England leave it very late but Euro 2025 final beckons: Football Weekly

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Speaker 2 Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. Oof, England into the final of the Euros.

Speaker 2 They were seconds away from being knocked out, but let's face it, the 96th and the 119th minutes are not bad times to score.

Speaker 2 England worked great, flat in in the first half, better in the second without creating much. And we called for it on Monday.
Get it launched to Adjumang. Michelle Adjermang with another crucial goal.

Speaker 2 She almost won it in extra time with a beautiful lob before Chloe Kelly, hero of the last Euro, scored the rebound after her penalty was saved. It was soft, but it was given.

Speaker 2 Agony for the Lime Greens, as the Italians have always been known. Also today, we have an Arsenal contingent on the pod, so we'll discuss Jokarez and the rest of their spending.

Speaker 2 In other transfer news, is Emi Martinez going to Man United? Is Johan Wisser joining the Brentford Exodus?

Speaker 2 And Granite Jackers, the next man going to sunderland rangers start their season with a win in the champions league palace appeal their european relegation and the regulator is now the law someone with far too much time on their hands has rated our previews of last season as always we'll answer your questions and that's today's guardian football weekly

Speaker 2 on the panel today nikki bandini welcome commiserations Morning, thank you. Noreline Chowdhury, hello.

Speaker 7 Hello.

Speaker 2 Jordan Jarrett Bryan is here. Hey, Jordan.

Speaker 1 Morning, mate. How are you?

Speaker 2 I'm very good. Joining us from Geneva.
Was that the game last night, Nick Ames?

Speaker 1 All right, Nick.

Speaker 8 Hello, Max.

Speaker 1 Yes. Good.

Speaker 2 Luke says, has Barry taken the week off? Because it's coming home.

Speaker 1 Yeah, here we go again.

Speaker 2 England two. Italy one.
Nick, you were there. I mean, it was a sort of another, it was very similar in a way, I guess, to the Sweden game where England didn't really turn up for quite a lot of it.

Speaker 2 But I don't know if that matters anymore. I don't know what that means, but I...
It doesn't matter. We're in the final.

Speaker 8 I'm not a clue what it means either, Max. That was absolutely bunkers, wasn't it? Just

Speaker 8 another of those nights of white knuckle tournament football in a stadium here in Geneva that is brilliant for holding Manoise in. So it was another full house, 26,000 or so, I think.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 8 England fans and Italian fans as well. tremendous voice and by the end everyone is just shattered yet again for the second time in five days and um what does it mean like you

Speaker 8 you can look at it in two ways that this team has got such a resolve and certainty and confidence that they can find that way through at the end, even though for long periods they have frankly, I mean, England were laboured all night, really.

Speaker 8 I don't really think they had a good spell or sparkling spell in the game. There's a couple of chances first half.

Speaker 8 I think Toon had one, James who went off at half-time. A couple of chances for Lion Hemp shortly after the interval.
And apart from that, it was all scratchy, scratchy, desperate stuff.

Speaker 2 And Adjerman comes on. And what

Speaker 8 I loved about

Speaker 8 her equalizer, which came straight after England had had a corner in the about the 94th and 95th minute. And the keeper Hamilton's up.
And we're all like, okay, this is the moment.

Speaker 8 This is going to be the one. And then, and then she,

Speaker 8 you know, Chloe Curly, fantastic player, but she puts it in the side and I think and it was face palms or invisible face palms everywhere. And you think that's it.
And then a few moments later,

Speaker 8 yeah, to go back to my train of thought, Adjamang, it gets cast almost as this battering ram agent of chaos, but the composure for a 19-year-old to connect a loose ball in the box at a moment like that when it's on the line and the whole country is watching you, two whole countries are watching you, and not to to snatch at it, but to take the touch and pick the spot and drill it.

Speaker 8 19 years old,

Speaker 8 not played much, that much domestic football at all, except out on Loan at Brighton.

Speaker 1 Absolutely extraordinary.

Speaker 8 So then the lid goes off the whole place, obviously. Like the subs are cascading down the bio line, you know,

Speaker 8 the touchline, the classic scenes. And then you think, okay, they're going to do this now.
Italy, who, I mean, I'm sure Nikki will talk a bit more about, but were fantastic.

Speaker 8 I thought they were so well drilled and played it nearly perfectly. It was tactically spot on from a team that is sort of technically inferior.

Speaker 8 They looked out on their feet, and then fast forward, Adrian again shows what a wonderful, subtle player she is too, by lobbying against the woodwork, which was a fantastic effort.

Speaker 8 And then you think, we've got got the penalty rigmarole again, you're all ready for that.

Speaker 8 And then it did take a penalty, but only one penalty and kind of a bit of a penalty because um chloe kelly steps up and

Speaker 8 again just puts it not wide enough of a keeper parried she's sharp enough to rebound and then all hell breaks loose again and still trying to make sense of it but are you um are you coming down on the side of it's written in my stars they they just always find something or is it more they're going to get found out by quite possibly spain on sunday who are quite capable of dishing out a clinic if you're on a sort of five or six out of ten which england had been for most of the tournament.

Speaker 2 I mean that penalty, Nikki, it is so soft, isn't it?

Speaker 2 I mean I'm I'm watching it delighted that it's been given and then I just don't see in maybe I don't see enough replays but it's one of those where you think if that if that was against me I'd be pretty I mean the Italian manager was furious and I would have been.

Speaker 6 Yeah I don't know what to say with the penalty. I think it's one of those that it It is a foul.
If you do it somewhere else in the pitch, it is a foul.

Speaker 6 She is grabbing her and I do think Severini initiated the contact, even though there was some contact both ways. And I want to shit back.
I think she does.

Speaker 6 It's one of those fouls that

Speaker 6 I think a lot of referees in the penalty area, in the semi-final, with two minutes left of extra time, a lot of them are going to go, you know what, it's not worth it.

Speaker 6 I think a lot of referees wouldn't have given it. And I think a lot of referees...
I think any referee who hadn't given it, I don't think VAR would have overturned it.

Speaker 6 I don't think it would have been clear and obvious to the VAR booth if it hadn't been given. But I think the ones that was given, VAR was never going to overturn it because, unfortunately,

Speaker 6 as much as it breaks my heart, it is a foul. I think it's really hard.
It's really easy to say it's soft because I think it was soft.

Speaker 6 And I think if it had gone the other way, I think you would have absolutely had everyone in England kicking off about it. So it's completely fair to call it soft this way.

Speaker 6 But I think it's one of those that is soft and feels worse because of when it is and how it happens in the context of the match rather than because it's an outrageous call.

Speaker 6 It isn't an outrageous call. I think there is a foul there.
It's just a soft one.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Mark Luckenberg on, I'm not sure who he was broadcasting for said he wouldn't have given it because, you know, that's not how to decide a game, which is clearly not how referees are meant to referee football matches.

Speaker 2 You know, that's not how it works. Jordan, you were at Croydon Box Park.
You have our sympathies.

Speaker 2 How much beer was flying around when that penalty, when the rebound went in, or when Adjumang scored?

Speaker 1 Lots of genetonics more so than beers, if I'm okay.

Speaker 1 But not as much beers as you probably see in some of the men's games. I mean, the best moment of this whole game for me, guys, wasn't even necessarily the winner from Chloe Kelly.

Speaker 1 It was, and I lived in Italy for five years, it was when the Italian manager, I think it was when the penalty was conceded.

Speaker 1 Obviously, we can't hear what he's saying, but I'm pretty sure I saw him mouth va fan cool on camera. And that was the bit where I was like, yep, he's lost his head tier.

Speaker 1 I thought this was a really, really good game, but for maybe not not all great reasons i i thought england for large parts the first half um were actually quite poor i think lauren james had a couple of half chances that she could have done better with maybe russ had a poor miss but i thought the tempo from england for large parts of the game was really just tepid and and slow and i was really disappointed with the lack of intensity from from their play um it took them quite a long time 70 minutes onwards i noticed before they really just thought sod it as you love to say match get it launched but also get go two at the back they had three and even fought the back for way longer than they needed to italy weren't a massive threat so they didn't need to have three or four players at the back just just go you know get push another player from defense into midfield and and and that really annoyed me one of my favorite things probably my favorite thing in football is a great first touch and forgive me i forgot my italian uh player's name who scored but for her goal that first touch is so so good and even ajima jang her her first touch as nick mentioned was really good she's got it out of her feet and a great strike which a double nutmeg so when you know, when the gods are with you, the gods are with you on another day that gets blocked by the defender or the goalkeeper.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 you know, the luck and the fortune was definitely with her on that particular moment.

Speaker 1 But I think for England, if they're going to win this final, be it Spain or Germany, they'll have to play a lot better because I don't think in large parts they actually played that well.

Speaker 1 I think they were quite fortunate.

Speaker 1 And had Italy not lost their heads in that last 10 minutes, there was an opportunity when a player had a chance to either run into the corner or pass it inside to two of her colleagues.

Speaker 1 The player shot and it went wide.

Speaker 1 And I thought to myself, I'd be absolutely spitting blood if I was the Italian manager because that's an opportunity where you've just got to run into the corner and run the clock down.

Speaker 1 And then you never know. And I think the penalty is a clear penalty.
I'd slightly disagree with both of you. I think it's a quite obvious penalty.

Speaker 1 And I think it's an example of them, again, just panicking and not keeping their composure.

Speaker 1 And if England are going to do better in the final, definitely if it's Spain they're playing the final, they'll have to play a lot better.

Speaker 1 And my final point would be that there's this whole discussion around whether Serena Wiegman's getting her selection right or wrong, because she seems to be getting it right in that she's rectifying it with her substitutions.

Speaker 1 But I don't know if that can always work.

Speaker 1 I don't know if that's always going to get you through because as I mentioned, I don't think they played particularly well until Chloe and Ajimzhan came on in that second half and changed the game.

Speaker 1 And I also love how raw those two players are. Chloe and Ajimajan feel like they're not FA groomed tactical players.
They feel like they're very off the cuff.

Speaker 1 just give me the ball i'm going to do something a little bit raw i'm going to take on a player i'm going to be a little bit a little bit rogue and i kind of like that about those two players as well north you wanted to talk about adjacent um who has had such an impact in the last couple of games yeah completely she she she really feels as if she's had this breakthrough tournament and uh just like looking looking at the fact like she

Speaker 7 Her debut is so recent and she scored like, is it three goals in four games or something? It's amazing. But

Speaker 7 I think especially in the context of

Speaker 7 this issue about diversity and particularly in the women's game, and also in the context of Jess Carter's experiences and racism on social media,

Speaker 7 the other day I was reading an article in The Guardian by Anita Asante.

Speaker 7 It was from 2022, and

Speaker 7 she was basically talking about the lack of diversity in the women's game and in particular the lack of black players. And it was so predominantly white.

Speaker 7 She cited loads of reasons that that might be the case. One being

Speaker 7 how white the coaching sort of

Speaker 7 setup is in the women's game. Another one was about how WSL teams seem to have copied the men's game in terms of having training facilities in rural sort of like areas in suburbs.
And

Speaker 7 obviously those are predominantly or far more white compared to

Speaker 7 inner city areas. And then you get into a whole issue about how difficult it is for certain demographics to

Speaker 7 sort of travel to training and travel to trials.

Speaker 7 So, and at that time when she and other people sort of brought this up, obviously the England team were doing really well and they experienced a big backlash to that. Oh, it's all on merit.

Speaker 7 We're like, why are you bringing this into it? Which is obviously sort of like

Speaker 7 really stupid headed. But I think when you've got a breakout style like Ajimang, I think it's that thing of if you see yourself

Speaker 7 in the people who are having success, if you see yourself

Speaker 7 on the pitch and becoming sort of national heroes and almost transcending the sport in some way that can inspire um and and that's i think i think that's what's particularly exciting about adjumang in in terms of like hopefully she will

Speaker 1 she already feels as if she's going to be a transcendent sort of like uh individual in terms of the game even though she's so young and even though she's so early in her career but like it's just exciting the fact that that this could sort of like you could you could have like lots of girls of different sort of demographics that sort of look at her and plays like her and kind of think well it's actually like uh i finally see someone like me on the pitch doing it so i think i think that's what i find most exciting about that i think it's um just a shame that we have to have someone like asymmetr who who has to be excellent and almost a star to inspire other girls to to want to be in this particular england setup i i would love it to just her just to be a squad player and just not this not getting the you know the crucial goals um for that to be enough to just be able to see her on the bench for example she's a phenomenal player and she's a great talent.

Speaker 1 She's doing really, really well. But it just feels like the bar for

Speaker 1 there has to be a

Speaker 1 star player, a black star player, for that to inspire other ethnic minority girls. And I think that's a shame.
Why can't she just be an okay player and that be enough? Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 For her to inspire other girls and other generations to want to be England footballers. They feel like we need this pin-up star.
We looked at her.

Speaker 1 If she hadn't scored yesterday, would the conversation be around

Speaker 1 inspiring other black girls, other British Asian girls into wanting to be footballers. Did you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 I feel that just the bar of expectation for inspiring other girls for black girls is so much higher than everybody else. And I just think that's so unfair.

Speaker 7 But you but you know as well as I do, Jordan, like that that's always been the case. Anyone

Speaker 7 any person of colour or any sort of like ethnic minority, like it's not like sadly, and this is this pisses me off as much, I'm sure, as it does you, being mediocre is sort of like seen as being less than mediocre and and it's this idea of like it almost relates to like the good immigrant thing of like of like uh you uh you have to be the you have to be exceptional and then you're accepted and then you're heroized but if you're if you're just at a level where

Speaker 7 like say a white player is then suddenly you're not one of the good ones and and and i think sadly like that's that's the that's the nature of things and and what i'd hate is if you've got a situation now where you've got players who are legitimately complaining about racism on social media because of the colour of their skin.

Speaker 7 And I don't want basically thinly veiled racists to turn around and say, oh, well, look at Anjuman, she's getting all the praise,

Speaker 7 which is a totally

Speaker 7 wrong-headed way of looking at it. But it sort of points to what you're saying in terms of like, why does it always have to be exceptional sort of people of color who are heroized?

Speaker 2 Nick, there's an interesting discussion about Vegman and her changes and when she makes them and when she brought, you know, Kelly and Ajamang on and whether she should do it half an hour earlier, or actually, you wait until, you know, the Italians are knackered and A, think, oh, we're close here, and then you sort of hit them with the chaos, as Jordan called it.

Speaker 2 Because at the time, you're thinking, you've got to change something. I felt like I'm yelling at Vegman like I'm yelling at Southgate.

Speaker 8 Yeah, completely.

Speaker 8 I will talk about one of the changes first in the context of the very instructive discussion that we've just had, because it's worth pointing out that Jess Carter did come onto the pitch right at the end.

Speaker 8 She had been named among the subs.

Speaker 8 She came on towards the end and you know it can get lost in the maelstrom of those late moments of a chaotic game like that, but she got an absolutely incredible reception, which was just

Speaker 8 a really nice moment, I think, and a deserved moment. And at the start of the game as well,

Speaker 8 it was quite well documented.

Speaker 8 The players opted not to take the knee because I think they're looking for more substantive action rather than gestures and and i think we

Speaker 8 we have to go along with them on that because they know how they feel and how how the situation has affected them and yes and um these subs instead linked arms on the touchline in in you know a a visible show of solidarity so so that was a really important and good moment that you know can can get lost in the swirl regarding the other subs yeah

Speaker 8 i i mean people

Speaker 8 with like 15 20 minutes to go were definitely starting to agitate for Reiman to start shaking things up a bit more. They were toiling,

Speaker 8 as we've all said already.

Speaker 8 But she does seem to time it well. And to be fair,

Speaker 8 the game breakers came on and broke the game. And I think you just have to trust that they understand how long certain players can go for.
They've got the data. They've got the stuff like that.

Speaker 8 They can see signs in the opposing players when they're tiring, which Italy Italy were clearly, I think, in the last 10 minutes or so.

Speaker 8 And I think, yeah, you kind of can only trust the manager's nouse and judgment in terms of the timing of those subs because it's worked out so far quite spectacularly.

Speaker 6 It always comes to this over and over again in football, doesn't it?

Speaker 6 We, as journalists, reporters, broadcasters, storytellers, we always come down in the end to having to fit our narratives around what actually happened on the pitch, right? And

Speaker 6 similar things happened um actually with the england uh men's team didn't they are the heroes when you've got goals coming out of nowhere in injury time suddenly a tournament that could have been a terrible tournament becomes an all-right tournament and and i think this tournament for for england does feel like one that has been on the margins of being a very different tournament and now they could still win the whole thing and and yeah that's partly the the stories we have to tell it's partly uh the reality of of sport and and great players who have great moments and in all this conversation about adjumang i I think worth saying she didn't just score a goal and almost score a second incredible goal.

Speaker 6 She also held the ball up. She also worked for the team.
She also put herself. She was really impressive.
I mean, something else for a teenager.

Speaker 6 But of course,

Speaker 6 I feel like because we haven't really talked about it from the Italy lens, and I do want to bring that into it as well, because they've had an extraordinary tournament.

Speaker 6 I do remember at the start of this tournament chatting with Susie and saying, could they be a dark horse? And I was being a bit optimistic, but

Speaker 6 I didn't think they could win it. I certainly didn't think that.

Speaker 6 And I would have been not putting it in the conversation even really to get to a final so I think the semi-final was the top of the ambitions and and ultimately they were moments away from from getting this across the line and going to the final in some ways I wonder if almost like inter in the Champions League this season where the story almost looks worse because you go to the final and get hammered almost in some ways could this end up being a happier ending for them because i think if they go to that final without girelli who is looking very much like she's pulled the hamstring losing that sharp end.

Speaker 6 Say it's Spain again. Spain already outplayed them pretty comprehensively in the groups, but they managed to make it scary for Spain because they had that sharp edge.

Speaker 6 If they lose that sharp edge, does it become something else? But I do think

Speaker 6 it's a remarkable, remarkable tournament for Italy.

Speaker 6 It has a bit of bittersweet for me because when I look at it, and I just had this really fascinating conversation earlier between Jordan and Nuz about representation and how much that matters.

Speaker 6 I mean, obviously, this is going to be a huge sliding doors moment, I think, of opportunity for Italian football, because this is an amount of focus that there really hasn't been on the women's game, probably since the 2019 World Cup in Italy.

Speaker 6 And bear in mind, Italian football, women's football has gone professional since then. But then I look at the stars of this run, and yes, Sofia Cantore has been magic and she's off to Washington.

Speaker 6 I think she's going to be... a great player for a number of years but Christian Dierelli is 35 Barbara Bonancea who of course scored iconic gold against Australia in 2019, she's 34.

Speaker 6 That Juventus attack, all three of them

Speaker 6 together this season, might not be part of the story at the next

Speaker 6 major tournament, the next World Cup. So

Speaker 6 there is a question hanging over it of whether or not this group can carry it forward with quite the excitement that you want them to.

Speaker 6 And so it falls to is the Italian Football Federation going to do everything it can to capitalise on this moment and galvanise the movement and get more girls and young women involved.

Speaker 6 And that's the bit that I wish I had more faith in the Italian Football Federation in general than I do at the moment. So we'll see on that front.

Speaker 6 But it definitely has been a tournament that I think has captured the imagination more than anything since 2019,

Speaker 6 which is an opportunity at the very least for Italian football.

Speaker 2 Meanwhile, Nick, England, this is their third major final in a row. And it's Serena Wiegman's fifth in a row.
I mean, that is that's actually extraordinary isn't it?

Speaker 8 Yeah she knows how to do it but she's a winner and she

Speaker 8 just

Speaker 8 even the way she answers questions in in the press conference afterwards just so calmly and and authoritatively and it's it's almost like okay what are we all worrying about she's she's she's got that edge and that self-assuredness and also that that sheer pragmatism and sort of dogmatism almost that you need you know she's she's completely certain about the way she wants to do things and the way that England should approach these very hair-raising situations and yeah like you know her her record is completely well almost unimpeachable I I think if they'd gone out last night which they almost did and by the way we haven't mentioned that that there was a massive moment four minutes before the 90 when um when when Hannah Hampton made a

Speaker 8 astonishing point blank say from I think it was Severini who later conceded the pen if I'm not wrong and that would have sent England out, would have given Italy the win that at that point they deserved, frankly.

Speaker 8 I think if that moment goes another way, they're out, and

Speaker 8 there's a bit of an inquest about what we've talked about already: some of the performances, some of the lack of patterns, some of the way that

Speaker 8 a lot of a player for me in my last few games has gone a bit aimlessly down my channels at times. There's not been that structure, that sophistication.
But at the end of the day,

Speaker 8 Weaven gets it done. And that's because she knows how to do it.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 8 it's an astonishing record. And now we'll have to see whether she can go one better on Sunday.

Speaker 8 I'm going to the Spain journey again tonight. Very interested to see how that goes.
An informed

Speaker 8 Spain team that does give you a chance at the back, but normally blows you away at the front.

Speaker 8 against a Germany team that has shown a lot more doggedness in getting this far than maybe we expected of this particular Germany side, missing a few key players too. So I'm off to that after this and

Speaker 8 hoping to see a few signs that if England do get it together on Sunday in a way that they haven't really yet,

Speaker 8 then Serena can be lifting another trophy.

Speaker 2 We haven't really touched on the most important part of the evening. Was anyone else as outraged as I was to see England, Italy not be white shirts against blue shirts? I mean, this.

Speaker 2 It really, it just, because, you know, it just takes you, you're just watching it going, this game could look more, every moment of it could look more spectacular than it is and i i mean i and i don't know if this is you know bias but i thought at least the england third kit is that or second kit is kind of nice like the italy one is a it's an abomination what are they doing i i was very sad about it nikki so that kit is um a deliberate choice to have a kit that is specifically for the women's team it's a kit that was designed so there's a kit that the men's team don't wear the women's team do wear to give them something that's i guess um unique to them i tend to agree i don't really love the colour.

Speaker 6 There's a lot of marketing waffle that came with it about it representing certain art styles and mint colours which represent the natural world. I don't know.

Speaker 6 A lot of that read to me like Adidas trying to flog some shirts.

Speaker 2 But what minty world are they living in?

Speaker 2 The land of Colgate. What is this? What is this extra Wrigley's extra world that we live in? But

Speaker 2 yes, it upset me. Chris also says, should we watch the final on BBC with Robin Cowan on comms or on ITV with Seb Hutchinson and Lucy Ward? It's a football weekly split.
Impossible.

Speaker 2 How do we make that choice? How do we choose? We have to get two tellies and listen to them all.

Speaker 1 Anyway,

Speaker 2 that'll do. We'll obviously cover Germany, Spain on tomorrow's pod, but that'll do for part one.
Thanks, Nick. You have a nice day.

Speaker 8 Thank you, Matt. I'll try.

Speaker 2 Good stuff. Nick Ames there out in Geneva.
He'll be at the Germany-Spain game tonight. That'll do for part one.
Part two, we'll begin talking Arsenal.

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Speaker 2 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Huge news, everybody.

Speaker 2 On the 11th of September, we are doing a live show, our first one for two years.

Speaker 2 We're at the Troxy. I think, hopefully not because nobody wants to come or wanted to come for two years.
Geography being the main issue. We're playing the Troxy in London.

Speaker 2 We would like you and almost 2,000 people to come along. Seems ambitious.

Speaker 2 How much time we got? Basically two months to flog these tickets. But I don't want to sound desperate.
It will sell fast.

Speaker 2 We will have a brilliant panel, of course,

Speaker 2 and try and get in some cameos, a big halftime show. If you are not unable to come to London, you can live stream it from wherever you are sitting.

Speaker 2 So every single person listening to this can come, basically. So just don't let us down.
You know,

Speaker 2 I don't want to be angry. I'd just be disappointed.
Theguardian.com slash football weekly live. It will be lovely to see you all the 11th of September at the Troxy in East London.

Speaker 2 We'll put a link in the pod description. We'll put it all over the Instagram.
I'll tweet about it every hour and annoy everybody. Let's do a bit of Arsenal.
Nikki and Jordan are both here, of course.

Speaker 2 Are you happy with business so far, Jordan?

Speaker 1 Yes. Yes, I am happy with what we've done so far.
We've addressed, I think, some key holes that are going to need to be filled if we're going to win this damn Premier League.

Speaker 1 I think Zugamendi is a phenomenal signing. I think he might actually prove to be the better signing in a weird way than Jokarez, which is

Speaker 1 all but done. I think he's a lovely player that I think will just bring the dynamos into our game that

Speaker 1 I think we need

Speaker 1 in the middle.

Speaker 1 The mascara deal, I think that's been done. I think that's a future-proofing signing for the next couple of years, but it's a good backup there.

Speaker 1 Kepa, I'm not a big lover of, but I think as a number two, I think you're going to struggle to get a better number two goalkeeper than Kepa.

Speaker 1 I would like a left winger. That's me being a bit greedy.

Speaker 1 We've spent like a billion pounds already, but I would like a left winger because I'm not convinced that Martinelli and Trossard are the answers.

Speaker 1 If the bar now is to win the title of the Champions League, I don't know if you do it with one of those two as your starting left winger.

Speaker 1 But otherwise, I think Arsenal are looking like they're very, very strong. Defensively, we've always been good.
I think defensively, I think we're pretty solid.

Speaker 1 I think the problem has been just creating a little bit more and having that guy that can put the ball in the back of the net in those really key moments across the season. And also depth.

Speaker 1 It's four competitions. It's a long season.
I think the depth I think we're seeing addressed by Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal. I think they know there's a lot of games coming this season.

Speaker 1 So I think that's something I'm really pleased that

Speaker 1 we've addressed. But I think mentality as well before Nikki comes in.
I think mentality is equally an issue as just transfers. We can buy great players.
That's all well and good.

Speaker 1 But I think the Arsenal mindset has to really change somehow. They have to really go to somewhere this season that they've not been before if they really want to get the job done.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think mentality and

Speaker 6 winning is such a hard thing to pin down in football, isn't it? Like I've heard a lot of this from people in the reporting of the Yoko Shining. Oh, it's a mentality monster.

Speaker 6 It's everyone's favourite phrase, mentality monster coming in.

Speaker 1 But I mean,

Speaker 6 he's certainly used to winning, isn't he, from sporting? And of course, Madweke now arriving as a world champion from Chelsea. I mean, that feels a very odd way of framing it.

Speaker 6 But hey, they did just win something. I think I'm the same as Jordan.
It's hard not to feel good about this summer if the Goku SDL gets across the line.

Speaker 6 I think last time I came on, Max, you asked me about Arsenal's transfers, and I was saying, well, I really need a striker before I'm going to feel good about it.

Speaker 6 And this deal that seems to drag on forever and ever at time of recording, we're still waiting for it to be official, but it does sound like it's very close now.

Speaker 6 So it just is a big issue and it has been a big issue.

Speaker 6 And I think no matter which way you cut it and no matter how much love I can have as a fan for Mikel Marino, that's not the player you want starting up front as

Speaker 6 your number nine in key points of the season on a consistent basis. So certainly getting that number nine in is a big thing.

Speaker 6 I think the greedy part of me almost goes, okay, that's the number nine we want as our first choice number nine. And also, where's the second number nine?

Speaker 6 Because you have injuries and you kind of need someone who isn't Mikel Marino still to be leading the line at other times. But in terms of progress, in terms of addressing things that the club needed,

Speaker 6 I think it's been a very positive summer.

Speaker 6 And I think even Madweke, who I think has definitely had mixed response from Arsenal's fan base, does give something different in terms of the way

Speaker 6 he runs at players and just...

Speaker 6 maybe creating again different axes of attack when when we do come up against those

Speaker 6 very deep lines that Arsenal quite often ends up against.

Speaker 6 So yeah, I think it's you'd be being very churlish as we just have been to pick holes in the things that we still want given how much has been invested.

Speaker 2 Yeah, mentality monster is a funny phrase, isn't it? Just imagine that's the last thing you'd want a friend to be, you know. What's Dave like? He's a mentality monster.

Speaker 1 I don't want to go out. I don't want to spend the evening with him.

Speaker 2 Sounds exhausting, doesn't it?

Speaker 2 Noz, we got a little bit of criticism on Monday for, I mean, for laughing at Manchester United again, basically, but being a bit sniffy about Brian and Bumo's fee and not Ekatike's when one has proven it in the Premier League, you know, albeit for one brilliant season and some other quite good ones.

Speaker 2 Do you think we just assume now that United's recruitment is bad and Liverpool's is good before they've even kicked a ball? You go, well, he's gone to Man United, so therefore it's a bad signing.

Speaker 7 I think it's interesting because

Speaker 7 obviously,

Speaker 7 like, you look at the past and you base your opinions on that, and it's true true that Manchester United and Old Trafford is a graveyard for any talented player.

Speaker 7 And as soon as they leave, they're free

Speaker 7 and they're far better. But I do think this is a different transfer window for United, just in terms of

Speaker 7 it kind of feels like sensible, solid players in.

Speaker 7 How many transfer windows have you seen where you kind of think, oh, who are United going to sign? And then before you know it, they've spent like 180 million.

Speaker 2 It's like you do a full waitrose shop and you spend 150 quid and you can't make one dinner.

Speaker 1 And you're like, how does this happen?

Speaker 1 Exactly, exactly.

Speaker 7 Yeah, exactly. You come home and it's like, yeah, but you didn't even get the milk.

Speaker 7 But like, it's, it's, it's, but, but it, but it's that, it's that thing of like, uh, and even after a few games, you will see five new players and it just feels like the exact same team.

Speaker 7 So what I like about this transfer window is like, I think United have needed to sort of like invest in players who have proven the Premier League.

Speaker 7 I think that's been a massive thing because the reason why players have been great before they've come to United and been bad and then good again after they've left is quite often

Speaker 7 they have they have flourished in in different leagues and struggled in the Premier League for various different reasons.

Speaker 7 Like Anthony's a great example, and then and then go to a league that suits them and play really well.

Speaker 7 So I'm Kunya and Buemo, like they are, they are, you're basically buying goals, you are buying Premier League experience and you know that they will, you will get the play that you bought to a large extent.

Speaker 7 And also, I think another big thing about United is:

Speaker 7 we've always tended to buy players who are good but don't fit the system. And now, you've got a manager who's not like Ten Hag, who's a pragmatic who is a pragmatist.

Speaker 7 You've got a manager who is a systems manager and wants particular players for particular positions. And that looks like the plays that he's buying.
So, I mean, I'm excited.

Speaker 7 Whereas I am intrigued about Liverpool's almost change of tack.

Speaker 7 I put on social media that

Speaker 7 I asked Liverpool fans slightly mischievously, oh, how'd you feel about this?

Speaker 7 Like, you've had so much success, and now you've like with this transfer strategy, and now you're buying these plays for massive money. How'd you feel about that?

Speaker 7 And obviously, they're all chuffed and sort of over the moon, but

Speaker 7 I do think it's a change of strategy, and I just wonder how that'll work.

Speaker 2 Arteta Jordan said that he thinks there are nine teams that can win the Premier League.

Speaker 2 That seems a stretch to me.

Speaker 1 It doesn't seem it is a stretch. Nine teams? I mean, who has he got in that nine?

Speaker 1 That's so bizarre.

Speaker 1 No, that's clearly wrong. There aren't nine teams.
I think there's three teams. I think the top three will contest for the title this season.

Speaker 1 I know everyone's getting excited about Chelsea. Until they sign a goalkeeper and a defender, centre-back, I'm not taking Chelsea as serious title contenders.

Speaker 1 I think there's work that needs to be done there. I think their back four or their back five, including their goalkeeper, is good.
I don't think it's better than the top three.

Speaker 1 So no, I think there's only three teams that will do it. But I think

Speaker 1 the clutch below that may actually be more interesting than the actual top three. I think there's maybe five or six clubs that could all grab that fourth spot.

Speaker 1 And am I right in saying that five teams again qualify for the Champions League? Or is that just last season? Is it as if...

Speaker 2 Well, I don't know what happens, but doesn't the coefficient depend on what happens in European competition this year?

Speaker 2 But because there are so many teams in European competition this year that maybe are. I'm not a co-event.
Where's Lars when you need? Oh, I'm not a co-efficient expert.

Speaker 1 We'll leave that to Lars for next week. But

Speaker 1 I think it's looking like it could be a very good season, but at the same time, with so many of the teams in that kind of middle tier getting pillaged for their best players, it could go back to like old school Premier League, where the top four or five just kind of pull away and the middle group are just a little bit meh.

Speaker 1 Where in the last two or three years, we've seen the likes of Bournemouth, Brighton, uh brentford i mean a fear for them all really be quite competitive fulham i i fear that that clutch crystal palace i feel that kind of clutch of mid-table teams could really fall quite far away from from the top four five or six but we'll see i was just i was thinking in my head like which are the nine i was trying to work out if you were going to say nine which which nine has he got in his head i mean there's the obvious Liverpool, Arsenal and City you're suggesting.

Speaker 6 See, I think Chelsea are, I think Chelsea are in the conversation next season. I don't think that means they have to be the favourites.

Speaker 6 I don't think that means you're putting them as ahead of Liverpool or Man City, because obviously I wouldn't.

Speaker 6 But I think that actually, for the reasons that Jordan was just talking about, I think it's really not inconceivable that there could be

Speaker 6 a slightly surprising winner, because I think that one of the Premier League's qualities at the moment is because you've got this depth of teams below those title contenders, it really is possible that those teams take quite a few points off the title contenders.

Speaker 6 And therefore, if they get them in the right games, that can shake things up quite a lot.

Speaker 6 But yeah, those are my

Speaker 6 clear four I've got. And I guess you put Newcastle Villa, that gets you to six.

Speaker 6 I reckon he's probably including Tottenham, even though they finished 17th last season, so that gets you to seven. I don't know who are we getting to get to nine?

Speaker 1 I'm not sure, but you've mentioned the T-word there, Max. I'm really fearful as an Arsenal fan.
I think Spurs are the team to watch this season.

Speaker 1 I think there are a couple of signings away from not being a title contending talk, but I think Frank, it might take him a little while to get his fingers around what he used to do with that club, but I rate him quite highly.

Speaker 1 I think Spurs could be the team, and they've got that monkey off their back of winning the trophies, the pressure of winning a trophy isn't there this season.

Speaker 1 And because they finished so low last year, the pressure is kind of really off because they can't do any worse than they did domestically in the league.

Speaker 1 So I have a horrible feeling that Spurs might do something.

Speaker 2 I think you're just trying to cover yourself here. It's like you said it, so you've covered yourself.
Like, you know, Tottenham

Speaker 2 has ruined better managers than Thomas Frank. I think he's an excellent manager.

Speaker 1 I have hope.

Speaker 7 I just love the fact that we're at a stage now where we've spoken about potentially nine players, nine teams could win the league. And

Speaker 1 we all know that none of those are united.

Speaker 7 There wasn't even a joke. There wasn't even a joke from Jordan on Nicki saying, and not united.
It was just taken a set.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 2 you never know. You never know.

Speaker 2 Before we end part two, our thoughts are with the family and friends and former Liverpool and Wales defender Joey Jones, who's died at the age of 70, about 100 times for Liverpool.

Speaker 2 Some trophy haul in that. Two European Cups, UEFA Cup, and a league title in three years.

Speaker 2 His former Wales teammate Mickey Thomas posted on X this morning, I lost my best friend and soulmate, Sir Joey. Our memories will never fade.
Today, my heart's broken. Love you, Sir Joey R.I.P.

Speaker 2 My condolences are with Janice and all the family. We echo those thoughts.
We'll be back in a second.

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Speaker 2 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 2 So, Russell Martin's first game in charge of Rangers. They played Panathaniakos and won 2-0 in Champions League qualification.
I mean, I know football never ends, but it just sort of.

Speaker 2 Nikki, is it never ending more than it's never ending?

Speaker 2 I mean, I just sort of, I can't.

Speaker 2 I know that's a Champions League game,

Speaker 2 but I'm just thinking, there's no time.

Speaker 2 This is us forever now. And I'm not complaining about it.
I'm not complaining about the job. It's fun, but just, it's just endless.

Speaker 6 I think the Champions League has

Speaker 6 maybe I'm the one being naive on the dates here. I feel like the Champions League early qualifiers have always started pretty early.

Speaker 6 I think the reason it probably feels maybe to you like football never ends is because this podcast and professionally, maybe we're putting that energy into the Club World Cup, which did drag on the end of last season to make this start of this season.

Speaker 2 But also like the growth of the growth of women's football as well, which is a total positive, means you don't have your, you know, there's no no summer off now, you know, with it's like, no, this summer is men's tournament, this summer is women's tournament.

Speaker 2 So it's a, it's a net positive, I guess. Um, the Club World Cup, maybe less so.

Speaker 6 Yeah, it's an interesting one, actually. I, I've, um, obviously like started my career covering men's football, and uh, that has been most of my career covering men's football.

Speaker 6 And because Italy were doing well this summer, I started getting asked to do things, and I was like, this has kind of always been the thing I just watch for fun and I enjoy it.

Speaker 6 And like, now am I going to make this part of my work as well? And yes, professionally, there is that element of like where you

Speaker 6 want to

Speaker 6 give yourself some opportunity to take breaks somewhere in the year because everyone does need those. I don't know.
I suppose.

Speaker 6 Some things give me more that sense of fatigue than others. And certainly the Euros hasn't been giving me that sense of fatigue.

Speaker 6 I think if I was being asked to go and cover Champions League preliminaries at this point of the year, I might be getting a little bit grumpy about it. But luckily for me, I'm not.

Speaker 2 Got news for you, Nikki.

Speaker 2 We're sending you to Greece for Panathaniacos uh reigns in the second league do you know what actually i said that if you would like to send me to greece i'm okay with it i've got time santorini away tough place to go isn't it i um interesting you say that about you know the the things that you watch just for pleasure i i did a i covered a few cricket matches for talk sport and no one tells you that like a even a one day game it goes on all day and like as a cricket fan you turn up an hour late you get a pint you sit there and you you know you go to the pub for lunch when you're actually hosting it you have to get there before before the show starts.

Speaker 2 And the show has to start before the game starts. And then you have to stay there afterwards until it's finished.

Speaker 2 And it got to the stage where it was like, look, whenever the last wicket goes, we will do until the half hour. So like at 6.27, you're like, oh, God, please get a wicket.
Do it now.

Speaker 2 Because at 6.31, that's half an hour of me asking, you know, Mike Hussey once again, what it's like to bat in the ashes.

Speaker 2 So I park that for just enjoying it. Anyway, look, good win for Russell Martin.
Two good goals as well from Rangers.

Speaker 2 Crystal Palace have submitted an appeal against their demotion from the Europa League to the Conference League with the Court of Arbitration for Sports.

Speaker 2 Decision is expected on or before the 11th of August with the Europa League group stage beginning on the 24th of September.

Speaker 2 Is there anyone on the panel that just doesn't feel bitterly sorry? So far we've discussed it. Everyone just feels so sorry for Crystal Palace.

Speaker 2 Or does anyone think, I don't know, Jordan, do you think actually when they get to the Conference League final, they win it?

Speaker 2 Not only will they, they could win it, they could win it and they could do a big up yours to your UEFA and all, you know, this could be like a really nice story for them in the end.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that'd be, that would be sweeter, but

Speaker 1 maybe I'm the Grinch here, but it is harsh.

Speaker 1 You know, Palace are my second team, if you like, so it's, it's grim for them, but A, they've probably got a better chance of success in this competition, but also, more importantly, you know, rules are rules.

Speaker 1 It is brutal. I know there are a lot of technicalities about how they fell foul the rules.
And, you know, UEFA isn't, you know, an organization that I'm massively fond of, but,

Speaker 1 rules are rules. And I think they fell foul of those rules.

Speaker 2 Who knew you were the policeman of the pod, John?

Speaker 1 Who knew?

Speaker 2 I'm just, I'm sorry. It's like the guy.

Speaker 2 It's like the guy who gave me a parking ticket yesterday.

Speaker 2 And I was like, and I'd be, I'd spent an hour on the My Ringo app website to actually park the bloody thing, but then they'd changed when the parking began. And it wasn't 8.30 a.m.
It was all night.

Speaker 2 And I only needed to pay 30p.

Speaker 1 Rules of rules.

Speaker 2 30p and I would have been fine. And I've got an 80 quid ticket, and I was saying to the traffic warden, rules of rules, rules of rules, mate.
That was very upsetting.

Speaker 1 Anyway, Fulham,

Speaker 2 I think it's quite interesting. A.B.
Chaplin's foot says, might be of interest to the pod.

Speaker 2 The quote tweets on the original Tell the Tale. We're probably the best club at putting fans last, which is a tall order in 2025, considering others.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Fulham put out a tweet saying, We will face Al-Ittihad behind closed doors in Portugal. But it appears they told lots of fans they would be playing them

Speaker 1 in front of closed doors or in front of open doors or whatever the reverse is. All these Fulham fans saying, what?

Speaker 2 I'm flying to Faro to watch Fulham. Now it's behind closed doors.

Speaker 2 You can find other things to do. Oh, sort of be quietly pleased.
But yes, a bit annoying if you've booked tickets to go there and then you can't actually watch the game.

Speaker 2 The football regulator has become law, everybody. Keir Starmer said the bill was a proud and defining moment for English football and will usher in a stronger, fairer future for the game.

Speaker 2 Kevin Miles, mate of the pod, from the chief executive of the Football Support Association, says this is an historic moment for football in this country. Power the regulator will have.

Speaker 2 Tough new financial regulations to make sure clubs have a long-term sustainable future. Stronger tests to stop rogue owners.
New standards for fan engagement and club decision-making.

Speaker 2 A ban on clubs joining closed shop competitions and breakaway leagues.

Speaker 2 Backstop powers to ensure a fair financial distribution between leagues and protections for key club heritage aspects like home shirt colours and club badges and stadium moves. I guess, Nas,

Speaker 2 the cynic in you or us or anyone will be,

Speaker 2 it feels good and the right people want it, I think, and the people who were against it are the ones that you would suspect of having quite obvious vested interests.

Speaker 2 But until it comes into practice and we see how it works, it's so hard to it's so hard to celebrate, I think.

Speaker 7 Oh, completely. I mean, it's like all these things.

Speaker 7 I mean, the mission statements sound great and

Speaker 7 all their sort of like plans seem great,

Speaker 7 but we need to have like a real-life situation where a rogue sort of owner does come in or does try and change things and see how powerful they are and how willing they are to change things.

Speaker 2 Rob says, Dear Max and Football Weekly Podcast Team, this is quite a long, detailed email, but Rob has really put the work in.

Speaker 2 As the long and desperate off-season dragged on, as we've just discussed, it hasn't, there hasn't been one, Rob, but look, congratulations for finding it on whichever Thursday that was.

Speaker 2 Without even the Club World Cup delays to suffer through and tired of waiting for Arsenal to finalise the Yokarez deal, I found myself spiraling into what some might call statistical overreach, deciding to calculate the forecast accuracy scores for your previous season's predictions.

Speaker 2 I went full spreadsheet mode, running two different models to assess how well or how wildly last year's panelists performed.

Speaker 2 Firstly, I used a points-based method based on 20, but congratulations to anyone who is still listening, based on 20 points for correctly predicting the Premier League winner, 5 points each for correctly placing the teams in the top 4 or bottom 3, resulting in an accuracy percentage based on a maximum of 55 points.

Speaker 2 Secondly, I used a forecast error model that compared each panelist's predicted log position for their top 4 and bottom 3 with their actual finish and used this to calculate an average accuracy based on total positional differences.

Speaker 2 Finally, I used the average of the two models to produce a single blended forecast accuracy percentage, which I fondly dubbed the PLXP Premier League expectation precision percentage and the results are in would anybody like to know the results go on

Speaker 1 I do okay

Speaker 2 you were in it Jordan that's interesting sixth place John Bruin he got three of the top four was derailed by having Spurs in four fourth only correctly predicted one relegation team with his expectations of Forrest who as you know finished seventh and Everton sealing his undoing final score 56%

Speaker 2 fifth max nailed Arsenal in second and Liverpool in fourth was also tempted by Spurs in third called Leicester and Southampton to go down, but horribly underestimated Forrest. Overall, 60.9%.

Speaker 1 Fourth, Jordan.

Speaker 2 Well done. A solid three out of four at the top, but with Aston Villa in second, called Southampton and Ipswich for the drop.
Also had Brentford 10th to the mix. Accuracy, 67%.

Speaker 2 These were our previews of last season. These are on our, if you want to listen back, a completist would listen back and double check the previews we did and double check.

Speaker 2 Lucy came third, three of the top four picks, but with Liverpool fourth, another seduced by Sad Spurs gets full marks for correctly identifying the relegated teams, 69.1%. Jonathan Wilson second.

Speaker 2 You see where this is going.

Speaker 2 Predicted three or four, tripped out by Man United in fourth, but like Lucy Ward, spot on with the bottom three, correctly played Southampton Stone last, final accuracy, 71.2%.

Speaker 2 Barry Glendenning, our champion,

Speaker 2 and a healthy bonus of picking the winner, wisely ignored both Spurs and Man United, with only Villa spoiling an otherwise clairvoyant top four in the relegation zone.

Speaker 2 Forrest befuddled him two, but he nailed southampton and leicester he is the winner for 2024 25 84.5 percent so that is devastating for all of us isn't it but uh well done to barry glindenning uh who's currently um

Speaker 2 sort of basically if you ever have you ever watched alone have you watched alone

Speaker 2 he's in deepest nova scotia sort of he's had to build a hut out of things he can find and he has to kill a moose with his bare hands and then and eat that for six weeks if he survives we'll have him back on the pod.

Speaker 2 Um, anyway, thanks again for the brilliant entertainment, says Rob. Your forecasts were almost as fun to analyze as they were to listen to.
I look forward to the new season.

Speaker 2 I hope the crystal balls are ready. Another spreadsheet awaits.
Okay, well, our previews are what? In a couple of weeks' time, I think. But thank you, Rob.

Speaker 2 Finally, Moonlight Hanger says, Given that Nas is writing fringe previews these days, which of the panel would he most likely to see do two weeks in Edinburgh?

Speaker 2 I was going to say, which recent or current Premier League manager, but we all know the answer to those questions is always Sean Deich. Of course, it is.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, you can pick a football weekly panelist, or you can pick a you know a football manager or whoever you want. What are you writing North?

Speaker 7 I just

Speaker 7 do like previews and sort of best of the fringe sort of for Rolling Stone. So yeah, I uh

Speaker 7 I enjoy those. Um I'll I'll I'll go I'll be going to see your other podcast co-host as well.

Speaker 1 So that'll be that'll be good.

Speaker 7 I mean, I mean, going back to the question, has any of that has any of that rubbed off on you? Have you sort of become funnier?

Speaker 1 What by hanging around with David Agotherty?

Speaker 2 That's a good question. I mean, it's not for me to say, is it Nas? You know?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 7 I mean,

Speaker 7 the only thing I'd say is that it definitely wouldn't be Jordan because Jordan would sort of like say, well, rules are rules, and that actually that joke doesn't work for this reason.

Speaker 1 Damn right, damn right.

Speaker 1 Anyway, I'll go and read them, Nas.

Speaker 2 And if you haven't ever been to Medham before, it is good fun.

Speaker 7 You say it's good fun. You also have silent discos and

Speaker 7 Oxbridge pressures doing sort of like street performances. So it's.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that's good and bad, but you know, like bad is also good, right?

Speaker 1 You know, like, yeah, exactly. You know,

Speaker 8 anyway, that'll be for today.

Speaker 2 Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Nikki.

Speaker 6 Thanks.

Speaker 1 Thanks, Nas.

Speaker 7 Thank you.

Speaker 2 Cheers, Jordan. Cheers, Merry.
Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Daniel Stevens.
We'll be back tomorrow.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.