Thomas Tuchel’s winning start for England - Football Weekly

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Speaker 4 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. The all-new Thomas Tuchel England put on exactly the same performance England do in qualifiers.
Fine, it was fine.

Speaker 4 Should we lose our minds because Tuchels England weren't gung-ho, high-pressing madmen who scored buckets, or should we just accept that qualifiers against inferior but still quite good, stubborn opposition who sit deep will always be like this?

Speaker 4 Always, and that's that's fine. It was a lovely moment for Miles Lewis Skelly.
Dan Burns' great week continued, even if he was exposed a couple of times.

Speaker 4 The wingers stayed wide, probably not where Foden wants to be. Bellingham was good, and Tuchel was pretty honest afterwards about how it all went.
Elsewhere, Scotland relegated.

Speaker 4 A 3-0 home defeat to Greece, not ideal. Better news for the Republic, who stay up on the last day of the season.
You know what I mean. The quarterfinal, second legs are great.

Speaker 4 The Croatians tiring in the shootout. Spain drew on pens too, while Portugal need extra time against the Danes.
And Germany get past Italy. There's a little bit of EFL.
Steve Bruce versus Dwight Gale.

Speaker 4 Your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 4 On the panel today, John Bruin, welcome.

Speaker 3 Hello, Max. And Nada Manuha, hello.

Speaker 5 Morning, Max.

Speaker 4 From Not the Top 20. Oh, you have an England pod now.
What's that one called, Ali?

Speaker 6 That's called the England pod.

Speaker 3 Oh. The England.
How did you come up with that?

Speaker 4 That's very clever. Ali Maxwell, welcome.

Speaker 6 Welcome.

Speaker 6 On that, I don't know about you guys, but there was a period

Speaker 6 the blogging era and then the early pod era where it felt like you needed to have a clever, punny name for your blog or for your podcast. And I think it got to a point where everyone was like, why?

Speaker 6 Why do you need that? Why don't you just call it what it is? So that's what we did there.

Speaker 4 Wow. Seems like a very good choice.
People will know what they're getting, won't they?

Speaker 4 Well, look, this felt to me like every England qualifier for the last decade.

Speaker 4 And as I sort of inferred in the intro, John, I think that's okay. What did you make of it?

Speaker 3 Yes, I don't quite know what anyone would expect other than that. That's an England game.

Speaker 3 It looked like an England game. It felt like an England game.
It smelt like an England game.

Speaker 3 You had

Speaker 3 a dash of novelty in Lewis Skelly, so that's nice. So

Speaker 3 that's the bit that you take out that's really nice. You have a Harry Kane gold, you always get that.
That's okay. So we can put that aside.

Speaker 3 And then you have some players that it maybe doesn't quite work out for. Maybe Dan Byrne had hit his level the previous week.
We don't know what he'd done or that whole week.

Speaker 3 But, you know, if Dan Byrne isn't an England player, that's okay. I'm glad to see Dan Byrne play for England.
You know, all good. But then, I suppose, you move into this

Speaker 3 tactical mire of Bellingham and Foden and discussions and all that. And Thomas Tuchel is not going to be able to solve that, perhaps ever, but he's not going to solve it quickly.

Speaker 3 England games are just like this, and they've been like this since 2007, that night when people were calling Steve McLaren to be hung at Newgate or whatever it was.

Speaker 3 And it's

Speaker 3 England are just really good at qualifiers. The problem is that at tournaments where they're good enough,

Speaker 3 that's the bit that Thomas Tuchel is there for. And that's a long time away.
He's got his 60-odd days to work with them. It's going to take a long time till people

Speaker 3 decide on what side of the fence they're on although some people probably already decided because that's how people are

Speaker 4 nadam it's just one game and i suppose it's interesting because tuchall's quite pointed about what england were lacking at the euros but did it feel any different to you did you notice any differences from a southgate qualifier or a in a roy hodgson qualifier

Speaker 3 um

Speaker 5 To be honest, the Southgate qualifier is quite a while ago now, so I can't necessarily reference one of those games as such, but I think essentially for these games, I think we all watch it slightly differently.

Speaker 5 So, for me personally, like I was watching, say, Lewis Skelly, I was watching Dan Byrne, I was watching other players that were doing what the manager was asking them to do, and I can't help but look at it from more of a tactical standpoint.

Speaker 5 And one thing I thought, which was better, relatively speaking, was before the game or in the lead-up to it, we'd heard Tuchul, I think, say that they're going to try and have more of like a Premier League style to how they try to play.

Speaker 5 But then that's so broad, you kind of wonder, well, what does that mean?

Speaker 5 And the way that I saw it was there were times when they'd apply so much pressure high up the field that the opposition would feel like

Speaker 5 they were like suffering basically and there'd be lots of turnovers from them from that standpoint.

Speaker 5 And I liked it because they went as a collective because I think at times, in my opinion, like I had no issue with Garris Southkey.

Speaker 5 I think the fact that he gave England an opportunity to win something, even though they didn't end up doing it, you know, that's credit in itself because we've seen, say, from club football, say last year, for example, Man United just about get across the line against Coventry, but then they win the FA Cup.

Speaker 5 So sometimes you do just need the opportunity as opposed to have been the best team through the tournament throughout.

Speaker 5 In regards to the way that England were playing and with Southgate, Southgate at times would, I think, allow the players to be able to make decisions on the field which suited how they felt the game was going itself.

Speaker 5 Whereas I think from Tuchel, he said, we're going to press. And if you don't press, you won't play.

Speaker 5 So all of a sudden, all those players who maybe we've seen in the past take more of a back foot approach at times in games, which, you know, is the easier option.

Speaker 5 Like, it's not a bad option, but it's the easier option.

Speaker 5 All of a sudden, everybody was stepping up the midfielders were pushing right on the forwards are pushing right on and trying to make the game as uncomfortable as possible for the Albanians so I liked that side of things I think at times the tempo in terms of when they could increase it when they could slow it down that felt better and even though lots of people don't like international football it's like you said at the top of the podmax if you play against a team that will play something close to a low block it's never going to be the most exciting of games anyway But the fact is, can you still create opportunities?

Speaker 5 And I think England created quite a few. And can you really control the game?

Speaker 5 And in the grand scheme of things, you know, we can say that Albania had a couple of opportunities but i think some of that comes from the fact that we're invested in hoping that well for us anyway that england would win so you get more you get a greater sense of anxiety when they're coming forward but in reality if you were to watch it from a neutral standpoint england controlled a game of football they were deserved winners and there were some good individual performances and best of all for tuko like he's gotten a chance to see some of those players out there in the firing line and i'm somebody who would never be against like saying it's boring that a team always just qualifies for a tournament because there are plenty of times when that's not been the case.

Speaker 4 It's funny, I just feel I'm going to have 18 months of fear of us not pressing the Cameroonians in the 3 p.m. game in 50 degrees in Death Valley that we've been decided to put in that game.

Speaker 4 Ali, we've mentioned Miles Lewis Kelly, but that is such a moment for him.

Speaker 4 And I loved that, you know, he tried to be cool with the celebration, sort of did the knee slide and then realized the magnitude of it and what it meant to him and sort of almost couldn't, was just trying to not cry, basically.

Speaker 4 It was really lovely.

Speaker 6 lovely it was perfect wasn't it something for everyone i think because that was an excellent knee slide you know under pressure and uh and then to to see to see what it meant for him and as you say that that's such a clear moment of realization um i i can only imagine and then will know better than me but Presumably when you're 17, 18 years old and you're starting to play senior football and everyone's talking about you, you get into this insane mental space where you're just performing and you're just probably not overthinking it too much.

Speaker 6 And that's what it looks like anyway when you watch Lewis Skelly on the pitch.

Speaker 6 I know he's had some high-profile red card issues in the Premier League, but I didn't see a young player that was raw or lacking control, which is maybe what those red cards incidents have been held up as suggesting might be something that he needs to improve.

Speaker 6 To me, he looked very controlled, which I think in the environment he was in is super impressive.

Speaker 6 He quite clearly has had a really positive impact off the field, carried himself in the right way, impressed the senior players and kind of stood up to the pressure.

Speaker 6 So it's really exciting in an area of the pitch that England are not strong and one doesn't want to get carried away.

Speaker 6 But clearly, if we have an 18-year-old left back that's playing for one of the best teams in the world, there's a chance that that could be that situation, that position sorted for some period of time.

Speaker 6 I just think that the other thing to point out is, you know, I think the point about it looking like other qualifiers is true.

Speaker 6 I think there's an extent to which, as Nedham said, the way team's set up against England means that the match is almost always going to look a certain kind of way, or at least England will have the same sort of challenges to overcome.

Speaker 6 And it's not easy to break down a compact 10 men behind the ball. But I think if you squinted, there were some...
extra bits and bobs, right?

Speaker 6 Not just the pressing and the counter-pressing, which wasn't unbelievable, but it was, you know, ramped up somewhat. And Tuchel clearly wants more on that front.
So I think we can expect to see more.

Speaker 6 and that's exciting.

Speaker 6 If it makes England look a bit more front-footed out of possession, I think that's going to be good for fans.

Speaker 6 And I think much more in terms of running in behind and trying to, while we did complete more passes in the first half than in any game in Optas records books for an England match, there were constantly people making darts in behind and an appetite for players to make that pass, whether it was Conzer early on trying to hit Bellingham, Kane raked one over the top to Rashford, the goal obviously was

Speaker 6 a really high tariff through ball from Bellingham that he pulled off. And that's absolutely what we want to see more of and what I think people didn't think we saw much of in the Southgate era.

Speaker 6 So I'm positive based on those little bits and bobs. I'm hopeful that it can get better because Tuchel is, in theory, anyway, a world-class tactician.

Speaker 6 He's clearly obsessed with tactics because he is turning every press conference into essentially a tactical discussion, which I think some of the England press pack are finding quite difficult.

Speaker 6 He gave an answer yesterday to Rob Dorsett where he broke down the match in two minutes. And it went back to Rob Dorsett, and he went, wow, that was big analysis.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I'm loving it. I'm absolutely loving the Tuchel era.
And Max, you said people have probably already made their minds up.

Speaker 6 I get the sense, you know, looking at England pod socials and stuff like that, that actually what he's done in the last 10 days has really helped his approval rating and nudged people on the fence towards being in a pro-Tucco camp, which has got to be a good thing.

Speaker 5 Absolutely.

Speaker 5 And to go back to the opening thing you said about, say, Lewis Kelly and like knee slides, as a player, I always wanted to do one, but I was sure I was going to rupture both my chords when I did it.

Speaker 5 And so back to it as well, Lewis Kelly, for the age that he's at, having seen this behind the scenes, like he's still at the age where his parents are coming to games.

Speaker 5 I think that's something to put into perspective for the scale of the performances that he's having, the teams he's playing for, his mum and dad are probably still coming to the games of football because that's their young child playing at that level.

Speaker 5 And to give him credit again, he's not like an 18-year-old who's playing somewhere where like the results on a week-to-week basis don't really matter.

Speaker 5 You know, he's playing for an Arsenal side who this year are attempting to win the Champions League, who were attempting to win the Premier League.

Speaker 5 Now he's playing for England at home in a World Cup qualifier where they have to win. It doesn't matter who it's against.
So I give him a ton of credit.

Speaker 5 And the Tuchel stuff as well is really interesting there. I think that you said that, Ali, because

Speaker 5 in reality, Tuchel's talking about how this isn't going to be the formation or the setup that they use for every single game.

Speaker 5 So it means that we as a group group of people who are watching it, if we care about it, we've got to try and pay attention to what he's doing on a game-to-game basis, which is a good thing because, best of all, he has enough players within that player pool to be variable in terms of how he wants to play.

Speaker 5 And I think that's a big strength. Obviously, every opposition they'll play will be different in different ways.

Speaker 5 But if you have a manager on the sideline that's prepared to do that, you have a chance. Obviously, there's no guarantee of success, but you have a chance.

Speaker 5 And you've got a bunch of players who, in the grand scheme of things, aren't that old, but they're also quite experienced.

Speaker 5 And I think that's a really good position to be in heading into the World Cup next year, provided they qualify.

Speaker 3 Yeah, when I was saying that certain people have made their minds up, I'm sure amongst the fans, that's

Speaker 3 that's not the case, but it does feel like there's a slight media pressure against him. That's what I felt in certain organs.

Speaker 3 You can work out who they are. And I think one of the things is that, and Suku, I think, might need to be careful when he dished it out about Gareth Southgate's reign.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure that was the best course of action. I mean, it happens in every,

Speaker 3 whenever a manager takes over from

Speaker 3 a predecessor, you often have this talk of, well, the players weren't fit. Of course.
Two, three weeks when the results have started to go a bit, you know, squiffy.

Speaker 3 It's like, well, you know, these players weren't fit and stuff like that. I think the criticising Gareth Southgate's pretty unfair because I think he did a fine job as the manager he was and is.

Speaker 3 And it turns out he may not wish to be a manager again. He's become this influencer or

Speaker 3 men's health practitioner, men's mental health practitioner, I should say.

Speaker 3 I thought that was a bit that's one of those things that you can you can annoy people because those words can be thrown back in you in your face when, say, you draw against Latvia.

Speaker 3 And it's like, well, you know, Gareth didn't draw against Latvia now, did he?

Speaker 4 You know, but but I sense I sense, John, there is an honesty to Tuchel. Like, you had that after the game as after the game when he said, look, it was good first half, wasn't good, second half.

Speaker 4 The Wingers didn't do what I wanted. I've got to work that out.
Like, maybe that's just him.

Speaker 3 Yes, but I think that's that is the Tuchel thing, isn't it? Because we know that Tuchel's behind the scenes being that honest has maybe talked him out of a job that he loved it at Chelsea.

Speaker 3 But his being frank with Todd Bowling Egg Barley about what he wanted and how they hadn't that, and so that's actually the fun part, isn't it?

Speaker 3 The fact we've got an England manager who is going to say stuff and is going to, you know, be quotable, that's exciting in a sense, sense in in a media sense um and and we'll have things to say about english football that maybe gare southgate on those lines was is fairly political he had a lot to say about social issues and stuff like that of most of which i made him you know bang on uh but too clear it's it's going to be an interesting ride it's 18 months you know that there's going to be There's going to be sparks flying at a certain point.

Speaker 3 And that's good because, you know, International Week is that point where everyone goes, oh, no.

Speaker 3 you know but actually an england manager with something to say try to do something different okay

Speaker 4 let's do it let's let's have that ali what did you make of what he said about the wingers and about rashford and uh foden's performances and sort of how you see that bit going forward that that because there are so many of those attacking wide players it feels like that will always be the sort of part of the conversation I've I've pretty much loved everything that's come out of his mouth, partly because I think what John's trying to and what I'm feeling is it's a bit scary but it's quite exciting yeah

Speaker 6 and it's scary because he's saying things that we are not attuned to hearing an England manager say and we have been told constantly that if you say these sorts of things you can disrupt you can cause a rod for your own back

Speaker 6 you know if you cause unhappiness within the dressing room and certain players then squad harmony might be affected and all your good tactical bits and bobs might be obsolete because the players don't want to play for you.

Speaker 6 So really early days to know whether that is the case or not. I was going to actually ask Nedam what he thinks about the stuff around the players in particular.

Speaker 6 You know, just like he answered a question about Southgate's England's performances at the Euros as honestly as

Speaker 6 he could do by saying, no, I didn't think the team had a great identity and I didn't think they were great, particularly in attack, in possession, all things that we all thought already.

Speaker 6 So surely nothing that be, that you can think is disgraceful, whether he should have said it or not, I guess, is the question.

Speaker 6 But when it comes to directly talking about the players' poor performances as he saw it, that's also something that Southgate would never have done, was generally on the side of protecting the players at all costs, building that relationship with them almost like a kind of father figure.

Speaker 6 It feels like Tuchel doesn't really give a fuck about a lot of that stuff, for want of a better phrase, and is going to demand standards that these players might, you know, it must must be a shock to the system at the very least.

Speaker 6 Do you think they'll love it? Do you think because they're elite players, there's a chance it gets even more out of them? Or do you think it might turn a few off?

Speaker 5 No, to be honest, I think of everything you've said is fair, but there's one added element which we never really discuss because we never see it.

Speaker 5 And that element is what does the manager say to the players behind the scenes anyway?

Speaker 5 You know, essentially, whether a manager comes out in the media and says someone's played well or played badly, what really matters is how he's delivered the same message or a different message beforehand.

Speaker 5 You know, he gets the chance to speak to the players and tell them exactly what he thinks, whether it's individual, whether it's a collective.

Speaker 5 Like, listen, when you've played badly in a game, say in the first half and you come in at halftime, wow, some of the things you hear from managers at that point, personal, like collective, throw in stuff, everything like, wow, that's a nervous walk in there.

Speaker 5 And the same thing can happen, say,

Speaker 5 at the end of a game as well, because in reality, these players, these are players who come from places where managers are also very, very direct.

Speaker 5 They're at the top of their craft, which is why they've gotten the opportunity to be in those squads, for example.

Speaker 5 So there's nothing that Tsuka can say out in the open, which those players first they wouldn't probably acknowledge themselves.

Speaker 5 Like, it's very rare for a player on that level to be deluded to think that they've played well if they've played badly, to understand that they've not done the job that's required of them, but then still believe that they have.

Speaker 5 You know, these are some of the best minds and technicians within the game, in England in particular. So I don't think it will make any difference from that standpoint.

Speaker 5 I think if it becomes personal and you become a scapegoat, that's different. But I don't think Tuca will do that.
And in reality, I think Tuca as well is in such a,

Speaker 5 in my mind, as it stands, stands, he's in the best position because he knows how long he's going to be there for. He knows what the objective is.

Speaker 5 And it's a year before a World Cup, which is what most players dream of doing for their national team. So players will be doing everything they can.

Speaker 5 In the next year or so, we'll be talking in January about players feeling they have to move to give themselves a chance of playing in a World Cup like anything can go at this stage.

Speaker 5 But to go back to the original point that you made, I don't think those players can be upset about it because they essentially would have heard the same thing from Tuchel.

Speaker 5 And if anything, in a more aggressive way, if it's it's not good enough.

Speaker 3 So, yeah, what people what they'll read about and so on,

Speaker 5 they're personally aware of where they stand. The manager will tell them where they stand, and all the stuff at the end.

Speaker 5 That's just an extra for like narrative purposes, as opposed to the reality of you know, when they go and train the next day, and the manager says, you know, this is what we're going to do for the next game.

Speaker 4 Just on the subject of the wide players, if you're playing a low block, John, you don't necessarily need electric pace because there isn't any space in behind.

Speaker 4 So, so you sort of think those games suit, I mean, Greedish wasn't in the squad, and maybe even like a Cole Palmer out wide than it would,

Speaker 4 I mean, Saka can probably do both, but you know, a Madowake or an Anthony Gordon. And then when you play France in the quarter-final defeat,

Speaker 3 you're actually doing pace.

Speaker 4 Yeah, you want Rashford a Gordon or like Bowen or Saka ahead of a more technical player.

Speaker 3 The play you've not mentioned there, and this is,

Speaker 3 I think we're veering into Glen Hoddlepaul School's territory is Foden.

Speaker 3 You know, where it's like this player is, you know, an absolute technician, like one of the best players in English football, if not the best, yeah, and football writers have voted him as such.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 where are we putting Foden?

Speaker 4 Well, can't we put him?

Speaker 4 Can't we, can't Bellingham start, and unlike Southgate, and I, you know, obviously tweeted, kept saying, take Bellingham off, and then he'd score a great goal, Bellingham starts.

Speaker 4 And if he isn't playing well, you are brave enough to say Foden's a great 10 or Palmer's a great 10.

Speaker 3 The whole point is that you can't cram them all together. That's the whole point, isn't it? That's the Scolzy on the left.
That's the, you know, which is the

Speaker 3 failed Sven Juran Ericsson jigsaw that we had. And then, and

Speaker 3 we are all, you know, and the Gerard Lampart thing, this, this thing that we are actually is embedded in the national psyche of just like, oh no, they're going to try and plug them all in together.

Speaker 3 And that's a bit what Southgate did during the Euros. And you would hope that Tuchel isn't going to do that.
And you just think that, do you eventually say, well, okay,

Speaker 3 you know, your number one, number 10, shall we say, is Bellingham? Yeah. And then you have maybe Cole Palmer behind that.
And Foden is the wild card player.

Speaker 3 Because Foden, you think of the Manchester City player who scores loads of goals and has that thing where he sort of skates through players. And you think, how is he retaining that?

Speaker 3 Just don't see it in an England shirt. And what is it that Pep Guardiola gets from him that makes him play with that freedom? And it isn't a freedom of Pep Guardiola, of course it's not, but it's like

Speaker 3 that confidence to do that. Now, having said that, Voden isn't having the best season for Manchester City, but

Speaker 3 the player is

Speaker 3 of top class.

Speaker 3 And that's the thing with Tuchel, actually, is that it's felt like certain England managers who've been around for a long time have carried certain passengers. Tuchel doesn't have time to do that.

Speaker 3 It's like, if you can't do it for me, you've got to go because time is of the essence.

Speaker 3 So maybe actually that again introduces an element of excitement, which is just like, Foden's not doing it for it, get rid of it. City fans, you can row you want about whether it's his fault or not.

Speaker 3 It's we're on to the next guy. So

Speaker 3 that's interesting.

Speaker 4 Yeah, can I ask Naomi about the centre-backs? Because I thought Dan Byrne was exposed a couple of times, you know, when Brozer came on.

Speaker 4 But like the stats say he had all the clearances and did it, you know, he like did everything, had more, won more duels and all the things that the stats would say.

Speaker 4 And also really fun at set pieces where like other really tall people would crowd around him like a big bean pole and then sort of like try and hide him.

Speaker 4 And then he would pop out like a jack in the box and go, I'm here, guys. You know, launch it to my head.
What did you think of him? Because

Speaker 4 Torbbe mentioned that it looks like he's sort of become part of the leadership group quite quickly, Dan.

Speaker 5 He has. And the leadership group type of thing.
Obviously, it's not necessarily relative to an experience, just football and experiences. This is a guy that's in his 30s.

Speaker 5 He's played hundreds of games. and some of the youngsters that are coming through, I think the way that they're as good as say they can be, but in theory, like he's still their senior professional.

Speaker 5 So you can lean on them to learn certain things about the international game. But in terms of general football and being available and so on, let's call it what it is.

Speaker 5 Some of those players, if they do make it to 32, that is credit to them because I think that's like this is a long time playing football, whatever the level is going to be.

Speaker 5 And yeah, in terms of the game itself, like I was happy to see him there because I remember playing him in the championship and I don't remember for a second thinking this guy will be playing for England.

Speaker 5 but here is the opportunity. And I thought, in fairness, there were times when he was exposed, but that was later in the game.
I thought to start with, he was doing very well.

Speaker 5 I think also I need to give a shout to Esri Conzer because I think he's really, really good, by the way.

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 5 I don't even know if he's slept on, but I just feel like he's just accepting, everyone just accepts, oh, he's very good. You know, it's just what it is.

Speaker 5 And I think that's a nice position for England to be in because, given, you know, the guys that have done it before, like Stones and Maguire, that's great.

Speaker 5 But then they've still got Konza, they've got potentially a Cole World.

Speaker 3 They've got a gay

Speaker 5 class, though, isn't that broken?

Speaker 5 exactly that's what i mean like that's that's a nice sort of position to be in but yeah he was towards the end of the game i think he was starting to become more exposed but he had good people around him to be able to get through the tougher spells and i'll be honest most people likely would be exposed when you're doing something on that level for the first time at the sort of age that he's at at this time so i'm not i'm not too down on him obviously he's had a fantastic week as everyone keeps referencing but i think he'll treat that as a lesson because again he's a senior pro so he'll look at those mistakes and stuff that he made on a sort of individual basis probably speak to the manager about it to figure out how to do it in the next game, should he play again.

Speaker 5 But he said in an interview afterwards, he's gotten a taste of it now, and now he's desperate to be there at the World Cup.

Speaker 5 So he's going to be doing everything he can to make sure that the manager will potentially, in a year's time, give him the opportunity to live a lifelong dream, which is play for England at a World Cup.

Speaker 3 He's going up front. That's it.
I mean, you know,

Speaker 3 when England finally recognised that getting it launched is the way forward, and

Speaker 3 in those temperatures the way of conserving energy is to just

Speaker 4 one down one down to paraguay in the last 16 stick down

Speaker 4 click-ons i love it i'm kind of telling you can i just ask ali about curtis jones as well because a bit like concept you can imagine he might play every game under tuchel and not ever get mentioned in a kind of he's just this really really good central midfielder that no one seems to notice even though he's playing for Liverpool.

Speaker 4 Like, I don't know if that's just me, but I always get this sense with him that he's an under-the-radar guy.

Speaker 6 Yeah, that's an interesting one, particularly because he's very aesthetically pleasing on the ball, isn't he? He does all the things that I think

Speaker 6 you want to see as a fan, particularly, I think.

Speaker 6 Aesthetically, I'm not talking about quality of play and quality of passing, but aesthetically, when he's up next to Declan Rice, they look very different, right?

Speaker 6 It looks and feels like Rice takes a bit more time to get the ball under control and takes a bit more time to move it on, whereas Jones can receive it on the spin and quite often bounces first time passes more often than Rice so you know I'm a huge fan of Jones and really excited for him to be part of England's midfield for a long time to come I do think him and Rice as a partnership hopefully will develop further it's obviously really early days and like in any part of the pitch partnerships are going to take time to develop I think that they both have a great skill set and should be able to complement each other very well I did feel that there were times where

Speaker 6 Rice was doing the majority of the build up from deep kind of in in and around the centre-backs, and Jones was the one kind of moving high and wide and trying to space things out a little bit.

Speaker 6 I personally wonder whether, as it's always discussed that Rice is perhaps most effective as a kind of a rampager, a box-to-box, rather than being the deepest midfielder, whether it might make more sense to have Jones in those deeper areas where he's super comfortable and a really good player when it comes to playing forward passes and just have Rice with fewer touches, but maybe able to do a bit more damage with his box to box, with his goal threat.

Speaker 6 um it it's difficult to know and i trust tommy tactics to get it right but uh no i i love curtis jones i'm really excited to have him um as as an england midfielder because he's he's pure quality and as you say it's yeah it's a funny one that he's not maybe um held up as a bright one of the brightest young things because i think he absolutely is

Speaker 6 just wanted to add one last thing on on the wide players i think definitely take your point max about you know grealish types against a low block i think tuchel definitely wants pace even if there's not a lot of space in behind the goal that we scored with with skelly running in behind shows that you can still play threaded through balls albeit they have to be very precise and you can still do a lot of damage with with runners in behind and you know i think that's something that we lacked a lot under southgate where i think defenses found it always relatively comfortable when the ball was in front of them and didn't feel like they had that you know that that penetration threat that just keeps you honest whether or not you receive the ball every time and score every time it just keeps you honest keeps you fearful it can create more space elsewhere for the technical players and we don't want a team where everyone wants the ball to feet you know that the the specific name that we haven't mentioned as part of this discussion is Harry Kane the way that he wants to play and the way that he is not someone that's making those runs off the shoulder in behind stretching the the back line and the centre backs means that I think we really need wide players who are going to do that that's why Saka is to my eyes basically the perfect England player for this two-call position on the right wing, because he can do everything and he doesn't mind doing the kind of off-ball running that some players, maybe Palmer and Voden, aren't so keen on.

Speaker 6 It's the left side of the attack where, yeah, that profiler player is interesting because he clearly wants Peak Rashford.

Speaker 6 I think he sees Peak Rashford as the perfect player to play off the left for us. And that's, I think, why he's, to my eyes, giving him like...

Speaker 6 a chance that a lot of players wouldn't have had in order to try and get the the best version of Rashford because I think he sees that as the best person for us off the left.

Speaker 6 Not necessarily to have loads of touches, but to make sure he's got some X factor when he does.

Speaker 4 The troublesome left side, the ears of Steve Guppy, Jason Wilcox, and John Silarco prick up at the mere mention of it.

Speaker 4 Anyway, look, that'll do it for England because we're going to need more on them tomorrow. We'll rattle through the other international games in just a second.

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Speaker 4 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Scotland relegated to League B of the Nations League.
They won 1-0 in Greece on Thursday night. Got hammered at home 3-0 last night.

Speaker 4 You're on the minute by minute for this game, John. It was a tough night for the Scots.

Speaker 3 Oh, God.

Speaker 3 Scotland. Oh, I've always liked the Scottish national team.

Speaker 3 I'm an Englishman, obviously, but I'm glad I'm not Scottish when I watch it. I mean, it's just the misery that the performance was first 10 minutes.

Speaker 3 Scott McTominay looks like a player who plays for Napoli now. Hair's grown out a little bit more.
You know, you could see, you know, Scott McTominatio or something like that. You know,

Speaker 3 he looked excellent. And him and John McGinn

Speaker 3 and

Speaker 3 Ryan Christie is slotting it around. And you thought, yeah, Scotland have really got it, haven't they?

Speaker 3 And then Greece just put it together. It was the commentary on BBC Scotland that got to me.
It was almost as soon as this first goal went in, the loss of

Speaker 3 belief,

Speaker 3 the loss of belief was just incredible. And the stadium was, you know, it's quiet.
And I think it had been a really emotional occasion because Sir Alex Ferguson appeared

Speaker 3 and they did a tribute to Dennis Law. And, you know, I had a tear in my eye watching that.
It was like, wow, you know, great.

Speaker 3 And that's the thing. Scotland is

Speaker 3 Scottish football is a brilliant thing and has achieved so much. And then the national team play like that.

Speaker 3 Now, I don't want to pick one person out, but Grant Hanley, his Scottish career, Scottish career, has lasted, it appears, the last 30 years.

Speaker 4 Feels like you have picked one player out.

Speaker 3 I can't help but notice. But

Speaker 3 he's always on the crime scene. Always on the crime scene.
I'm sorry to say that. And, you know, the goalkeeper is Craig Gordon, who has been playing for the last 30 years.

Speaker 4 And playing well. And playing well.

Speaker 3 He's a really good goalkeeper. He's an excellent goalkeeper.
But it just fell apart. That was a very young,

Speaker 3 let's credit Greece, actually. We'll switch to that.

Speaker 3 That's a team on the up. We saw them.
They beat England, of course, at Wembley. They've got that striker, Pavlidis, who scored a hat-trick for Benfica against Barcelona on a losing side.

Speaker 3 And a couple of youngsters who

Speaker 3 really looked apart.

Speaker 6 17-year-old.

Speaker 4 Konstantinos Karetsas. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Karetsas looked absolutely brilliant. Konstantelias looks a very, very canny forward

Speaker 3 to which that Scottish defence really struggled with.

Speaker 3 And I think that was the difference is that Scotland do have those good midfielders, but then they've got that.

Speaker 3 Greece has that quality in attack. That real, you know, it's the ability to beat players.
It's the ability to open up space and cut through. Whoever...
Greece aren't going to be a threat, I think.

Speaker 3 That's an emerging nation. I mean, mean, obviously, they've won the Euros before, but they didn't play like this.

Speaker 3 And, of course, they have that Andy Warhol-style coach, don't they?

Speaker 3 But yeah, but Scotland, it was a sad lament. And you think, you know, Scotland haven't been at a World Cup since 1998, and it felt like they've already given up on being in America.

Speaker 3 And I thought, that's very sad.

Speaker 4 That's awful. I mean, this is the Nations League, right? So it's not their qualification campaign begins later.

Speaker 3 No, no, but of course, because they had it, but they're in a four-team group. and I think it was between Portugal and Denmark.
I think they who they'd face in the next round. And it's

Speaker 3 listen, listen back to that commentary and tell me that

Speaker 3 that nation is confident about going to the next World Cup.

Speaker 3 It was pretty sad, and I think they found Euro 2024 a pretty scarring experience because there was so much hope there, wasn't there? And it was extinguished.

Speaker 3 And it felt like Steve Clark had turned it around a little bit we mentioned the game in in midweek

Speaker 4 I think there's going to be a lot of soul searching in Scotland they also had Musakitis who looks even younger than than

Speaker 4 Karets has and there's a great shot of him he's sort of marking John Souter who's only in his 20s but looks like a big old gruff Scots in the beard and Grant handling next to him and he looks like as Jim says one of the mascots for Greece

Speaker 4 playing there. Wales beat Kazan starred 3-1.
Ellis James is on his way to North Macedonia. A listener's emailed to say they spotted him en route.
So we'll get a voice note from Ellis from there.

Speaker 4 I just wonder, Nadam, how impressed you've been with Craig Bellamy.

Speaker 4 I was trying to work out, you must have played against him, but I mean, I don't know if you played with him for like three years and I haven't noticed.

Speaker 5 Well, it wasn't three years. It was a couple of years I played with him at City.
You signed under Marcuse, I believe it was, possibly in the first...

Speaker 5 the second transfer window when Marc Hughes was there, I believe. And I'll be completely honest with you.

Speaker 5 Craig Bellamy didn't give me vibes of being a coach no chance whatsoever we're talking at times like with all due respect to Craig one of the most hostile teammates you could probably find in football but but more so in terms of it's just the way that he would try and express his message that he wanted to deliver like so aggressive sometimes like

Speaker 5 what's going on here what's the matter but weirdly like I I got on with him and quite a few people did because when you understand what he's trying to say, then you can sort of critique less like

Speaker 5 how he said it because he just wants to do well he wants to work hard and he wants you to do well as well but maybe he had anger issues at the time but since seeing him um after he's retired calmer person and i think most importantly like this is him coaching his national team so he's doing absolutely everything he can to be the difference because he knows how much it means for his people so the way that he's gone about his say coaching since he's been working alongside company for the last couple of years and the stuff that he's learned there because I remember Craig saying to me I think it was a couple of years ago when company was at Burnley he was talking about some of the stuff that company was doing and he was so impressed by it he said he's just light years ahead in terms of certain bits so I think Craig's had that coaching side of things he's seen a different sort of perspective And now, as I say, what an honor it is for him to have that job and he's going to do everything he can to be successful.

Speaker 5 When he walks into that space, I think some of the hostilities that maybe he had when he was younger, you know, that's not really going to transfer well to those players because, you know, there's a delicate balance between, say, being critical and just breaking somebody down altogether.

Speaker 5 And I think when Craig was younger, I think everyone that played with him or played against him has got a Craig Bellamy story to some extent.

Speaker 5 But like I say, it's great to see him on the sideline, having to do things a different way.

Speaker 5 And they see him on the sideline doing the job, the one job which he probably would have taken over any other, should he step into that coaching/slash managerial side of things.

Speaker 5 So I've been incredibly impressed. And when you listen to him talk about that team, you know, that passion and that joy, you know,

Speaker 5 it's inspirational. You can feel it.
It's a really, really nice story.

Speaker 5 And while they continue to do well, you know, these are the, these will be the best days that he's had because for him as a player, for Wales, he had so many highs, but for him to be able to lead his nation like this, you know, it's a great story and it's a great achievement for him so far.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I think this is one of those where a 3-1 win at home to Kazakhstan in and of itself doesn't leap off the page, but I think it's the kind of next step on the Bellamy path.

Speaker 6 And I think from what I understand, the Wales fans are really loving it.

Speaker 6 Not least his

Speaker 6 communication about the way he wants the team to play. A bit like Tuchel, he's very heavy on the tactical discussion.

Speaker 6 And I think, for a certain Wales fan, that's a breath of fresh air in the way that he talks about the game, very specific about what he wants. And not all of it is particularly traditional, I guess.

Speaker 6 And then, you know, he's backing it up with his team selection and his tactics. This is definitely a Wales team,

Speaker 6 you know, again, at home to Kazakhstan, expected to dominate and win the game.

Speaker 6 But, you know, he's certainly got the handbrake off in terms of the way he's setting the team up, essentially with like one sitting midfielder where Wales teams and other national teams have often played a bit more conservative in the past.

Speaker 6 You know, Cullen and David Brooks, basically as number eights, both of them, you know, naturally much more attacking players than what you'd expect to be kind of box-to-box midfielders.

Speaker 6 Brennan Johnson, obviously, came off in the game, but has been playing through the middle, I think.

Speaker 6 And then really aggressive wingers, Daniel James, high and wide on the right, and Sorba Thomas, really good crosser of the ball, and always seems to play well for Wales, even if he doesn't have a great time at club level at the moment.

Speaker 6 So, I think there's a real freshness to it, and I think that's being appreciated by the Welsh fans, both in the way that he's talking and the way the team is setting up.

Speaker 6 I think they see what he's trying to do, and that's obviously a good start for any manager.

Speaker 4 Good night for Evan Ferguson, John.

Speaker 3 Republican. Oh, yes.

Speaker 4 Another win for them. They're safe.

Speaker 4 They're beating Bulgaria 4-2 in aggregate. One this one, 2-1.
What do you make of it?

Speaker 3 Evan Ferguson is one of those sort of stories that I think most of Irish football has been following because

Speaker 3 I think

Speaker 3 two years ago there was this point, wasn't there, where

Speaker 3 even Alan Shearer was saying, you know, this is the successor to my crown, the way that he plays. Because Ferguson wasn't quite like the full number nine.
He was also could play a bit more

Speaker 3 creatively, sort of nine and a half.

Speaker 3 And then he got some injuries. He's come back.
he's a big guy, and I think he probably struggles to keep hold of his

Speaker 3 physique. He's gone to West Ham, it's not gone well, but then the goal that he scored was the Evan Ferguson that we remember, and that we hope to see again, and that Ireland hopes to see again.

Speaker 3 That's his, I think that's his fifth goal for Ireland. The Irish camp,

Speaker 3 well, not perhaps as doom-laden as the Scottish, has had problems with Haimer Helgerson.

Speaker 3 There's been a lot of internal rows because there's been this idea that he won't select players from the League of Ireland.

Speaker 3 The fact that he

Speaker 3 a bit like Thomas Tuchel, where

Speaker 3 he was accused of working from home and using Weiscout and all this type of thing, rather than the traditional thing you've got to watch players play.

Speaker 3 But maybe after that win over Bulgaria, who were no great shakes, as to be said, things are a little bit more on the up.

Speaker 3 And in Evan Ferguson, well, Brighton in particular, you know, there was a player that they would have could have accepted 80 million for

Speaker 3 not long ago. He's gone to West Ham.
I'm not sure the terms of that deal, but

Speaker 3 I think he's expected to return. You know, if they are going to sell that player, which Brighton's model is built around that, then they could be looking at the player returning.

Speaker 3 But it's a good thing because he's a young player who suddenly looks so amazing, has come back.

Speaker 3 Ireland need him. They really need a striker.
Great performance, actually, from Finn Azaz, I should mention,

Speaker 3 of Middlesbrough. Yeah, well done, Ireland.

Speaker 3 We keep saying that. And they didn't even score a traditional Irish goal, the ones that we've talked about before.

Speaker 4 Northern Ireland drew one all with Switzerland and friendlies. Good result for them.
They play Sweden tomorrow night.

Speaker 4 Belgium had lost the first leg of their Nations League promotion relegation game with Ukraine 3-1. And the second leg was 0-0 with 20 minutes to go.

Speaker 4 Then they scored 3. Lukaku, who earlier had one of those, Lukaku missed, scored two.
His first, a great sort of Mark Hughes-esque volley.

Speaker 4 The quarter-finals were brilliant, and we don't have a huge amount of time to talk about them.

Speaker 4 Germany, three, Italy, three. Germany with 3-0 up a half-time.
They go through 5-4 on aggregate. We should talk, Nadem, about the goal from the corner, the Mussiala,

Speaker 4 sort of an extreme version of Trent Alexander Arnold to Arigi, isn't it?

Speaker 4 Donnaruma is basically outside his box when it happens.

Speaker 5 Do you know what, though? Like, Donnaruma is obviously in the wrong, but so is everybody.

Speaker 3 Like, what are we doing? Like, the ball has gone out for a corner.

Speaker 5 Why is it time for a social?

Speaker 5 Like, fair play to, I think it was Kimmich playing it to Mussialo or whatever. It's great that they can see it from that manner, but they're probably so stunned.
Like, why is nobody here?

Speaker 5 The ball is in the corner. You know, it's not one of those things where you have to be saying, oh, wait for a whistle, 10 yards and all this.
You're going to play the game.

Speaker 5 You can play a quick set piece. So I don't know what was the need in that moment to have such a big discussion.

Speaker 5 after somebody's just made a save just defend like defend it i'll be honest it really upset me because you wouldn't see that realistically.

Speaker 5 That feels rare to look at on your screens, and it's just as rare to see anywhere that you'll see a game of football being played where every single person switches off everyone, apart from maybe two.

Speaker 3 You needed to watch it twice, though, didn't you, to know to work out what had gone on? Yeah, literally. It was like because it was like, how? Hey, oh,

Speaker 3 what have we done there? Like, is this real?

Speaker 5 Like, there'll be certainly telling players who wouldn't even know how that ball went into the net. And when you think about this, is the highest level of football, probably, like, what's going on?

Speaker 4 Yeah, it looked like a computer game, didn't it? I mean, definitely. Sunday League, I'd be like, I would certainly be, I just think I wouldn't have switched off.

Speaker 4 And if that's the level, then they shouldn't.

Speaker 3 I'll be honest, Max.

Speaker 5 I think somewhere somebody could have just been standing, luckily, in the right position anyway, to stop the ball from going in. How is every single person in the wrong position?

Speaker 4 Why is no one having a breather on the post to stop?

Speaker 3 Go get a drink. Go get a drink or something.
Maybe you'd block it on the line. Who knows?

Speaker 4 Spain drew 3-3 with the Netherlands. They won 5-4 on penalties.
Yamal scored an amazing goal to make it 3-2 an extra time. It was Heyson Bournemouth centre-back, wasn't it?

Speaker 4 That's when I learned he was Spanish. Picking him out.
And then the way he took it down and just sort of cut inside was so nice.

Speaker 3 I was talking about Dean Hausen to a friend of mine the other day.

Speaker 3 He was saying, and I shared this, that we thought his name was Dean Hausen, and he was some local lad from

Speaker 3 Dorset.

Speaker 3 and then it turns out I mean there are the one thing is that there aren't many people of 1920 called Dean it's more the name of like a yeah 50 year old electrician from Macclesfield yeah then of course it's like oh he's Dutch right okay right so they got him and then then it turns out he's playing alongside Robin Lenormand

Speaker 3 for food for Spain

Speaker 4 and what a class player he is oh isn't he uh producer John Lang that Unai Simon took out Javi Simons or Simmons to give away the penalty to make it 3-3.

Speaker 4 Has there ever been a namesake penalty, a score of E-keeper? Did Paul Robinson ever bring down Paul Robinson? While Paul Robinson was committing fraud at Lasseter's,

Speaker 4 that's what I was thinking. Get all the Paul Robinsons.
There were two outfield Paul Robinsons, weren't there?

Speaker 3 There was three. Yeah, there were two Paul Robinsons.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one of them could set up the other one and then be taken down by Paul Robinson while Paul Robinson is trying to, you know, screw Luke Carpenter in some business deal.

Speaker 4 Portugal are through. They went extra time with Denmark winning 5-3 on aggregate.
Quite a Ronaldo-heavy game, Ali, as you sort of expect

Speaker 4 for Portugal.

Speaker 6 Yeah,

Speaker 6 it's always somewhat Ronaldo-heavy.

Speaker 6 I take great pleasure in actually wanting to point out the match-winning performance of Trincao off the bench, Gonzalo Ramos scoring, where Ronaldo was seemingly finding it quite difficult.

Speaker 6 I actually think, you know, leaving Ronaldo to one side, it's the ability of Portugal to bring Diego Jotta, Nelson Semedo, Trincao, Gonzalo Ramos, and Ruben Nevsch off the bench here, whereas Denmark brought on a lot of really young and less experienced players that probably swung it because, you know, Denmark clearly acquitted themselves really well over the two legs and ran Portugal very close.

Speaker 6 I must admit, I was recording last night, so I wasn't watching these games live, reading...

Speaker 6 all of the match reports, I genuinely felt like I was just reading the same match report over and over again, which is broadly loads of goals were scored and some really good goals, and then the other team would score, and then it would be level, and then we'd go into extra time, and then there'd be a penalty shootout, and some players missed, and some players scored, and in the end, some of the teams went through.

Speaker 6 You know, what an incredible set of fixtures, incredible tick in the box for the Nations League, of course.

Speaker 6 And are we at the point now where we all agree that it's added quite a lot to international football, particularly Jeopardy, some extra competition, and

Speaker 6 putting teams in categories that make the games a little more equitable seemingly has created quite a lot for nations of all sizes.

Speaker 6 I just feel a bit like a party that we England fans haven't been invited to here because this all looks quite a lot of fun. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And they all get into quite nice qualifying groups as well off the back of it.

Speaker 4 That did make me wonder: should all the World Cup or Euros quarter finals be on at the same time? Just not frantically looking at four televisions going completely insane.

Speaker 4 France got through on penalty against Croatia, they won 2-0. Elise's got a beautiful free kick.
Then he set up Smana Dembele

Speaker 4 for the second. The shootout went on forever, and it felt like Petkovic almost saved every France penalty except for the ones that were blasted into orbit.

Speaker 4 But Upa Makano scored the decisive one. And so they're the semi-finals that are set up.
And that'll do for part two. Part three, we'll rattle through some EFL

Speaker 4 and then all go home.

Speaker 4 We are, to be fair, already all at home, but

Speaker 4 you take the point.

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Speaker 4 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. League one, Rexman have had a...

Speaker 4 a good couple of weeks beat stockport 1-0 after beating wickham 1-0 the other day um and disappointingly Peterborough looks safe after beating Charlton. Crawley

Speaker 4 at the bottom. Well, what's interesting, Ali, is and we should talk about Reading, right? This is much more important than anything else happening.
Is that

Speaker 4 the Reading owner Dai Young has been given the deadline of April the 4th to sell the club after he was disqualified on the EFL owners and directors tests, which presumably, you know, we all knew a long time ago.

Speaker 4 So, what does that

Speaker 4 mean?

Speaker 3 Well, it's

Speaker 6 very complicated, is the obvious answer,

Speaker 6 and some of it very much above my pay grade and understanding. But ultimately, I think it's a positive step in some senses that this has been, you know, that Dai-Yong

Speaker 6 has been

Speaker 6 disqualified essentially by the EFL from owning the club. I'm sure there'll be a lot of people wondering whether this could have happened earlier.
But, of course, doing that. does trigger this

Speaker 6 situation where he must sell or divest within 28 days of notice and if not the League One side could be suspended.

Speaker 6 Now, the EFL, as I understand it, are A, turning up the heat on DAI, which, you know, again, could we have done this a bit earlier, but also are going, are really trying to help.

Speaker 6 Reading in what is a pretty desperate situation where one man seemingly holds a huge amount of the cards here.

Speaker 6 He's not the only one, though, because there is a lot in this and much of it pertains to Rob Kuig, who was the owner of Wicked Wanderers until last year.

Speaker 6 He was previously a prospective owner of Reading and had gone fairly public about that and got the Reading fans quite excited only for the deal to fall through.

Speaker 6 He is now in legal wranglings with Dai Young, which is presumably not really helping the situation. I'm not sure if it's worth assigning any blame to anyone here, but that is the case.

Speaker 6 And Rob Piatek, who is the current prospective owner who would like to take over the club and seem serious about doing that, you know, is having to kind of wait while some of this other stuff gets sorted out.

Speaker 6 So it's hugely complicated. I think this news was positive in some senses, but it is also scary.

Speaker 6 And,

Speaker 6 you know, Reading fans, it's been so protracted, this, and

Speaker 6 it's a really horrible thing to live, I think.

Speaker 4 If they don't sell, if he doesn't sell, what does that mean?

Speaker 4 Reading, what they get relegated or they just or?

Speaker 6 I don't know. I don't know.
And I don't want to say in case

Speaker 3 it's wrong.

Speaker 6 You know,

Speaker 6 it's such a delicate situation that there have been times where news has come out about Reading that we have, you know, talked about on our podcast and said, you know, this seems like good news.

Speaker 6 And the response we generally get from Reading fans is they're so tired that they're not seeing anything really as good news until the actual, really, really good news of it all being sorted.

Speaker 6 So at this point, it's absolutely worth talking about the story, making sure that it's in the spotlight. But it is, you know, it's very, very difficult to sift through.

Speaker 6 And, you know, the end maybe is more insight than it once was, but it's not definite that the end will be a positive one.

Speaker 4 In Luke Two, worth pointing out, 23,000 people went to watch Bradford play Colchester. Colchester were on an amazing run, but Bradford hammered them for one.

Speaker 4 And it was non-league day on Saturday. Record attendance at Scunthorpe.
I think got over 8,000 in the sixth tier, which is amazing. Edward says, Hi, Max and Crew.

Speaker 4 Just wanted to give a shout out for Non-League Day, which happened over the weekend. There's an Everton fan living in London.
I'm always keen for a chance to watch live football.

Speaker 4 The lack of anything to watch on Saturday encouraged me to take my six-year-old son to watch our local southern Premier League South Team Hanwell Town.

Speaker 4 Hail in a Thunderstorm didn't stop 502 fans rocking up to see the Geordies, which is Hanwell Town's name, squeeze out a 1-0 win against AFC Totten, boasting Charlie Austin up front and James Beattie as director of football.

Speaker 4 Dave Bessant in the stands, watching his son playing goal, along with an announcement to ask the crowd to look for a lost Batman toy.

Speaker 4 Gave an old school feel, a community feel, which is sometimes lost in the Premier League era. A great afternoon out.

Speaker 4 And for not much over 20 quid, highlighted the unique, incredible football pyramid we have in Britain. Thank you, Ed.
Worth pointing out, John Macclesfield, promotion. Yes.

Speaker 3 Congratulations, Robbie Savage and Rob Smithers, the owner. On the way back to

Speaker 3 National League North by beating Bamba Bridge 2-1 at the weekend. Big celebrations in the Star Lane end.
One of the game, you know, the fans running down.

Speaker 3 It looked like some sort of Italian match you'd see on Serie Arno 90s, you know, when the fans run to the. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they celebrate it.
It looked magnificent. Listen, I mean, I spoke to you at the time when Macclesfield Town went bust.
That was a really depressing time.

Speaker 3 My heart goes out to Reading fans who may fear a similar fate as happened to Berry or something like that. But they're on their way back.

Speaker 3 There's now talk about whether Robbie Savage will be tempted away.

Speaker 3 He said that he feels like he's there for a long time. And he's someone that's taken the town to heart.
They've taken

Speaker 3 the town has taken him to heart.

Speaker 3 It's been

Speaker 3 really heartening, in fact.

Speaker 3 A good news story about Macclesfield.

Speaker 3 It's funny, it was a football league club for many years, but it feels like a bigger club now, now it's in non-league. It feels like it's got more ambitions,

Speaker 3 it's better run. Obviously, clubs hit a ceiling, but it's not hit the ceiling just yet.
And,

Speaker 3 you know, I will always think of MAC as almost a non-league club from being a kid.

Speaker 3 And funny enough, being in the EFL wasn't that easy for a club of that size.

Speaker 3 You know, as I say, you hit this certain point, and then, you know, strolling in the

Speaker 3 lower part of the, you know, fourth tier tier isn't that easy compared to the glory of winning promotion and stuff like that.

Speaker 3 Foot football isn't always about the top division, is it? That's the thing. No.

Speaker 4 I like credit to Robbie Savage. I think not a lot of people, perhaps, me included, took it seriously that he would be really good for this club and be a good manager for this club as well.

Speaker 4 So credit to him.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, last season they lost in the playoffs. And then he he's come in and done that job.

Speaker 3 I mean, there was a lot of suspicion, I think, that people felt that he was already overarching, but he's come in and shown that, yeah, he can do it.

Speaker 6 Is there an extent to which the League Above, the National League North, or possibly even the National League itself would be in terms of like fan base gates and therefore a proxy for kind of revenue, if you like, or organic revenue, that that would be a more natural level for Macclesfield.

Speaker 6 And so, you know, not to take anything away from winning a league title in March, which is an incredible achievement, but you know, the next highest, they averaged 3,000, which is more than four League Two clubs do.

Speaker 6 FC United of Manchester, 1,500, and then everyone else at the level, less than 1,000. So it feels like they've had some advantages, which, you know, the challenge grows now, right? Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 Yeah. One of the revenue swellers is the fact that you can drink at the game.
And if you know Macclesfield, it's a town that likes drinking. And

Speaker 3 I was actually looking at that. I think in the National League North, you still can do that, but be any bl then the revenue

Speaker 3 you have to change your revenue options or whatever.

Speaker 4 Would like a manager who said, manager who was like, hmm, don't want to get promoted because I want a pint on the touchline.

Speaker 3 I want a pint on the sideline, yeah.

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah, it's that.

Speaker 3 Because you you do you do have the sight of Robbie Savage. I've told you about this sort of like tiki lounge next to the dugout.
You know, you just people just swilling.

Speaker 3 It's an outside area with seats and you know, it's lovely. This is a way forward.
This is, you know.

Speaker 4 Finally, R.J.

Speaker 4 Gray says, is Steve bruce versus dwight gale the most entertaining fixture of the international break he was okay dwight gale told the open goal podcast i felt that he didn't spend enough time working on a lot of things with us perhaps he was trying to do a game by game rather than developing us as a team i think we could have improved a lot Me and Matt Ritchie were asking for tactical improvements for weeks, months.

Speaker 4 We came in at halftime, we were two or three down. He was like, boys, you keep asking for tactics.
I don't do tactics. Just put your boots on and work hard.

Speaker 4 To which Steve Bruce replied, is that the legendary Dwight Gale who missed the chance in the court final against Man City? Is that the same Dwight Gale? Interesting.

Speaker 4 I've I've been around the block a long, long time. I've only managed 1,050 games, but according to Dwight, I don't know what I'm doing.

Speaker 4 I'll let other people make their minds up who are a bit more established than Dwight ever was. To which we turn to Nada Manuel to finish the podcast and say,

Speaker 4 who is right and why?

Speaker 5 So I'm friends with Dwight, and Steve Bruce is a former manager, so I'm literally in the trenches.

Speaker 3 I'm in the trenches.

Speaker 3 You're in the perfect place here.

Speaker 4 You're in the eye of the storm. Lovely.

Speaker 3 He's the arbiter.

Speaker 3 Yeah,

Speaker 5 listen, if Dwight Gale is being spoken about as not being a big enough profile, then I certainly can't say a word. So, Steve Bruce has managed a lot of games of football and he does it his way.

Speaker 5 That's all I'll say. He does it his way.
It's not for everyone. He does it his way.
And Dwight's perspective might be valid. Perhaps this shouldn't have been a critique.

Speaker 5 But yeah, the two of them maybe don't see football in the same manner. But one guy's done it for a thousand odd games, as you mentioned.

Speaker 3 So yeah, shout out to them both.

Speaker 5 Yeah, you keep talking, boys.

Speaker 4 Yeah, which way is your way, Nathan, out of interest? The Dwight Gale or the Steve Bruce way?

Speaker 3 I

Speaker 4 The two great stars of football, Steve Bruce or Dwight Gale?

Speaker 5 Well, the season we had at Sunderland in that year, the aim was to finish top 10, and we finished top 10, and we kind of did it

Speaker 5 in the last game of the season away at West Ham. We needed to win.
We were like in 12, 13th, and it didn't feel in that last week like it was still possible, but we did do it.

Speaker 5 So this credit deserves to be given. I was only there on loan for the year, and the previous manager had was Mancini.
And Mancini and Steve Bruce were two very different tacticians.

Speaker 3 Let's just say that.

Speaker 4 Perfect. Phil's the best place to end, and that'll do for Day.

Speaker 4 Yeah, thank you for stepping off the fence a tiny bit there, Nadam. And appreciate your time.
Thank you.

Speaker 5 Pleasure, mate. Pleasure.
Thank you.

Speaker 4 Good, man. Cheers, John.
Cheers. Thank you, Ali.
Thank you, Max. Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.
Our executive producer is Phil Maynard. We'll be back tomorrow.

Speaker 1 This is The Guardian.