Amorim arrives as Guardiola extends stay in Manchester – Football Weekly Extra podcast

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Speaker 8 Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. The Premier League returns, and Pep Guardiola is rewarded for his worst ever run as manager by getting another year.

Speaker 8 Granted, he's been not too bad in the previous 486 games. Spurs go to the Etty Head, just destined to get absolutely walloped, or will they?

Speaker 8 Probably, if it happens, they'll have more defeats than win this season. With Johnny Lou right all along, we'll ask him about Ange, and then to Ruben Amarin's opener away at Ipswich.

Speaker 8 A nice one to start, or a recipe for disaster. Lots of United players are saying how much fun they're having.
You would, wouldn't you? But who will play wing back? Leaders Liverpool go to Southampton.

Speaker 8 The stats suggesting most sellers getting better with age. Chelsea go to Leicester in the Kiern and Dewsbury Hall Derby.
Arsenal hosts Nottingham Forest.

Speaker 8 Can Jonathan Wilson RIP are mentioned yet again? While Bournemouth-Brighton might be the best game of the weekend. We'll look at to everything else, answer your questions.

Speaker 8 And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

Speaker 8 Dan says, elite panel that wouldn't look out of place on University Challenge.

Speaker 7 I'm not suggesting anything, Barry, but I think you'd be the one on the end.

Speaker 1 Welcome, boy. That's fair enough.

Speaker 1 Jonathan Wilson, hello?

Speaker 9 Well, when I was on University Challenge, I was the one on the end. So I was slightly insulted by that, but at least I'm here for once.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 8 No, that's true. How did you get on?

Speaker 9 We lost in the

Speaker 9 only in the third round.

Speaker 8 Ah, robbed. Johnny Lou, welcome.
I mean, you don't do quiz games where you've got other people with teammates. You do it all alone, don't you?

Speaker 6 Yeah, I've been on two quiz shows, which is

Speaker 6 well countdown, which is not really a quiz show. I was on a Dominic Diamond sports call as a teenager in the late 90s, and I won some Cricket World Cup tickets.

Speaker 8 Did you win? So you won the whole thing?

Speaker 6 Oh, well, it was just me against some other kids. And

Speaker 6 the answer was in true office quiz told the Tempest.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 8 I won two tickets to India New Zealand at Trent Bridge.

Speaker 1 And did the guy you beat challenge you to throw a kettle or a pub

Speaker 1 afterwards?

Speaker 8 Anyway, Moonlight Hanger says it's being reported that Peps agreed a new deal with City.

Speaker 8 Is this the first time a manager whose team have a worse form over the last five games and San Marino has been offered a new contract?

Speaker 8 Rob says, should we congratulate Man City on six in a row after Peps contract renewal?

Speaker 8 So he's signed for another year. What do you make of it, Wilson?

Speaker 9 I was surprised by the timing of it.

Speaker 9 I thought we were waiting to find out or he was waiting to find out what happened with the charges and people seem to be reading a lot into that that that city or he have some sense of of what the outcome of of that's going to be I'm not not sure about that I'm not really sure how how that would work

Speaker 9 but possibly they've they've got wind of how things are going or they've got a sense of how how the hearing's going I mean I sort of

Speaker 9 I also, although I'm slightly surprised by the timing, I also think we sort of expected this from the moment that Amarim went to United.

Speaker 9 That I, although City denied it, I think the suggestion was that

Speaker 9 Viana, Hugo Viana, who's coming in as a sporting director at City,

Speaker 9 that he would have appointed Amarim, but Guadiela is still going to be there, so the job wasn't there for Amarim, so Amarim then decided he would take another offer. I think it's great for City.

Speaker 9 I think it's probably very good for the Premier League if City is still in it.

Speaker 9 But yeah, he's the best manager in the world, and it's great to have him in our league.

Speaker 8 It's interesting there is no sort of relegation clause, Johnny.

Speaker 8 Because I mean, I think a lot of neutrals would love to see Pep, you know, at Rotherham away or Stephen Edgeway or insert whichever EFL club you want away.

Speaker 6 Yeah, City have been pretty proactively briefing this around that, you know, there is no relegation clause. This isn't,

Speaker 6 you know, there isn't some sort of parachute in case the Premier League hearing goes against them.

Speaker 6 In terms of the timing, I think it's worth I guess it's just worth pointing out that everything at Citi right now seems to be kind of based around this hearing and how it's going to go.

Speaker 6 It's, I think, directing all their thinking at the moment. It's preoccupying a lot of it.
So

Speaker 6 there is an element of, I guess, almost defiance in terms of the timing of this. You'll note that it's agreed to sign rather than signed.
So there is still a little bit of wiggle room there.

Speaker 6 So I think the messaging is very much quite important there. It's basically saying, well, if we're going down, which we're not,

Speaker 6 this guy is going down on the ship with us, which we are not. But, you know, he's often said in the past that

Speaker 6 he will walk if he feels that he's been lied to. But I think this shows he's very much tied to

Speaker 6 his fate to the club, whatever happens to it. I mean, the other point worth making is where would he go? What would Guardiola do next?

Speaker 6 There isn't really a comparable city-sized club that he could realistically go to.

Speaker 6 So I think when he's been considering his options, as I suppose he must have done, there are very few jobs out there where that I think he would realistically be a fit for.

Speaker 8 Interesting, Barry, that Wilson said it. It's good for the Premier League.

Speaker 1 Do you think it is? Yeah, I was a little bit surprised Wilson said that. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I suppose it's good for the Premier League insofar as he's arguably the best manager in the world, and it's good for the Premier League to have the best manager of the world managing in it.

Speaker 1 Is it good for the Premier League if City keep winning the Premier League under Pep?

Speaker 1 Probably not.

Speaker 1 And I think most people who aren't City fans and have no particular inclination to see them repeatedly win the league year after year are probably quite disappointed that Pep is

Speaker 1 probably going to stay on. I mean, there's no guarantee the way they're going at the moment, there's no guarantee they will win it.
Liverpool are favourites.

Speaker 1 Liverpool look like the league is theirs to lose. And

Speaker 1 I,

Speaker 1 despite what you said in your intro, I don't think there's any guarantee City will beat Spurs at the weekend because I think this is very much the kind of game Spurs could well win after losing at home to Ipswich last time out.

Speaker 8 Yeah, it does make this game really fascinating, but also even more fascinating since

Speaker 8 it would be City's fifth defeat in a row. But similarly, Posta Koglu is under pressure.

Speaker 8 And as I said, if they lose this game, which odds are they do, then they've lost more games than they've won this season.

Speaker 9 This sort of inconsistency, I think, in this first season you could accept. But by this point, you'd hope to sort of see them a clearer pattern and they wouldn't have these

Speaker 9 extraordinary sort of swings of performance. I mean, I was at the game where they lost to Palace, and they were really poor in that game, like really dreadful.

Speaker 9 That wasn't an unlucky defeat. They just

Speaker 9 they were awful that game. They sort of were were just overwhelmed in midfield.
There was no sort of sense of fight there. And yet, as Barry says, you know, their record against City is very good.

Speaker 9 They've beaten them already this season, albeit in the Carabao Cup with

Speaker 9 weakened teams or much changed teams on both sides.

Speaker 9 They got a draw in this game.

Speaker 9 Last season,

Speaker 9 ridiculously frenetic match of 3-3.

Speaker 8 So, yeah, City should win it. But at the minute,

Speaker 9 I don't really trust City. You obviously don't trust Spurs, but you don't trust Spurs on either side of the equation.
They could be really good.

Speaker 9 And I think the sort of game where there is space in behind the opposition opposition for them to attack that really suits them. So, I mean, yeah, possibly under pressure.

Speaker 9 There's certainly

Speaker 9 maybe the better phrase is that the discontent is mounting and you don't want to add more fuel to that.

Speaker 9 I'm not sure a defeated city necessarily would, but there comes a point at which Spurs have to look like they're going to finish top five or top six.

Speaker 9 People in charge there will start to think, you know, is there something we need to do to correct this?

Speaker 8 Johnny, um, your thoughts on and

Speaker 8 currently?

Speaker 6 The inconsistency is obviously a major problem. Sorry, I just had to

Speaker 6 run out of batteries, so I had to go plug in.

Speaker 8 No, that's okay.

Speaker 8 Reminds me of the time I was interviewing David Schwimmer from Friends, and the portable device I had was running out of batteries, and we had to run down a hotel lobby to plug it in underneath an armchair.

Speaker 8 He was very accommodating, so you know, if David Schwimmer is accommodating, I will be accommodating. Do carry on, Johnny.

Speaker 9 Could that be any more awkward?

Speaker 6 So, the inconsistency is a huge issue. And I think this is as much of a psychological problem as is a tactical problem.

Speaker 6 Spurs just don't seem to be able to put together two or three good performances in a row.

Speaker 6 So, you know, you beat City in the League Cup, and then, you know, you lose to Ipswich, you lose to Galatasarai in the Europa League.

Speaker 6 And I think that is very much an And problem because it's his job, obviously, to get them consistent.

Speaker 6 It's his job to cut out the sort of the brain fade, you know, that we see in defence, whether it's defending a counter-attack or it's set pieces, they can't seem to stop crosses coming into the box.

Speaker 6 All of that is on the coach. And I don't excuse, I don't exonerate the players 100% from that either.
But it is, you know, the buck ultimately stops with him.

Speaker 6 And, you know, this is exactly the sort of statement fixture that Poster Cogno has actually done pretty well.

Speaker 6 at getting Spurs up for. You know, you think of the 3-0 winner Old Trafford, which is one of the best performances, I think, by any club this season, all beating City at home.

Speaker 6 He does seem to be able to get them up for these big occasions. It's the stuff in between that he seems to have a problem with.

Speaker 8 Just back to City quickly, because I think it's probably worth asking, and I haven't yet, is do you think Pep staying

Speaker 8 makes a huge difference to the form that we've seen, Wilson?

Speaker 9 Oh, I don't know, possibly. I mean, I think the uncertainty around the club to do with the Chargers definitely

Speaker 9 has had some kind of impact on them.

Speaker 9 It has to be unsettling. And these things don't have to be direct.
I mean, whether players are actually sitting in the dressing room going through

Speaker 9 exactly what associated party transaction regulations are, I doubt. But just that sense of things not being quite right,

Speaker 9 things being slightly insecure, I think that does or can feed into a dressing room.

Speaker 9 Whether the knowledge that Guadiel will be the coach next season helps to

Speaker 9 pour oil on those choppy waters. Maybe it does, I don't know.
But I don't think there's any sense of Godhill as a lame duck of players sort of. Downing tools.
Downing tools. Yeah.

Speaker 9 I think the more fundamental problem is Rodri's not there and he's essential to them. And they've got a couple of other

Speaker 9 injuries as well. And a couple of players haven't come back from a summer in particularly good form.

Speaker 9 So, yeah,

Speaker 9 it might sort of symbolically be a reset that gets everybody going again.

Speaker 9 But equally, that might just be the international break, and everybody can sort of take a step back and recompose themselves and and go again.

Speaker 1 I'm not sure if we discussed it or mentioned it even but Spurs will be without Rodrigo Bentoncourt now who starts his quite what is it six seven game ban seven game seven game ban he will be um

Speaker 8 quite a big miss for them I would imagine yeah he's started a lot of games under Postacoglu yeah he he's uh the FA announced on Monday that he'd serve a seven game ban covering six Premier League games Carabao Cup quarterfinal was charged with misconduct in September.

Speaker 8 Over a TV interview he gave in his home country of Uruguay in June with reference to Sun's race making an aggravated breach. Bentica was asked to provide a shirt belonging to a Spurs player.

Speaker 8 Sonny's, he replied, it could be Sonny's cousin too, as they all look the same. Spurs released a statement on Wednesday confirming their intention to appeal.

Speaker 8 While we accept the guilty finding against Rodrigo by the Independent Regulatory Commission, we believe the subsequent sanction is severe. Johnny, do you think they should have just let it be?

Speaker 8 Do you think this appeal is, you know, you can't, on one hand, say, yes, we understand, and then say, actually, we're appealing.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean, I think the optics of this are really bad. I mean, doubly so for Spurs, in that initially, they basically tried to sweep it under the carpet.

Speaker 6 The implication being, there is no problem, move on, there's nothing to see here. And I think that that is the wrong way to address racism

Speaker 6 as an institution. And I think now the fact that you are...

Speaker 6 uh you're appealing the ban a ban which i think just just taking the temperature off social media a lot of fans I think are basically fine with.

Speaker 6 You know, I think Spurs fans are essentially saying, okay, this is a real drag because Benjamin is a really important player in midfield, and we, you know, he's a linchpin, and it's going to be a real drag to miss him for all those games.

Speaker 6 But there has to be a proper punishment for this kind of thing.

Speaker 6 And because it's, if we talk about education, this is actually an exemplary punishment, is one of the ways that you are going to get through to players and other people in the game that this kind of casually thrown around language perpetuates really terrible stereotypes about East East Asian people.

Speaker 6 And yeah, so

Speaker 6 it is a real blow for Spurs, but they have, I think, reacted to it.

Speaker 6 They have compounded the issue, I think, in the way that they've tried to respond to it.

Speaker 8 Kick it out says there's been a rise in both incidents of racism towards East and Southeast Asian players.

Speaker 8 There were 395 reports of player-targeted racist abuse in stadiums and online to kick it out in the 2023-24 season up from 277 in 2022-23.

Speaker 8 55% of those reports of racism aimed at specific specific players last season were towards those from an East Asian background.

Speaker 8 Of the 937 player-specific abuse reports to kick it out in the past five full seasons, 327 of them have been directed at just seven East and Southeast Asian players.

Speaker 8 I just wondered, Jody, as someone who has experienced this exact racism, does it sometimes feel that there's a sort of

Speaker 8 stratification of racism, a hierarchy of racism?

Speaker 8 Some is more acceptable than others, if that's the right way of phrasing it.

Speaker 6 No, I think that's right. I mean, it's kind of a blunt way of putting it, you know, without wishing to get all sort of David Bedeal about this, but

Speaker 6 there definitely appears to be more accepted. It is less socially unacceptable, I think, to make really good casual, casual jokes about East Asian people.

Speaker 6 I remember, like, this is this is going about 10 years now, but when I was on Countdown, you know, everyone was saying, oh, well,

Speaker 6 no wonder he's good at maths.

Speaker 6 No wonder the Asian guy is good at maths, which is hard to rebut because I am actually very good at maths.

Speaker 1 It's just, you know,

Speaker 6 in the

Speaker 6 the specific point was actually true, but the generalization, the extrapolation drawn from it

Speaker 6 was problematic. So, yeah, it's a tough one.

Speaker 6 It's not something

Speaker 6 that preoccupies me overly. I still feel that

Speaker 6 my experience is very, very different from other people in the UK who

Speaker 6 I think experience much worse structural racism and it kind of affects all different parts of their lives.

Speaker 6 For me, it's really just, you know, you get the occasional comment, you know, people just sort of blurt things out in the street or whatever, or the occasional lazy stereotype.

Speaker 6 And, you know, that doesn't, you know, affect my life negatively in a material way, but it is really annoying.

Speaker 8 Sure. All right.
Well, that'll do for part one. Part two, we'll begin with Ruben Amarin and his debut as he takes charge of Manchester United Absolute Town.

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Speaker 8 Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Ruben Amarim takes charge of Manchester United for the first time at Portman Road.

Speaker 8 United fans have been poring over a seven-minute video released from his first training session.

Speaker 8 Casimiro and Rashford posted afterwards about how well it had gone. What have you made so far of everything you've seen, Barry, which is precisely nothing?

Speaker 1 Well, I haven't actually seen the training video.

Speaker 1 I don't know if there was anything revolutionary in it, but I am aware that a couple of Manchester United

Speaker 1 players

Speaker 1 said that they liked it or enjoyed it, and that has their very banal social media posts have been forensically pulled apart by various journalists

Speaker 1 towards the end of what has been, you know, not as slow a fortnight as usual on the interlol front. I did see pictures of Rubin and his staff out and about

Speaker 1 on the streets of Manchester taking in their new surroundings and they seem to be having a fun time very well wrapped up against the cold and the rain

Speaker 1 this is you know everyone will be interested to see how United line up with Amarim in charge against Ipswich who who obviously won their first game of the season just before the international break that's quite the pick-me-up for them and they're obviously managed by Kieran McKenna who has previous at Manchester United and was mentioned as a potential successor to Eric Ton Hague.

Speaker 1 So it's

Speaker 1 all very nicely poised, but I wouldn't claim to have any idea what's going to happen or how Amarim is going to

Speaker 1 pick it, who he's going to pick or how he's going to set them up. 3-4-3, presumably, because as we've been repeatedly told, that is his fixed formation.

Speaker 8 Yeah, in the video, Wilson, he had a back three of Luke Shaw, Johnny Evans, and Lenny Yorrow, with Cobby Maino and Casemiro deeper in midfield and Mason Mount ahead of them.

Speaker 8 I mean, I suppose quite a lot of players weren't there because they're internationals, but what do you think he will do?

Speaker 9 So, who was a left-wing back in the training session?

Speaker 8 Then, I'm not here to tell you those sort of details.

Speaker 1 Hang on.

Speaker 8 Malassia is what?

Speaker 8 Malassia, Tyrion Malassia.

Speaker 9 Well, I mean, if he is actually fit, then

Speaker 9 that's obviously a you know an advantage ten hog never had or very rarely had i i mean i think he will play with that back three because he always has and you you don't bring in somebody and then you know expect him to completely change his style i mean that that's sort of what ten hog did and it went quite badly wrong and then you know that's why he lost his first two games against brighton and bought and uh brentford uh was because he was trying to play his style with a squad that wasn't equipped for it so that immediately is a is a point of friction my suspicion is that they will beat Ipswich, every will get carried away.

Speaker 9 So, I've got two stats for you that I think are vaguely relevant. So, there's only been four post-Busby managers.

Speaker 9 Let's make this a question. There have been four post-Busby managers who've won their first league game in charge of Manchester United.
Okay. Everybody got very excited after all four of them.

Speaker 9 And, you know, so do you want to guess who they were?

Speaker 8 Moyes.

Speaker 9 Moyes?

Speaker 1 Mourinho.

Speaker 9 Mourinho. Did you say Ollie there, Barry? Sorry.
Yeah. Yeah.
Ollie beat Cardiff. And the other one's Dave Sexton, which is much harder.
But none of them went on really.

Speaker 9 I suppose Mourinho to an extent. So the first games, yeah, and those wins were over.

Speaker 9 Sorry, I can't remember who the sexton one was against, but Lou McCarry scored a hat-trick. And then I think Moyes beat Fulham.
Mourinho beat Bournemouth and Solcio beat Cardiff.

Speaker 9 So, you know, similar statues of side to Ipswich. Probably Ameriman will win.
Probably everyone will get carried away. This is the great new future.

Speaker 9 And we'll find out probably in May whether whether how realistic that is and the other stat he plays a back three in the last 60 years how many teams have won the top division in england playing with a back three as their default one chelsea correct under antonio conte thanks very much a nod of approval so sorry so my point there is yeah is there a reason why the back three you don't win the league yeah playing three at least you could make an argument for the early early guardiola teams that you know that because of the way they used the fullbacks that they were effectively a back three in build-up.

Speaker 6 But I'll take your point, yeah.

Speaker 9 Sure, I mean, there are, yeah, I mean, that's probably the best example.

Speaker 9 There are a couple of other examples where you can say, yeah, at certain phases, they played a back three, on certain games, they played a back three.

Speaker 9 But an obvious back three is a default, it's only contest Chelsea.

Speaker 9 I just wonder whether it's something to do with the physical demands of the Premier League mean that wing backs really struggle to cope over a full season in the Premier League.

Speaker 9 That's the only sort of theory, you're trying to work out why that might be.

Speaker 9 I also wonder if

Speaker 9 that shape that Conte played, the sort of,

Speaker 9 which wasn't dissimilar to Amerim shape, the sort of

Speaker 9 the three,

Speaker 9 well, yeah, it was a sort of 3-4-3, wasn't it? With you had Victor Moes on one side and

Speaker 9 who's on the other side?

Speaker 6 Alonso, right?

Speaker 9 Yeah, it was. Marcus Alonso, that's right, yeah, yeah.
You then had the sort of two sort of inside forwards there in Azar and

Speaker 9 oh god, behind Diego Costa.

Speaker 1 Pedri.

Speaker 9 And Pedri, yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah.
This would have been better if I'd prepared it, wouldn't it?

Speaker 1 No, Pedro. Pedro, yes, that's right, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, sorry. Should we do that again?

Speaker 8 No, no, no, because I got Pedro right.

Speaker 1 We can't erase Wilson errors from the record.

Speaker 1 It was more forgetfulness than errors. Compromise.

Speaker 8 We definitely can't now. This is the best bit so far.
Carry on.

Speaker 1 Make more errors. Come on.

Speaker 9 Getting out of in Pedro. Rattle games.

Speaker 9 In those sort of three-quarter spaces, they're hard to pick up if that's something you haven't sort of anticipated, haven't seen. And it was only nine games into the season.

Speaker 9 That might be wrong as well. A handful, about quarter of the way into the season that they switched in the middle of that Arsenal game with 3-0 down.

Speaker 1 His head's gone now.

Speaker 1 He's no confidence.

Speaker 9 It was definitely half-time in the game when they were 3-0 down to Arsenal. That is true.
Which may have been in the ninth, maybe in the 10th, may have. I think it was 9th or 10th game of the season.

Speaker 9 And then suddenly they switch, and teams can't adjust to it. And that 3-2 shape at the back

Speaker 9 is the shape, I thought trapezium is the shape that teams like to get into to stop teams countering against them.

Speaker 9 It's a shape Guardiola sides like to get into when they're in possession, to get five men, five outfield players behind the ball in that 3-2 shape.

Speaker 9 But I think that can become quite predictable and quite blockish, and you're totally reliant on the wing backs, who, as we've established, were Moses and Marcus Alonso giving you the width.

Speaker 9 And I think that became, by the following season, quite easy to counter. So that may be another reason that a back three, unless one or more of those players are happy stepping out,

Speaker 9 it means that

Speaker 9 there's a very sort of rote way of playing, and other teams can react to that. So that might be another reason why back threes have not been as effective for the top teams in the English league.

Speaker 8 Johnny, apart from becoming a trapezium at some point,

Speaker 8 what part of Reuben Amarim and Manchester United are you most interested to see?

Speaker 6 So, first of all, there is what he does at wing back, because I think in that training session, he used Anthony as a right-wing back.

Speaker 6 And if everyone's kind of assuming, well, Anthony's done at this club. And then he turns up a right-wing back in Amarim's first training session.

Speaker 6 And what Wilson was saying, that is an incredibly important role in an Amarim team. And he has previous at Sporting of converting what you would...

Speaker 6 consider wingers into wing backs and also having that slightly a slightly lopsided feel of having a one-winger and one more defensive player in those positions.

Speaker 6 So, I find it interesting to see what he does with that. And the other thing is, there doesn't really seem to be an obvious place for Rashford in this system, unless he is going to be one of the

Speaker 6 number nines competing with Hoyland and Zerxe.

Speaker 6 The way that they lined up at sporting, which you know, like that Chelsea team, actually, quite narrow, quite narrow front three.

Speaker 6 You have Mount there, you have Diallo, you have Garnacho, but is Rashford,

Speaker 6 is he going to be one of the two that are sort of slightly withdrawn wingers, or is he going to be competing for a number nine spot? Because I don't see an obvious route

Speaker 6 into this side, certainly in terms of getting regular football for Rashford, unless he is again prepared to adapt his game a little bit.

Speaker 8 Southampton played Liverpool, who are now the Bookies' favourites to win the title. Are we going a little early on Liverpool, Barry?

Speaker 8 Or they've got Man City next weekend at home after playing Real Madrid in midweek, which is a big test of their credentials. Arguably, Southampton away is not as big a test of their credentials.

Speaker 1 No, and I would be very surprised if Liverpool don't win this game quite comfortably. They have

Speaker 1 three players away in South America during the international break. So, will they start? Will they be jet lagged? Who knows? That's Darwin Noones, Alexis McAllister, and Louis Diaz, and

Speaker 1 Watara Wendo is away with Japan. Well, he's not a first-choice player anyway.
But

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm not surprised by Liverpool doing well. In our pre-season predictions, I predicted them to win the league, so I'm quite happy with the way they're going at the minute.
And I

Speaker 1 do think that the league is very much theirs to lose. I'd be astonished if they don't take three points at Southampton.

Speaker 8 Russell Martin, Wilson,

Speaker 8 said hopefully I'll be talking to you in two weeks. He's still there.
So that's good for him. If,

Speaker 8 and is it good for Southampton? I don't know.

Speaker 9 I don't know. I mean, the problem is, Southampton's squad just isn't good enough.

Speaker 9 And,

Speaker 9 you know, you can discuss style all you want. And, you know, maybe if they had a radical change of style or a new manager, maybe they would pick up

Speaker 9 slightly more points per game. But maybe they wouldn't.
I mean, the squad has been built to Russell Martin's template, so radical change probably doesn't make much sense.

Speaker 9 But I just sort of think it shows how hard it is now when teams get promoted. And so I looked

Speaker 9 from when the league went to 20 teams in, what, 96, 7 through to today,

Speaker 9 and the rolling five-year average of how many points the three promoted teams got has gone down from

Speaker 9 41 to 37. That's even before last season when they only got 22 points, which is a record low by quite a margin.

Speaker 9 But just if you look at the team that Sam came up with under Nigel Atkins in 2012, they had two futuring them

Speaker 9 in Klein and Shaw. They had Yoshida and Joseph Font as the two centre-backs, who,

Speaker 9 I mean, Yashida won 100-plus caps for Japan. Joseph Font won 50-plus caps for Portugal.

Speaker 9 They had Morgan Schneider in midfield, who couldn't quite get enough frantic team, but was clearly a very good player. They had people like Lalana, Stephen Davis, Jack Cork, Jason Punchin.

Speaker 9 They had Arta Borich and Fraser Foster at the squad as goalkeepers.

Speaker 9 It was a really much better squad than the current squad. So, of course, they did better.

Speaker 9 So, I just sort of think Southampton are doomed, and there's not really much they can do about it because their squad isn't good enough. And that's because of the

Speaker 9 partly, maybe they haven't recruited as well as, say, a Brentford or a Brighton, or gone on the mad scattergun raid that Forrest did, which they almost took the point seduction as we've got to take that if we're going to have a chance of staying up.

Speaker 9 But fundamentally, the gulf between the championship and the Premier League is just enormous and it's really hard to breach.

Speaker 8 On the subject of one of the players you mentioned, Mrs. Rushton at one point turned to me and said, why are lots of people on my Instagram saying Jimmy Puncione?

Speaker 8 Anyway, that'll do for part two. Part three we'll rattle through the rest of the Premier League games.

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Speaker 8 Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly, Leicester Chelsea.

Speaker 8 Then Michael says, if Kien and Drewsbury Hall turned up in a Leicester kit this weekend, would anybody notice, Johnny, this was your big agenda point in the group chat?

Speaker 6 Well, you know, I wanted to write about Kean and Drewsbury Hall for the weekend, and I was told, you know, have some self-respect,

Speaker 6 basically.

Speaker 6 But I do think it's a fascinating tale. You know, Chelsea signed him in the summer for, you know,

Speaker 6 25, 30 million, you know, add-ons, whatever.

Speaker 6 Very strong PSR motivations behind it, obviously. And he's just, everyone, you know, assumed he'd be a key player under Maresque's manager.
And he's just, he's just kind of disappeared.

Speaker 6 And it's a very interesting case study and just how you destinate a career. You know, Jews behall, you know, he might have been something.
He might still be something. He might not have been anything.

Speaker 6 But

Speaker 6 he's just played, I don't know, he's probably played about 70 minutes or something. Or he's played

Speaker 6 a bare minimum of football in the last few months. And it's just sad because he's at the age where he really needs minutes to develop.

Speaker 6 He's never going to get these minutes back. He's probably going to have to leave Chelsea

Speaker 6 to get some kind of minutes. He's going to have to rebuild his career again.
And

Speaker 6 this is really a kind of, I don't want to use the word tragedy, but it's a real shame on two levels. First of all, because he's...

Speaker 6 I think Brighton were in for him this summer, but obviously there's someone in his ear.

Speaker 6 He's saying, well, going to, I'm going to somehow avoid the fate that has

Speaker 6 befallen dozens and dozens of hopeful Chelsea signings in the past where you just kind of fall between the cracks.

Speaker 6 If you spend, you know, on the Chelsea, if you spend 25, 30 million pounds on a player and just don't play him, it's a total failure. There should be some kind of penalty for that.

Speaker 6 And instead, it just kind of almost sort of priced in as, well, you know, they signed four or five of them and one or two of them will come off. And just the absolute wastage of that,

Speaker 6 there just kind of has to be a better way of this thing being run.

Speaker 8 Barry, you put a photo into the WhatsApp group. Producer Joel said was like something out of either a beautiful mind or seven.

Speaker 1 Well, yes, in the interests of pedantry and to save any of our listeners the bother, I counted the number of minutes Kieran and Dewsbury Hall has played this season, and that number, not including out of time, is 583.

Speaker 1 But he's very much a second-string player, Europa League games, League Cup games, that kind of thing. He's played a couple of league games.

Speaker 8 The only other bit of news is

Speaker 8 goalkeeping coach Hilario has left Chelsea to join Thomas Tuchel in the England setup. Another foreigner.
Will he sing the anthem?

Speaker 1 That's right.

Speaker 8 Will Hilario sing the anthem? That's what I want to know. Ron Leicester, their sponsor, Barry, has gone bankrupt.

Speaker 1 Yeah, their front of shirt sponsor, BC Game, which is a community-based online cryptocurrency gaming platform of the type that

Speaker 1 Philippe regularly tuts disapprovingly about and looks down his nose upon, who also have a partnership with the Argentinian FA. They have gone bankrupt.

Speaker 1 They only signed their deal with Lester four months ago.

Speaker 1 It was at the time reported to be worth $40 million.

Speaker 1 And at the time, Lester described the partnership as one of the most valuable in the club's history. So

Speaker 1 I suspect that is no longer the case. Rain Davis who's the director of marketing and affiliate for BC Game

Speaker 1 he described BC Game as an exciting safe and responsible online gaming business so I'm sure any punters who have been left high and dry

Speaker 1 and without their winnings will be delighted to hear that.

Speaker 8 What's wrong with Walker's Crisps? Hey Lester. At the Emirates Arsenal Arsenal play Forrest.
Wilson, do you want to say anything about Arsenal or not?

Speaker 9 Well, I think this is actually a really key game for them. I mean, they've only won two of the last seven, but they looked a lot better against Chelsea with Oddgird back.

Speaker 9 I think Forrest, it'd be interesting to see what happens to them as well. Having, I mean, actually, played pretty well against Newcastle last game before the break, but lost at 3-1.

Speaker 9 Are they able to keep going, or was that just sort of an early season bubble?

Speaker 9 Um, but you know, if you feel for reasons to be positive for Arsenal, they've got Ottawa back, City have wobbled, so the City are not 10 points clear, which could have been the case.

Speaker 9 And Arsenal have had most of their difficult away fixtures so far. So, if you look at sort of big seven teams,

Speaker 9 they've got to go still to Old Trafford and Anfield, and that's it this season. So, the fixtures has been difficult for them.

Speaker 9 And I think when people are getting very excited about Liverpool, well as they've played, and this isn't meant to sort of denigrate Liverpool, but the fixture this has been quite kind for Liverpool in that when they've played big games, they've been quite spaced out, they had quite a gentle start, and I think the real test of Liverpool comes next week against City.

Speaker 9 But yeah, if Arsenal can win this,

Speaker 9 if that is then the start of a run, then they could still challenge, but they have put themselves in a difficult position.

Speaker 8 Newcastle play West Han. It's not until Monday night, Johnny, so we'll look ahead to it again on Monday.
But apparently, Junin Lok Pategui is on the brink.

Speaker 8 He's got two games to save his job and one is at St. James's Park and one is home to Arsenal.
They're quite difficult games if you're on the brink or if you even if you're not on the brink.

Speaker 8 If you're nowhere near the brink they're still difficult.

Speaker 6 Yeah and I'm always slightly you know I was slightly skeptical of these of these stories that emerge because I think what have you seen and what have you not seen in the last 10 or 11 games or over pre-season or you know working with him every day seeing how he how he works that you that you're going to learn from the next two games.

Speaker 6 You know, have you

Speaker 6 it just seems such a silly way of making what is a really, really crucial decision. Because, you know, West Ham are kind of at a bit of a crossroads now.
You know, they are,

Speaker 6 they have a bit of identity crisis, I think. I think they're not, they're still not quite sure what sort of club they want to be.

Speaker 6 And the fact that they enjoyed so much success under David Moyes has really

Speaker 6 clouded that. a little bit.
Are they going to be like a solid mid-table club that tries to make the odd dart at a couple

Speaker 6 at a cup, or they going to are they trying to be almost like a progressive project team that that wants to to challenge for the top five or six in the Premier League in the long term?

Speaker 6 I still don't think they've worked that question out. Lopotegi is one of those coaches where

Speaker 6 you could almost sell it either way. And I think a lot of the fans have not really been able to decipher what he's trying to do.
The football has not been great.

Speaker 6 I think a lot of the recruitment, you know, Tim Steiton, the new sport director, I don't think he's impressed very much at all.

Speaker 6 So I think we know all that already.

Speaker 6 I don't think the next two performances can or should tell us much more about where this regime is going because I don't see much of a long-term future in it either way.

Speaker 9 Yeah, one of Wasam's other problems is Mohamed Kudus, who is one of their best players, maybe their best player when he's playing well.

Speaker 9 I mean, he's suspended at the minute anyway because of his meltdown at Tottenham. But he's just in one of those spells where you just can't do anything right.
So

Speaker 9 Ghana had failed to qualify anyway for combinations. They They played Niger on what was it, Monday, Tuesday night? Tuesday night, I think.
And

Speaker 9 the game doesn't matter to Ghana. Niger still have a chance of ousting or finishing above Sudan.

Speaker 9 And Ghana equalised very late on. And this is a game that Ghana at home should be winning comfortably.
They score a late equaliser. Their coach runs on the pitch to celebrate.

Speaker 9 There's sort of a, oh, at least we haven't lost to Niger. Niger then immediately score in injury time.

Speaker 9 And then Ghana gets a penalty and Kudis misses.

Speaker 9 He's just having one of those spells where everything is going wrong for him. And you suspect that poor form at West Ham and poor format with Ghana are sort of

Speaker 9 locked in this sort of vicious circle and things are just getting a vicious spiral and things are just getting worse.

Speaker 1 On the plus side for West Ham, Mikel Antonio had a nice rest because he forgot his passport or lost his passport and couldn't travel to play with Jamaica.

Speaker 8 It's a good point.

Speaker 8 Tony says he's nearly 32, he's not played for 18 months and will command astronomical wages. I'd love to know how the panel think Pogba will do when West Ham sign him.
You don't know yet.

Speaker 8 Fulham play Wolves. Kenny says, what's the spread on when Raul Himeneth scores against Wolves? Particularly interested in Barry's view, as he was pretty sharp on guest the attendance last week.

Speaker 8 Don't cross the streams, Kenny. But you could see it happening, Baz, can't you?

Speaker 1 I had to write

Speaker 1 an article the other day. Just pick a team of 11 players who've sort of performed better than you you would have expected

Speaker 1 this season. And I was going to include Raul Jimenez.

Speaker 1 I can't remember if I did in the end or not, but I was looking back at since his head injury, so that was, I think, four years ago, and he hasn't actually scored that many more goals this season than he did any other season.

Speaker 1 after his return from that injury.

Speaker 1 I was a bit surprised, which is not to disparage his achievements this season because he is playing really well and it's not just just from a goal scoring point of view.

Speaker 1 Obviously it's early in the season and if he keeps up his record, I don't think he's scored for a couple of games now, but if he keeps up his record he will get you know over 20 goals this season and I don't think there's anyone out there who wouldn't be pleased for him.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I imagine

Speaker 1 yeah,

Speaker 1 where would he be on the non-celebration celebration if he were to score against Wolves? I reckon

Speaker 1 he'd give it the full gun.

Speaker 8 He's been no, I think he'd be respected

Speaker 8 personally. I think he'd be a hands-up, he'd be a hands-in-a-kid mob by his teammates, is what I think.

Speaker 1 Hopefully, we'll find out.

Speaker 8 Yeah, Bournemouth-Brighton, Villa Palace, Everton, Brentford. Anyone got any strong thoughts on those three games?

Speaker 1 Well, Bournemouth-Brighton could be a great game. I mean, two really good teams who play attractive football.

Speaker 1 Brighton, obviously, are going in on the back of their win over City. Bournemouth

Speaker 1 came out the wrong side of that humdinger at Brentford. They lost 3-2.
But yeah, I would very much like to see this game.

Speaker 8 Rob says on the last pod we did, Ian Holloway's Swindon haunting story. I get the need for a bit of light amusement.

Speaker 8 It would have been nice to hear the pod at least briefly mention Swindon at 22nd in the bottom tier of the Football League, the Club and Supporters Trust who co-own the ground or at loggerheads.

Speaker 8 It's not ideal to be in those circumstances, see a manager honing his stand-up skills on national radio chatting about ghosts. Yeah, it's a good point.

Speaker 8 And we wish you and all Swindon fans all the best, of course. Finally, this from Barnaby.
Dear Max and Barry, love the pod.

Speaker 8 Would like to request one of Barry's wedding messages, please, for my brother getting married to the love of his life, Jess, this Saturday, the 23rd of November.

Speaker 8 My brother Peter is a long-term listener based in Sydney. We've listened to the pod for many years,

Speaker 8 discussing it to the extent we've even considered doing our own podcast, Football Weekly Weekly.

Speaker 8 You could even say that Peter is something of a Rushton lifer, bliming, dating back to the Soccer AM Glory years.

Speaker 8 Of the happy couple, Barry would much prefer the bride.

Speaker 8 Jess shares his strong dislike of the English national team and almost turned to Matilda's hooliganism after the Lionesses shithouse during the Women's World Cup semi-final against Australia.

Speaker 8 That was the day my brother spinelessly renounced his British passport and joined the Matilda's movement.

Speaker 8 Although I cannot support my brother becoming an Australian, they're very much in love, so I do support the marriage. Many thanks and all the best, Barnaby.

Speaker 8 So, Peter and Jess, Barry, give it the works.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 just I have no problem with the Lionesses. I wish them well, in the same way I wish the England cricket team well.
And I don't dislike the English football team. I just like seeing them lose and

Speaker 1 would be traumatised if they won anything of significance.

Speaker 1 would imagine a wedding in Sydney, presumably that's where it is, will be a fun day out.

Speaker 1 I've only I attended a wedding in Apollo Bay in Australia once, and it was one of the better weddings I've been to. And yeah, I wish Peter and Jess every happiness in their short marriage.

Speaker 8 Thank you so much. Yeah, have a wonderful day.
Have a wonderful life. And thanks for listening.
And that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody.
Thanks, Johnny.

Speaker 1 Thanks.

Speaker 8 Thank you, Wilson. Cheers.

Speaker 9 Thank you.

Speaker 8 Thanks, Baz. Thank you.
Footmore Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Phil Maynard.

Speaker 1 This is the Guardian.