Is it OK to say Tuchel’s two England wins have been a bit dull? – Football Weekly podcast

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Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Two wins from two at the start of the Thomas Tuchel era, which is what we expected and it's what we got.

A comfortable if unspectacular 3-0 win over Latvia.

We've heard this before.

Morgan Rogers was very good.

Rhys James got a beautiful free kick, and Eberuchies got his first England goal.

Latvia probably should have taken the lead after a gay Pickford mix-up, and Jude Bellingham was lucky not to get sent off.

Fast forward to his red card against Portugal in the quarterfinals in Guadalajara.

But all in all, a pretty satisfactory first camp for our Tommy.

Also, today, Paul Watson's World of Football will take us to New Caledonia, Sudan, and the Marshall Islands.

Nikki's here from some Serie A, there's some Women's Champions League second legs to look forward to, too.

We'll do all that, answer your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Lucy Ward, welcome.

Hi, Max.

Hello, Paul Watson.

Hi, Max.

And welcome, Nikki Bandini.

Good morning.

Charlie says, what route should the bus parade take through London next July?

Yes,

England 3, Latvia 0.

Another very familiar feeling game.

The thing is, Lucy,

has it got to the stage now where we just have to accept whatever we do in a qualifier against Latvia in March, a year and a half of the World Cup, has absolutely no bearing on what we do against France in the semi-final of the World Cup in 2026.

And we should stop even pretending to try and have that conversation.

Yeah, I completely agree.

You know how that, I mean, you look at who's in our group, and I think Serbia is the one that's going to cause any sort of problems if they are.

But these two games were always going to go like this.

But it was just, so I thought, well, I'll look at it and try and pick out bits that it's just not an obvious we don't move the ball fast enough, blah, blah, blah.

It's very difficult.

I think the wide players are quite important.

I think when you haven't got an overlapping fullback helping the left side of Rashford, then it's very difficult because you just run into traffic.

He did keep going, but you know, I'm not sure whether, you know, on that left-hand side, a Gordon or an Eza, somebody who's a little bit more direct, will take on the defender better.

But the little things that I saw, you know, I know you've obviously talked about it on a pod about Henderson.

And I think, you know, you look at the likes of Henderson, I think those sort of older heads stop organic leaders coming through.

And I'm sure you've talked about it before, but that's one thing that I've sort of looked at there.

And I think, I do, you don't mind sort of experienced players being there, but I think that when older big hitters are there, it just sort of stops the likes of Rice sort of stepping into that.

Thomas Tuchel, interesting with the media, he isn't going to indulge the media like...

Gareth Southgate did and indulge might not be the right word.

So they're not going to be on Tuchel's side.

And I've read i've looked at a few headlines this morning and because he just doesn't give a shit and he just says it as it is the these journalists are not going to like that these big hitter journalists are not going to like the fact that he just says this is how it is um answer the questions look at them if they're asking stupid questions and that is going to shape as it does

how this country views Thomas Tuchel.

Not many people make their own minds up.

They'll sort of read a headline in a red top or whatever it might be or online.

So, that will be interesting how that plays out.

Because I like him because he just says it how it is.

If a player doesn't play that well, he'll say it.

He's obviously playing these two games, trying to work out where he wants players.

And I'm sure that

the next lot of internationals will be different again.

But

I can just see that the media will turn with him against him just because he doesn't indulge them very much.

I mean, speaking as one of of, you know, the football media's biggest hitters, I actually quite like how he

carries himself.

Do you know what?

It's interesting that Lucy said that, Nikki, because I watched the game and I just thought, well, this is fine.

I wasn't expecting the world.

I didn't get the world, but England won.

It was pretty comfortable apart from that one sort of possible chance that Latvia had.

But then the reaction has been like, oh my God, this is the dreariest thing I've ever seen.

I sort of was quite surprised by that reaction.

Maybe I shouldn't be.

Yeah, I mean, there was actually one quote I ended up jotting down from too, because I enjoyed it so much, which was when he was talking about in the second half, saying, oh,

it was better acceleration, especially in the second half.

We started a little bit too slow, slowing the game down, playing without too much movement, which makes no sense.

And I just thought, that's every England qualifier I've watched for the last.

20 years of my life.

And it was just really sort of fun to hear someone from outside the situation come in and go, this doesn't make any sense.

I'm like, yeah, doesn't don't know why they do this but they do it it feels like every england qualifier forever and it doesn't matter because as you said they're going to qualify and the games that matter are going to be a very small number of games in at the world cup but it it's i don't know it's it's fascinating that we get

new managers come in periodically and they can't seem to resolve this issue that England have

because I think especially because when you watch England with the perspective

having just watched, in my case, having just watched Italy and their performances and been going through all the fallout from those performances and things that always, always get said about Italy, which is, oh, our league is too slow, the tempo too slow.

Why can't we play fast like the Premier League?

And then you watch the England national team, it's not like the Premier League, it's something else.

Yeah, and it's interesting.

Afterwards, Tuchel said, look, it's good because I learn about my team.

My team learn about me.

We'll get there.

These qualifiers bring a bit of tension.

What happens when the going gets tough?

How will the players react?

It's important to get better.

I'll always fight for them because they've been great in training.

Some players played out of position.

Taking this into account, overall, I'm very positive.

So it's nice he's positive.

Jacob Steinberg wrote a piece about Bellingham.

And obviously Bellingham, you know, he could have got a red card.

And I felt this during the Euros that when it isn't quite working, he tries to do too much.

You know, he's like the guy at five aside who won't just play it easy and move.

He just wants to hold on to it for just a bit too long.

And that slows the game down.

And actually,

I kind of agree with Jacob that England looked a bit livelier.

It doesn't mean I think Bellingham is a fraud.

But when Foden came on in the 10 and they just started moving it a bit quicker.

I'd agree with that.

It really wasn't his type of game, Bellingham.

This is not the kind of game he wants to be involved in.

And I don't think he's that experienced in these kind of slogfests.

You know,

these games are real tests of your patience more than anything else.

And I think

the problem with these kind of qualifiers is a team like Latvia, and there are probably like quite a few of these teams in Europe, can sit back and make a pretty decent effort of frustrating you for X number of minutes.

They can't do it for 90, that's for sure.

There's no doubt realistically at some point it's going to break.

But you can see the frustration in the England team because they were just camped outside the box for such long periods.

It is really hard to break through that, but they will.

And so in a way, someone like Bellingham, I think, is so much more used to...

to kind of these bigger games.

He's used to the adrenaline and the end-to-end stuff.

But these games are just a patience test.

And I think he doesn't necessarily have that patience patience in him.

Yeah, I mean, I surely at Real Madrid, he's having a lot of games like that, though, isn't he?

Like, like, there must be lots of teams that set up in a similar way.

So, I wonder, maybe, you know, I don't know.

I just, I do feel like he just like he sort of seems to have taken this mantle, and I've said it before, and it makes it sound like I'm sort of down on him.

He played the key pass in the game against Albania, right?

The one bit of real quality.

Um, we should, we should congratulate Rhys James, Lucy, shouldn't we?

It was an absolutely brilliant free kick, wasn't it?

Yeah, I I mean,

it's quite interesting about Rhys James.

I've covered Chelsea a little bit in Europe when he sort of comes back, then his body lets him down, but now he just

seems to have got himself in a stable position where he's fit and he's playing all right for Chelsea, although Mareska sees him as a central midfielder, which I'm not sure that Tuchel will see him as that.

But the thing about it is that Tuchel trusts him because he knows him.

And I think that is quite important at this stage for Tuchel to look out on the pitch and think, well, I know you.

I know exactly what I'm going to get from you.

I think that that's a real celebration for Rhys James.

And he must have just, I mean, he looked a little bit gov smacked when he scored.

He looked like, hang on a minute, what's happening here?

But, you know, after having like, I think a couple of years of

turning up to trying to train and then back in the physio room,

it's not nice.

It's a not nice place to be because the training ground is very buoyant, but it's all about you know being active and training and playing and results.

And when you're in the physio room, it it is a not a very pleasant place so he's come out of that and it's a it's a nice story and i hope he keeps fit yeah i mean many people got in touch to say did he not celebrate because he used to be latvian we have no no evidence

to suggest that way he was so underwhelmed in the post-game interview as well that's one thing when you think well the goals just like happened and and and okay maybe it's processing he said he didn't think it was going in but but after the game it was all like oddly hilarious yeah what did you make of morgan rogers performance yeah but really um really good it felt like that was very obvious that early in the game they were they were looking in looking for that width in the in the game and they weren't necessarily getting quite the penetration from uh from the two wingers but behind that it felt like the the build-up play was was headed in the right direction so yeah i thought he was he was good i thought the um i i just don't know how to how to draw big conclusions from the game because latvia came with a very clear plan which was to to sit and camp out and that's what we're going to see a lot through qualifying.

And I thought

they did it reasonably well.

The quality gap is real.

Yeah.

England are a lot better.

Yeah, you make a really good point, which is, you know, often people say if you have a bad game against Latvia or a good game, it defines whether you can make the step up to international level.

But this isn't a step up, really.

If you're Morgan Rogers and you're playing in the Premier League every week, it's just slightly different, isn't it?

But I thought he acquitted himself really well.

He actually moves a bit like Bellingham, I think.

They have a sort of they have that sort of Zidane-esque moving style uh which is which is always nice to see so no it's interesting what what what nikki said about about the um interview afterwards i think there's lots of positives about the academy system but i i think tuchel talked about the players having expectations of each other on the pitch which i take is digging each other out right so if things are not working out you've got to have a go but i think have we produced i mean i you know working at an academy we try and produce all-round good individuals and that's what you tend tend to do but then with that are they then too nice and do they not have a go at each other on the pitch and that you know we are producing a different this is that different generation coming through you know the likes of bellingham the likes of foden

but i think the side effect of that is perhaps that they're real team players and so you know they don't tend to sort of dig each other out on the pitch but um it was it was just quite interesting and then the and then the interview afterwards was just like you know, straight down the line.

I'm just answering your questions and then I want to go and have a good laugh with my teammates.

Are you suggesting that you know in academies they need to have like a you know when they when they stop training they need to have a kind of being an asshole lesson like double there are a few of them in there to be after after lunch yeah uh how to dig out your mates.

You're right.

I mean look I fear any sort of confrontation.

I mean to the point where Paul there was huge discord in the Football Weekly family.

Producer Joel suggesting that Marcus Rashford hasn't made much of a case.

And I've thought on balance he had quite a good camp, played a lot of football, sort of did a lot of running.

It wasn't amazing, but

I thought he's helped his case rather than hindered it in these two games.

Yeah, I'd agree.

I'd agree with that.

And I think even against Latvia, which was again, as we said, a very hard game to stand out

and not necessarily the kind of game Rashford would excel in, I thought he played really well.

Yeah, I would say he was a net positive from these two.

There are a few players, I think, who will come out of this with some credit for sure.

But as you say, it's just so hard to really gain anything massively from these fixtures in terms of how they'll perform anywhere else.

The thing with Rogers that he did do is try to take his man on.

And I think that's what you're going to need a lot in these games.

It's what Rashford did as well, to be fair.

And I think the tricky thing in that specifically is...

as we saw in this game, as I think we'll see in lots of games, it is often easier to take your man on with fresh legs in the 70th minute, like Eze does off the bench, than it is doing it from the first minute.

And so, I think Rashford is the one who slightly gets

the raw deal there because he's got to do it against the fresh legs, against the team that hasn't conceded a goal yet, against a defence that still has that bit of optimism back at the start of the game.

It just is harder.

And I think Rogers is probably the one player on the pitcher it felt like, even from the beginning, was doing that most effectively.

And I think that's probably a thing that's going to stand him in good stead.

And actually, Lucy, very interesting to see Foden in the 10 just looking so much more comfortable than playing wide and really wide, which is where Tuchel wants the wingers to be, as he was against Albania.

Yeah, I mean, Ford, I mean, he's not had the best season, he didn't have the best Euros either.

I think that

everything points to the fact that he's just so used to playing the Guardiola way and the way that other players in that fantastic team open up the space for him in those sort of areas.

One of the reasons he didn't go out on loan, so he didn't ever experience someone else, and I don't think that sort of helped him now.

So now he really struggles.

I mean, don't get me wrong,

he's a top-class player, but he struggles in other environments.

And I think that's been proved.

However, he's not going to get in the 10 in front of Bellingham.

And thankfully, it looks like Tuchel's not going to try and squeeze them all in.

You know, he's going to have two wide players who are two wide players

and then the 10, and then obviously may

change the 10 and move Bellingham back at some points during the game.

But I think that's a good thing, to be honest, because we've seen what happens when you try and force Forden to play somewhere he really isn't isn't particularly comfortable with.

Did Rogers play in the ten and Bellingham slightly deeper?

I sort of was watching that, but yeah, they they played two tens last night, but um, I think Rogers is perfect in that position because he sort of drives.

Yeah, I'm just not sure that that sort of Foden fits into

anything that's not that real structure from Guardiola, which is which is a shame really, because he's so good.

Perhaps the most exciting part of the game, Paul, was the chance for Latvia.

Gutkovskis, and you just sort of think for him,

oh, how often will he think of that?

It's not a really easy chance, but it is, you know, it's an open goal from a very narrow angle.

And it's not like you just go head up, you'll get another chance.

Like, that is your chance to score against England at Wembley to put your team one up.

I mean, if he's listening, I don't want him to have that to make him feel worse.

What a moment for him.

Huge moment.

And it's funny because in the build-up to the game, obviously, this was Latvia's first ever game against England.

And there was a lot of talk about how big a moment this was for them playing.

And you got this sense that they were a little bit

overawed by the whole thing, which is understandable.

And that kind of moment, you can almost see it, just what the size of that moment would have meant to him.

And he just snatched at it.

And really funny seeing the coach's reaction, Paolo Nicolato, who always looks like a detective who can't quite solve a case that's been bugging him for 30 or 40 years.

Brilliant Italian sort of look.

And just the look on his face, I think everyone on that field knew there was a chance.

It's gone.

It wasn't an easy chance at all, but you can take it.

I do think we also need to give some credit to Christianis Viedris in the Latvia goal.

Not only was he brilliant, that was only his second appearance.

So, what a performance to put in.

A couple of those saves were really phenomenal.

And that, again, would have changed the balance.

I think there was one very early on.

He made a fantastic reaction stop from almost no distance.

If that had gone in.

Esri concert, wasn't it?

Exactly.

I say that goes in, the whole balance breaks down.

And I think, you know, as I think Nikki alluded to, when it's 0-0, you've got some hope, you've got a defense that are throwing themselves at everything.

If that goes in very early on, maybe this would have been a more one-sided game.

So yeah, fair play to him.

He did brilliantly, I thought.

And Paul, tell us about Dario Sitz and the case of mistaken identity.

Well, Max, I really appreciate what you've done there, but the man's called Dario Schitz.

There's no way around him.

That's just his name.

is quite literally his name.

And he's been involved in two brilliant, um, kind of weird online mix-ups in the last year.

So, the

first one that popped up was he was playing for the under-21s, Latvia Under-21s, against Ireland.

And I don't know if you saw this, but when the programme got made, they must have put it into a translating program by mistake.

So, it tried to translate the Latvian names.

So, he was listed as Dario Schitz in that programme.

His teammate, he had two teammates that were brilliant.

Gleb Patika was listed as Gleb liked it and Robert Melkis was listed as Robert the Liar.

So it just put everyone's name and somehow got past the editor.

The second one was he got listed.

So Dario Schitz was listed as a call-up by Germany on the German FA's official website for their Europa League squad against Bosnia and Hungary.

Despite the fact he's he's not German, he's never had any

sort of connection with Germany.

And it must have just been some sort of glitch in the system, but he was just there when the squad list was first put up.

He was just in the squad.

So it it caused quite a stir, and everyone had a pretty good laugh at it in the end.

But yeah, so Dario Schitz, everywhere he goes, a sort of

a trail of mayhem, basically.

Yeah.

Dude, the comment says, you know, if they're going to call him Bruno Fernange, they have to call him Dario Schitz.

I don't know who was on comms, but Sam Matterface, just call him Dario Schitz.

Come on.

Yes, and who was it?

Rupert the Liar?

Did you say who was it?

It was Robert the Liar.

So Robert Melville.

Robert the Liar, which was translated as Robert the Liar, which is a brilliant.

I like the idea of having a team sheet with people's names like that, like Robert the Liar.

Well, Robert the Liar is, you know, it's very middle-ages, isn't it?

It's, you know, it is for the court of Cromwell or like from Robin Hood or something, isn't it?

England's next game against Andorra on the 7th of June.

So on the 8th of June, we can have this conversation all over again.

And that'll do for part one.

Part two, we'll do other international business starting with Italy.

HiPod fans of America, Max here.

Barry's here, too.

Hello.

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a proper football journalist man exactly too much technology draws us in and shuts the world out this paper tablet doesn't it'll never beat or buzz to try and grab your attention so you can devote your focus to what or who is in front of you it has a display that looks feels and even sounds like paper.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, like, you were talking, Mickey, about Italy and the sort of fallout of the two games against Germany.

Like,

Italy did bring it back to 3-3, but

that was a very, very late penalty to make it 3-3.

There were three none of that at halftime.

So, I don't know if that is, look, we've shown some spirit here or, you know, everyone's very sad.

It's no disgrace losing to Germany over two legs i guess yeah

it was a really weird two-legged tie because italy were not by miles but they were the better team in the first leg i thought they were a bit unlucky to to lose the first game i thought they played well uh the second game the first half was was so bad just completely awful and obviously the the second goal is completely embarrassing where duano ruma is out chastising his defense and doesn't even like uh respond to the corner coming in but there was good in the second half there was also a penalty appeal that in my opinion was a penalty that wasn't given um before the late penalty.

So it could have got close much sooner.

It was a bizarre one.

It was given.

Then the VAR overturned it and did not seem like a clear and obvious error at all.

So it was a strange one.

And there was definitely good stuff in here.

Moise Ken, I think, is having a spot.

I don't think he is having a storming season at Fiorentina.

And it felt like validation of that a little bit to see him doing it in an international game as well, because obviously club context is different from international context.

And Mois Ken is, he's not, he's not old, but he's not young.

He's 25 years old.

He's been playing for a while.

And I think people might have formed an opinion of him already.

And I think this season he's kind of ripping those opinions up and saying, no, players can continue to develop in mid-20s.

And

he's really, I think, going to be a huge asset to Italy because, frankly, that has been such a problem for Italy for the last cycle, not having number nines who you felt were absolutely reliable in front of goal.

And of course, keep in mind that Retegi, who's the other one who's scoring buckets at the moment, was not available for this tie.

So suddenly Italy, after a long time of not having anyone to start up front, have some options up front, which is really promising.

I think the things that bother me are that

Spalletti

Every time he goes to a press conference, it feels like he is ready for war.

It feels like he is ready, like every innocent

softball question that's thrown at him is treated as if it's some some attempt to undermine him and

some great nefarious act against him.

And I think that level of

tension was not helpful at the Euros, and I worry it won't be helpful going forward.

I think that he's stubborn as a goat on some things.

And when I look at the fact that Francesco Achierbi, who just is the best man marker in Italy's current available set of defence, he's got some great defenders, I think, to work with, but he is the one who should be at the middle dealing with the number nines.

The fact that he wasn't in these games,

I'm just thinking, well, now we know they're in a group with Norway, and we know that Acherby has had fantastic games against Haaland,

both times inter have run into Man City in the Champions League in the last couple of years, in the last three years.

He's done really well in those games.

Please, God, tell me you're going to the CSENCE and bring him in for those games because you've got the right guy there and you need to be willing to use him.

So there's things that bother me, and there's things that I think are not unencouraging.

Look, this Germany team is generally considered to be one of the better ones in the world.

I don't think there's any shame in losing to them in the Nations League.

The fact is that Italy got through another tough Nations League group to be in this quarterfinal.

But it's definitely, and I feel like this is a constant for me when I'm talking about these things with Italy.

It feels like...

it's constantly between two extremes.

Everything's awful.

We're 3-0 down and we're terrible.

And look, we've scored three goals and actually we could be brilliant.

So, it feels like that's that's the permanent state of the national team, and frankly, Italian football as well, sometimes as well.

So, I don't know, but there was light and dark, I guess.

Oh, we've won the Euros.

I mean, that was another one, which I suppose was quite good.

Exactly, yeah, we've won the Euros.

Oh, we didn't qualify for the World Cup again.

Yeah, Japan became the first team to qualify for the World Cup.

Um, uh, Australia uh beat Indonesia 5-1 also in the group, so they're uh hung on to second place.

Um, Saudi Arabia also won, so they're on ten and nine points.

We have more listeners in Australia than Saudi Arabia, so I guess selfishly we'd like to see them qualified.

Japan were followed up by New Zealand, who beat New Caledonia 3-0 in the Oceania final.

We have many New Zealand listeners, so we look forward to them joining us for the ride next summer.

It was winner-takes-all, wasn't it, Paul?

And New Caledonia held the Kiwis until the sixtieth minute.

I don't know if they were starting to dream.

Well, it was a weird situation because New Caledonia was only one game away from qualifying for their first World Cup.

And as a French territory, that would have been quite interesting in itself.

The truth of the matter was that this game was billed the biggest game in the history of RFC because the first time it's a straight shootout for an automatic qualification place.

The reality is New Zealand were always going to be massively stronger.

New Zealand had thrashed Fiji 7-0, which was a bit of a sort of statement of intent.

I don't know if you saw Chris Wood scored a hat-trick, came off and started signing autographs and taking photos in the crowd, which got him a yellow card.

So New Zealand were coming into this, probably expecting this would be quite

an easy win, to be totally honest.

And New Caledonia really thwarted them for much longer than anyone expected.

They really held them at bay.

And Chris Wood went off injured.

And there was this moment where, you know, just maybe

there could be a shock.

But no, New Zealand were just too good for them in the end.

I mean, you look at these New Caledonia players are in the main, apart from the domestic players, they're in the fourth or fifth tier in France.

So it's a massive ask for them to hold New Zealand and actually it's a really nice moment there that the I think it was the second goal for New Zealand was Costa Barbarousis scored the goal and it ended what he described as 15 years of pain because it was missed out very narrowly on the 2010 squad selection and then was in three intercontinental playoffs

which they all lost finally got into the squad for 2022 and then was sent off against Costa Rica in their in their defeat so for him personally this was kind of like a really lovely redemption.

And, and, you know, say what you will about the OFC qualification and about how one-sided it's got, um, it's going to be great to have New Zealand at the competition, I think.

Yeah, I mean, say what you will.

I imagine most listeners say almost nothing about Oceanic qualifications is my guess.

I don't know.

A lot of people are saying, I know, I don't know, within the region or generally, that there being an automatic place for Oceania is hard to justify when you look at the fact that New Zealand beat Fiji 7-0, Vanuatu

1, Samoa 8-0,

and then 3-0 in the final.

They scored, I can't remember how many goals, something like 30 goals, and conceded one in their qualification process.

And I think eventually there'll be a pressure that's saying, well, is that actually a legitimate route to the finals in the same way that Australia eventually peeled away from it because it became uncompetitive?

So I think there is definitely some dissenting voices in the region about how this has become very one-sided.

But New Zealand definitely will add a lot to the competition.

And having had those heartbreaks in those intercontinental playoffs, I'm personally just really excited to see them there.

Were they in 2014 or 2010 where they released a DVD?

They were unbeaten.

They drew their

bits.

The unbeaten campaigns were familiar.

They basically won the 2010 World Cup, didn't they?

And Barbarossus is a bit of an A-league legend, scores all the time.

I mean, he's about 70 years old, I think.

But anyway, Dan says, did you see Maurizio Pogitino on TV saying USA could be the best team in the world in 10 to 15 years?

And the very next day, get knocked out of another tournament by Panama in a half-empty stadium in the US that Mexico sold out later that night.

Yeah, they lost to Panama in the CONCORE CAF Nations League semi-finals, 1-0.

The goal scored in the 94th minute by Cecilio Waterman, who leapt up and hugged Thierry Henry, who was covering the game for CBS.

They lost the third place game to Canada 2-1 last night, which I think means the U.S.

becomes a Canadian territory, but I'm not totally across all the logistics of it.

And then Mexico beat Panama 2-1 with two goals to Ral Jimenez.

So they win the CONCACAP Nations League.

What's happening in South America, I hear you say?

Well, Brazil, Argentina is on Wednesday.

It's a big game for me, Clive.

But so many teams qualify now, Paul, don't they?

There used to be this kind of, oh, Brazil might not make it.

And they always did.

But now, is it, what, six qualify and the seventh go into a playoff?

So you're just, you know, you're just going to qualify.

Well, I've always thought this about the South American system particularly is it flirts with there being some drama, but in reality, it's just such an enormous undertaking that by the end, pretty much everyone qualifies.

So you're looking at six going directly through, the seventh going to the intercontinental playoffs, which could be against New Caledonia.

And then I think it's two others in there or three others in there.

So in reality, yeah, you're right.

Really, it's a bit like American sports where you play all these games, then you basically knock out one team.

Venezuela, Peru and Chile are looking like they might go out, but everyone else is pretty much going through.

Get Peru in there for their kit, eh?

Tell us about Sudan.

They play South Sudan tonight, Paul.

They do.

And Sudan, this is, I think just quietly one of the biggest stories in football in its own way, that Sudan drew Nil Nil with Senegal and they remain top of their group, which has DR Congo, Senegal and Togo.

And this is all happening in the midst, obviously, of a terrible, appalling civil war.

And this team, despite that, are managing to go out and play brilliant football.

The two biggest clubs actually in Sudan are playing in Mauritania's league, so all the way across Africa.

This is Al-Khilal and Al-Merik.

They got got permission to leave Sudan because football had been suspended in Sudan.

And Al-Hilal are actually doing really well in the CAF Champions League as well.

So the fact this team kind of continues to go out there and compete with the best in Africa and are on en route to their first World Cup is sensational.

And as you say, Sudan against South Sudan today, which is quite an emotional affair.

The last time they played, actually, it was an amazing moment because

they played it in Juba in South Sudan and the anthem of Sudan played.

played, and the South Sudanese all sang along with it as a mark of solidarity with Sudan.

And it was an amazing scene.

Like there were Sudanese players with tears in their eyes.

It was quite lovely, really, to see it.

Iran versus the UAE, there was the longest ever injury time.

Is that right?

Yeah, well, Iran appeared like they've broken the law of time and space because they scored.

their first goal.

Well, they scored their second goal after their first goal

because there were 29 no second goal before that's right yeah that wouldn't break lots of time they scored their

second goal before they scored their first goal and the reason for this was because there was a floodlight failure caused by a rainstorm and instead of shutting the clock off as you'd expect it just kept running so that meant there were 29 minutes of injury time in the first half so that their first goal was recorded at 45 plus 27 which is obviously 72 minutes basically their second goal was after 70 minutes um one of the funniest things about all this is seeing all the comments of people who obviously didn't know what had happened saying typical bias refereeing, they just play until Iran scores, you know, all these conspiracy theories.

They obviously hadn't watched the game where if you'd tuned in during those minutes, it was literally a pitch black stadium with nothing happening.

They obviously had this idea that the ref had invented these minutes of extra time.

Brilliant.

But yeah, Irana.

Iran, as you'd expect,

sort of walking through to qualification, but that was

quite a game.

No, I like the idea of, you know, two fans sitting next to each other and the board goes out.

They go, where do you get that from?

29.

Where'd he get that from?

Finally, is um uh the Marshall Islands.

Talk to us about them and remind everyone where they are.

I mean, I'm guessing the South Pacific, but that's just a guess.

Very much South Pacific, some of the most remote islands in the world, in many ways, and some of the most at risk from climate change.

And this is a story quite close to my heart.

They are the last nation on earth to set up a football association,

which is quite an amazing statistic.

They were the only nation holding out until I I think 2021 and they set up an FA and they've got this amazing team of on-island staff but also British volunteers, the two main ones being guys called Lloyd Howers and Matt Webb who have taken this under their wing and have basically built an entire football infrastructure in the Marshall Islands, which is no easy feat.

Now they are looking to play their first ever 11 aside match and they've set up a tournament which is in Springdale, Arkansas in the US, which is where the biggest marsh islands community outside of the islands is.

And they're going to play it in August.

And it's going to have the British Virgin Islands, Guam, Turks and Caicos, and the marshall.

I mean, it's the best, the best of all.

It's your dream.

It might be my dream.

My dream.

But they are having to crowdfund to make it happen.

So they've got a Kickstarter page, which I'm sure.

I'll be able to direct you to if

you want to find it.

And they're actually looking for people to donate.

And it's kind of an amazing story that these islands are at very real risk of not existing anymore.

They're trying to play football matches and they're literally dependent on 20-30 pound donations from people around the world.

It's it shows this kind of other side of football that people don't really know about a lot of the time.

Fascinating, always great to hear this stuff.

Um, uh, and that'll do for part two.

Part three, we'll begin with the uh, the side, it's longer than the Lord of the Rings, that Man City versus Chelsea in the Women's Super League, the League Cup final, the Champions League.

We'll do that in a sec.

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Barry's here too.

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Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So this, Lucy, this sort of saga between Man City and Chelsea, it's fascinating, isn't it?

So Chelsea won the League Cup in the first game.

And I naively expected Chelsea to win all the games.

And then Man City beat them 2-0 in the Champions League.

You know, Viviana Minamar scoring twice, sort of late on, coming off the bench.

Chelsea then beat them in the league on Sunday.

Chelsea are going to win the league, aren't they?

So they meet again on Thursday night.

Chelsea are at home.

They are 2-0 down.

I guess if City were going to win one bit of this, they'd choose the Champions League, wouldn't they?

Absolutely.

I mean, obviously,

the background and context is Nick Cushing's come back to City when he was quite successful with them for a few years, and he went to New York City to be an assistant.

Gareth Taylor had been in charge of Manchester City, and I don't really know how he lasted as long as he did because he didn't really win anything with the squad that he'd got.

It's a perennial second place in the WSL.

But Nick Cushing's come back, so obviously his first game was the League Cup final, which Chelsea just about edged with an own goal.

Hasegawa, Man City, scored a really unfortunate own goal.

And then I did the first leg of the Champions League last week.

Miedermar came on in the second half.

Those who know Midamar was at Arsenal and scores goals for fun and was absolutely class, scored two goals.

So that means coming into this Thursday, that obviously City of 2-0 in front, but have lost two of

the four games so far.

It is quite an interesting one because, to be honest, Chelsea winning the WSL for the, I think it may be the sixth.

324th time, I think, in a row.

Yeah, it's boring.

You know,

honestly,

it is really, for me, you know, when they signed Kiera Walsh, I was like, no, you know, after they signed Naomi Germa, the best defender, and then they signed Kira Walsh, it's like, come on, you know, we need more,

we need more.

I mean, don't get me wrong, they've got the best budget, that's why they should be winning things, but you just want, you know, Arsenal, Man United, Man City to be up there and making it a little bit more jeopardy.

And then the sort of new company are talking about having no relegation, which, you know, I cannot sort of understand where they're coming from, but that would just be a nightmare as well.

So, yeah, it's exciting, but it's not exciting.

So, it will be interesting to see Chelsea have every capability to come back from 2-0 down this Thursday to get to the semi-finals of the Champions League.

And probably,

thinking about the injuries that City have got,

you know, Greenwood's out, Bunny Shaw's out, the goals, Lauren Hemp is out.

I think that in terms of being equipped for getting further in the Champions League, and there should have been no reason, I've said this before the on on the pod that there's no reason why Chelsea should not have won the Champions League when Emma Hayes is in charge.

In fact,

it's a nightmare that they haven't.

They had the probably one of the best squads around.

So they are desperate.

Bon Pastor, the manager of Chelsea, is not as desperate because she's won the Champions League

with Leon.

She's won as a manager and

as a player.

But everybody else surrounding Chelsea are desperate that they win the Champions League.

So that is quite exciting moving towards Thursday.

Yeah, a winner plays Barcelona almost certainly in semi-final.

So I mean that that is a test.

Can I just ask you about the relegation and the non-you know, the idea of stopping relegation from the WSL?

Is that

because it's

if you have relegation, then the financial implications of that are so much that people can't invest in their team, right?

There's a similar thing with the A-League in men's football and Australia, that they don't have relegation.

So from an outsider, you're like, well, this is mad.

Because, you know, if you're in the bottom two, halfway through the season, sort of, you sort of can give up or plan for next year.

But is that the rationale?

Yeah, I mean, the thing is, though,

it's trying to convince, so it's all about trying to convince the parent club.

So, usually the men's side to put money in.

And

we're not talking.

This is not much money.

We're talking sort of between five and 10 million, which is not, it is a lot of money, but it isn't in the general scheme of things.

So, trying to convince the parent club to put money in without being successful, but they need money to be successful.

So, I think that's

why that's the criteria of looking at no relegation.

But I just

it doesn't sit well with me having no relegation.

I think that there is no because of the money that we're talking about, there is no excuse for any men's team in the championship and the Premier League not to have a women's team that's working at quite a high level.

Um, for me, it just

doesn't make sense.

No, no, you're so right because

the record signing for Chelsea was a million dollars, right?

That's that is, you know, you could build a whole women's squad if you just

didn't sign, I don't know, Tim O'Verner on love or something.

Do you know what I mean?

For example, that kind of thing.

Like famous saying, the men's team have dropped more running for the bus than they spend on a women's team.

It's it's loose change.

Now, you know, your Jim Ratcliffe's would say, look, there's a priority with men's football, but I you do wonder, like, if I wonder what the knock-on effect of Chelsea women being so successful is in terms of encouraging young girls to follow Chelsea women and then maybe Chelsea.

You know, like in terms of just it sort of

there may be, there's surely a financial argument to say that investment will be worth it, especially the way the women's game is growing.

Absolutely.

You know, and

I sort of jest about it being boring, Chelsea winning everything.

But fair play to Chelsea.

You know, you see the fans turning up, you know,

they travel in numbers to city.

Arsenal also, you know, they've been quite successful.

You know, they get thousands of people.

You know, they market it right so that, you know, people follow them.

People are interested in them.

You see little boys with the women's names on the back of the shirts.

You know, like it's incredible.

So there is a lot of positive.

You know, if you look at, there's a high percentage of all these clubs whose fan base are women, right?

And if they're not, then they've got mothers and they've got sisters and they've got daughters.

So it absolutely, you know,

I just like a broken record for the last sort of 40 years of my life or more have been saying the the sort of same thing.

I I just think that that'll stunt that growth if they if they don't have the the relegation because the championship is is getting there, the the league underneath, but again but I think one thing that's not talked about is that at this moment there isn't there isn't a massive like there is in men's football, there isn't a massive amount of players at that level as well.

So you know, you're talking, we're still waiting for these sort of you know, the youngsters coming through that have have had all that and then the next generation those youngsters coming through who have been coached from sort of eight years old.

You're still waiting for that.

Remember how many years behind, blah, blah, blah.

So, you know, you've got to wait for that.

And I think putting non-relegation in there stops sort of the championship clubs.

You know, and you look at Palace, Palace are at the bottom, who just came up last year from the championship into the WSL.

They're vying with Villou, having a really poor season

to go back down to the championship.

But it shouldn't, they should be putting money in, regardless of whether you're in the WSL or not.

That's where I come from.

I think lots of us who are grown-ups support both teams, men's and the women's.

But like my niece, she's an Arsenal fan.

If you ask her who she sports, she's an Arsenal fan, she couldn't give a stuff about the men's team.

She doesn't care about them.

She's not interested, but she supports the Arsenal women's team and she's an Arsenal fan.

And in the end, like if you're

trying to sell your stuff to people, which is what in the end, all these football clubs are doing, they're trying to sell their stuff.

That's the money you wouldn't have if you didn't have a women's team.

That's so interesting, isn't it?

How that is now, you know, 10, 20 years ago just would never have ever happened it's fascinating you know of course arsenal they play around madrid they're 2-0 down they lost the first leg on that plowed field um which is completely ridiculous and uh yeah so good luck to them paul says max barry and everyone while my beloved bournemouth men have been having their best season ever can we get a shout out for our bournemouth women's team today they played bristol rovers at dean court uh in front of over 7 000 fans a 2-0 win for the cherries mean they won the league with four games remaining having won all their games conceding just three goals getting promotion to the southern premier division two away from the wsl promotion is a testament to the investment in the whole club by bill foley who's advocated for all levels at our club massive congratulations to abby jones the captain steve custom manager and this wonderful team of champions who made us so very proud thank you paul back to the men's game nikki juventus have sacked thiago motta um surprise or not a surprise maybe a small surprise just in that juventus traditionally haven't been in the habit of firing managers mid-season um although i'm not sure if that habit really is a Juventus habit so much it just was an Andrea Agnelli habit he didn't fire anyone when he was there for 13 years.

And of course, we're not in the Agnelli era anymore.

They dropped out of the Champions League places, unless Italy get the fifth qualifying spot, which they probably won't.

And frankly, I wouldn't on current form have expected Juventus to finish fifth anyway.

They've had some really bad results recently.

They got walloped 4-0 by Atlanta, then 3-0 by Fiorentina.

And Fiorentina, I think, feels worse because...

Fiorentina is one of those rivalries that was never really a rivalry for Juventus.

It's like Fiorentina's rivalry and Juventus just beat them every year and then move on.

So getting smashed by them 3-0, I think hurts particularly.

It hurts even more because they're doing it with players who you've cast aside like Moisa Kennon.

And I think these are, these,

in some ways, that's the perfect embodiment of where everything's gone wrong for this Juventus project because they've spent a huge amount of money to support Tiago Motto in this first year.

It was between the summer and January transfer windows, over 200 million euros.

euros and if we want to do net spend i think it's still close to 100 million euros and the money they have raised has been clearing out young players who now are off doing better in other places uh like dean hyson who instead of having dean hyson you've got lloyd kelly and

you haven't even got lloyd kelly you've got him on a on a loan deal and and and was that worth it and you've got

Muani in on a on a loan deal who's played well actually since coming from PSG but again you've taken someone who isn't even yours who you're now not going to get any benefit from because it's a Festito Secco is in Italy, a dry loan, there's no option to buy.

So there's been really bad transfer business.

Obviously, Douglas Louise was the big one I spent 50 million euros on, was the big one they were after all summer, and he's barely played even when he's been available.

Kootman is the other big one, has been really disappointing.

So

the team is underperforming massively.

I think Siago Mata has the third fewest points or certainly wins per game of any manager since 1930 for Juventus so it's it's bad.

I would certainly say it's not all his fault and Cristiano Duntoli, the sporting director who they brought in from Napoli for all of that transfer stuff that I was just talking about has to carry part of the responsibility.

Obviously those things vary from club to club, how much the decision is made by manager and how much is made by the sporting director and the internal mechanics of that.

No doubt there's going to be some disagreement about who should carry most of that responsibility, but I do think Juntolli should take a fair share of it.

But yes, in the short term, was it a surprise?

Yes, because right after that loss to Fiolentina, you had Juntolli publicly saying, of course, we're going forward with Mota.

But clearly, in the week since, the conversations they've had have convinced him that actually we can't go forward with Mota if we want to get in the Champions League, which again,

I don't think they're going to.

Even now, Igor Tudor did a pretty good job after coming at Lancio as a mid-season fix.

So maybe he can turn things around.

But right now, Bologna are in incredible form.

They've won four games in a row.

Roma are an even better form under Claudio Ranieri, and they're right behind Juventus.

Juventus needs to do a total 180

really in their form

to get in those qualifying spots.

And throwing the fact they've had bad cup exits as well to PSV and Empoli, it's been a pretty ugly last few months.

No, I was going to tell you as well, as apparently said, it's ashamed of choosing him in the first place of motto, which is like, but that after being his little mate, he's completely sort of thrown him under the bus as well, which is on the leaving card.

What's the coefficient, Nikki?

Will fifth get you in from Italy or not?

Because it's so tight.

Not looking like you at the moment.

So at the moment, I think England and Spain are looking

like you to get it.

There's still scope for things to change, right?

Italy have still got

a team in each of the competitions, right?

So if Italy won the Champions League, the Europa League and the Conference League, I'm pretty certain they'd get it, but the odds of that happening, not high.

Of course.

Yeah, I mean, it's worth saying, Bologna are fourth with 53 points.

Juventus are 52.

Lazio 51, Roma 49, Fiorencina 48, AC Milan 47.

So

the race for fourth place, when the Premier League is done, will be fully focused on the race for fourth place in Italy.

And the thing above that is just that the three teams above it don't look like they're going anywhere.

I think that's the other thing to say.

The top three seem kind of locked, internatholi and Atalanta.

So you've only got one spot for all those teams you just mentioned.

Paul, take us to the Channel Islands.

Yes.

Oh, look at your face perks up.

The lay of the land is what.

I mean, I know you've told podlists about this before, but they probably forget every year where are we at with the big

championship in the Channel Islands.

Well, so they have a tournament every year, the Marathi Vars, for the Channel Islands, and Jersey, Guernsey, and Alderney all play in it.

And the way it's structured, it's a semi-final between Alderney and one of Jersey or Guernsey, which rotates, and the winner plays against the other one of Jersey or Guernsey.

The problem for Alderney is they haven't won a game in this competition for 125 years now.

They took on Jersey at the weekend and gave it a really, really good go.

They actually lost 2-0, but they were only 1-0 down sort of into the last minute.

So it was a really tight game.

They had chances to score.

I think Jersey sent quite a lot of debutants, quite a lot lot of like new players out there um but this is the amazing thing about this this alterny team is every year they come out every year the whole island sort of mobilizes for this fixture and every year they do lose but it's never a thrashing it's always quite close so each year they come away saying next year next year will be the year so hopefully next year i mean the thing is it's like you know a bit like samarino when it happens When it happens, it will just be, you know, it will go down in folklore.

Like literally 125 years, at some point, they they will somehow win, right?

Just there'll be an amazing three footballers born in Albany, right?

Who are kids who haven't moved on or something.

And it will just be a I was there moment.

I look forward to it.

I always say, Max, what they should do is naturalize someone because I don't think there's any rule that prevents someone just coming and living.

There's obviously no nationality rules, right?

It's just decency that prevents this happening.

But one year...

Get some ringers.

You should just get some rings.

Just get a few people who are like coming out of their career and just bring them in and say, this guy.

Dude, do you know what?

I saw the goals from a Spurs AC Milan Legends game and Pierlo scored the most ridiculous free kick.

You know, like in there.

He's getting rid of Alderney.

Just yeah.

Exactly.

Imagine them lining up the teams and just going, what, Andrea?

Yeah, he's been here for years.

His grandmother.

His grandmother's from Alderney.

Yeah.

Mike says, just listening to the penalty discussion, this is where

Unai Simon brought down Javi Simmons.

And we wondered if Paul Robinson had ever fouled Paul Robinson while Paul Robinson was watching.

The old trivia about Leighton James scoring against Jim Layton didn't get a mention.

Did that happen?

Do their careers cross over?

Maybe they did.

Oh, I was thinking of Leighton Baines.

I don't even know who Leighton James is.

But yeah, so there you are.

And it wouldn't work.

If it was Leighton Baines, it wouldn't work.

So, you know, ignore me and listen to Mike.

Yes, Paul?

What about Paul?

Didn't Paul Hartley coach Hartley Paul at one point?

Does that count?

I mean, that's kind of.

Yes.

I mean, then I suppose Arsenger and Arsenal.

I mean, these things have happened, I guess, haven't they?

Regarding, you know, the signal WhatsApp group or whatever in the US that just accidentally included the editor of Grazia magazine on their plans for the Middle East.

Jim said, have you ever invited someone you weren't meant to in a pre-pod text group?

To which, Paul, your reply was absolutely brilliant, which was, I'll let you say it.

Yeah, I ended up accidentally being in the WhatsApp group for a Liberian football team for like many months.

I got invited by

Liberian Premier League team.

Yeah, yeah, Liberian Premier League team.

I'm actually, I don't know if I should name them because I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but I sat in this Liberian Premier League WhatsApp group for a really long time because I thought it'd be really awkward to leave because that would be underlining that this guy had added me.

It's because

I knew a Liberian footballer from past traveling episodes and he obviously had meant to invite a different pool, put me in there and I was just getting all these messages about what time training was and like loads of injokes.

I just stayed in there for months and months.

I eventually slunk out the back door at some point.

I think it was after they'd had a particularly heavy defeat against Heaven 11 and I thought, no, I don't want to be in for the recriminations here.

That's so good, isn't it?

Oh, you just at one point just send a gift or just saying, I'm running late.

I'll be there in 20 minutes.

Yeah, well, look, Fassel, currently top of the Liberian Premier League, can tell it's an international break, can't you?

Heaven 11 in second place.

Everyone's favourite.

Bottom of the table, Invincible 11.

So I feel like that is a trading issue.

Really?

Discoveries are in third and Global Pharma.

You know, Global Pharma are fourth.

You know, imagine Big pharma should really win, shouldn't they?

And then everyone can cry conspiracy.

But there we are, that'll do for today.

Uh, thanks, everybody.

Thank you, Lucy.

Cheers, thanks, Paul.

Thank you.

Thank you, Nikki.

Thanks, Max.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

We'll be back on Thursday.

This is The Guardian.