Why does Saudi Arabia want to host the World Cup? - Football Weekly

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Speaker 24 Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 38 This is a special on FIFA's decision to award the 2034 World Cup to Saudi Arabia. What appeared to be a fait accompli for years was rubber stamped on a Zoom call last week.

Speaker 39 Delegates applauding it through like it was some kind of COVID game show.

Speaker 37 Questions then.

Speaker 38 So how transparent was the bidding process?

Speaker 40 Why did Saudi Arabia want the World Cup?

Speaker 41 And why were FIFA and Jenny Infantino hell bent on them getting it?

Speaker 7 How have FAs around the world reacted?

Speaker 42 What can they do?

Speaker 38 Much like Qatar, there are big questions over the rights of migrant workers, given the amount of stadia and infrastructure planned, including building a Checks Notes new stadium 350 meters above the ground in a city that doesn't exist yet.

Speaker 38 The rights of women in LGBTQ community also need serious consideration. Saudi Arabia does have a strong football culture.
Many fans from the Middle East and Asia love the Qatar World Cup.

Speaker 38 How should we face the accusations of being Eurocentric or just being biased Westerners when we discuss all the above issues? This is the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 8 On the panel today, Barry Glendenning, welcome.

Speaker 1 Hi, Max.

Speaker 38 Nick Ames, who's written extensively on the Saudi bid and the Qatar World Cup before that.

Speaker 42 Hey, Nick.

Speaker 43 Hey, hello, Max.

Speaker 41 Philippe O'Claire, Football Weekly's Moral Conscience.

Speaker 5 Bonjour Saur.

Speaker 1 Servatrio, Max Merci.

Speaker 44 And a friend of the pod, Lina Al-Haflul, Saudi human rights activist,

Speaker 33 who you may remember we talked about when Saudi Arabia were going to buy Newcastle, about her sister who was imprisoned by the Saudi regime, also fighting for women's rights.

Speaker 41 Lina, thank you so much for coming on. How are you?

Speaker 45 Hi, Max. Thank you so much.
I'm good.

Speaker 13 Let's begin with the process.

Speaker 38 FIFA boss Jenny and Fentino announced the decision to award the tournament of Saudi Arabia in that Zoom meeting I mentioned in the intro.

Speaker 46 This is how it sounded.

Speaker 47 And last but not least, it is

Speaker 47 a great pleasure

Speaker 47 that I can confirm

Speaker 47 that the host of the FIFA World Cup 2034

Speaker 47 will be

Speaker 47 Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 47 Madhroof, Madruv, to our friends. Enriat.

Speaker 38 The bidding was officially opened on the 6th of October 2023.

Speaker 12 It gave prospective countries just 25 days to get a bid together, something that usually takes months, and that Saudi Arabia had been prepping for some time.

Speaker 42 Apart from that bidding process, no confederation that has hosted the World Cup can host the following two, which meant 2034 had to go to Asia or Oceania.

Speaker 38 And that left us with the slim hope that Australia might scramble the bid at the 11th hour.

Speaker 9 But in reality, the process had been, it feels, gamed to ensure that Saudi Arabia were the sole bidder.

Speaker 23 Philippe, what do you make of the process?

Speaker 1 Oh, the process was a shocker because, in fact, I mean, you refer to the principle of rotation between confederations.

Speaker 1 And obviously, one big problem for having a Saudi World Cup was the fact that you had other confederations which qualified, and notably UEFA, Commbe Bol and CAF. So

Speaker 1 Europe, South America, and Africa. And the decision, which basically

Speaker 1 made sure that Saudi Arabia would get the 2034 World Cup, was when FIFA announced there would be one only unique candidacy for the 2030 World Cup, which would be the joint Spain, Portugal and Morocco bid.

Speaker 1 So that put two confederations out of the running for 2034, i.e. UEFA, Spain and Portugal, and Africa, CAF, because of Morocco.

Speaker 1 And then there was something very clever, let's put it that way, which happened, which is that FIFA decided, because it was the tournament that would be the 100th anniversary of the first World Cup, which took place in Uruguay.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 a few games were delocalized, so to speak, three games indeed, and were given, the first three games, to South America, to Uruguay. Argentina and Paraguay, if I'm not mistaken, Chile being left aside.

Speaker 1 But that meant that CONMEBOL, the South America, basically received some games and therefore was considered to have hosted,

Speaker 1 you know, little rabbit ears here, to have hosted a World Cup, which left only Asia and Oceania to compete. Oceania doesn't have the means to welcome a 48-team World Cup because this would be a 48

Speaker 1 Team World Cup. So this left Australia, which at one point was thinking of giving

Speaker 1 to having a bid, a joint bid with Singapore. The Asian Confederation moved in very quickly and said, well, no, we have one candidate, and this candidate is Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 1 Singapore, I think, were the first to say, no, we're not part, we're not going to bid against our brothers.

Speaker 1 And Australia, who had in mind to get the 2026 Women's Asian Cup and perhaps an edition of the Club World Cup, FIFA Club World Cup as well, decided to withdraw.

Speaker 1 So therefore, from that moment on, we knew that Saudi Arabia would get 2034.

Speaker 1 I mean, one thing which is quite extraordinary is that the Saudi declared their interest in hosting the 2034 World Cup only 81 minutes, max, after the decision of FIFA to award

Speaker 1 the 2030 World Cup to Spain, Portugal, and Morocco. I mean, it had been a stitched up, a stitch up.
We all knew this was going to happen.

Speaker 1 And I think the only thing which surprised us was the brazenness of the process.

Speaker 31 Nick, the Zoom presentation was bizarre, wasn't it?

Speaker 23 It's sort of like an enormous online celebrity squares.

Speaker 44 What did you make of that?

Speaker 7 And why do you think it was just done online like that?

Speaker 43 Yeah,

Speaker 43 you had different FA heads in their cars in some situations, just all watching on with their headphones in.

Speaker 43 It was a complete parody of what due process or scrutiny should be. And just

Speaker 43 something very concerning, and

Speaker 43 we can come on to the sort of responsibility of individual FAs, you know, to have said or done something. But

Speaker 43 I spoke to one or two,

Speaker 43 one or two of them European-based as well beforehand. And I'm saying, look, you can't be happy with how this is

Speaker 43 going to come across over Zoom. a vote through acclamation, a fait accompli, as we have said.
You can't really be happy with this process, even though I know you're going to nod it through.

Speaker 43 And the answer from a couple of these people was no we're really not happy a few of us are really unhappy about how this is going down but we're going to do it anyway and

Speaker 43 which make made the whole thing

Speaker 43 so hollow and vacuous to watch and yeah um total lack of scrutiny which is is a theme of modern day FIFA. I think they are very happy to avoid questions broadly from the media and people who might

Speaker 43 put

Speaker 43 this bid and other such things under

Speaker 43 the microscope and convening people in a place and in a room together where media and other organizations might be able to get in front of them and corner them and where they're on or off the record, ask questions, get words from them.

Speaker 43 It's not convenient for them now. So doing it online under the sort of husk of

Speaker 43 sustainability with saving on flights, this, that, and the other, was an absolute sham, and even more of a sham knowing that a lot of these people were waving, applauding, thumbs up, whatever, this whole fast through without believing in it for one moment, which I think is one of the most depressing things about all this.

Speaker 46 We sort of know why Saudi Arabia want to host the World Cup.

Speaker 41 Is this a sign then that they feel that what they've done in sport so far has achieved its purpose?

Speaker 45 The whole procedure has been engineered for Saudi Arabia to have an undemocratic win is really, I mean, it's just so shocking.

Speaker 45 And I mean, I'm not surprised, but I'm just surprised that everyone is not able to stop it. The Saudi authorities really are very proud of how this went.

Speaker 45 I mean, they're telling the world this is how we rule, and we've really managed to impose our way of seeing things, our way of ruling and our policies without anyone being able to say anything.

Speaker 45 And this is where I thought, okay, it's the beginning of a new era really.

Speaker 45 Going back to your question, I think that

Speaker 45 the premise of your question is to say that Saudi Arabia maybe

Speaker 45 has

Speaker 45 as a main goal when investing in sport to whitewash its human rights record or to rebrand itself.

Speaker 45 I tend to say that Saudi Arabia, as undemocratic and brutal the authorities are, I think that there is also

Speaker 45 a soft power strategy. And it's not necessarily about rebranding itself.

Speaker 45 But what we see is the consequences of everyone's silence is that Saudi Arabia really managed to

Speaker 45 embolden itself and cover up everything that's happening in the country. And it created a a bubble that is really far, far, far from the reality of what people live in Saudi Arabia.
I mean,

Speaker 45 Saudi Arabia, maybe just as a reminder, since Mohamed bin Salman came to power in 2016, more or less, it has turned into a police state, meaning that

Speaker 45 the beginning of the institutions that we've had have been completely dismantled. Mohammed bin Salman rules the country with a very strong, firm arm, and no one can contest anything, he says.

Speaker 45 And sports of, of course, plays a very important role in that. And the PIF specifically, I think, I mean, I invite everyone to read the new

Speaker 45 Human Rights Watch report called The Man Who Bought the World. And it really shows you how

Speaker 45 our sovereign fund has been completely restructured in order for Hamed bin Salman to have complete power over that.

Speaker 45 And so, to remind everyone, what is Saudi Arabia today?

Speaker 45 Saudi Arabia is a police state that is governed by Mohammed bin Salman himself, where people can get forcibly disappeared for tweets, where women have been tortured in prison, where this year actually we have broken the record of the number of executions

Speaker 45 and where free speech has been completely forbidden, or you can get arrested for saying barely anything, and you don't have any clear red lines.

Speaker 45 Given that everyone has accepted Saudi money unconditionally,

Speaker 45 it leads to whitewashing because no one speaks about the reality on the ground, because no one really wants to take the risk to speak about Saudi abuses, because everyone sees interest in accepting Saudi money.

Speaker 45 Then, what this leads to Mohammed bin Salman being empowered, This leads to the Saudi

Speaker 45 people's

Speaker 45 reality being veiled, covered, and then it also, you know,

Speaker 45 in the long term will have an effect on the rule of law for everyone in general. When I said that it's about the rule of law, it's about democratic principles, it's about

Speaker 45 fundamental freedoms that no one really

Speaker 45 seems to understand that they have the privilege of living. There's a UK, a British journalist who has been forbidden from entering a boxing match in the UK because he criticized the Saudi regime.

Speaker 45 And that boxing match was hosted and funded by the Saudi regime. So the extent to which the Saudi government is willing to go to silence people, to Muslim people, goes far beyond

Speaker 45 the

Speaker 45 Saudi borders. So this is where it gets really dangerous.

Speaker 45 Saudi Arabia shows everyone that they do not respect any kind of fundamental freedoms and that they don't care about their image anymore because everyone has accepted money unconditionally.

Speaker 45 So, again, it's not necessarily only about how Saudi people are suffering today. It's really about accepting for the rule of law to be dismantled through the investment of sports.

Speaker 37 Philippe, why do FIFA/slash Jenny and Petino want Saudi Arabia to have it?

Speaker 23 Is that just purely money?

Speaker 1 Yes, absolutely. I don't see any other reason or purpose for that.

Speaker 1 I think it's a meeting of minds when it comes to the ambitions of one country or one regime rather than one country and one organization. The links between FIFA and Saudi Arabia are extremely deep.

Speaker 1 But what is very interesting is how quickly it's happened, because you will remember that FIFA's favorite partner was Qatar up until the 2022 World Cup.

Speaker 1 And then it moved to Saudi, which of course is a bit of a, when you know a bit about geopolitics, Qatar and Saudi Arabia, perhaps being not the best of friends, is an interesting, shall we say,

Speaker 1 change of focus. But yes, like you see, you saw another example for the Club World Cup, which is happening in 2025, the extended Club World Cup taking place in the US in June and July.

Speaker 1 FIFA was really struggling to get, and is really struggling to get anybody interested in that. It just so happens that the broadcasting rights have been given to Dazone or DAZN.

Speaker 1 I mean, people say it in differently in different countries. And who is going to invest one billion into Dazzon?

Speaker 1 It's Saudi Arabia. And you could carry on like this.
Who is the biggest sponsor to have arrived on FIFA's doorstep recently? Saudi Aramco,

Speaker 1 of course, which is the oil producer, which happens, by the way, to be where a certain Yasser al-Roumayan, who is also the President of Newcastle, plays a very big role in there, as he plays a very big role in PIF.

Speaker 1 There's one thing I would like to add to that, because

Speaker 1 we shouldn't forget that this is something that the Saudis, I've been, the Saudi regime rather, has been implicated in not just over the last six months or two years.

Speaker 1 This is something which coincides with the way that MBS has taken over power. You will remember the 2017 bloodless coup, basically.
And since then, you've had people like

Speaker 1 Yasser Asmisre'al, who is the president of the Saudi Arabia Football Federation, traveling around the world signing memorandums of understanding with local football federations and confederations even, 48 in total,

Speaker 1 which is exactly an illustration of what Lina was talking about.

Speaker 1 You make people dependent on your money, and therefore afterwards nobody dares say anything against you. So some federations, all their money comes from FIFA.
FIFA wants money from the Saudis.

Speaker 1 It's a kind of vicious circle which is established here. At the same time, perhaps for these countries which are not directly dependent on FIFA money, what you use, you use sponsorship.

Speaker 1 There was a recent report by Play the Game, you know,

Speaker 1 the Danish organization, which identified 910 sponsorships, of which 194 were in football. So you feed money into the system, the sports system, and in football in particular.

Speaker 1 and you make people in a way dependent on you for their well for their financing. And FIFA does want to make more and more and more money.
Where is the money going to come from?

Speaker 1 Well, you've got a very willing customer here, which is Saudi Arabia. Let's go for them.

Speaker 1 It's it's so yes, the answer, it's a very long answer to come back to the very first word of my response, which is yes, from FIFA's angle and from the football world and from the sports world at large, it's his money.

Speaker 17 I think this is a great discussion to have uh and a great podcast to do, but I'm already getting a sense of deja vu, harking back to discussions we had in the build-up to Qatar.

Speaker 17 And in the build-up to the World Cup in Saudi Arabia, there'll be talk like this discussion we're having here about concerns over human rights abuses, LGBT plus rights, the weather, the football calendar, migrant workers, the treatment of women.

Speaker 17 But that's, I'm just worried that that's all it will be. It will be talk.

Speaker 17 And we'll still end up, if we're still kicking around in 10 years' time, watching that World Cup in Saudi Arabia, enjoying it and reporting on it.

Speaker 17 And

Speaker 17 the audience, the Football Weekly audience, I suspect we're already

Speaker 17 preaching to the choir. They already agree with us.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 17 I just wonder what we're doing here, apart from sort of ticking a box to say, oh, well, we've made our feelings clear. I'm not sure what else can be achieved.

Speaker 43 What we do have here is a 10-year run-up to hold feet to the fire. I think, you know,

Speaker 43 a lot of the Guardian's most important reporting pre-Qatar through the brilliant Pete Patterson,

Speaker 43 who literally followed coffins of workers back to Nepal to understand causes of death and how that has happened. It went countless times.

Speaker 43 I think we began most of that work from memory around 2013.

Speaker 43 So we've got 10 years now to ensure that, you know

Speaker 43 in some ways it's making the best of a shocking situation but and we've got a long time to be able to you know as media and as fans and as stakeholders in in football bring people together to work out how best to interrogate what is going on and 10 years it is a long time the world can change pretty quickly football changes all the time what will international football look like then so i think with 10 years we've got time to build quite a lot of momentum up in this discussion i know that's slightly abstract but it is a long time to be able to, you know, put forces behind it.

Speaker 45 I mean, we have 10 years,

Speaker 45 as has been said.

Speaker 45 And us Saudis, we don't have the privilege to say that it's only a ticking box game. We have to take every opportunity to speak about what's happening in our country.

Speaker 45 I mean, for us, it's not just speaking about women's rights or LGBT rights or

Speaker 45 any kind of minority group that are known to be repressed just as a general generality.

Speaker 45 It's about building up to that World Cup with concrete demands and our political prisoners are not just collateral damages to greedy ambitions or to

Speaker 45 such events.

Speaker 45 For us, they are a priority and we do hope that or I do hope that by participating in such a podcast, people will at least get to know some of our political prisoners and will call for the release of some of them.

Speaker 45 I mean, the Saudi authorities have not allowed any human rights organization on the ground since Mohammed bin Salman came to power.

Speaker 45 So I do hope that by 2034, at least some human rights organizations will be able to enter the country, document, advocate, visit political prisoners, you know, ask for their release.

Speaker 45 Some have been forcibly disappeared for years now. Since 2018, Abdurrahman As-Sadhan has been forcibly disappeared.

Speaker 45 So I do hope that by speaking about them, at least we will know about their whereabouts. I think that it's not really, I think we don't have the privilege and we should not just think that

Speaker 45 it's

Speaker 45 nonsense discussions, you know, and we have to have clear benchmarks on how the discussion goes.

Speaker 45 And I'll just repeat that our political prisoners should be a priority in these discussions. And you should all also be naming them when speaking about Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 46 And let's do that in part two.

Speaker 2 HiPod fans of America. Max here.
Barry's here too.

Speaker 1 Hello.

Speaker 3 Football Weekly is supported by the Remarkable Paper Pro.

Speaker 6 Now, if you're a regular listener to this show, you'll have heard us talk before about the Remarkable Paper Pro.

Speaker 12 We already know that Remarkable is the leader in the paper tablet category, digital notebooks that give you everything you love about paper, but with the power of modern technology.

Speaker 15 But there's something new and exciting.

Speaker 21 The remarkable paper paper pro move remarkable a brand name and an adjective man yeah it's their most portable paper tablet yet it holds all your notes to-dos and documents but it's smaller than a paperback and an incredible 0.26 inches thin so it slips easily into a bag or jacket pocket perfect for working professionals whose jobs take them out of the office like maybe a football journalist Barry although not like you

Speaker 13 a proper football journalist man exactly too much technology draws us in and shuts the world out this paper tablet doesn't.

Speaker 23 It'll never beat or buzz to try and grab your attention, so you can devote your focus to what or who is in front of you.

Speaker 13 It has a display that looks, feels, and even sounds like paper.

Speaker 14 Think and work like a writer, not a texter.

Speaker 25 And the battery performance is amazing.

Speaker 18 No worries about running out of power before the end of extra time.

Speaker 16 The Remarkable Paper Pro Move can keep going for up to two weeks.

Speaker 35 And if you do need to recharge, you can go from naught to 90% in less than 45 minutes, Barry.

Speaker 29 Fantastic.

Speaker 10 Why not give it a go for nothing?

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Speaker 32 If it's not what you're looking for, get your money back.

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Speaker 24 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly, and let's talk about human rights.

Speaker 32 And that does include women's rights, LGBTQ plus rights, workers' and migrant workers' rights, as well.

Speaker 38 And Lena, as you said, political prisoners.

Speaker 42 So so as you say, we want to talk about them, tell us about them.

Speaker 45 Yeah, just um maybe to start, um I would say that women's rights, uh, migrant workers' rights, LGBTQ

Speaker 45 rights, all of that are secondary, because first what we have to do is able be able to speak in Saudi Arabia, be able to be human rights defenders, and as long as people get imprisoned for the for demanding their basic rights, then we cannot speak about any other

Speaker 45 minorities.

Speaker 45 And so first, the priority is to release all political prisoners, including those who have been arrested and sentenced for tweeting. I mean, one case is Salmal Shihab.

Speaker 45 Salmal Shihab was sentenced to 27 years in prison. She just went on vacation in Saudi Arabia to visit her family, and they saw tweets of her where she was standing in solidarity with my sister.

Speaker 45 She is still in prison. Another case is Manahel Ratebi, sentenced to 11 years for speaking, for tweeting under feminist hashtags and for not wearing a baya, the black clothing.
So

Speaker 45 our prisons are full

Speaker 45 of people who have dared to speak their mind and who have advocated for a better country.

Speaker 45 The second thing that has to be known is, again, as I said,

Speaker 45 human rights organizations are not allowed on the ground. Trials are held behind closed doors, executions are held behind closed doors, so we don't know what's happening in the country.

Speaker 45 And in order to get information,

Speaker 45 us as human rights organizations, people have to take the risk either to flee the country with court documents and show them to us, or take the risk to speak inside.

Speaker 45 And we've lost so many of our sources who are now probably in prison. So it's a complete police state where everyone has been muzzled, and this has to be understood.
Now going to

Speaker 45 minorities or groups

Speaker 45 rights. When we speak about

Speaker 45 women's rights, I think that people in 2034, when people will go, they won't see the problem because Saudi Reborn really has managed to create a bubble inside the country where tourists and Western people mostly cannot see the violations.

Speaker 45 So for example, they've allowed women to drive, but no one could see that the women who have been leading the fight of women to drive were actually imprisoned, forcibly disappeared, and brutally tortured.

Speaker 45 Another example is that you can see women now in cafes, and you have mixed places, and

Speaker 45 women mostly can wear what they want, but again, it's not institutional. A policeman can consider a woman as being indecent and arrest her for that.

Speaker 45 And most of the women who get arrested for being indecent,

Speaker 45 quote unquote, are women from families that do not have the protection of their families because you still have the male guardianship system.

Speaker 45 As a woman, you are under the good will of your male guardian, who's your father or your husband.

Speaker 45 So, you know, Western people will be able to wear what they want in Saudi Arabia and not know that some women actually get arrested, imprisoned, and sentenced to decades in prison for believing that they can wear

Speaker 45 freely. Again, I think that also for LGBTQ people going to Saudi Arabia, they won't have any issue.
And this is really, I'm not saying that it's problematic that

Speaker 45 they'll be able

Speaker 45 to be free in Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 45 What I'm saying is that the double standards, you know, Saudi people get arrested for that, but for Saudi Arabia to get investment and because they know that it's a priority for Western people, then they would allow Western people to

Speaker 45 enjoy total freedom in Saudi Arabia while the Saudi people live a different reality.

Speaker 45 probably people will go back after 2034 saying that everything they heard about Saudi is wrong and that they were able to enjoy it fully and all of that but no one really sees what's happening in the country to locals to residents to citizens and this is where it's it's problematic because you know you also you know you have women I mean Georgina Christiano's uh girlfriend is um post her pictures of herself in bikinis i mean no saudi woman could do that without getting arrested um and so it it's they they've really created a bubble for uh for investments for western people to see while saudi arabia has not foundationally uh changed i don't know you know how to to really show you the the the dark and brutal reality of what the saudis live but it's it's not a happy one janiamfantino

Speaker 8 Social improvements, positive human rights impacts.

Speaker 10 The world will be watching, and it is positive that the unique spotlight of the World Cup is on what can and should be improved so that this can be addressed effectively and we can have real and lasting change.

Speaker 17 Barry. Very interesting that Lena says that, actually, because during the World Cup of Qatar,

Speaker 17 you would occasionally see social media posts or indeed articles from football writers who sort of went well I went for a jog at six o'clock in the morning and I didn't see anyone working in conditions hotter than the sun and any locals I encountered were smiling and happy so everything must be okay and even now we're seeing some UK journalists and it may well be happening in other countries who look like they're already getting their ducks in a row ahead of Saudi Arabia 2034 going, well,

Speaker 17 maybe it's not as sinister and bleak as it seems.

Speaker 17 Let's maybe give it a chance. It's quite depressing to see that happening.

Speaker 46 Nick, can we talk about workers' rights and migrant workers as well?

Speaker 39 You've written about the infrastructure because, you know, Saudi Arabia does have a football culture, which we'll get to.

Speaker 26 You know, there are studies there, but they are going to build a lot and that will involve a lot of, and a whole city that they're planning on building.

Speaker 32 And that will involve a lot of migrant workers.

Speaker 43 A big number to remember at this point is 21,000, which is the number of, I think it's Nepali, Indian and Bangladeshi workers that are already reported to have died in Saudi Arabia since its Grand Vision 2030 plan was launched, I think, eight eight years or so ago.

Speaker 43 So look,

Speaker 43 there is already, reportedly, a lot of blood on the country's hands from this from this big rebuild it's doing and as as we know i mean laughably given given the score that fifa gave saudi's bid um in its um feasibility report yeah they were given 419.8 out of 500 uh which is the same score for stadia uh in the usa um even though those stadia in the usa almost all exist which is crazy it's it's it's it's like reviewing a restaurant, but showing up, and they've actually got nothing on the menu yet.

Speaker 43 It's mad. And there's always going to be a bit of

Speaker 43 a leap of faith with such documents, obviously, because work has to be carried out. But this was egregious.
So you've got most of the stadiums not yet built, but very lavishly planned.

Speaker 43 A lot of it by companies with at least offices or presences in the UK, by the way. You've got an entire city, NEOM, which

Speaker 43 if listeners haven't heard about it, NEOM N-E-O-M, it's well worth looking up and seeing what the extravagant plan for a long, very thin line

Speaker 43 raised, I think, 300 meters above the ground, supposedly going for about 110 kilometers,

Speaker 43 looks like. I think plans for that have already had to be scaled back to some extent.
And this is going to take a lot of work. It's going to take tens and hundreds of thousands of workers.

Speaker 43 It is already. And we've seen the human cost in Qatar.
That's been written about at length. We've seen how reparations to those workers, by the way, have not been made by FIFA.

Speaker 43 We see no guarantee that that will be made at this time at all. And we don't see any obvious concrete...
pledge or fix that this is not going to happen again.

Speaker 43 Workers working in really bleak, searingly hot conditions, working far longer hours

Speaker 43 than they should, often physically unprepared for this kind of work as well. There's just

Speaker 43 nobody who can guarantee you that tens of thousands of people are not going to die in an adjacent way to the construction of this tournament. And even during it, I mean,

Speaker 43 I don't know if this is a directly related point or not, but a few hours after the Argentina versus Netherlands World Cup quarter-final in Doha, a Kenyan worker died falling off a stadium, off Lusao Stadium.

Speaker 43 And it was written about, but not seen as a huge, huge deal. And, you know, I don't think it's appropriate to go into reasons or causes or anything like that, but you can look at that.

Speaker 43 and make your own conclusions. This was happening in Qatar in front of our eyes.
That is happening in front of our eyes on our watch. And

Speaker 43 there's absolutely no mechanism that I have seen

Speaker 43 that convinces me that it won't happen again.

Speaker 46 Saudi Arabia says it maintains robust regulations and standards to safeguard workers' rights and that thorough investigations are conducted into all workplace incidents.

Speaker 46 Suggestions of negligence or lack of transparency are unfounded, it added. Lena, you wanted to come in?

Speaker 45 So, basically, NEOM, when MBS talks about NEOM, he says that it's a new mega-city project that is built on virgin lands, that no one was

Speaker 45 living there, and so forth, and so on.

Speaker 45 But actually, you have villages where people have been there for hundreds and hundreds of years, and they have been brutally displaced.

Speaker 45 And the ones who have refused to leave their houses were actually arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned. Five are on death row for having refused to leave their houses.

Speaker 45 So Saudis are actually going to have their heads cut

Speaker 45 because they refuse to leave their houses to make a way for a city that will be hosting the World Cup. It goes, you know, it's as horrible as that.
And I think that it has to be reminded to everyone.

Speaker 45 And of course, we also monitored

Speaker 45 a migrant worker's death while working on NEOM and the issue again is about the

Speaker 45 opacity and the lack of transparency in all of these procedures. The brother has contacted us and he has no way to find out how his brother died.

Speaker 45 And when the Saudi authorities respond saying that everything has been investigated and there are no

Speaker 45 that all deaths are normal or however

Speaker 45 they say that, the main question is why are not independent monitors allowed on the ground? Why is it always the Saudi authorities investigating?

Speaker 45 Why is it always the Saudi authorities giving the response?

Speaker 45 So allow the UN special rapporteurs to be on the ground, allow human rights organizations to document things, and then we might say that there is the beginning of transparency and maybe we might trust the Saudi authorities' responses.

Speaker 45 But as long as everything is close to independent monitors, then we cannot say that anything said by the Saudi authorities can be trusted, really.

Speaker 33 All right, that will do for part two.

Speaker 38 And part three, we'll talk about the responsibility of FAs, the responsibility of fans, and any other business as well.

Speaker 2 HiPod fans of America, Max here. Barry's here, too.

Speaker 1 Hello.

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Speaker 8 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 7 A question from Pepsi that says, I can't quite decide if I have a right to be annoyed about Saudi hosting the World Cup or whether I'm being an arrogant Westerner.

Speaker 31 It seems slightly different from Qatar, as at least Saudi have some footballing World Cup history.

Speaker 40 He says, and I assume more infrastructure to host the competition than Qatar did.

Speaker 7 We covered how much work they have to do on that.

Speaker 42 But I still feel uneasy about it with the whole sportswashing thing.

Speaker 44 Am I correct too?

Speaker 33 In theory, Saudi should have the same right to host as the USA.

Speaker 13 So why does it feel different?

Speaker 7 And Lina, there is a very frequent criticism that we will get after this podcast, that when we bring up these issues, we might call for boycotts, but we we don't boycott ourselves.

Speaker 46 The newspaper doesn't boycott it.

Speaker 42 Once the football starts, we watch the games. Once the World Cup finishes, we forget about it.

Speaker 24 And a lot of that is practical, right?

Speaker 12 The news cycle moves on, the season starts.

Speaker 38 But I wonder what you think is the correct response to the criticism, in many ways, also the criticism that it's a kind of anti-Arab thing that we are doing.

Speaker 6 It is racist to talk about this.

Speaker 45 Yeah, that's an excellent point. And I think it's very timely.
And we need to speak about this.

Speaker 45 When we criticize the Saudi authorities on their human rights abuses, it's because the Saudi people

Speaker 45 cannot speak for themselves. And when we say that

Speaker 45 we should not be speaking about Saudi Arabia because it's a different culture, it's a different tradition and all of this,

Speaker 45 we have to be reminded that the Saudi people live under a brutal dictatorship.

Speaker 45 That people cannot, I mean, give me one example, just one example of one person who has said anything close to criticism of the Saudi authorities or the Saudi regime that are not in prison.

Speaker 45 Everyone is in prison. Our prisons are full.
So the Saudi authorities have really managed to

Speaker 45 to gaslight everyone for criticizing their human rights abuses. And I always give this example.
So what are what is Saudi culture? What is Saudi tradition? I mean, human rights are for everyone.

Speaker 45 When we say that

Speaker 45 we should respect

Speaker 45 the Saudis because it's a different tradition or different culture, I mean, it's not part of our culture to be repressive. It's not part of our culture

Speaker 45 not to respect women. It's not part of our culture.

Speaker 45 We cannot say that we have a culture when people have not been able to elaborate and develop this culture. It's always a state-imposed one.
And I always give this example to really

Speaker 45 illustrate what I want to say so uh the saudi authorities when when women were not allowed to drive they would always say yeah but the saudi people it's the saudi people's culture people are not ready for women to drive um and that you know the majority of the saudis are not ready for women to drive and then all of a sudden mbs arrives and he allows women to drive and all of a sudden everyone repeats the same state-sponsored narrative that oh wow 80 of the people were are happy about mbs because he finally allowed women to drive.

Speaker 45 So who are these Saudis? You know, are they the ones who have been, you know, for years not been okay with women driving? Or are these 80%

Speaker 45 very happy of women now being able to drive and this opening of the country? So like saying that you don't want to engage with Saudi Arabia or

Speaker 45 really condemn the human rights abuses because

Speaker 45 it's racist or whatever, it does not make any sense. I mean, you would be seen less racist talking about our political prisoners saying that MBS does not actually represent Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 45 When you stay silent and accept Saudi money and accept to go to Saudi Arabia, you're only greenlighting the policies of MBS and giving us even more

Speaker 45 harder time

Speaker 45 advocating for our fundamental freedoms.

Speaker 45 So there is nothing racist about saying that Saudi Arabia is problematic. It is MBS.
It's not the Saudis. It's not the Saudi state.
It's MBS himself, really.

Speaker 41 And Lina, following up on what you just said, the money goes to lots of different places.

Speaker 26 Lots of people, as we've established, now rely on this money.

Speaker 6 What do you say to people

Speaker 41 who choose to take money from the Saudi state?

Speaker 31 Be it a footballer or a broadcaster.

Speaker 45 or you know someone who's going to build a stadium or whatever i i i i'm fascinated to know i don't want saudi arabia to be boycotted i mean i I don't want it to be embargoed. I don't want sanctions.

Speaker 45 I don't want all of that. I mean, my people deserve life.
They deserve also to enjoy everything everyone else enjoys.

Speaker 45 The only issue is that when we accept Saudi money, we usually do it unconditionally.

Speaker 45 So, everyone telling me that, you know, Lina, you're being too harsh and that you have to build bridges and Saudi has to open up to the world in order to change, which is completely true, but I have not seen one person accept Saudi money and willing to raise their voice on what's happening.

Speaker 45 I have not seen one person accept Saudi money and at the same time talk about our political prisoners. So what we see is that Saudi money actually is always conditioned to silence.

Speaker 45 And this is where it's problematic. So if you do accept Saudi money and in exchange, you know, allow yourself to be silenced in face of all of that, then you're really being complicit.
It's really

Speaker 45 feeding a monster that will one day be unstoppable.

Speaker 1 A very important important part of this is that the criticism should also be directed at the Western companies. And that's not orientalizing that.

Speaker 1 To say that the building constructors, to say that the people who are providing their know-how, their expertise to the building of those stadiums and this infrastructure are mostly coming from Western countries.

Speaker 1 So those companies have got to be put in front of their own responsibilities. And it's what a battery.
I mean, it always ends up with what a battery.

Speaker 1 Why are you not talking about the US? Well, Max, we will be talking about the US, won't we? And we'll be talking about Mexico and Canada. And we'll be talking about Morocco, for example.

Speaker 1 I've never quite understood this argument, I must say, because, again, we've said it again and again, and I think Nick will probably can talk about this, but we could enjoy the fact that Saudi Arabia beat Argentina and Qatar.

Speaker 1 And we did,

Speaker 1 because that team represents not the regime, but the Saudi people.

Speaker 1 And it was, I would imagine, a a huge explosion of joy from everybody there and genuine joy, sporting joy, which should be celebrated. There is no contradiction in those two.

Speaker 1 It's this strange ambivalence that we have to have with sport in the 21st century when the interests of so many different people and

Speaker 1 such different interests are intertwined to such an extent that we find ourselves saying, Should I celebrate this goal by a Saudi player? Well, of course you should.

Speaker 1 Should I criticize the Saudi regime? Well, of course you should. Should I criticize the companies which are building the stadium? Of course you should.

Speaker 1 Should you criticize those reporters who are starting,

Speaker 1 we won't name names, but who are starting already to be nuanced, as they call it, about what is going on?

Speaker 1 Should we be also, I mean, maybe we can touch on that as well, be completely blind to the environmental impact of this World Cup, which is another aspect of it which is very problematic.

Speaker 1 And it's which Western companies have got a big, big role to play. Whichever way you look at it, you're trying to find ways to silence yourself.

Speaker 1 And by silencing yourself, you're causing harm to the people who are suffering.

Speaker 17 Lina spoke very eloquently there about people who take Saudi money and then stay silent. But a lot of them don't stay silent.

Speaker 17 Some of them, and I'm looking at boxing here, actively become cheerleaders for the Saudi regime. And that's very worrying.
And if boxing is doing that, I certainly can see football following suit.

Speaker 38 It is worth saying the Norwegian Football Federation president has spoken up.

Speaker 46 The only person in any footballing authority attempting to hold Infantino FIFA to account.

Speaker 42 Lisa Klavnes.

Speaker 36 The Norwegian FA have refused to endorse the bid.

Speaker 39 The Swiss FA did endorse the bid but called for independent human rights monitoring.

Speaker 46 The English FA chose not to abstain or vote against.

Speaker 46 Germany's National Football Association announced it would vote in favour of both the Saudi Arabia bid and the multination multi-nation bid for 2030.

Speaker 4 What do we mean?

Speaker 28 It feels Nick brave of the Norwegian FA, especially to do it alone.

Speaker 43 Yeah,

Speaker 43 they have a track record of

Speaker 43 taking the right kind of stand. Lisa Klavnes is definitely not unhappy to ruffle feathers where they need to be ruffled.
And I think those people expect it of her as well.

Speaker 43 So I don't think it was a surprise to too many people who've studied these things closely that it was Norway who came out and

Speaker 43 went on record and asked for their objections to be read out.

Speaker 43 I think it was

Speaker 43 by Impatino's number two, Matthias Grofstrom,

Speaker 43 in the

Speaker 43 sham that happened last week. So, I think the fact it was Norway themselves is

Speaker 43 no big surprise. The really depressing thing is that it was just them and a bit of Switzerland.
And it goes back to what I said at the top, which was that

Speaker 43 there were a lot of people doing this who knew that what they were doing or what they were nodding through was not being done with good process or even with great intentions.

Speaker 43 The vast majority of FAs kept kept quiet and it is a disgrace for many, many reasons. And there's a lot of very compromised people in football now.

Speaker 15 I suppose to counter that, you'd say, what can we expect of FAs?

Speaker 46 You know, our government is there trying to do,

Speaker 46 you know, big fight business over there.

Speaker 32 Like,

Speaker 46 do we hold our FAs to a higher account than them?

Speaker 1 Of course. There's one thing that governments are forced to have real politic.

Speaker 1 They have no choice but to engage with everybody. Channels are open even to your worst enemies.

Speaker 1 That's the fact of life. It's always been like this.
It always be like this. This is different.

Speaker 1 This is a decision taken by sport, by football in this particular case, to choose that particular country, that particular regime, and in complete,

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 ignoring every single rule of transparency and accountability, this is completely different. I mean, we cannot,

Speaker 1 the argument will go, oh, well, look, like Sir K. Starmer met with a Saudi representative or a minister and so forth.

Speaker 1 Well, so therefore, you know, it's quite normal if our sporting organizations want to engage with the Saudis. Well, no, it's not.
It's not at all.

Speaker 1 It's especially not at all since FIFA is supposed to be

Speaker 1 an association of associations. And

Speaker 1 it no longer is the case.

Speaker 1 And in some cases, you can understand why some countries, which entirely depend on FIFA's largest to survive in terms of football administration, that is, will not bite the hand that feeds them.

Speaker 1 It's not particular glorious or something to take pride in, but you can understand it. In the case of the FA, for example,

Speaker 1 there's been a complete lack of responsibility here. It's just that some weasel words were said.

Speaker 1 I think there was a kind of statement in which they said that they had met with the Saudi organized bidding committee and that assurances had been given, and that was okay. That's as far as it went.

Speaker 1 These federations, these member associations, do not depend on FIFA's money to survive. The FA is rich, wealthy.

Speaker 1 The French FA is exactly the same, but they still went along with it because they're thinking beyond that, okay, I want to be in FIFA's good books because I might want to buy for the 2038 World Cup, for example, something, you know, things like that.

Speaker 1 But this is completely different from governments having to deal with each other because

Speaker 1 you cannot live in isolation. You know, you cannot live in isolation.

Speaker 7 There is a real football culture in Saudi.

Speaker 8 People in Saudi Arabia will love the World Cup when it happens.

Speaker 42 People in the Middle East and Asia love the World Cup in Qatar.

Speaker 4 Do you think we should boycott it?

Speaker 13 Do you think, what should people listening to this do?

Speaker 45 It's a very difficult

Speaker 45 question.

Speaker 45 I mean, I am abroad and I don't think I should prevent my people from anything I would be enjoying here.

Speaker 45 The thing is, I do hope that with people engaging, whether going to Saudi or watching it here or commenting on it online, would have the victims of the Saudi regime in their mind.

Speaker 45 And one thing to do is really, I mean, do not boycott if you don't want to boycott, but if you boycott, don't say it's me.

Speaker 45 If you do watch it,

Speaker 45 please, I mean, talk about my sister, you know, ask why Lugjain is still on a travel ban.

Speaker 45 I mean, you'll be going to Saudi Arabia in 2034, not knowing that maybe the people next to you are on a travel ban, not being able to leave the country because they've tweeted something critical of the regime.

Speaker 45 So you do not, you know, you know, you cannot just go enjoy the freedoms that have been granted by MBS to you and just to leave and then applaud what MBS has done without, you know, giving any kind of

Speaker 45 word or you know sentiment to the people inside. So tweet about the victims of the regime, ask for the end of the executions.
I promise you, it does bring change and the Saudi authorities feel obliged

Speaker 45 to take responsibility in some of the cases.

Speaker 45 So, do not forget us and do not think that the Saudi authorities are the Saudi people. And because there is a splashy event in Saudi Arabia, it does not mean that

Speaker 45 the Saudis are enjoying a daily life with full freedom.

Speaker 45 Again, our political prisoners should be a priority during the next 10 years.

Speaker 43 And just to a point that was made then and earlier about the importance of putting this event under the microscope and the real world consequences if we don't.

Speaker 43 I look back at Russia 2018,

Speaker 43 which,

Speaker 43 with some very honourable exceptions, by the way, was, I think, a bit of a failure in journalism.

Speaker 43 And I count myself in this, by the way, as well, in terms of going out there, not really acknowledging enough what was already happening and had already been happening from Putin in Crimea and Madonbas, and going out there and

Speaker 43 basically

Speaker 43 reporting on and enjoying the football and not really holding or seeing what was about to come and holding it to scrutiny. Now, we all know what has happened since then.

Speaker 43 And we all know that if you are European and other parts of the world too, what has happened since then, the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, has directly affected you in some way.

Speaker 43 And I'm not saying that, you know, more extensive reporting around the World Cup would have stopped that, but it could have made a difference.

Speaker 43 It could definitely have caused a bit more outcry, a bit more publicity, a bit more context behind why this World Cup was being held and why it was important to Putin and Russia. So, I think

Speaker 43 maybe

Speaker 43 the same applies here, and I think hopefully, as media, we're a bit more prepared this time, especially after Qatar,

Speaker 43 to be able to have a run-up and do this properly. I remember the day after the final in Qatar,

Speaker 43 I'd covered the Messi Mbappe final, fantastic game, everyone's high on football. But the next day, I went to a workers' camp just about 20 miles away, just outside Doha, wrote about it.

Speaker 43 And I can remember every second of that day. I can remember barely anything about what happened the day before in the final.
Genuinely, I'm not exaggerating. I'm not kidding.

Speaker 43 Wonderful, best World Cup final ever, but I can tell you every single word that those guys

Speaker 43 said to me the next day. And that has stuck with me very much.
And I think personally and I think collectively, we're hopefully a bit better prepared now after the lessons of the last two World Cups

Speaker 43 to be able to do this properly as media and as a football community.

Speaker 44 Lina, final word from you, please.

Speaker 45 Maybe just to say, so I can't go to Saudi Arabia now because it's too risky. And many of the diaspora cannot go back either.

Speaker 45 And the idea is to build up a coalition of fans during the next ten years who would be willing to

Speaker 45 take responsibility and engage with us and

Speaker 45 create a kind of a safe circle where they would be

Speaker 45 engaging with us and flying to Saudi Arabia with us in ten years. So anyone

Speaker 45 thinking of going to Saudi in ten years for the twenty thirty four World Cup and willing also to take responsibility and

Speaker 45 helping us go back home.

Speaker 45 I'm happy to engage with you directly. Please feel free to reach out to us and we can work all together.

Speaker 38 Thank you so much.

Speaker 41 Thanks so much, everyone, for doing this. Thank you, Nick.

Speaker 43 Thank you.

Speaker 26 Thanks, Baz.

Speaker 17 Thank you.

Speaker 42 Thank you, Philippe.

Speaker 1 Thank you very much, Max.

Speaker 38 And especially, Nick, thanks so much for your time.

Speaker 45 Thank you, Max. Thanks, everyone.

Speaker 7 Purple Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Speaker 41 Our executive producer is Danielle Stevens.

Speaker 1 This is the Guardian.