England bid farewell to Carsley … we hardly knew Lee: Football Weekly

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Capes optional.

Hello, and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly Champions of Nations League B Group 2.

You'll never see that apart from the nations who've won it before, of course.

A great second half where four people had that moment that a lot of us dreamed about doing as kids, scoring your first goal for England.

Taylor Harwood Bellis looked the happiest but lovely moments for Anthony Gordon.

Conor Gallagher and Jared Bowen, too.

Ireland wanted two penalties.

They probably should have had one when it was 0-0.

But there are interesting questions now as Lee Carsley writes his handover note for Thomas Tuchel: What to do with Harry Kane, who to play with Dude Bellingham, how on earth to work out who to pick when everyone's available.

Elsewhere, Scotland wins finally, get Croatia down to 10 men, and they eventually get a little tired.

Wales just about scrape a draw in Turkey on a weekend where I learned that Carl Darlow was Welsh.

Rabio is Ravio, gets a brace as France win in Italy, and then we'll do some EFL and discuss the new Coventry manager, which might bring us full circle back to Lee Carsley.

All that plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

On the panel today, Barry Glendenning.

Hello.

Hi, Max.

Jacob Steinberg, welcome.

Hello.

And George Ellick from Not the Top 20, how are you, George?

Good, thanks, Max.

How are you?

I'm very well.

Thanks for asking.

Let's start at Wembley then.

England 5, Ireland 0, which means England win the group, level on points with Greece, but a better head-to-head after Greece beat Finland 2-0.

Jacob, you were there.

Did you have a nice time?

We had a nice time in the second half.

The first half was the classic England stodgy fair.

It felt a bit like we were back at

the Euros last summer or that Scotland game at Euro 2020, the 0-0,

with England just playing too slowly, just lack of intensity, too safe, and kind of eventually

towards the end of half-time, the first half sort of dragged into the kind of game that Ireland wanted.

You know, Ireland was so defensive, just 10 men behind the ball, basically.

Nathan Collins playing in front of a very deep back four and just kind of blocking the the space for Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham.

And at halftime, it felt like it might end up being a goalless draw.

We were all kind of saying this feels like this is where it's heading.

And it's just that one moment from Harry Kane that just kind of

completely changes the game.

Just at a point where people were, I think he just lost the ball again before he turns and plays that pass.

And people were starting to think,

you know, was Carsley right last Thursday?

Does Kane need to be taken off?

Is this what's going to change the game for England?

And instead, he just reminds you of the quality that he's still got, despite the questions over whether he's still got the same physicality, the same pace that he had a few years ago.

And it's probably going to remain a question.

But in the end, Red Card changes everything.

And after that, England, we're always going to run away with it.

It becomes a completely different kind of evening.

But during the first half, it was pretty poor.

It's so interesting, is it?

Because that Harry Kane pass, Barry, is so good.

But he was so bad until that Harry Kane pass.

And you, you know, Barney's written a piece saying, come on, it's time now.

And I think Johnny Lou probably, I think, wrote that piece about Harry Kane quite a few years ago.

And his numbers for Bayern are so good,

but you sort of feel...

I wonder if Carsley's done Tuchel a favor by dropping him last week and now saying, look, you know, you can do it.

I think he has done him a favor by dropping him.

I don't think Tuchel would have any...

problem dropping him anyway, whether Carsley had done it or not.

I don't know what to think now because I read that Barney piece and I think Barney has written it before, you know,

it's time to move on and without Kane.

But you can't deny that that pass, which he spotted and played to inch perfect, was a game changer because it led to England's first goal and it led to Ireland being reduced to 10 men.

I read the Barney piece saying,

you know, it's time to cut Harry loose.

And then I watched

some talk post-match talk sport analysis in which it's they were saying he's answered his critics and and they weren't the only ones to say he's answered his critics so there's a strong argument to be made for both cases I suppose I would have my doubts that he would be England's first choice striker come the next World Cup I would be very surprised yeah it's interesting George afterwards Anthony Gordon said he didn't even see the pass.

He was standing right behind Harry Kane.

I don't know what he's doing

um but where do you you know if you had to make a call or is it or do we not have to be that definite you know he's still good enough to be in the squad and then just see what happens on any given game that seems to be the crux of this is that you have some people saying that he should never play you know last time i was on the pod barney was saying he should basically retire from international football or you've got people saying that he has to start i think there's a middle ground where harry kane can be used within the squad in certain games he'll be very important um you think of someone like mirror slav closer at germany who basically made a career career at the end of his international career of being a squad player who'd come off the bench when he lacked that physicality and would pick teams off late on when they were tired.

And I think Kane could do that.

But, you know, yes, his pass changed the game, but I find it very hard to believe that had Ollie Watkins started, or even Dominic Solanke started really in the first half, and who offer a pressing intensity that's completely different to Harry Kane.

I struggle to think we'd have looked as toothless as we did.

It was like we were playing without a striker.

And given that Ireland effectively played three centre-backs and then kind of two fullbacks doubling up on our wingers, We found it incredibly difficult to actually move the ball at pace and

get it into an area where Kane

would be able to get on the end of balls.

But there was one moment in particular where Anthony Gordon got down the left-hand side and cut it back into that area where Watkins scored from on in midweek.

And Kane was about three yards off, you know, behind the ball, not able to get up there with him because he lacks that intensity.

And we say that his numbers at Bayern are very good, and they are, but there's an element of the flat trap bully about it, though.

He scored four goals in the 9-2-win over Dynamo Zagreb, he scored three goals in the away win over Holston Kiel, where they won 6-1.

The games against Leverkusen in the one-all draw, he didn't score against Villa in the Champions League,

he didn't score in that one either.

You know,

he's got to be the player that comes up in big moments, and he did last night.

There's no denying that, but I thought it was very harsh on Watkins that he wasn't able to continue starting in last night's game.

And I thought at half-time, you know, I was kind of hoping that we were going to see Harry Kane taken off.

The past itself, though, we have to say, is it's not just, oh, you know, you played a good ball that changed the game.

It was an absolutely ridiculous pass.

I both the execution and the vision to see it was phenomenal.

And

one moment that, you know, basically carved open an island side that up to that point had kept us at arm's length pretty easily gets us a penalty and you know their centre back sent off and that's the catalyst for a completely different game.

So it's, you know, is it the classic good problem to have?

I'm not, I'm not sure, but it's definitely a problem for Tuchel to work out.

How do you incorporate someone who is the country's record goal scorer, who is a captain,

who comes up with moments both creatively and from a goal-scoring perspective, that can completely change and have changed the course of England games in the recent history?

But also, for the majority of the time when he's on the pitch, he's an issue.

He's a problem.

Good problem to have is an interesting phrase, Jacob, isn't it?

Because Lee Carsley's given eight players their debuts.

You know, he's discovered a human, Angel Gomez, that none of us knew existed.

Just found him.

You know, Noni Madawake has been really good the last couple of games.

So now Tuchel now has so many good problems to have.

And I don't know if that's, it feels like that is good, but I don't know if it is good.

I think it's good.

I think that one of the things for Carsley that he's spoken about quite a lot over the last week,

beyond the broad, that basic target of...

getting back into the A-League, the Nations League, is widening the talent pool because it's something that Southgate spoke about quite a lot:

the lack of English players available to him, the lack of English players playing regularly in the Premier League.

That percentage has been going down and down over the last few years.

And obviously, they've had this very good generation, but what's coming up behind it?

What's coming up behind Maguire, Stones, Walker, Harry Kane, and all those others who've been so important down the years for Southgates England, what's going to come through?

And obviously, for Carsley, he's got that long history in developmental football for England at the FA.

Obviously, taking the under-21s to the Euros win last year.

And so, part of his brief, you know, having spoken with John McDermott and the FA, was to see whether or not they could, for the next guy, have just a bigger selection pool.

And he's managed to do that pretty well.

I mean, there's an element, I guess, of

he doesn't have so much to lose.

Obviously, not qualifying

back into that top tier would have been embarrassing, but on the basis he wasn't going to be here beyond uh

beyond these beyond these camps you know he had he could try things and that's been it's it's a it's a weird dynamic with with Castley that he's this quiet guy who doesn't really seem to enjoy sitting in front of you know 50 journalists after a game and speaking and

he gets himself sort of in these tangles at times when he's talking about whether or not he wants the job or or doesn't want the job or I'd like to be back in the under-21s and then you separate that out and when it comes to his selections he's been very bold and he's taken these risks and he's tried things and he's given us a different way, a different idea maybe of the way that England could play.

So we've looked at the false nine with Dude Bellingham, which you know didn't work, but at least he's shown us that it didn't work.

And he's looked at a player, as you say, in Gomez, who is a very un-English sort of player,

you know, this small, deep-lying midfielder who just wants to pass and pass and pass.

And similarly, Curtis Jones is a little bit more tenacious and energetic, but again, a player who, you know, has his head up and is always on the half turn.

We've had fullbacks inverting in the way that we probably didn't see under Southgate and a very different kind of approach, I think, to possession, that a much kind of more, a slower way of playing really, that at times has been a little bit harder probably to make work in the

in the home games and the away games.

And I think they've been better in the away games, but they've had the control that Carthy's repeatedly spoken about that they've lacked in the very big games, most obviously against Spain and Italy in those finals that they lost, that they've basically been outplayed in midfield.

So he's given them that idea around it.

He's brought in these players who they're not as glamorous probably at the moment as the guys who weren't there over the last week, all those withdrawals, Cole Palmer, Foden, Saka, etc.

But he's shown us that these players can come in and make an impact at international level.

And as he said last night, the next camp, it's going to be very interesting to see how Tuchel does approach it, um the the that march squad it's going to be hard to get into is what castle said last night the question against that i guess the the unknown is that tuchel's on an 18-month contract and his brief very much stated by everybody is not to develop players within the english game it's not to bring through young players it's to win the world cup he said it at the unveiling last month it's to if i you know you can pretty much assume that if i don't win the world cup i won't be staying if he doesn't win the world cup maybe we'll be going into a Nations League A group with Tuchel in charge and the development will become more of an issue.

But for Tuchel, it's that question of if I need to win the World Cup and all I need, you know, that's my sole focus.

Am I going to

bring back the experienced players?

Am I going to be looking at Marcus Rashford, Mason Mount, Ben Chilwell if he gets fit as you know, a player who was very important for him at Chelsea?

Or am I going to stick with these guys like Lewis Hall who are young, intense, hungry,

most importantly, in a few cases, not injured all the time.

So

it's going to be interesting to see whether that, what Castley, the ideas that he's given to Call, whether he continues with them or if we go back to, I guess, a slightly safer, in one sense,

kind of, kind of management.

But

you might say that it's,

you know, that Castley has probably given him some very, very good options now to have.

And I think it's better that he's done it than not.

Nothing says England aren't going to win the World Cup than somebody saying, we've brought you here to win the World Cup and him saying, I'm here to win the World Cup.

I think we should say, Barry,

how, like,

the joy of all those players who scored their first goal for England.

I mean, four of them, I think Optus said, like, that hasn't happened since 1930 in one game.

But, like, the joy on their faces.

Like, it is worth remembering sometimes that, you know, these dreams are being made here.

Yeah, it is the stuff of schoolboy dreams.

And I suppose Taylor Harwood Bellis was the one that everyone was talking about because he is Roy Keene's future son-in-law.

And as Roy Keane said afterwards on ITV Commentary, that's not done and dusted yet.

Things can change very quickly in the Keene household.

But yeah, just the absolute sheer delight on his face when he scored.

Not what you expect from a centre-forward, the scoring, I mean, or central defender, the scoring, not

the joy on his face.

And you can't help but be pleased for them, I suppose.

But I don't think Tuchel will have any interest in bringing through young players.

And I think a lot of these guys could be waiting a long time for their next England appearance because, as Jacob has said, Tuchel is very much a hired gun with one job to do.

And

he won't be particularly fussed by the fact that these young players have been brought in and shown they can perform, to be fair, against very poor opposition that have been reduced to 10 men.

But, you know, they've given themselves a chance.

They've put themselves in the shop window, I suppose.

I mean, George, we mentioned this on Friday that there's the last two games, there's been such a balance, right?

And that is the interesting thing about selection.

It sort of seems to me like I don't really mind if Bellingham or Foden play in the 10.

I just don't want both of them there.

Like, like, I'd probably prefer Bellingham because he's played really well in the last two games.

I don't really mind if Saka or Madaway play, but I don't want, you know, you can only really put one of them in, and you want two central midfielders behind whoever you play in the 10.

So that 10 can be like Bellingham was in these last two games.

And hasn't also been so refreshing to play with two genuine wide players who want to get at their fullback consistently, which is something we didn't really have over the course of the Euros as well.

Like, it's amazing when you consider...

You know, I know the first half yesterday was pretty poor, but it still felt like we carried,

we understood what we were trying to do a bit better than in the Euros, where we were just coming up against a brick wall consistently and really struggling to break these teams down until there was some kind of individual brilliance to do so.

I think there are definitely a couple of players, you know, if Thomas Tuchel was watching, which, given the way that he's spoken about the job prior to him actually coming through the door in January, you know, you wouldn't bet on it.

But he,

you know, I think when he's watching Curtis Jones, who let's remember, is currently starting a midfield for the Premier League favourites in Liverpool, I find it very hard to believe that he wouldn't have watched his two performances against against Greece and Ireland and thought to himself, this is a pair that I want to work with.

The same with Lewis Hall, where I thought Hall yesterday was absolutely superb.

He looks the real deal in terms of being a left back who is really comfortable in possession, can provide a solid foundation from an attacking perspective, and is solid in his 1v1 defending.

Now, he doesn't have much competition for his place right now until Luke Shaw gets fit, if he ever gets fit.

And I'm sure Jones and Hall are two players where they probably weren't under consideration for Garrett Southgate in the summer, although, of course, Jones came into the preliminary squad.

Um, but I'd be amazed if they, you know, as long as they stay fit and are still playing for their clubs come March, if they haven't got a big chance of getting in.

And I think, in that sense,

I think it's kind of the perfect interim job from Carsley.

Like, he's he's brought some players up who've shown that they can do it, he's given Tuchel more to think about, he's kind of almost given a trial run

to certain players to show what they're what they're capable of doing.

He's in that defeat against Greece, I think he answered a few questions where some people seem to think we could just take all of our attacking talent, shove it on the pitch, take the handbrake off, and just go and play Vibes football, and that's and football's as easy as that.

It quite clearly isn't.

And,

you know, we've seen a resounding win against Ireland and a win against Greece where people might be happy to say, you know, we should be beating Greece, but Greece's record at home in recent times is incredibly strong.

And, you know, they haven't lost 3-0 at home to teams.

They've played most of the best teams in Europe.

And I think it was a 1-0 defeat against the Netherlands, a 1-0 defeat against France.

They're not a team that are easy to swat aside.

And yet we did it with basically a B team.

So,

yeah, loads to like.

And I agree.

You know, I think

the reason why football management is often so cyclical is because you get managers who get very, very wedded to certain players.

And I guess we saw that to an extent with Kazi picking most of his under-21 squad.

But I think Tuchel Cobb will come into this with fresh eyes.

And

that should mean that we don't have the kind of issues that we had in the summer where you've got, you know, Gary Southgate effectively trying to wedge certain players into its team because they're the ones he wanted to play rather than them being the best for the job.

I think what we can probably safely say now that had Anthony Gordon played on the left-hand side in the Euros, it's pretty hard not to think that he's carried more of a threat than Phil Foden did.

I think now, Max, is probably the time to address the elephant in the room, which is your scathing criticism bordering on ridicule of Jacob's

turned out to be a very perceptive piece about Lewis Hall last last week?

Well, I didn't criticise Jacob per se.

I criticised the headline which said it added intrigue and it didn't intrigue me.

That doesn't mean that I didn't think it was an excellent piece of work, Jacob, and I don't want you to feel offended.

He did, to be fair to him, Lewis Hall, he did play incredibly well.

But I don't know if I found it intriguing.

I wasn't intrigued watching him.

I was just going, there's a left back with a left foot.

That's not intriguing.

That's just what you want there, isn't it?

Well, I don't know if you think that last week that everybody was saying that Tuchel's not here, none of the players are here.

When you come away from a St George's Park

long afternoon and you're thinking, oh my God, what do we have to get into before games get to Grees and Island?

The prospect of Lewis Hall at left back could be, you know, it's something.

I was intrigued.

When you're sitting on that train back from Litchfield, Trent Valley.

Fair enough.

I mean, anything's intriguing once you've had that day, I guess, isn't it?

Interestingly,

Barney wrote about Tuchel not being there and saying, you know, what could he possibly be doing that took precedence?

All-day bottomless brunch, hair transplant recovery period, day of the jackal marathon.

Like, was the general vibe, like, why is Thomas Tuchel not here?

Do we care, Jacob?

The vibe all through the, ever since Tuchel took the job has been, why hasn't he just started from

November?

Why hasn't he just immediately come in?

And yeah,

Castley was asked after the game, wouldn't Thomas have benefited more from

being here and actually watching those players and learning something about them?

And Castley obviously didn't want to rock the boat and just butted away.

He's an elite coach, he'll be able to work it out for himself.

It's never really been adequately explained why he's not started.

There's been this, oh, he'll have to sole focus on the World Cup qualifying campaign, and

obviously we'll just let Lee.

We've been very clear that Lee's going to have the Nations League, but obviously, it's kind of been out of Tuchel's hands that he could have been just plunged into the Nations League playoff in March if they'd finished second in the group.

So, yeah, it's been a little bit strange.

And obviously, you do wonder if some of those players who pulled out last week would have been there if Tuchel had been there.

But I guess it's probably a positive that we were able to see the youngsters that Castley brought in because the seniors weren't there.

Jacob, there was an awful lot of outrage from certain quarters of the England press pack about this topic,

Tuchel's non-presence,

even going so far as to blame him for

the fact that various players hadn't turned up, even though he hasn't started the job yet.

Was that outrage genuine, or was it confected by people who were also struggling to find something interesting to write about after a long afternoon

at St.

George's Park?

I mean, I wasn't outraged.

I do think that you probably get a sense of what Tuchel is all about when he's coming into this job, that he's not just immediately starting and that it's all just about this

World Cup campaign and that he's ultimately a hired gun.

And obviously,

they've made that distinction and they've gone down that route.

And I guess

if you're disappointed about the fact they've not gone, not shown too much of a care for the pathway, then maybe

that's where people are coming from a little bit on that.

Sean says, no shots on target until the refs sent a man off.

Denied two pennos, a heap of fouls and a bunch of yellows for nothing.

The score flat as England.

Ireland are not in the same class.

We know that.

But they were genuinely robbed, Gary.

Genuinely robbed.

Look, they definitely should have had a penalty for that Marquet

shirt pull on Evan Ferguson, which dragged...

our brave boy in green to the ground.

No question about that.

That wasn't given.

I think the Kyle Walker foul on Smollick, Smodick, let's just say I've seen them given for less.

So that would have put us 2-0 up at half-time.

Let's be charitable and say 1-0 up at half-time.

Would that have changed the outcome of the game?

I don't think so, but it would have given England something to think about.

As Jacob has already sort of tacitly, or well, not implied, more or less, said,

in the first half, we dragged England down to our level, and I think that was the plan.

Dragged them down to our level and beat them with experience of being bad.

But look, the only player I think on the Ireland team would get near even that depleted squad is

Queveen Kelleher,

maybe Evan Ferguson.

Nobody else would get near it.

So I have no problem with us being beaten, but I was very disappointed with the way they just more or less gave up once England scored their second goal.

And, you know, Hymer Halgrimson said afterwards he was lost for words, and I don't think he was particularly impressed with the manner in which Ireland capitulated either.

But we're just not very good.

We don't have many good players, and

we were lucky to beat Finland, and we got hammered by England, and that's

you know a fair reflection of where we are at the moment.

But it would have been not if we had got that penalty, it would have made things a little bit more interesting.

The island press conference wasn't very angry.

The journalists weren't very angry.

They weren't bashing the manager around the head.

Is it just sort of...

I think it's just weary resignation at this stage because expectations are so low that...

But

I think this is

Hal Grimson's third window as Ireland manager.

I'm not particularly impressed.

I thought he'd be good, and I haven't been impressed with him.

And he doesn't seem to have any idea what his best team is despite his limited options when it comes to selection.

Like Finland, we beat Finland but they played through our midfield with ease in the first game of this window and

he addressed that problem by moving Nathan Collins into midfield this game playing one up front and you know it didn't work but it worked up to a point until the point where scales were sent off.

One positive for me was Festi Obasele I thought had a great game.

He was really exciting to watch.

He plays for Watford on loan from Udenese, I believe.

And

I don't see much of him on a weekly basis, but I was really, he was fun.

He was a shining light on an otherwise dark night for Irish football.

Yeah, I was just thinking, Barry, no one can say weary resignation with as much weary resignation as you can say.

Weary resignation.

And that seems like a good place to end part one.

We'll do the rest of the home nations in part two.

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Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.

It is the FSA Awards.

Your last chance to vote is today.

I better schedule some tweets and some blue skies.

Goodness.

Can you schedule blue skies?

I don't know yet.

Anyway,

search FSA Awards 2024, vote or click the link in the description in the show notes.

We are up for podcast of the year.

Many members of the Football Weekly family are nominated.

Robin Cowan, Nado Nurha, Johnny Liu, Jonathan Wilson, Women's Football Weekly.

Susie Rack as well.

I think that is it.

Anyway, George,

are you in the same category as us?

We are delighted because this is the first year where we're not up for podcast of the year against you guys, which is basically an impossible task to win because it's a public vote and this is very popular.

We are up for fan media of the year, which is really exciting with some other very good content creators.

And it's not a public vote, which means we don't have to campaign, which is also kind of welcome.

So I look forward to getting up and applauding Joel and Barry getting onto the stage, hopefully, in a couple of weeks' time.

And maybe I can with them as part of the family.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, look, your votes.

Voting matters.

Don't be complacent, everybody.

Just because we're the continuity candidate, it doesn't mean that we'll definitely win.

To Scotland,

big win over the ageing Croatians, Barry.

And they really need it.

I'm not sure they deserved it, but they've been okay in this Nations League and haven't got what they deserved.

So probably due a bit of luck.

Yeah, Scotland are currently bottom of their group, but they can still,

if they beat Poland and Portugal beat Croatia in the last round of games,

they could end up in the quarterfinal.

They could get relegated or they could end up in the relegation playoffs.

So it's very much all to play for

Scotland.

I wouldn't necessarily agree they were lucky to win this.

I thought they deserved it.

This was very much the Ben Doak show.

He tore Jean

Guardiol a new one, several new ones, tormented him throughout,

could have scored himself.

provided loads of crosses, a good pullback to Billy Gilmore, who blazed over when he should have hit the target.

He, as I say, kept taking on and beating Guardiol.

On one occasion, he forced a save out of Katarski at the near post.

And then he eventually set up the goal because he, in almost a repeat move, he

brought a save out of Katarski, who could only back the ball into the path of John McGinn, who scored.

And it was a welcome goal for John McGinn, who has not who struggled a bit in playing for Scotland of late and wasn't actually picked for this game.

He was on the bench.

He came off the bench to score.

Ben Doak, I mean,

Steve Clark, as Dower Scotsman goes, he's pretty much right up there.

But

you could see how pleased and excited he was about this performance from Doak, who is a Liverpool player, but is on loan at Middlesbrough.

And I no idea how he's getting on there, but George can probably tell me.

He's been unbelievably good.

He is, I always think with first loans, you can understand if a player he's played first team football, obviously, for Celtic and for Liverpool, but this is the first time that he's regularly starting games in kind of men's senior football.

And first loans, even with very good players, can often be a little bit underwhelming because it takes some time for players to get to grips with the physicality and the

impacts that the games have, whilst also, you know, having to settle in at a new club and other things like that.

But there's been none of that with this.

You know, know, he's settled it straight into one of the better teams in the championship.

He just loves to take on the fullback over and over again.

He's a box of tricks, loves to drop it a step over and go around the outside.

He can cut inside too.

He looks to me to be the real deal.

And I cannot imagine that he'll be playing second-tier football beyond this season.

He looks like a

massive asset for Liverpool and also clearly now for Scotland.

It's interesting what George says there because Liam DeLap is an example of a player who's I think he had three loan spells

from Man City in the championship and didn't really impress on any of them I think his last one was curtailed by injury at Hull City but you know he he's adapted to life in the Premier League very well I mean it's early days so far but

yeah so players can struggle when they they go out on loan and we're way too quick to write them off as well and people often you know they see 10 games of a 19 I mean, Denap was definitely the case with him at Stoke, where he went to Stoke with a big reputation from City, and he really struggled to show any kind of form to suggest that he would go on to be the player that he's already becoming now.

So I think we can often, with, you know, when players are coming through academies, they're often eased in very slowly.

You look at Phil Ferdinand at Man City.

It took Pep Guardiola the best part of two seasons really to integrate him into being a genuine starter consistently.

Whereas when you're a lone player, you know, if you're Middlesbrough and you're going out and getting Ben Doak, you're bringing him in in order to be someone who's going to elevate

your quality immediately.

So

there's not much patience shown to these guys, but actually, it can take a bit of time.

And if Doak's going to improve further from what we're seeing already at the moment, then he's really going to be some player.

Wales drew 0-0 away in Turkey, having already drawn 0-0 with Turkey in September, hopefully the beginning of an international stalemate that will go on forever.

Turkey, I mean, Baz, Turkey got a penalty late on, which I thought was so harsh.

And, you know, in a way, way,

it was good for Wales.

And with apologies to our, our due respect to our Turkish distance, that

UNISAG can put it wide, because I thought that was an outrageous decision.

Yeah, I mean, this was a nil-nil,

but it was quite a decent 0-0.

It was very entertaining.

Turkey

probably should have won.

easily, but their finishing was dreadful.

They had two or three guilt head chances.

They had the penalty, which hit the post when Darrello had gone the wrong way.

Wales remain unbeaten under Craig Bellamy.

They're second in their League B group, two points behind Turkey.

So they could still win it.

They certainly could go up

through a playoff.

And every reason to be cheerful for Wales, but I do think they got away with one here.

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, Jacob, he has Bellamy's such a breath of fresh air.

I don't know from you've obviously been at St George's Park probably every time he's spoken, but I love the way he talks.

Craig Bellamy has always been pretty forthright in everything he says, hasn't he, as a player and a manager.

I mean, he's, I remember him coming in because he was obviously at Burnley, so he was company's assistant at Burnley, and he came in after Chelsea, yeah, the Chelsea game last season where they drew two all and company had been sent off in the first half protesting a dodgy penalty.

And yeah, Bellamy came in afterwards, didn't really hold back, he's just very honest, and it's good to see.

I mean, you know,

he's always been pretty interesting.

I know that he's obviously got a bit of a, he's had a reputation down the years, and you know, he's probably rubbed a few people up the wrong way at times, but

he's also very interesting on football.

He's clearly got a lot of very good ideas, so it's good to see a young coach doing well because that wasn't an easy job to take over after they'd obviously not done so well in recent times.

The request is in for an Ellis James voice note on Wednesday: two ticks yet to go blue.

Interestingly, he has been on WhatsApp, so like he's seen, but he hasn't clicked on my message.

Do you see what I mean?

So, like, he was last seen today

after I sent the message, but he's yet to look at the message.

So, I don't know if that's ignoring you.

Well, I'd imagine your message came during the school run or the prep ahead of the school run, which I believe is a chaotic time in James Towers in South London.

I don't know.

I did the school run this morning and I'm here.

So did I.

There you go.

Yeah.

You both did the school run.

So you know, really, if Ellis wants to pull his finger out, he'll turn up on the pod more than just a voice.

He slagged him off.

He'll be there for the whole thing.

No?

Slagged off his work?

No.

I don't slag anything.

I just...

He hasn't called something intriguing recently, I think.

No, he's yet to...

He hasn't said anything's intriguing yet.

So, you know,

that's where I go.

That's when I go rogue, Jacob.

That's when I go absolutely rogue.

Shall I message him now saying, do you think this is intriguing?

I'll show you intriguing, James.

Anyway, yes, we'll hear from Ellis.

I'm certain on Wednesday.

And Northern Ireland's good form continued with a 2-0 win over Belarus.

Goals from Daniel Ballard and Dion Charles away at Luxembourg.

Monday evening should win their group, providing they win that.

Luxembourg have no wins.

So

all do very well for Michael O'Neill back in the fold.

A rookie says, anyone got a direct line to Philippe?

Is he okay?

Can he tell us what Rabio is?

Yeah, France beat Italy 3-1 to pip them to win that group.

Rabio scored two headers.

The second was great.

Philippe says that was one of the best meaningless matches I've ever seen in a long while.

Many and Dean, Kone, Rabio, yes, he says, Turam, all outstanding.

The others, very good too.

France topped the group thanks to this win.

Guess the talk will all be about France playing so well without Killian and Bappé,

who's not having a great time at the moment.

So, yes, yes, Jacob.

Is this intriguing?

Will this be intriguing?

This is intriguing.

The other game in that group was quite, it threw up quite a surprising result

with Israel beating Belgium.

Seeing this morning that

it was on a neutral, was it in Budapest?

It was a neutral ground.

Yeah, yeah.

And they beat them, I think, 86th-minute winner with a terrible piece of

play from the Belgian

attempting to play out from the back, got caught and Israel scored late on.

Israel still finished bottom of the group on goal difference, but level with Belgium.

I'm seeing a lot of stuff in there that the Belgian manager Tedesco is probably going to get sacked.

For that.

Yeah.

And falling out with Thibault Courtois.

This is Tedesco's big mistake, wasn't it?

So look, Spain, Portugal, Germany, and France in the finals then, which is quite a good set of four for whenever that is.

Elsewhere Erling Haaland got a hat-trick in a 5-1 over Kazakhstan.

And Sweden won their group.

A front three of Kulasevsky, Isaac, and Gokarez is quite a good one, isn't it?

And Mike says, during New Zealand's 8-1 win over Vanuatu, it dawned on me that New Zealand now have the virtual automatic qualifications sewn up for World Cup 2026 under this new expanded format.

Will anyone have ever had an easier time qualifying for World Cups?

If you like your Vanuatus, Paul Watson will be with us on Wednesday, so he can give us a deep dive into their equaliser against Chris Woods men.

And that'll do for part two.

We'll round off the pod with a bit of EFL.

Hi, it's Helen Pidd here, presenter of Today in Focus.

Whether it's crucial elections, conflict zones, or the fast-changing climate, we take you right to the heart of the story with our network of reporters from all over the world.

The Guardian doesn't have a billionaire owner, we are completely independent of corporate interests or political influence, and we're funded by readers and listeners just like you.

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Just follow the link in the episode description.

welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.

So, not a lot of EFL was happening, George.

A smattering of League One games, including an excellent point for Cambridge at home to high-flying Barnsley, to exorcise the demons of the 6-1 hammering that I was reminded about a million times.

Not that I obviously knew the score, you didn't have to keep telling me, everybody, that Peterborough smashed us.

But the Coventry sacking Mark Robbins, we haven't done a lot on it, and he'd done such a brilliant job.

Is it the outrage that I think it is?

Yeah, I'd say so.

I mean,

when you look at it from an individual job perspective, I don't think there are many better jobs that have taken place in this country in my lifetime, frankly.

You know, Mark Robbins took over a side who were destined for relegation into League Two.

That very season, he won what was, you know, the EFL Trophy and whatever guys it was back then.

in their relegation season, then took them up through League Two into League One, through League One into the Championship.

And since they've been in the Championship, they lost two pretty important penalty shootouts.

One was in the playoff final against Luton, and one was in the FA Cup semi-final against Manchester United last season.

Like, to take over a club heading to the basement of English football or of the EFL and then be sacked,

what, seven seasons later, after delivering so many great days and good moments off the back of what has been a fairly underwhelming two or three months seems incredibly harsh.

Like, I'm generally, you know, when fans look at managers' jobs, looking at a league table and say that it's unfair or whatever, I kind of always counterbalance that by saying, well, you know, there are mitigating circumstances at play.

We can't always judge what an owner's doing purely based on a league table.

But in this case, to not give Robbins the opportunity to turn it around seemed incredibly harsh.

There was a big moment in the summer where Adie Vivesh, who'd been his assistant manager throughout the...

Pierce tenure there, left the club in the summer.

And that led to a lot of questions from the fans as to what had happened there.

A lot of questions about Doug King, their new or relatively new owner.

And Doug King did something that we never really see clubs do, where he called the fans for him off the back of the decision that was made.

And rather than it being any kind of PR puff thanking Mark Robbins for the job he had done, basically came out swinging.

And he said that the reason Vivech had left in the summer was because he and Robbins had fallen out and Robbins had insisted that

he was sacked and

that that upset him.

And that seemed to change the way that a lot of Coventry fans felt about the decision itself.

Albeit, I still think that the performances that we'd seen from Coventry, as bad as they had had been early in the campaign, he was sacked off the back of a 2-1 defeat at home to Derby, where they were by far the better team.

And prior to that, had gone to Middlesbrough and beaten them 3-0 and beaten Luton 3-2 the game before.

It felt unbelievably harsh timing, especially with the game away at Sunderland coming up just a couple of days later before the international break.

So, yeah, I think it's a pretty crazy decision.

All eyes on who they're hired next

with some interesting names being linked to the post.

Do we know why Mark Robbins and A.D.

Vivash fell out?

Do we have that intel?

So it seems to be the case that A.D.

Vivash said in an interview in the local press that Mark Robbins was hard to work with.

And Mark Robbins

proved it to be true by saying, well, if you think that's the case, then you can leave.

Seems a bit petty, doesn't it?

I mean, that seems a bit like...

Yeah.

Yes.

Well, especially when you've achieved so much together.

But you can't see Tom in print.

Surely you'd ring him up and go, did you, like, was that jokey?

I mean, Barry took it very personally when I said if if i lived his life i'd be dead so mate you know i don't know

just seems like surely just have a chat if you're getting on so well the thing is but the the way to you know if mark robbins called a fans forum tomorrow and got 200 coventry fans in a room and gave his side of the story i'm sure it would have been very different you know we're only getting one side from the owner who's trying to you know win favor from a fan base who

I think they'd have preferred to build a statue of Mark Robbins rather than sack him, quite frankly, when the announcement came out.

Is there an element where it's a little bit similar to Luton with Rob Edwards, where obviously he's taken up a team?

I mean, he obviously got them up and nobody expected that to happen.

And then they did quite well last season, obviously go down, and now they're struggling again.

And people are talking about, you know, is this, you know,

do you need a change there?

And whether or not it's just kind of a kind of fatigue that takes over, a kind of you know, motivation issues because you've had those highs and then you're back in and you go, well, okay, what do we achieve now?

Similarly with Coventry, you know, you've had the two defeats that you talk about over the last couple of seasons, which I guess can maybe, I don't know, hit the just the mentality and

dent that kind of

feeling that's there and make it difficult to go again.

Yeah, for sure.

And there's something to, I mean, especially with what you say there at Luton, where I went to Luton to Oxford to a couple of weeks ago in the away end, and I couldn't believe how flat Kenilworth Road was.

I haven't been there so many times, it's all normally, you know, the archetypal tough place to go.

Whereas it felt like quite an easy place to go that night.

And I spoke to a friend of mine, who's Luton fan after the game, and he said, you know, frankly, when you've last season, you've gone toe-to-toe and done very well against Manchester City, Arsenal, and Liverpool.

Then you've got to get up for a Tuesday night home to Oxford.

It doesn't really quite kind of hit the same.

And that, I guess, there is an element of that with Luton.

I mean, with Coventry,

the difficulty there is they've been...

so close to returning to the Premier League.

You know, they're a club who believe they should be in the Premier League, who've dropped away so far away from it and got so close with that penalty shootout defeat

that you felt there was no reason really for the momentum to stop.

And I'm pretty convinced that had Mark Robbins been given time, he would have maintained the level.

But

if the relationship between the owner and the manager becomes untenable, then I guess things have to change.

And

that's what they've decided to do.

Lee Carsley, Rude Rennesteroy, and Frank Lampard among the favourites.

So when do you think Lampard?

When will Lampard be unveiled?

Relatively soon, I think, by the sounds of things.

Yeah, it sounds like, I mean, really?

Yeah, I mean, the reports this morning, it's been reported

by Sky in Germany, I think, that the Lampard's in advance talks to take over there.

Doug King was asked about this in the fans forum, and with a wry smile, he kind of admitted that he was

one of the candidates.

You know, I think Lampard deserves another opportunity at championship level.

You know, at Derby, he beat BLS's leads over two legs in the playoff semifinal.

Yes, he had the likes of Tamori and

Mason Mason Mountain in that side, but maybe if you hire Frank Lampard as manager, you do just get to take two or three of Chelsea's best young players on loan, which in itself is a fairly positive thing.

Obviously, Chelsea times two and Everton didn't go to plan, but I think they're mitigating factors there.

I'm not saying I think he's necessarily good, and personally, I think swapping Mark Robbins for Frank Lampard would be just a frankly ridiculous decision to make on paper, but I wouldn't write him off quite yet.

He kind of has to give Frank Lampard the job now because saying that Lampard had had applied for it publicly is outrageous yeah you know you can't say that it's just so unprofessional i've applied for match of the day and what's you know yeah but it's it's fine for you to say you've applied for it it's not fine for the head of bbc spore to come to say that you've applied for it without your permission i think he hinted that he'd applied rather than saying it outright but uh and there was also there's an amazing great social media storm in Coventry on, I think it was Friday night, where Frank Lampard posted a photo of him in Westminster Cathedral for for some reason, and he was holding a t-shirt that was light blue, and you had loads of Coventry fans bringing up the Coventry kit and the light blue t-shirt, wondering if he was holding a Coventry shirt, as if that would be some sign because he's going to take over as manager.

He took a football shirt to church with him one evening.

Right.

I mean, it all depends on how well he gets on with A.D.

Vivash.

That's the key to all of this.

Well, they'd have worked together at Chelsea.

Right.

So he'll know.

I mean, A.D.

will know if Frank is hard to work with.

You wanted to mention MK Dons.

Producer Joel wanted to mention Scott Lindsay,

their manager, who has the most Kent career, football career imaginable.

And he sent me the Wikipedia of Scott Lindsay's football career.

Gillingham, Dover, Sittingbourne, Ashford, Canvey, Gravesend and North Fleet, Welling, Folkestone and Victor, Maidston, Sittingbourne, Folkestone.

Again, I mean, Canvey Island is in Essex.

But that is.

Has anyone played for more teams than the

problem?

Where's Bromley?

Whitstable Athletic or whoever they are?

Where's, you know, anyway.

Anyway, MK Dons, what's interesting about them?

Well, they were

on last season under Mike Williamson, they had an amazing run to the playoff semi-final where they were humbled by Scott Lindsay's Crawley, absolutely walloped over the two legs.

And they reacted to that by signing Crawley's best player, Liam Kelly.

They then reacted to that after a poor start to the season with Mike Williamson choosing to move to Carlisle by hiring the manager who oversaw that.

And I think I'm right in saying that they've got the second most points in League Two since

Scott Lindsay took over.

You know, he decided to move on from League One, Crawley, and move down a league to League Two.

They were bought by a Q80 businessman in the summer.

So I think financially they're going to be a powerhouse now in League Two.

And they've got Scott Hogan in, who I think is a really smart signing, someone who he might not still be a championship level striker, but he scored a lot of goals at this level back.

back when he was coming up through the ranks at Rochdale and then at Brentford's and

he's, you know, for a side that created a lot of chance, I think he'll score a lot of goals.

They were 2-0 down against Cheltenham after 30 minutes on Saturday, came back to win it 3-2.

That's their third consecutive comeback win.

And I think they're a team who, despite the fact that they consistently are beaten by AFC Wimbledon when they come up against each other in League and Cup,

they look like they're a team who are in what looks like a very strong renewal of League 2.

We have to say, Port Vale looking strong, Warsaw looking strong, crew after a poor start looking very good as well.

But MK Dons are marching their way towards the top of the table.

Oh, and in League One, Stockport beat Wrexham 1-0.

And Stockport, a good side as well.

I saw them defeat us quite comfortably in the early game of the season.

So that's not a, you know, they're both going well, those sides, aren't they?

But halting Wrexham's sort of automatic ride to second behind Birmingham in League One.

For sure, although Wickham fans will tell you that it's there, that's their place to produce.

Wickham obviously beat Stockport 5-0 a couple of weeks ago at Stockport.

But they bounced back from that with a 5-0 win over Bolton and now 1-0 win over Wrexham.

These two sides have obviously come up from National League and then

through League Two and are now going toe-to-toe in League One.

Stockport by far the better team within the game.

Wrexham struggling away from home to kind of create much of note.

But the goal of the, maybe the goal of the weekend, but certainly the goal of the day in League One was from Louis Barry to win this game, a player who thrived last season on loan at League Two Stockport.

They loaned him, Asanville loaned him back out there to Dave Challoner.

You would think that if it wasn't to Stockport, he probably would have got a championship loan because he's looking too good for League One now as well.

And I think if Stockport are to challenge for the top six, which I imagine they will do, Barry will play a huge part in that.

Jacob, finally, West Ham with your West Ham hat on.

How intriguing are you finding the Lopotegui era?

Not very intriguing at all.

It's

pretty boring so far.

Well, the football's pretty boring, apart from when they're being run through by opposition midfield, basically, and

in that sense, they can make a game quite entertaining, like again away at Tottenham when they were completely overpowered by Saar and Kudasevsky and all the others.

It's been pretty underwhelming so far after a lot of signings coming in in the summer, a lot of money spent by overseen by

the

new technical director, Tim Stikdon, who

certainly, you know, he's done a

good reputation built up on on social media I think it seems since he since he came in in in 2023 and whether that actually stands up to any real scrutiny I'm not so sure given the business that they've done in the last couple of windows

and the football that they're playing obviously Stipedon it's not a big secret that he fell out with David Moyes in Moyes' final year at West Ham and the change was always likely but the change that they've made in bringing bringing in Lopotegghi wasn't ever really too sure about it,

given something, you know, just given really his,

I think that he's got a very good CV at first glance, working at Real Madrid, working at Spain and winning Europa League at Sevilla.

But I think if you sort of interrogate it a little bit more, I'm not sure how much it stands up.

And yeah,

it's been pretty poor so far and he's under a lot of pressure.

They play Newcastle away next Monday.

You would expect them to lose that and then after that it's Arsenal at home 5.30 on the 30th of November followed by two winnable games if you want to call them that given their form at the moment.

They've famously always been resistant to making quick changes under this ownership and so obviously I think that under a different kind of ownership maybe you would have seen a change already Lopotegi going but they they haven't done that so far they've managed managed to because mainly because Manchester United's ineptitude and the refereeing ineptitude in that game avoid what should have been a really humiliating defeat a couple of weeks ago.

Instead it was Ten Hagu goes.

And so he's just clung on.

But they've had the international break now

and

was that maybe the time to do it?

They didn't lose that game against Everton, so he sort of just clings on a little bit more, gets a bit more time.

But I wouldn't be surprised if they're just looking at what's out there now, they've used these two weeks to have a sense of what they might be able to bring in.

Problem I think is probably for a lot of clubs

is that the managers who aren't in work at the moment,

it's not necessarily too attractive.

It's hard to work out exactly who you might bring in.

I think that might apply to a few clubs who might be thinking about making a change.

You might think, well, if you're not going to go to another club and pay the buyout for their manager, who do you appoint?

You know, there's Terzich's out there after leaving Dortmund.

xavi i i'm not sure i'm not sure whether he wants to work at west ham for uh whether he would even be that good graeme potter but they've never seemed um he's he's obviously been linked with a lot of jobs since leaving chelsea and has for a number of reasons not got or not wanted to take them and they've never seemed particularly hot on potter anyway so i feel like it's something that's just going to to limp on and if there's no massive improvement before christmas then i wouldn't be surprised to see a change all right well that'll do for today thanks everybody thanks barry Thank you.

Thank you George.

Thanks Max.

Cheers Jacob.

Thank you.

Thanks both of you for doing the school run and then turning up here.

See what see what Ellis does on Wednesday.

Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove.

Our executive producer is Danielle Stephen.

This is The Guardian.