yeah, that's partly the stories we have to tell.

It's partly the reality of

sport and great players who have great moments.

And in all this conversation about Ajimang, I think worth saying she didn't just score a goal and almost score a second incredible goal.

She also held the ball up.

She also worked for the team.

She also put herself.

She was really impressive.

I mean, something else for a teenager.

But of course,

I feel like because we haven't really talked about it from the Italy lens, and I do want to bring that into it as well, because they've had an extraordinary tournament.

I do remember at the start of this tournament chatting with Susie and saying, could they be a dark horse?

And I was being a bit optimistic, but

I didn't think they could win it.

I certainly didn't think that.

And I would have been not putting it in the conversation even really to get to a final.

So I think the semi-final was the top of the ambitions.

And ultimately, they were moments away from getting this across the line and going to the final.

In some ways, I wonder if...

almost like inter in the Champions League this season where the story almost looks worse because you go to the final and get hammered almost in some ways could this end up being a happier ending for them because I think if they go to that final without Giudelli who is looking very much like she's pulled the hamstring, losing that sharp end, say it's Spain again.

Spain already outplayed them pretty comprehensively in the groups, but they managed to make it scary for Spain because they had that sharp edge.

If they lose that sharp edge, does it become something else?

But I do think

it's a remarkable, remarkable tournament for Italy.

It has a bit of bittersweet for me because when I look at it, and I just had this really fascinating conversation earlier between Jordan and Nuz about representation and how much that matters.

I mean, obviously, this is going to be a huge sliding doors moment, I think, of opportunity for Italian football because this is an amount of focus that there really hasn't been on the women's game, probably since the 2019 World Cup in Italy.

And bear in mind, Italian football, women's football has gone professional since then.

But then I look at the stars of this run.

And yes, Sofia Cantore has been magic and she's off to Washington.

I think she's going to be a great player for a number of years.

But Cristiano Dierelli is 35, Bad Barra Bonansea, who of course scored iconic gold against Australia in 2019, she's 34.

That Juventus attack, all three of them

together this season, might not be part of the story at the next

major tournament, the next World Cup.

there is a question hanging over it of whether or not this group can carry it forward with quite the excitement that you want them to and so it falls to is the Italian Football Federation going to do everything it can to capitalize on this moment and and galvanise the movement and get more girls and young women involved.

And that's the bit that I wish I had more faith in the Italian Football Federation in general than I do at the moment.

So we'll see on that front.

But it definitely has been a tournament that I think has captured the imagination more than anything since 2019,

which is an opportunity at the very least for Italian football.

Meanwhile, Nick, England, this is their third major final in a row.

And it's Serena Wiegman's fifth in a row.

I mean, that's actually extraordinary, isn't it?

Yeah, she knows how to do it, but she's a winner, and

just

even the way she answers questions in the press conference afterwards, just so calmly and authoritatively.

And it's almost like, okay, what are we all worrying about?

She's got that edge and that self-assuredness, and also that

sheer pragmatism and sort of dogmatism almost that you need.

She's completely certain about the way she wants to do things and the way that England should approach these very hair-raising situations.

And yeah, like, you know, her record is completely, well, almost unimpeachable.

I think if they'd gone out last night, which they almost did, and by the way, we haven't mentioned that

there was a massive moment four minutes before the 90 when

Hannah Hampton made a

astonishing point blank say from, I think it was Severini who later conceded the pen, if I'm not wrong.

That would have sent England out, would have given Italy the win that at that point they deserved, frankly.

I think if that moment goes another way, they're out, and

there's a bit of an inquest about what we've talked about already, some of the performances, some of the lack of patterns, some of the way that

a lot of a player for me in my last few games has gone a bit aimlessly down my channels at times.

There's not been that structure, that sophistication.

But at the end of the day,

Weaven gets it done.

And that's because she knows how to do it.

And

it's an astonishing record.

And now we'll have to see whether she can go one better on Sunday.

I'm going to the Spain Germany game tonight.

Very interested to see how that goes.

An informed

Spain team that does give you a chance at the back, but normally blows you away at the front against a Germany team that has shown a lot more doggedness in getting this far than maybe we expected of this particular Germany side and missing a few key players too.

So I'm off to that after this and

you know hoping to see a few signs that if England do get it together on Sunday in a way that they haven't really yet,

then Serena can be lifting another trophy.

We haven't really touched on the most important part of the evening.

Was anyone else as outraged as I was to see England Italy not be white shirts against blue shirts?

I mean this

it really it just because you know it just takes you you're just watching it going this game could look more every moment of it could look more spectacular than it is and I mean I and I don't know if this is you know bias but I thought at least the England third kit is that or second kit is kind of nice like the Italy one is

it's an abomination what are they doing I I was very sad about it Nikki so that kit is

a deliberate choice to have a kit that is specifically for the women's team.

It's a kit that was designed.

So there's a kit that the men's team don't wear, the women's team do wear to give them something that's, I guess,

unique to them.

I tend to agree I don't really love the colour.

There's a lot of um marketing waffle that came with it about it representing certain art styles and mint colours which represent the natural world.

I don't know.

A lot of that read to me like Adidas trying to flog some shirts.

But what minty world are they living in?

The land of Colgate.

What is this?

What is this extra Wrigley's extra world that we live in?

But

yes, it upset me.

Chris also says, should we watch the final on BBC with Robin Cowan Cowan on comms or on ITV with Seb Hutchinson and Lucy Ward?

It's a football weekly split.

Impossible.

How do we make that choice?

How do we choose?

We have to get two tellies and listen to them all.

Anyway,

that'll do.

We'll obviously cover Germany-Spain on tomorrow's pod, but that'll do for part one.

Thanks, Nick.

You have a nice day.

Thank you, Max.

I'll try.

Good stuff.

Nick Ames there out in Geneva.

Here we'll be at the Germany-Spain game tonight.

That'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll begin talking Arsenal.

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Barry's here too.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Huge news, everybody.

On the 11th of September, we are doing a live show, our first one for two years.

We're at the Troxy.

I think, hopefully not, because nobody wants to come or wanted to come for two years.

Geography being the main issue.

We're playing the Troxy in London.

We would like you and almost 2,000 people to come along.

Seems ambitious.

How much time have we got?

Basically, two months to flog these tickets.

But I don't want to sound desperate.

It will sell fast.

We will, you know, we will have a brilliant panel, of course,

and try and get in some cameos, a big half-time show.

If you are not unable to come to London, you can live stream it from wherever you are sitting.

So every single person listening to this can come, basically.

So just don't let us down.

You know, don't, I don't want to be angry.

I'd just be disappointed.

Theguardian.com slash football weekly live.

It will be lovely to see you all the 11th of September at the Troxy in East London.

We'll put a link in the pod description.

We'll put it all over the Instagram.

I'll tweet about it every hour and annoy everybody.

Let's do a bit of Arsenal.

Nikki and Jordan are both here, of course.

Are you happy with business so far, Jordan?

Oh, yes.

yes, I am happy with what we've done so far.

We've addressed, I think, some key holes that are going to be needed to be filled if we're going to win this damn Premier League.

I think Zubamendi is a phenomenal signing.

I think he might actually prove to be the better signing in a weird way than Jokarez, which is

all but done.

I think he's a lovely player that I think will just bring the dynamos into our game that I think we need

in the middle.

The mascara deal, I think that's been done.

I think that's a future proofing signing for the next couple of years, but it's a good backup there.

Kepa, I'm not a big lover of, but I think as a number two, I think you're going to struggle to get a better number two goalkeeper

than Kepa.

I would like a left winger.

I mean, that's me being a bit greedy.

We've spent like a billion pounds already, but I would like a left-winger because I'm not convinced that Martinelli and Trossard are the answers.

If the bar now is to win the title or the Champions League, I don't know if you do it with one of those two as your starting left winger.

But otherwise, I think Arsenal are looking like they're very, very strong.

Defensively, we've always been good.

I think defensively, I think we're pretty solid.

I think the problem has been just creating a little bit more and having that guy that can put the ball in the back of the net in those really key moments across the season.

And also depth.

It's four competitions.

It's a long season.

I think the depth I think we're seeing addressed by Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea, and Arsenal.

I think they know there's a lot of games coming this season.

So I think that's something I'm really pleased that

we've addressed.

But I think mentality as well before Nikki comes in.

i think mentality is equally an issue as just transfers we can buy great players that's all will and good but i think the arsenal mindset has to really change somehow if they have to really go to somewhere this season that they've not been before if they really want to get the job done yeah i think i think mentality and and

winning is such a hard thing to pin down in football, isn't it?

Like, I've heard a lot of this from people in the reporting of the Goku Shining Or it's a mentality monster.

It's everyone's favourite phrase, mentality monster coming in.

But I mean,

he's certainly used to winning, isn't he, from sporting?

And of course, Madweke now arriving as a world champion from Chelsea.

I mean, that feels a very odd way of framing it.

But hey, they did just win something.

I think I'm the same as Jordan.

It's hard not to feel good about this summer.

if the Goku SDL gets across the line.

I think last time I came on, Max, you asked me about Arsenal's transfers.

And I was saying, well, I really need a striker before I'm going to feel good about it.

And this deal that seems to drag on forever and ever at time of recording, we're still waiting for for it to be official but it does sound like it's very close now so it just is a big a big issue and it has been a big issue and and i think no matter which way you cut it and no matter how much love i can have as a fan for mikel marino that's not the player you want starting up front as your um as your number nine in key points of the season on a consistent basis so certainly getting that number nine in is a big thing i think the greedy part of me almost goes okay that's the number nine we want as our first choice number nine and also where's the second number nine?

Because you have injuries and you kind of need someone who isn't Mikel Marino still to be leading the line at other times.

But

in terms of progress, in terms of addressing things that the club needed,

I think it's been a very positive summer.

And I think even Madweke, who I think has definitely had mixed response from Arsenal's fan base, does give something different in terms of the way he

runs at players and just

maybe creating again different axes of attack when when we do come up against those

very deep lines that Arsenal quite often end up against.

So yeah, I think it's you'd be being very churlish as we just have been to pick holes in the things that we still want given how much has been invested.

Yeah.

Mentality monster is a funny phrase, isn't it?

Just imagine that's the last thing you'd want a friend to be, you know.

What's Dave like?

He's a mentality monster.

I don't want to go out.

I don't want to spend an evening with him.

Sounds exhausting, doesn't it?

Noz, we got a little bit of criticism on Monday for, I mean, for laughing at Manchester United again, basically, but being a bit sniffy about Brian and Bumo's fee and not Ekatike's when one has proven it in the Premier League, you know, albeit for one brilliant season and some other quite good ones.

Do you think we just assume now that United's recruitment is bad and Liverpool's is good before they've even kicked a ball?

You go, well, he's gone to many nights, so therefore it's a bad signing.

I think it's interesting because because obviously man like you you look at the past and you base your opinions on that and and it's true that manchester united and old traffic is a graveyard for any talented player and as soon as they leave that they're free uh and and and they're and they're far better but i i do think this is a different transfer window for united in just in terms of um it's it kind of feels like sensible solid uh players in because how many transfer windows have you seen where you kind of think oh who united going to sign and then before you know it, they've spent like 180 million.

Yeah, you kind of think, it's like you do a full waitrose shop and you spend 150 quid and you can't make one dinner.

And you're like, how does this happen?

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

You come home and it's like, yeah, but you didn't even get the milk.

But like, it's, it's, it's, but, but, but it's that, it's that thing of like, uh, and even after a few games, you will see five new players and it just feels like the exact same team.

So what I like about this transfer window is like, I think United have needed to sort of like invest in players who have proven in the Premier League.

I think that's been a massive thing because the reason why players have been great before they've come to United and been bad and then good again after they've left is quite often

they have flourished in

different leagues and struggled in the Premier League for various different reasons.

Like Anthony's a great example.

And then go to a league that suits them and play really well.

So I'm Kunya and Buemo, like they are, they are, you're basically buying goals, you are buying Premier League experience, and you know that you will get the play that you bought to a large extent.

And also, I think another big thing about United is

we've always tended to buy players who are good but don't fit the system.

And now you've got a manager who's not like Ten Hag, who's a pragmat, who was a pragmatist.

You've got a manager who is a systems manager and wants particular players for particular positions.

And that looks like the players that he's buying.

So, so I'm excited.

Whereas I am intrigued about Liverpool's almost change of tack.

I put on social media that

I asked Liverpool fans slightly mischievously, oh, how'd you feel about this?

Like, you've had so much success, and now you've like you like with this transfer strategy, and now you're buying these players for massive money.

How'd you feel about that?

And obviously, they're all chuffed and sort of over the moon, but

I do think it's a change of strategy, and I just wonder how that'll work.

Arteta, Jordan, said that he thinks there are nine teams that can win the Premier League.

That seems a stretch to me.

It doesn't seem it is a stretch.

Nine teams.

I mean, who has he got in that nine?

That's so bizarre.

No, that's clearly wrong.

There aren't nine teams.

I think there's three teams.

I think the top three will contest for the title this season.

I know everyone's getting excited about Chelsea.

Until they sign a goalkeeper and a defender, centre-back, I'm not taking taking Chelsea as serious title contenders

I think there's work that needs to be done there I think their back four or their back five including their goalkeeper is good I don't think it's better than the top three so no I think there's only three teams that will do it but I think the the clutch below that may actually be more interesting than the actual top three I think there's maybe five or six clubs that could all grab that that fourth spot um and am i right in saying that five teams again qualify for the Champions League or was that just last season?

Is it as if well?

Well, I don't know what happens.

Doesn't the coefficient depend on what happens in European competition this year?

But because there are so many teams in European competition this year that maybe are.

I'm not a co-expert.

Where's Lars when you need?

I'm not a coefficient expert.

We'll leave that to Lars for next week.

But

I think it's looking like it could be a very good season.

But at the same time, with so many of the teams in that kind of middle tier getting pillaged for their best players, it could go back to like old school Premier League where the top four or five just kind of pull away and the middle group are just a little bit meh where in the last two or three years we've seen the likes of Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford, I mean a fear for them, all really be quite competitive.

Fulham, I fear that that clutch, Crystal Palace, I feel that kind of clutch of mid-table teams could really fall quite far away from the top four, five or six, but we'll see.

I was just, I was thinking in my head, like, which are the nine?

I was trying to work out if you were going to say nine, which, which nine has he got in his head?

I mean, there's the obvious Liverpool, Arsenal, and City you're suggesting.

See, I think Chelsea are, I think Chelsea are in the conversation next season.

I don't think that means they have to be the favourites, I don't think that means you're putting them as ahead of Liverpool or Man City, because obviously, I wouldn't.

But I think that actually, for the reasons that Jordan was just talking about, I think it's really not inconceivable that there could be a

slightly surprising winner, because I think that one of the Premier League's qualities at the moment is because you've got this depth of teams below those title contenders, it really is possible that those teams take quite a few points off the title contenders.

And therefore, if they get them in the right games, that can shake things up quite a lot.

But yeah, those are my

clear four I've got.

And I guess you put

Newcastle Villa, that gets you to six.

I reckon he's probably including Tottenham, even though they finished 17th last season, so that gets you to seven.

I don't know who are we getting to get to nine?

I'm not sure, but you've mentioned

the T-word there, Max.

I'm really fearful as as an Arsenal fan.

I think Spurs are the team to watch this season.

I think they're a couple of signings away from not being a title contending talk, but I think Frank, it might take him a little while to get his fingers around what he needs to do with that club.

But I rate him quite highly.

I think Spurs could be the team.

And they've got that monkey off their back of winning a trophy.

The pressure of winning a trophy isn't there this season.

And because they finished so low last year, the pressure is kind of really off because they can't do any worse than they did domestically in the league.

So I have a horrible feeling.

I think you're just trying to cover yourself here.

It's like you said it, so you've covered yourself.

Like, you know, Tottenham has ruined better managers than Thomas Frank.

I think he's an excellent manager.

I have hope.

I just love the fact that we're at a stage now where we've spoken about potentially nine players, nine teams could win the league.

And

we all know that none of those are united.

There wasn't even a joke.

There wasn't even a joke from Jordan on Nikki saying and not united.

It was just taken a set.

Yeah.

You never know.

You never know.

Before we end part two, our thoughts are with the family and friends of former Liverpool and Wales defender Joey Jones, who's died at the age of 70.

He've had 100 times for Liverpool.

Some trophy haul in that.

Two European Cups, UEFA Cup, and a league title in three years.

His former Wales teammate Mickey Thomas posted on X this morning.

I lost my best friend and soulmate, Sir Joey.

Our memories will never fade.

Today, my heart's broken love you Sir Joey RIP my condolences are with Janice and all the family and we echo those thoughts we'll be back in a second

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So Russell Martin's first game in charge of Rangers.

They played Panathaniakos and won 2-0 in Champions League qualification.

I mean, I know football never ends, but it just sort of...

Nikki, is it never ending more than it's never ending?

I mean, I just sort of, I can't,

I know that's a Champions League game,

but I'm just thinking, there's no time.

This is us forever now.

And

I'm not complaining about the job.

It's fun, but it's just endless.

I think the Champions League has...

Maybe I'm the one being naive on the dates here.

I feel like the Champions League early qualifiers have always started pretty early.

I think the reason it probably feels maybe to you like football never ends is because this podcast and professionally, maybe we're putting that energy into the Club World Cup, which did drag on the end of last season to make this start of this season.

But also like the growth of the growth of women's football as well, which is a total positive, means you don't have your, you know, there's no summer off now.

You know, it's like, no, this summer is men's tournament, this summer is women's tournament.

So it's a, it's a net positive, I guess.

The Club World Cup, maybe less so.

Yeah, it's an interesting one, actually.

I've

obviously started my career covering men's football, and that has been most of my career covering men's football.

And because Italy were doing well this summer, I started getting asked to do things.

And I was like, this has kind of always been the thing I just watch for fun and I enjoy it.

And now am I going to make this part of my work as well?

And yes, professionally, there is that element of

where you want to

give yourself some opportunity to take breaks somewhere in the year because everyone does need those.

I don't know, I suppose some things

some things give me more that sense of fatigue than others, and certainly the Euros hasn't been giving me that sense of fatigue.

I think if I was being asked to go and cover Champions League preliminaries at this point of the year, I might be getting a little bit grumpy about it, but luckily for me, I'm not.

Got news for you, Nikki.

We're sending you to Greece for Panathaniacos Reigns in the second league.

Do you know what?

Actually, I said that.

If you would like to send me to Greece, I'm okay with it.

I've got time.

Santorini away.

Tough place to go, isn't it?

Interesting you say that about the things that you watch just for pleasure.

I covered a few cricket matches for talk sport, and no one tells you that

even a one-day game, it goes on all day.

And like, as a cricket fan, you turn up an hour late, you get a pint, you sit there, and you, you know, you go to the pub for lunch.

When you're actually hosting it, you have to get there before the

show starts.

And the show has to start before the game starts.

And then you have to stay there afterwards until it's finished.

And it got to the stage where it was like, look, whenever the last wicket goes, we will do until the half hour.

So like at 6.27, you're like, oh, God, please get a wicket.

Do it now.

Because at 6.31, that's half an hour of me asking, you know, Mike Hussey once again what it's like to bat in the ashes.

So I'd park that for just enjoying it.

Anyway, look, good win for Russell Martin.

Two good goals as well from Rangers.

Crystal Palace have submitted an appeal against their demotion from the Europa League to the Conference League with the Court of Arbitration for Sports.

Decision is expected on or before the 11th of august uh with the europa league group stage beginning on the 24th of september um is there anyone on the panel that just just doesn't feel bitterly sorry like so far we've discussed it everyone just feels so sorry for crystal palace or does anyone think i don't know jordan you think actually when they get to the conference league final they win it not only will they they they could win it they could win it and they could do a big up yours to your apha and all you know this could be like a really nice story for them in the end yeah that'd be that would be sweeter but i'm maybe i'm the grinch here but it is harsh you know know, Palace are my second team, if you like, so it's grim for them.

But A, they've probably got a better chance of success in this competition.

But also, more importantly,

rules are rules.

It is brutal.

I know there are a lot of technicalities about how they fell foul the rules.

And

UEFA isn't an organization that I'm massively fond of, but

rules are rules.

And I think they fell foul of those rules.

Who knew you were the policeman of the pod, John?

Who knew?

I'm just sorry.

it's like the guy

it's like the guy who gave me a parking ticket yesterday and I was like and I'd be I'd spent an hour on the my Ringo app website to actually park the bloody thing but then they changed when the parking began and it wasn't 8 30 a.m it was all night and I only needed to pay 30p rules of rules 30p and I would have been fine and I've got an 80 quid ticket and I was saying to the traffic warden rules of rules of rules rules of rules mate was very upsetting anyway Fulham uh I think it's quite interesting uh ab chaplain's foot says might be of interest to the pod um uh the quote pete tweets on the original tell the tale we're probably the best club at putting fans last which is a tall order in 2025 considering others yeah fulham put out a tweet saying we will face al-itihad behind closed doors in portugal but it appears they told lots of fans they would be playing them

in front of closed doors or or in front of open doors or whatever the reverse is.

All these Fulham fans saying, what?

I'm flying to Faro to watch fulham now it's behind closed doors uh i love it you can find other things to do oh sort of be quietly pleased but um yes a bit annoying if you've booked tickets to go there and then you can't actually watch the game um uh the football regulator has become law everybody kier starmer said the bill was a proud and defining moment for english football and will usher in a stronger fairer future for the game uh kevin miles mate of the pod um from the uh the chief executive of the football support association says this is an historic moment for football in this country Power the regulator will have tough new financial regulations to make sure clubs have a long-term sustainable future, stronger tests to stop rogue owners, new standards for fan engagement in club decision-making, a ban on clubs joining closed-shop competitions and breakaway leagues, backstop powers to ensure a fair financial distribution between leagues, and protections for key club heritage aspects like home shirt colours and club badges and stadium moves.

I guess, Nas,

the cynic in you or us or anyone will be,

it feels good, and the right people want it, I think.

And the people who were against it are the ones that you would suspect of having sort of quite obvious vested interests.

But until it comes into practice, we see how it works,

it's so hard to celebrate, I think.

Oh, completely.

I mean, it's like all these things.

I mean, the mission statements sound great and

all their sort of like plans seem great, but

we need to have like a real-life situation where a rogue sort of owner does come in or or does try and change things and see how powerful they are and how willing they are to change things.

Rob says, Dear Max and Football Weekly Podcast Team, this is quite a long, detailed email, but Rob has really put the work in as the long and desperate off-season dragged on.

As we've just discussed, it hasn't hasn't been one, Rob, but look, congratulations for finding it on whichever Thursday that was.

Without even the Club World Cup delays to suffer through, and tired of waiting for Arsenal to finalise the Yokarez deal, I found myself spiraling into what some might call statistical overreach, deciding to calculate the forecast accuracy scores for your previous season's predictions.

I went full spreadsheet mode running two different models to assess how well or how wildly last year's panelists performed.

Firstly, I used a points-based method based on 20, but congratulations to anyone who is still listening, based on 20 points for correctly predicting the Premier League winner, five points each for correctly placing the teams in the top four or bottom three, resulting in an accuracy percentage based on a maximum of 55 points.

Secondly, I used a forecast error model that compared each panelist's predicted log position for their top four and bottom three with their actual finish and used this to calculate an average accuracy based on total positional differences.

Finally, I used the average of the two models to produce a single blended forecast accuracy percentage, which I fondly dubbed the PLXP Premier League Expectation Precision Percentage.

And the results are in.

Would anybody like to know the results?

Go on.

I do.

Okay.

You were in it, Jordan.

That's interesting.

Sixth place, John Bruin.

He got three of the top four, was derailed by having Spurs in four.

Fourth, only correctly predicted one relegation team with his expectations of Forrest, who as you know, finished seventh, and Everton sealing his undoing.

Final score, 56%.

Fifth, Max, nailed Arsenal in second, and Liverpool in fourth, was also tempted by Spurs in third, called Leicester and Southampton to go down, but horribly underestimated Forrest.

Overall, 60.9%.

Fourth, Jordan.

Well done.

A solid three three out of four at the top, but with Aston Villa in second, called Southampton and Ipswich for the drop.

Also had Brentford 10th to the mix.

Accuracy, 67%.

These were our previews of last season.

These are on our, if you want to listen back, a completist would listen back and double check the previews we did and double check.

Lucy came third, three of the top four picked, but with Liverpool fourth, another seduced by Sad Spurs, gets full marks for correctly identifying the relegated teams, 69.1%.

Jonathan Wilson second.

You see where this is going.

Predicted three or Tripped out by Man United in fourth, but like Lucy Ward, spot on with the bottom three.

Correctly played Southampton Stone last.

Final accuracy, 71.2%.

Barry Glendenning, our champion,

and a healthy bonus of picking the winner, wisely ignored both Spurs and Man United, with only Villa spoiling an otherwise clairvoyant top four in the relegation zone.

Forrest befuddled him too, but he nailed Southampton and Leicester.

He is the winner for 2024-25, 84.5%.

So that is devastating for all of us, isn't it?

But well done to Barry Glendenning, who is currently

sort of basically.

Have you ever watched Alone?

Have you watched Alone?

He's in deepest Nova Scotia.

Sort of, he's had to build a hut out of things he can find and he has to kill a moose with his bare hands and then and eat that for six weeks.

If he survives, we'll have him back on the pod.

Anyway, thanks again for the brilliant entertainment, says Rob.

Your forecasts were almost as fun to analyze as they were to listen to.

I look forward to the new season.

I hope the crystal balls are ready.

Another spreadsheet awaits.

Okay, well, our previews are what?

In a couple of weeks' time, I think.

But thank you, Rob.

Finally, Moonlight Hanger says: Given that Nas is writing fringe previews these days, which of the panel would he most likely to see do two weeks in Edinburgh?

I was going to say, which recent or current Premier League manager, but we all know the answer to those questions is always Sean Deich.

Of course, it is.

So, yeah, you can pick a Football Weekly panelist, or you can pick a football manager or whoever you want.

What are you writing, Nas?

I just do like previews and sort of best of the fringe, sort of for Rolling Stone.

So, yeah,

I enjoy those.

I'll be going to see your other podcast co-host as well.

So that'll be good.

I mean, going back to the question,

has any of that rubbed up on you?

Have you sort of become funnier?

But by hanging around with David Adotty.

That's a good question.

I mean, it's not for me to say, is it Norz?

Yeah.

I mean, the only thing I'd say is that it definitely wouldn't be Jordan because Jordan would sort of like say, well, rules are rules, and that actually that joke doesn't work for this reason.

Damn right, damn right.

Anyway, I'll go and read them, Nas.

And if you haven't ever been to Medim before, it is good fun.

You say it's good fun.

You also have silent discos and

Oxbridge freshers doing sort of like street performances.

So it's.

Yeah, I mean, that's good and bad, but you know, like, bad is also good, right?

You know, like, yeah, exactly.

You know,

anyway, that'll do for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thanks, Nikki.

Thanks.

Thanks, Nas.

Thank you.

Cheers, Jordan.

Cheers, mate.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

We'll be back tomorrow.

This is The Guardian.