England made to suffer by Senegal and a Welsh thriller in Belgium – Football Weekly podcast

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Is the Tuchel honeymoon over?

Was there ever a honeymoon?

England concede their first goals and their first defeat under their new manager.

It must have been a pretty insipid international camp.

Did we play 4-4-2?

That feels feels very 80s or 90s, whatever it was.

It didn't really work.

Things might have been different if Anthony Gordon had put England two up, but he didn't.

And then Senegal took over.

Their goals look preventable, but is the shirt starting to cliche alert, weigh heavily again?

Where is Sir Gareth and his handbreak?

Also, today, Ellis James voice note incoming after an incredible comeback, then late heartbreak in Belgium and wins for Scotland and Northern Ireland.

We'll talk Pep speaking out over Gaza and some interesting Man City transfer business as the mini club World Cup transfer window slams shut.

All that plus your questions.

And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning.

Hello.

Hello, Max.

Good morning, Nada Manuaha.

Good morning, sir.

And welcome, John Bruin.

Good morning.

And he says, is it the cricket season yet?

Petey says, does Barry think Tuchel will make it to the end of the Club World Cup?

Yes, England won.

Senegal three.

A crescendo of booze at the city ground.

Ahead of the game, Thomas Tuchel said he wanted England to play with a smile.

Barry, did you watch with a smile?

Not really.

I can't get past the fact that it's a friendly and therefore it doesn't really matter.

But if I was an England fan, I would be concerned about those two performances.

Thomas Tuchel has signed up for 18 months.

You ask if the honeymoon's over.

It's very much an arranged marriage that's going to end quickly in divorce, one way or the other.

And

I think the honeymoon is very much over.

Excuses were made for England for that awful performance against Andorra.

Oh, they're tired.

Oh, Andorra were playing a very low block, and it's hard to break through that.

But Senegal didn't play low block.

They took the game to England and were much better at it than England were.

I think they were more than worthy winners.

They were more cohesive.

They were quicker.

They were incisive.

They were hungrier.

And England looked very nervy and passive going forward.

No creativity there to speak of.

They were a mess at the back, a real shambles.

And

because this is quite early in Thomas Tuchel, I keep being about to call him Thomas Frank, Thomas Tuchel's reign, you would think these players should be running through brick walls in their efforts to impress them.

But a lot of them look very disinterested or even bored

and almost as if these games are beneath them.

Now, I don't know if that's genuine attitude or if it is the waves of the shirt and they just get paralyzed with terror every time they put on this magical garment.

I just don't know.

But yeah,

that's my read on the two games I've just seen.

As Barry said, Nathan there, you know, like Senegal, I mean, they look like they wanted it more.

They certainly, I thought, were the better team.

The first African side to ever beat England.

I know you've covered a lot of African football.

I don't want to overstate what beating England means, but I wonder sort of historically for Senegal how big that is.

I think it's not only just big for Senegal.

As you say, it's big for the continent.

I think as you saw that third goal go in yesterday, like they're running down the touchline in a friendly game, you know, friendly games that we don't...

you know, we tend not to see too many friendly games in general these days.

So you can see how much that means to them.

And I think from the England perspective, you can play it down, say it's the end of the season, it's this, there were changes and so on and so forth.

But a game of football is always going to be an important game of football for whomever's playing.

For those players, you can see it meant everything, what it means to the people that had the chance to witness that at the city ground, the ones who'd be watching from home or around the world.

Like,

it's a huge moment.

I think in my mind as well, I think it's the 16th time that England have played against an African side.

And in my mind, I just thought it would have been more.

But then you think, well, when was the last time they played against the African side?

And to be honest, I couldn't tell you.

So it's hugely significant.

And for some of those players, you know, they've played in England, they've played in Europe and so on.

So these are sort of familiar faces that they're going up against.

But to be able to do that as a national side is huge.

You know, the belief is certainly going to be there.

When you look at, say, Senegal, I think they're on a good run as well.

I think they're unbeaten in like, I don't know, 10 plus games or something.

They're in a good space.

And we saw yesterday, if you could watch the game beyond just through the lens of like how England are doing.

you saw a very good Senegal side, you know, a good Senegal side that, you know, competes at the top level within African football, competes and wants to compete on the national stage as well.

I was very, very impressed by them.

Obviously the England side of things is different.

But I think also as well from the England perspective, as players sometimes you try and

you try and seem quite cool, calm and composed.

But then the way that Senegal played against them didn't allow them to be that.

And I think when you look at some of the faces that are in that England side who aren't necessarily going to be regulars or people who maybe we don't expect to start next year, like is that going to be the starting 11?

Potentially not.

It's almost like you want to show something.

But again, that something wasn't what was required in this game in itself.

And I think some of the mistakes that we saw for some of the goals came from people who you know haven't got a long-standing relationship instead of on in terms of understanding how to work together in any particular moment and again i love the fact that senegal just took it to them because then you have that gut check are you going to be able to handle this and for england on the day they absolutely did not as i say all credit goes to senegal in my opinion and i think from the england perspective tuka's going to walk away and to be fair i've got to say Pretty much all those players are going to be walking away and saying, now this season's finally over.

Let's have a break and get ready for the next one.

And I know that's the case for some of the the Senegalese players as well.

But, you know, it's a friendly game at the start of June in the season that many began back at the start of July.

In fact, no, it didn't because it was Euros last year, wasn't it?

So this season's basically never ended.

Yeah, I think they'll just have to scrub this one off and have it as a good reminder.

And hopefully, they've done enough to get another chance under the new manager.

And bring on the Club World Cup, of course, for those players who have to go straight to that.

We go again.

Yes.

Did England play 4-4-2, as producer Joel says, 4-4-2 call?

I mean, I wasn't quite sure.

Well, yeah, I mean, that was the sort of heart of the Ivan Tony debate, which is that Thomas Tuchel talking afterwards talked about he wanted this sort of fluid forward

in attack.

That was rather than playing a centre forward when Harry Kane came off, brought on Morgan Rodgers.

It did look that way.

I think one of the issues is that Thomas Tuchel is getting used to international management when we know he's a manager of fairly complicated stratagems.

And you know, you try and get players to follow instructions, and it takes time and you don't have time.

But, I mean, actually, Ned mentioned the fact that last time England played an African team, I think it was actually Senegal.

Senegal in Qatar, was it?

Yeah, the 2022 World Cup.

Now, the scorers were Jordan Henderson, Harry Kane, and Bacayo Saka.

Now, whatever happened to those guys with Thomas Tuchel, I'm getting a sort of post-1990 vibe from England.

You know, this Graham Taylor thing.

Now, Graham Taylor compared to Thomas Tuchel, quite different coaches, quite different individuals, of course.

But you know, you inherit a team where the best players are sort of exhausted.

Yeah.

Like,

think of who's the best central defendant?

Nathan will have more expertise on this, but you probably think it's Jon Stones, right?

Or someone like that.

John Stones is a player who isn't really available.

He's probably giving his best.

In midfield, someone like Jordan Henderson has given his best.

You've got players, even someone like Declan Rice that's given their all.

You've got Harry Kane towards the end of his career.

And

Thomas Tookle is asked to refresh this team with a lot of youngsters.

And there's a lot of promising youngsters, but it's not that easy.

Say someone look at like Miles Lewis Skelly.

None of us here doubt the guy's talent.

Of course not.

But we wonder, can he play in that position?

Is he disciplined enough to play in that position?

What happens happens to, say,

does Lewis Hall need to come in or something like that?

And all those questions are being asked.

Thomas Huggle is having to do it on the fly.

Meanwhile, he's been asked questions about: is the England shirt weighing too heavy?

It comes up against a Senegalese team that is both good and motivated.

And he was talking, actually, wasn't he, about how he's in the dressing room, and the Senegalese players are going mantle in celebrating and all that, as they should do.

And it was almost like England and Senegal came at that game with different objectives and different level of competitiveness.

And that says what's going to happen in a game like that.

Senegal wanted to win that game.

England were just, oh, we're just testing things out mode.

You can't really do that, can you?

You can't get away with it.

I feel this game brings a close to this sort of like funny stage of Tuchel's tenureship because going into the next season, you'll have not just a manager, but a bunch of players that will do everything they can to be ready and successful next summer.

So as this new season begins in the September, October, November international windows, that those players will be doing everything they can to make sure that there's no doubt that they should be there to get a chance to play at the World Cup for their nation.

You know, we won't just see this with England, we'll see this all across the board.

And obviously the qualifiers will form a big part of that.

But it is a sense of seriousness to where if you were to speak to Tuchel after games, I think he'll be a lot more decisive in terms of what he says he likes and what he does not like.

And we'll start to see who they really are.

Because again, to talk about that game yesterday, like it was good to see England traveling around the country good to see them you know playing somewhere like the city ground but then it's like this weird position where people say they don't like friendlies but then also they overreact to friendlies at the same time all that stuff goes in the bin going forward because the the scale of the task you know it's very much apparent now and they'll be judged differently i feel but nadam do you think because we've talked about this the other day do you think he's because he's obviously he's here for a short term this arranged marriage go and win the world cup so he's not thinking about the future but he's picking people like jordan henderson and kyle walker you know they don't necessarily feel like the right players.

I know they're old, so you don't have to worry about, you know, that is actively not thinking about the future.

But do you think he is picking the right people?

Or do you think the squad will be massively different?

In which case, why is he picking them now?

That's a good question.

And I think for...

Thank you so much.

No, listen, it's been rare, but you've done it.

I think it's about...

I think for Tuchel, it's about seeing that group of players and how they sort of combine together.

Because as they go to the World Cup next year, if you had, say, I think it's a squad of 25, 26, if you had that many people without people who've experienced it, that haven't experienced it before, then it could be bumps along along the way, which maybe they don't know how to navigate.

Because we know that talent-wise, England have a ton of it, and some of it's really, really young.

But would you feel comfortable and confident that they'd have more of a chance of winning the World Cup without some level of experience there?

And I think for those players who are on the other side, knowing this is their last tournament, potentially, I'd imagine they'd really want to go out on a high note as well.

And yes, you know, we're talking about Kyle, we're talking about Jordan, people who maybe have had some of their best years behind them, but these people can still be of huge influence.

Like John just mentioned there, Mars Louis Skelly, you know, is supreme talent, but then also some of these moments are different.

Like for their second goal, the decision-making there is coming from somebody who is 18 and essentially isn't a full-time left back.

You know, this is a midfielder.

So you need people to be able to help them understand like what to do in these moments.

And sometimes at that stage, you can't really fall into youngsters having discussions about what they should and shouldn't be doing.

You need somebody that knows defensively what's going to happen.

So I think for Tuchel's understanding, he'll know the value of experience.

And I think if you can bring players on board who don't necessarily expect to play every single game, you know, as long as they're not performing, you know, if they're performing to their absolute best and they're the obvious option, then great.

But I think these guys understand the role.

They understand what the value could be for them winning a World Cup for England for the first time, I don't know, in probably half the nation's lifetime.

So

I get it.

Maybe it'll change over time, but I think anybody that's going to be there next summer will also need to be playing well.

And I think some of the older guys...

Are you in a WhatsApp group with both of them?

Just, you know, just to...

No, no, no, no, no, absolutely not.

No.

Like, you're calling them older, and I'm older than them, so I can't really say too much.

At least they're still active and successful.

I've got nothing to do with that.

But they're definitely older.

They're really younger than us.

Look, Gibbs White was good when he came on.

Barry, you're a big fan.

I am, yeah.

And he came on, he tried to make things happen.

Further to our conversation on Monday, when we were talking about people who would be better off playing in the Henderson role than Henderson, we left out Adam Wharton,

who you're a big fan of.

That was a

thought of it afterwards, like, oh, dope.

But yeah, I am a big fan of Morgan Gibbs White.

I don't know if he will start for England.

He may not have as good a season next campaign as he did this season.

Areas of concern, I would say.

More petulance from Jude Bellingham, who does seem to be developing a bit of an attitude problem.

I think maybe

I've commented on this before.

It looks like he might be getting a bit too big for his boots.

I thought Dean Henderson played well as well, even though he let that one in through his legs.

But

yeah, he was pretty decent.

I think he could give Pickford a run for his money when it comes to first-choice goalkeeper.

I suppose for Gibbs White, you know, by the end of the summer, you know, if Nottingham Forest keeps pushing us there, they'll probably be the Champions League by the time they've sent enough letters to

you Avalan.

We'll get to that.

Do you think Ivan Tony had a good time, John, coming back for this?

I was watching him on the bench, and someone was telling me that they think that Tuchel is a bit annoyed how much he's asked about Ivan Tony, one of the chaps in the camp, but because

it's become this, which would just make you ask him about him all the time, wouldn't it?

It's one more, Thomas.

And you know what?

They do.

I was listening to the press conference from last night, and I think he got asked about Tony at least two times.

It might even have been three.

Because I suppose, being English, we have the obsession with the centre-forward, and we have Harry Kane, we know all about that.

But who's going to be the next, you know, the follow-up the support centre-forward?

And, of course, Ivan Tony has this sort of well, we don't know much about Ivan Tony anymore because he plays in Saudi Arabia and he scored lots of goals there.

And we'd like to know whether he's any good.

Perhaps the one person that knows whether he's any good for his system is Thomas Tuchel, who is training this guy and was talking about how he sees Tony as someone to come on in the last 10 minutes and you know mix stuff up but it he was delayed because of the Bellingham did disallow goal and the VAR nonsense that you know he was supposed to come on with 10 minutes to play ended up coming on with after 87 and having say eight minutes to to impress now we all know that uh

despite jose mourinho once telling uh a press back of which i was one they could tell a player in two minutes whether he was good Two minutes, that's good.

Yeah, was it two minutes or something like that?

I think it was ten.

It was ten.

Yes, well, yeah, it was a it was a pre, it was a Premier League launch event, one, and he told us this at a time when, you know,

I think this is when people were saying, Why aren't you playing this De Bruyne guy and uh, you know, this Salah?

Why don't you, why don't you play them?

Oh, I've seen him play for ten minutes, they're not good enough.

But obviously, two quads are similar view to Tony, and he sees him as a some pinch hitter type of guy.

Uh, Ivan Tony himself has has spoken, I believe, about this, saying, hey, listen, I can offer a lot more.

Why wouldn't he say that?

But Ivan Toney,

if we know anything about Thomas Tuchel, may have to settle for that role if he wants to play for England because Tuchel is fairly single-minded.

Question for the panel and just wider audience as such.

Like, when it comes down to Ivan Toney...

So the issue is the Saudi Arabia thing, not anything else.

Okay.

And do you think we share the same view as other nations around the world and in Europe, that because you're playing there, clearly you're not functional anymore?

Or is it just like a general thought?

Because I looked at, say, in that same game, you've got Eduard Mendy and Coulibali like playing for Senegal and being, you know, really important for their sides.

But I don't know, again, how much we've seen of their teams.

And I know he's the outlier in a very extreme manner, but Roberto Martinez is still picking Christian Ronaldo at 55 years old or whatever he is now,

playing in said league.

So is it about, is it us having a perception that because you're there, clearly you're no good anymore?

Or is it valid that you're not good anymore because you're playing there?

Well, I don't think the Saudi Arabia factor is the only thing

with Ivan Tony.

I think whether it's deserved or not, and I have no idea whether it's deserved or not, Ivan Tony has a reputation for being difficult.

And maybe Tuchel wanted to see him in a squad environment to see if that's the case.

I also think it's an undeniable fact.

Ivan Tony takes a great penalty.

He does not miss penalties.

He's a good fella to have there if you're ticking down, the clock's ticking down towards a penalty shootout.

Bring him on.

So I don't think so.

I definitely think Saudi Arabia is a factor and that Premier League fans tend to be very dismissive of it without ever watching it.

And I'm certainly one of those people.

But I don't think it's the only factor where Tony's concerned.

Does it think it depends what position you play?

I'm just wondering if, like, you know, if your role is to come on for the last 15 minutes and, you know, be a handful up top, which he was in the last tournament, wasn't he, Tony?

Came on, made a big difference.

Yes, it was, yeah, yeah.

That's slightly different to if you're playing, you know, centre-mid.

I mean, but I don't know.

I'm just, I'm just speculating or not.

Well, the thing is, we don't, I suppose one of the things is we don't know the value of goals in the Saudi Arabian League, do we?

That's one of the

things that they might be worth the same as Premier League goals, or they might be, you know.

they might be like Dutch goals, five, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.

What was the guy that uh Middlesbrough signed?

Uh, oh, I was thinking of Vincent Janssen, but yeah,

well, Big Vinny Jansen's a good example, yeah, Afonso Alves, who you know, rattled in, and you just don't know what those goals are worth, and that may be, and also that's the fascination amongst the press pack, isn't it?

Because Saudi Arabia, the Saudi Arabian League holds a certain edge of mystery, doesn't it?

We It is this sort of city of gold that we don't know how good the football is.

And we've seen Ronaldo.

Ronaldo seems to be better at 40 than he was at like 35.

So who knows?

Who knows what goes on there?

The Saudi Arabian Pro League thing is interesting because as I'm with you, it's a real mystery.

But it's like a mystery as if we can't access to see what it looks like.

You know what I mean?

It's so daft.

It's a mystery of laziness, isn't it?

Yeah,

I cannot.

I just can't.

I just can't even begin to think where to see how to watch this i cannot be asked to tune into de zone yeah you know

you made a good point there because you were talking about ronaldo being better at 14 it reminds me in some ways of like tom brady's nfl career where you could split it in three and it's like three hall of fame careers where he's done way more than everybody else and ronaldo's still doing it like I mean,

it's a bit of a shambles, really, isn't it?

But he shouldn't be that good and be that effective at that age.

But he is, I maintain, like a lot of our panelists, these, Portugal would spread their wings if he wasn't there.

Well, Nations League champions, you know what I mean?

How far can you spread them?

You can only win what's in front of you, eh?

Don't come at me, Ronaldo fan.

Oh, good luck.

I'll get him.

I've experienced that before.

Nice to see the city ground.

And the Chalibars become the third set of brothers to represent England post-war after the Charltons and the Nevilles.

And I had forgotten that Nathaniel Chalabar played once for England in 2018.

Garris Southgate had a big faith.

He really thought Nathaniel Chalibar was going to be the one, didn't he?

But unfortunately, injuries, I think, probably got in the way of that, didn't he?

That's...

There you go.

Anyway, that'll do for part one.

Part two will begin with an Ellis James voice note.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today, it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

It's an amazing game in Belgium.

Belgium with 3-deal up.

Wells brought it back to 3-3.

Belgium with a last-minute winner from Kevin De Bruyne.

And Nick says, Oh my word, it's going to be an Ellis James voice note for the ages tonight, and here it is.

Hello, Max.

I actually recorded one of these voice notes straight after the game.

I listened to it back.

Max, it was incoherent.

It made little to no sense.

So, this is second take.

Let's start with the headlines: Belgium 4, Wales 3.

What

a breathless, mesmerizing game of football.

We were 3-0 down after 27 minutes, an extremely chastening, humbling half-hour.

It was Bellamy's 10th game in charge,

unbeaten in his first nine.

So it's his first defeat.

Always going to happen, obviously.

Although that said, when you haven't lost for nine games and you love your manager, and your manager appears incredibly wise in his sort of press conferences and post-match interviews, etc.

And four and a half thousand Wales fans are in the away end.

And you walk into the ground and there's Welsh people everywhere.

A small part of me thought, maybe it's different.

Maybe we don't lose now.

Maybe every single thing I've ever wanted is actually going to come true and I'm going to live this tremendously charmed life.

Maybe we just win all the time with a Raphael Nadal of

football somehow.

But no, no, we lost 4-3.

I'm not going to labour this or dwell on this point because it does make me sound like I played sort of football in the GM Vauxhall conference in the late 80s.

The first, the penalty, Belgium's first goal, which obviously changed the game, I mean, Brennan Johnson, his arm is behind him.

If his arm is there,

if that's a penalty,

how are you meant to defend in the box?

What are you meant to be doing in the box?

I mean, I don't want to use phrases like going to hell in a hand cart or the game's gone, but camera, it's extremely harsh.

That said, Belgium were by far the better side in the first 30 minutes.

De Bruyne was superb.

Doku, crikey Moses, I mean the guy.

Bellamy had coached him as a kid.

And I thought to myself, maybe he's got some secret.

But he said in one of his pre-match interviews, he said,

no, that guy would lose you in a phone box.

And I mean, he was sensational.

Obviously, then we're 3-0 down.

Now, Bellamy didn't make enormous tactical changes after half-time.

We were allowed back into the game because there was a penalty on the stroke of half-time.

Harry Wilson scored to make it 3-1, and then we just had our tails up.

And as I said, Bellamy didn't make enormous tactical changes, but

large periods of the second half, we were the better side.

At points, we were absolutely brilliant.

And to make it 3-all,

I mean, it was absolute chaos in the Wales end.

And if we'd held on for a point, that would have been, that would have gone down in the pantheon of really, well, I mean, it would have been better than some of our greatest victories, I think.

I don't think we'd ever come back from 3-0 down away to draw or win a game.

But yeah, it was just very, very exciting.

Obviously, it's tremendously disappointing that we've lost.

Harry Wilson was great.

Sorber Thomas was fantastic.

Stork have got themselves a really good player there.

Wilson, in particular, has got real main character energy.

He was really, he was all over the place, and he just looks dangerous every time he's on the ball.

But the exciting thing for me, I think, is just that there's such a buzzer on the side.

Like, there were four and a half thousand Wales fans out there last night.

I was talking to loads of people.

They're all going to Kazakhstan.

It's three and a half thousand miles away.

It's too far.

But that's the sort of thing.

There's this just big, big momentum shift in Welsh football at the moment.

And I'm loving it.

That said,

I think

I'm the real hero last night because I got a very early Eurostart back because I was playing football at half past one.

I was playing five aside because I hashtag love the game.

And Ellis, very proud that he is off to play football, and he is an athlete.

He's sort of, you know, worryingly ripped for a comedian.

I don't think comedians should be in good shape if you, you know, if you want my opinion.

Anyway, look, I think Baz Ellis has summed that up pretty well.

The winner does feel like a huge moment for that group, as we said on Monday.

If Wales could have have got a point or even better, it would put them in such a great position.

Yeah, and from a moment where it looked like all hope was lost, they got it back level, should have got a point.

Belgium scored, I had a goal disallowed somewhat dubiously, I think, and they got away with that.

And then they let in a really soft winner.

So

reasons to be cheerful with that performance and also reasons to be sad because it could prove very costly.

I personally would have preferred to have heard Ellis's first version.

Yes, me too.

Yes,

at least the incoherent one.

I agree.

Because

a lot of Brits go to Belgium and make the critical error of not checking the volume of alcohol in their beverage of choice, and it can end badly.

He spoke of the scenes that greeted Wales' third goal.

Remarkably, one Wales fan actually fell out of the top tier of the stand when that goal went in and escaped unscathed.

Just carried on celebrating.

Well, no, he was taken to hospital but released soon after with very minor injuries.

Lucky boy.

The refereeing in this game was atrocious.

It was a really brilliant game to watch, but the refereeing was atrocious.

There were so many interminable far checks.

As Ellis said, Belgium's first penalty shouldn't have been given.

There were a couple of other iffy decisions, at least one of which went in Wales's favour.

No, two went in Wales's favour, I think.

But

good performance and

shouldn't have lost in the end, but they did.

They will look forward to getting Belgium back to Cardiff, I'd say.

They'll fancy other chances.

I was going to say that Kevin De Bruyne, he looks good, doesn't he?

In regards to De Bruyne for the last like 18 months at Man City, like people have been speaking about him like he's the same age as Ronaldo.

And then for perspective, you realise it's the same age as a Mosala.

So yes, he might not have been at his absolute best, but there's still plenty in the tank.

And I think the way he played for Belgium the other day was one showing.

But also, like, the way Jeremy Doku played as well, I was thinking, oh my goodness gracious me, he could get past anyone he wanted whenever he fancied it.

But yeah,

it's a tough loss for Wales.

And I just hope from their perspective...

Because sometimes you're guilty of this within football and you could arguably say life as well.

You see something the first time and you think, tell you what, I'm going to get them the next time.

Then the next time comes and they've changed as well and you find yourself in the same position.

So, yeah, let's not go too big on believing that they're definitely going to get a result back in Wales.

They'll have a good chance, but it's still a very, very good Belgian side.

And also, final point: the VAR checks were really, really long, but when you get them right in your favor, I swear, time is no factor.

Take as long as you need.

Like, was the case with that disallowed goal?

Oh,

no, Craig Bellamy's on the side, adamant.

Yeah, and it's funny because looking at him as a former teammate, I know how worked up he would have been from when it initially happened.

He's getting so angry, so angry, so angry.

Then it's confirmed.

He says, Yeah, of course, of course.

20 minutes later.

But, you know, unfortunately, it just wasn't going to be.

Scotland on Vornell in Lichtenstein, Barry Hat-trick for Chey Adams.

Yeah, and

I think that makes it four goals in 21 appearances for him now, three of them against Lichtenstein.

We spoke about the Scottish goalkeepers.

Ross Doohan

was in goal for Scotland after cutting short a family holiday to Turkey to play in this game.

I'll be honest, he could have been named in the starting lineup.

He could have stayed in Turkey.

It wouldn't have made any difference.

And it would have been the easiest cap anyone had ever earned.

But

yeah, Scotland gave Davies to five or six players, I think.

Lennon Miller was quite impressive.

And

there's not a huge amount you can read into this result.

Steve Clarke was, I would say, quite unhappy about, he was still stewing over the result against Iceland when he spoke after this game.

If you'd have said Steve Clark was overjoyed, I would have been very surprised because he's never been over, well, he's never been overjoyed.

Speaking of Iceland, Baz, they lost one nil in Northern Ireland, didn't they?

So Northern Ireland haven't started the World Cup qualifiers yet.

They're in a group with Germany, Slovakia, Luxembourg.

Presentation before this game for Stephen Davis and Johnny Evans, who've both retired from international duty.

They must have about a thousand caps between them, you'd think.

Isaac Price, the West Brom midfielder, scored his ninth goal for Northern Ireland with a nice curl shot from outside the box.

Ronan Hale made his debut and was quite impressive.

And Northern Ireland finished the game last 30 minutes with 10 men and held on.

And there was good Sunderland representation in this game.

Trey Hume and Dan Ballard combined at one stage.

Ballard put a header narrowly wide.

But yeah, good win for Northern Ireland.

Hope the Mackhams.

Can I ask a question to the group again?

I'm sorry I'm asking all these questions.

Max, I'm not trying to be awesome.

You've already established that Max doesn't ask many good ones.

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Hey, it's meant to be a conversation.

Of course, it's a podcast, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah,

I hope this question ends up being okay.

But when I was watching the Belgium game, it was interesting watching Lukaku playing.

And did you know his goal record for Belgium?

Because this is in relation to Ludicrous, isn't it?

This really relates to something that you said, John.

So he's got 89 goals in 124 games for Belgium, yeah.

And Harry Kane is on 70,

73 and 107.

You were mentioned before about what's the value of those goals scored in the Netherlands.

Like, why is it such a different conversation between Lukaku and Kane when, relatively speaking, the goal records for the international sides on the same continent is either comparable or actually favours Lukaku?

Like, he's almost perceived to not be this great goal scorer.

How does that work?

on the international stage?

It depends on what country you're in with your perspective on Lukaku, because

in this country, we think of Lukaku as a player who was very, very talented and never quite made it.

Yet in Italy, he is the key to a couple of championship wins under Antonio Conte.

And whenever we turn up at a tournament, he appears to be the main man.

Now,

was it the last tournament where he was quite poor?

Was that right?

Where he

was missing a load.

And everyone just says, oh, yeah, that's just Lukaku.

You mean like Harry Kane was as well?

But the Manchester United United United United

is the curse of Manchester United to throw into the mix, of course.

I actually thought it was okay for United.

Yeah.

Yeah, Barry would probably put them both in the big game bottler camp.

No, I'm a huge Ramalu Lukaku fan.

I've liked him since the days he was on lawn at West Brom.

No, I agree with you, but there are big games.

I'm just thinking, you know, that Champions League final where for into against City,

you know,

you know, that is, I mean, I'm basing it all on that.

So maybe he's not bottled other big games.

Do you remember that?

There was the

CBS thing with him and Thierry Henri before that.

I think after the semi-final, and it was, he did this whole thing because I think him and Henri are quite good friends, aren't they?

And they were talking, and it was like,

this time I've cracked it.

This time I really am going to deliver on the bigger, you know, one of those sort of fateful interviews where

they just didn't come through for him.

But I don't, I mean, listen, Lukaku is one of those eternal figures.

He's been around forever and he always seems to score goals for Belgium.

He always seems to be good in Italy.

It always seems to be linked with a move back to England where you think that probably won't work out.

Yeah, I wonder, Nadim, if the point is actually more the value of international goals when so many of them are scored against, you know, teams playing a low block or, you know, like that.

You sort of have to, it's like when you look at.

Would that not be the case for belgium playing out though as well case for both i'm sure i mean i don't have it in front of me of who they've scored their goals against so shea adams flat track bully is what you're saying

obviously there's no there's no like answer to the question as such but i'm sure most of the people listening have a not as maybe it's a subconscious bias to think that lukaku is not the second highest goal scorer in european football history at this national level yeah just behind ronaldo so well not just behind i think everyone's just behind ronaldo but again it's just perception-wise because when they read the goal record out, it's always like, oh, it's really impressive.

And then we just move on straight away.

You know, he's doing it against, I don't know, Liechtenstein.

Well, no, so it's Harry Kane, then.

Isn't that the way it works?

It's a good question.

So, what we've got is Ronaldo shouldn't be playing.

Yep.

Kane is a big game bottle and Lukaku's hopeless.

And that is today's guy in football weekly.

Thanks, guys.

I'd like to both Neil Arlen Neil.

Not much to report on the pitch, Barry, but off the pitch, sort of another nail in the coffin of basically men's football's attitude to domestic and sexual violence, I think.

Yeah, there's a cloud over Luxembourg football at the moment.

Their star player is a fellow called Gerson Rodriguez, and he has been convicted of domestic abuse, beating up his girlfriend, a lady called Emily Bolan, a TV presenter.

He was picked to play against Slovenia at the weekend, and there were protests by Luxembourg fans who unfurled banners, and then the banners were confiscated in what seems to have been a quite heavy-handed manner.

And then in the build-up to this game, a journalist from the Irish Independent repeatedly asked

the Luxembourg coach,

who is a fellow called Luke Holtz,

about the decision to pick Rodriguez.

and what it said about Luxembourg football's attitude towards domestic violence.

violence and

Holtz more or less refused to answer the question and someone from the Luxembourg FA fielded all those questions and he said it's not for the public or the journalists or you to give him a second punishment he has been punished by the courts.

Holst I think did eventually mumble an answer when he was pressed and said more or less the same thing.

But there seems to be I think a lot of Luxembourg fans understand that we don't want him anywhere near the national team.

And there seems to be a

school of thought that if he was not as good as he is, he would be banned for the Luxembourg team.

The victim of his abuse, she posted on social media ating Luke Holst, the manager, going, what if this was your daughter?

And it was a picture of her with a very swollen face, you know, the result of his

beating.

Yeah, it's a very pertinent question.

He was found guilty of three counts of assault and battery in March of this year, had an 18-month suspended prison sentence, 1500 Euro fine, also ordered to pay

2,500 euros in damages.

The Luxembourg FA said that an ethics committee would look into the circumstances surrounding Rodriguez's inclusion.

And that quote from the manager, you say, Luke Holtz, we live in a democracy.

Everyone has the right to their opinion.

I do not feel empowered to judge Gerson Rodriguez.

That is the role of a judge.

Other business.

I watched the highlights of Fair Islands, Gibraltar, just to feel like Paul Watson and Gibraltar were a goal up and very excited for them.

I think they're worse than the Faroe Islands.

This is where I don't become Paul Watson, who could tell us that this was actually, you know, could have been a massive upset.

I don't know, but the Fair Islands won it in the end.

Spoleti's final game in Italy was a pretty tedious tool-look win over Moldova.

Australia beat Saudi Arabia 2-1 to confirm their place at the World Cup next year.

Many congratulations to our Australian listeners.

Only the second time Australia and New Zealand have qualified for the same World Cup.

uh so hopefully new zealand get to do another dvd um they've got three three draws in the 2014 i can't remember we've talked about it before

2010 it was yeah 2010 undefeated or something it's an amazing one of my close friends uh lived in new zealand and uh posted on social media at the time it's like just because you didn't lose doesn't mean you won it because everyone was just oh yeah we were the best team at that tournament because they didn't because it's just rugby they don't understand soccer fair enough um when you mentioned saudi arabia there, I did notice actually that they are competing in this summer's CONCACAF Gold Cup.

Now, how come they got an invite?

Yeah, there's always someone in that or in the Copper America.

You're just getting your Atlas out again, guys.

That's interesting.

The US, meanwhile, lost 4-0 in a friendly against Switzerland yesterday following a petunal defeat to Turkey at the weekend.

They'd lost to Panama and CONCACAF Nations League in March.

Perhaps Potutinos has stopped ruling himself out of the Spurs job.

And in echoes of Gio Reiner's scandal from a few years ago, Christian Pulisic's dad has got involved in US MNT business.

I remember he had a podcast.

I listened to an episode of his podcast.

It was quite nice, really.

Him and his mate chatting about sport.

Has anyone been across this?

I can read it out if no one else is.

Yeah, I was going to say,

Leander Shea-Lakens, I hope I pronounced that correctly, Leander, who I know quite well, did quite a good piece on this on The Guardian's US site, still available on the UK site, about this, the fact that

US soccer soccer is actually quite a small world, I think, was his point.

That they've all known each other for generations,

and this is part of the problem.

It's not nepotism, it's sort of, I suppose, it's like the Ewings versus the Barneses or something like that from Dallas.

It's that there's warring factions in here.

It's like soccer mums, isn't it?

If there was a reality show about soccer mums, that would you know be at it competitive dads, and you know, listen, I suppose American society is

in a certain sense, in a sort of the middle classes and upwards, is it's set in a different way.

Everything is around sports teams and clubs and stuff like that in a way that it probably isn't in the UK.

And it does cause these big warfares.

And, you know, it's often the case, isn't it?

Like the mums and dads have bigger egos than the actual players themselves.

You know, Landard Olivan was covering a game for Fox Sports, and he was talking about Cristiano Ronaldo and saying, I can't help but think about our guys on vacation not wanting to play in the Gold Cup.

It's pissing me off.

In response, Christian Pulisic's dad took to his private account on Instagram, posting an image of a chat GPT response about Donovan taking a sabbatical from football in 2013.

This guy is talking about commitment, Mark Pulicic wrote in the captain.

Look in the mirror and grow a pair and call names out.

Or are you afraid next time you want to interview and you'll get rejected again?

And Christian Pulicic liked the post.

I presume Christian

was not playing as an on-holiday

is my only presumption from this.

Well, having seen Christian Pulis's or a brief extract of his documentary, I can't imagine why anyone would want to interview him because

while he may be a very nice man, he is an extraordinarily dull man.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

And you're welcome to at me, Pulisic Sr., if you want.

I really don't care.

Oh, that seems a bit harsh.

Did you want to come in, Nadim?

Or are you leaving this one?

Leaving this grenade.

No, let me jump on top of this one.

Yeah,

it is.

So I played with like Claudio Reyna, and you see all these fathers involved, and it's this sort of like small world of like US soccer.

But there's a belief that this should be a lot better, and they're very, very

good at being outspoken in America, especially when it's to do with like alleged like patriotism.

You know, you should be doing this, you should be doing that.

But then also, in my opinion, the mix is like you can't pick a US 11 that is a perfect mix of people playing domestically and those playing abroad.

But then, the two worlds are very, very different.

So, then you're disgruntled from one side if it's only the ones that play abroad or disgruntled from the other.

It's only the domestic.

And the critiques can be there, but then it's obviously easier for people in MLS, for example, to be playing because they're halfway through their season.

But for some others who've been playing for the year so far, playing abroad, then again, it's different.

And also, the story you've mentioned there, what is Christian Pulisic's dad's private Instagram story being part of an article, which is a snake that's sent out there to the world?

He's trying to leave a bit, but not too much.

He's trying to have a little private, little bit of discourse.

And now, you know, here we are, Guardian Football Weekly talking about this post that none of us saw.

But it's all a lot.

And again, for the way that they cover sport, being really, really critical of individuals from a sort of patriotic standpoint is

very, very easy to do over there.

And it's essentially a case of red meat in itself.

But, you know, Pochicino is going to be feeling the heat for sure.

Sorry, could you just pause for a second as well?

Before, you were talking about worker qualifying and you said Australia, New Zealand.

So Iran have qualified, but there's a travel ban to America.

How does that work next year?

The athletes can travel because they have a special dispensation.

Is that guaranteed?

You know?

Yeah, I think that's the case.

As I understand it, most of the officials will be able to, but not all of them.

And as for the fans,

it's something we talked about it yesterday.

We talked about it the other day, and we will keep talking about it because it's clearly bullshit,

isn't it?

Like, it's just not, it's not on.

And I would say, in defense of Christian Pulisic, you know, we don't know how fun he is in private, Barry.

We've got absolutely no idea.

He might be a great guy.

We have

in the past been roundly condemned for our

attitude towards Christian Pulisic.

Maybe that's what's...

Yeah, you're on your own with this

needless dick.

He might be wonderful.

Look, he has had a long, hard season carrying AC Milan by all accounts.

So maybe he does need a break.

I was going to say that he's Milan's best player, like he is really key to them, very good player.

Yeah,

yes, anyway, that'll do for part two.

So, don't come at me,

Mr.

Pulisic.

No, no, you take it.

No, go after him, Mr.

Pulisic.

Go for him.

Sometimes in private, you can be pretty boring, Barry.

Oh, I'm an extraordinarily dull man.

Anyway, that'll do for part two.

We'll start with Pep in part three.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day, Scratchers, from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So Pep's been awarded an honorary degree by the University of Manchester, recognising his extraordinary contribution to the city.

Over nine years, on and off the pitch.

He used his speech to talk about Gaza.

It's so painful what we see in Gaza.

It hurts all my body.

Let me be clear, it's not about ideology.

It's not about I'm right and you're wrong.

Come on, it's just about the love of life, about the care of your neighbor.

Maybe we think that we can see the boys and girls of four years old being killed with a bomb or being killed at the hospital, which is not a hospital anymore, and think it's not our business.

Yeah, fine.

We can think about that.

It's not our business, but be careful.

The next one will be ours.

The next four or five-year-old kids will be ours.

Sorry that I see my kids every morning since the nightmare started in Gaza and I'm so scared.

He also said he was deeply troubled by the wars in Sudan and Ukraine.

And I can't speak for anyone else on this panel.

I don't disagree with that message at all.

It is worth pointing out, I guess, that Manchester City are owned by Abu Dhabi.

There was a recent article in Al Jazeera where the UAE denied supplying Chinese-made weapons to the paramilitary rapid support forces, which is locked in a brutal conflict with Sudan's military government.

This is from sources, including the UN, the US and NGOs, that they are arming the RSF.

it's complex barry and like before the pod we were sort of saying again we are not necessarily designed to discuss these things in great detail but it doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss them and I think it was very interesting that Pep used that opportunity to make the comments that he did.

Yeah and he seemed quite nervous while doing so.

Reaction to his speech seems to have been largely positive and I'm not surprised because I don't think he said anything that was particularly controversial.

But he has been subjected to the usual brick bats.

Why has he waited so long to comment?

Why doesn't he care about other kids who are victims of genocide or tyranny?

Oh, but he works for Man City and their owners do bad things.

These comments are made as if they're gotchas

for Pep.

And

there seem to be people out there who seem to think that unless you speak out against all atrocities, you can't speak out against any atrocity.

And unless you speak out about these things all the time, you shouldn't speak out about them any time.

And I don't agree with that.

And we have been very critical in Newcastle's owners, but I think you can support Newcastle without supporting what their owners do.

And you can support you can work for Manchester City without being

supportive of what their owners do.

I think maybe you should be well, certainly in the case of Newcastle fans, they should be more critical of their owners.

I suppose it's more difficult when you're working for these people, but

I don't think Pep's going to be short of a few Bob if he was handed his cards.

So, yeah, it is complicated, but

I fully agree with everything he said.

I was going to say, the alternative argument, and it isn't an argument, is that people say that Pep didn't refer to hostages in Hamas in his speech, and that didn't level out what is

the heart of that conflict.

But Pep asking for a conflict like that to end, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all.

I think, from my perspective, as I listen to him speak and listen to lots of other people speak, I think, firstly, what you say obviously does matter, but depending on who's perceiving you, they might decide that what you don't say is bigger.

Most people that talk, they talk about not wanting to see conflict and wanting to see peace and not wanting to see unnecessary death and they want things to change around the world and so on.

But unfortunately, people were like well why didn't you say this and why didn't you say that but saying all the right things at the right time i don't think is possible because we've yet to see anybody be able to do it and as a consequence then it's almost like making a decision well what does this mean to you i think from some people from one side they might think well you should have mentioned this or somebody from the other side well you should have said more or someone said you should said it earlier But I think it takes, regardless of whatever it is, I think it takes a lot to come out and say it in itself because we know about the complexities of, say, the world and this conflict and so on in that region how hard it is to really say something that doesn't offend someone greatly who from their perspective will think you're 100 incorrect in what you're saying and i think from my side i perceive it as somebody who believes in peace and i think if you were to ask him ask him so well what does this mean and talk about the hostages i think he will also talk from my perspective about something whereby peace is the desired outcome and hopes that that conflict doesn't need to exist and obviously himself myself and millions of others we don't have to live there in those conditions and we don't have that history attached to it So we see what we see and we try and make a judgment on it without trying to upset too many people.

But I think in some ways it's a good thing to start a conversation to be able to try and express yourself more.

And if he ends up losing something because of it, then I think that's something that he's willing to accept because he mentions the fact that he's talking about his kids.

And that's when it becomes relatable to people that have had kids and people who are loved ones who've, you know, lost their lives from whichever side of any conflict that there is.

So yeah, I see what he's trying to say.

I understand the purpose of the messaging.

and I'm not going to live and die off the details because, in reality, the bigger point is the one I think that should sort of link most of us in this world as opposed to separate us.

Moving on, Nottingham Forest

obviously tried to move on from that to what is happening there to anything, really.

But they've written to UEFA to raise concern about Crystal Palace's plans partaking in the Europa League next season, arguing their Premier League rivals could be in breach of multi-club ownership rules.

That's what we check.

Nottingham Forest owner

and force.

Now, silent partner on the pitch, silent partner, etc.

The belief at Forrest is there is a conflict of interest because the palace shareholder John Texter also owns a stake in League One.

Sorry, also owns a stake, not in League One.

That would be a disappointing relegation for Leon, wouldn't it?

League club, Leon, who have provisionally qualified for the Europa League.

Palace qualified for Europe after winning the FA Cup.

Forrest qualified for the Conference League after finishing seventh in the most recent Premier League season.

Forrest declined to comment when contacted by The Guardian.

Football family at its finest here, John, isn't it?

I mean, the sort of the brazenness of, you know,

Forrest

and Olympia, you know, and Maranakis, you just think, what are you doing?

I just.

Yeah, I heard this at the start of this Palace thing coming to light

and

the Forrest were agitating for it.

And I thought, hmm, that's it.

But it seems to me that the whole point is that Forrest did this before a certain date and Palace didn't.

And that the idea is that

how could Palace have known when they were playing Millwall that they would eventually get into the Europa League?

You know, that was the final date when they could have put Texter's shares into

one of those, what's it called?

Blind trusts.

Blind trusts.

Thank you, Berry.

Yeah, yeah.

How much of football these days is sort of administrative wars?

You know, it is just bonkers, isn't it?

You know, I mean, like, lawyer ball has not yet reached its conclusion with the 115 charges.

And then we've got this nonsense as well.

It appears and hypocrisy in football as well.

It's open season on that.

That's everything.

And

if that is what Forests have done, it speaks very badly of the owners and their motifs.

It also, the other thing is that football needs to clean its act up a bit with all this ownership stuff.

Palace's

ownership situation has been a bit of a problem for a couple of seasons due to the lack of power that Textor has compared to Steve Parrish and the other ownership.

It's come to roost.

It's unfortunate.

And it would be awful to deny the fans and that team European football.

If I was a Palace fan, I would definitely think if it was a bigger club, they wouldn't be.

100%.

And I mean, whether I'm right or not, that is how I feel as a Palace fan.

And I just think it is a real shame that

any other club is trying to like snaffle their way higher up.

I'm not surprised, but just like, let them have their moment.

They won the FA Cup.

When you think of the bitterness of the rivalry that has grown between Brighton and Palace over somebody throwing a cup of coffee over Alan Mullery and him throwing some loose change he had in his pocket on the ground,

what on earth is the rivalry between Forrest and Palace going to be like for years to come

on the back of this?

Wilson's always on about Sunderland and Coventry from 1980 or something like that.

And

the mere mention of Coventry sets Wilson into this sort of spitting mess.

Isn't it also that if Palace were thrown out that it would be Brighton would get into the Conference League?

I mean you just like I don't know.

I mean that is that would be I mean simultaneously an outrage and funny.

But yeah, I mean I fingers crossed it will be fixed.

As my friend always says about that it's not a derby it's a rivalry about that one which I don't I don't want to get involved with that talking about things that I get involved with.

Anyway look thanks everybody it was a great conversation Nadum.

Thanks for your questions.

that makes my life much easier oh it's a pleasure no good you're welcome don't sit in this seat when i take a holiday because you i don't i think you might be good at it i don't want that not interested in that listen guys if to all the listeners if i don't appear on this podcast again it's because max has cancelled me remember that

thank you john

well i i hope i don't get cancelled but i can't say it won't happen well of course i think john and barry i don't want you to feel like i'm not concerned i don't feel threatened by either of them being there so i just say thanks i'll see you next time

Thank you, Barry.

I am very much one of life's sidekicks, Max.

I don't want to be cheery.

Don't worry.

You don't have to tell us.

We all know.

Bubble Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

We'll be back tomorrow.

This is The Guardian.