England’s grind, Nations League drama and Ange Postecoglou out at Spurs – Football Weekly

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

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Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

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Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Can we cut and paste the last pod we did on an England qualifier against a lowly ranked team playing a low block?

A hard watch, players out of position, Jordan Henderson shouting, booze at halftime, and three points.

It was like a comfortable old pair of slippers.

There's an important win for Wales ahead of a huge game in Belgium tonight in their quest to qualify for the World Cup in Canada, Mexico, and the increasingly welcoming United States.

There were calls for an emergency and pod on Friday.

We'll talk Posta Coglu and Thomas Frank in part two.

And then back to the Internationals, an excellent Nations League finale.

And such is the shame in losing to Norway that Spoletti and Italy part company.

All that, plus a bit of EFL, your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glen Denning, welcome.

Hi, Max.

From Not the Top 20, George Ellick.

Hello.

Hello, Max.

And good morning to Lyles Sivitson.

Hi, Max.

LT says, please don't spend 30 minutes talking about Andorra, England.

We won't do that.

I promise.

Joel says, if Ange takes the England job this week, would the World Cup final be in his second season?

And Pudzy says, when Barry said Andorra, England didn't matter, did he know the England players were listening to the pod and took his words to heart?

The seventh time these two have faced each other since 2001.

Perhaps the least impressive of all the England victories, which they've all been.

And I don't know, George, the agony of watching England against a team in a low block.

And I mean, I know it doesn't matter, and I know we won, and it's all fine, and like, I'm not that exercised by it either way.

It just

felt very familiar to me.

Yeah, it did.

And I think that's probably the source of most people's frustration is that there seemed to be a belief for some reason, despite what came before Garrett Southgate that the departure of Southgate and the appointment of Thomas Tuchel would see an end to these very boring experiences of watching England play football and that hasn't been the case it was pretty dire and it was a game that England completely dominated as you'd expect between both boxes I thought Andorra did quite well like they defended well in their low block they actually stepped out at times and it was frankly fairly embarrassing that England couldn't really play through that.

Thomas Tuchel came out after the game and pointed out that the XG was three, that we had 20 shots, which is all true.

You probably feel like on another day, if the finishing had been a bit better, it could have been a 3-0 win that maybe would have distanced England from some of the bad reviews off the back of the game.

But I can't shake the feeling, especially watching Spain, France, and Spain, Portugal, that England's relegation to Group B of the Nations League and therefore playing a lot of teams that we kind of would be expected to beat ever since the Euros final last summer has really damaged England's preparation.

Where it's Andorra, we're expected to win, we won.

It's very hard to impress.

It's a game where I imagine the players at the end of a season can't really get up for it.

Harry Kane alluded to it after the game.

He said, It's the end of a long season.

Like, I'm sure, had it been Spain in a Nations League semi-final, it would have been very different in terms of the application and the way that we set out to play.

But there's just a real apathy around everything.

You know, the World Cup isn't going to be won or lost in a game against Andorra in Barcelona.

But I think any hopes of a brave new era and a shift in style of player mentality, you know, Thomas Tuchel called out the players for the attitude after the game.

You know, this is no more Garrett Southgate defending his players.

He came out and said afterwards that he didn't like the attitude.

And we'll have to see how they react to that on Tuesday night in a game against Senegal where, you know, the Senegal in terms of individual quality certainly should provide way more of a threat than teams who played recently.

But it's another game that England are going to be expected to win with very little riding on it.

Yeah, Tuchel said after the game, he said, I was most worried in the last 20 minutes.

I did not like the attitude that we ended the game with.

I didn't like the lack of urgency.

It did not match the occasion.

It's still a World Cup qualifier.

I think we lack the seriousness and urgency that's needed in a game like that.

When asked sort of subsequently, if he should have been critical, because we're not used to hearing this, he said, what should I say?

That we were good.

The risk is only that you exaggerate and make it something that was not there.

Everything I said, I said already to the team.

There's no harm done.

We were not happy.

No single player will be happy with what we showed.

Why would the coach be?

And why would we be shy of saying so if we want to get better we first need to address that we were not happy with the end of both halves i mean i suppose at least barry the chat after the game is more refreshing you know that's that's something to cling to yeah there's a habit emerging in sort of political discourse where people try to convince us we haven't seen what we've clearly just seen.

And it would have been a rum do, I think, if Thomas Tuchel had come out and tried to convince everybody everybody that England had, in fact, despite the evidence of your own eyes over the past 90 minutes, been brilliant and laid down a marker to their fellow favourites and frontrunners ahead of the next World Cup.

England were dismal.

The players know they were dismal.

Thomas Tuchel came out and said, yes, they were dismal.

He didn't single any particular player out from opprobrium.

I don't think any of them covered themselves in glory apart from Nanny Madueke had a very good game, I thought.

I can't really think of anything more to add to the analysis of this game than what George has already said, because I think he covered it pretty perfectly.

But

I don't think even Garrett Southgate could have come out and said that was a good performance, because it quite clearly wasn't.

And it's not, you know, they're understandable, or it's understandable that England were poor.

The players are tired.

The opposition aren't up to much.

They got their goal and they more or less down twos.

There was a little bit of a scare towards the end when Andorra had a sort of scything attack by their standards through the middle, but that came to nothing.

Job done, three points.

It's fine.

It's fine.

Yeah, Lars.

I mean, I suppose the setup was interesting.

Mark says, is it now illegal for England to select a left back to play left back?

And there were quite a few.

You know, how many number tens can we shoehorn it?

Like, just some really nice, soothing, familiar problems that we've had.

Plus, also, Jordan Henderson playing, which was, you know, a good chance for people to get angry about that too.

Yeah, I mean, you say the chat felt different after, and that's true.

He is a little bit more blunt, Thomas Tuchel.

But you also, there was also a real sense of playing the hits with England as well.

I don't know if

it's a band that it's still the same band, but they've got like one new band member who does things in a slightly more interesting way.

It's a new lead singer.

Surely it's, you know, it's a different thing.

It's the Lincoln Park thing.

Yeah, it's the Lincoln Park thing.

The lead singer is different, but the songs are as annoying as ever.

No,

listen, I just think it's foolishness to try to read much of anything into this game, which I know is very literally what we're here for, but it's just,

it's a game against an international minnow, and it's an international minnow that's kind of just about good enough to make these games awkward.

Like,

they are actual footballers on this team.

They're not very good ones, but you have people who train regularly.

And if you set them up in like a very low block and they're reasonably well organized, even a very good team will struggle to play champagne football in that setting.

And I just think spending too much time analyzing it is almost a little bit daft.

Yeah, I mean, Curtis Jones playing at right back coming into midfield.

Maybe that is a vaguely interesting tactical choice.

I'm not entirely sure.

I think it is almost a little bit of a waste of our dare listeners' precious time to do much tactical analysis on this.

And I have to say, like, I'm generally in favor of like the existence of international minnows.

I like them in theory.

And

you never know.

Some of them turned out like in the last decades, the Faroe Islands, who've got like 50, 55,000 people, have actually beat both Greece and Turkey.

So you can never really write someone off, even if there's like five people who live there.

So I like it in theory, but every time I end up watching games like this, you just, it's just a monumental waste of everyone's time, isn't it?

So

I'm very much sort of caught between two stools on that.

And really,

I don't think there's much point to analyzing anything that happened on the pitch.

I suppose the interesting thing, George, is

the really hard thing for Thomas Tuchel, whoever manages England, and I suppose other international countries manage this somehow, is

you have so many games against teams who play like this.

And then in the game that really matters, you lose to a team who don't play like this, but you've had absolutely no practice of playing against teams who play like that in games that actually matter.

Yeah, I mean, exactly.

But that kind of goes back to my point a second ago in talking about the opposition, because you say that England and other teams have that too.

It's not necessarily the case.

Like, if you look at Spain's fixtures since last year's final, they played Serbia, Switzerland, Denmark twice, Serbia twice, Netherlands, Portugal, France.

Like,

they played decent sides.

The best team that we've played since that was Greece, and we lost one of those two games.

You know, we are paying the price for a really shambolic Nations League campaign a couple of years ago.

And obviously, in the next Nations League cycle, we'll be back in the A-League, and we'll have fewer games against the likes of Andorra, albeit still some.

But I think that's a good point that Lars makes.

You know, I'm not here to make excuses for anybody, but the days of Andorra being

like a team that was embarrassing to beat 3-0, as was the case in the famous David Nugent game, and also great to see a former Leicester striker scoring from one yard in in Saturday's game.

A bit of football heritage there too.

But, you know, that's changed.

Like they are a better side now.

And if you look at Spain's 5-0 win over Andorra,

the stats were like exactly the same.

20 shots, 10 on target.

Spain just finished theirs off more effectively.

And

Ika Alvarez, the Andorra keeper, was pretty good in the game.

But again, he made a regulation save after, I think, 28 minutes and did the kind of Jordan Pickford scream, which shows you, you know, this is a huge game for Andorra in order to try try and, you know, for them, keeping England to a 1-0 defeat is a massive achievement.

So, yeah, I agree with Lars.

There's no point.

We see, as is always the case, like massive reactive stuff off the back of these

results.

And, you know, I've seen on social media a lot of people saying that Tuchel's a clown and that it's his fault and all that stuff.

And it just doesn't really help anybody.

It's...

frustrating, a little bit embarrassing, but on the whole irrelevant.

Harry Kane had more work to do than David Nugent.

I'd just like to point out.

I mean, not a whole lot more, but just a little bit more work.

Yes, Lars.

Lars, I hope you're not going to do any more analysis on the game, having said it's pointless to analyze the game, but no,

let's just go back to analyzing the post-game chat.

I mean, that was more fascinating, wasn't it?

The Henderson thing is weird.

Like, I'm just, it just is.

Like, and he was asked why Henderson was in there, and he replied, why not?

That's not a valid answer.

And I saw some quotes.

He talked about Henderson about how,

and this is an exact quote here.

If we have a training exercise with different groups and you have a group with Jordan, you can turn your back.

You don't need to watch.

He will take care of the standards in the group and make sure.

But that's like, you're describing a coach, Thomas.

Like, this is what you have a coaching staff for, I think.

I don't think you necessarily need to, like, surely that's what they're supposed to do.

You don't need to play.

You can have a different midfielder to do all that stuff.

So I still, again, there's no point getting too angry about it, but it is weird.

Let's just acknowledge that it is slightly odd.

Actually, on henderson i mean i don't know what you think barry but it does feel like and once again it is playing the hits but holding midfielder is a it's a problem like if if if we are not going to win the world cup if jordan henderson is tracing vitinha right or you know like like that is that is an issue so i mean the point would be and cars he tried angel gomez and and maybe he's not the right guy i don't know but like

they should be trying someone that isn't jordan henderson in holding midfield If England are playing Portugal in the World Cup, Jordan Henderson won't be in the side.

Thomas Tuchel has decided he wants him in the squad.

He presumably has to justify his inclusion in the squad by

giving him some minutes and when better than a game against Andorra when he

is more than capable of playing quite well.

I'm not sure why he's so hell-bent on having him in the squad.

Maybe it's because he can help with the Rondos in training.

I honestly don't know.

I don't think it matters whether he's in the squad or not.

I said that on Thursday.

Yeah, I don't think he will be featuring in the business end of a World Cup finals if England happened to be in them.

I also have a feeling that Thomas Tuchel won't be in charge of England when the World Cup comes around, but that's another

theory for another day.

Good lord.

Based on what?

Just a feeling.

Sacked after a defeat against Wales in October.

George, you wanted to come in?

Well, yeah, I mean, this kind of links into more general football news, but and I'd be interested to know what Barry thinks to this.

But Joe Bellingham is seemingly imminently going to be moving to Dortmund, and he's someone who played quite a lot of his football up front or in a more advanced midfield position.

My hunch is that he will end up being a deep-lying, almost holding the field player.

I don't know if he has the attacking capabilities at elite level, but he's very, very good at breaking up play and very tidy on the ball.

And it wouldn't shock me if he ends up being a candidate to be that holding mid-field player.

Now he'll be playing top-level football for

a massive club that Tuchel obviously knows very well.

Yeah, I mean, Joel Bellingham doesn't have big game experience.

He was brilliant at Wembley for Sunderland in the play-off final.

I mean, can Declan Rice or Morgan Gibbs White not play in that role if required?

But it does take away from what Rice is there to what he's really good at.

That's what we've established.

Well, Declan Rice came on on Saturday, and I was keeping an eye on him.

And it was just several sideways passes, a couple of backwards passes, and then he gave the ball away once.

Sure, sure, but if we've seen how brilliant he's been for Arsenal, it is not holding midfield.

It's galloping forward.

It's, you know, someone.

He's better when Party is there behind him and when he hasn't been.

But I'm saying he can play that role if required.

Yeah, but isn't the point is you lose what's good about him.

Like, then the whole point is you want to play somebody who actually is good at that job and frees up him and Jude Bellingham to play high at last.

Well,

my concern with him is that he's becoming the sort of rampaging number eight, sort of

classic trope of English football, the sort of the midfield box-to-box guy.

But what we often find in international tournament is that those guys are trying to rampage into a space that doesn't exist.

Teams are often quite well organized, and they sit back and you're just kind of rampaging straight into the center half or something.

Like the rampaging is inefficient.

I just wanted to like end it because Barry said he doesn't understand the Henderson thing either.

And I just thought Tuchel's answer was great.

He was asked if the regular questions about Henderson are a little bit annoying.

And he said, I can understand it.

But once you meet Jordan and once you see Jordan and once you speak to Jordan, it's such an obvious choice.

So maybe the answer here is that every England fan needs to meet Jordan Henderson.

They could set up some kind of booth and just in an international break, they can form an orderly queue and absolutely everyone can just have a quick word with Jordan and then the questions would subside.

I mean, maybe this is the solution here.

Yeah, I just wanted to do some of the younger players, because he's so good around the place, you know, and he, you know, everywhere, he makes everyone wear the right shirt and, you know, turn up on time.

There must be some younger players.

Like, God, he's a bit busy, isn't he?

Didn't someone say that before?

Oh, he's great to have around the place.

And Roy Keane was particularly scared.

Why does he do character?

Let's talk about Wales.

They beat Lichtenstein 3-0.

Very comfortable game.

Extending their unbeaten run under Craig Bellamy.

Joe Roden, Harry Wilson, Kiefer Moore got the goals.

Nico Williams was stretched off with an ankle injury, but probably not as bad as it looked.

They take on Belgium tonight in Brussels.

And after Belgium drew with North Macedonia, George, this is such a massive game.

I feel if they can avoid defeat to Belgium in these two games,

then

they have the best chance of winning this group.

Yeah, I mean, if they can somehow win in Brussels tonight, then they'll be in a really dominant position.

The way that the games have fallen mean that Belgium have only played that one game against North Macedonia.

So they come into the game on seven points from three from three games, six points clear of Belgium.

And if they can maintain that or grow that gap, they'll be in a really dominant position.

So it's a big game for them and I'm sure they'll go into it with Belgium not in a great state themselves, fancying their chances.

Craig Bellamy gave an unbelievable press conference.

I don't know if you've seen it, where he's asked about his run and when the unbeaten run is going to come to an end.

And he gives like an existential answer and effectively says, we're only here for a short amount of time, so you've got to enjoy the good and the bad.

He wasn't quite clear whether he meant that

a manager's life isn't particularly long in a job or just life itself.

I think the latter.

But either way, he's just such a different figure to the player that we obviously saw, who was a bit of a hothead and quite troubled.

And now, you know, even seeing him smile is kind of quite a weird thing to see.

But he's doing a brilliant job there, and he's using his squad incredibly well, playing an exciting, kind of energetic brand of football.

And yeah, I'm sure they'll fancy their chances against Belgium.

You fancy them Baz?

I do yeah.

Belgium are not in a good run for him as George says.

They've kept one clean sheet in the last 10 games.

They've only won one of their last eight.

Now they are playing pretty high quality opposition.

They've lost against France twice, Italy at home.

They lost against Israel and Ukraine.

And Wales are decent away from home.

They've drawn five and won one of their past seven away.

I give them a very good chance of winning.

I don't think they'll lose, and that would be brilliant.

A draw would be brilliant for Wales.

I know Ellis is going.

I'm looking forward to his voice note

if they do get a result.

But I just think

Bellamy will have them primed, ready to go.

They will be seriously up for this.

I know Belgium have some tremendous players, but I do fancy Wales.

And Belgium actually pretty lucky to get a draw against North Macedonia, right?

I thought, Lars.

Yeah, it wasn't a great performance.

And they're one of those teams that they have some great names, but there's also some gaps in that squad.

Like, look at the Wales game, I definitely think if we get a Kiefer Moore versus Vout Fast matchup,

I'd like to see that.

I think that's...

Yeah, no, I think Wales absolutely do have a chance.

I think

Rudy Garcia, Belgian manager, I'm not like fully sold on that concept.

And yeah, absolutely.

It could be a good time to play them.

No quartoine goal either because

he's had a strop and doesn't want to play for them.

So yeah, why not?

Interesting post on Blue Sky from our mate Tarek Panja saying hard to think of a World Cup host in modern times with an anti-foreigner image as the United States appears to have right now.

Pictures of folks being lifted off the streets, events in Los Angeles and cases of people misidentified, handcuffed and detained by immigration officials abound.

I mean, a lot of people have messaged us saying, you know, are you going to focus on the US as much as you did on Qatar?

I suppose there is a point that there are lots of places to get your political news about the United States.

That is not the case for Qatar, but we will definitely keep reporting on it.

Well, what ICE are doing over there is disgraceful.

Well, I agree.

And you see these guys going around with their faces covered, sunglasses on, dressed up like to the nines in combat gear, just dragging people off the streets.

It's unbelievable.

And also, as worrying as those sort of repressive domestic issues are there is also the the issue of them whole banning people from countries just wholesale including countries that have qualified for the world cup and i think i mean it's it's probably tricky for fifa to get involved with how a country decides to police their own citizens that's that's kind of a separate thing but i I do think FIFA should be quite clear.

Like, if you are hosting a World Cup, but the fans of nations who have qualified cannot go there because they've been banned en masse, you cannot host a World Cup.

Like, I think that should be a very basic tenet of hosting a World Cup, is that fans of the nations who have qualified have to be allowed to attend.

And we don't know yet if there will be an exemption for fans with these travel bans that have been put in place.

For, for instance, Iran,

who will be at the World Cup.

I really think if FIFA were in any way fit for purpose, they would put their foot down on this and say, you very literally cannot host a World Cup if you're not allowing fans from the qualified nations in.

Yeah, I completely agree.

We will definitely do more on that.

That'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll do

the sacking of Ange Posta Coglu.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game, Day Scratches from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Week.

Clee Gildie says, how long are you in mourning for, Max?

Is it full-on or just black armband?

Yes, Ange Postakoglu sacked as Spurs manager on Friday afternoon, 16 days after winning the Europa League, Tottenham's first European trophy in 41 years.

Seemingly a matter of time before Brentford's Thomas Frank takes the job.

May I first just say, boo!

Even though I'm just a bit sad about it, I don't necessarily think it's the wrong decision.

I think it's probably great for Ange.

I think Spurs are probably screwed either way because

the chance of them winning a trophy next year is hard.

If they start the season badly with Ange, everyone says you should have sacked him.

If they start the season badly with Thomas Frank, they say you should have kept Ange and Spurs are Spurs, so they'll probably start the season badly anyway.

Well, Thomas Frank in his two previous managerial jobs has also started very badly.

He didn't win any of his first eight with Bronby or maybe first ten and didn't start well with Brentford either.

It took him a while to get a win on the board.

But I'm sure Tottenham fans will be very patient.

Yeah, and good news for people who get annoyed with us and we're constantly leading the pod with Spurs when they're ate without a win at the start of next season.

Lars, you're a Spurs man.

What's your take on it all?

Well,

I will acknowledge that I think I am out of touch with the fandom on this because I think it's the right decision.

I think it was the only decision.

And I just think

it comes down to that number

that they presented in the

club statement that was 78 points in the last 66 games, was it?

So that's a season of a half of just garbage, like being lower mid-table.

It's not just a case of Spurs' league form got bad because they were prioritizing the Europa League or because they had a lot of injuries during the winter.

It's a season and a half of just not being good enough.

And I just, it's,

and it really, if you're in charge of the team that has the sort of fifth, sixth, highest payroll in the Premier League and you lose 22 games and finish 17th, you're very unlikely to be in charge of that team the season, the next season.

It's just kind of how that goes.

And let's just flip this on his head and say, okay, this has been very bad now for 18 months, but we have won the Europa League, mostly by beating teams that have half of our wage bill and less than that.

But we won that.

And now the vibes are good.

And the players quite like him and the fans quite like him.

So we're going to continue with that.

You would still have had to sit down with him and just have a chat and just say, you know, the thing you've been trying to do on the pitch for the last two years?

Stop that.

It's not working.

So you're going to continue, but you have to do things completely differently.

And I don't think that would have worked very well for him either.

Because it has been demonstrated quite clearly that the way he wants to coach and the way he wants the team to play is not working in the Premier League.

He's not able to make it work.

So you can continue with it not working, or you could demand that he changes his style, which I don't think he'd respond very kindly to.

So I just think any kind of scenario of him continuing would have been very bad as well.

I think the only decision, and I think it had to be made.

Yeah, no, I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I suppose, I mean, I think in terms of And

I still think he's sort of what he has managed to achieve in winning that from where he began his life and where he began his career is absolutely extraordinary you know to to arrive in Australia from Greece five years old with family with nothing you know obviously it's hard to become a Premier League manager if you're really good footballer for Barcelona right and you're Pep Guardiola but but like the systems in place or if you're in Germany and you know and Jürgen Klopp right the the coaching structure there to actually basically to be learning your trade in the backwaters of football, like in South Melbourne whenever he was doing it, to get to where he's got to is amazing.

But I don't, I don't disagree that, I think it's a difficult decision for Tottenham.

I don't think they've made the the wrong one.

I'm just sad that it didn't work out because I like him.

How has the decision gone down in Australia, Max?

Yeah, I think, you know, there's a lot of look at everything he's won and look at everything Thomas Frank has won, which is not a lot, and going, you know, obviously this is a total disaster.

And like, he's totally loved here because of what he's achieved at a time when there are no really good male footballers playing, right?

So you obviously have Sam Kerr, right?

And the Matildas are good, but the Soccaroos have got to the World Cup, basically, but they don't have any superstars.

And so he sort of is the absolute beacon of football in Australia and men's game, certainly.

And yeah, and he's lovable.

And I guess, George, Thomas Frank is an appointment.

before you even consider like, you know, his coaching ability, I think is good because he is also, he's very different to Ange, but he's also lovable.

He is someone that I think if they'd bought someone in who sort of wasn't fun, I know this sounds silly, but like, and results dictate everything, but I can see fans quite quickly warming to Frank if the results aren't absolutely terrible.

Yeah, I mean, he's incredibly honest, I think is one thing to say about Thomas Frank.

Like he, he wears, you know, he's he's good in the media.

He speaks

without clichés and he's honest with fans and he assesses games in a way that's very coherent and clear.

And crucially I think for a team like Spurs who are going to have to now you know transition from being a team that finished 17th to playing this very extreme style of football albeit although you know obviously if you look at the blueprint for the way that Spurs won the Europa League it wasn't ange ball it was you know a resolute low block and maybe there was a development of postcoglu as a coach by him actually um having had one season of like of i'm not going to change the way i play even if we're against even if we're down to nine men to actually changing that in order to get over the line but then frankly got someone who absolutely isn't wedded to an ideology at all.

If you look at his Brentford team over the last near enough a decade, they've been possession-based at times.

They came up from the championship and then were a low-block team for a couple of years as they looked to establish themselves in the Premier League.

In the last couple of seasons, they've developed into a high-pressing team who attack and transition.

And that, I think, having a mixed style, not having to play a certain way, will suit Spurs, who in games against some of the poorer teams in the league should look to dominate possession and should look to dominate the ball.

But we'll have games against the likes of Liverpool and City where it probably will suit them to be able to drop in and be resolute and be able to attack in a different way.

My only concern is,

you know, if I was making decisions, which I'm sure I'll never be doing, but in terms of hiring managers, I think hiring out of a club like Brentford is really risky because Thomas Frank is obviously very good at his job, but he is one cog in an unbelievably well-run club.

Like there will be, in terms of recruitment and coaching staff and everything across the board at Brentford, There's no denying that Brentford is a way better run club than most clubs in the country, most clubs in the Premier League and definitely Tottenham in that regard.

And all you're doing is taking one cog out of that club and plugging it in and hoping that that's going to be enough.

So that's a big concern to me.

In terms of the Postagogny sacking,

I think whenever you make decisions on managers, you should probably ask how much did injuries impact things.

And in his case, I completely agree with what Lars is saying about the long period of time, but this season, there's no doubt that he he was massively curtailed in terms of what he could do because of injuries.

But having said that, if you look at Manchester United last season and the fact that they won a final and won a trophy, and that probably meant that they stuck with Eric Tenag when they shouldn't have done, and the absolute mess that that caused for them, where his position became untenable very early on in this season when nothing changed, and they had to recruit a manager to come in midway through the season, which was a disaster, I wouldn't be surprised if the decision makers at Spurs looked at that and thought, you know what, let's not find ourselves in that position and let's give the new man a full summer to you know to get his teeth into the job and start the rebuild now.

I like the frank thing because it confirms to one of my favorite theories, which is my sort of ex-girlfriend theory of managerial appointments, which I realize now, saying it out loud, it doesn't need to be ex-girlfriend.

I think this is gender neutral.

I think it could be ex-boyfriend as well.

It's just I found in my life with my friends and acquaintances, whenever someone has had like a union that has ended very badly, the next incumbent, the next romantic, whatever you feel the last one lacked and didn't have, what was wrong with the last one, the next one's going to have a lot of that.

Like, that's all you people always overcorrect, right?

So, we're coming out of this Anish Postakoglu thing where he was seen as being too dogmatic, even though, of course, he did adjust in the Europa League in the end.

They're now seemingly moving from that to Frank, who is famous for being super flexible and having paid quite possession-heavy football when they got promoted, but then changing and going more directly.

Like, you know, he's a guy who doesn't really have a philosophy.

So, you're going from one one extreme to the other, which is very funny because that always seems to happen.

I'm kind of worried about, I'm not worried, that's a strong word, but you're kind of, you're betting on him being able to make the step up in terms of managing different personalities as well, because he hasn't been in this kind of setting.

There is more pressure.

There are more difficult characters.

You know, the higher you get up the talent ladder, the more challenging characters tend to be.

And also, like, If you're at Brentford and you lose a few games, no one cares.

I mean, few people even notice.

Whereas, of course, at Tottenham, if you lose a few games in particular, given the manner of, given how popular the predecessor was,

there's going to be an amount of pressure and stuff around that that I think Frank won't necessarily have experienced before.

That doesn't mean he can't deal with it, but you're betting on something that has not been demonstrated, put it that way.

I mean, I don't know how much you read into Instagram posts from players, but it seems like they all did love at, you know, they loved Ange.

I can't remember who made the point.

Maybe it was you, Lars.

You know, it would have been good if they'd shown that love for him by being good in the Premier League, yeah.

But they still not losing 22 games would have been really good, like maybe lose 21 games the first start, see how that goes.

Yeah, yeah, you're right.

I know, look, I think Ange still goes down as a legend for Tottenham in this sort of amazing two years, and like the joy that he gave so many Tottenham fans, not just who were in Bill Bauer or at the Tottenham Husband Stadium, but like the montage of just like every city on earth, basically, with Tottenham fans, you know, who I didn't know existed, just like going just sort of bursting into tears i find that very moving when i when i watch that what do you think baz do you think thomas frank will be it's hard to judge what does successful mean his first game will be psg i mean this is presuming he gets takes the job right which obviously we imagine is going to happen is it psg in the super cup that the premier starts

that's a lot that's a low block if you ask me uh good luck with that one thomas i think it's a good appointment i don't think you can overstate what a good job frank has done at Brentford, who have the 19th, the second lowest wage bill in the Premier League.

So, you know, on those grounds, they should be very much in the relegation mix rather than trying to get into the top ten.

He

seems a real affable guy, not that that particularly matters.

I love the way he talks after games.

He's not one for getting stuck into referees or anything.

He should be a success, but he's going into the Spurs meat grinder, which has

made mince meat of better men than him or better managers than him.

He looks so young and healthy.

Just imagine in six months.

You know, it's just like when someone becomes the Prime Minister, he'll be just completely grey.

He'll look like Sirian McKellen, won't he?

George,

Kieran McKenna, the favourite for the Brentford job.

Good idea?

Or who else would you throw into the mix?

I think he is the obvious candidate.

He seemingly had his kind of pick of jobs last summer with Brighton very much being linked.

Of course, Brighton and Brentford kind of go hand in hand given the background of their owners.

And

you know, if Brighton have identified him as a good head coach, it probably is a good to think that Brentford probably will as well.

But Chelsea United also seemingly interested too.

He's very good.

He's also very similar, I would say, in terms of that mixed style in League One when he first came in.

Ibbswitch dominated the ball.

And then when they came up and they went up straight away again, they they were happy out of possession, but it was a really aggressive press.

It was their kind of main calling card in terms of style of play.

And, you know, I know some people see relegation and think, well, you've got to be terrible then, and write managers off as soon as they go down.

But, you know, the task of Ipswich, who, as I say, just two years before were a League One side, to try and stay in the Premier League, I think they actually

made a pretty good fist of it

in fairness.

And yeah, I mean, in terms of he's the obvious candidate, he's the one that I'm sure Brentford will be going after.

And it's probably just a case of whether or not Ipswich can persuade him to stay and try and take them up again.

Just one more on Thomas Frank.

And I think it was the mirror saying, you know, the staggering amount that Tottenham have to pay to get Thomas Frank last.

And it's £10 million.

And it does seem, that does seem like a lot for a manager, but it seems ridiculous that you couldn't buy a player that would get near a Premier League team, really, unless you were very, had very shrewd recruitment, unless you were Brentford.

You know, to have to spend that much money when, you know,

a half-decent fullback is 40 million.

Like, it's interesting that the way football has evolved, that that seem is meant to seem like a lot of money.

Yeah, though, though, interestingly, I feel like we've moved in the direction of clubs being more willing to pay those sort of numbers for managers than they were five, five, ten years ago, because people understand, like,

it may seem like a lot of money.

But if you look at Tottenham squad now, the value of the players has been decimated, right?

If you were trying to sell off some of these guys in the summer, you wouldn't get a lot of money from them because people have short memories and you've had a bad season.

Whereas, if you bring in a new coach, they rise up the table, finish somewhere in the top half, and suddenly all your assets look much more valuable again.

So, like, it creates having a coach who does well with the team creates a lot of value, both in terms of success, but also in terms of like just basic perception of the players and their worth.

So, I don't, not something to freak out too much about, really.

No, no, I certainly wasn't freaking out.

I don't feel like I other people are freaking out.

No, you're right.

Um, before we end part two, very sad to report the death of Uriah Rennie, the Premier League's first black referee who's passed away at 65.

He officiated over 300 top flight matches between 97 and 2008, working his way up the Football League, of course, becoming a trailblazer in English football.

He was born in Jamaica, raised in Sheffield.

He served as honorary president of Hallam FC, was deeply respected across the game.

Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday both sent condolences amongst, you know, pretty much the whole of football.

He was open in recent years about his battle with a rare, inoperable neurological

Our thoughts are with his family and friends, and we'll be back in a second.

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Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

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Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So the Nations League.

Then, after the last pod, Spain beat France 5-4 in just an amazing semifinal.

And then the final last night finished 2-2 between Spain and Portugal.

Portugal winning on penalties, Murata missing the penalty, Ronaldo crying, all the things you'd expect.

Thomas saying, should Spain have got some input from their narrative consultant before bringing Murata on to take a penalty?

Ronaldo, his goal was his 138th career goal in his 221st outing for Portugal, his 34th career trophy.

You know, heartwarming, Barry, to see his tears at the end of the game.

Yeah, I mean, it clearly meant a lot to him.

I did enjoy during the penalty shootout, he had been taken off and he was very performatively not looking at the penalties as they were taken while not quite so performatively checking to make sure that the cameras were on him as he performatively didn't watch them being taken.

But no, it meant a lot to him.

He scored.

Some will say that makes a mockery of suggestions that he shouldn't be in the team.

I don't think he should be in the team.

I guess we'll find out at the World Cup, which he seems hell-bent on participating in, whether I'm right or not, because one goal in the Nations League semifinal and then final doesn't cancel out the fact that he played almost every minute of every game in the Euros last season, didn't score, and was a passenger in the Portuguese team.

But yeah, this clearly meant a lot to him.

I think the man of the match in this game was Nuno Mendez, who really did a number on Lamin Yamal, didn't give him an inch, and was excellent going forward as well, and scored a fine goal.

And if you look at the performances of these, I think the better team won in the end on penalties, but if you compare the performances of these teams and France, and then go back to England andora, it's like, ooh, ooh, boy.

Actually, that Nuno Mendez finish,

you know, it obviously is not the same level, but it reminded me a bit, it was a bit Carlos Alberta, like the way he struck the ball and it's sort of low flight little bounce so yeah I absolutely love that finish Lars what did you make of it

I really enjoyed this game actually which I wasn't necessarily expecting to and I think

whether the Nations League has been a success or not is still I think open for discussion but at least I think the players care when we get to this point I think they were just given the fact that they've all played very very very long seasons the the effort that was put in and the amount of like enthusiasm and energy that was there even in extra time i thought was remarkable and it was a testament to the fact that at least the players care about this.

I thought it was a game that had a lot of things.

You know,

Spain were very much the better team in the first half

and were in total control, really, until the equalizer from Ronaldo, which came kind of out of nothing.

And that seemed to rattle them a little bit.

And Portugal came into it.

And then, in the end, when Ronaldo had to go off injured, and you got Ramoson, I thought Portugal in the first half of extra time were a lot stronger.

And it's fascinating with Ronaldo because it is a trade-off, right?

Because he's still,

the goal is the case case in point of what he still does well, which is that his movements in the box are very clever.

And when he gets that chance, you will back him to score it.

But the trade-off is if you're starting with him, like you can't play with any kind of press because you have a 40-year-old guy who just hangs around when the team doesn't have the ball.

So you have to play quite deep.

You have to play on the counter.

But even though you are playing on the counter, you can't really hit him with direct balls because his holdup play isn't very good and he's not very fast.

So it really puts a huge limitations on what you can do.

But the trade-off is, yeah, when he gets gets that one chance he he is more than likely going to score it and it's eight goals in the last nine for portugal against decent opposition so it's a tricky one like i will i will maintain now well i will ride this donkey until it keels over dead that portugal would be a better football team if they played a striker who actually runs around a bit but it's also hard to argue like i said eight goals in the last nine it's hard to argue with that so uh the the the kid the problem the problem is as barry said when you got to the international tournament last time he was a massive liability and didn't score and made the team palpably worse.

So we'll see if that happens again this time.

And it wasn't only lost.

It wasn't only last year as well.

We've seen him stink out, was it three major tournaments in a row?

I think

as an England fan and any Spain fans or France fans or Brazil, Argentina, I think...

Portugal winning the Nations League and Cristiano Ronaldo scoring in the final is like the best thing that could have possibly happened because it just validates his place in the team.

So you're stuck with him now.

You've got no chance of getting rid of him.

There's There's no way.

So, yeah, I'm pretty happy to see him crying.

And I'm happy to see everyone saying, everyone says he's finished.

Look at this.

Because as Lars says, yeah, sure, he scored a goal.

But

if there was another player on the pitch for the 90 minutes, who knows how much better their performance could have been and how much more cohesive their football would be.

So, yeah,

I'm fine with it.

And I think we're also seeing kind of a...

You know, the Nations League hasn't been a massive success to start with.

It's been seven years now since it was implemented.

And maybe it's a case that players like Mendez, who's, I think he's 22 and Yamal, who's eight or whatever, you know, these guys, you know, they've grown up with it being in existence and they care because it's a it's a tournament that has some kind of longevity for them.

Um, and I think it'll be a good thing if you know, to have a it's never going to be a major tournament, it's never going to replace the summer tournament, but you know, high-class competitive football between you know, some of the better teams can only be a good thing.

And I think the week of football we've just had, like from a neutral perspective, ignoring England, international breaks are normally seen as not having the quality that people desire.

But if you're in neutral watching these games over the last week or so, you've been entertained and seen great games and individuals playing well.

So,

yeah, I think we're seeing the tournament grow.

I would also interject, maybe we'll get there, but like

international, I mean, the reason the Nations League works, I think, is because the bigger nations are paired with other strong nations, so you get more meaningful games against good opponents as opposed to qualifiers against very weak teams.

But I am here as a representative of a much smaller nation to remind you, it is a massive privilege to have this problem that you keep getting paired with terrible teams and the qualifiers like the whole system is rigged to make it easier for the big teams to make sure none of you screw up so badly that you don't get to a tournament like the whole system is rigged in your favor so on behalf of the smaller teams we would like for you to please not complain about that like if you want to if you want to take like uh italy out of our group norway i actually they were really bad but if you want to take the big this give us andorra any day man we're happy with those games like for for for a lot of other, for people who support other nations,

these qualifiers are actually exciting because for us, qualifying is hard, partially because the system is massively rigged in favor of the big countries.

Yeah, just on that Portugal, I wonder if any of the players are like, oh, could we just get rid of him?

Because I bet, you know, is there a WhatsApp group without him?

Because it's not just they could play a high press.

They've got...

an amazing squad of players.

Like they've got a squad that could play such an expansive football

style of football and they can't.

And they must be just like, oh, could we just, ah, is he available again?

Then WhatsApp goes, yeah, in for next week.

You know, oh, bugger.

Um, France beat Germany 2-0 in the other game.

Did feel like we just sort of squinted slightly or not even, just if you sort of didn't think it was the Nations League.

It did feel like, you know, like a quarter-final of a World Cup, you know, really sunny.

Oh, they've got the afternoon game.

And it was a pretty close game until France scored, I thought.

Germany had a lot of chances.

And Bappé scored a nice goal.

At least they scored late on to give the French victory in the third-place playoff.

The home nations then, Scotland lost 3-1 to Iceland, Northern Ireland lost 2-1 to Denmark and Ireland, due with Senegal.

Baz, where do you want to begin with all of that?

Well, the Scotland game was quite interesting because I flagged up on Thursday that goalkeeping might be an issue for them and oh boy was it an issue for them.

So Craig Gordon, their first choice keeper, who's 42, he was injured.

So Angus Gunn, who's without a club,

started.

He had to go off after six minutes with an injury.

Their second choice, Robbie, or well, now we're down to third choice.

Robbie McCrory had injured himself in the warm-up.

The next two in the pecking order, Liam Kelly and Xander Clark, were both injured, which meant that Kieran Slicker, Ipswich Town Reserve keeper who had played nine minutes of football this season, he got

in to make his debut after six minutes.

I think with his second touch of the ball, he gave it away to an Iceland player who set up Eider Gajohnson's son who scored a fine goal, brilliant strike.

Kieran Slicker went to pieces after that and he was culpable for the second and third goals as well, one of which was the second one, an absolute comedy of errors from an Iceland corner.

I think about four different Scotland players and no Iceland players touched it before it trundled over the line.

But it was a nightmare debut for Kieran Slicker.

Steve Clark came out afterwards and was quite sympathetic,

saying, look, he wasn't ready for this.

And

it was hard because it was at Hamden and the crowd were on his back towards the end.

And he just looked so crestfallen.

I hope he can bounce back from this.

Republic of Ireland

played quite well against Senegal.

It was more or less a Senegal second string team and when they brought the big guns on in the second half half, when they were a goal down,

the game visibly turned in their favour.

And they got an equaliser through Ishmila Sarr, who bundled one over the line.

And Northern Ireland, I'm afraid, I did not see.

Yeah, Northern Ireland were in Copenhagen for a friendly against Denmark.

They did take the lead, but

they lost 2-1.

Christian Erickson with the winning goal for the Danes.

Joachim says, how will Norway fail to qualify this time?

Yeah, you beat Italy 3-0.

You've made Spoletti leave his job, and you scored some wonderful goals.

The first half, you battered them.

Yeah, no, the first half is...

I mean, really, there's been a discussion in Norway about the biggest since.

I really do think this is the biggest sort of moment for the Norwegian national team since 1998 when we beat Brazil in the World Cup.

I know we were at Euro 2000 and we had a jammy win against Spain in that tournament.

But just really trouncing what is an ailing A-list nation, but it is an A-list nation all the same.

It was incredible.

And I'm so happy for the players because over the last two qualifying campaigns, I don't think they've been terrible, but they've kind of shot themselves in the foot or early doors in those campaigns and ended up really struggling to get there.

And they've had this tendency of kind of failing in the bigger games against the bigger nations.

But I just thought they looked so...

honest here very assertive very confident um and and they were they were tremendous norway have this sort of ongoing issue of how how do you fit the two big men into a formation that makes any kind of sense because you have aling holland and you have alexander serlos who are both you know six foot four strikers and they're just very few tactics that calls for that in in the year of our lord 2025 uh so so how do you make that work and and and in this game it was it was alex solot really sacrificing himself with the team i thought

playing kind of like a left like a right midfielder out of possession but also trying to get up into the box in possession and he had to do a lot of hard work again after a long club season and i thought he was tremendous antonio Nusa's second goal for Norway is worth looking up.

That was absolutely wonderful and he is a super exciting winger type guy.

And the midfield which I mean you got Nusa Hall and Alex Solot and Martin Eligo which does leave Sanda Baragen and Motten Torsby having to do an awful lot of legwork to compensate.

But they did all that legwork and it was fine.

So it was really a very tremendous performance

by a team that's, you know, was starting to get a reputation as nearly men.

There's been a pretty considerable amount of disgruntlement with the coach Stolla Solbachen.

I think quite a lot of Norway fans would have liked to see him leave his job before now.

But yeah, so vindication for him and vindication for the players.

And we're in a very, very good position in the group now.

Spoleti said, last night we were together with the president.

He told me I'll be relieved of my position as coach of the national team.

I had no intention of giving up.

I'd have preferred to stay in my place and continue to do my job.

I'll be there tomorrow evening against Moldova.

Then we'll resolve the contract.

George, a few questions for you.

Alex says, not so much a question as a plea, actually.

Can George please shed some light on the situation at Sheffield Wednesday?

Our most promising manager in decade is dying to leave.

Can't blame him.

We're selling our most promising Academy talent just to pay the staff's wages until August.

What's going on?

Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty desperate situation.

You know, it's been bubbling away for a long time that this might happen with Sheffield Wednesday under Dejan Chanceri, their owner.

Staff haven't been paid.

Danny Reyard has been outspoken in terms of, you know, his feeling and seemingly relationship with the owner broke down over the course of of the season with a pretty explosive kind of fans forum outburst from Chancery that coincided with a dip in form.

But, like, this is an issue that's bigger than football, really.

Wednesday fans starting to be really concerned about the kind of very existence of their club and

have to be careful what we say about Chancery and not overstep a legal line, I guess.

But I think we can absolutely say that the sooner that any action can be taken to try and ensure that Chancery has to sell the club and Chef Wednesday can find new owners is going to be essential because almost on a daily basis now the situation is getting worse and worse.

Did that happen with Reading?

Like did somebody force Dai Young to sell the club or did eventually just do it?

He was disqualified.

I mean it's interesting with the because

the EFL shoulder or the finger is pointed at the EFL a lot for allowing the likes of Dai Young to become owner of Reading and Dejan Chancery to be owner of Sheffield Wednesday.

But what I would say in response to that is that there's been quite a big shift at the EFL within the last 10 years and the EFL that existed at that time in order to allow those people to buy the clubs.

And the FL now are very different in terms of the people in charge and the way that they operate.

But it's very hard once somebody owns a club and owns a business, it's very hard to oust them.

You know, the EFL, as I say, disqualified Dai Young from being a club owner, and that seemed to kind of grease the wheels in order to move him on.

But it's very difficult.

They can't just take action.

And I'm hoping that we will see fewer occasions like this now going forward because the owner's test is far more stringent and action is being taken to prevent this but we are still dealing with the after effects of a period of effectiveness management really of allowing people to buy clubs who shouldn't have been able to so it's very difficult for them to take action and it's hard as well you know the club have been charged chancery's been charged you know punishing a club and therefore the fan base for the action of an owner who is you know in no way benevolent is obviously difficult and will upset fans even more.

But it's very, very hard not to make excuses for them, but it's hard for the AFL to take the appropriate action to force them out.

But I'm sure they'll be doing what they can to do so.

Quickly, thoughts on Michael Carrick getting sacked by Middlesbrough and Ryan Mason going to West Brom?

The Carrick one's a bit of a surprise given the timing.

I don't really understand why it's taken them the best part of a month to decide

to sack Carrick.

At times,

under him, they've been a really good championship side.

He's another manager that was really really impacted by injuries this season.

They're not well set to challenge for the top six, but an injury crisis and the sale of Emmanuel Latalaf in January, who was replaced by Kelecci Anacho, who had an absolutely torrid time for the second half of the season at Barra, means there are mitigating circumstances.

But I guess a surprise in terms of timing, you know, he's had quite a lot of opportunities to turn Barra into a consistent force, but too many bad runs seem to have stopped that.

And with Ryan Mason, it's an interesting appointment.

You know, he's someone who's clearly well thought of within the game.

There haven't been that many, I would say, appointments of this nature, kind of high-profile Premier League players taking their first drop of the championship that have been a big success recently.

But that's not to say that he can't do it.

But West Brom, under relatively new owners, certainly going to be ambitious going to next season, really struggling to cope with the lots of Carlos Corborough.

And when you look at the job that he has done at Valencia, you know, he's a really, really shrewd operator.

But yeah, Mason will have a, I'm sure, he'll be sporting in the transfer market this summer.

It'll be interesting to see how he gets on.

Maybe he's he'd learned it all from Ange.

So West Rom

some Mason ball in the championship.

Finally, Snoop Dogg is reportedly planning to open up a pop-up burger van at Celtic Park, describing it as a foodie paradise.

If only he had a song with paradise in it.

Calling Hoops fans the best in Europe.

The rapper says he's been in talks with Gordon Ramsey about the venture, even said he'll be serving the burgers himself, complete with secret spices and maple cured bacon.

Do you have any strong thoughts on this, Barry?

My initial thought is that you think Snoop Dogg is coolio.

Yeah, that was.

Oh, yes.

Sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sorry, that was a terrible mistake and exposed

my instant lack of hip-hop there, right there.

No,

your hip-hop credentials have just taken a massive pounding.

They really have.

They were absolutely huge, and now they really have.

That's a great, what a massive mistake I've just made and and it wasn't I just I just saw that and I just did it off the on the hoof there and what a mistake it was yeah I should never improvise stick to the script Max

when it comes to hip-hop specifically stick to the script yeah when it comes you're absolutely right any other thoughts um well

I I know he wants to invest in the club I'm not sure that's what Celtic fans would have had in mind if a multi-millionaire rapper had announced he wanted to inject funds in the club.

I'm not sure Celtic need his money particularly, but

I did read the recipe for his burgers and they sound fantastic.

And he was asked if he'd consider doing the same at Ibrock's and he was very dismissive of that particular notion.

So

yeah, good luck, Snoop.

Yeah, absolutely.

I interviewed him once after Live 8.

During Live 8.

Did you call him Coolio?

Hello, Mr.

Coolio.

Absolutely didn't.

Anyway, that'll do for today.

Thanks, everybody.

Thank you, Lars.

Thank you, Max.

Thanks, George.

Thanks, Max.

Cheers, Baz.

Thank you.

Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

This is The Guardian.